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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Brian Charbobs on May 11, 2014, 10:35:49 PM

Title: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Brian Charbobs on May 11, 2014, 10:35:49 PM
We did a show at a local theatre this weekend. I went up and had a great chat with the sound dude, asking him about his rig. He explained they would be in the process of putting in all new equipment in, soon. So I prodded further and ask what they plan on installing. He said it won't be Behringer. Why I ask? He told me that some acts have it in their contract not preform if the B equipment is installed.  I said you are joking? Not at all , he explained. He has a Midas installed now.
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on May 11, 2014, 10:57:16 PM
No Behringer, no Mackie, no Allen and Heath, pretty common stuff


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Steve M Smith on May 12, 2014, 04:55:00 AM
Behringer and Mackie I can (sort of) understand.  But why A & H?


Steve.
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Jeff Carter on May 12, 2014, 07:31:29 AM
No Behringer, no Mackie, no Allen and Heath, pretty common stuff
"No Peavey" was another common one back in the day, wasn't it?

Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Tim Perry on May 12, 2014, 07:32:22 AM
Behringer and Mackie I can (sort of) understand.  But why A & H?


Steve.

really poor eq section? 
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Ted Christensen on May 12, 2014, 07:35:20 AM
No Behringer, no Mackie, no Allen and Heath, pretty common stuff


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I never understood the no allen and heath!
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Steve M Smith on May 12, 2014, 07:45:01 AM
I have used more Allen and Heath than anything else and have never had a problem with their EQ or  other feature.


Steve.
Title: The Brand does Matter
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on May 12, 2014, 07:52:23 AM
While Allen and Hearh made and still makes great boards, their primary market was entry level gear. If you had a A&H, you probably didn't have a Midas, Ramsa, or high end Yamaha, or much else for high end gear in the truck.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Scott Bolt on May 12, 2014, 07:57:37 AM
We did a show at a local theatre this weekend. I went up and had a great chat with the sound dude, asking him about his rig. He explained they would be in the process of putting in all new equipment in, soon. So I prodded further and ask what they plan on installing. He said it won't be Behringer. Why I ask? He told me that some acts have it in their contract not preform if the B equipment is installed.  I said you are joking? Not at all , he explained. He has a Midas installed now.
I think that this will be a shrinking sediment from here on out.  All of the new gen digital boards are quite capable within their limits.
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Ted Christensen on May 12, 2014, 08:19:56 AM
While Allen and Hearh made and still makes great boards, their primary market was entry level gear. If you had a A&H, you probably didn't have a Midas, Ramsa, or high end Yamaha, or much else for high end gear in the truck.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I never knew ramsa was high end..guess that was before my time.

I consider the ilive high end. Way better than an x32.
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: David Morison on May 12, 2014, 08:39:10 AM
Behringer and Mackie I can (sort of) understand.  But why A & H?


Steve.

In addition to Tim and David S's points, I've heard (albeit apocryphally ) that early versions of I think the GL series weren't particularly reliable - to the point that they were apparently nicknamed Allen & Grief for a while. Pretty sure that was a long time ago though.
Cheers,
David.
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 12, 2014, 09:07:39 AM
In addition to Tim and David S's points, I've heard (albeit apocryphally ) that early versions of I think the GL series weren't particularly reliable - to the point that they were apparently nicknamed Allen & Grief for a while. Pretty sure that was a long time ago though.
Cheers,
David.

They made a shitty console ~30 years ago and someone had a bad day/night with it.  "NO Allen-Heath" appeared on the rider and it's been copied ever since.

David S. pretty much sums up the rest of the story.
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Steve M Smith on May 12, 2014, 10:10:39 AM
If you have seen the Iggy and The Stooges rider on the internet, you will see that it says:

 "Preferred front of house consoles are Midas XL4, Heritage H3000, XL3 or Soundcraft Series 5. In that order. DEFINITELY NO YAMAHAS & DEFINITELY NO DIGITAL CONSOLES."

So someone doesn't like Yamaha!

For anyone who hasn't seen it: http://www.iggypop.org/stoogesrider.html


Steve.
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Jason Raboin on May 12, 2014, 10:42:58 AM
I just rewrote a rider and included this:

JBL VRX, SRX, Renkus Heinz, Bose, Peavey, Yamaha, Behringer, or proprietary       speakers are never acceptable.  Clair doesn’t count as proprietary.

Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Doug Fowler on May 12, 2014, 10:51:16 AM
I never understood the no allen and heath!

Allen and Heath had a really bad reputation back in the 80s and early 90s.  Some of this is hangover from those days.  Part of it is also to weed out "bottom feeders" bidding on shows, or more correctly, these providers hired by promoters.

That said, AH has done a good job over the years providing quality product for a good price.
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: David Parker on May 12, 2014, 11:20:35 AM
In addition to Tim and David S's points, I've heard (albeit apocryphally ) that early versions of I think the GL series weren't particularly reliable - to the point that they were apparently nicknamed Allen & Grief for a while. Pretty sure that was a long time ago though.
Cheers,
David.
A church I was a member of 25 years ago bought an A&H 32 channel mixer. When first plugged in, it lit up red light a christmas tree. It was a modular unit, where the channel strips could be changed out from the top side. 3 bad channel strips out of the box. It went downhill from there. The church had bought it from an installer who was not a dealer, and A&H wouldn't do anything, said it was a used mixer. I heard they had a bad problem during that time with cold solder joints. I bought an A&H GL2200 new 10 or so years ago. I hated it from the start and never developed a liking to it. And it had problems early on. 6 months old and 3 bad channels and some switches that had to be routinely exercised. I hear many stories of people who loved them though.
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Jon C Thomas on May 12, 2014, 11:59:46 AM
Good luck with that!
Half the venues in this town are using X32's now and the sound has improved for the most part.

