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Title: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Nick Perry on January 01, 2013, 01:21:14 AM
Hi all

Recently had a idea that could well be the future of digital consoles. I am sure I'm not the first person either.

DigiCo have shown us that they can provide huge amounts dynamically assignable DSP. This makes their desks very flexible with aux/group/matrix assignments etc...

The next step could well be based on:

- Central DSP unit with expansion.
- Virtual consoles (same concept as with VMware in the computer world)
- Dante connectivity (Dante is rapidly growing and connectivity is available for almost all popular live sound consoles)
- Multiple options for control surfaces. Physical and software (iPad, web based)

This would allow best use of the very powerfull FPGA DSP DigiCo is currently using.

Combined with a very slick GUI this would allow a very flexible audio system.

For example:
- 1 virtual console FOH (27 busses plus dual solo)
- 2 virtual monitor consoles (35busses each plus dual solo)

This would also open up options such as combined or separate channel strips etc between consoles...lots of variations possible.

Interested to hear people's thoughts of this.


Cheers

Nick
Title: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Ryan Ainsworth on January 01, 2013, 01:30:42 AM
My prediction leans towards people using a DSP engine, an I/O box, and a big toy screen monitor. I think we'll see touchscreens a become a standard over the next decade or so. As much as we all love having physical faders, I think they could go the way of the buffalo. I used the Yamaha StageMix app to mix a few shows with an M7, and I was in love. Best parametric Q control ever.
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Frank DeWitt on January 01, 2013, 05:27:21 AM
It seems the way to go.  There was a reason for putting the preamp, the routing, and all the controls in the same box but that reason is gone.  A good analog console has a large number of mixers built into it but we call them Auxes.  Separate them out into more control surfaces. one for FOH one for radio or TV feed, ETC. At the next gig click on the GUI that puts the auxes together in a traditional format.
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Keith Broughton on January 01, 2013, 08:21:08 AM
My prediction leans towards people using a DSP engine, an I/O box, and a big toy screen monitor. I think we'll see touchscreens a become a standard over the next decade or so. As much as we all love having physical faders, I think they could go the way of the buffalo. I used the Yamaha StageMix app to mix a few shows with an M7, and I was in love. Best parametric Q control ever.
Think LARGE touch screens. Big enough to be a full control surface.
"And sir, it's wafer thin" ...  ;D
As for the iPad...cool but "best Q control ever"?... not so much in love.
Still a very useful item for walking the room or setting monitors.
Wouldn't want to mix a show on one.
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on January 01, 2013, 11:00:08 AM
My prediction (years ago) is for console as separate function goes away with the technology embedded inside powered speakers and wireless microphones. Components that will never go away. 

The mix engineer interface hasn't been completely invented (yet) but will be an evolution on game controllers, and glasses that project a heads up image, and cameras that watch and interpret hand movements.

The interface is a little futuristic and will be embraced first by a younger generation of operators who grew up using similar technology to play games.

or not.... the future hasn't happened yet.

JR

PS: I also predict major changes in what mix operators still have to control. The things that don't change from gig to gig, should not have to be tweaked every time, so the operator can deal only with the smaller subset of parameters that benefit from human judgement.
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 01, 2013, 11:35:00 AM
PS: I also predict major changes in what mix operators still have to control. The things that don't change from gig to gig, should not have to be tweaked every time, so the operator can deal only with the smaller subset of parameters that benefit from human judgement.

One fit seizes all?
Title: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Sam Feine on January 01, 2013, 11:48:11 AM
It seems like the original concept is already somewhat realized by the SAC software. It would however be very nice to see it built into a desk with an actual control surface.
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Caleb Dueck on January 01, 2013, 12:22:40 PM
Is SAC popular because it's so powerful and easy to use, or because it's cheap?  With as often as Behringer preamps are mentioned, it seems like the latter. 

Would users pay $15k-$35k for a SAC all in one?  What would differentiate it from all the other established options? 

Back to the original question, a closed source mixer that is the same today in the US as next week in Europe is important.  The whole is higher than the pile of parts. 
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Chris Johnson [UK] on January 01, 2013, 01:23:04 PM
Interesting.

First off, its not just digico who uses FPGA processing. They are just the only people who make live sound consoles who do. In the broadcast world, this is commonplace.

Secondly, what you are describing, with seperate control surfaces and DSP kind of already exists, again, particularly in the broadcast world.

I'm sure more modularity will make it into more cost effective live sound products, at the moment, its really just A&H who adopt this model (iLive...).

But lets not base it on Dante... Dante is very clever and makes great use of existing network infrastructure. But simpler point to point systems like AES (Madi) are more reliable, and don't require so much ethernet hoop-jumping. Madi over fibre is the way to go. cheap and reliable. No weird clocking schemes, etc...

Dante is like powerline ethernet. If you've got a network, and you need to send audio down it, its great. But that doesn't mean we should now only ever send ethernet down power cables... Its added complexity. It would be better to just run an ethernet cable where possible. Same with audio. Serial data streams with no switching are the way to go.
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Frank DeWitt on January 01, 2013, 01:32:22 PM
Is SAC popular because it's so powerful and easy to use, or because it's cheap?  With as often as Behringer preamps are mentioned, it seems like the latter. 


SAC is popular with me because it is powerful and easy to use, and being modular it can grow.  As a example, We added 10 IEM channels to it last year.  It required 10 used laptops and a headphone amp. 

I had a video guy ask me 15 minutes before a wedding  if he could have a few audio channels mixed for his video.  I had already set up a mix layout with just the 7 channels that were in use.  I made a clone on a new mixer, handed him a cable and a laptop and told him to take what he wanted.   I also like that because it is modular, I was able to build it completely Behringer free and have it reliable.
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Mark McFarlane on January 01, 2013, 04:56:44 PM
Think LARGE touch screens. Big enough to be a full control surface.
"And sir, it's wafer thin" ...  ;D
As for the iPad...cool but "best Q control ever"?... not so much in love.
Still a very useful item for walking the room or setting monitors.
Wouldn't want to mix a show on one.

48" touch screen console: Slate Raven: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY5NiBpasj4 (it's actually a DAW controller but it shows the potential).
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: kristianjohnsen on January 01, 2013, 05:16:38 PM
48" touch screen console: Slate Raven: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY5NiBpasj4 (it's actually a DAW controller but it shows the potential).

To me, even the guy who's selling the screen seems rather clumsy while having to click stuff more than once because the screen doesn't register the first time, etc...

You know when you're waiting for "that" part of a song where you need to mute the reverb and unmute the delay?  Resting my fingertips on the front panel of the mixer, barely touching the mute switches, and just "rolling" my fingers to hit the mutes is the only way that works for me. 

Sometimes I move 7 drum faders with one hand.  It's not super-accurate, but it's fast and works really well, even if I'm not even touching all the faders with the tip of a finger. 

I don't see things like this working on touch screens. Which is pretty much why I hate them.
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Spenser Hamilton on January 01, 2013, 08:14:28 PM
To me, even the guy who's selling the screen seems rather clumsy while having to click stuff more than once because the screen doesn't register the first time, etc...

You know when you're waiting for "that" part of a song where you need to mute the reverb and unmute the delay?  Resting my fingertips on the front panel of the mixer, barely touching the mute switches, and just "rolling" my fingers to hit the mutes is the only way that works for me. 

