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Church and H.O.W. – Forums for HOW Sound and AV - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Church and HOW Forums => Church Sound => Topic started by: Jacob Robinson on February 04, 2013, 07:58:26 PM

Title: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Jacob Robinson on February 04, 2013, 07:58:26 PM
It is pretty much a hypothetical question, but I'll ask anyways. 

Would you buy an LS9 today given the new competition that has came out since the LS9 was introduced?


It seems that the LS9 has stood the test of time and has been a great budget friendly option for a digital console.  But when you take a look at today's offerings from Midas, Allen-Heath, Roland and even Soundcraft, that the LS9 has seen its better days.

Scenario:
A contemporary, full band church needs a new console (32ch minimum), a budget of $16k but less is always better.

It seems that when looking at this it would be hard to beat the GLD80 from A&H, and even after that the offerings from Roland and Midas offer much more features and processing for the money than an LS9 especially when you factor the expensive digital snake options from Yamaha.

Please feel free to respond with how you choose and why.

-Jake
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 04, 2013, 08:01:12 PM
I is pretty much a hypothetical question, but I'll ask anyways. 

Would you buy an LS9 today given the new competition that has came out since the LS9 was introduced?


It seems that the LS9 has stood the test of time and has been a great budget friendly option for a digital console.  But when you take a look at today's offerings from Midas, Allen-Heath, Roland and even Soundcraft, that the LS9 has seen its better days.

Scenario:
A contemporary, full band church needs a new console (32ch minimum), a budget of $16k but less is always better.

It seems that when looking at this it would be hard to beat the GLD80 from A&H, and even after that the offerings from Roland and Midas offer much more features and processing for the money than an LS9 especially when you factor the expensive digital snake options from Yamaha.

Please feel free to respond with how you choose and why.

-Jake

Would I take one if it was given to me?  Only to sell it......

Arguably the least good sounding digital mixer out there.

Given all the other stuff available at that price or less, why would you consider one?  They're pretty much dead in the water as far as I can see.
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on February 04, 2013, 08:03:49 PM
I is pretty much a hypothetical question, but I'll ask anyways. 

Would you buy an LS9 today given the new competition that has came out since the LS9 was introduced?


It seems that the LS9 has stood the test of time and has been a great budget friendly option for a digital console.  But when you take a look at today's offerings from Midas, Allen-Heath, Roland and even Soundcraft, that the LS9 has seen its better days.

Scenario:
A contemporary, full band church needs a new console (32ch minimum), a budget of $16k but less is always better.

It seems that when looking at this it would be hard to beat the GLD80 from A&H, and even after that the offerings from Roland and Midas offer much more features and processing for the money than an LS9 especially when you factor the expensive digital snake options from Yamaha.

Please feel free to respond with how you choose and why.

-Jake
i bought a GLD last year and haven't looked back. The digital snake is great and the new personal monitor mixer is cool too. The upcoming software update fixes the only two (IMO) major deficiencies of the console - the IPad app and better scene management.
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: chris harwood on February 04, 2013, 08:16:44 PM
Not having enough experience to answer my own question... is the X32 totally out of the LS9 league...even if you bought 5 of them  ;-D
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 04, 2013, 08:42:52 PM
Not having enough experience to answer my own question... is the X32 totally out of the LS9 league...even if you bought 5 of them  ;-D

OP said 32 channels minimum.  That would imply expandable.

I've looked at most of the offerings available but am waiting to see what the next couple of years bring.  As of now, the one that looks best to me is the GLD system from Allen & Heath.  I have seen TJ's in action and it is impressive.  The BE who was on it the day I stopped in gave it a big thumbs up.  Given that it borrows from the larger iLive, the feature set is what I would call primo.

Will do 48 inputs, has a nice sized touch screen which puts it way ahead in my book and is extremely intuitive and easy to run without sacrificing functionality.

Definitely worth looking at whether you decide on it or not.  Helps put all the other offerings in a nice perspective for features vs. cost vs. ease of use.
Title: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Teddy Murphy on February 04, 2013, 08:46:33 PM
I was given the choice for my Company and decided to buy an SI Performer and a digital stage box.  Gives me 64 channels and sounds phenomenal.  I know this isn't for touring bands, but I recently had a touring engineer request it at FOH over our M7.  And talked about how great it sounded.
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Jeff Carter on February 04, 2013, 10:03:42 PM
i bought a GLD last year and haven't looked back. The digital snake is great and the new personal monitor mixer is cool too. The upcoming software update fixes the only two (IMO) major deficiencies of the console - the IPad app and better scene management.
My church bought a GLD in September. We've been quite happy with it so far--none of us are doing much (if any) scene switching during services so the scene management hasn't been an issue for us. It's quite a step up from analog world, that's for sure.

What I gripe about more than the iPad app and scene management is the lack of an off-line editor. This is not something that will be fixed in the upcoming software update as far as I've seen.

The personal mixing system looks pretty sweet, very nicely integrated with the console.
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Tim Weaver on February 04, 2013, 10:18:00 PM
It is pretty much a hypothetical question, but I'll ask anyways. 

Would you buy an LS9 today given the new competition that has came out since the LS9 was introduced?


It seems that the LS9 has stood the test of time and has been a great budget friendly option for a digital console.  But when you take a look at today's offerings from Midas, Allen-Heath, Roland and even Soundcraft, that the LS9 has seen its better days.

Scenario:
A contemporary, full band church needs a new console (32ch minimum), a budget of $16k but less is always better.