At the lounge level you are lucky to get working equipment and a "engineer" who can locate a circuit that is not overloaded. :o
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Kemper Watson on May 12, 2014, 12:52:49 PM
A church I was a member of 25 years ago bought an A&H 32 channel mixer. When first plugged in, it lit up red light a christmas tree. It was a modular unit, where the channel strips could be changed out from the top side. 3 bad channel strips out of the box. It went downhill from there. The church had bought it from an installer who was not a dealer, and A&H wouldn't do anything, said it was a used mixer. I heard they had a bad problem during that time with cold solder joints. I bought an A&H GL2200 new 10 or so years ago. I hated it from the start and never developed a liking to it. And it had problems early on. 6 months old and 3 bad channels and some switches that had to be routinely exercised. I hear many stories of people who loved them though.


  But now I have a Mixwiz that's been dropped from over 5 ft, twice, and soaked once. Never an issue in over 7 years
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Matt Vivlamore on May 12, 2014, 01:22:00 PM
I work with an Corpy/Wedding Event band and the audience size always ranges.  I don't often get to pick and choose my gear/console for the gig, but on the Band Rider, it does say:

Open Paragraph has the generic statement of no gear from: Bose, Behringer, Phonic, RadioShack & blah blah other low budget companies.

In the Speakers/Mains:
PA must be adequate for the room/event.  The system must have appropriate DSP with manufacture speaker tunings loaded; NO "custom" shop tunes allowed.  Preferred to have the system set-up with Aux Sub & Front Fills.  Band performs a wide range of music from Jazz to Current Top 40/Dance. 

And then in the Console section, I wrote:
Digital console preferred from Avid/DigiDesign, DigiCo, Midas & Yahama.  Absolutely no Behringer X32 or PreSonus StudioLive.
(I hate the workflow/interface of the X32 and don't get me started on the PreSonus.)

So far this year I've had:
Yamaha M7CL & Nexo S8/RS12
DigiCo & Meyer/L'Acoustics
Yamaha LS9-32 & VRX932LA/VRX918S
Avid Venue Profile & d&b Q-Rig with B2
Yamaha M7CL & SLS line array
Avid Venue Profile & d&b C-Rig


Oh wait, this is the Lounge... so you wouldn't be seeing this gear or request at this level.  I'm I am handling a local festival (the head liner is a C-Level regional touring artist); the only thing I read in the rider is: the number of inputs the band needs and how many monitor mixes.
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: David Parker on May 12, 2014, 01:53:48 PM

  But now I have a Mixwiz that's been dropped from over 5 ft, twice, and soaked once. Never an issue in over 7 years
I've never heard anything bad about the mixwiz. I would hope that A&H has gotten a handle on their issues since I had trouble with them.
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Patrick Tracy on May 12, 2014, 02:06:25 PM
I've never heard anything bad about the mixwiz. I would hope that A&H has gotten a handle on their issues since I had trouble with them.

There was the spate of bad grounds on faders causing them to go WFO, often intermittently.
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Brian Jojade on May 12, 2014, 02:09:07 PM
In most cases, riders are more of a general guideline than a hard fast rule.

Listing the 'no' brands is often put there to keep the bottom feeder low dollar folks out of the game.  If you're using all Behringer gear, the act will know that you like to spend as little as possible to get by.  While some pieces can be made to function acceptably, the overall reputation of the brand is not that of high end.  They are working hard to change that reputation.  In many cases, the X32 line has leapfrogged Behringer into playable territory compared to others.  However, it's still an entry level console.  If you're using that unit, it tells the artist that's your playing level.  If you spend the money on the Midas equivalent, they see that you've stepped up your game and it can instill confidence.

In the case that your gear selection doesn't exactly line up with the rider, communicating with the act and telling them what you've got and why you have it often will instill enough confidence in them that they will accept your gear.
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Steve Eudaly on May 12, 2014, 02:20:06 PM
In the case that your gear selection doesn't exactly line up with the rider, communicating with the act and telling them what you've got and why you have it often will instill enough confidence in them that they will accept your gear.

+1

I work in a town with very few options for rider friendly gear. However, 9 times out of 10, when I advance the show and explain that the options we do have available work well, are properly processed, maintained and deployed, folks are happy to work with what we've got.
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Bill Schnake on May 12, 2014, 02:59:54 PM
In most cases, riders are more of a general guideline than a hard fast rule...

In many cases, the X32 line has leapfrogged Behringer into playable territory compared to others.  However, it's still an entry level console.  If you're using that unit, it tells the artist that's your playing level.  If you spend the money on the Midas equivalent, they see that you've stepped up your game and it can instill confidence.

Brian, I couldn't agree with you more on the X32.  We use it a lot for small festivals and local acts.  When it comes to the Corporate shows we go Midas or Avid.  In our case it isn't so much that the show needs an SC-48 or Pro 2.  It is more the case that they are paying upwards or $6,000 for production a night and they don't want to see the Behringer name.  Doesn't mater that when the Midas M32 comes out that it is basically an X32 with better preamps and faders and a cooler look.  We will buy one because the client wants to see the name and we'll keep the Pro 2 busy doing some other act that actually needs that kind of horse power. ;)

Bill 8)
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Mark Oakley on May 12, 2014, 03:03:44 PM
I've had my A&H T112/IDR48 out for a month now, and I absolutely love it. Smooth EQ, great reverb, loads of DSP, flexibility for miles-the list goes on. On at least 3 shows so far, people have come up and gone "...whoa...nice board...", whip out their cell phone and taken a few pictures.

-Mark
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Lyle Williams on May 12, 2014, 04:59:27 PM
Riders let expectations be communicated about the level of gear, service, and price.

