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Title: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Tommy Peel on February 09, 2013, 05:15:54 PM
I’ve posted a little bit about my bands monitor situation but I’m wanting to get some opinions about what the best move for us is. We are currently using 3 small guitar and keyboard amps as monitors; these are fed from 2 of the auxes on our Mackie Onyx 1640 through a Mackie headphone amp(which was a freebie thrown in with our mixer) that has balanced inputs. We currently have a 16x4 100ft snake that is on indefinite loan from a friend and we run our mains in stereo which leaves us 2 returns for monitors; we, on occasion, use all 16 of the sends for inputs. I’m planning to get a couple of 100ft xlr cables so I can get 4 monitor mixes to stage as this is much cheaper than getting a bigger snake. We are a full worship band doing fairly loud contemporary music; we use acoustic drums that are usually mic’d up. We have to assemble and tear down our system, except for the main speakers, every week for our Tuesday night service. We also occasionally do youth rallies(or similar events) at other locations. It’s worth noting that the band members regularly switch instruments(2 or 3 of them can play anything on the stage) sometimes during the service/set.

We have talked about getting some powered wedges(if new we’ll get some Alto SXM112As(http://amzn.to/WYFFqS (http://amzn.to/WYFFqS)); if used, whatever is decent that we find on CL). That said I don’t like the idea of getting wedges because we normally play on a small stage and I think that we would end up with too much stage volume.

We can’t afford to get wireless IEMs(unless those $200 Galaxy Audio setups(http://bit.ly/151EsFD (http://bit.ly/151EsFD)) on Musicians Friend are any good, which I doubt) so I’m trying to figure out a budget wired setup. I’ve had a couple of the band members try out using our HP amp with some inexpensive(but much better than the typical “Apple” earbuds) earbuds that provide some decent isolation. The biggest complaint I had about the setup I tried was that is sounded like they were in a can; probably due to it being a mono mix. I don’t see how, with our current setup, I can get stereo mixes from the mixer. I’m thinking about getting one of these Behringer Monitor Mixers(http://amzn.to/WYFz2k (http://amzn.to/WYFz2k)) for each band member. I can then setup some ambient mics plugged into my M-Audio Audio Buddy dual mic preamp. The preamps would be connected to the right and left inputs on my HP amp; the HP amp would provide a stereo ambient mix to each personal mixer. The monitor mixes from FOH would be sent to the mic input on each personal mixer; with this setup each musician could dial in how much of each he/she needs. I’m hoping that this will reduce the “feeling like I’m in a can” complaints.

Which setup sounds like the best option, IEMs or wedges? What are the cheapest IEM headphones that are good enough to use(universal fit)? Is there a better setup than what I’m proposing that can get the job done for a similar amount of money? What type of mic make the best ambient mic? I think we are looking to spend around $600 right now(which I realize will only get us 2 wedges). We currently don’t have any GEQ for monitors(or mains) but monitor feedback(or main feedback) hasn’t been too much of a problem so far so I’m not too worried about the lack of EQ at the moment. If our band starts growing and we have the means we may end up going to a digital board in the next few years so I hate to buy a bunch of outboard gear now if I can avoid it(this also has kept us from wanting to upgrade our snake).

Sorry for writing a book, but I wanted to provide as much info as possible.


Thanks for the help,
Tommy Peel
Title: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Frank DeWitt on February 09, 2013, 05:41:44 PM
I'll comment on a few things.

IEMs are better then wedges.   Way better.  Better input for the talent, Lower stage volume. Cleaner better sound to the congregation.  (The sound from wedges goes into the microphones along with the singers and gives a muddy sound.)

We found that all stage volume went down including the drum kit and piano.  They did not need to play so loud in order to here them selves.

An ambient mic will help the  "in a can" problem.  Place it up near the WT so they don't get a delay.  What mic you use is not real important.

You can also get personal mixers from Rolls  http://www.rolls.com/product.php?pid=PM55 and http://www.rolls.com/product.php?pid=PM351

IEMs and personal mixers would be even better but cost more.  About $1500 plus some used laptops for control surfaces for a 16 person 16 ch system (SAC)

The band will need to understand that just as with wedges, the best sound is not on the platform.  They are ministering and the IEMs should give them the beat and there place, not great music.  The great music goes to the congregation.
Title: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: chris harwood on February 09, 2013, 05:49:17 PM
Or the great music goes to God...  congregations are typically invited along, with leading from the team.  :-D

Frank has a good point that many inexperienced musicians feel they need to get a "final mix" in there personal monitor.  Typically, I could care less what the 2nd chair piccolo-ist is playing....
Title: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Tommy Peel on February 09, 2013, 05:59:21 PM
I'll comment on a few things.

IEMs are better then wedges.   Way better.  Better input for the talent, Lower stage volume. Cleaner better sound to the congregation.  (The sound from wedges goes into the microphones along with the singers and gives a muddy sound.)

We found that all stage volume went down including the drum kit and piano.  They did not need to play so loud in order to here them selves.

An ambient mic will help the  "in a can" problem.  Place it up near the WT so they don't get a delay.  What mic you use is not real important.

You can also get personal mixers from Rolls  http://www.rolls.com/product.php?pid=PM55 and http://www.rolls.com/product.php?pid=PM351

IEMs and personal mixers would be even better but cost more.  About $1500 plus some used laptops for control surfaces for a 16 person 16 ch system (SAC)

The band will need to understand that just as with wedges, the best sound is not on the platform.  They are ministering and the IEMs should give them the beat and there place, not great music.  The great music goes to the congregation.

The band definitely understands that their mix won't be as good as the FOH; they've been dealing with some pretty bad mixes for a while now and we are just trying to get it where they can hear each other(and themselves) better. I'm hoping that with a better mix the singers will stop wandering off of their mics so much. :-)

Those Rolls boxes are nice, I may get the 3ch version for drums so he can play a click track if needed. The issue is that they're almost 3x the cost of the Behringer units(although they may well be worth it).

What I'm hoping to go to in the future is one of the smaller x32s(maybe an iPad controlled x32 Rack) and the Behringer personal mixers, but this is a long way down the road.
Title: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Frank DeWitt on February 09, 2013, 06:57:55 PM
I note that B+H photo has customer reviews on both the  Behringer and the Rolls
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/643697-REG/Rolls_PM55_PM55_Personal_Monitor_Amp.html
Title: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Luke Geis on February 09, 2013, 07:23:31 PM
The conventional wedge setup will be the cheapest way to go, but as mentioned will have it's downsides. Also to fit in the budget your looking at the wedges won't be that great. The IEM approach will cost more, but has a few downsides as well. The stereo mix thing is pretty mush a must, as mono mixes do sound pretty boring. Another thing is that without FX in the ears it also sounds really up front and uninspiring. You may find that what you need is a dedicated monitor desk that can do stereo mixes and patch in some FX. You only need a desk big enough to deal with about 16 inputs ( you don't need every channel in the monitors ) to get a good mix going. Depending on how many band members there are you may even be able to get away with a normal desk. You can cheat and use sub groups routed as stereo pairs, the main out and then mix auxes as stereo pairs. A typical 16.4.2 could handle this. Presonus SL comes to mind. The only real expense would be the IEM's for the band. I would make it so each member acquires their own. They will likely never need to get a new unit and they can take it with them when they leave the band? I think a decent $600 unit would do well for your level. I prefer Sennheiser over Shure, but that is opinion. IEM's are hard to get into because the cost seems high, but in reality it's about the same as conventional wedges after you factor in power amps and cabling. If each member just commits and saves up to buy the same units, they will have something they can use for a long time. Do the same for wedges and what do you get?
Title: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Tommy Peel on February 09, 2013, 07:53:30 PM
The conventional wedge setup will be the cheapest way to go, but as mentioned will have it's downsides. Also to fit in the budget your looking at the wedges won't be that great. The IEM approach will cost more, but has a few downsides as well. The stereo mix thing is pretty mush a must, as mono mixes do sound pretty boring. Another thing is that without FX in the ears it also sounds really up front and uninspiring. You may find that what you need is a dedicated monitor desk that can do stereo mixes and patch in some FX. You only need a desk big enough to deal with about 16 inputs ( you don't need every channel in the monitors ) to get a good mix going. Depending on how many band members there are you may even be able to get away with a normal desk. You can cheat and use sub groups routed as stereo pairs, the main out and then mix auxes as stereo pairs. A typical 16.4.2 could handle this. Presonus SL comes to mind. The only real expense would be the IEM's for the band. I would make it so each member acquires their own. They will likely never need to get a new unit and they can take it with them when they leave the band? I think a decent $600 unit would do well for your level. I prefer Sennheiser over Shure, but that is opinion. IEM's are hard to get into because the cost seems high, but in reality it's about the same as conventional wedges after you factor in power amps and cabling. If each member just commits and saves up to buy the same units, they will have something they can use for a long time. Do the same for wedges and what do you get?