It seems that when looking at this it would be hard to beat the GLD80 from A&H, and even after that the offerings from Roland and Midas offer much more features and processing for the money than an LS9 especially when you factor the expensive digital snake options from Yamaha.

Please feel free to respond with how you choose and why.

-Jake

Absolutely. The LS9 still does everything that current mixers do. And it is bulletproof, unlike the rash of Si desks have been.

There are not many desks out there that will mix 64 channels as easily as the LS9 does. In fact, many CAN'T run 64 channels at all.

The LS9 has 33 faders and 4 stereo knobs right there on the surface. What else under 10 grand has this?

I use an LS9 every weekend. The desk stays by the stage and runs monitors on channels 33-64. The Guitar tech tends to the monitor mixes. I run FOH on channels 1-31 via a laptop running Studio manager. We do 6 stereo IEM's plus Left, Right, Sub, and Front Fills out of this desk. I use multiband compression, 3 FX units, and 4 Graphics. The desk has never skipped a beat while doing any of this and the two engineers never get in each others' way while mixing.

Tell me, what would you buy that can do all of that for less than 10k?
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: chris harwood on February 04, 2013, 11:46:32 PM
Absolutely. The LS9 still does everything that current mixers do. And it is bulletproof, unlike the rash of Si desks have been.

There are not many desks out there that will mix 64 channels as easily as the LS9 does. In fact, many CAN'T run 64 channels at all.

The LS9 has 33 faders and 4 stereo knobs right there on the surface. What else under 10 grand has this?

I use an LS9 every weekend. The desk stays by the stage and runs monitors on channels 33-64. The Guitar tech tends to the monitor mixes. I run FOH on channels 1-31 via a laptop running Studio manager. We do 6 stereo IEM's plus Left, Right, Sub, and Front Fills out of this desk. I use multiband compression, 3 FX units, and 4 Graphics. The desk has never skipped a beat while doing any of this and the two engineers never get in each others' way while mixing.

Tell me, what would you buy that can do all of that for less than 10k?

You can slap me for my answer, because I don't know with these two mixers...but would two X32 for < $7K come close with a 3rd for a spare to match the 10K?
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: brian maddox on February 04, 2013, 11:55:03 PM
Absolutely. The LS9 still does everything that current mixers do. And it is bulletproof, unlike the rash of Si desks have been.

There are not many desks out there that will mix 64 channels as easily as the LS9 does. In fact, many CAN'T run 64 channels at all.

The LS9 has 33 faders and 4 stereo knobs right there on the surface. What else under 10 grand has this?

I use an LS9 every weekend. The desk stays by the stage and runs monitors on channels 33-64. The Guitar tech tends to the monitor mixes. I run FOH on channels 1-31 via a laptop running Studio manager. We do 6 stereo IEM's plus Left, Right, Sub, and Front Fills out of this desk. I use multiband compression, 3 FX units, and 4 Graphics. The desk has never skipped a beat while doing any of this and the two engineers never get in each others' way while mixing.

Tell me, what would you buy that can do all of that for less than 10k?

2 X32s.  For half that.  Which is exactly what I did given the same choice.

I'm a MAJOR Yamaha fanboy and absolutely swear by their reliability and longevity.  But in the cash strapped church world I find myself in now, the LS9 just didn't make sense.

When the LS9 came out, it defined the market point.  Now it's had quite a few consoles join the party, and they're all quite a bit prettier than the first girl at the dance.
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Tim Weaver on February 05, 2013, 12:05:14 AM
2 X32s.  For half that.  Which is exactly what I did given the same choice.

I'm a MAJOR Yamaha fanboy and absolutely swear by their reliability and longevity.  But in the cash strapped church world I find myself in now, the LS9 just didn't make sense.

When the LS9 came out, it defined the market point.  Now it's had quite a few consoles join the party, and they're all quite a bit prettier than the first girl at the dance.


X32's don't have enough faders on top. Granted they do have DCA's Which I like. The biggest problem with the X32 is that it still says Behringer on it. Which may be OK for Church, but good luck trying to pass it off to visiting engineers.

I also don't care for the way the X32 does it's mix sends. A double tap on the LS9 brings up SOF for any mix available. It's much quicker than paging to the right bank and dialing a knob, or going to right master for SOF. Having the mix sends in 2 different places is a bit confusing. Not a deal breaker, I know, but it's still worth mentioning.

The LS9 is a proven workhorse. The X32 still has a long way to go to prove itself as a reliable performer. At it's price point I really don't see those faders surviving a bunch of rodeo gigs.....
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: brian maddox on February 05, 2013, 12:16:32 AM

X32's don't have enough faders on top. Granted they do have DCA's Which I like. The biggest problem with the X32 is that it still says Behringer on it. Which may be OK for Church, but good luck trying to pass it off to visiting engineers.

I also don't care for the way the X32 does it's mix sends. A double tap on the LS9 brings up SOF for any mix available. It's much quicker than paging to the right bank and dialing a knob, or going to right master for SOF. Having the mix sends in 2 different places is a bit confusing. Not a deal breaker, I know, but it's still worth mentioning.

The LS9 is a proven workhorse. The X32 still has a long way to go to prove itself as a reliable performer. At it's price point I really don't see those faders surviving a bunch of rodeo gigs.....

All totally valid points.  In fact, I'm still a big fan of the M7 precisely because it DOESN'T have any layers.  Last of the breed I suspect.