If the gig is out of your league, there is no shame in that.  The gig is just out of your league.
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Jamin Lynch on May 12, 2014, 05:11:18 PM
No Behringer, no Mackie, no Allen and Heath, pretty common stuff


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And no homemade speakers often shows up on riders
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: John Halliburton on May 12, 2014, 05:16:39 PM
No Behringer, no Mackie, no Allen and Heath, pretty common stuff


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Never seen "No A&H" either.

John
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 12, 2014, 05:40:41 PM
I've had my A&H T112/IDR48 out for a month now, and I absolutely love it. Smooth EQ, great reverb, loads of DSP, flexibility for miles-the list goes on. On at least 3 shows so far, people have come up and gone "...whoa...nice board...", whip out their cell phone and taken a few pictures.

-Mark

Three or 4 years ago a BE asked me if I'd ever used an iLive. Nope. He explained the features that appealed to him and ended by saying "the only thing wrong with it is the brand name."

I mixed on a couple of ML series and didn't find anything objectional. Not sure why the continued diss on AH.
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Steve M Smith on May 12, 2014, 05:55:37 PM
"the only thing wrong with it is the brand name."

A bit of black gaffer tape can often sort out that kind of thing!


Steve.
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Bob Leonard on May 12, 2014, 10:32:52 PM
A bit of black gaffer tape can often sort out that kind of thing!


Steve.

Not really Steve. Plenty of acts in this area won't use A&H for all the reasons mentioned. I opened for an "A" level act at a club that had a Soundcraft board for FOH, a full EAW system, and a Mixwiz to stage left for monitors. They absolutely refused to use the Mixwiz and ended up talking me into using my APB Pro House in it's place. No more issues.
 
I've never been a fan of A&H, and they don't, as already mentioned really compete at the at the "A" level with their best boards. My Soundcraft is used on stage as part of my small >1500 people system. For larger clubs or events I rely on the house system, or hire out, pushing my on stage backiline mix to FOH.
 
I also see where someone mentioned "no SRX". This I have never seen, and often see SRX monitors or other SRX cabinets used for sidefills, etc. along with some pretty large JBL arrays working hard for a good number of touring acts.
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Russ Davis on May 12, 2014, 10:59:09 PM
I also see where someone mentioned "no SRX". This I have never seen...

Me neither.  VRX, maybe (JRX, definitely!), but why not SRX?
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on May 12, 2014, 11:02:04 PM

Not really Steve. Plenty of acts in this area won't use A&H for all the reasons mentioned. I opened for an "A" level act at a club that had a Soundcraft board for FOH, a full EAW system, and a Mixwiz to stage left for monitors. They absolutely refused to use the Mixwiz and ended up talking me into using my APB Pro House in it's place. No more issues.
 
I've never been a fan of A&H, and they don't, as already mentioned really compete at the at the "A" level with their best boards. My Soundcraft is used on stage as part of my small >1500 people system. For larger clubs or events I rely on the house system, or hire out, pushing my on stage backiline mix to FOH.
 
I also see where someone mentioned "no SRX". This I have never seen, and often see SRX monitors or other SRX cabinets used for sidefills, etc. along with some pretty large JBL arrays working hard for a good number of touring acts.

Another one I saw recently was "NO DIGITAL SNAKES".   In May of 2014, one has to think about this, but it wasn't that long ago these things were kinda a PITA.  I still frequent a venue with a Whirlwind E-Snake that has the funky three stage (or something?) preamps that can only be "fully" controlled with a computer.  Its got the CIA rack that cant be plugged in at the same time as the computer.  Channels 7 and 8 are jacked in the snake box and I have to make up a 30dB difference in board for my overheads.  Anyone else know what I am talking about?? ok...nevermind...
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: John Moore on May 12, 2014, 11:09:56 PM
I've had my A&H T112/IDR48 out for a month now, and I absolutely love it. Smooth EQ, great reverb, loads of DSP, flexibility for miles-the list goes on. On at least 3 shows so far, people have come up and gone "...whoa...nice board...", whip out their cell phone and taken a few pictures.

-Mark

We have had our T112/iDr48 and Dante card now...going on over 4 years, no issues and the sound, well, fantastic....!
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Lyle Williams on May 13, 2014, 02:54:37 AM
Probably someone got burnt on a digital snake.  A failure in an analogue snake is likely to be channel specific.  A failure on a digital snake could take out a bunch of channels.
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Chuck Simon on May 13, 2014, 10:28:13 AM
The "no A&H" is a new one for me.  I have seen plenty of "no Peavey".  I even worked once with a touring Irish band that didn't want to use the LS9 available, but when it was explained in a nice way that it was their only choice, they agreed.  They were happy to use my SRX 712 monitors.  Good(polite) communication can solve alot of rider issues.

Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Jamin Lynch on May 13, 2014, 01:57:32 PM
Me neither.  VRX, maybe (JRX, definitely!), but why not SRX?

VRX? Really?
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Russ Davis on May 13, 2014, 02:05:44 PM
VRX? Really?

You'll have to ask Jason why.  VRX would be a step up for this weekend warrior, but apparently not everybody's an advocate for the series (thus the snobbery, but not by me).
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Jamin Lynch on May 13, 2014, 02:10:25 PM
You'll have to ask Jason why.  VRX would be a step up for this weekend warrior, but apparently not everybody's an advocate for the series (thus the snobbery, but not by me).

But it's a line array. ;D  LOL

I have some. In the right hands they can sound good. In the wrong hands they can sound pretty bad.
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Bill Schnake on May 13, 2014, 02:13:20 PM
But it's a line array. ;D  LOL

I have some. In the right hands they can sound good. In the wrong hands they can sound pretty bad.

Jamin, unfortunately, I have only heard them into right hands once and in the wrong way to many times.   So is life.
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Ray Aberle on May 13, 2014, 02:14:39 PM
In the wrong hands they can sound pretty bad.