Sometimes I move 7 drum faders with one hand.  It's not super-accurate, but it's fast and works really well, even if I'm not even touching all the faders with the tip of a finger. 

I don't see things like this working on touch screens. Which is pretty much why I hate them.

+1, you can't hover your finger over a mute button very well on a touch screen, and if you have to grab a fader in a hurry...
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Kevin McDonough on January 01, 2013, 09:41:54 PM
hey

yeah I have to agree with most of what's said here, you can never really get rid of a proper set of faders and stuff to control a large show, need access to too many functions and controls at once.

However I do see things going down the "iLive" route as processing improves further, where the audio inputs, A/D andD/A conversion, processing and everything else all happens in one central box on stage (with the ability to connect many in a network if/when needed) and the surfaces are just big remote controls. 

k
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Randall Hyde on January 01, 2013, 09:58:09 PM
My prediction leans towards people using a DSP engine, an I/O box, and a big toy screen monitor. I think we'll see touchscreens a become a standard over the next decade or so. As much as we all love having physical faders, I think they could go the way of the buffalo. I used the Yamaha StageMix app to mix a few shows with an M7, and I was in love. Best parametric Q control ever.

Touch screens really suck for live audio.
Tried it with SAC, completely problematic for me.
Worse, if you do outdoor gigs (particularly in grass fields), bugs landing on the touch screen have the habit of triggering mutes and the like; not a good thing in the middle of a show.

Give me physical faders so I can adjust things by feel while watching the performers on stage. Having to look at the touch screen in order to adjust something really slows down the workflow.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde

Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Mac Kerr on January 01, 2013, 10:02:43 PM
However I do see things going down the "iLive" route as processing improves further, where the audio inputs, A/D andD/A conversion, processing and everything else all happens in one central box on stage (with the ability to connect many in a network if/when needed) and the surfaces are just big remote controls. 

I would take it farther. There won't be one central box on stage, there will be I/O boxes wherever they are needed. AD/DA conversion will take place there, DSP processing may as well, or may happen in a central box the remote boxes connect to. This is the way large scale digital consoles started out. It was the PM5D that popularized the all in one box concept. The PM1D had a DSP frame with remote I/O boxes connected to a control surface that was essentially a big remote control. Large frame studio consoles worked the same way.

Mac
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Randall Hyde on January 01, 2013, 10:06:54 PM
Is SAC popular because it's so powerful and easy to use, or because it's cheap?  With as often as Behringer preamps are mentioned, it seems like the latter. 
Bang for buck, unquestioned.

Quote
Would users pay $15k-$35k for a SAC all in one?  What would differentiate it from all the other established options? 
I've spent about $25K on two SAC setups (A and B rig).
Though a lot of that money was for control surfaces that SAC poorly supports and I rarely use (not that I wouldn't love good control surface support, that SAC's biggest drawback in my opinion).

SAC is great for the owner/operator sound company. I think the learning curve is a bit too high for a soundco with lots of employees and you'll never rent SAC systems out to people without also providing an operator.
The big problem is that you really need to be a (computer) systems integrator and network administrator to effectively use SAC and track down problems in the field. Sure, that's becoming a requirement for more and more digital boards these days, but SAC requires that capability in spades. It's dangerous for me to send some employees into the field; 7 times out of 10 I get phone calls complaining about how something isn't working. Often, it's something stupid like they've plugged a network cable into the wrong socket on the router (why they keep sticking it in the modem jack is beyond me) or they've forgotten how to turn on the wireless on the laptop, but you generally don't see these kinds of problems with "standard" digital desks. And God help you if an optical cable pops out of the sound card (even I will take some time to track that problem down).

But as for the sound, with decent preamps (e.g., Focusrite Octopre Mk II Dynamic units), the sound is pretty damn amazing for such a low cost system (say $5,000 for a 24-32 channel SAC rig) and the plethora of plugins lets you do lots of things that just aren't possible on the lower-cost digital desks.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Rick Earl on January 01, 2013, 10:19:23 PM
I hate to say this, but I think some of the lighting companies are on the right track.  You buy  DSP as you need  multiple I/O boxes.  You add a central control "brain".  Then add interface as needed.  If you're happy with the IPAD then that is all you need, but  if you want faders, add a fader bank.   Similar to the old side cars for analog desks.   Fader banks could be networked too so they are not just at FOH.   There is similar stuff out for DAW control, but not a complete system.   
It would be like taking Yamaha's CL1 and adding fader banks and maybe more touch screens as needed so you could build it up to a CL5 or even more, have 128 faders at your fingertips if you want.
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Randall Hyde on January 01, 2013, 11:05:04 PM
I hate to say this, but I think some of the lighting companies are on the right track.  You buy  DSP as you need  multiple I/O boxes.  You add a central control "brain".  Then add interface as needed.  If you're happy with the IPAD then that is all you need, but  if you want faders, add a fader bank.   Similar to the old side cars for analog desks.   Fader banks could be networked too so they are not just at FOH.   There is similar stuff out for DAW control, but not a complete system.   
It would be like taking Yamaha's CL1 and adding fader banks and maybe more touch screens as needed so you could build it up to a CL5 or even more, have 128 faders at your fingertips if you want.

Well, except for the "buy DSP as you need it" you've largely described SAC.
Perhaps SAC's greatest attribute beyond "bang for the buck" is the fact that it is extremely modular and you can add components to the system as you want.  E.g., you can start with a small 8-channel system and expand up from there. Add plugins for effects. Kinda add control surfaces for your faders (SAC biggest weakness is the number of types of control surfaces supported, IMO).

FOH, monitor world, individual performer networked faders -- really easy to add.
In theory, you can add lots of different control surfaces (one per networked node added to the system); in practice they won't work together as seamlessly as you might like.

SAC does have some limitations. First, it runs off a single PC so there are some upper limits on the amount of expandability -- currently it's 72 input channels, 72 output channels, and 16 groups/DCAs; though for most shows that really need a larger system, I can't imagine SAC being spec'd for the job.  OTOH, the 72-channel I/O limitation has been with SAC for years now (back from the core 2 duo days) so I suspect there's no technical reason why SAC couldn't be expanded to more channels on modern CPUs.

SAC doesn't support iPad control (directly), but several Windows tablets (x86 variants) will work fine with SAC. I happen to use an HP TouchSmart tablet/laptop on my SAC system and will be interested in investing in a Microsoft Surface Pro if it turns out to work well with SAC.

SAC isn't for the weak of heart; it takes a lot of effort to learn how to use SAC well. But it is, by far, the most modular system out there and is quite easy to expand from a small to a medium-sized system.

I just wish it had better support for physical control surfaces. That's a show-stopper for many people.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Caleb Dueck on January 02, 2013, 12:12:58 AM
Two types of people.  One, like myself, wants to turn on a product and use it.  No drama.  The other wants to save and pinch every penny possible, and is willing to constantly "tinker".  A SAC style approach doesn't fit me, but that doesn't mean others won't benefit.

The trick is having scalable/flexible without needing to "tinker". 
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Nick Perry on January 02, 2013, 02:40:33 AM
Two types of people.  One, like myself, wants to turn on a product and use it.  No drama.  The other wants to save and pinch every penny possible, and is willing to constantly "tinker".  A SAC style approach doesn't fit me, but that doesn't mean others won't benefit.