I have to be honest though, I think the LS9 is actually my least favorite yamaha desk, and I've worked on every PM analog desk since the 1500 series and every digital desk they've ever made.  I can't put a finger on exactly why I don't like it, but I don't. 

...if i could only justify putting in that PM1d......
Title: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Brian Larson on February 05, 2013, 02:14:29 AM
For a church? No, an LS9 wouldn't make sense. For a rental business? Yeah, it's about the only board in its market segment that's reliable and rentable.
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Josh Daws on February 05, 2013, 12:30:24 PM
All totally valid points.  In fact, I'm still a big fan of the M7 precisely because it DOESN'T have any layers.  Last of the breed I suspect.

I have to be honest though, I think the LS9 is actually my least favorite yamaha desk, and I've worked on every PM analog desk since the 1500 series and every digital desk they've ever made.  I can't put a finger on exactly why I don't like it, but I don't. 

...if i could only justify putting in that PM1d......

i just got 2 Yamaha CL5 consoles...its the M7 Platform, and it sound AMAZING!!!!!! way better than the M7 and LS9. and not much more than a M7...around 30Keach + the snake boxes....

Title: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Jacob Robinson on February 05, 2013, 08:45:31 PM
Well my thoughts were pretty much reinforced here.  I don't think anyone can deny the reliability of an LS9 and it had a great niche in it's day but for the most part it has seen its better days, Yamaha may even admit that.

It seems that if a church is looking for a mid range digital mixer to buy today that the GLD80 may be really hard to beat.  On the other hand if a church has $15k to spend and is really serious about spending the money they could probably stretch the budget a bit and get into a CL1 with digital snake for around $18k. (Just guessing here I don't really know the street prices for the CL series)

One thing I do know for sure is that once you have a console with with virtual soundcheck capabilities you will NEVER look back, to me that is a big selling point with mixers like the CL series that come ready for virtual soundcheck.

-Jake
Title: Re: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: jason misterka on February 05, 2013, 09:53:47 PM
i just got 2 Yamaha CL5 consoles...its the M7 Platform, and it sound AMAZING!!!!!! way better than the M7 and LS9. and not much more than a M7...around 30Keach + the snake boxes....

No disrespect to the CL5 but how in the world is it anywhere near the price of an M7CL-48?

New, the M7s are under $20K with 48x16.  Actually if you count stereos it is 56x16.

The CL5 is at $30k plus some of the most expensive stage boxes you can find.  That's at least another $8k or 9k to get 48 channels.

Anyway, not trying to do a topic swerve here.  But please, apples to apples. 

Jason
Title: Re: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Josh Daws on February 05, 2013, 10:32:13 PM
No disrespect to the CL5 but how in the world is it anywhere near the price of an M7CL-48?

mate i don't ask questions i just buy...lol...it was all in all with 2 snake boxes just a little over 36k....Maybe yamaha finally figured out how to not overprice something...per console
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Luke Geis on February 06, 2013, 06:08:57 PM
I bought an LS9 just last year knowing that the desk series is probably on it's way out the door. It does have the best all around value I think. The GLD which had just released when I got the LS9 was still more expensive and did not have the features the LS9 has. The LS9 is still one of the only desks that can split channel for channel to use as monitor & FOH and have independent control for each minus HA settings. All the other desks in or around it's price point don't seem to have what the LS9 has. I don't think the LS9 sounds bad at all, although it may be the worst sounding of the digital desks? It sounds better than many desks I have used and it does it very easily.

The Soundcraft Si series was not in for me, due to it's lack of industry respect and overall features. The GLD was out due to a high price for 48 channel ability at roughly the cost of an M7 for 48 channel count. The next thing in my market was the Presonus SL and it didn't have what I wanted either.  Pound for pound the LS9 is the best value that can be had for it's 7.5k price tag. I don't find 36k to be affordable for a digital desk when some of the better ones out there are going for 10k less, or more ( ala SC-48 at around 23k retail with 48 channels ).

The X32 is yet to prove it'self and all the brands are offering downsized versions now of the BIG desks they recently offered. Allen & Heath just released a smaller version of the GLD which sells at 9k just for the surface. It has 20 faders and is about the size of a 16 channel mixer. Roland has a couple mixers as well that are also in the small format size for around 8k. Presonus just released the 32 channel SL with supposedly more CPU power and it is still no contender against the LS9. The LS9 is holding value well with people still offloading them for 6k in good condition. I got mine brand new for 7.8k a year ago. Not the lowest price, but I buy retail to keep things easy with taxes. I don't think you can find another digital desk at that price that will beat the LS9.
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on February 06, 2013, 09:47:59 PM
I bought an LS9 just last year knowing that the desk series is probably on it's way out the door. It does have the best all around value I think. The GLD which had just released when I got the LS9 was still more expensive and did not have the features the LS9 has. The LS9 is still one of the only desks that can split channel for channel to use as monitor & FOH and have independent control for each minus HA settings. All the other desks in or around it's price point don't seem to have what the LS9 has. I don't think the LS9 sounds bad at all, although it may be the worst sounding of the digital desks? It sounds better than many desks I have used and it does it very easily.

The Soundcraft Si series was not in for me, due to it's lack of industry respect and overall features. The GLD was out due to a high price for 48 channel ability at roughly the cost of an M7 for 48 channel count. The next thing in my market was the Presonus SL and it didn't have what I wanted either.  Pound for pound the LS9 is the best value that can be had for it's 7.5k price tag. I don't find 36k to be affordable for a digital desk when some of the better ones out there are going for 10k less, or more ( ala SC-48 at around 23k retail with 48 channels ).

