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Title: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Dave Aubuchon on January 15, 2014, 02:45:32 PM
Hi everyone thanks in advance.
 I need to get internet from my shop to my new house 100ft. away. I live on a farm. I currently get internet by way of radio signal from town to me.
I know I could run a cable from my router to my home. But seeing how that's 100ft. I don't know how good my signal would be once I get there. Also Shop building has a metal siding exterior so at 100ft I don't think Wi-Fi would work.
 Anybody get any idea's?
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 15, 2014, 03:04:33 PM
Hi everyone thanks in advance.
 I need to get internet from my shop to my new house 100ft. away. I live on a farm. I currently get internet by way of radio signal from town to me.
I know I could run a cable from my router to my home. But seeing how that's 100ft. I don't know how good my signal would be once I get there. Also Shop building has a metal siding exterior so at 100ft I don't think Wi-Fi would work.
 Anybody get any idea's?

One hundred feet is no problem.
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Corey Scogin on January 15, 2014, 03:09:12 PM
Hi everyone thanks in advance.
 I need to get internet from my shop to my new house 100ft. away. I live on a farm. I currently get internet by way of radio signal from town to me.
I know I could run a cable from my router to my home. But seeing how that's 100ft. I don't know how good my signal would be once I get there. Also Shop building has a metal siding exterior so at 100ft I don't think Wi-Fi would work.
 Anybody get any idea's?

A direct burial CAT5 cable would be a great way to go.  CAT5 Ethernet is limited to around 328ft so you'd be well within the distance limits.  At the house, you can get a small switch if you need to connect multiple devices.
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Dave Aubuchon on January 15, 2014, 03:38:50 PM
A direct burial CAT5 cable would be a great way to go.  CAT5 Ethernet is limited to around 328ft so you'd be well within the distance limits.  At the house, you can get a small switch if you need to connect multiple devices.
Thanks just wanted to make sure before I went to all the trouble to dig. Where's the best place to get Cat5 burial cable.
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Corey Scogin on January 15, 2014, 03:47:31 PM
Thanks just wanted to make sure before I went to all the trouble to dig. Where's the best place to get Cat5 burial cable.

A local electrical or telecom supplier or many online retailers.  Here's one from Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Outdoor-Waterproof-Ethernet-Direct-Burial/dp/B001B6C5H8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1389818686&sr=8-1&keywords=direct+burial+cat+5
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 15, 2014, 04:01:25 PM
Thanks just wanted to make sure before I went to all the trouble to dig. Where's the best place to get Cat5 burial cable.

If I was doing this, I'd invest in PVC conduit (under $5/10' section depending on diameter).  If you ever have to replace the cable you won't have to re-dig and if you should ever want to pull another cable for whatever reason, you've got it in place.

This observation comes from 50 years or so of "home improvement" projects...
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Josh Hana on January 15, 2014, 04:08:46 PM
Cat 5 is stupid cheap. I'd run at least 2 lines, alone with a length of tie line or string to pull cables in the future if you go the PVC route.
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Cosmo on January 15, 2014, 04:29:28 PM

... a length of tie line or string to pull cables in the future if you go the PVC route.

+1.  Been there, didn't do that, regretted it.

Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Art Welter on January 15, 2014, 04:36:59 PM
Thanks just wanted to make sure before I went to all the trouble to dig. Where's the best place to get Cat5 burial cable.
Dave,

Digging is a lot of work, and direct connections have drawbacks.

My metal walled shop is about 150 feet from the wireless modem located in my house (which has metal lath), I have no trouble picking up the Wi-Fi signal full strength from it, or a half dozen other signals from other houses that are a minimum of 300 feet away.

A friend recently had a lightning strike which rendered his Wi Fi modem and the computer hard wired to it, and the keyboard sound module hard wired to it all junk.

Had he used the wireless option, the computer and sound module would have been fine.

The only thing I have hard wired to the modem is the TV, but I'm not too worried about loosing that in a lightning strike, but computers are a drag to replace even if you have them all backed up.

The guy that had told my friend to hard wire from his modem also had his hard wired computer destroyed by a lightning strike.

Art
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Jerome Malsack on January 15, 2014, 05:56:20 PM
In that case a wired option to the house can still provide the best answer if you add a wireless access point at the house and have the cable providing the connection back to the router.  Also it is an easy setup to maintain.  This will allow for
easy upgrades after time along with lower signal outside that can be hacked and Hijacked. 
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Brian Bolly on January 15, 2014, 06:28:17 PM
Hi everyone thanks in advance.
 I need to get internet from my shop to my new house 100ft. away. I live on a farm. I currently get internet by way of radio signal from town to me.
I know I could run a cable from my router to my home. But seeing how that's 100ft. I don't know how good my signal would be once I get there. Also Shop building has a metal siding exterior so at 100ft I don't think Wi-Fi would work.
 Anybody get any idea's?