The trick is having scalable/flexible without needing to "tinker".

 I agree totally.

The real value of having central DSP would be having 3 or 4 virtual consoles inside it. With the DSP available today this is possible. Add as much DSP or I/O as you want. Add a second core brain if you want redundancy.

As for a control surface use a physical surface, iPad or touchscreen. This opens up lots of possibilities for personal monitor mixing also. Some musicans can get 6 to 8 stems while others get 20-30 if required. This really would change the way we do things and simplify setup.

As Mac said also, I/O can be onstage as required instead of running 100 foot multicores around the stage etc...less to setup, short cables and overall happiness. We are starting to see this today to some effect, but overall pricing and simple connectivity needs to be worked on to make this standard
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Frank DeWitt on January 02, 2013, 04:39:34 AM
Two types of people.  One, like myself, wants to turn on a product and use it.  No drama.  The other wants to save and pinch every penny possible, and is willing to constantly "tinker".  A SAC style approach doesn't fit me, but that doesn't mean others won't benefit.

The trick is having scalable/flexible without needing to "tinker".

There are probably those who constantly tinker with SAC and it has enough features and "ways in" that they can.  They are like the person who constantly tinkers with a home theater system and rarely watches a full movie on it. I am a third type of person. I turn on SAC and use it.  No drama.  There was drama at the beginning as I built it and learned it. If it had continued I would be using a different mixer now.
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Per Sovik on January 02, 2013, 05:50:28 AM
iLive to me is very close in concept already, the theme just needs some slight expansion. A system that allows a fairly unlimited number of rack-modules to be connected together and interfaced via a high speed bus interface, and be controlled by any number of surfaces, virtual or other, similar to what A&H is already offering. Adding a large touch-screen virtual surface will be no risk at all, the ones that don't want it can still have the option of real faders.
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Peter Morris on January 02, 2013, 06:08:25 AM
iLive to me is very close in concept already, the theme just needs some slight expansion. A system that allows a fairly unlimited number of rack-modules to be connected together and interfaced via a high speed bus interface, and be controlled by any number of surfaces, virtual or other, similar to what A&H is already offering. Adding a large touch-screen virtual surface will be no risk at all, the ones that don't want it can still have the option of real faders.

+1 … exactly what I was thinking.

I have 144 and 80 surfaces, but I have used a 25 inch touch screen computer as the control surface. Worked quite well, and I suspect it will be even better on Windows 8, but I think I will always prefer a dedicated surface.
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Jim McKeveny on January 02, 2013, 06:56:32 AM
One thing for sure: We will drop the "digital" ahead of "console" as it becomes an unnecessary vestige....
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Bob Cap on January 02, 2013, 09:25:57 AM
I have been in this business full time since 1971.

I remember when monitor consoles were very uncommon.

The fun part is watching the tech changes over the years.

I have an 8 year old grandson. Very into computers, games etc.

He just about has the presonus 16 we have in control... Then we move him up to the 24 and then up to the LS9's.

I know he'll take over some day.

I think as we see the "younger" generation comming into our business we will see more "kids" with much better computer skills than we have. For them to get around on a mixer that is only a touch screen is a piece of cake.

He already can do almost anything on the IPad. He loves watching the faders on the LS9 move when he moves them on the IPad.

I really think faders will go the way of many other pieces of gear we now consider essential.

Move over dinosaures...man is on the way:) Or is he already here?

Bob Cap
AAI
Gilbert, MN



Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Chris Eddison on January 02, 2013, 09:35:25 AM
We're seeing more and more distributed intelligence in systems, particularly those that are safety and business critical. "Cloud computing" seems to be becoming more and more accepted. Why not extend that to a closed live sound network? Stageboxes connected by ethernet or maybe even wifi, each doing their own bit of processing.
I think the big thing we'll start to see though is the integration of currently seperate systems. We're seeing amp and system control via ethernet. Could this start to be integrated into the Dante (or whatever) network and maybe run on the console? Soundcraft already allow monitoring of certain radio mics from the channel strip of their digital consoles. Imagine setting your amp gains, setting your radio mic frequencies, carrying out system allignment and Smaart-style analysis, then playing back your show content from the console itself.

In terms of the surface itself, i've watched with interest as the lighting folk have started heading towards PC wings. I think the crux of all the arguments above is that people want different things - some want touch screens, some want a fader per channel, some just want their DCA's and a few channel faders. Why not then build a completely modular system that allows you to buy just what you want? You could have the surface processor - need only be a small pc as the DSP is done elsewhere or in the cloud. May as well have a touch screen as it's probably the easiest way of configuring and setting the thing up, but it could also have mouse and keyboard connections. Then you add your fader wings via USB. They need be no bigger than a computer keyboard - just look at the Korg nanopad units available. You can arrange them in banks of faders if you like your M7CL's, or just have one and lots of layers if you're a Midas fan. If you get really fancy you could arrange them in a curve around you. Maybe protocals like OSC could be used, then third party interfaces could be built for specific industries, with a common language behind them.
The point is, there's actually no need to decide which way to do things on behalf of all the console's users - they can all pick and lay their desk out exactly how they want.
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Greg_Cameron on January 02, 2013, 10:36:49 AM
What I'd really like to see is virtual outboard gear in the form of lightweight rack mountable touch screens with rotary encoders. One of the biggest shortcomings of the move to digital consoles which get more and more compact every year is that it's impossible to see everything that's going on at once with not just all your channels on the surface, but all of your processing like gates, comps, and FX. In that sense, it's been a huge step backward in my opinion. I do like working on my Venue, but you can't quickly manipulate multiple effect plugins on the fly without digging through screens. It's bullshit. Sure, if I was a touring ME with the same act every night, I could do up a scene for every tune and have all my effects, compressors, etc, all preprogrammed and dialed up. But that's impossible for the rest of us. I want the same ease of use where I had a rack with my verbs and delays where I can just reach for a knob and dial up an effect or quickly switch a parameter on a gate or compressor.

IMO, it will be a big coup for the first manufacture who comes up with relatively inexpensive virtual outboard that can be configured to have whatever "rack gear" you want. You should be able to hook up as many of these units as you want with simple cable like ethernet which can be daisy chained. They should come in varying sizes of 1,2 or 3RU. Maybe even really large units that can have muitiple virtual processors on one screen so long as the rotary encoders can be laid out logically. They should be able to be assignable as any channel or group processing you wish to have full time access too. And of course, they should also be able to change what piece of processing they are via scene recall too. Maybe I'm crazy, but this seems like functionality that should have been implemented long ago and I find it shocking that it hasn't. The lack of this type of functionality is a major step backward.