The X32 is yet to prove it'self and all the brands are offering downsized versions now of the BIG desks they recently offered. Allen & Heath just released a smaller version of the GLD which sells at 9k just for the surface. It has 20 faders and is about the size of a 16 channel mixer. Roland has a couple mixers as well that are also in the small format size for around 8k. Presonus just released the 32 channel SL with supposedly more CPU power and it is still no contender against the LS9. The LS9 is holding value well with people still offloading them for 6k in good condition. I got mine brand new for 7.8k a year ago. Not the lowest price, but I buy retail to keep things easy with taxes. I don't think you can find another digital desk at that price that will beat the LS9.
Even a fully-expanded GLD is several thousand dollars cheaper than a USED M7. Not sure what prices you've gotten on the GLD

I  suppose the feature of the LS9 you're referring to is 64 channels so you can have two layers of 32 channels.  Indeed the GLD can't do this, however the GLD allows aux sends to be tapped post EQ but pre-dynamics, and as such has never bothered me for using the same channel for both FOH and monitors.
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 06, 2013, 09:54:10 PM
Even a fully-expanded GLD is several thousand dollars cheaper than a USED M7. Not sure what prices you've gotten on the GLD

I  suppose the feature of the LS9 you're referring to is 64 channels so you can have two layers of 32 channels.  Indeed the GLD can't do this, however the GLD allows aux sends to be tapped post EQ but pre-dynamics, and as such has never bothered me for using the same channel for both FOH and monitors.

Well, there's still the old trick of sub-mixing things.  I've had keyboardists using 2 or 3 keys, playback tracks and click track all sub-mixed on the stage and sent to me on 2 channels.  10 channels down to two.

  I've also sub-mixed drum kits.  8-10 mics down to two channels.  That saves a lot of investment right there. 
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: chris harwood on February 06, 2013, 11:00:26 PM
10 channels on keys...sheeshh...
I'll never have a pair of dynamics on a speaker cab, condenser for good looks and a couple of stereo sends on an AxeFX II or even a mortal XT-live with separate outputs on the FX in the S/R loop...  naw...not in church....
Strum an acoustic....  ha!

Dang...my "professionals" that came in to help in the other thread, kept having intermittent issues on just my simple stereo send on one side... so it would jerk yer head around to that side every time it cut in and out... Forget the stereo delay based effects...
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Luke Geis on February 07, 2013, 01:57:27 AM
If I'm not mistaken the GLD goes for about 9k desk only. Then the primary stage box is 2.3K and it's 1.2k for each additional stage box ( 8 channel ) with two needed for full expansion. That adds up to around 13.5K for a fully expanded GLD. This does not include a case for the mixer, a series of CAT5 runs and a rack for the stage boxes. Probably another 1k or more? So close to 14.5K for a fully expanded GLD with racks and cases? You can find M7's for around 10k used and about 18k with the xlr's built in new. The M7 ES version can be had new for around 14K. Of course the stage boxes are extra. So yes several thousand cheaper new for new, but the GLD is 2/3rds more than an LS9. Remember I paid under 8k for mine ( new ) and after a case and router I was only in 8.5k for the thing. That is still cheaper than just the surface of the GLD. The GLD is the only other desk that really comes close in that market. The M7-32 channel desk is priced nearly as high as the 48 channel version and doesn't have the same functionality as the LS9. The 32 channel version works just like the 48 channel and there are no layers, so no expansion on input channels beyond the stereo inputs ( 8 channels which are line level inputs only ). The LS9 is of course expandable to 64 channels.
Title: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Samuel Rees on February 07, 2013, 03:31:39 AM
You are talking all MSRP prices for the GLD, but real world for the M7. Pro dealers are offering the surface and primary stagebox for way less. Don't quite me here, but I seem to remember Chuck Levin's quoting me $8.5k for the desk and primary stagebox. Sounds like you could slide in around $11k with all the stageboxes, the brand name snake, and a case to me.
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on February 07, 2013, 07:21:47 AM
If I'm not mistaken the GLD goes for about 9k desk only. Then the primary stage box is 2.3K and it's 1.2k for each additional stage box ( 8 channel ) with two needed for full expansion. That adds up to around 13.5K for a fully expanded GLD. This does not include a case for the mixer, a series of CAT5 runs and a rack for the stage boxes. Probably another 1k or more? So close to 14.5K for a fully expanded GLD with racks and cases? You can find M7's for around 10k used and about 18k with the xlr's built in new. The M7 ES version can be had new for around 14K. Of course the stage boxes are extra. So yes several thousand cheaper new for new, but the GLD is 2/3rds more than an LS9. Remember I paid under 8k for mine ( new ) and after a case and router I was only in 8.5k for the thing. That is still cheaper than just the surface of the GLD. The GLD is the only other desk that really comes close in that market. The M7-32 channel desk is priced nearly as high as the 48 channel version and doesn't have the same functionality as the LS9. The 32 channel version works just like the 48 channel and there are no layers, so no expansion on input channels beyond the stereo inputs ( 8 channels which are line level inputs only ). The LS9 is of course expandable to 64 channels.
You are mistaken. 

A fully-expanded GLD with snake should be under $11K NEW from a good dealer.  If you see an M7-48 that's not trashed for sale for $10K, you should buy it - that's a heck of a deal.  I've seen $13,500 with no case, $14,500 with case, and once again, these are USED prices.  New they're definitely more.