If you don't feel like trenching for cable, a good outdoor WAP and antenna should work.  I like the Ubiquiti M5-HP APs and a good 5GHz outdoor antenna (Try LCom).  Ubiquiti also makes more directional APs/antennae if you want to point it over *there*.  Just make sure the security settings on your network are up to snuff.
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Dave Aubuchon on January 15, 2014, 06:41:46 PM
If you don't feel like trenching for cable, a good outdoor WAP and antenna should work.  I like the Ubiquiti M5-HP APs and a good 5GHz outdoor antenna (Try LCom).  Ubiquiti also makes more directional APs/antennae if you want to point it over *there*.  Just make sure the security settings on your network are up to snuff.
Well I was way off on my guess on length. After breaking out the tape measure I'm about 225ft. all said and done. Because I live in a rural area I can only get 5mg download speed.
Brian can you send me links to the 2 items I would need to do it your way. So As to give me a idea of cost.
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Dave Aubuchon on January 15, 2014, 06:44:35 PM
Dave,

Digging is a lot of work, and direct connections have drawbacks.

My metal walled shop is about 150 feet from the wireless modem located in my house (which has metal lath), I have no trouble picking up the Wi-Fi signal full strength from it, or a half dozen other signals from other houses that are a minimum of 300 feet away.

A friend recently had a lightning strike which rendered his Wi Fi modem and the computer hard wired to it, and the keyboard sound module hard wired to it all junk.

Had he used the wireless option, the computer and sound module would have been fine.

The only thing I have hard wired to the modem is the TV, but I'm not too worried about loosing that in a lightning strike, but computers are a drag to replace even if you have them all backed up.

The guy that had told my friend to hard wire from his modem also had his hard wired computer destroyed by a lightning strike.

Art
Art what router do you have to get that kind of distance? What was the cost?
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Josh Millward on January 15, 2014, 07:41:07 PM
Hi everyone thanks in advance.
 I need to get internet from my shop to my new house 100ft. away. I live on a farm. I currently get internet by way of radio signal from town to me.
I know I could run a cable from my router to my home. But seeing how that's 100ft. I don't know how good my signal would be once I get there. Also Shop building has a metal siding exterior so at 100ft I don't think Wi-Fi would work.
 Anybody get any idea's?

Hi Dave,

I'm looking at doing the same sort of thing, but the other way around.

I live out in the sticks where there is no DSL nor cable service. I solved the connectivity issue by going with Exede Satellite Internet Service (http://www.exede.com/) from Viasat. Yes, it does cost me about $90 per month and I get up to 15GB of downloaded data, so you have to pay attention to how much you are downloading or do your movies and big downloads between midnight and 6AM (no download restrictions). Anyway, I pay for 12Mb download speed and 3Mb upload speed, but last time I tested it I was getting closer to 20Mb down and 3Mb up. The only downside I have been able to find to the Exede service is the ping times. They are LOOOONG. I'm talking minimum of 635mS long. However, this doesn't matter for streaming movies or music.

Anyway, as I said, I'm looking to do something similar. I'm building a shop / storage building at my house and I would like to have power, water, and network out there in the shop. I think it is going to be about 150 feet away from the house, so I think I'm going to just go rent a ditch-witch type trencher and have it cut a trench from my house out to the shop location. Then I'm going to dump some big power cable, a water line, and probably four direct burial CAT 5e cables (or more likely a two inch conduit to put said cables into later).

Even at the 225 foot distance that your shop is from the house, you are still WELL under the 328 foot maximum length of an Ethernet run. I recommend that you run that Ethernet cable up to the house and put yourself a WiFi access point at the end of it. That way you will have good, strong WiFi coverage throughout your new home.

Have fun and good luck!
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: frank kayser on January 15, 2014, 09:04:37 PM
Hi Dave,
<snip>

 I think I'm going to just go rent a ditch-witch type trencher and have it cut a trench from my house out to the shop location. Then I'm going to dump some big power cable, a water line, and probably four direct burial CAT 5e cables (or more likely a two inch conduit to put said cables into later).

<snip>

Have fun and good luck!

Couple questions to the chorus;
Is it legal to run power and water in the same trench?
Is it a good idea?

is it a good idea (or legal) to run power and Low voltage Cat 5e in the same conduit?
Seems one would be asking for some interference on the ethernet  from a long run parallel to power.

Thoughts?

frank
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Dave Aubuchon on January 15, 2014, 09:22:31 PM
Hi Dave,

I'm looking at doing the same sort of thing, but the other way around.

I live out in the sticks where there is no DSL nor cable service. I solved the connectivity issue by going with Exede Satellite Internet Service (http://www.exede.com/) from Viasat. Yes, it does cost me about $90 per month and I get up to 15GB of downloaded data, so you have to pay attention to how much you are downloading or do your movies and big downloads between midnight and 6AM (no download restrictions). Anyway, I pay for 12Mb download speed and 3Mb upload speed, but last time I tested it I was getting closer to 20Mb down and 3Mb up. The only downside I have been able to find to the Exede service is the ping times. They are LOOOONG. I'm talking minimum of 635mS long. However, this doesn't matter for streaming movies or music.