If I was going to buy a board to do monitors with I'd be one of those new smaller x32s(probably paired with personal mixers) that are coming out soon; I could use that for monitors and FOH. Not that I don't like the PreSonus stuff but the new Behringer boards out class them pretty easily in terms of features to dollars(not that we can afford either right now). But getting wireless IEMs and another board are out of our price range for now...
Title: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 09, 2013, 08:10:06 PM
If I was going to buy a board to do monitors with I'd be one of those new smaller x32s(probably paired with personal mixers) that are coming out soon; I could use that for monitors and FOH. Not that I don't like the PreSonus stuff but the new Behringer boards out class them pretty easily in terms of features to dollars(not that we can afford either right now). But getting wireless IEMs and another board are out of our price range for now...

It's a matter of getting everyone together and establishing priorities, then finding a way to implement them with what you have and what you can afford to add.  If you're limited in money, look to maximize what you do have through cooperation and imagination.

I would suggest you start by working without any PA whatsoever, focusing on placement and volume of amps.  Find a formation where everyone can hear what they need to hear as much as possible with no mains and no monitors.

Now add voices to the PA and re-evaluate your positioning to see if some adjustments can either maintain or improve upon your use without PA.  Then GENTLY add instruments to the mix without overwhelming your ability to amplify the voices.

I would recommend you use side-wash monitors for the vocals and keep the instruments under control so as not to overwhelm them.

Lastly, add any spot  monitors which you might need (vocals for the drummer, for example).  If you follow this procedure together and carefully work to maintain a "natural" balance throughout, you'll end up with a workable outcome by spending time together on the "problem" and not spending money.  You'll find out how much volume you can coherently put out with what you have and what talent/cooperation you can bring to bear.  I would wager that if you're all really together in the effort, that will be better than any sheer volume you can add by buying more gear.......which you'll still have to learn how to use by going through the process I've lined out.

Simply buying technology to solve a situation such as this often involves spending enough money to come to the conclusion that what you needed to do all along was just get better at working together  without complex and costly machinery.
Title: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Tommy Peel on February 09, 2013, 08:42:38 PM
It's a matter of getting everyone together and establishing priorities, then finding a way to implement them with what you have and what you can afford to add.  If you're limited in money, look to maximize what you do have through cooperation and imagination.

I would suggest you start by working without any PA whatsoever, focusing on placement and volume of amps.  Find a formation where everyone can hear what they need to hear as much as possible with no mains and no monitors.

Now add voices to the PA and re-evaluate your positioning to see if some adjustments can either maintain or improve upon your use without PA.  Then GENTLY add instruments to the mix without overwhelming your ability to amplify the voices.

I would recommend you use side-wash monitors for the vocals and keep the instruments under control so as not to overwhelm them.

Lastly, add any spot  monitors which you might need (vocals for the drummer, for example).  If you follow this procedure together and carefully work to maintain a "natural" balance throughout, you'll end up with a workable outcome by spending time together on the "problem" and not spending money.

Simply buying technology to solve a situation such as this often involves spending enough money to come to the conclusion that what you needed to do all along was just get better at working together  without complex and costly machinery.

Sounds like a good plan although we run all instruments direct with amps on stage just loud enough for the player to hear. The keyboard is a midi controller that operates GarageBand on the lead singer's Macbook so it will have to run through the system.  The bass amp is probably the loudest amp on stage and it's aimed up and toward the audience; the electric guitar amp is aimed across the stage and kept pretty low. The other amps are connected like powered wedges and fed from 2 of the auxes. We've been getting a pretty good FOH mix for a while now so I'm a little reluctant to mess with it too much and the stage volume is under pretty good control except for the drums. The main issue is the musicians not hearing each other very well. We'll definitely try to spend some more time trying to dial in what we have though. I'm hoping that if we can get the monitor situation better that the bass and electric guitar amps will "go away."


Thanks,
Tommy
Title: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 09, 2013, 09:57:30 PM
The main issue is the musicians not hearing each other very well.

Thanks,
Tommy

Just what do they need to hear that they aren't hearing now?  Hear each other doing what?
Title: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Tommy Peel on February 09, 2013, 10:21:19 PM
Just what do they need to hear that they aren't hearing now?  Hear each other doing what?

I'd have to talk to them, which I'll do Monday at practice, to know for sure, but I think lead and bg singers(usually just the lead and one bg but sometimes we have up to 3 bg singers) probably have trouble hearing themselves/each other's voices. I know that I have to ride their faders quite a bit although that may have more to do with bad mic technique than the monitors. I'd like to hope that if they can hear a better mix of the vocals that they would be able to work their mics better. I also know that the amps we use for monitors aren't the clearest in the world either. Generally the complaint is that we "need better monitors" so I'm going to have to talk to them to know for sure.


Tommy
Title: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 09, 2013, 10:28:25 PM
I have to ride their faders quite a bit although that may have more to do with bad mic technique than the monitors. I'd like to hope that if they can hear a better mix of the vocals that they would be able to work their mics better.

That's exactly backwards.  They need to stay on their mics properly in order for anything to work.  Until they learn to perform in an effective manner, there's nothing else to do.  End of story.

Quote
I also know that the amps we use for monitors aren't the clearest in the world either. Generally the complaint is that we "need better monitors" so I'm going to have to talk to them to know for sure.

Tommy

If you're using amps for monitors instead of real wedges, that' another FAIL.

Again, I suggest a couple of side-wash monitors.  You can get away with a L/R mix of vocals and cover the performing area with 2 speakers.  If you use floor wedges, chances are you'll end up with more than 2. 

Get them on the mics.   Lose the amps.  Forget fancy solutions.  Do the basics correctly.
Title: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Tommy Peel on February 09, 2013, 10:55:07 PM
That's exactly backwards.  They need to stay on their mics properly in order for anything to work.  Until they learn to perform in an effective manner, there's nothing else to do.  End of story.

If you're using amps for monitors instead of real wedges, that' another FAIL.

Again, I suggest a couple of side-wash monitors.  You can get away with a L/R mix of vocals and cover the performing area with 2 speakers.  If you use floor wedges, chances are you'll end up with more than 2. 

Get them on the mics.   Lose the amps.  Forget fancy solutions.  Do the basics correctly.

I've been working on getting them to stay on their mics, and will keep doing so. The side wash wedges sound like a good solution, should I feed both off one aux or put separate mixes on each one? Also with the way the stage is setup the drummer won't be covered in the side washes well enough. The main point of this is to get us off of our amp "monitors" and onto something better; they have been better than what we did before(no monitors) though. I've attached a couple of pics of our setup, they aren't great but they show what our stage looks like. The first one is from last week and is a non-typical setup because we were short our main drummer so we did it acoustic. The second one is a more normal setup. Where would you put the side washes?