For my workflow right now, I'd like to have all my group processing show up full time in these racks along with my verbs and delays. I can live without my channel inserts in the virtual racks, but even some of those would be nice to have full time access to as well.
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on January 02, 2013, 11:17:15 AM
What I'd really like to see is virtual outboard gear in the form of lightweight rack mountable touch screens with rotary encoders. One of the biggest shortcomings of the move to digital consoles which get more and more compact every year is that it's impossible to see everything that's going on at once with not just all your channels on the surface, but all of your processing like gates, comps, and FX. In that sense, it's been a huge step backward in my opinion. I do like working on my Venue, but you can't quickly manipulate multiple effect plugins on the fly without digging through screens. It's bullshit. Sure, if I was a touring ME with the same act every night, I could do up a scene for every tune and have all my effects, compressors, etc, all preprogrammed and dialed up. But that's impossible for the rest of us. I want the same ease of use where I had a rack with my verbs and delays where I can just reach for a knob and dial up an effect or quickly switch a parameter on a gate or compressor.

IMO, it will be a big coup for the first manufacture who comes up with relatively inexpensive virtual outboard that can be configured to have whatever "rack gear" you want. You should be able to hook up as many of these units as you want with simple cable like ethernet which can be daisy chained. They should come in varying sizes of 1,2 or 3RU. Maybe even really large units that can have muitiple virtual processors on one screen so long as the rotary encoders can be laid out logically. They should be able to be assignable as any channel or group processing you wish to have full time access too. And of course, they should also be able to change what piece of processing they are via scene recall too. Maybe I'm crazy, but this seems like functionality that should have been implemented long ago and I find it shocking that it hasn't. The lack of this type of functionality is a major step backward.

For my workflow right now, I'd like to have all my group processing show up full time in these racks along with my verbs and delays. I can live without my channel inserts in the virtual racks, but even some of those would be nice to have full time access to as well.
Interesting.. you want to break out more real-time control, while my crystal ball predicts a future with less hands-on tweaking. 

The technology to accomplish what you ask for is no big deal, but finding a large enough market to justify making one is another story.

JR
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Greg_Cameron on January 02, 2013, 11:32:30 AM
Interesting.. you want to break out more real-time control, while my crystal ball predicts a future with less hands-on tweaking. 

The technology to accomplish what you ask for is no big deal, but finding a large enough market to justify making one is another story.

Well JR, until they invent the brain implant to control the console, we still have to use our fingers and eyes ;) This is where I think digital has missed the boat. Aside from the usual complaints of having to navigate layers on the surface and learning the workflow for different brands, lack of easy instant control of the outboard is the number 1 complaint I hear from every visiting BE that comes to use our Venue desk. Yet it's rarely talked about on forums. Good friend and mentor Dave Rat wrote an article about it last year and it's the major reason why he still won't switch to digital desks now that the sonic issues seem to be worked out. I think there is a market for it and it should be an option with the more pricey desks.
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Frank DeWitt on January 02, 2013, 12:19:05 PM
The last 4 or f posts are interesting, and exactly what i want as well.

It's digital, it has a Graphic User Interface.  That means it should be up to me how I lay it out.

Seldom tweak effects? leave them hidden.
Want them easy to get to and always in the same place, then I should be able to open the window for each one, buy a 3rd or 4th 20 inch screen for $100 and drag them where I want them. 
But I want real controls, OK I knuckle under and buy the rack mount USB connected encoder and small LCD displays and stack them up.  Click on the right boxes in setup, apply the overlays to make them effects controls and I am set.

I think that would be a winner.

I can't do all that with SAC  (The GUI is not it's strong suit) but I was able to decide that I want to be able to see every fader and arrange them in a way that is logical to me.   I was able to create one button recalls for scenes, and do some other things to personalize it. 

I hope that is where digital is going.
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Simon Ryder on January 02, 2013, 12:43:42 PM
Well JR, until they invent the brain implant to control the console, we still have to use our fingers and eyes ;) This is where I think digital has missed the boat. Aside from the usual complaints of having to navigate layers on the surface and learning the workflow for different brands, lack of easy instant control of the outboard is the number 1 complaint I hear from every visiting BE that comes to use our Venue desk. Yet it's rarely talked about on forums. Good friend and mentor Dave Rat wrote an article about it last year and it's the major reason why he still won't switch to digital desks now that the sonic issues seem to be worked out. I think there is a market for it and it should be an option with the more pricey desks.

I would say that there is a market for it with anybody who likes to MIX. There are many of us out there. Mixing to me is an organic flowing art form that is about putting as few processes in the way of it as possible. All the time we have to engage "tech brain" and press 12 buttons to get to where we can make an adjustment removes that organic artistic process and puts us back in logic brain mode.

The mixing "art" is currently being sacrificed on the alter of convenience and wow factor. Simple and what you know are actually the best things for achieving a stellar mix. Not watching your talent whilst you hunt through layers to be able to grab the feedback control on the snare delay means you can't then hit that vocal delay cue etc.

I am not against digital at all, the sound quality is there now, they contain so many amazing and useful features and the price points are right. The problem is many of them are a complete PITA to mix on.

I wish somebody would release one that sounds great, has the ability to work on more than one channel simultaneously (maybe 4 ch?) with hard pots and controls for each main function without layer switching on EQ or auxes etc. Also I want to see hard controls for say 2 x effects engines to be accessed at once, with all parameters appearing as hardware buttons.

Accessibility, ergonomics and speed are the 3 things that NOBODY has yet got right in the digital world in my opinion.

Lets have a little more focus on making the desks a joy to mix on - rather than insisting that the engineer becomes constrained by the designer's mindset.

Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Brad Weber on January 02, 2013, 12:47:05 PM
I look at it in several general ways.  The first is the difference between a mixer as a single device versus a mixing system with multiple integrated devices.  The latter certainly has advantages but also has additional considerations in terms of multiple variations on systems, interconnections to address and so on.
 
The second is the difference between a personal mixer and a mixer for use by others or by multiple others.  For example, SAC intrigues my as something for my own use but I am not sold on its use for schools, public venues, rentals, etc. where the users may be numerous and varied.
 
Finally, are we facing a new paradigm in terms of useful life and depreciation?  Are we looking at mixers having a likely effective useful life more like that of a computer than that of an amplifier or speaker?  Is a mixer going to become a 2-5 year investment rather than a 5-10 year one?
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 02, 2013, 01:07:02 PM
Well then...

I had a long, winding reply written to Simon and then Brad Weber posts his three paragraphs.

+1, Brad.

Simon, I got into this business because I'm a mixerperson at heart and motivation.  The analog mixer form factor evolved in a pretty linear (literally) fashion for 40-something years.  As John Roberts has pointed out, the current crop of digital mixers are "transitional" in terms of UI.  Users like us want physical controls and lots of them because that's the way we learned... all our muscle memory, all of our conditioned responses are recorded and recalled for using a big analog mixer and outboard racks.  Change isn't easy and shouldn't be thought of as trivial.  OTOH, Bob Capp's 8 year old grandson is not burdened by a legacy UI or experience.  Should he have grandpa's "audio curse" and go into the biz, he will develop physical operation techniques to utilize the tools of the day and influence the development of new (or retro) tools.

I'm all about using whatever tool works for you, but as an Olde Skool Analogue Guy®, I must say I enjoy the new digiboards all the kids are excited about.  Although I'm primarily a system guy these days, I've been mixing more support acts and getting my chops back.  I'm developing work flow that makes sense, that gives me access to controls where/when I need them.  It's not the same as a PM4K or XL200, but I can still turn out a satisfactory mix.  And FWIW, I haven't mixed a show for our shop on analog FOH for at least 2 years.  The times have changed.
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Nick Enright on January 02, 2013, 01:25:03 PM
The mixing "art" is currently being sacrificed on the alter of convenience and wow factor. Simple and what you know are actually the best things for achieving a stellar mix. Not watching your talent whilst you hunt through layers to be able to grab the feedback control on the snare delay means you can't then hit that vocal delay cue etc.

