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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board => Topic started by: Cristian Good on June 24, 2014, 01:14:34 PM
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Hey guys,
I'm a little bit new here so I'm not exactly sure where to post this but I was having some questions on kit compression and gate settings, specifically the snare. I have an 01v96i which I know is pretty small scale but it works for what I need it for. The snare is a deeper snare and I'm using 2 Shure beta 98h/c for the top and the bottom. I have the phase on the bottom reversed. Each mic is about and inch away from their respective head.
The biggest problem I'm having is that when the kit player plays a rimshot I get a nice loud crack, which is awesome. However when he plays just a regular note I can't hear it so I have to turn it up and then when there's a rimshot it sounds like a gunshot. Any way to help fix this?
To be honest I will take any advice I can get but I'm really curious on numbers. I've already read a lot of articles about how to do it but would some of you guys be willing to give away actual numbers and settings that work for you? That would be great so I could try a variety. Also an explanation behind those numbers would be awesome. However I will take any advice I can get. I'm open to learning!!! Thanks!!!
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Hey guys,
I'm a little bit new here so I'm not exactly sure where to post this but I was having some questions on kit compression and gate settings, specifically the snare. I have an 01v96i which I know is pretty small scale but it works for what I need it for. The snare is a deeper snare and I'm using 2 Shure beta 98h/c for the top and the bottom. I have the phase on the bottom reversed. Each mic is about and inch away from their respective head.
The biggest problem I'm having is that when the kit player plays a rimshot I get a nice loud crack, which is awesome. However when he plays just a regular note I can't hear it so I have to turn it up and then when there's a rimshot it sounds like a gunshot. Any way to help fix this?
To be honest I will take any advice I can get but I'm really curious on numbers. I've already read a lot of articles about how to do it but would some of you guys be willing to give away actual numbers and settings that work for you? That would be great so I could try a variety. Also an explanation behind those numbers would be awesome. However I will take any advice I can get. I'm open to learning!!! Thanks!!!
You'd need a really fast limiter/compressor to fix this and I'm not sure you'd be 100% happy with the result. I presume the problem is with the top mic? Move it away from where the drummer hits the rim.
What did the drummer say when you talked to him about this?
As the mixerperson, it's our job to ride levels when the 'artiste' is unable to. I understand why you want to automate the process (I use compression on snare drums, but usually because the snare hits are LOUD compared to the rim shot), but sometimes it's simpler to use your fingers.
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Hey guys,
I'm a little bit new here so I'm not exactly sure where to post this but I was having some questions on kit compression and gate settings, specifically the snare. I have an 01v96i which I know is pretty small scale but it works for what I need it for. The snare is a deeper snare and I'm using 2 Shure beta 98h/c for the top and the bottom. I have the phase on the bottom reversed. Each mic is about and inch away from their respective head.
The biggest problem I'm having is that when the kit player plays a rimshot I get a nice loud crack, which is awesome. However when he plays just a regular note I can't hear it so I have to turn it up and then when there's a rimshot it sounds like a gunshot. Any way to help fix this?
To be honest I will take any advice I can get but I'm really curious on numbers. I've already read a lot of articles about how to do it but would some of you guys be willing to give away actual numbers and settings that work for you? That would be great so I could try a variety. Also an explanation behind those numbers would be awesome. However I will take any advice I can get. I'm open to learning!!! Thanks!!!
I usually play around 9db of gain reduction, depending on the drummer and material. Sometimes just 6db is enough.
If you have read some material and already know how it works, then I'd recommend practicing with some tracks at home to get a feel of what the gate does and how it affects the sound. Same for the compressor.
Or if you have some editing software and a couple of speakers you could practice with that for hours. The purpose would be to train your ears. Just remmember that too much gain in a live situation can create feedback. But I don't think that's gonna be a problem, I mean you've already mentioned that you can bring the snare level up without a problem and (no feedback) the only problem was the rim shot (still no feedback).
Just practice to get a nice sound, and make it sound natural.
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Hey guys,
I'm a little bit new here so I'm not exactly sure where to post this but I was having some questions on kit compression and gate settings, specifically the snare. I have an 01v96i which I know is pretty small scale but it works for what I need it for. The snare is a deeper snare and I'm using 2 Shure beta 98h/c for the top and the bottom. I have the phase on the bottom reversed. Each mic is about and inch away from their respective head.