And maybe that's just his point-- he's experienced enough poorly deployed (or processed... or powered...) VRX systems that he'd rather not take the chance on them again. Or someone who, upon being asked for a "line array," provided that, and it wasn't anywhere close to enough Rig For The Gig. Now, if you advance it right, as others have pointed out, and if he gains the confidence that you know what you're doing and it's the right Rig For The Gig, perhaps he'd accept it.

As Ivan would say, "It Depends."

-Ray "has a dozen boxes of VRX" Aberle
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on May 13, 2014, 02:21:20 PM
Had my  'just out of warranty' mixwiz headphone output go bad last year. Still loved it though as it was the second one I had owned and the first was a workhorse for me. Got it repaired and sold it for the QU16 which I love more. I am small local shows though - nothing big.....
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Jamin Lynch on May 13, 2014, 02:22:11 PM
And maybe that's just his point-- he's experienced enough poorly deployed (or processed... or powered...) VRX systems that he'd rather not take the chance on them again. Or someone who, upon being asked for a "line array," provided that, and it wasn't anywhere close to enough Rig For The Gig. Now, if you advance it right, as others have pointed out, and if he gains the confidence that you know what you're doing and it's the right Rig For The Gig, perhaps he'd accept it.

As Ivan would say, "It Depends."

-Ray "has a dozen boxes of VRX" Aberle

Agreed

It's like most of the items mentioned. Somebody had a bad experience with perfectly good equipment and now it's off the list completely most likely due to owner error. 
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Steve Hurt on May 13, 2014, 10:54:27 PM
A place I work occasionally had a rider come in with "No Soundcraft" on it recently.
They have a GB 32 and I have a Performer 2!

People want what they want.



Not really Steve. Plenty of acts in this area won't use A&H for all the reasons mentioned. I opened for an "A" level act at a club that had a Soundcraft board for FOH, a full EAW system, and a Mixwiz to stage left for monitors. They absolutely refused to use the Mixwiz and ended up talking me into using my APB Pro House in it's place. No more issues.
 
I've never been a fan of A&H, and they don't, as already mentioned really compete at the at the "A" level with their best boards. My Soundcraft is used on stage as part of my small >1500 people system. For larger clubs or events I rely on the house system, or hire out, pushing my on stage backiline mix to FOH.
 
I also see where someone mentioned "no SRX". This I have never seen, and often see SRX monitors or other SRX cabinets used for sidefills, etc. along with some pretty large JBL arrays working hard for a good number of touring acts.
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: frank kayser on May 14, 2014, 09:48:22 AM
I think we can all agree that some riders are made up from snippets of boilerplate from other riders.  This practice perpetuates the blind banning of certain brands and blind acceptance of others.  No one will argue that APB belongs on the "A" list.  Always.  But it was a surprise to many, myself included, to see A&H make the "don't bother" list.  Interesting history from some of the "old timers".  So much for the A&H brand "cachet".


There are a lot of head games played with the riders, as many have pointed out: keep the low-cost providers out, making the assumption that if one can afford a Midas console, one has the ear, knowledge, and experience to run it properly, etc.  Part of it may be ego in that the band can now dictate items as they have arrived.  Part of it is protecting their name - and limiting the risk of a bad show.


Whether it be boilerplate, carryover, experience, rumor, ego, voodoo, or whatever, we are in a brand-conscious world.  Banning any digital console in this day and age is patently absurd. 


One thing that remains true: the golden rule - the man with the gold rules. They are free to micromanage as much as they want when they're paying the bill.



Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Jason Raboin on May 14, 2014, 10:12:40 AM
When I first posted I didn't realize this was the lounge.  The rider I'm talking about is not lounge level.  Maybe VRX can sound good in one spot in the room, but it is inconsistent horizontally.  We have a show coming up at the Egyptian in Boise.  They have VRX installed and they will have to bring something else in for me.
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 14, 2014, 10:47:52 AM
I think we can all agree that some riders are made up from snippets of boilerplate from other riders.  This practice perpetuates the blind banning of certain brands and blind acceptance of others.  No one will argue that APB belongs on the "A" list.  Always.  But it was a surprise to many, myself included, to see A&H make the "don't bother" list.  Interesting history from some of the "old timers".  So much for the A&H brand "cachet".


There are a lot of head games played with the riders, as many have pointed out: keep the low-cost providers out, making the assumption that if one can afford a Midas console, one has the ear, knowledge, and experience to run it properly, etc.  Part of it may be ego in that the band can now dictate items as they have arrived.  Part of it is protecting their name - and limiting the risk of a bad show.


Whether it be boilerplate, carryover, experience, rumor, ego, voodoo, or whatever, we are in a brand-conscious world.  Banning any digital console in this day and age is patently absurd. 


One thing that remains true: the golden rule - the man with the gold rules. They are free to micromanage as much as they want when they're paying the bill.

Whoa there, Frank.

We're playing outside the Lounge sandbox here.  On my desk right now I've got an artist rider that is very specific, and if it's not met, they take the promoter's money and get back on the bus...

At some level, a rider is either the exact specification for locally sourced production, or it's a negotiating tool.  Which of either is mostly a matter of who wrote it and their style of communicating.  I can tell you that Celtic Woman Christmas WILL get the exact mic package (absolutely no substitutions) and lighting they put on the rider, or there will not be a show; ditto for Pat Benatar.  Asleep at the Wheel's FOH/PM got so tired of "negotiating" mics and consoles that they now carry their own, but they have very specific requirements for the locally provided, on-line (and patched) backup desk.