Also it seems to me that at some level the art of mixing is an interactive art with the band and the audience being the viewers. At some level doesn't the absolute repeat-ability of a show/mix detract from the live nature of it? Leaving the soundguy to the level of technical and trouble shooting, and not providing the creative essence of why we mainly only get paid to push big black boxes around?

(Honestly, I'm also not mixing at the levels that many of you are and have about 3-days (small festival) on a digital board, and liked it)

Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Greg_Cameron on January 02, 2013, 01:39:29 PM
Accessibility, ergonomics and speed are the 3 things that NOBODY has yet got right in the digital world in my opinion.

Lets have a little more focus on making the desks a joy to mix on - rather than insisting that the engineer becomes constrained by the designer's mindset.

Bravo! I concur. I bet the reps for many of these mixer companies are watching this thread. I actually added my feature request for virtual outboard to Avid's Venue feature suggestion site. Maybe someone will listen. It's seems like a relatively logical and simple idea to me. But since it hasn't been done yet, maybe it's not.
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on January 02, 2013, 01:45:20 PM
Well JR, until they invent the brain implant to control the console, we still have to use our fingers and eyes ;) This is where I think digital has missed the boat. Aside from the usual complaints of having to navigate layers on the surface and learning the workflow for different brands, lack of easy instant control of the outboard is the number 1 complaint I hear from every visiting BE that comes to use our Venue desk. Yet it's rarely talked about on forums. Good friend and mentor Dave Rat wrote an article about it last year and it's the major reason why he still won't switch to digital desks now that the sonic issues seem to be worked out. I think there is a market for it and it should be an option with the more pricey desks.

I am an old analog dog but have been designing with digital for over a decade now and think people are missing the full story about digital. This goes far beyond digital being a more robust version of analog audio for storage and handling.

No the huge ass difference not being talked about is that digital technology is capable of decision making. No it's not going to replace human cognition any time soon, but mixing a show is not exactly rocket science either (sorry no offense). Digital decision making is surely adequate to supplant lots of the low level objective decisions now, with the potential to handle more as computers and software developers get smarter. The higher level subjective aspects can still remain under human control, but as software gets better and easier to drive the artist may be able to handle the subjective aspects of a performance from stage.  8)

One paradigm shift I have suggested in the past is mixing to results targets or response templates, rather than +/- whatever from whatever. Presumably we don't want a wildly different output every performance, while we must deal with different inputs every time. Anything that can be measured can be managed, with a smart enough plan. 

This is not trivial or it would already be done, but don't expect your grandchildren to be mixing live sound into their golden years, even if you might  8)

JR
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Simon Ryder on January 02, 2013, 02:00:51 PM
It's not the same as a PM4K or XL200, but I can still turn out a satisfactory mix.  And FWIW, I haven't mixed a show for our shop on analog FOH for at least 2 years.  The times have changed.

As you say, it really is a transitional period. There are now engineers out there who have never mixed on analogue!

What is being fitted into the digital boards today is incredible. I have used the XL8, Digico SD7, Avid Venue, Vi6, PM5D etc and most of the smaller boards. And to someone who cam into this in the mid '90s, what they are achieving today and the quality is amazing.

The power of tools being used now is tremendous and on every single one of these desks,don't get me wrong, a superb mix is possible.

The trouble is, sometimes I feel that that mix is occurring despite the interface rather than because of it. Like, I'm sure, any other experienced engineer, I hear what needs to be done and know exactly what I am going to do before I touch a button. Where I get frustrated is when I am sometimes sacrificing an adjustment in favour of another because of the limits caused by the operating interface.

The trade off is of course some facilities that are only really usable in the digital domain.

I am again these days carrying an effects rack with me for use when doing certain types of music where I need fast adjustment of multiple parameters on different units simultaneously. (Dub and psychedelic rock for example)

I guess what I am hoping is that someone releases more not less control surface.

These could be touch screen panels with their own independent assigns. I am quite happy to swap knobs for sliders on a touch screen.

48 faders per layer are also a big plus for me - I like to see and be able to adjust immediately.

I am quite happy to use a touch screen tablet to assist in system tune, make select adjustments to a mix whilst out in the crowd, or tune monitor mixes but I would hate to have to try and mix a complex show on one.


As it happens, the desk that I still most want to use for FOH is an XL4 though now with a PRO2 as an extension board for FX return routing, system routing etc. The large rack of outboard is a must still though.

The desk I most want to use in monitor world is an M7 or a Vi6. It's a speed thing and they both really excel in monitor world IMHO.
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Simon Ryder on January 02, 2013, 02:03:04 PM
I am an old analog dog but have been designing with digital for over a decade now and think people are missing the full story about digital. This goes far beyond digital being a more robust version of analog audio for storage and handling.

No the huge ass difference not being talked about is that digital technology is capable of decision making. No it's not going to replace human cognition any time soon, but mixing a show is not exactly rocket science either (sorry no offense). Digital decision making is surely adequate to supplant lots of the low level objective decisions now, with the potential to handle more as computers and software developers get smarter. The higher level subjective aspects can still remain under human control, but as software gets better and easier to drive the artist may be able to handle the subjective aspects of a performance from stage.  8)

One paradigm shift I have suggested in the past is mixing to results targets or response templates, rather than +/- whatever from whatever. Presumably we don't want a wildly different output every performance, while we must deal with different inputs every time. Anything that can be measured can be managed, with a smart enough plan. 

This is not trivial or it would already be done, but don't expect your grandchildren to be mixing live sound into their golden years, even if you might  8)

JR


I so hope that you are wrong JR! :'( :'(

Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Greg_Cameron on January 02, 2013, 02:13:40 PM
I am an old analog dog but have been designing with digital for over a decade now and think people are missing the full story about digital. This goes far beyond digital being a more robust version of analog audio for storage and handling.

No the huge ass difference not being talked about is that digital technology is capable of decision making. No it's not going to replace human cognition any time soon, but mixing a show is not exactly rocket science either (sorry no offense). Digital decision making is surely adequate to supplant lots of the low level objective decisions now, with the potential to handle more as computers and software developers get smarter.

I hear where you're coming from. But until then, I think it would be prudent to have an analog, well, for analog ;) I did a show a couple of weeks ago where we had over 20 short set acts over the course 5 hours ranging from duos & trios to full bands and talking heads, to a couple of choirs. It would have made my life a ton easier if I had that virtual outboard for all my vocal channels and group compressors along with the verb & delay controls. As it was, I was jumping through layers and plugin screens like mad keeping up with all the changes on the fly. The show would have been much easier to do on an "old skool" analog desk with outboard, but that's not the desk we have anymore. While digital offers so much more overall, in that way it offers far less. It shouldn't be that way.
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 02, 2013, 02:25:20 PM
I hear where you're coming from. But until then, I think it would be prudent to have an analog, well, for analog ;) I did a show a couple of weeks ago where we had over 20 short set acts over the course 5 hours ranging from duos & trios to full bands and talking heads, to a couple of choirs. It would have made my life a ton easier if I had that virtual outboard for all my vocal channels and group compressors along with the verb & delay controls. As it was, I was jumping through layers and plugin screens like mad keeping up with all the changes on the fly. The show would have been much easier to do on an "old skool" analog desk with outboard, but that's not the desk we have anymore. While digital offers so much more overall, in that way it offers far less. It shouldn't be that way.