The biggest problem I'm having is that when the kit player plays a rimshot I get a nice loud crack, which is awesome. However when he plays just a regular note I can't hear it so I have to turn it up and then when there's a rimshot it sounds like a gunshot. Any way to help fix this?
To be honest I will take any advice I can get but I'm really curious on numbers. I've already read a lot of articles about how to do it but would some of you guys be willing to give away actual numbers and settings that work for you? That would be great so I could try a variety. Also an explanation behind those numbers would be awesome. However I will take any advice I can get. I'm open to learning!!! Thanks!!!
Compression, gating, and numbers are not the right places to start. I'll bet you this is what's happening: The rimshot is picked up almost all by the top mic. A full hit is picked up more equally by both mics, leading to interaction between the mics. Contrary to the popular canard, simply reversing the polarity on the bottom mic isn't a guaranteed fix for this. The result is a very complex comb filter. Try the polarity on the bottom mic both ways.
Mute the bottom mic. How does the snare drum sound now? Sometimes one mic on top is all you need. Does the full hit volume compete better with the rimshot now? If it doesn't, move the top mic away from the point on the rim where the rimshot occurs.
If the sound of the top mic alone isn't giving you enough of that sizzle, bring the bottom back in. Usually it doesn't need to be as loud as the top. Since you're only looking for high end out of this mic, you can high-pass the crap out of it, at least 4-500 Hz or even higher. Turn the high pass up until you feel like the bottom mic is no longer messing with the "body" of the top mic, continuing to flip the polarity back and forth.
I don't believe in "magic numbers." Learn how to f :) :)k around with it until it sounds right and you'll never need to remember any numbers. ;D
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Before you go crazy with gates and compressors, let's back up just a bit. I didn't recognize the mic you're using as one I would use for a snare so I did a little research.
Shure doesn't recommend the 98H/C for use with drums, they recommend this nice little clip on mic for just what I've used it for once or twice in the past. They recommend it for BRASS instruments, hence the clip on and flex feature. Please run a test with a mic on a boom just off the back edge of the snare rim with the mic located at an angle and about 2-3 inches above the snare using an SM-57, Heil PR-22. Don't mic the bottom of the snare, and see if that doesn't cure your problem. Keep in mind the mic you use will have to have good rear rejection characteristics or an excess of cymbals may bleed into the mic. Let us know how you make out.
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mic on a boom just off the back edge of the snare rim with the mic located at an angle and about 2-3 inches above the snare using an SM-57, Heil PR-22. Don't mic the bottom of the snare
Bingo!
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Compression, gating, and numbers are not the right places to start. I'll bet you this is what's happening: The rimshot is picked up almost all by the top mic. A full hit is picked up more equally by both mics, leading to interaction between the mics. Contrary to the popular canard, simply reversing the polarity on the bottom mic isn't a guaranteed fix for this. The result is a very complex comb filter. Try the polarity on the bottom mic both ways.
Mute the bottom mic. How does the snare drum sound now? Sometimes one mic on top is all you need. Does the full hit volume compete better with the rimshot now? If it doesn't, move the top mic away from the point on the rim where the rimshot occurs.
If the sound of the top mic alone isn't giving you enough of that sizzle, bring the bottom back in. Usually it doesn't need to be as loud as the top. Since you're only looking for high end out of this mic, you can high-pass the crap out of it, at least 4-500 Hz or even higher. Turn the high pass up until you feel like the bottom mic is no longer messing with the "body" of the top mic, continuing to flip the polarity back and forth.
I don't believe in "magic numbers." Learn how to f :) :)k around with it until it sounds right and you'll never need to remember any numbers. ;D
I think this, Craig. I think your observation about the snare bottom is a likely suspect.
To integrate Bob L's comments - I've been known to mic the snare SHELL (or at least it looks like that's what I'm doing) because the position gives me the blend to head and snares sound I want. It's all about the ears (thank you, Sir George Martin) and in this case the microphone is the ear. If it isn't hearing what you want, move it to where it does. If there's a cancellation, turn off mics until you find the offender(s) and then experiment to find better locations.
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Before you go crazy with gates and compressors, let's back up just a bit. I didn't recognize the mic you're using as one I would use for a snare so I did a little research.