With the (inexplicable) price increase of the LS9, it's close to parity to a GLD, and while you can do 64 channels, that requires thousands of dollars more expansion cards, IO boxes, and goofing around to kludge it together.  I agree that using 32 inputs on two layers for mains and monitors can be cool, but in my fairly extensive experience using M7's, the only reason I'd want to do that is because you can't tap post-EQ but pre-dynamics for the auxes; something that the GLD does do.

I'm glad you're happy with your LS9.  I was interested in a used one last year before I bought my GLD, but the seller wanted too much for it, and since I'm mostly a portable guy, the digital snake was no small thing.  The M7 was never a consideration for me due to the size of the surface and the case required.  I could never manage it myself, and it would have filled half my van.  That being said, I enjoy using it at my church where I don't have to move it.
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Luke Geis on February 07, 2013, 03:20:38 PM
To be honest I haven't really dug in deep on pricing out a GLD. I look at the prices found on EBAY and some discount vendors, I only quoted the prices I have seen. But I was also able to get a much better price on my LS9 than could be found in most of the online places too, so there you have it. I didn't notice a price increase on the LS9 recently, but then again I haven't been looking? I do know that there are several people trying to get about the same price used as I did new for their desks, but that is only from happenstance internet surfing.

Each and every desk out there in the mid range market has it's caveats. None do it all basically. I choose the LS9 because I could have a one guy running monitors independently of another guy running FOH via the SM on a laptop. Two birds one stone, more or less. I imagine that the GLD can do that too, but at the time ( I was desk shopping ) there wasn't a management software yet for it. I had been shopping for a desk for several months and couldn't wait to see how the GLD would pan out.

I really really wanted the remote stage box setup to!!!! This was the biggest reason I was considering the GLD, but at the time the pricing  ( that I saw ) was a bit out of my range. The other side of the coin was that the LS9 was an easier sell to my clients. It's easy to sell something that everyone already knows. My next set up is going to be a SAC style system for the high end wedding and corporate events I do. Around where I live they never want to see the sound guy and his stuff, so they usually stuff you in some odd corner with no line of site to the event area. With a SAC style system I can pretty much be amongst the people and run the show. I'm kicking around getting the A&H IDR stage box, but now that Behringer is releasing the X-32 core, I may go that route? I have not had any issues running the LS9 fully off of the computer and having a system that literally can disappear would be cool. The LS9 still really gives a lot of bang for the buck.
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Samuel Rees on February 07, 2013, 03:48:10 PM
Remember I paid under 8k for mine ( new ) and after a case and router I was only in 8.5k for the thing. That is still cheaper than just the surface of the GLD.
...
The LS9 is of course expandable to 64 channels.

To be honest I haven't really dug in deep on pricing out a GLD.

Not much point in making comparisons if you have only dug into pricing on one of the desks! :)

LS9 does have 64 inputs to mix and some rider friendliness, but you've written off some clear GLD advantages. Digital snake included! I know you mentioned it, but you have to include at LEAST a 1000+ difference between a single STP snake and an analog multicore and case, which you still need to purchase with an LS9 even if you get some stage boxes. If you get those, you give up expansion slots, which also only have 16i/o and the GLD has 64 I think? GLD has 8 FX processors, dedicated GEQs, and built in Aviom which LS9 would need a card for (but you might not have space for). Its a bit more expensive than the LS9 but the price is well paid for in features. Obviously those features might not make sense for you personally, but its hardly an unaccounted for step up in price.
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Luke Geis on February 08, 2013, 12:49:25 AM
I dug into the pricing of the GLD 8-9 months ago when all you could see was MSRP pricing, I.E. the 8.9k price seen in most places. I bought the Ls9 about 2 weeks before the GLD actually shipped out to stores. Pricing has obviously changed for the GLD, but most vendors list it at 8.9k. I didn't factor the snake part because it's not a requirement to use the LS9. I can still stick my desk back stage and run a show if desired ( which I have done ) and use stage breaks. The GLD requires a stage box to even use it beyond the 4 channels on the surface. Which to me is weird that it just doesn't sell with the stage box as standard? However I see your point with the snakes assuming that you were to start from scratch. That would in fact even the pricing up a little.

I would say it is cool that the GLD can have all the features of the LS9 all at once, but it still costs more. The GLD does have 30 mix buses and 20 mix outputs which is pretty cool, but the average company probably won't touch all of them. I do prefer the busing structure of the GLD and find it more usable than the LS9. But again, it still costs more. And it's the more that it offers that I don't need, or want as you mentioned. The desks are pretty well priced for what they offer, but my guess is that most people don't need all the features either of the desk offer. If they have needs beyond what the LS9 can provide, then the GLD is the only other choice.
Title: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Samuel Rees on February 08, 2013, 10:20:50 AM
Fair enough, but 'sweetwater listing price' on big items is nearly a useless # because pro dealers will usually quote you much less without even a haggle.
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Jacob Robinson on February 08, 2013, 11:12:21 AM
I think one reason, besides all the great information, that we all love forums is all the great and varying opinions that get expressed.

I didn't really want this to turn into a "mine is better than yours" discussion, but I can't say I am surprised.  ;D

On forums I learned quickly that you need to have a little thick skin.  Sometimes, especially with gear, a certain product may fit a specific need perfectly, but when looked at from a general view, and compared overall on features and the total cost to utilize all of its features it may not be the best choice.

Specifically looking at this.  If you already have a copper snake that fits your needs, multi-track recording and virtual sound check are not vital to your situations, then maybe the LS9 makes good sense.  It does have some great features, no one is denying that.