Above the Lounge level (where a BE is usually thrilled to get a 100% working snake & console), there isn't a lot of compromise - the TM hires the PM who hires the technicians he/she knows will provide the needed level of services to the artist, and those technicians determine how best to provide those services.  A good PM will immediately challenge things that would make it difficult for a local presenter/promoter to have a reasonable expectation of making a profit on a 75% house.  "Really need 6 Avalon preamp/DIs?  Then we'll rent them for the tour because most regional providers don't stock more than a couple of those (or any), and the expense of having them rented and flown in/out will make a $500-$750 hit to the promoter, which may make him/her rethink contracting our show."  Some PMs don't care, though, and that's when the friction starts over "negotiations."

At the Lounge level, I've gotten riders that looked like they came from an international artist accustomed to playing stadia and arenas.... and those we get on the phone and say "you're playing a 1200 seat theater with a gross potential of $xxxxx; and the promoter needs the sound/lights/whatever package to cost less than gross."  If the FOH person doesn't bend, we move up the food chain until either an accommodation is made or the promoter simply bails on the show.  I've seen more than 1 PM or FOH guy get fired by artist management because the technical rider made it impossible for management to sell shows to promoters.

Ultimately this is about money, and most artists, especially at the lower levels, will accept less than what is on their rider because the artist needs to sell their merchandise to make a profit, and no show means no merch sales.  That doesn't mean the rider is a wish list, but it does mean that whoever wrote it should be more cognizant of where the artist's income actually comes from.

In Jason's case, he works for an internationally recognized singer/songwriter with a career spanning 50 years (or nearly so), and she can easily hear the difference between the gear that sounds good and the gear that does not meet her standards.  She's got the clout (and chops) to require the equipment and support needed to deliver her performance the way she wants it heard and there's nothing wrong with that.  Jason isn't dissing VRX because he's a gear snob, he refuses it because his artist can hear the difference and doesn't like what she hears (and at her age she still has very good hearing to go with her voice).
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Jamin Lynch on May 14, 2014, 11:12:51 AM
This is the Lounge isn't it?  ;D

At my level almost every rider I receive is used ONLY to get the phone number of the bands tech person so I can call to say "There's no way anybody around here can meet this rider. I have XYZ available, is that OK?" 99% of the time they say OK.

The rider then goes in the trash.

Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 14, 2014, 11:14:26 AM
This is the Lounge isn't it?  ;D

At my level almost every rider I receive is used ONLY to get the phone number of the bands tech person so I can call to say "There's no way anybody around here can meet this rider. I have XYZ available, is that OK?" 99% of the time they say OK.

The rider then goes in the trash.
You get correct phone numbers from a rider?  You're one lucky guy!
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Jamin Lynch on May 14, 2014, 11:19:12 AM
You get correct phone numbers from a rider?  You're one lucky guy!

Usually can find a number from Facebook or the band's website.  I keep trying till I get somebody who can steer me in the right direction.
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Ray Aberle on May 14, 2014, 11:28:33 AM
In Jason's case, he works for an internationally recognized singer/songwriter with a career spanning 50 years (or nearly so), and she can easily hear the difference between the gear that sounds good and the gear that does not meet her standards.  She's got the clout (and chops) to require the equipment and support needed to deliver her performance the way she wants it heard and there's nothing wrong with that.  Jason isn't dissing VRX because he's a gear snob, he refuses it because his artist can hear the difference and doesn't like what she hears (and at her age she still has very good hearing to go with her voice).

... as I go and Google the Egyptian Theatre in Boise, see who they have coming up, and find one performance on July 8th that looks like it fits the bill as to whom Tim refers to...

If I recall correctly, Rocky Mountain AV is there in Boise, Jason- Harman house, VT4889s and 88s, I believe. If you're doing the hiring decision, that is. Haha. Otherwise CPS out of Kennewick is your next closest source for 88s. Ford Audio has EV boxes. And then in the Portland market, besides myself with 88s there's another EV rig, plus sounds like they bought a V25 rig this year, but that'd be overkill for 800 people.

-Ray
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: David Parker on May 14, 2014, 11:48:49 AM
I think we can all agree that some riders are made up from snippets of boilerplate from other riders.  This practice perpetuates the blind banning of certain brands and blind acceptance of others.  No one will argue that APB belongs on the "A" list.  Always.  But it was a surprise to many, myself included, to see A&H make the "don't bother" list.  Interesting history from some of the "old timers".  So much for the A&H brand "cachet".


There are a lot of head games played with the riders, as many have pointed out: keep the low-cost providers out, making the assumption that if one can afford a Midas console, one has the ear, knowledge, and experience to run it properly, etc.  Part of it may be ego in that the band can now dictate items as they have arrived.  Part of it is protecting their name - and limiting the risk of a bad show.


Whether it be boilerplate, carryover, experience, rumor, ego, voodoo, or whatever, we are in a brand-conscious world.  Banning any digital console in this day and age is patently absurd. 


One thing that remains true: the golden rule - the man with the gold rules. They are free to micromanage as much as they want when they're paying the bill.
yup. if you went into a restaurant and ordered fried eggs and they substituted scrambled, you wouldn't accept it. The customer has the right to specify anything they want. They also have the option of cancelling the gig if they don't get what they want.
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on May 14, 2014, 12:12:38 PM
<snip>
Whether it be boilerplate, carryover, experience, rumor, ego, voodoo, or whatever, we are in a brand-conscious world.  Banning any digital console in this day and age is patently absurd. 
<snip>

I am sorry I have to disagree with you. I was at a concert and spoke to the soundman and asked why he wasn’t using a digital console. He basically said that he isn’t able to get the same digital console all the time and the differences between them makes it too hard to be as quick as he needs to be.

I use a digital console when I do musicals and I have my preferences. I have wanted the cheaper ones to work for me but after spending a lot of time looking into their capabilities and restrictions I have had to rule out most of them.