Greg....

This is a niche in which I often find myself.  I agree with the need for instant access to controls and that points toward analog.  But there are some nominally "digital" features which come in handy.  The half-way point is the virtual rack or a "digi-log" desk such as the StudioLive. 

I'm using a StudioLive 24 a good bit now and am pretty happy with it as a compromise between the two worlds of analog and digital.  The layout is pretty much analog with only a "select" button to engage for most of the adjustments you want to make.  Fairly quick.  And you still have the advantage of recalling your own pre-sets to a channel, copy/paste and such from digi-world.

A pretty fair compromise in my book. 
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Frank DeWitt on January 02, 2013, 03:18:53 PM
I look at it in several general ways.  The first is the difference between a mixer as a single device versus a mixing system with multiple integrated devices.  The latter certainly has advantages but also has additional considerations in terms of multiple variations on systems, interconnections to address and so on.
 
The second is the difference between a personal mixer and a mixer for use by others or by multiple others.  For example, SAC intrigues my as something for my own use but I am not sold on its use for schools, public venues, rentals, etc. where the users may be numerous and varied.
 
Finally, are we facing a new paradigm in terms of useful life and depreciation?  Are we looking at mixers having a likely effective useful life more like that of a computer than that of an amplifier or speaker?  Is a mixer going to become a 2-5 year investment rather than a 5-10 year one?

I hear you Brad.  In my head we walk up to the mixer. you click guest and see 3 choices, old school analog,  Yamaha 01V96, and something else.  One screen lights up, the faders are working, ch 1 on the far left, ETC.  I walk up to it and type Frank and my password and all the screens light up.  I have 48 faders in wide format with large type scribble strips because i am old and that is what I want.  There are spaces between instrument faders and vocal faders.  There is a bright red fader labeled Pastor.

Below the desk is another monitor with all my effects permanently displayed as was invented here earlier again all this is this way because that is what I want and I bought the extra modals to do it, but you can walk up to it and have the talker in the mains in 5 sec.
   
That's in my head,  in real life I share a SAC system with a K-12 school  As I said earlier I have 2 video screens, 16 faders, and a button box for scenes.  Well the school uses kids.  They like mixing with the mouse! so the real faders are dead.  All the channels are shown narrow with small print' (They are kids)  They have different routing because they use auxes for monitors. (We use personal mixers for IEMs)  To make this reliable and make sure neither of us can mess up the other, we have the hard drive partitioned into two parts, there are two separate SAC installs one for them and one for the church.  Each can be tweaked as needed.

Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on January 02, 2013, 04:09:57 PM
I hear where you're coming from. But until then, I think it would be prudent to have an analog, well, for analog ;) I did a show a couple of weeks ago where we had over 20 short set acts over the course 5 hours ranging from duos & trios to full bands and talking heads, to a couple of choirs. It would have made my life a ton easier if I had that virtual outboard for all my vocal channels and group compressors along with the verb & delay controls. As it was, I was jumping through layers and plugin screens like mad keeping up with all the changes on the fly. The show would have been much easier to do on an "old skool" analog desk with outboard, but that's not the desk we have anymore. While digital offers so much more overall, in that way it offers far less. It shouldn't be that way.

OK, but as long as I am speaking hypothetically, lets imagine a future when all those wannabe bands show up with their USB thumb drive (or the future equivalent) and plug in their total band repertoire-play list, effects needs (with presets), monitor mixes, frequency response template, yadda yadda..

To perform they wirelessly select their next song from on stage, while you sit back and sip a cool one in the quiet, heated/air conditioned trailer, until tear down.   

The convergence of recording, practice, and live performance technology works with this new cybernetic assisted mix environment.

Of course this is just my wild assed guesses about one possible future and not remotely around the corner any time soon, especially if almost everybody lacks the vision to imagine a different way.

I am just pointing out that digital technology offers a power largely untapped to help us with anticipated decision making. If we expect fader moves, perhaps we can write rules for how the faders need to move (again this works best with fixed output targets so it can respond to changing inputs and maintain desired output levels). Right now this is all undefined, so soft.

For those who see mixing as high art, this is surely unimaginable.

My apologies, I just call it like I see it (in my crystal ball).  8)

JR

PS: No availability dates in my crystal ball.
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Simon Ryder on January 02, 2013, 07:19:12 PM
OK, but as long as I am speaking hypothetically, lets imagine a future when all those wannabe bands show up with their USB thumb drive (or the future equivalent) and plug in their total band repertoire-play list, effects needs (with presets), monitor mixes, frequency response template, yadda yadda..

To perform they wirelessly select their next song from on stage, while you sit back and sip a cool one in the quiet, heated/air conditioned trailer, until tear down.   

The convergence of recording, practice, and live performance technology works with this new cybernetic assisted mix environment.

Of course this is just my wild assed guesses about one possible future and not remotely around the corner any time soon, especially if almost everybody lacks the vision to imagine a different way.

I am just pointing out that digital technology offers a power largely untapped to help us with anticipated decision making. If we expect fader moves, perhaps we can write rules for how the faders need to move (again this works best with fixed output targets so it can respond to changing inputs and maintain desired output levels). Right now this is all undefined, so soft.

For those who see mixing as high art, this is surely unimaginable.

My apologies, I just call it like I see it (in my crystal ball).  8)

JR

PS: No availability dates in my crystal ball.

To an extent I think you are right. To produce the "high art" of mixing though, there is still no computer algorithm that can yet achieve it - though I do appreciate that modern chart music is now so formulaic that it could well have been written by a robot and therefore mixing it is therefore also formulaic... Backing track up, mute the mics in case they actually try to sing, remember to unmute between each "song"... Another Britney gig done.

On second thoughts, give that one to the computer, it would be less soul destroying.

At the point where AI can decision make and program and create art at the levels of any master in any medium, frankly humanity had better watch out. but whilst there are bands like Led Zeppelin or the Foo Fighters or Aerosmith, we will all still be in work.

Isn't that right HAL.
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 02, 2013, 07:21:19 PM
but whilst there are bands like Led Zeppelin or the Foo Fighters or Aerosmith, we will all still be in work.

Isn't that right HAL.

Whilst?  Have you been reading your thesaurus again, Dave?
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on January 02, 2013, 09:37:12 PM
To an extent I think you are right. To produce the "high art" of mixing though, there is still no computer algorithm that can yet achieve it - though I do appreciate that modern chart music is now so formulaic that it could well have been written by a robot and therefore mixing it is therefore also formulaic... Backing track up, mute the mics in case they actually try to sing, remember to unmute between each "song"... Another Britney gig done.

On second thoughts, give that one to the computer, it would be less soul destroying.

At the point where AI can decision make and program and create art at the levels of any master in any medium, frankly had better watch out. but whilst there are bands like Led Zeppelin or the Foo Fighters or Aerosmith, we will all still be in work.