Anyway, as I said, I'm looking to do something similar. I'm building a shop / storage building at my house and I would like to have power, water, and network out there in the shop. I think it is going to be about 150 feet away from the house, so I think I'm going to just go rent a ditch-witch type trencher and have it cut a trench from my house out to the shop location. Then I'm going to dump some big power cable, a water line, and probably four direct burial CAT 5e cables (or more likely a two inch conduit to put said cables into later).

Even at the 225 foot distance that your shop is from the house, you are still WELL under the 328 foot maximum length of an Ethernet run. I recommend that you run that Ethernet cable up to the house and put yourself a WiFi access point at the end of it. That way you will have good, strong WiFi coverage throughout your new home.

Have fun and good luck!
Hi Josh
I love living on a farm. I can make all the noise I want. I will have to check out Exede. Hughsnet was my only other option and I 've heard horror stories about them.
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Corey Scogin on January 15, 2014, 10:46:11 PM
is it a good idea (or legal) to run power and Low voltage Cat 5e in the same conduit?

No.
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Josh Millward on January 16, 2014, 09:50:04 AM
Couple questions to the chorus;
Is it legal to run power and water in the same trench?
Is it a good idea?

Assuming some separation, there is no issue with this. Zero separation happens a LOT more than you would think, especially out in the sticks. There will be plenty of room to put them in and not have them all wound up with one another. If I cut a 36" deep trench and put the power at the bottom, there is plenty of room to stack stuff in the trench with layers of dirt between them. Hell, around here, a lot of the water pipe and underground telephone cables are not even a foot below grade. Is that a good idea? It doesn't matter that it would freeze in no time flat up in Minnesota... this is Mississippi and it just doesn't get that cold here. Likewise, I cut through a 25 pair telephone cable in my front yard with a shovel because it was only 4 inches below grade. Was that a good idea?

is it a good idea (or legal) to run power and Low voltage Cat 5e in the same conduit?
Seems one would be asking for some interference on the ethernet  from a long run parallel to power.

I didn't say I was going to put the power in the same pipe with the Ethernet cable. Read for content, then read for context. There is NO WAY a bundle with three 0000 and one 00 aluminum direct burial cables will fit by themselves into a two inch conduit, let alone adding some CAT 5e cables to it (which you are not supposed to do anyway). The two inch conduit is only for the low voltage cabling, the power cable is directly buried by itself.

Thoughts?

frank

I'll guarantee you one thing, I'm going to do it to a better standard than I see a lot of things around here done. It will be safe, it will work well, and I'll have a shop with power, water, and network connectivity.
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Josh Millward on January 16, 2014, 10:10:05 AM
Hi Josh
I love living on a farm. I can make all the noise I want. I will have to check out Exede. Hughsnet was my only other option and I 've heard horror stories about them.
Yeah, I love the fact that I can sit out on my huge deck and see all the stars at night, especially when the moon is new.

I was using an AT&T MiFi for internet service before I picked up the Exede service. The MiFi was a pain in the ass as it would barely connect to 3G cell service at that time, but I guess 4G LTE service is available around here now... regardless, I'm glad to have the Exede service. It has been extremely reliable and like I said, I'm getting way faster download speeds than what was originally advertised.

I've heard some bad stuff about Hughesnet too, so I was happy to find that Exede is provided by Viasat instead. Viasat previously provided a service called Wildblue, but it was extremely limited in speed.
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on January 16, 2014, 11:42:30 AM
I'd go for wired. If you're concerned about lightning strikes propagating through the wires, you can install surge suppressors (for what they're worth) in the CAT5x/6 line.

To me, the biggest argument against WiFi is congestion in the 2.4GHz band. If you are in an urban, suburban, or dense rural environment, the ubiquity of WiFi access points owned and installed by your neighbors can be overwhelming. Since it's a shared spectrum, the more of them there are, the more interference there will be so the lower your signal:noise ratio will be. That means lower transmission speeds. Run a utility like inSSIDer and you'll see what I mean.

If you can do 5 GHz, you'll likely be better off because there is a wider usable band and fewer users, but 5 GHz doesn't have as long a range, and it's more susceptible to dropouts due to stuff getting in the line-of-site (like steel walls).

Rant on...

Most people leave their routers/access points at full power. Most of them probably don't even know they can change it, and the ones that do know probably figure that full power will give them better speed. The truth is that it really doesn't get you higher speed, it just gives greater range. The problem is that if you aren't controlling your range, you are interfering with your neighbor's WiFi signals (and your neighbor is interfering with yours). If everyone turned down their power settings to only cover their own property, everyone would probably get better speed because the interference (S/N ratio) would be lower!

Has anyone here done RF coordination of WiFi in their own neighborhoods? (I live out in the sticks, and can't detect any other neighborhood WiFi, so it's not an issue for me.)

...done ranting.
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Art Welter on January 16, 2014, 05:30:36 PM
Art what router do you have to get that kind of distance? What was the cost?
It is an Actiontec/Quest WPS PK5000, cost under $100 IIRC.