Here is a picture of my setup with my preferred console at the moment. If I am able to figure out how to attach a picture.
(http://)
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: frank kayser on May 14, 2014, 12:40:56 PM
Whoa there, Frank.

We're playing outside the Lounge sandbox here.  On my desk right now I've got an artist rider that is very specific, and if it's not met, they take the promoter's money and get back on the bus...

At some level, a rider is either the exact specification for locally sourced production, or it's a negotiating tool.  Which of either is mostly a matter of who wrote it and their style of communicating.  I can tell you that Celtic Woman Christmas WILL get the exact mic package (absolutely no substitutions) and lighting they put on the rider, or there will not be a show; ditto for Pat Benatar.  Asleep at the Wheel's FOH/PM got so tired of "negotiating" mics and consoles that they now carry their own, but they have very specific requirements for the locally provided, on-line (and patched) backup desk.

Above the Lounge level (where a BE is usually thrilled to get a 100% working snake & console), there isn't a lot of compromise - the TM hires the PM who hires the technicians he/she knows will provide the needed level of services to the artist, and those technicians determine how best to provide those services.  A good PM will immediately challenge things that would make it difficult for a local presenter/promoter to have a reasonable expectation of making a profit on a 75% house.  "Really need 6 Avalon preamp/DIs?  Then we'll rent them for the tour because most regional providers don't stock more than a couple of those (or any), and the expense of having them rented and flown in/out will make a $500-$750 hit to the promoter, which may make him/her rethink contracting our show."  Some PMs don't care, though, and that's when the friction starts over "negotiations."

At the Lounge level, I've gotten riders that looked like they came from an international artist accustomed to playing stadia and arenas.... and those we get on the phone and say "you're playing a 1200 seat theater with a gross potential of $xxxxx; and the promoter needs the sound/lights/whatever package to cost less than gross."  If the FOH person doesn't bend, we move up the food chain until either an accommodation is made or the promoter simply bails on the show.  I've seen more than 1 PM or FOH guy get fired by artist management because the technical rider made it impossible for management to sell shows to promoters.

Ultimately this is about money, and most artists, especially at the lower levels, will accept less than what is on their rider because the artist needs to sell their merchandise to make a profit, and no show means no merch sales.  That doesn't mean the rider is a wish list, but it does mean that whoever wrote it should be more cognizant of where the artist's income actually comes from.

In Jason's case, he works for an internationally recognized singer/songwriter with a career spanning 50 years (or nearly so), and she can easily hear the difference between the gear that sounds good and the gear that does not meet her standards.  She's got the clout (and chops) to require the equipment and support needed to deliver her performance the way she wants it heard and there's nothing wrong with that.  Jason isn't dissing VRX because he's a gear snob, he refuses it because his artist can hear the difference and doesn't like what she hears (and at her age she still has very good hearing to go with her voice).


Tim,
My apologies to you and Jason for some rather flippant language, and overall lack of respect.  Sometimes I open my mouth just to change feet... hope this won't be another of those times...


My  excuse (no defense) is after reading http://www.iggypop.org/stoogesrider.html (http://www.iggypop.org/stoogesrider.html) and remembering some ranting here about some riders having never been updated and still "requiring" some 20yr old equipment - or...


I do realize that most riders are thoughtfully considered and well executed and need to be properly respected, as a function of what we do (provide services for a price).  With no disrespect to the artist, they are secondary to the contractual requirements. What we (via the contract) promised the artist (large or small) is most important. 
Title: The Layout Does Matter
Post by: Russ Davis on May 14, 2014, 01:08:36 PM
I was at a concert and spoke to the soundman and asked why he wasn’t using a digital console. He basically said that he isn’t able to get the same digital console all the time and the differences between them makes it too hard to be as quick as he needs to be.

I hope you asked that question diplomatically.  If I'm using a quality analog rig and the talent is happy with it, the last thing I need is a stranger coming up and sneeringly asking why I'm not running digital (again, I'm presuming you were more tactful than that!).

Anyway, the guy has a point in that most people can't just casually jump from an X32 to a Presonus to a Soundcraft Performer to an A&H QUxx, whereas after many years of maturation most analog boards are pretty much laid out the same way.  Maybe in a few years we'll see more shared layout characteristics on digital boards, as users give manufacturers feedback on what works and what doesn't ergonomically and intuitively.
Title: Re: The Layout Does Matter
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 14, 2014, 01:14:38 PM
I hoped you asked that question diplomatically.  If I'm using a quality analog rig and the talent is happy with it, the last thing I need is a stranger coming up and sneeringly asking why I'm not running digital (again, I'm presuming you were more tactful than that!).

Anyway, the guy has a point in that most people can't just casually jump from an X32 to a Presonus to a Soundcraft Performer to an A&H QUxx, whereas after many years of maturation most analog boards are pretty much laid out the same way.  Maybe in a few years we'll see more shared layout characteristics on digital boards, as users give manufacturers feedback on what works and what doesn't ergonomically and intuitively.

Beyond feature sets, the primary differences in consoles - digital or otherwise - are 1) workflow and 2) the differences in the way channel strip (or other section) EQ sounds even with the same Q or bandwidth, boost/cut amount and center frequency.  Both are valid reasons a BE might have a strong preference for a particular console.
Title: Re: The Layout Does Matter
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on May 14, 2014, 01:43:36 PM
I hope you asked that question diplomatically.  If I'm using a quality analog rig and the talent is happy with it, the last thing I need is a stranger coming up and sneeringly asking why I'm not running digital (again, I'm presuming you were more tactful than that!).

Anyway, the guy has a point in that most people can't just casually jump from an X32 to a Presonus to a Soundcraft Performer to an A&H QUxx, whereas after many years of maturation most analog boards are pretty much laid out the same way.  Maybe in a few years we'll see more shared layout characteristics on digital boards, as users give manufacturers feedback on what works and what doesn't ergonomically and intuitively.