Edit: Dick, why don't you think IEMs are the best idea?
Title: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Luke Geis on February 10, 2013, 12:57:28 AM
You could do something that is a little more far fetched. Put the PA behind you! Then it will be your monitor. If you can't hear what you need that way then your really in trouble. The other upside is that you will have a pretty good idea about how you really sound as if you were in front of the PA. The downside is that you will be limited as to how much volume you can have before the mics start to feed back. I have done this a few times and it works well. It really forces you to keep your levels realistic and if you can't sound good this way, then you really know what your up against. If desired you can run one speaker instead of two and use the other as a monitor. If the bulk of the sound out of the PA is vocals then having a single speaker in the air behind the drummer will be a pretty good way to run ( no comb filtering ). It seems silly, but I found it to be quite effective as a solution to band training. If it can't work this way, then it may never work.
Title: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Samuel Rees on February 10, 2013, 08:29:32 AM
I wouldn't recommend doing that. You can find a solution that doesn't involve placing your FOH speakers behind your vocal mics!
Title: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 10, 2013, 08:40:03 AM
The second one is a more normal setup. Where would you put the side washes?

On the sides, pointed in.  Final placement to be wherever the coverage is best.

Quote

Edit: Dick, why don't you think IEMs are the best idea?

I was addressing your budget.....or the lack thereof.  IEM's might be a fine idea.  But cheap ones are not.  You'll want custom molds or very high quality buds to have them work well.  I'd guess that good IEM rigs are close to $1000/person.  Then you'll need a desk with enough auxes to handle the mixes, preferably stereo.  Then you'll need to learn how to mix them.

But first of all. your people will have to learn proper mic technique and stay on their mics.
If you do that (which doesn't cost anything), you'll likely be able to get a large improvement by just adding a couple of 10 or 12 inch powered monitors for side-wash and a small wedge for the drummer.

You can run side-washes on one aux. L/R is better.  You'll want a separate aux for the drum wedge.

Concentrate on working together before investing a couple of grand on IEM's and a new desk.

   
Title: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 10, 2013, 09:33:22 AM
You could do something that is a little more far fetched. Put the PA behind you!

I think anyone who has been running sound for a few years has had to do this at one time or another.  It had crossed my mind to mention it, but I left it for you.

Samuel.....

It's totally workable......IF you have the experience and the gear to do it.  The OP apparently lacks the precise EQ'ing I'd want.  But the whole argument for any particular setup still boils down to MIC TECHNIQUE.  If they won't stay on the mics and be the "loudest sound at the mic", they've crippled themselves beyond the help of most any soundie. 
Title: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Samuel Rees on February 10, 2013, 10:17:18 AM
Wow, I never would have thought that could be anything but bad. Interesting to know under the right conditions it could work out, thanks.
Title: Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Tommy Peel on February 10, 2013, 12:08:37 PM
On the sides, pointed in.  Final placement to be wherever the coverage is best.

I was addressing your budget.....or the lack thereof.  IEM's might be a fine idea.  But cheap ones are not.  You'll want custom molds or very high quality buds to have them work well.  I'd guess that good IEM rigs are close to $1000/person.  Then you'll need a desk with enough auxes to handle the mixes, preferably stereo.  Then you'll need to learn how to mix them.

But first of all. your people will have to learn proper mic technique and stay on their mics.
If you do that (which doesn't cost anything), you'll likely be able to get a large improvement by just adding a couple of 10 or 12 inch powered monitors for side-wash and a small wedge for the drummer.

You can run side-washes on one aux. L/R is better.  You'll want a separate aux for the drum wedge.

Concentrate on working together before investing a couple of grand on IEM's and a new desk.

 

Sounds good, we'll be looking into getting some powered speakers for side washes and a drum wedge in the near future. Will those Alto coaxial 12s I mentioned in the first post work for the side wash and drum wedge? Should I get some tripod stands to put the side washes on? In our normal room I may be able to set them on those walls by the organ(on the right) and the piano(on the left) but when we play elsewhere we may need something to put them on.

Sent from my Milestone X using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Tommy Peel on February 10, 2013, 12:13:07 PM
You could do something that is a little more far fetched. Put the PA behind you! Then it will be your monitor. If you can't hear what you need that way then your really in trouble. The other upside is that you will have a pretty good idea about how you really sound as if you were in front of the PA. The downside is that you will be limited as to how much volume you can have before the mics start to feed back. I have done this a few times and it works well. It really forces you to keep your levels realistic and if you can't sound good this way, then you really know what your up against. If desired you can run one speaker instead of two and use the other as a monitor. If the bulk of the sound out of the PA is vocals then having a single speaker in the air behind the drummer will be a pretty good way to run ( no comb filtering ). It seems silly, but I found it to be quite effective as a solution to band training. If it can't work this way, then it may never work.

The original setup before I started doing sound there had the speakers on the stage where the musicians could hear them directly. In that case the levels were left the same and they just used one of those suitcase PAs(which we still use as a power amp). We quickly decided that this didn't work very well and transitioned to the setup in the pictures.

Sent from my Milestone X using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 10, 2013, 01:07:51 PM
Sounds good, we'll be looking into getting some powered speakers for side washes and a drum wedge in the near future. Will those Alto coaxial 12s I mentioned in the first post work for the side wash and drum wedge? Should I get some tripod stands to put the side washes on? In our normal room I may be able to set them on those walls by the organ(on the right) and the piano(on the left) but when we play elsewhere we may need something to put them on.

Sent from my Milestone X using Tapatalk 2

Yes and yes.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Tommy Peel on February 10, 2013, 04:11:42 PM
Yes and yes.

Thanks for the help, we'll be getting some of those speakers soon. I'll also be working with everyone to get them to stay on their mics better. Do you think that with the side washes I'll be able to run enough electric guitar through them to get that amp off the stage?

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Title: Re: Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 10, 2013, 04:38:23 PM
Thanks for the help, we'll be getting some of those speakers soon. I'll also be working with everyone to get them to stay on their mics better. Do you think that with the side washes I'll be able to run enough electric guitar through them to get that amp off the stage?

Sent from my Milestone X using Tapatalk 2

Keep the monitors for the vocals.  Use one of the small amps pointed across the stage for the guitar.  Either tilt it back a bit or set it on something 2 to 3 feet high.
Title: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Luke Geis on February 10, 2013, 05:14:03 PM
The PA behind the band thing is more for those without monitors and who are not really all that loud to begin with. When you get down to the brass tacks, it's not much different than running a normal side wash monitor setup. In this method your killing two birds with one stone. It just has limitations. It requires cooperation between band members to work with it and keep things real. It is a good way in reality to know what you sound like as a band! You can really nail down levels and instrument tone. If you have a lot of low mid build up and you have a tough time getting the vocals to cut through it, you can tell pretty quickly what needs to be done. With only ( or predominately ) only vocals going through the PA you can also really nail that sound down. Not something commonly done, but is effective. I play in bands and do sound as a profession and have come across situations where this is absolutely the way to go. Think small venue, low levels and no need for monitoring.
Title: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Tommy Peel on February 10, 2013, 05:29:39 PM
Keep the monitors for the vocals.  Use one of the small amps pointed across the stage for the guitar.  Either tilt it back a bit or set it on something 2 to 3 feet high.

Sounds like a plan, he's already been using his amp as a self monitor(Boss GT-6>DI>DI Parallel out to amp and DI balanced out to system) so we'll keep doing that.

Also, keys(mostly electronic piano) and acoustic guitar will have to go through the monitors. I doubt this will be a problem as the players for each also sing.(lead on keys and background on acoustic)


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Title: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Tommy Peel on February 10, 2013, 05:38:55 PM
The PA behind the band thing is more for those without monitors and who are not really all that loud to begin with. When you get down to the brass tacks, it's not much different than running a normal side wash monitor setup. In this method your killing two birds with one stone. It just has limitations. It requires cooperation between band members to work with it and keep things real. It is a good way in reality to know what you sound like as a band! You can really nail down levels and instrument tone. If you have a lot of low mid build up and you have a tough time getting the vocals to cut through it, you can tell pretty quickly what needs to be done. With only ( or predominately ) only vocals going through the PA you can also really nail that sound down. Not something commonly done, but is effective. I play in bands and do sound as a profession and have come across situations where this is absolutely the way to go. Think small venue, low levels and no need for monitoring.