No way would I dig a 225 foot ditch and pay for cable, considering this took only 15 minutes to set up.

Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Joe Lepore on January 16, 2014, 05:40:19 PM
Don't discount the idea of powerline networking.  I have used them very sucessfully, and I would assume since you're talking about a building next to the house, you have common power between them. 

While running a hard cable is always the best, you can get 200M service from powerline and they are not expensive - certainly easy enough to test them out.  I have run them at home as well as at shows through 300ft of 4 pin, including on generator shows without any issues.
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on January 16, 2014, 07:06:11 PM
Not sure about the rules in your neck of the woods-but around here (Iowa) any time you dig, you are required to call in a locate service.  Service is paid for by the utilities, so it costs nothing for the one digging-other than the time to make a phone call.  Just keep in mind they only locate utility lines-not ones you own-and you usually own water lines after the shutoff at the curb.  Legalities or no, not a bad idea if it is available.
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Dave Aubuchon on January 16, 2014, 08:34:07 PM
Not sure about the rules in your neck of the woods-but around here (Iowa) any time you dig, you are required to call in a locate service.  Service is paid for by the utilities, so it costs nothing for the one digging-other than the time to make a phone call.  Just keep in mind they only locate utility lines-not ones you own-and you usually own water lines after the shutoff at the curb.  Legalities or no, not a bad idea if it is available.
Because I'm on a farm I have ran all the power line, LP lines and water lines myself. Phone cable is only one I didn't run and It runs parallel to my driveway. So there's no worries on this subject. Had I lived anywhere else call before you dig is a good idea.
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Dave Aubuchon on January 16, 2014, 08:59:59 PM
I'd go for wired. If you're concerned about lightning strikes propagating through the wires, you can install surge suppressors (for what they're worth) in the CAT5x/6 line.

To me, the biggest argument against WiFi is congestion in the 2.4GHz band. If you are in an urban, suburban, or dense rural environment, the ubiquity of WiFi access points owned and installed by your neighbors can be overwhelming. Since it's a shared spectrum, the more of them there are, the more interference there will be so the lower your signal:noise ratio will be. That means lower transmission speeds. Run a utility like inSSIDer and you'll see what I mean.

If you can do 5 GHz, you'll likely be better off because there is a wider usable band and fewer users, but 5 GHz doesn't have as long a range, and it's more susceptible to dropouts due to stuff getting in the line-of-site (like steel walls).

Rant on...

Most people leave their routers/access points at full power. Most of them probably don't even know they can change it, and the ones that do know probably figure that full power will give them better speed. The truth is that it really doesn't get you higher speed, it just gives greater range. The problem is that if you aren't controlling your range, you are interfering with your neighbor's WiFi signals (and your neighbor is interfering with yours). If everyone turned down their power settings to only cover their own property, everyone would probably get better speed because the interference (S/N ratio) would be lower!

Has anyone here done RF coordination of WiFi in their own neighborhoods? (I live out in the sticks, and can't detect any other neighborhood WiFi, so it's not an issue for me.)

...done ranting.
Hi Jonathan
My closest neighbor is about 1/4 mile away. My shop exterior is all metal. Even though I need 225ft. of cable only about 155ft would have to be dug. The rest was run length inside the 2 buildings. I have to check but I don't think I can get a WiFi signal outside the metal shop building.
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Bob Leonard on January 16, 2014, 11:16:21 PM
Buy a spool of good CAT5 OR CAT6, then take an edger and cut a slot burying the cable as you go. That will put the cable down about 4-6" and you can cover the slit by walking on it. Terminate each end with an RJ-45 and put a small 4 port hub/switch on each end. You can then run another 328' from each hub/switch, you won't lose any data, and if you take a hit it will probably stop at the hubs/switches. You don't need to enclose the cable in anything, just be careful not to cut it and it will last 5, 10, 15 years or longer. If I've done this once I've done it a thousand times with no problems ever.
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Dave Aubuchon on January 17, 2014, 12:29:51 AM
Buy a spool of good CAT5 OR CAT6, then take an edger and cut a slot burying the cable as you go. That will put the cable down about 4-6" and you can cover the slit by walking on it. Terminate each end with an RJ-45 and put a small 4 port hub/switch on each end. You can then run another 328' from each hub/switch, you won't lose any data, and if you take a hit it will probably stop at the hubs/switches. You don't need to enclose the cable in anything, just be careful not to cut it and it will last 5, 10, 15 years or longer. If I've done this once I've done it a thousand times with no problems ever.
Hi Bob
I have plenty of farm equipment. So cutting a trench is no problem. But I live in Illinois and the ground will be frozen for a couple of months yet. So I think I will just lay it on the surface and then bury it as soon as it warms up.
 I currently have a Linksys WRT54GS2 V1 wireless-G broadband router and I can only get signal about 50ft outside my metal build.
I also have a brand new Linksys Smart Wi-Fi router N750. I got 5 month ago because internet provider thought I had a router problem. Turns out that wasn't the problem so I never opened it.
 If you haven't guessed by now I'm a old analog man.
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on January 17, 2014, 01:34:07 AM
...Terminate each end with an RJ-45 and put a small 4 port hub/switch on each end...