Isn't that right HAL.
We get to express our creativity and art in different ways. I suspect the 80/20 rule is in play when it comes to mixing duties.

Why not offload 80% of the nonsense so you, or the artists on stage can handle the other 20%

No offense intended.

JR

PS: I am rather looking forward to a computer driving my car for me. Even if I can do it better.
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Simon Ryder on January 03, 2013, 04:14:31 AM
We get to express our creativity and art in different ways. I suspect the 80/20 rule is in play when it comes to mixing duties.

Why not offload 80% of the nonsense so you, or the artists on stage can handle the other 20%

No offense intended.

JR

PS: I am rather looking forward to a computer driving my car for me. Even if I can do it better.

None taken :)


PS: where's the fun in that? I LIKE driving - especially impractical 2 seater things. Now a teleporting loading dock on the other hand....
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Simon Ryder on January 03, 2013, 04:15:57 AM
Whilst?  Have you been reading your thesaurus again, Dave?

 ;)
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: kristianjohnsen on January 03, 2013, 04:46:27 AM
mixing a show is not exactly rocket science either (sorry no offense).

Obviously, you are correct. 

But I'm going to contest that there are rocket scientists out there that would not be all that comfortable performing a task where there is no opportunity to ask for support, look something up or talk to a colleague, in front of a live audience, all while accepting considerable risk regarding theft or damage to personally owned gear that runs up to millions in cost...

These are the conditions present at a gig and we should have access to tools that work very well under these conditions.

I'm also sure we will see mixers that have all kinds of rules written into them in the future, and "goal adjustments" rather than "parameter adjustments" for some things. 

A live gig can be a pretty chaotic place, though, with no opportunity to "halt the wagon" and restart - hence I think people performing the overall control functions of the sound reinforcement are entitled to a way to get a decent overview over what is going on and an effective way to affect it.

What I picture are ultra-linear mics at every instrument and a measurement mic at FOH.  A mixer that can be told to "make every mic channel sound like the source" could be great for people who only want to adjust faders up and down in level.  Comparing all the mics could make the mixer identify bleed between mics, etc, possibly cancelling it, too.

But for more advanced mixing this isn't a solution, afterall:  Remember that much of what we do is actually playing to psychoacoustic phenomenon and how what we hear is affected by other senses.  Often we will EQ and compress a signal so that it doesn't sound very "true to the source", but once it goes into the mix it tricks the listener into thinking it sounds like a "full sound" - all while not masking other important sources.

The level of exaggeration/underexaggeration is a very dynamic parameter that changes for every source and occation- so I still see humans making these decisions.

PS:  We have long ago found out how to make a computer play a synthesizer.  Why are there still musicians on stage?  We could just "write rules" for the synthesizer to follow... ::)
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on January 03, 2013, 10:44:38 AM

What I picture are ultra-linear mics at every instrument and a measurement mic at FOH.  A mixer that can be told to "make every mic channel sound like the source" could be great for people who only want to adjust faders up and down in level.  Comparing all the mics could make the mixer identify bleed between mics, etc, possibly cancelling it, too.
I have been thinking about this for some time...  If all we wanted was a flat reading from every input there wouldn't be EQ on consoles.

Visualize instead that the digital brain can identify a guitar or drum input, and shape that based on previous programming (perhaps even learning from how you mixed in the past). Think of this as intelligent automation.
Quote
But for more advanced mixing this isn't a solution, afterall:  Remember that much of what we do is actually playing to psychoacoustic phenomenon and how what we hear is affected by other senses.  Often we will EQ and compress a signal so that it doesn't sound very "true to the source", but once it goes into the mix it tricks the listener into thinking it sounds like a "full sound" - all while not masking other important sources.
yup
Quote
The level of exaggeration/underexaggeration is a very dynamic parameter that changes for every source and occation- so I still see humans making these decisions.
sources if different enough need to be learned. Locations should be manageable.
Quote
PS:  We have long ago found out how to make a computer play a synthesizer.  Why are there still musicians on stage?  We could just "write rules" for the synthesizer to follow... ::)

A jam session where players just show up and play together could be challenging, if these musicians can not effectively mix themselves from stage. This promises to give artists even more control over their sound. Many gigs where they are trying very hard to sound like their record, with just enough variation to prove they are not faking it, could use pre-programmed targets.

Don't shoot the messenger, I just see a capability for digital decision making to be used much more effectively than it is now. This is not a simple straight line path. I understand the cognitive dissonance from me suggesting a job may become (mostly) obsolete. There should be enough parallels of this in other industries.

There is far more to providing sound reinforcement than just mixing the songs. I can visualize mixing evolving to be taken over by the artists themselves (then who would they complain to? Hopefully they would work out disputes between each other at practices, long before the shows). For cover bands the song templates could be pre-defined, while they could edit them to personalize them. Perhaps big dog acts would still use a producer or whatever doing the stage mixing duties for them.

JR

PS: I enjoy driving too, but who wouldn't appreciate automatic pilot for the long ride home after tearing down the gig (or after too many brewskis).
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Don Boomer on January 03, 2013, 01:58:58 PM


Don't shoot the messenger

JR ... you seem to be taking a lot of arrows to the back 

Me, my mouth is shut  ;)
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on January 03, 2013, 02:49:43 PM
JR ... you seem to be taking a lot of arrows to the back 

Me, my mouth is shut  ;)
I understand... was wondering where you were.  8)

It is human nature for people to resist change and feel a little threatened by my predictions.

You can get less arrows doing "good for the money" me-too products, like a certain digital console that is getting a lot of love, and make a nice pile of money, if you get it very right, but it is about as exciting as kissing your sister (or so I'm told).  8)

Lots of pioneers die alongside the wagon trail from those arrows.

I worry you may still be a little ahead of the market with your smart mixer product. I have been thinking about this stuff for decades, but that doesn't mean it will happen any time soon. Every year the technology gets cheaper so more doable.

A great product that doesn't match up with the market's willingness to adapt and  embrace (and spend), is not a great product by definition. I recall several products at Peavey that were ahead of their time, and/or mismatched to the distribution, so poor sellers in their time, and then passionately missed when they were no longer available (some midi products come to mind, an old monitor console, that stand-alone feedback detector, etc). Peavey was making class D power amps before even they figured out how to do it.  ;D ;D 
 
But that's life out in front of the pack ... The scenery is better but you don't have a cleared path to follow. Sometimes you have to remove the obstacles, sometimes just go around. 

Good luck.

JR
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Bob Leonard on January 04, 2013, 03:16:18 PM
JR,
In my daytime world I spend every minute of the day insuring that the largest companies in the world have access to their data, central services, mission critical systems, etc. . Every day I live with the stress of system failures, and that stress is costly in many ways.

My thoughts concerning digital (And you thought I didn't have any) have pretty much been the same since day one. First and formost regardless of the level of automation there will ALWAYS be a wizard behind the curtain, and to be more specific, the more complex the solution, the more support staff required, each person with an area of expertise.

I've read the replies concerning layout and features. Some I can agree with, other are a fignewton of the imagination. What will eventually work IMO, is a logically designed analog type surface coupled to a very capable processor and operating system that allows for an open interface to all manufacturers software and hardware products. In other words a desk that has all the features of any digital desk but with an analog look and feel, few if any layers for the channel strips, one screen for the channels, one screen for the effects/outboard plug-ins, 20" minimum touch or mouse controlled.