We play at a pretty small venue, but not at low levels. I'm almost positive we're too loud for this approach unless we are doing an acoustic set(like last week).

That said I'm sure it works well under the right conditions.


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Title: Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Scott Wagner on February 11, 2013, 09:33:23 AM
Will those Alto coaxial 12s I mentioned in the first post work for the side wash and drum wedge?
They should work fine for side fills (ASSuming that the 70* conical pattern matches your needs).  As a drum wedge, you'll want to add a sub.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Jay Barracato on February 11, 2013, 09:51:35 AM
  As a drum wedge, you'll want to add a sub.

That is big stage/big venue technique.

Something is serious out of wack if the loudest acoustic source needs reinforcement in a smaller setting.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Scott Wagner on February 11, 2013, 10:20:37 AM
That is big stage/big venue technique.

Something is serious out of wack if the loudest acoustic source needs reinforcement in a smaller setting.
It's more a comment on the Alto's tonality - they don't go very low.  A small sub driven at conservative levels works wonders, even on a small stage.  YMMV.  Overall, I've been pleasantly surprised with the Alto SXM112.  Nothing else comes close at this price point, and they need surprisingly little EQ to sound good.  The knobs are vunerable, so you'll want to be careful with them.  The finish (simple textured paint) isn't very durable.  Hey, you get what you pay for.  Sonically, you get a bit more.
Title: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Tommy Peel on February 11, 2013, 10:22:23 AM
That is big stage/big venue technique.

Something is serious out of wack if the loudest acoustic source needs reinforcement in a smaller setting.

We do end up reinforcing the drums a little, mainly the kick to get some extra thump out of it(it is behind a wall also so the kick isn't very loud). Also on some songs the floor tom needs some reinforcement; we have the whole kit mic'd up for multitrack recording anyway so I can add what is needed easily. That said we never have to put any drums in any of the monitors as they tend to be too loud on stage(mostly just the cymbals and snare). 


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Title: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Tommy Peel on February 11, 2013, 10:26:05 AM
It's more a comment on the Alto's tonality - they don't go very low.  A small sub driven at conservative levels works wonders, even on a small stage.  YMMV.  Overall, I've been pleasantly surprised with the Alto SXM112.  Nothing else comes close at this price point, and they need surprisingly little EQ to sound good.  The knobs are vunerable, so you'll want to be careful with them.  The finish (simple textured paint) isn't very durable.  Hey, you get what you pay for.  Sonically, you get a bit more.

I'm hoping that when we get out monitor situation fixed we can get a sub or two next, but that's another topic for another day.


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Title: Re: Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 11, 2013, 11:27:48 AM
It's more a comment on the Alto's tonality - they don't go very low.  A small sub driven at conservative levels works wonders, even on a small stage.  YMMV.  Overall, I've been pleasantly surprised with the Alto SXM112.  Nothing else comes close at this price point, and they need surprisingly little EQ to sound good.  The knobs are vunerable, so you'll want to be careful with them.  The finish (simple textured paint) isn't very durable.  Hey, you get what you pay for.  Sonically, you get a bit more.

I don't put bass or kick drum through any of my wedges.  If there's a need for that, a sub/wedge combo is my preference.  There are wedges which will handle LF, but they're not run-of-the-mill.  Neither are they compact and they'll need to be bi-amped and DSP'ed.

Yes, the knobs are vulnerable, so they need to have some casing or reinforced covers if you're going to move them.  If they're in a situation where they're left in place in an area with activity or traffic, I'd make sure to have some padded covers made with a pocket in the back with a stiff insert bridging the control panel area.

Use the covers when not in use.
Title: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Bob L. Wilson on February 12, 2013, 10:39:02 AM
If you're using amps for monitors instead of real wedges, that' another FAIL.

Dick is right on except, high quality full range acoustic instrument amps don't necessarily fail as vocal and instrument monitors if deployed correctly. We had a country/old time acoustic gospel group in a few years ago and they had effectively combined their backline and their monitor rig in to one. The guitar and dobro player were using top of the line Fishman and Trace amps tipped back at their feet, and the standup bass player had a Genz-Benz head with a twelve, two eights and a tweeter cabinet behind and to one side as he was using a mic instead of a pickup. They had a Proco splitter, a Roland analog rack mixer and three Audio arts notch filters racked together to control everything. Before I could even see how they wanted me to set out our wedges they were setup, rung out, and playing. I just plugged into the isolated outputs on their splitter for the house and tried to stay out their way. I walked the stage during warmup and those amps sounded surprisingly good doing double duty as instrument amps and stage monitors. They all had the ability to adjust the balance between their own instrument and their individual "monitor level" by varying the amps channel one and channel two level controls but I never saw them touch anything during the service.
Title: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Bob L. Wilson on February 12, 2013, 11:10:57 AM

We have talked about getting some powered wedges(if new we’ll get some Alto SXM112As(http://amzn.to/WYFFqS (http://amzn.to/WYFFqS)); if used, whatever is decent that we find on CL). That said I don’t like the idea of getting wedges because we normally play on a small stage and I think that we would end up with too much stage volume.


Herein lies the rub. In my experience the level required of the wedges so the players can "hear" is inversely related to the number of monitor mixes, the quality of the wedges and the number of wedges used. This leads to Bob's wedge axiom: Use more mixes, Use better wedges, Use more of them = Use lower levels. In an ideal world every player gets three wedges and three individualized mixes with nothing but their voice in the center wedge and whatever stereo mix they desire in the other two. Very few systems can support that many mixes but many can be configured to support individualized vocal mixes paired with one of two or three stereo mixes, say one for rhythm players, one for the front line players and one for the backup singers or choir.

The inverse of the axiom is just as true no stage will be louder than one with a single monitor mix through a few MI grade wedges.
Title: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Luke Geis on February 12, 2013, 04:58:17 PM
A couple things about keyboard amps.  1. They are basically PA speakers. 2. They don't work very well as monitors. Yes they are getting the job done. But getting it done and doing it right are two things.

The reality about playing in venues and owning equipment is about knowing the limitations. If you have low end speakers that won't get very loud before feedback, you have no choice but to run them at a lower level. This may mean that you have to turn instruments down still for that mix to be heard. If a venue is not a rock concert venue ( like a church ) you don't need to be pushing 120db off the stage! Trust me, they can hear you. Being loud isn't as cool as it seems. But that's not the point. The point is that you can make anything you have work, it's just that you have to work with it. If there is a consistent problem from show to show, look within and don't blame anything but yourself. The equipment is not to blame, it's the user/operator. Bands produce 90% of their own problems. Volume is 90% of those problems. They rest is simply not deciding to make the change at the source of the problem. It's usually pretty simple, turn it down and everything gets to be heard.

As for the number of monitor mixes. This is one case where more may be better. It's easier to get intelligibility when each player has their own mix. This may help getting levels down. That does not mean 3 wedges per artist with a 3 channel LCR mix. A single wedge per artist with a stipulation that it is meant for vocals and un-amplified instruments ( not including drums ) is a good regimen. On a small stage having monitors may actually be more desirable? The reason being is that the lack of " space " between artists means that they are stepping all over each other. On larger stages the " space " is more open and it's easier to hear you own mix, but you usually need more things in it to hear everything else well.

When you do two mixes spread between 4 band members, there is always compromise. You are sharing the mix and everything in it. This includes stuff you don't want at levels you don't want. This is another big proponent to the " more me " syndrome. It's the snowball effect. He gets more, I need more and the circle repeats.

Another big thing that many don't consider is that over time you lose sensitivity to hearing when in a loud environment. So the " MIX " seems to change as things you heard easier before are not as loud as they used to be to you. Your hearing starts to get shot and you find yourself asking for more. This hearing loss is sort of frequency dependent. The lows come through easier simply because you can feel it and the highs start to fade away. So things lose clarity and a mix that may have been dark already, becomes even darker. Intelligibility goes down and volume is usually the snake oil.