Being an audio guy I'll assume you know about proper termination, but I'll also assume that not everyone reading this does. I've seen a lot of poorly-terminated network cables (but not necessarily by audio guys).

Keep in mind that for 10Base-T or 100Base-T Ethernet there are two BALANCED signal lines (2 pairs are used) and for 1000Base-T Gigabit Ethernet there are four balanced signal lines. This means that you can't just willy-nilly wire up the terminations and expect it to work -- even if you do it the same on both ends. The signal lines must be properly paired, or your network cable will not be able to reject interference and you'll end up with a lot of crosstalk. Just as if you had the + of one balanced mic signal on one pair of the snake, and the - on another pair.

There are two standard wiring schemes, TIA/EIA T568A and T568B. The 'B' scheme is now the most common. Pick one scheme and wire both ends the same (note that for a typical modular analog telephone base cord, the ends are wired opposite each other).

If you crimp on RJ45 plugs, make sure you use the proper type for the wire you're using. The IDC prongs for stranded wire pierce the center of the strands, while the ones for solid wire straddle the strand. Do not strip the conductors. Ensure the outer jacket is under the strain relief part of the plug.

Personally, I recommend terminating installed cables with jacks and patch panels -- it's a neater installation and allows for flexibility of moving equipment around (just change a patch cable if it's not long enough). In addition, the solid core of most "install" cable reduces the flexibility and increases the likelihood of failure with repeated flexing.

Incidentally, a "crossover" cable is wired with 'A' on one end and 'B' on the other. But crossover cables are only valid for 10- or 100Base-T; the gigabit standard specifies "auto MDI/MDIX" which means that crossover is negotiated between the two interfaces on each end of the cable. So a crossover cable isn't needed for gigabit, and a standard crossover cable might not even work with gigabit.

And one last point: the electricity can't see what color the insulation is.  ;)
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Ed Walters on January 17, 2014, 08:24:06 AM
And one last point: the electricity can't see what color the insulation is.  ;)

Just to argue -- no, electricity cannot see the color, but with CAT cable, the colors are NOT twisted exactly the same, and there are subtle differences between the pairs....so use the right ones in the right holes on the connectors...

Ed Walters
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Brian Bolly on January 17, 2014, 12:19:24 PM
Well I was way off on my guess on length. After breaking out the tape measure I'm about 225ft. all said and done. Because I live in a rural area I can only get 5mg download speed.
Brian can you send me links to the 2 items I would need to do it your way. So As to give me a idea of cost.

Let me say that I would much prefer linking the 2 buildings via a wire than going wireless, even if you do go wireless once you're indoors.  But, I have used this setup before outdoors, and it works great.  My guess is that if you set up a WAP inside your metal building, getting much of any signal at the house isn't going to happen - the building is probably acting as a bit of a Faraday cage, and knocking down the majority of any signal.

Ubiquiti Bullet M5:  http://www.ubnt.com/airmax#bulletm
Ubiquiti POE adapters:  http://www.ubnt.com/airmax#poe  (I think it's the 24v version, but read the M5 spec)

For antennas, I have used this one but it is an omni antenna:
http://www.l-com.com/wireless-antenna-58-ghz-8-dbi-omnidirectional-wireless-lan-antenna

In your situation, I'd probably want something a bit more directional.  Lcom makes some, as does Ubiquiti.

http://www.l-com.com/wireless-antenna-58-ghz-wifi-antennas
http://www.ubnt.com/airmax#airMaxAntennas

In total, you're probably looking at $200 or so in parts.
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on January 17, 2014, 12:57:42 PM
Just to argue -- no, electricity cannot see the color, but with CAT cable, the colors are NOT twisted exactly the same, and there are subtle differences between the pairs....so use the right ones in the right holes on the connectors...

Ed Walters

Agreed; I do understand there are subtle differences. Not sure what I was getting at with my last comment.  ???
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Mike Reigh on January 17, 2014, 02:44:56 PM
Let me say that I would much prefer linking the 2 buildings via a wire than going wireless, even if you do go wireless once you're indoors.  But, I have used this setup before outdoors, and it works great.  My guess is that if you set up a WAP inside your metal building, getting much of any signal at the house isn't going to happen - the building is probably acting as a bit of a Faraday cage, and knocking down the majority of any signal.

Ubiquiti Bullet M5:  http://www.ubnt.com/airmax#bulletm
Ubiquiti POE adapters:  http://www.ubnt.com/airmax#poe  (I think it's the 24v version, but read the M5 spec)

For antennas, I have used this one but it is an omni antenna:
http://www.l-com.com/wireless-antenna-58-ghz-8-dbi-omnidirectional-wireless-lan-antenna

In your situation, I'd probably want something a bit more directional.  Lcom makes some, as does Ubiquiti.

http://www.l-com.com/wireless-antenna-58-ghz-wifi-antennas
http://www.ubnt.com/airmax#airMaxAntennas

In total, you're probably looking at $200 or so in parts.