What I've just described is my recording system, Cubase, or any number of quality DAW interfaces. So that begs for the next question, which has to be "Why not use a Cubase or equal ?? The answer is because the software is only a small part of the solution. The current leaders in combining our prized hardware with a usable software solution seem to be Avid, DIGICo, and Yamaha, with DIGICo leading by a mile.

What DIGICo has done is present their product correctly. They don't specifically state their systems are a mixer, but more correctly state their systems/consoles are comprised of a work surface and engine. They have taken digital to an extreme above most others allowing for the possability of expansion and creative expression.

Unfortunately none of the leading manufacturers has embraced an open architecture and therefor the costs for these systems remains, and will remain high. Until such time that manufacturers embrace an open interface and allow third party vendors to interface with their product without penelty high prices will remain. Oh, and I'm not talking about Ipads of Iphones here.

Full automation can be acheived, but at what cost, and why? would a fully automated system help "A" class touring acts the likes of Clapton, the Stones, etc.? My answer would be no, but I'll bet someone out there will say yes.

And the one critical piece in a fully automated system has been overlooked. Even on the smallest scale anything electrical or mechanical can and will fail. Joe the bartender won't be able to fix the system, so Joe the bartender is once again dependent on the system engineer. The system engineer, according to some of the above responses, is sitting at home. Even with a 4hr contract the parts and engineer still have to arrive on site. Good for me because I'm being paid, but bad for Joe the Bartender because everyone left once the entertainment stopped.

You could of course build a fully fault tolerant system, but the money would be huge for the small time Mom and Pop. You could start with a small two system cluster running the OS of your choice, each system running through a pair of redundent fiber switches to an EMC Clariion storage device and then to a control surface, for which there is a spare in the back room. $500,000 should be about right for that technology. Anyway, I'm rambling now and I don't like to do that. So, IMO and in the end, an automated concert is still very, very far away.
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on January 04, 2013, 04:22:40 PM
just to clarify, I am not talking about fully automating the mix process in yours, or my, lifetime.

I am talking about a paradigm shift to take more advantage of digital technology's decision making capability. We all know how dependent this is on the programming (HAL?).

To make an extreme example of a simple analog computing device, that off loads decision making, when was the last time you set the choke on your car to start it when cold? Come to think of it, that might even be digital these days.  8)

It should not be that hard to imagine low level live SR tasks that could be off loaded to a cybernetic helper.
=======

I don't disagree with you about the concept of parsing out an audio system into a processing engine, and control surface. I have been whispering in the ear of some friends in the analog console business that maybe they should make a control surface designed to their very high ergonomic standards and then mate it up to the processing engine du jour (Peavey media matrix might be an option while I haven't explored this so don't know how powerful it is these days. Other companies back end could be mated to.)

My crystal ball suggests to me that the control surface does not need to resemble an old school console forever, but for now with old geezers controlling the purse strings it is a good idea to keep them happy. The kids coming up behind us might be happy with a game controller and VR glasses so they can just squeeze the performer's virtual head between their fingers to compress them (pun intended).

The processing engine, will become smaller and cheaper so eventually evolve into being built into powered speakers and other unavoidable system blocks, preferably ones having a line cord.

If we look at even a budget low cost digital console I'll bet the lion's share of the cost to manufacture is not in the convertors and digital engine, but in the displays and controls  (just like analog consoles). You want to see another gold rush price decrease figure out how to accomplish the control functions with a cheap mass produced game interface.  :o

If I could I would, but I'm not quite that clever (or actually trying).

JR

PS: How do you keep the cloud working? Some merchants that were depending on Amazon(?) for their IT/back end got screwed when they dropped the ball... No plan is perfect.
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Bob Leonard on January 04, 2013, 06:18:32 PM
Two minds on the same path John, but who cares about an old geeze anyway. I hope your whispers have been heard, and if they have I hope those good folks have something for us at least before I take my dirt nap.

Ahhh, the cloud. Remember that up above I said the more complex the technology, the more dependent on capable specialists and support. The cloud is nothing more than systems in remote sites performing a specific task for one or more companies. A failure could be as simple as a failed router whose backup path or secondary did not kick in. In my mind that is inexcusable as testing and planned events should have uncovered any fault in the system which could result in an outage. I'm sure some heads have rolled for that one.

This is the accepted definition;

Cloud Computing Defined

Cloud Computing is constantly evolving.  It began life as "Grid Computing" - a technology able to solve large problems with parallel computing and resources from multiple administrative domains. Subsequently, grid computing matured to offer computing resources as a metered service, known as "utility computing".  Eventually, the aforementioned model again evolved via network-based subscriptions and applications into what is now known as Cloud Computing.
 
NIST defines Cloud computing as a model for enabling convenient, on-demand network access to a shared pool of configurable computing resources (e.g., networks, servers, storage, applications, and services) that can be rapidly provisioned and released with minimal management effort or service provider interaction.

 
PS - I see more and more facilities whose electrical capabilities have been met or maxed out. I have also seen more than one facility outage due to loss of electrical power and failed generators. In those cases where everything shuts down it could and usually does take hours to bring all of the systems back on line. This then requires manual intervention to move services to a backup site and re-route data. This is the COLOs fault and there is little forgiveness when this happens. Also, before anyone asks "What about a UPS.", a COLO facility is designed as a UPS first and should never know there has been a power outage. However, the COLO will run on alternate power forever, unlike a little rack mount UPS designed to power a system down properly and with a reserve time of not much more than 5-10 minutes.
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: kristianjohnsen on January 05, 2013, 07:32:18 AM


A jam session where players just show up and play together could be challenging, if these musicians can not effectively mix themselves from stage. .......

Don't shoot the messenger

Skynet, anyone?  (Robots playing R&R).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Jv_BDNc3AdE
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on January 05, 2013, 11:07:27 AM
Skynet, anyone?  (Robots playing R&R).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Jv_BDNc3AdE

Now you're just showing your age... HAL from the old "2001" movie showing machine intelligence run amok seems a better film reference for the luddites (look it up). 

JR

PS How many here read "1984" and watched "2001" when those were both still distant future dates? The fiction must have a different impact after the title date has passed.
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: Geoff Doane on January 05, 2013, 01:18:48 PM
JR ... you seem to be taking a lot of arrows to the back 

Me, my mouth is shut  ;)

We haven't heard much from you here lately Don, but you seem to be drawing a lot of fire over at gearslutz!  ;D

GTD
Title: Re: The future of digital consoles
Post by: boburtz on January 05, 2013, 08:33:13 PM
My crystal ball suggests to me that the control surface does not need to resemble an old school console forever, but for now with old geezers controlling the purse strings it is a good idea to keep them happy. The kids coming up behind us might be happy with a game controller and VR glasses so they can just squeeze the performer's virtual head between their fingers to compress them (pun intended).
I just worked with a DJ/performer on New Years at a pretty high profile event in San Francisco. He was using an old game joystick to manipulate his dubstep sounds. It was part of his theatrical presentation and very functional. I'm sure this is commonplace these days with that genre, but this is the first time I've seen it.