More food for thought? I think that the IEM approach would be better overall. Price doesn't seem to work, so getting conventional mixes is the only other option. Getting something that has good clarity is the key. You don't want low end monitors as they don't always help. If your already a loud band and are not willing to change that characteristic, then having a good clear monitor is key. Mr. Rees seems to like the ALTO's and they are affordable. For a little more you can get the EV Live-X series and it will have more volume. Whether you can get more volume before feedback is the question? It may behoove you to see if you can find these things locally and try them out. Guitar center has a pretty good return policy and it may help you try before you buy. 
Title: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 12, 2013, 05:17:02 PM

The reality about playing in venues and owning equipment is about knowing the limitations. If you have low end speakers that won't get very loud before feedback, you have no choice but to run them at a lower level.

Sorry, but I couldn't read the rest of the post without questioning this statement.  If you really mean that the threshold of feedback is somehow dependent on the "quality" of the speakers, we have to stop right there.

The capability of a system to produce a usable amount of sound before feedback depends on the entire system setup, not speaker "quality".  I refer to the old maxim "loudest sound at the mic wins".  Whether the "loudest sound" comes from an inexpensive speaker or a highly-engineered, state of the art speaker, the threshold of feedback is governed by total system balance. A cheap speaker will not differ from an expensive speaker if the sound from said speaker at the microphone starts a self-reinforcing loop.

Granted, a more highly-engineered speaker which exhibits significant pattern control may allow more volume "out front" before feedback happens, but simply attributing the feedback threshold to the "cheapness" of the box is a bit of a blanket statement.
Title: Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Tommy Peel on February 12, 2013, 06:05:29 PM
Herein lies the rub. In my experience the level required of the wedges so the players can "hear" is inversely related to the number of monitor mixes, the quality of the wedges and the number of wedges used. This leads to Bob's wedge axiom: Use more mixes, Use better wedges, Use more of them = Use lower levels. In an ideal world every player gets three wedges and three individualized mixes with nothing but their voice in the center wedge and whatever stereo mix they desire in the other two. Very few systems can support that many mixes but many can be configured to support individualized vocal mixes paired with one of two or three stereo mixes, say one for rhythm players, one for the front line players and one for the backup singers or choir.

The inverse of the axiom is just as true no stage will be louder than one with a single monitor mix through a few MI grade wedges.

Well I'd love to have that many mixes, although if I could get 3 wedges and mixes per person we could easily afford to get IEM's. That said I'm sure your system works. Eventually we'll get to the point where we'll have 4 mixes(max our board can do) for our 5-6 musicians on 4-6 wedges.

Sent from my Milestone X using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Bob L. Wilson on February 13, 2013, 09:33:10 AM
Well I'd love to have that many mixes, although if I could get 3 wedges and mixes per person we could easily afford to get IEM's.

Assuming one was amongst the flock that believes IEM is a silver bullet. Lots of excellent sounding worship and secular functions took place with instrument amps on stage, drums in the open, and wedges. I visit quite a few churches with amps in a closet somewhere, drummer in an aquarium, and IEM systems that still sound like they were tuned by a deaf man and are being operated by a teenager that spends every day riding around listening to bumps.

I believe stage sound is the essence of live performance and eliminating it instead of learning to manage and work with it is what has led to the cartoonish sound I hear in some churches. As with many things in life the outcome is affected by the beginning. If one begins from a tradition or a worship style that values acoustic instruments the notion of a sound reinforcement (not sound replacement) system is obvious.
Title: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Tommy Peel on February 13, 2013, 10:39:43 AM
Assuming one was amongst the flock that believes IEM is a silver bullet. Lots of excellent sounding worship and secular functions took place with instrument amps on stage, drums in the open, and wedges. I visit quite a few churches with amps in a closet somewhere, drummer in an aquarium, and IEM systems that still sound like they were tuned by a deaf man and are being operated by a teenager that spends every day riding around listening to bumps.

I believe stage sound is the essence of live performance and eliminating it instead of learning to manage and work with it is what has led to the cartoonish sound I hear in some churches. As with many things in life the outcome is affected by the beginning. If one begins from a tradition or a worship style that values acoustic instruments the notion of a sound reinforcement (not sound replacement) system is obvious.

I can see how this can be an issue, however the church I attend on Sundays(of which I have nothing to do with the sound) has IEMs, no amps on stage, and a partial drum cage and they always have excellent sound. While this may be the exception, the setup does work well but it requires good mixing and a well tuned system. I don't see us being able to afford going to a setup like this in the neat future though.

Last night at our bands service things went well; the singers stayed on their mics and everything sounded good(despite not having any real monitors yet). I also used a technique that I read somewhere on the forum of pulling out critical vocal frequencies(around 2k where i normally boost the lead vocals high mid eq)from other channels(mainly the acoustic guitar and keys). I didn't have to pull very much out of those channels but it seemed to make a huge difference in the intelligibility of the vocals.

Anyway hopefully in the next couple of weeks we'll be getting some real monitors.


Thanks,
Tommy


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Title: Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Frank DeWitt on February 13, 2013, 01:21:09 PM
Assuming one was amongst the flock that believes IEM is a silver bullet. Lots of excellent sounding worship and secular functions took place with instrument amps on stage, drums in the open, and wedges. I visit quite a few churches with amps in a closet somewhere, drummer in an aquarium, and IEM systems that still sound like they were tuned by a deaf man and are being operated by a teenager that spends every day riding around listening to bumps.

I believe stage sound is the essence of live performance and eliminating it instead of learning to manage and work with it is what has led to the cartoonish sound I hear in some churches. As with many things in life the outcome is affected by the beginning. If one begins from a tradition or a worship style that values acoustic instruments the notion of a sound reinforcement (not sound replacement) system is obvious.

I have heard 4 singers and one of them with a guitar on a stage with one microphone, no monitors, no IEMs  just them and one mic.  They constantly rearranged them selves to "mix" there sound.  Different ones would move in front of the mic for a solo or lead part. It sounded great.

I work in a old church with a small platform that is completely unstable for a worship team.  The team is arranged in the only space available.  Four singers, one acoustic guitar, one electric guitar, a grand piano and a drum kit (no aquarium) right in front of the piano.  The nearest member of the congregation is about 8 ft away.  IEMs with personal mixers are the Silver Bullet in this case.  I would not be without them.  Our sound was good before we had them, now it is great.
Title: Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Bob L. Wilson on February 13, 2013, 01:49:45 PM
I have heard 4 singers and one of them with a guitar on a stage with one microphone, no monitors, no IEMs  just them and one mic.  They constantly rearranged them selves to "mix" there sound.  Different ones would move in front of the mic for a solo or lead part. It sounded great.

I work in a old church with a small platform that is completely unstable for a worship team.  The team is arranged in the only space available.  Four singers, one acoustic guitar, one electric guitar, a grand piano and a drum kit (no aquarium) right in front of the piano.  The nearest member of the congregation is about 8 ft away.  IEMs with personal mixers are the Silver Bullet in this case.  I would not be without them.  Our sound was good before we had them, now it is great.

We had a single mic old time traveling gospel group play last year for worship it was really great. I am glad IEMs work in your application I stand by my assertion that stage sound is the essence of live performance. If it isn't why not just wire the sanctuary so the entire congregation can wear headphones it would probably be cheaper than the ridiculous powered line arrays some churches are getting talked in to buying, in fact better yet lets have corporate worship by all sitting at home in our basements listening to the service stream over high quality headphones. reductio ad absurdum.
Title: Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 13, 2013, 01:57:30 PM
We had a single mic old time traveling gospel group play last year for worship it was really great. I am glad IEMs work in your application I stand by my assertion that stage sound is the essence of live performance. If it isn't why not just wire the sanctuary so the entire congregation can wear headphones it would probably be cheaper than the ridiculous powered line arrays some churches are getting talked in to buying, in fact better yet lets have corporate worship by all sitting at home in our basements listening to the service stream over high quality headphones. reductio ad absurdum.

