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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Lighting Forum => Topic started by: Dave Guilford on June 03, 2018, 08:32:11 PM
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I’ve been using dmx software for a while now, and the newest update crashed my laptop twice now, once in the middle of a show!
I want to bring along an backup controller (not software), and keep some
Type of lightning quick change system in case it crashes again.
Suggestions?
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Hi Dave,
What's the complexity of your system, and how consistent is it?
If your expectations aren't terribly high and your system is consistent from show to show there are a number of self-contained playback units that might work nicely in a pinch. If you routinely vary your rig or have a need for complex control these may not work as well. For what it's worth I operate the other way around - hardware console for primary control and a laptop/software for backup. Both run the same software though so in theory the changeover should be seamless, however since I mostly busk I much prefer the console. Good luck!
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When the software crashed, all the lights went down. Blackout in the middle of a song. 8-10 seconds before software reboots. Feels like an hour.
I’d envision basically an A/B switch with dmx connectors , which allows me to hit that button to a preprogrammed filler type scene that’s just running all the time.
Something to buy me 8-10 seconds. Possible? Any thing weird to consider when buying a switcher like that? Or ... ??
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There are ways to do failover-type setups, yes, but returning to my first questions if your rig isn't consistent and/or has complex control needs this becomes more difficult (expensive) to do.
What's the software and interface in question? I'd address the problem at its source and figure out why your software keeps crashing. Depending on the exact behavior of the interface during a crash you might be able to get away with something much less elaborate if all you need is a few seconds to reload a program. I'd still try to figure out the software problem first though.
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I’m comfortable with what I have. Just asking if anyone has seen / knows about a device I’m asking for.
So let’s just tackle that question. My rig is of little importance. I know my addressing and programming, so I’m not worried about whatever you think you’re getting at.
I don’t mean to be rude, just like I’m sure you don’t mean to be unhelpful. Let’s just stay on course.
If anyone else has suggestions - please chime in.
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I’m comfortable with what I have. Just asking if anyone has seen / knows about a device I’m asking for.
So let’s just tackle that question. My rig is of little importance. I know my addressing and programming, so I’m not worried about whatever you think you’re getting at.
I don’t mean to be rude, just like I’m sure you don’t mean to be unhelpful. Let’s just stay on course.
If anyone else has suggestions - please chime in.
Dave, the easiest backup is another of what you already have - whether software or hardware. A different style device won't have the same programming - either capabilities or the effort you have put in setting your gear up the way you want it. Laptops are cheap. I carry two.
The better way forward is making your existing system more resilient. Software updates - ether the program itself or Windows - are the only trouble I've ever had with software-based lighting systems. The solution - don't update until you have downtime to run your rig through it's paces with the new software to make sure it's reliable. If that doesn't sound like something you want to do - then don't ever update. As long as you keep your lighting PC off the internet, you'll never need the Windows Updates, and as long as the existing version of your lighting software does what you want, you'll never need software updates for that, either.
If you really want to do what you're suggesting, it is probably possible to do a passive DMX A/B switch with a DPDT switch in a box and a couple in XLRs and an out. Will it be reliable? No idea, but it could work. If you have lots of money, active combiners exist (https://www.swisson.com/us-dmx-merger) (you can't just Y-together multiple controllers), however you need to make sure they work the way you want. Some are HTP-based systems, meaning whichever input is higher for each channel wins, and that's not going to do what you need. You could use a Raspberry Pi (http://www.instructables.com/id/Raspberry-Pi-as-a-DMX-light-controller/) as a static snapshot controller for a backup.
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Jeff, It just makes you want to throw your hands up in the air and say "I give up" doesn't it!
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Maybe a redundant wireless dmx system.
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You could create some scenes on any hardware dmx controller, just make sure all of the fixture channels are identical in both system's programming. If your software went down, you should be able to move the dmx cable to the controller and run those scenes. That would still take a minute or two though. You could also wire up a few washes to a power strip and turn it on when needed, you would at least have stage lighting until the computer restarts.
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The Northlight DMX merger will do what you want pretty cheaply:
http://northlightdmx.com/dmx512merge.htm
From the description:
Backup mode passes universe A and blocks universe B until universe A signal is lost, then outputs B.
If DMX B is not available then the recorder scene is used for backup.
Record a "scene" from DMX B for backup mode.
So you don't actually have to have a second controller for DMX B if all you need is one backup scene to carry you through the rebooting process.
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Jeff, It just makes you want to throw your hands up in the air and say "I give up" doesn't it!
Yes, but I still like to help as I can...
Dave, I didn't say that what you're using is bad. There just isn't an easy answer to your question that will work in every given situation and being cryptic doesn't help.
At the most basic level, something like the Pathway #1017 DMX/RDM Merge (https://www.pathwayconnect.com/index.php/products/edin-interface-modules/47-edin-interfaces-repeaters/189-1017-dmx-rdm-merger) will do exactly what you want, but there are trade-offs to consider. Given that it's only a merge unit, you'll need a second source of DMX to failover onto. Ideally, this would be a second identical console taking cue commands from the primary console so that a failover would be completely transparent. This works if you have complex control needs but comes at the cost of having a second complete console on hand and running.
Alternatively, this unit (along with some of the others mentioned) have the option to hold their last command for a period of time during a failure, so you wouldn't necessarily need a second unit to fallback on. That's all fine and good so long as you're okay with a static look during a failure, but if you have equipment with special needs that you don't want getting stuck "on" (fog machines, high-intensity strobes, etc.) this is not a truly acceptable solution.