He was using a Yamaha PM5000 and it is a huge console. It made for a very tight mix position. We were talking about other things and the console question came up. He was doing a very good job with a very good band.

I haven’t found a digital console other then the one in the picture I attached and its big brother that I sometimes use that will do what I want as quickly as I want. There are a few things that I wished it would do but I have workarounds for those things. This is for musicals.

Title: Re: The Layout Does Matter
Post by: brian maddox on May 14, 2014, 02:05:26 PM
Beyond feature sets, the primary differences in consoles - digital or otherwise - are 1) workflow and 2) the differences in the way channel strip (or other section) EQ sounds even with the same Q or bandwidth, boost/cut amount and center frequency.  Both are valid reasons a BE might have a strong preference for a particular console.

just got hired to di a corporate award show thingy.  i was offered choice of SC48, Profile, or M7.  i chose M7 basically because it's the devil i know very very well.  I'm sure most would have made a very different choice, but for various reasons i've spent very little time in front of any of the Avid products.  so there you have it.
Title: Re: The Layout Does Matter
Post by: Steve Oldridge on May 14, 2014, 02:06:40 PM
Beyond feature sets, the primary differences in consoles - digital or otherwise - are 1) workflow and 2) the differences in the way channel strip (or other section) EQ sounds even with the same Q or bandwidth, boost/cut amount and center frequency.  Both are valid reasons a BE might have a strong preference for a particular console.

I'm no pro (don't make my living doing it) but have looked at all of the small format digital consoles - both before I bought my Presonus 16.4.2 a couple of yrs ago, and recently as my current band (who doesn't want FREE use of my 16.4.2) is looking to upgrade to digital and move to all IEM's. I went with the Presonus because is was closest to the analog flow I was used to - at the time.  They basically need 6 AUX's to feed IEM mixes and L/R out.

The challenge for me was that ALL the small format digital's have different workflows, implementations, user interfaces, etc. but ALL essentially do the same as an analog console. I've comfortable walking up to an analog console and mixing. Can't say the same for digital as the UI (User Interface) and workflow variances are so divergent between the X32, QU16, Presonus, Si and DL1608 offerings that it's not a grab-and-go thing like analog would be.

If [today] I were a "weekend warrior" looking to move from analog, it would be a bewildering array of choices, and essentially boil down to personal choice of UI and workflow acceptance - assuming I/O capability and other features don't override.  Based on my research and feedback on this forum, my band guys are planning to go with the X32 Producer - as they mix from stage and want that "fader" available. 
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Dan Richardson on May 14, 2014, 02:36:00 PM
Maybe VRX can sound good in one spot in the room, but it is inconsistent horizontally.

Yup. The woofer is crossed to the horns too high, so it's beamy. Walk your SMAART mics across the coverage and you get a different plot everywhere you plant them.
Title: Re: The Layout Does Matter
Post by: Steve M Smith on May 14, 2014, 05:15:28 PM
If I'm using a quality analog rig and the talent is happy with it, the last thing I need is a stranger coming up and sneeringly asking why I'm not running digital

It's not just in live sound.  I get asked similar questions when using film cameras.  The classic is "can you still get film for it?" Perhaps they think I just like the sound of the shutter!


Steve.
Title: Re: The Layout Does Matter
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on May 14, 2014, 05:41:52 PM
It's not just in live sound.  I get asked similar questions when using film cameras.  The classic is "can you still get film for it?" Perhaps they think I just like the sound of the shutter!


Steve.

Now that you say it that way I can see totally taken out of context how if someone just came up and asked why aren’t you using a digital console would sound rather strange. It was just a small part of a larger conversation. This was a few years ago and I think I was looking for his opinions on the whole digital console subject at that point in the conversation. 

But it is funny that if you have a problem with an expensive piece of gear the client is more understanding then if you have a problem with a cheap piece of gear.
Title: Re: The Layout Does Matter
Post by: Len Zenith Jr on May 14, 2014, 06:01:08 PM

But it is funny that if you have a problem with an expensive piece of gear the client is more understanding then if you have a problem with a cheap piece of gear.

So true! All gear can break down but the old saying was that you get a lot more sympathy if a piece of gear goes down in a rack full of Brand new DBX and Crown than if you have a rack full of Berry!
Title: Re: The Layout Does Matter
Post by: Andrew Hollis on May 14, 2014, 06:48:06 PM
Certainly there are riders out there with "No B, No M, No XYZ clauses." Under closer scrutiny this direction seems based on some pretty flawed premises.

Simply, the kind of venue that would choose these 'lesser' (less expensive) products is additionally likely not spending the money to put high quality infrastructure around them, nor the proper talent behind them. One can see how this compounds to create an inferior product--and by product I mean the resulting aural experience. Blaming one single item in a system seems a fool's game, and is best practiced by amateurs without appreciation for the big picture.
Title: Re: The Layout Does Matter
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 14, 2014, 06:55:57 PM


But it is funny that if you have a problem with an expensive piece of gear the client is more understanding then if you have a problem with a cheap piece of gear.
VERY TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have seen a number of cases in which an expensive piece of gear was given a "free pass" when it does not work-yet a cheap piece of gear that is working just fine is somehow "messing up the sound".

I remember Hartley Peavey once saying (when asked what amp he thought was the "best") -"The one that works"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How true-yet not everybody believes that.
Title: Re: The Layout Does Matter
Post by: Brian Jojade on May 14, 2014, 07:36:27 PM
The challenge for me was that ALL the small format digital's have different workflows, implementations, user interfaces, etc. but ALL essentially do the same as an analog console. I've comfortable walking up to an analog console and mixing. Can't say the same for digital as the UI (User Interface) and workflow variances are so divergent between the X32, QU16, Presonus, Si and DL1608 offerings that it's not a grab-and-go thing like analog would be.