Agreed.  And not as absurdum as you might thinkum......
Title: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 13, 2013, 02:27:31 PM
This makes me think of something someone posted on a recording forum contrasting professional jazz bands and a lot of new amatuer bands:

Quote
So let's begin at the very beginning. Let's say you have a straightforward
jazz/blues combo onstage. Drummer starts with a backbeat. Kick,
snare,kick,snare... (can you hear this? bump, CRACK, bump, CRACK... maybe some
hi-hat eighth notes or whatever...) No Problems with Clarity or Punch so far. (I'm
going to abbreviate that last sentence as NPCP from here on-- with me?)

So the string bass comes in (or P-bass, whatever), with a walking line that hits the
backbeat accents. The bass player is in the groove, the bass notes are just giving
tonality to the drum hits. The bass player, onstage with the drummer, is playing
just loud enough to complement the drums. NPCP. With me?

Singer starts in, alto, let's say. She's singing, nice and mellow melodic lines over
the punchy backbeat and the mellow bass sustain and tonality. NPCP. Any
questions?

Singer breaks for the pre-chorus. Guitar player comes in with a little melodic fill,
echoing the vocal line, then switches to a spanky backbeat pattern that reinforces
the snare drum as the singer delivers the chorus. With me so far? NPCP, right?

Second verse. Singer. Guitar now continuing the backbeat pattern, just muted
chord stabs over the snare. Tenor Sax comes in low and mellow, an octave below
the singer, fattening up the melody and providing a tonal bed. NPCP, right?

Second chorus. Singer delivers full-throated, lots of harmonics, sounding almost an
octave higher as the tenor sax continues and as a Hammond organ jumps in,
reinforcing the tenor sax part an octave lower with the left hand, and playing some
fat upper-register echoes of the guitar part with the right hand. Band now sounds
huge, but everything still has its own space. NPCP, right.

Third verse. Guitar now switches to a funky chunka-chunka part that hits the
chords on the backbeat but also chugs the hit-hat. Singer picks up her tambourine
and the whole band starts to shimmer and shake with the jingle-jingle-THWACKjingle-
jingle-jingle-THWACK-THWACK! Organ still jabbing the right-hand chords and
echoing the sax on the lows, sax now playing fills between the vocal lines (there is
a reason why they are called "fills"), bass and drums still pounding out the
backbeat, singer still in full control of the alto range with full-throated harmonics
competing with the organ jabs for the soprano range.

NPCP like a motherf***er, and this is just the first song of the set. Nothing to do
but put up a mic and step out for a smoke. Even if you don't smoke. The band
mixes itself.
__________________
Now let's contrast the above with a typical amateur garage band.
For one thing, the drummer is never playing bump, CRACK, bump, CRACK-- he's
playing a drum solo the whole time, whether he's any good at it or not-- cymbals
crashing, toms rolling, kick and snare playing all around the beat but never on it,
with no attention paid or the decay of the drums or how the drum sustain fits with
the tempo...

Next, the bass player is not reinforcing the drum beat (there is none), the bass
player is playing her own lead part, complete with loosey-goosey timing, an
overloaded, clackety, stringy, midrangery sound that can barely keep up with the
steady atonal crush of overloaded mud in the lows as she strives to prove that she's
really just another guitar player...

The guitar player(s), meanwhile, are stomping all over the vocal range, thoroughly
convinced that the only reason anyone listens to music is to hear guitar riffs and
"solos," which are of course guitar parts played in the presence range whenever the
guitar player feels like playing them, without regard to whether any other
instrument including the singer have actually dropped out...

Meanwhile the singer is probably also cluelessly strumming chords on an overdriven
electric guitar, with little sense of punch or clarity, just trying to be heard above the
cacophony, often as not playing the wrong chords for the key of the song, but
determined to strum them on EVERY VOCAL NOTE and somehow you are supposed
to make that fit into the rhythm and tempo of the rest of the band (which has no
rhythm or tempo to begin with). On top of that, concepts such as "range" and
"melody" are lost on this singer who switches octaves constantly (badly) and who
makes up for inability to create melodic tension by howling tunelessly (which you
are somehow supposed to make sound "soulful" or "passionate")...

Meanwhile the keyboard player is in her own little world (and who can blame her),
playing some kind of late-80's rearrangement of the whole song that is completely
disconnected from the rest of the band (and also totally saturating the upper
mids)...

Our poor soon-to-be fired horn player is left trying to play fills in no particular key
(cue sad horns wah-WAHHHH)....
__________________
Okay, so let me take off my jaded audio guy glasses for a sec and stipulate that
the second example might actually NOT be a bad band. They might actually have
good songs, and an impassioned, energetic delivery and good musical and personal
charisma. They might be the next Nirvana. But this is not going to be a "set up a
mic and go out for a smoke" recording project...
Title: Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Frank DeWitt on February 13, 2013, 02:43:59 PM
We had a single mic old time traveling gospel group play last year for worship it was really great. I am glad IEMs work in your application I stand by my assertion that stage sound is the essence of live performance. If it isn't why not just wire the sanctuary so the entire congregation can wear headphones it would probably be cheaper than the ridiculous powered line arrays some churches are getting talked in to buying, in fact better yet lets have corporate worship by all sitting at home in our basements listening to the service stream over high quality headphones. reductio ad absurdum.

We have a stage sound.  We need to with acoustic guitar piano, drums, and singers.  It is a good sound.  On practice nights I routinely go up and listen to it so I am working to reinforce.  Our IEMs don't eliminate or ruin our stage sound. They allow us to control or manage it.  IEMs  The Silver bullet

The Chapel in Buffalo NY broadcasts there service live over the internet.  They have a large internet following and a guy in the booth monitoring twitter and facebook.  That guy has lead people to the Lord using twitter on Sunday mornings.  http://www.thechapel.com/

We use what works.

There live service in my opinion is better.  Frank
Title: Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Bob L. Wilson on February 13, 2013, 04:21:03 PM
We have a stage sound.  We need to with acoustic guitar piano, drums, and singers.  It is a good sound.  On practice nights I routinely go up and listen to it so I am working to reinforce.  Our IEMs don't eliminate or ruin our stage sound. They allow us to control or manage it.  IEMs  The Silver bullet

The Chapel in Buffalo NY broadcasts there service live over the internet.  They have a large internet following and a guy in the booth monitoring twitter and facebook.  That guy has lead people to the Lord using twitter on Sunday mornings.  http://www.thechapel.com/

We use what works.

There live service in my opinion is better.  Frank

Any path to the kingdom I guess but its a stretch for me to see that "where ever two or more are gathered in my name" means via twitter.
Title: Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 13, 2013, 04:42:59 PM
Any path to the kingdom I guess but its a stretch for me to see that "where ever two or more are gathered in my name" means via twitter.

Good one.
Title: Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Frank DeWitt on February 13, 2013, 05:13:32 PM
Any path to the kingdom I guess but its a stretch for me to see that "where ever two or more are gathered in my name" means via twitter.

They find that in most cases the people watching are students at a near by college. Most of them will invite a few friends and watch in there dorm rooms so I guess they meat the legal requirement for two or more.
Title: Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 13, 2013, 05:20:14 PM
They find that in most cases the people watching are students at a near by college. Most of them will invite a few friends and watch in there dorm rooms so I guess they meat the legal requirement for two or more.

Unless they're vegetarians.....
Title: Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Bob L. Wilson on February 14, 2013, 09:25:44 AM
Unless they're vegetarians.....