My original question was based on a contemporary church setting and when you compare apples to apples and street price to street price.  Really the LS9 doesn't compare that well, if you want digital I/O and virtual sound check.  In fact I think the new Roland M200i is really going to become an LS9 killer,  I'm guessing street price on that with a REAC box will be less than $4500
Title: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Samuel Rees on February 08, 2013, 12:04:13 PM
I can't ever rag on the LS9 too hard, I got my feet wet on it and the know how I got working on it has served me well!
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 08, 2013, 12:29:08 PM
I think one reason, besides all the great information, that we all love forums is all the great and varying opinions that get expressed.

I didn't really want this to turn into a "mine is better than yours" discussion, but I can't say I am surprised.  ;D

On forums I learned quickly that you need to have a little thick skin.  Sometimes, especially with gear, a certain product may fit a specific need perfectly, but when looked at from a general view, and compared overall on features and the total cost to utilize all of its features it may not be the best choice.

Specifically looking at this.  If you already have a copper snake that fits your needs, multi-track recording and virtual sound check are not vital to your situations, then maybe the LS9 makes good sense.  It does have some great features, no one is denying that.

My original question was based on a contemporary church setting and when you compare apples to apples and street price to street price.  Really the LS9 doesn't compare that well, if you want digital I/O and virtual sound check.  In fact I think the new Roland M200i is really going to become an LS9 killer,  I'm guessing street price on that with a REAC box will be less than $4500

Unfortunately M200i also can't do virtual sound check, not without purchasing the $5000 R-1000 recording unit.
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Jacob Robinson on February 08, 2013, 12:46:05 PM
Unfortunately M200i also can't do virtual sound check, not without purchasing the $5000 R-1000 recording unit.


Good point and thanks for clarifying that fact.  And I guess you can do it with the LS9 with expansion cards, albeit pricy and cumbersome.

That is one MAJOR feature of the Presonus StudioLive boards.  Their virtual soundcheck and multi-track recording is SUPER easy and integrated well.
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 08, 2013, 12:49:52 PM

Good point and thanks for clarifying that fact.  And I guess you can do it with the LS9 with expansion cards, albeit pricy and cumbersome.

That is one MAJOR feature of the Presonus StudioLive boards.  Their virtual soundcheck and multi-track recording is SUPER easy and integrated well.

Speaking of the Presonus, has anyone looked at the new 32 channel one? It looks killer!
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Jacob Robinson on February 08, 2013, 01:06:08 PM
Speaking of the Presonus, has anyone looked at the new 32 channel one? It looks killer!


I agree.  I have used a 24ch extensively and the mute groups and extra DSP on the new 32ch would be awesome!  Now if they would figure out how to put moving faders on it and still keep price reasonable it would be a "game-changer" for budget Digital desks.  I also like how Presonus integrates their software so well with it also.
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 08, 2013, 01:08:31 PM

I agree.  I have used a 24ch extensively and the mute groups and extra DSP on the new 32ch would be awesome!  Now if they would figure out how to put moving faders on it and still keep price reasonable it would be a "game-changer" for budget Digital desks.  I also like how Presonus integrates their software so well with it also.

Honestly with the lack of layers I don't think flying faders are necessary. Convenient? Absolutely. But not necessary, IMO. Besides, it helps keep cost down.
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Luke Geis on February 08, 2013, 04:31:16 PM
My only issue with the Pre-Sonus and it's lack of motorized faders is when you switch scenes. You have to watch a little light blink till your back in line with the saved setting. Can you imagine sitting there to adjust 32 faders back to the saved setting!!!!!
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 08, 2013, 05:07:30 PM
My only issue with the Pre-Sonus and it's lack of motorized faders is when you switch scenes. You have to watch a little light blink till your back in line with the saved setting. Can you imagine sitting there to adjust 32 faders back to the saved setting!!!!!

I use scenes for storing routing, send levels, EQ/dynamics and head amp settings, where the faders are really doesn't matter because I'm just going to move them to where they need to be anyway, and I use a mixer that actually has motorized faders.
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Tim Weaver on February 08, 2013, 06:37:23 PM
Speaking of the Presonus, has anyone looked at the new 32 channel one? It looks killer!


No it doesn't!


Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 08, 2013, 08:37:13 PM
Heh, looking at the LS9 more closely now it appears that Roland was very "inspired" by it. From a distance the LS9 and M300 look almost like the same board.
Title: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Samuel Rees on February 08, 2013, 09:04:14 PM

No it doesn't!

Lol! Agreed. Not sure how they could haw dropped the ball any more.
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 08, 2013, 09:07:12 PM
Lol! Agreed. Not sure how they could haw dropped the ball any more.

Alright, color me curious. What do you guys dislike about the Presonus so much?

I've never mixed on one, so I only know what I've seen and read about them.
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Taylor Phillips on February 08, 2013, 10:26:14 PM
Heh, looking at the LS9 more closely now it appears that Roland was very "inspired" by it. From a distance the LS9 and M300 look almost like the same board.
Yeah, I thought the same thing when I saw one of the Roland boards for the first time.  Seemed like about the only difference was that the EQ knobs were to the left of the screen instead of the right.

As for buying one, I think the LS9 is overpriced compared to its current competition, but if you could get an LS9-32 for the price of 2 X32's, I think it might be good buy because of the known quality of the Yamaha and the unknown quality of the Behringer.  Not sure if it would be the best option for a church though, because it's really not very intuitive and user friendly to those who are unfamiliar with it.  I mixed on one for a church college and singles ministry for a couple years in Atlanta, and despite the fact that I knew how to EQ a channel on an analog board and why and how to use a compressor, it was some time before I figured out how to do either on their LS9.  After learning the board, my dislike for the board eventually turned to affection though,  since using all the features was pretty quick and effective once learned.