Other units such as the Doug Fleenor PRE10-P (http://www.dfd.com/p10p.html), a few software dongles, and others have the ability to fallback on internal programming should their DMX (or USB) input fail.
All of this works fine if you're running the same show every night, hence I was questioning what the consistency of your rig is. If you're using a different set of fixtures for each show it becomes more difficult to do this due to the number of backup programs needed to cover all possible lighting combinations. Using more than one universe also makes things more complicated.
That said, you really need to sort out why your software is crashing in the first place. While the options outlined above will work to varying degrees based on the needs of your system, they're not particularly cheap nor would I consider it a professional way to handle the problem that you're having. TJ's advice is spot on - get everything working in a stable configuration and only update as absolutely necessary - and only when you have time to debug following an update. I ran a PC-only console (MagicQ) for nearly 10 years without a single crash. Good Luck!
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The Northlight DMX merger will do what you want pretty cheaply:
http://northlightdmx.com/dmx512merge.htm
From the description:
Backup mode passes universe A and blocks universe B until universe A signal is lost, then outputs B.
If DMX B is not available then the recorder scene is used for backup.
Record a "scene" from DMX B for backup mode.
So you don't actually have to have a second controller for DMX B if all you need is one backup scene to carry you through the rebooting process.
Scott, that's a great item. Thanks for the resource.
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The Northlight DMX merger will do what you want pretty cheaply:
http://northlightdmx.com/dmx512merge.htm
From the description:
Backup mode passes universe A and blocks universe B until universe A signal is lost, then outputs B.
If DMX B is not available then the recorder scene is used for backup.
Record a "scene" from DMX B for backup mode.
So you don't actually have to have a second controller for DMX B if all you need is one backup scene to carry you through the rebooting process.
A dirty secret of these devices is that depending on how your controller dies, they may not detect that the primary controller is down. All a DMX merger sees is whether they are still receiving DMX frames or not. If the DMX timing is done by the hardware interface, it may continue refreshing the last DMX frame from buffer memory indefinitely even if the software is dead, which the merger will see as valid input.
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A dirty secret of these devices is that depending on how your controller dies, they may not detect that the primary controller is down.
Exactly, which is why I mentioned further up that the viability of this depends on the exact behavior of the interface during a failure. The Pathway unit offers connections for an external switch to select between inputs, so while it may not behave as a true failsafe at least it can be activated manually in case of imminent failure. Still not the way I'd vote to solve this problem, but knowing nothing else it's the best I can do!
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Depending on the software platform you’re using, you may be able to implement a tracking backup solution. Many of the larger console provided implement this natively where you simply have additional consoles on the network that take over in the event of a failure on the primary desk
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You could create some scenes on any hardware dmx controller, just make sure all of the fixture channels are identical in both system's programming. If your software went down, you should be able to move the dmx cable to the controller and run those scenes. That would still take a minute or two though. You could also wire up a few washes to a power strip and turn it on when needed, you would at least have stage lighting until the computer restarts.
Ya exactly. This is what I’m after. Now link me to a basic XLR source switcher, but for dmx (reversed ends from audio).
I’m not trying to buy another laptop and sub/dmx box. Just the actual device that’ll let me quickly switch between dmx sources.
You guys are making too big of a deal on this.
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Jeff, It just makes you want to throw your hands up in the air and say "I give up" doesn't it!
Giving me information that doesn’t help? He addressed a completely different set of questions - which I didn’t ask - and now you guys are upset?
It’s enough to make mye toss my hands up and say “I give up!”
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Quick to the point answer
A/B Switch (http://www.dfd.com/sw.html)
Unasked for stuff, yep, that's what happens when you want free advice, you sometimes don't get the advice you want. The people responding above know their stuff and in my opinion were trying to clarify exactly what you needed.
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One could probably make your own DMX switch quite cheaply by getting a generic data switch like shown below and either making RJ45 to XLR adapters or better yet replacing the RJ45 jacks on the box with XLR's and doing a little rewiring. Even if the RJ45's are mounted to a pc board, looks like plenty of room to mount XLR's next to them.
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Giving me information that doesn’t help? He addressed a completely different set of questions - which I didn’t ask - and now you guys are upset?
It’s enough to make mye toss my hands up and say “I give up!”
You've gotten about 8 different good ideas from this thread. Forgive me for the lack of sympathy if you are displeased at the method in which you received your free help.
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Asking questions here is like asking questions at guitar center. Lol
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Asking questions here is like asking questions at guitar center. Lol
Many modern lights have a setting that allows them to stay in the last dmx state they received. If you make sure that is on you won't lose anything except changes if the controller goes down or needs to reboot.
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Asking questions here is like asking questions at guitar center. Lol
Sorry but this is absolute bull$hit. Good luck with your project.
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If Dave Guilford is using My DMX, a new hardware item shown at Infocomm is MY DMX RM. It stores 16 scenes that are available at the touch of a button. There is no merge or thru feature, but it could give an instant backup with an external switch. Of course there is no way to know what software package is being used so this may be useless information.
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Ya exactly. This is what I’m after. Now link me to a basic XLR source switcher, but for dmx (reversed ends from audio).
I’m not trying to buy another laptop and sub/dmx box. Just the actual device that’ll let me quickly switch between dmx sources.
You guys are making too big of a deal on this.
How long would it take to unplug the DMX into you system and plug it into your backup controller? Or for that matter if you had the connectors laying where you would lay a switch it would take maybe 2 seconds longer? Yes a switch would be better-but as others have said-I'd rather put my effort into fixing why it breaks than making recovery easier.