I will go so far as to say that from my viewpoint the balkanization of the Christian Church in America in to 100,000 individual congregations with no or limited connectedness to their brothers and sisters in Christ has been about as good for the Church's influence on American society as the breakup was for the USSR's influence on world affairs. We and everybody else in the world ignore the Russians and most Americans now ignore the Church. There is an old African proverb: without the harness even a hundred oxen can not pull the plow.
Title: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Nick Simon on February 15, 2013, 01:55:07 PM
Jason, I think they were talking about our praise band...j/k

"Noodlers" drive me nuts...  we have a very talented guitar player that between songs is everywhere from SRV to Jimmy Page to Yngvie Malmsteen, then when the song starts, is lost.... ::)
Title: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: chris harwood on February 15, 2013, 05:43:12 PM
Jason, I think they were talking about our praise band...j/k

"Noodlers" drive me nuts...  we have a very talented guitar player that between songs is everywhere from SRV to Jimmy Page to Yngvie Malmsteen, then when the song starts, is lost.... ::)

or ditching the chord chart and putting actual sheet music in front of them will shut 'em up.... old joke, I guess but fantastically true.
Title: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Tim Padrick on February 18, 2013, 08:39:14 PM
I would not want anything without protective limiters.  : http://www.rockonaudio.com/?page=PKG-001, this: http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Shure-P4HW-Hardwired-Bodypack-for-PSM-400-Systems?sku=243606, and this http://www.peavey.com/products/accessories/power/index.cfm/item/117093/number/03001320/HB2HeadPhoneAmplifier.cfm (although the limiter is a bit too accessible for my taste).
Title: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: brian maddox on February 18, 2013, 10:12:01 PM
I would not want anything without protective limiters.  : http://www.rockonaudio.com/?page=PKG-001, this: http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Shure-P4HW-Hardwired-Bodypack-for-PSM-400-Systems?sku=243606, and this http://www.peavey.com/products/accessories/power/index.cfm/item/117093/number/03001320/HB2HeadPhoneAmplifier.cfm (although the limiter is a bit too accessible for my taste).

Actually, that peavey unit is the only one with a useful limiter because it's adjustable.  People often forget that IEM sensitivity varies a great deal.  I've got two sets of customs myself.  With one set, anything over 5 on my belt pack caves my head in.  With the others (which were quite a bit MORE expensive) 7 is just enough to get the job done.  Any preset limiter is gonna either squash the latter too early, or fail to protect my ears when I'm using the former.

On a hard wired rig, a separate limiter (aphex dominator is the standard) is a much better solution since you can adjust the levels, but still keep the controls away from those pesky musos.  On a wireless rig, it's very important to use the same limiter on the input, but also pay close attention to gain structure.  If you don't hit the transmitter hard enough, the musician will turn their beltpack up louder.  If they get an RF hit with the beltpack up too loud, there is serious danger of hearing damage.  this is a problem I have personally experienced and it is very painful.

So, in summary.  Preset limiters on beltpacks/headphone amps = bad.  Adjustable limiters on transmitter/headphone amp input = good.
Title: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Nick Simon on February 19, 2013, 09:28:12 AM
This is where precision applied feedback can be useful...   ;)
Title: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Luke Geis on February 19, 2013, 02:56:22 PM
This is where precision applied feedback can be useful...   ;)

I hate to say I have done that a couple times. The band was driving me nuts and I was trying to get their attention without yelling through the monitors,or looking like a monkey waving at nobody. HMMMMMMM twist and squeeeeeeeelllll. After a bunch of wo, wo, wo's, what was that? I can chime in and say alright now that I have your attention, lets actually do something productive.
Title: Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Jay Barracato on February 19, 2013, 05:00:21 PM
I hate to say I have done that a couple times. The band was driving me nuts and I was trying to get their attention without yelling through the monitors,or looking like a monkey waving at nobody. HMMMMMMM twist and squeeeeeeeelllll. After a bunch of wo, wo, wo's, what was that? I can chime in and say alright now that I have your attention, lets actually do something productive.

I just sing into the talk back mic.

The feedback would usually sound better.
Title: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Nick Simon on February 19, 2013, 05:07:04 PM
This is where precision applied feedback can be useful...   ;)

watch a prima-donna guitar player squirm trying to get an IEM out during one of his noodling yngvie moments.... 8)
Title: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 19, 2013, 05:39:45 PM
Actually, that peavey unit is the only one with a useful limiter because it's adjustable.  People often forget that IEM sensitivity varies a great deal.  I've got two sets of customs myself.  With one set, anything over 5 on my belt pack caves my head in.  With the others (which were quite a bit MORE expensive) 7 is just enough to get the job done.  Any preset limiter is gonna either squash the latter too early, or fail to protect my ears when I'm using the former.

On a hard wired rig, a separate limiter (aphex dominator is the standard) is a much better solution since you can adjust the levels, but still keep the controls away from those pesky musos.  On a wireless rig, it's very important to use the same limiter on the input, but also pay close attention to gain structure.  If you don't hit the transmitter hard enough, the musician will turn their beltpack up louder.  If they get an RF hit with the beltpack up too loud, there is serious danger of hearing damage.  this is a problem I have personally experienced and it is very painful.

So, in summary.  Preset limiters on beltpacks/headphone amps = bad.  Adjustable limiters on transmitter/headphone amp input = good.

I agree, although I also see Tim's point. I don't like the musicians to feel like they can just turn off the limiter whenever they feel like it because they want it louder. I'd rather they complain to me about it and I figure out a way to fix their mix (hopefully without even increasing the volume) or if absolutely necessary, adjust the limiter. The Sennheiser EW300 G3 IEM transmitter is good for this because you have to adjust the limiter on the transmitter which involves digging into the menu.
Title: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: chris harwood on February 19, 2013, 07:04:03 PM
watch a prima-donna guitar player squirm trying to get an IEM out during one of his noodling yngvie moments.... 8)
Although I know the above is said in jest... actually just shut them off instead..  Otherwise if it'd been me, they'd be pulling a flying V out of their throat, shoved in neck first.  ..  Now...that's rude!!  carry on !!  ;-D
Title: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Luke Geis on February 20, 2013, 01:41:07 PM
Rude is a bunch of musicians on stage all playing different things at the same time at full bore, in a venue that has other things going on that the noise is disrupting. It's a two way street. We all have a job to do and when we can't get your attention in the normal way, sometimes you have to resort to unpractical manners.

I had a visiting engineer come in once and he directed me exactly how he wanted things set. I didn't touch a single knob that he didn't tell me to touch. One of the musicians came up to the mic and did something? Needless to say there was about the most unbelievable 2k squeal I have ever heard. I was standing near the board, so guess who gets yelled at. I was told that if I ever did that again he would shot me, he pointed his hand at me like a gun and made a gun like sound. I didn't do a single thing I wasn't told do by their engineer. Now that is rude.....
Title: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Bob L. Wilson on February 21, 2013, 10:36:08 AM
Rude is a bunch of musicians on stage all playing different things at the same time at full bore, in a venue that has other things going on that the noise is disrupting. It's a two way street. We all have a job to do and when we can't get your attention in the normal way, sometimes you have to resort to unpractical manners.

I had a visiting engineer come in once and he directed me exactly how he wanted things set. I didn't touch a single knob that he didn't tell me to touch. One of the musicians came up to the mic and did something? Needless to say there was about the most unbelievable 2k squeal I have ever heard. I was standing near the board, so guess who gets yelled at. I was told that if I ever did that again he would shot me, he pointed his hand at me like a gun and made a gun like sound. I didn't do a single thing I wasn't told do by their engineer. Now that is rude.....

At practice last night I found out we will be using our chancel platform extension this year again for Easter. I immedately started trying to remember where I put the monster mats. That got me thinking about other people on here using wedges on resonant platforms. If a wedge is placed directly on our platform extension it excites in a way that robs clarity requiring more output for the team to "hear". When this came up a number of years ago at a dress rehearsal I tried all kinds of stuff to damp the resonance: carpet, carpet pad and foam from a chair bottom cushion the foam pads worked the best but looked bad and kept compressing, providing less and less isolation the longer they sat. I didn't think it would work for me to ask the pastor for a break in the service to fluff the wedges so I kept trying stuff. Eventually I tried the rear "monster" floor mats out of my Audi, they worked great. I ended up going to a local dismantler and scrounging the mats out of few wrecks. They are pliable rubber with lots of tall individual ridges that don't compress with our 12" coaxes sitting on them. I have also used them for outside events when the surface was wet to protect the wedges. They are obviously super durable and all the congregation can see is the finished edge.
Title: Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Tommy Peel on March 06, 2013, 03:00:41 PM
Sounds good, we'll be looking into getting some powered speakers for side washes and a drum wedge in the near future. Will those Alto coaxial 12s I mentioned in the first post work for the side wash and drum wedge? Should I get some tripod stands to put the side washes on? In our normal room I may be able to set them on those walls by the organ(on the right) and the piano(on the left) but when we play elsewhere we may need something to put them on.