Shure doesn't recommend the 98H/C for use with drums, they recommend this nice little clip on mic for just what I've used it for once or twice in the past. They recommend it for BRASS instruments, hence the clip on and flex feature. Please run a test with a mic on a boom just off the back edge of the snare rim with the mic located at an angle and about 2-3 inches above the snare using an SM-57, Heil PR-22. Don't mic the bottom of the snare, and see if that doesn't cure your problem. Keep in mind the mic you use will have to have good rear rejection characteristics or an excess of cymbals may bleed into the mic. Let us know how you make out.
Shure does recommend the Beta 98H/C for drums see the below quote from Shures web site.
The BETA®98H/C and the wireless version WB98H/C are premium cardioid condenser instrument microphones that clamp onto the bell of wind instruments or onto the rim of percussion instruments. The integrated gooseneck and ratcheting swivel joint allows the mic to be easily positioned and secured, and an isolation shock-mount reduces the transmission of instrument 'key noise' and other mechanical noise. A gooseneck angle brace is included to provide better retention of the microphone placement during more active performances.
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Shure does recommend the Beta 98H/C for drums see the below quote from Shures web site.
The BETA®98H/C and the wireless version WB98H/C are premium cardioid condenser instrument microphones that clamp onto the bell of wind instruments or onto the rim of percussion instruments. The integrated gooseneck and ratcheting swivel joint allows the mic to be easily positioned and secured, and an isolation shock-mount reduces the transmission of instrument 'key noise' and other mechanical noise. A gooseneck angle brace is included to provide better retention of the microphone placement during more active performances.
Percussion, yes.
Snare is "special", as you need to merge the sounds from both heads.
Personally, I'm a little old-school. I still use the ND/408, about 3" above the top rim, 2" away from the drum, and angled towards the rim on the oposite side. Adjust to taste. I get rimshots nicely, not overpowered, and the snares are always there.
If the drum is deeper than the "standard", I'll throw a 57 on the bottom to make sure the snares don't dissapear. I'll rig it, but not use it unless I need to. (I hate gong on stage once the show starts)
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Shure does recommend the Beta 98H/C for drums see the below quote from Shures web site.
The BETA®98H/C and the wireless version WB98H/C are premium cardioid condenser instrument microphones that clamp onto the bell of wind instruments or onto the rim of percussion instruments. The integrated gooseneck and ratcheting swivel joint allows the mic to be easily positioned and secured, and an isolation shock-mount reduces the transmission of instrument 'key noise' and other mechanical noise. A gooseneck angle brace is included to provide better retention of the microphone placement during more active performances.
Kevin,
I agree that it promotes the mic for drums in it's ad, but I believe that to be based on it's ability to clamp on to the rim and nothing more. Sales speak as we say here. In other Shure literature, and when speaking with Shure, and based on my limited use of the mic, I base my statements on the list at the link below.
http://shure.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/3703 (http://shure.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/3703)
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Kevin,
I agree that it promotes the mic for drums in it's ad, but I believe that to be based on it's ability to clamp on to the rim and nothing more. Sales speak as we say here. In other Shure literature, and when speaking with Shure, and based on my limited use of the mic, I base my statements on the list at the link below.
http://shure.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/3703 (http://shure.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/3703)
I used to use the SM98 all the time on drums and now we use the Beta98A on drums. I have no experience with the 98H/C, it looks a lot different then the Beta 98A.
I was quoting Shure web site. The link you posted doesn’t say not to use it for percussion and the description from Shure that I quoted does list percussion and wind instruments as recommended uses. This doesn’t mean that everyone is going to like a particular mic for a manufacturers recommended usage. There have been plenty of mics that I haven’t liked for a particular use that other people highly recommend. Sometimes I think we need to explain better why we are recommending something thus giving the reader more information so they can make an educated decision.
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Before you go crazy with gates and compressors, let's back up just a bit. I didn't recognize the mic you're using as one I would use for a snare so I did a little research.
Shure doesn't recommend the 98H/C for use with drums, they recommend this nice little clip on mic for just what I've used it for once or twice in the past. They recommend it for BRASS instruments, hence the clip on and flex feature. Please run a test with a mic on a boom just off the back edge of the snare rim with the mic located at an angle and about 2-3 inches above the snare using an SM-57, Heil PR-22. Don't mic the bottom of the snare, and see if that doesn't cure your problem. Keep in mind the mic you use will have to have good rear rejection characteristics or an excess of cymbals may bleed into the mic. Let us know how you make out.