It depends on the size of the system you're working with.  I'd much rather walk up to a digital console that I've never used before versus walking up to an analog system with custom patched outboard.  At least with digital, you would have access to a manual and could quickly learn what you needed to.  With a custom built system, there's not likely to be a reference manual available.

And while analog boards are pretty similar, once you get into the larger systems, you have to learn what their block diagram is like.  There are plenty of differences for each.
Title: Re: The Layout Does Matter
Post by: Mac Kerr on May 14, 2014, 08:44:12 PM
It depends on the size of the system you're working with.  I'd much rather walk up to a digital console that I've never used before versus walking up to an analog system with custom patched outboard.  At least with digital, you would have access to a manual and could quickly learn what you needed to.  With a custom built system, there's not likely to be a reference manual available.

And while analog boards are pretty similar, once you get into the larger systems, you have to learn what their block diagram is like.  There are plenty of differences for each.

And on the digital console the insert patch on the compressor is more likely to work. Troubleshooting insert cables is something I'm glad I don't do anymore.

Mac
Title: Re: The Layout Does Matter
Post by: David Parker on May 14, 2014, 11:00:42 PM
VERY TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have seen a number of cases in which an expensive piece of gear was given a "free pass" when it does not work-yet a cheap piece of gear that is working just fine is somehow "messing up the sound".

I remember Hartley Peavey once saying (when asked what amp he thought was the "best") -"The one that works"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How true-yet not everybody believes that.
at a show several years ago, a friend was promoting it, had hired a local soundco, and they brought out thus HUGE Biamp 32 channel mixer. Everyone oohed and aahhed over it, and it was noisy. The guy who brought it out told us it was noisy. But it was really big, so everyone oohed and aahhhed!
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Jason Raboin on May 15, 2014, 12:21:10 PM

In Jason's case, he works for an internationally recognized singer/songwriter with a career spanning 50 years (or nearly so), and she can easily hear the difference between the gear that sounds good and the gear that does not meet her standards.  She's got the clout (and chops) to require the equipment and support needed to deliver her performance the way she wants it heard and there's nothing wrong with that.  Jason isn't dissing VRX because he's a gear snob, he refuses it because his artist can hear the difference and doesn't like what she hears (and at her age she still has very good hearing to go with her voice).

Well, almost.  Joan uses in-ears and doesn't really hear what's coming out of the FRONT of the PA.  What she does hear, and is very sensitive to, is what is coming off the BACK of the PA.  Pattern control is very important to the success of our show.  She sings very quietly, which doesn't help matters either.

You also have to remember that tickets are sometimes more than $100.  There aren't stage moves, set pieces, or even much of a band up there with her.  All there is is the music, which isn't serving as the backdrop to people trying to get drunk or laid.  It is the focus.  I think I owe to them to hear every word in every seat, and at a relatively consistent volume.
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Ray Aberle on May 15, 2014, 01:42:14 PM
Well, almost.  Joan uses in-ears ....

Glad I was right as to who I thought the artist was. :D

You also have to remember that tickets are sometimes more than $100.  All there is is the music, which isn't serving as the backdrop to people trying to get drunk or laid.  It is the focus.  I think I owe to them to hear every word in every seat, and at a relatively consistent volume.

And there's the hallmark of true professionals. "I don't get cool toys just because I can, I get the tools that I need to do my job properly, and provide the experience that our guests are paying for."

-- and that was the origin of this entire thread, and the discussion about riders-- it's less the brand that matters, and more what's the right tool for the job.

-Ray
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on May 15, 2014, 05:09:58 PM
I have always felt that it is best to have the right tool for the job.  That said, in most cases you are better off with less than an ideal tool and a skilled tech, than with the best gear you can buy and a less skilled-or should a say a less professional tech. Obviously at the highest levels only the best gear will do-but if you don't have an equally qualified tech much of the gears potential will be wasted.

It is easier to say, "if only I had..." than it is to build ones skills.  I have never been able to afford top of the line gear-but if I am honest about it, rarely is the gear my sole limitation.
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Brian Charbobs on May 15, 2014, 08:12:30 PM
I have always felt that it is best to have the right tool for the job.  That said, in most cases you are better off with less than an ideal tool and a skilled tech, than with the best gear you can buy and a less skilled-or should a say a less professional tech. Obviously at the highest levels only the best gear will do-but if you don't have an equally qualified tech much of the gears potential will be wasted.

It is easier to say, "if only I had..." than it is to build ones skills.  I have never been able to afford top of the line gear-but if I am honest about it, rarely is the gear my sole limitation.

It appears that to be a sound person you need also to be a lawyer, or have one on hand to deal with the contracts that are getting more and more crazier.
They always know how to take the fun out of it. I feel bad for a lot of you guys, that it is turning out this way.
Title: Re: The Brand does Matter
Post by: Nicolas Poisson on May 16, 2014, 04:10:55 AM
It appears that to be a sound person you need also to be a lawyer

That is not at all what I understand reading the whole thread.

My understanding, which mostly meets my own small experience, is:
- riders at lounge level might appear crazy but they are highly negotiable. They are written by people not knowing much about riders and copying other riders. They put standard mics on the riders, and will accept any replacement.
- riders at higher level might appear crazy. They might be negotiable on some aspects, or may not. Anyway they are not that crazy, they are consistent with the money at stake in such events.

Also, my own experience is: I hardly encountered huge conflicts between bands and house engineers. I find it strange to keep reading stories of wars between band's staff and house staff. Like if they were enemies forced to work together. Conflicts may happen some time, and signed contracts might be called into the discussion. That does not make sound engineers "lawyers".