And random question that the M300 comparison made me think of: Why do most digital boards it seems, have their knobs to the left of their screens?  I learned digital mixing on an LS9 and an Innovason SY80, both of which have their knobs to the right of their screens.  I played around with an X32 at Guitar Center and found the knobs to left to be awkward to try and operate, because I either had to use my much less precise left hand, or block the screen with my right arm and contort myself to see the changes on the screen. 
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Luke Geis on February 09, 2013, 12:24:24 AM
Alright, color me curious. What do you guys dislike about the Presonus so much?

I've never mixed on one, so I only know what I've seen and read about them.

It's just limited. 10 auxes which are on a fixed busing structure and no motorized faders, which to some is a pain, others not so much. There are enough blinking lights on the thing to make someone go epileptic. Most all of the outputs are 1/4" and are non assignable, so it's for auxes, sub-groups and mains only ( hence the fixed busing structure ). No matrix's, which there is really no need with the recording capability? The new 32 channel version has a few more auxes ( 14 ) and some other features that are not really usable yet ( active integration ). The good thing is the price seems to have dropped on it a little. You can get the older 24.4.2 for under 2.5k now on the average website. I believe it used to be closer to 3k?

Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 09, 2013, 08:43:35 AM
It's just limited. 10 auxes which are on a fixed busing structure and no motorized faders, which to some is a pain, others not so much. There are enough blinking lights on the thing to make someone go epileptic. Most all of the outputs are 1/4" and are non assignable, so it's for auxes, sub-groups and mains only ( hence the fixed busing structure ). No matrix's, which there is really no need with the recording capability? The new 32 channel version has a few more auxes ( 14 ) and some other features that are not really usable yet ( active integration ). The good thing is the price seems to have dropped on it a little. You can get the older 24.4.2 for under 2.5k now on the average website. I believe it used to be closer to 3k?

I think a lot of the comparisons between this mixer and that mixer really suffer from the assumption that the application is the same.  I like to divide the applications into two streams:  mixing music and running a "show".  If you're needing to simply mix some live music, there's no reason why a MixWizard won't suffice.  If you need to be an active part of the "event production", recalling instantly different settings and/or scenes, then you need a board with a lot of control function capability.  Finding fault with a particular piece of gear because it doesn't provide the needed functionality is as much of a reflection on the type of work to be done as it is the gear itself.

So your comment of "it's just limited" is relative to your needs.  I have many jobs where  the feature set of something like a StudioLive 24 fill the bill just fine.  The advantage it has over a MixWizard really lies in the ability to bring minimum outboard gear to the job.

As to the "flashing lights" comment, I assume you're referring to the "meter bridge" function of the flat channel and the highly visible metering LED's.  I find such visibility to be nicer than not being able to see the meters when you need to.

As to pricing, you take what you can get.  Certainly the advent of the X32 has shaken up the market a good bit, but I have purchased the StudioLive 24's NEW for less than $2600 prior to the release of the Behringer desk.  You just have to shop.

Buying something because it has more bells and whistles or for bragging rights makes little sense.  If a console has the features which allow you to do your job, you can stop right there and not have to go overboard.  There will always be a wide range of requirements and applications for gear.  Find something that works for your particular niche and get it.
There is not "one size fits all"........
 
Title: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Samuel Rees on February 09, 2013, 09:51:40 AM
I suppose I found it disappointing because I expected Presonus to come out with something similarly groundbreaking as the original StudioLive. This was based on nothing but my own thoughts. This desk is a just a bit of an upgrade. So for people whom the 24 keeps very happy I understand why they might perfectly well like the new one, but I I can't join in. If they had released something a little bit more feature for feature with the X32, but built a simpler interface (like they've got some experience doing) I think that would have been a more competitive product. Who knows, though.
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Brook Hovland on February 09, 2013, 10:15:18 AM
I guess I will jump in the middle of this pile with my 2 cents.
I am in the rental business and when a lower end console is required for A/V or band, the LS9 is requested and accepted more than any other console under $1500.00.
LS9s make money.

Just speaking for the small backwards market here...  oops gotta go boil some water, Ma wants a bath.
Title: Re: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Caleb Dueck on February 09, 2013, 10:44:29 AM
I guess I will jump in the middle of this pile with my 2 cents.
I am in the rental business and when a lower end console is required for A/V or band, the LS9 is requested and accepted more than any other console under $1500.00.
LS9s make money.

Good point, the needs of a rental house vs a HoW install are often different.  We have a client that can't wait to dump their LS9 for a GLD, for their app (HoW) it just makes much more sense. 

Dick made a good point about essentially pushing faders compared to running a complex multi-scene show.  On the install side, the former has been pretty much overtaken by DSP, the latter by the better digital consoles.

For our market, the LS9, Presonus, baby Roland, DL1608, etc just aren't compelling options.  Thick skin is a must, I earned title of Presonus basher so far. :)
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Frank DeWitt on February 09, 2013, 11:28:35 AM
Alright, color me curious. What do you guys dislike about the Presonus so much?

I've never mixed on one, so I only know what I've seen and read about them.

My biggest problem with the  Presonus is scenes.  As I understand it, when a scene is changed the board goes silent for a short time.  Is this still true.  Of coarse after a scene change, you need to manually reset the faders before using them.