This was my thought exactly, condensers are not always a good mic for a snare and having a look at the specs for this mic I would also recommend switching to a 57 or a Beta 56A or one of my fave's an Audix i5.......if you specificaly want to stay with a condenser then look for something that is designed for drums.
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I used to use the SM98 all the time on drums and now we use the Beta98A on drums. I have no experience with the 98H/C, it looks a lot different then the Beta 98A.
I was quoting Shure web site. The link you posted doesn’t say not to use it for percussion and the description from Shure that I quoted does list percussion and wind instruments as recommended uses. This doesn’t mean that everyone is going to like a particular mic for a manufacturers recommended usage. There have been plenty of mics that I haven’t liked for a particular use that other people highly recommend. Sometimes I think we need to explain better why we are recommending something thus giving the reader more information so they can make an educated decision.
I couldn't agree more.
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kind of a odd question, but how much do you know about drums? have you ever played drums or anything? just curious mostly. are you having the problem of not hearing the softer hits at all, or are they just quieter? im a foh guy and ive been playing drums for 15 some years also. if you can still hear the loud hits and the soft hits, it might not be a bad thing. good drummers have dynamics, and hopefully they have good dynamics with the band. the fluctuation in volume can be a ok thing at timnes. just my two cents :) i love when we talk drums anything on here! ha
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I use the Beta 98amp on snare. I also have the H/C but thought the only difference was the clip on the H/C for horns and the transformer is seperate??
Shure does recommend the Beta 98amp on snares and toms and I use them on both. Never had any problems..
Here are a few links that seem to support they are the same or very similar.
98 H/C
http://www.shure.eu/products/microphones/beta_98h_c Notice it does include snares
http://www.shure.eu/products/microphones/beta_98amp-c This is what I am using
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYbriFbi0eA Shootout of 57 vs 98
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Consider all your drum mics. What other mics might be opening up during the rim-shot that you hear so clearly? Are your Tom Tom mics opening? Perhaps their thresholds are too low. Consider patching your overheads into additional input channels, and running them full-range, with no gates and only an upper-limiter on them. Mix them in when the drummer is playing softly and mix them out when the music is at full-bore loudness. You could also do that with the snare mic. Also consider the compression on your snare. Is your attack time in a reasonable range? A typical snare hit only lasts 20-30 milliseconds. is your attack time longer than that? If so your compressor is not really doing much.
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I agree with Tim. Put a single mic a little off the head, and between the top & bottom. I get a lot of crap about doing it that way, but it does a nice job. Sm 98s are fabulous tom mics, I used them exclusively until all 10 of ours were stolen at a gig. However, Id never put a fragile expensive mic near a snare drum... Beta 57s seem to hold up very nicely. If your still having dynamics problems, try a peakstop limiter just above where the snare hit comes in. Good Luck!
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I've a client that got a special deal with Shure for Beta 98's, he uses them of batteria drums for a samba band. Having used the 98's in on kits over the years, they aren't my favourite drum mics, particularly for snares, however, I've gotten useable results from them. As mentioned above, position is a big thing with drum mics and sensible use of fast compression can help, however, do consider that it might well be a case of an average drummer who doesn't hit consistently. I'm not a fan of the "rimshot" as a regular, offbeat, stroke, often, I find, those that use it like this are compensating for a lack of weight in their sound rather than an additional colour. If they rimshot regularly on certain songs and not on others, that's for us as engineers to compensate for. If it's a question of "hit and miss" playing, compress fast and deep, don't beat yourself up, and accept that you can't always polish a turd.
All the above being said is assuming that when you are talking about rimshot's you mean that, not side-stick as another poster alluded to earlier in the thread.
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If the problem is the difference in level between regular shots and rim shots, that sounds to me like the problem is an inexperienced drummer. In my experience a good/experience drummer will not have a problematic difference in level between these, but rather a slight difference in level and still a lot of difference in sound. It shouldn't cause problems.
However, with less experienced drummers, uncontrolable dynamics is a classic hallmark. On all drums, but especially kick and snare. When everything is dialed in to sound just right on one type of hit, the other will be way off in some direction. The classic place this happens is approaching and during fills, when the drummer gets carried away and loses control.