THIS!!

I've installed my share of Ubiqiti equipment and it rocks.  If you need NLOS, they have a 900 Mhz solution that propagates through trees fairly well, even at half a mile.  Some come with a dish, but at short distances, it's not that necessary.  The nanobridge has the antenna built in, just point them at each other, and a few minutes programming and that's it.  You'll have it set up in no time and it'll cost as much as the fuel to dig the ditch.
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Brian Bolly on January 17, 2014, 03:02:21 PM


THIS!!

I've installed my share of Ubiqiti equipment and it rocks.  If you need NLOS, they have a 900 Mhz solution that propagates through trees fairly well, even at half a mile.  Some come with a dish, but at short distances, it's not that necessary.  The nanobridge has the antenna built in, just point them at each other, and a few minutes programming and that's it.  You'll have it set up in no time and it'll cost as much as the fuel to dig the ditch.

You bring up a good point, Mike.  I didn't even think about a Tx/Rx combo, but that actually makes a lot of sense.  I didn't realize they were that inexpensive either.  I've heard good things about the other Ubiquiti products, just never had an opportunity to use them.  I'll have to remember the Nanobridge the next time I need to do more outdoor networking.
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: ThomasKielhofner on January 17, 2014, 07:22:44 PM
*Best Solution*

Point to point wireless bridges between the house and shop

If you run copper cable underground (even just 225') you will have lightning issues at one point or another. Could be small, could be tragic (depending on how many and what kind of devices you have networked together). Even with surge protection.

Ubiquiti or similar wireless bridges would give you all the bandwidth you should need, and don't require breaking out the trencher. If you want to avoid the existing wifi range use either 5 GHz or 900 MHz bridges instead.

The other option would be optical fiber ran between the two buildings, but that sounds like it'd be over kill for your application.
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Dave Aubuchon on January 18, 2014, 08:31:28 PM
Let me say that I would much prefer linking the 2 buildings via a wire than going wireless, even if you do go wireless once you're indoors.  But, I have used this setup before outdoors, and it works great.  My guess is that if you set up a WAP inside your metal building, getting much of any signal at the house isn't going to happen - the building is probably acting as a bit of a Faraday cage, and knocking down the majority of any signal.

Ubiquiti Bullet M5:  http://www.ubnt.com/airmax#bulletm
Ubiquiti POE adapters:  http://www.ubnt.com/airmax#poe  (I think it's the 24v version, but read the M5 spec)

For antennas, I have used this one but it is an omni antenna:
http://www.l-com.com/wireless-antenna-58-ghz-8-dbi-omnidirectional-wireless-lan-antenna

In your situation, I'd probably want something a bit more directional.  Lcom makes some, as does Ubiquiti.

http://www.l-com.com/wireless-antenna-58-ghz-wifi-antennas
http://www.ubnt.com/airmax#airMaxAntennas

In total, you're probably looking at $200 or so in parts.
Thanks Brian I'm moving into the house this weekend. So first of next week I will check this out.
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Dave Aubuchon on January 18, 2014, 08:43:45 PM


THIS!!

I've installed my share of Ubiqiti equipment and it rocks.  If you need NLOS, they have a 900 Mhz solution that propagates through trees fairly well, even at half a mile.  Some come with a dish, but at short distances, it's not that necessary.  The nanobridge has the antenna built in, just point them at each other, and a few minutes programming and that's it.  You'll have it set up in no time and it'll cost as much as the fuel to dig the ditch.
Hi Mike
Like I said before I'm a old analog guy. I've never done anything like that before. Whatever you can do to help me become informed would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks Dave
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Craig Clifton on January 19, 2014, 05:32:34 AM
Hi Mike
Like I said before I'm a old analog guy. I've never done anything like that before. Whatever you can do to help me become informed would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks Dave

Hi
       I agree with going wireless with ubiquiti links. Nanobridges are inexpensive and when setup correctly, act just like a cat5 cable connection. The biggest problem with them is the information you get with them about setting them up is very scant. Here is a link that shows some configurations for wireless links.
http://wiki.ubnt.com/Beanstalk
One important thing to adhere to when using this stuff, is to use grounded/shielded cat5 cable. This is to protect against static and lightning damage to the wireless tx/rx.
Again wiki.ubnt.com is a useful source of information.
Craig

Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Randy Pence on January 19, 2014, 09:50:43 AM
Most people leave their routers/access points at full power. Most of them probably don't even know they can change it, and the ones that do know probably figure that full power will give them better speed. The truth is that it really doesn't get you higher speed, it just gives greater range. The problem is that if you aren't controlling your range, you are interfering with your neighbor's WiFi signals (and your neighbor is interfering with yours). If everyone turned down their power settings to only cover their own property, everyone would probably get better speed because the interference (S/N ratio) would be lower!