I am writing this from a church use perspective.  I use scenes a lot.  One for every part of the service. I don't use them like a play where you go in order.  I punch a button as I need it.  Example.  Pastor turns and faces the congregation as a song ends.  I think he is going to say something. Press the button labeled Pastor. The Worship Team is muted and his mic is up.  He finishes speaking and I press WT and they are right back where I left them.  (The settings for the WT change slightly between practice and the service so I will save there scene again near the end of the song.  BTW that button also saves all there IEM personal mixer settings.  There is another scene for the solo (saved at practice, another for the podium, Videos, ETC

For me, instant recall of scenes is the biggest advantage of a digital board.
Title: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Samuel Rees on February 09, 2013, 12:22:59 PM
All these other companies are releasing board after board and somewhere far away the LS9 factory keeps going! I have to admit its impressive. As always... I wonder what they'll replace it with! A "CLS9" with Dante snake? Could be a killer product.
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Jacob Robinson on February 09, 2013, 01:08:52 PM
My biggest problem with the  Presonus is scenes.  As I understand it, when a scene is changed the board goes silent for a short time.  Is this still true. 

If you change scenes from the computer or ipad app (the best way to do it anyhow) it does not go silent, however if recalling scenes from the board itself it does blink the audio for a split second. 
Title: Re: Would you buy an LS9?
Post by: Steve Kas on February 11, 2013, 07:16:52 AM
Disclaimer: My sound company now provides audio/lighting for "wedding band" banquet functions ($600- 1000/night). 600 bucks gets them audio (see below) and 2 x 7' vertical truss (uplit and socked) w/ 2 moving heads and 20 x Par 64 - no mics, pinning, or engineering. Yeah, we do alot of business. :) We have a full compliment of mics/DI's, etc..But, most acts carry their own. We always carry a   stash of Beta 58's and a couple of decent kick mics (Beta 52, Audix D), if needed.

In the past, we have provided audio for national acts, etc.. We still own analog Midas XL3, A&H GL3200, and a Yamaha PM3K w/ efx/dynamics racks that we are trying to rid of!! Though, some FOH/monitor guys prefer them over our digital desks (analogs desk w/ efx/dynamics racks are still making $ with an upcharge of 3-500 bucks). Some won't even use our PM 5D for the same price! Hmm?:

We're 2 months into our X32 w/ roadcase/doghouse (15 events), 3x 12 channel 25' snakes (all fit in my custom made DH!!) and very happy! X32 lives SL or SR w/ distro panel, if needed (all powered speakers w/ siamese IEC/XLR to mains-  8 EV-ELX-12P's, 4 Yorky LS-80-P's and 8 EV- ELX-12Ps for monttors w/ a Yorky LS-80P for drum/SF monitor. Our distro hasn't been needed because the venues provided dedicated 2 x 110V/20A. Subs went off 1 circuit and tops/monitors off the other.  Lots of thump and no problems thus far! We use the X32's "XControl" for windows (Free!) on a laptop at FOH (full functionality)! Yes, a laptop at FOH with a router.

Though our rider requires sound check call > 1 hour of doors- artist's monitoring may have to be adjusted during the performance. Solution: We always have a tech (the guy who helps load in/set-up- but we also train to handle simple issues like ears, stage mishaps, etc..) Albeit, we can't train our stagehands to eliminate a ring/feedback on the spot, troubleshoot system issues, adjust dynamics, etc... They will learn after many years of engineering audio, like many of us did, eventually. But, If you can't afford a tech, then worst case scenario, walk 100' to the X32 and fix the problem. 

I have not drove an LS9. But, I have mixed on several M7's at different venues (HOB, etc..).  IMHO, I will generally compare X32 vs M7. This review is not a reflection on the PM5-D. Different animal and price point.

The M7 has more functionality than the X32 regarding "EQ racks", etc.. Routing is much more difficult on the X32. Also, though I have never carried the M7, it seems like a more durable desk. The X32 seems very "breakable" (fancy word for CHEAP). But, very light weight- even in an ATA roadcase.

The X32, IMHO, has a much warmer sound and headroom than the M7 (and I presume the LS9). I always hated seeing a PM4K, etc.. on the next show's "house PA" (though it was on the TM's rider). I carried our Midas XL-3 for several years on the road, just in case.

EFX, dynamics, etc.. are comparable (live sound). The X32 is much easier to function (from an analog desk user's opinion) . Though, in a studio environment, I might prefer the M7's "cleanliness" for you white gloves. M7's comps are smoother than the X32's. X32 's comps can be harsh, especially with dynamic inputs. M7 has better efx/processing capabilty. M7 is far superior in capability, durability, and functionality. But, the M7's "sound" , ease of use, and price point, compared to the X32, make it unusable in our target market. I'm sure the same is true for the LS9. 
 
I'll let y'all know when, if ever, this X32 fails on the road. But, so far, she has been good to me and my company (cheap!!! and artist's/guests love her sound)

Sorry that I didn't have anything to say about the LS9 (orignal post). But, I saw a few posts referencing the M7- so I opined about my experience. I hope this helped. No offense to Yamaha desk lovers  Asian and Indian FOH guys love the "Yamaha" sound from the PM5-D and other touring Yamaha desks. Our PM5-D has made alot of $$ :). It's unfortunate that the X32 hasn't been given a chance in the national act market (not needing >32 inputs). Send your post production feed to an SSL/ Neve for broadcast/tape! iMHO