Sent from my Milestone X using Tapatalk 2

Sorry to resurrect this post, but we haven't bought anything yet and I just saw these on CL: 2-Yamaha MSR250 with covers and 30' xlr/power cables for $500. They're somewhat cheaper than the Alto's that we've been looking at and cost more than them new. Would they work good for side washes and later floor wedges?

Here's a link to the ad: http://dallas.craigslist.org/ftw/msg/3662662976.html (http://dallas.craigslist.org/ftw/msg/3662662976.html)

Thanks,
Tommy Peel
Title: Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on March 06, 2013, 03:16:58 PM
Sorry to resurrect this post, but we haven't bought anything yet and I just saw these on CL: 2-Yamaha MSR250 with covers and 30' xlr/power cables for $500. They're somewhat cheaper than the Alto's that we've been looking at and cost more than them new. Would they work good for side washes and later floor wedges?

Here's a link to the ad: http://dallas.craigslist.org/ftw/msg/3662662976.html (http://dallas.craigslist.org/ftw/msg/3662662976.html)

Thanks,
Tommy Peel

Buying used always carries some risk, especially from "white van" sellers like Craigslist.

The other consideration in buying a bargain is whether or not you might be looking for more matching units down the line.  How available will they be?

Plus new = warranty.  Just some things to think about.
Title: Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Tommy Peel on March 06, 2013, 03:49:43 PM
Buying used always carries some risk, especially from "white van" sellers like Craigslist.

The other consideration in buying a bargain is whether or not you might be looking for more matching units down the line.  How available will they be?

Plus new = warranty.  Just some things to think about.

All are good things to think about. I've had good luck buying from CL so far(iPad, Macbook Pro, mixer, various rack gear) but I know of people who haven't. I definitely don't buy on there unless I can verify that said equipment is working good(at least to the best of my ability).

As for being able to get matching units, I'm not too concerned about it, I'm thinking these(being 10" speakers) won't be very good for bass or drum monitors because of the limited bass response(correct me if I'm wrong). Ultimately I'd like to get a couple of 15" monitors for them or get new mains and use the current mains for monitor duty. These yamaha's (or the Alto's) would be primarily for the keyboard player and electric/acoustic guitar players; right now until more monitors are bought they'd be used as side washes.

Not having a warranty is a concern, does anybody know how reliable these speakers are?

Thanks,
Tommy Peel
Title: Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Jason Andreasen on March 18, 2013, 01:53:39 PM
Sorry to re-resurrect this thread (it's close to Easter time, so I figure that's permissible).  Just thought I'd throw in my 2¢ on the IEM vs wedge topic.  This is based on my experience over the past several years and what we've found works well for us. 

About 7 years ago we moved into a new/bigger building.  Prior to that, we used a pretty rudimentary "IEM" system for the band - Rolls headphone amps with some decent Sony over-ear headphones, along with electronic drums.  The vocalists still used wedges.  In that building it was a necessity - terrible acoustics, and even the vocal wedges with almost no band mixed in tended to over power the main PA. 

When we moved to the new building, we were all excited because we could get rid of the headphones and use monitors.  We didn't have enough monitor mixes, and we were constantly getting into the "more me" spiral, so we always had issues with stage volume.  Every couple of months we'd have to remind everyone on stage to keep their levels down, and we'd force a "reset" on the monitor mixes to try to get it back under control.  Inevitably it would spiral out of control again.  Acoustic drums, bass amps, Marshall half-stacks, etc. 

A few years ago we moved to the Aviom system, moved amps off stage, enclosed the drums, etc.  The improvement in sound quality was astonishing - we're not running the overall congregation mix any quieter (in fact, maybe just a hair louder), but the clarity and intelligibility is a million times better.  I'm not sure if that qualifies as "cartoonish" sounding, but what we had before with the massive stage volume was just mush in the congregation and to be honest very fatiguing on the ears.  Now the sound guy actually has some control, and best of all each person on stage can control their mix and hear exactly what they want. 

That said, even a simple IEM system (should probably be calling this a "personal monitoring system") using the Rolls or Behringer headphone amps and relatively inexpensive IEM headphones could work extremely well if stage volume is a real issue.  As someone who has to deal with both ends of it (playing on stage sometimes, and running FOH sound some times), I think the benefits far outweigh the cons.  Yes, it does take a little time to get used to the "IEM sound" - it's very different from a wedge.  Stereo and ambience mics are not a necessity - nice if you can swing it, but you can still have a very effective IEM system without them.  I'd take a mono IEM system with no ambience any day over a wedge system and ringing ears after a set.
Title: Re: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Tommy Peel on March 18, 2013, 04:35:03 PM
Sorry to re-resurrect this thread (it's close to Easter time, so I figure that's permissible).  Just thought I'd throw in my 2¢ on the IEM vs wedge topic.  This is based on my experience over the past several years and what we've found works well for us. 

About 7 years ago we moved into a new/bigger building.  Prior to that, we used a pretty rudimentary "IEM" system for the band - Rolls headphone amps with some decent Sony over-ear headphones, along with electronic drums.  The vocalists still used wedges.  In that building it was a necessity - terrible acoustics, and even the vocal wedges with almost no band mixed in tended to over power the main PA. 

When we moved to the new building, we were all excited because we could get rid of the headphones and use monitors.  We didn't have enough monitor mixes, and we were constantly getting into the "more me" spiral, so we always had issues with stage volume.  Every couple of months we'd have to remind everyone on stage to keep their levels down, and we'd force a "reset" on the monitor mixes to try to get it back under control.  Inevitably it would spiral out of control again.  Acoustic drums, bass amps, Marshall half-stacks, etc. 

A few years ago we moved to the Aviom system, moved amps off stage, enclosed the drums, etc.  The improvement in sound quality was astonishing - we're not running the overall congregation mix any quieter (in fact, maybe just a hair louder), but the clarity and intelligibility is a million times better.  I'm not sure if that qualifies as "cartoonish" sounding, but what we had before with the massive stage volume was just mush in the congregation and to be honest very fatiguing on the ears.  Now the sound guy actually has some control, and best of all each person on stage can control their mix and hear exactly what they want. 

That said, even a simple IEM system (should probably be calling this a "personal monitoring system") using the Rolls or Behringer headphone amps and relatively inexpensive IEM headphones could work extremely well if stage volume is a real issue.  As someone who has to deal with both ends of it (playing on stage sometimes, and running FOH sound some times), I think the benefits far outweigh the cons.  Yes, it does take a little time to get used to the "IEM sound" - it's very different from a wedge.  Stereo and ambience mics are not a necessity - nice if you can swing it, but you can still have a very effective IEM system without them.  I'd take a mono IEM system with no ambience any day over a wedge system and ringing ears after a set.

Thanks for another perspective. We haven't bought anything yet so, the thread is still very much relevant to us. Our stage volume is fairly under control; the only amp that's up very loud is the bass amp(when we get some subs and monitors we'll probably stop using it and get a SansAmp or similar product and ditch the bass amp) which keeps us from having to out too much of it through the mains. The electric guitar amp is mic'd, kept at a reasonable level, and aimed at the players head. I'd say the worst of the stage volume is from the drums, especially when the drummer gets "excited".  ;D

Thanks,
Tommy Peel
Title: Re: Monitors for Band: IEMs or wedges
Post by: Jerome Malsack on March 19, 2013, 01:46:28 PM
I like the article on the Elite core to allow the IEM connection to a headphone amplifier. 

http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/church_sound_rehabbing_mic_stands_extending_personal_mixer_cables/church

If you pick the Behringer 4700 or 4600 they have an aux input plus the mix.  If the mixer has the Direct output for each channel you can take a tap from the direct output into the Behringer Aux input and have the more me.