Has anyone here done RF coordination of WiFi in their own neighborhoods? (I live out in the sticks, and can't detect any other neighborhood WiFi, so it's not an issue for me.)

...done ranting.

I live in an apartment building in a densely populated area.  There are presently around 3 dozen visible wifi networks around me, whether from in the same building, neighboring buildings, or across the street.  Most use the default settings.  I once changed the channel settings on mine to something which not shared by as many neighbors, but i did not notice any change in speed.
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Mike Reigh on January 19, 2014, 09:18:44 PM
Hi Mike
Like I said before I'm a old analog guy. I've never done anything like that before. Whatever you can do to help me become informed would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks Dave

Sure, feel free to drop me a PM and I'll get you some info. I'd even lend you a physical hand but you're probably a ways away from me.
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Dave Aubuchon on January 22, 2014, 04:44:01 PM
Hi
       I agree with going wireless with ubiquiti links. Nanobridges are inexpensive and when setup correctly, act just like a cat5 cable connection. The biggest problem with them is the information you get with them about setting them up is very scant. Here is a link that shows some configurations for wireless links.
http://wiki.ubnt.com/Beanstalk
One important thing to adhere to when using this stuff, is to use grounded/shielded cat5 cable. This is to protect against static and lightning damage to the wireless tx/rx.
Again wiki.ubnt.com is a useful source of information.
Craig
After looking at the link Craig provided this is how I receive my internet. There is a very tall grain bin in town (approximately 3 miles away) they send me a signal from it and I receive it with my radio.
 I was getting voice over IP for my business phone service from them too. But about 4 months ago it started dropping out, like a cell phone. After replacing a lot of equipment they came to the conclusion that it was interference. They said that audio was more susceptible to interference that the internet...So I have to drop the voice over IP and get raped again by the phone company.
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Mac Kerr on January 22, 2014, 04:52:10 PM
After looking at the link Craig provided this is how I receive my internet. There is a very tall grain bin in town (approximately 3 miles away) they send me a signal from it and I receive it with my radio.
 I was getting voice over IP for my business phone service from them too. But about 4 months ago it started dropping out, like a cell phone. After replacing a lot of equipment they came to the conclusion that it was interference. They said that audio was more susceptible to interference that the internet...So I have to drop the voice over IP and get raped again by the phone company.

What kind of antenna do you have on your end? The antenna can make a huge difference. since it is a fixed point you are connecting to you can have a very high gain antenna.

Since they are probably providing service to other locations they probably have an omni antenna. If you have a high gain directional antenna aimed at the elevator you may get better service.

Mac
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Bob Leonard on January 23, 2014, 09:09:17 AM
I live in an apartment building in a densely populated area.  There are presently around 3 dozen visible wifi networks around me, whether from in the same building, neighboring buildings, or across the street.  Most use the default settings.  I once changed the channel settings on mine to something which not shared by as many neighbors, but i did not notice any change in speed.

Speed is determined by the provider and hardware used. Signal strength has nothing to do with speed. You are either connected or not, but speed will not increase due to a stronger signal. The exception to that is also controlled by the provider when service type changes depending on signal strength. This feature is hardware dependent, but simply put the hardware will "slow down" the transmission rate to insure completed transmission/reception of the data. Other services will simply disconnect the device. AT&T uses this method. Transmission speed is also controlled based on the plan you purchase. Lower cost plans route through equipment throttled back at the CO. Pay more and your requests are given more bandwidth.
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on January 23, 2014, 09:35:42 AM
Signal strength has nothing to do with speed.
Signal strength ABSOLUTELY correlates with speed (assuming the upstream wired stuff isn't the bottleneck).  The various 802.11 protocols each have a number of data rates that are negotiated based on current RF circumstances.  802.11B starts at 11Mbp/s, then negotiates down to 5.5, 2, and 1Mb/s.  The other protocols are similar.  Several WiFi clients will actually show your current speed, which you can watch change as you walk around.
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Bob Leonard on January 23, 2014, 10:58:16 AM
Signal strength ABSOLUTELY correlates with speed (assuming the upstream wired stuff isn't the bottleneck).  The various 802.11 protocols each have a number of data rates that are negotiated based on current RF circumstances.  802.11B starts at 11Mbp/s, then negotiates down to 5.5, 2, and 1Mb/s.  The other protocols are similar.  Several WiFi clients will actually show your current speed, which you can watch change as you walk around.

TJ,
The protocol does not determine/tell the hardware what to do. The hardware responds to the transmission type as determined by the protocol being used. If the hardware supports the protocol all is well. If the hardware is capable of being throttled back based on the signal strength, all the better. Cheaper hardware won't attempt to slow the transmission rate which is a large factor in lost connectivity. So regardless of protocol and speed capability of that particular protocol it is still the hardware which is the deciding factor. I'm attempting to keep the discussion at a layman's level here, but think you and I have said the same thing using a different verbage.
 
"This feature is hardware dependent, but simply put the hardware will "slow down" the transmission rate to insure completed transmission/reception of the data."
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on January 23, 2014, 03:40:20 PM
Another thing to understand about WiFi is that it works very much like a hub rather than a switch. The bandwidth is shared among all devices. So if you've got ten devices connecting at 130Mbps to a single access point, and they are using the network heavily, you can expect to get effective speeds closer 13Mbps. It is also a simplex rather than a duplex connection.
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Dave Aubuchon on January 23, 2014, 06:39:21 PM
What kind of antenna do you have on your end? The antenna can make a huge difference. since it is a fixed point you are connecting to you can have a very high gain antenna.

Since they are probably providing service to other locations they probably have an omni antenna. If you have a high gain directional antenna aimed at the elevator you may get better service.

Mac
One other thing to note. The problem that caused me to lose my voice over IP, provider said it was interference. Also causes some internet issues. If I'm looking at a page with a lot of pictures (say EBay) I will only get about 80% of the pictures on the page. Won't get the other no matter how long I wait. But if I refresh the page I usually will get them all. So I take It I'm losing packets? Does that sound like a interference problem.
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Tommy Peel on January 23, 2014, 08:06:59 PM
One other thing to note. The problem that caused me to lose my voice over IP, provider said it was interference. Also causes some internet issues. If I'm looking at a page with a lot of pictures (say EBay) I will only get about 80% of the pictures on the page. Won't get the other no matter how long I wait. But if I refresh the page I usually will get them all. So I take It I'm losing packets? Does that sound like a interference problem.

Sounds like packet loss. I'd try a ping test; in OSX you can open the Network Utility and and ping from there. I had trouble similar to that recently when I got a new router(a highly reviewed really nice Asus); stuff wasn't loading correctly(similar to what you describe) and being slow. The ping test was showing around 25% packet loss. Switching back to the old router(cheap Netgear) fixed the problem immediately. I sent the Asus back to Amazon and got another one and within a week it was doing the same thing(though it worked correctly for a little while). I sent it back and used the money to get a Buffalo router and it's been fine. The reason for the new router was so that I could connect a USB HDD to it for file sharing. If you have Windows I know you can ping from the command prompt, I've done it, but I can't remember the exact command.
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Randy Pence on January 23, 2014, 08:48:01 PM

Speed is determined by the provider and hardware used. Signal strength has nothing to do with speed. You are either connected or not, but speed will not increase due to a stronger signal. The exception to that is also controlled by the provider when service type changes depending on signal strength. This feature is hardware dependent, but simply put the hardware will "slow down" the transmission rate to insure completed transmission/reception of the data. Other services will simply disconnect the device. AT&T uses this method. Transmission speed is also controlled based on the plan you purchase. Lower cost plans route through equipment throttled back at the CO. Pay more and your requests are given more bandwidth.

i dont know much about wireless networking protocols, but my response was about a substantially denser residential area not being an issue concerning connections.  most wifi in my area is also set to the same channel. while that may not be an optimum arrangement for individual users, it negates any worries poised by potential neighbors living comparatively magnitudes further away.
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Tim Padrick on January 27, 2014, 12:13:08 AM
http://www.cablesforless.com/Search.aspx?k=burial
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Rob Spence on January 27, 2014, 08:50:45 AM
Sounds like packet loss. I'd try a ping test; in OSX you can open the Network Utility and and ping from there. I had trouble similar to that recently when I got a new router(a highly reviewed really nice Asus); stuff wasn't loading correctly(similar to what you describe) and being slow. The ping test was showing around 25% packet loss. Switching back to the old router(cheap Netgear) fixed the problem immediately. I sent the Asus back to Amazon and got another one and within a week it was doing the same thing(though it worked correctly for a little while). I sent it back and used the money to get a Buffalo router and it's been fine. The reason for the new router was so that I could connect a USB HDD to it for file sharing. If you have Windows I know you can ping from the command prompt, I've done it, but I can't remember the exact command.

The windows command is "ping". :-)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Tommy Peel on January 27, 2014, 09:37:33 AM
The windows command is "ping". :-)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
I thought so but couldn't remember for sure. :-)

Sent from my Nexus 4 running OmniROM 4.4 KitKat using Tapatalk Pro

Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on January 27, 2014, 04:53:46 PM
The windows command is "ping". :-)

The ping command with just the hostname or IP address will send four 32-byte packets then stop.

Use ping -t <hostname|ip address> to send a continuous ping. Use Ctrl+C to stop the ping.

Use ping -l <size> <hostname|ip address> to send packets of a different size. (That's a lower case L.)

You can combine the -t and -l arguments, for example: ping -t -l 128 8.8.8.8. There are other arguments, but these are generally the most useful.
Title: Re: Need to get internet from shop to home
Post by: Joe Jordan on January 29, 2014, 07:57:27 AM
If you go the wired route you should consider an entrance protector on each end of the cable.
something like this:
http://www.barcodegiant.com/itw-linx/part-cat6-lan.htm?aw&kpid=18905&adtype=pla&gclid=CJHT8Ie3o7wCFSFo7AodZxEACA

This is your best protection from lightning strikes.