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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => DJ Forum => Topic started by: Joseph Amodeo on February 24, 2018, 06:06:43 PM

Title: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Joseph Amodeo on February 24, 2018, 06:06:43 PM
I am looking for 2 active speakers (tops) for DJing and my 4 person live band. I have been jamming and playing instruments with friends in my house for years and am sick of not making money... We have collectively decided its time to narrow down a set list and we have have 2 VERY SMALL yet popular local venues (+-100 people) that are ready to let us do some gigs. I also have a DJ setup im looking to gig with at these same venues... I have seen DJ's gig there with 2 EV zlx or elx (i couldn't tell) with absolutely no loudness issues... its basically the only dance floor in town and people with no knowledge audio think of it like a loud club... no one has ever complained about the EV tops loudness...  I have also seen 2 Mackie thumps used without issue there

My main goal is to not have to use subwoofers as much as possible even though it has already been proven by other DJs that play there that subs are not needed for the venues we plan to play (give or take 100 people). If we were to move on to somewhat larger venues (200-250 people) It would be nice to not have to use subs...

Im told the Yamaha DXRs are geared having a nice low end...

but i also have some RCF 312a speakers available for me to buy for under 800 for the pair and I have heard truly great things...

It has become a choice between entry level Yamahas that (apparently) can handle most of your bass needs... vs owning an Italian crafted peice of history...

also what are thoughts about making due with using EV elx or zlx speakers for a 250 person venue

PS. I have a mixing console for all the microphones and instruments etc... and plan to use an electronic drum set (less need for micing) every band i have ever seen in these specific venues has used 2 speakers 2 wedge monitors run through mixing boards.... for DJing i have a Numark NS7 with XLR and RCA outputs... THE INPUT OPTIONS AND FEATURES ON THE YAMAHA AREN'T IMPORTANT TO ME I have a mixing desk for that...
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Caleb Dueck on February 24, 2018, 09:02:40 PM
I am looking for 2 active speakers (tops) for DJing and my 4 person live band. I have been jamming and playing instruments with friends in my house for years and am sick of not making money... We have collectively decided its time to narrow down a set list and we have have 2 VERY SMALL yet popular local venues (+-100 people) that are ready to let us do some gigs. I also have a DJ setup im looking to gig with at these same venues... I have seen DJ's gig there with 2 EV zlx or elx (i couldn't tell) with absolutely no loudness issues... its basically the only dance floor in town and people with no knowledge audio think of it like a loud club... no one has ever complained about the EV tops loudness...  I have also seen 2 Mackie thumps used without issue there

My main goal is to not have to use subwoofers as much as possible even though it has already been proven by other DJs that play there that subs are not needed for the venues we plan to play (give or take 100 people). If we were to move on to somewhat larger venues (200-250 people) It would be nice to not have to use subs...

Im told the Yamaha DXRs are geared having a nice low end...

but i also have some RCF 312a speakers available for me to buy for under 800 for the pair and I have heard truly great things...

It has become a choice between entry level Yamahas that (apparently) can handle most of your bass needs... vs owning an Italian crafted peice of history...

also what are thoughts about making due with using EV elx or zlx speakers for a 250 person venue

PS. I have a mixing console for all the microphones and instruments etc... and plan to use an electronic drum set (less need for micing) every band i have ever seen in these specific venues has used 2 speakers 2 wedge monitors run through mixing boards.... for DJing i have a Numark NS7 with XLR and RCA outputs... THE INPUT OPTIONS AND FEATURES ON THE YAMAHA AREN'T IMPORTANT TO ME I have a mixing desk for that...
I'm a fan of real subwoofers, regardless of venue size.   There are very few speakers that play deep enough to consider using without subs, but they also carry a higher price tag.  Such as the Danley SM80F or the SM100F.  DSR112's over some flavor of single 18" subs works well and can scale up for the 250 seat rooms. 

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Geert Friedhof on February 26, 2018, 07:23:54 AM
Explain again why it would be nice to not have subs?
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Geert Friedhof on February 26, 2018, 07:28:39 AM
Here in Europe the dxr12 is priced right between a new RCF 712 mk4 and RCF 715 mk4, so maybe 2 of those are a better fit?
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: David Winners on February 26, 2018, 08:12:18 AM
There is no way I would run an electronic drum kit without at least one sub.
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on February 26, 2018, 10:21:17 AM
There is no way I would run an electronic drum kit without at least one sub.

Pair of 15" tops to <100 people, maybe.
To the OP, I'd look at something like 8-10" tops over 15" subs. You'll blow away the competing DJs by having some bass that goes below 70Hz. Seriously.

Chris
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: David Winners on February 26, 2018, 10:37:55 AM
Pair of 15" tops to <100 people, maybe.
To the OP, I'd look at something like 8-10" tops over 15" subs. You'll blow away the competing DJs by having some bass that goes below 70Hz. Seriously.

Chris

I don't even like band practice with an electronic kit without a sub, let alone a performance. It just doesn't sound right to me.

Even a cheap Behringer single 15 or 18 is better than nothing below 50Hz. There it's so much content down there that effects how music sounds and feels IMO.

I run a small open mic with (2) iQ8 and (1) iQ15b. Sounds great and break music doesn't sound thin. There's a cheap PA that's easy to haul and deploy.
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Steve Crump on February 26, 2018, 11:33:37 AM
Look at the RCF HD12A, better specs than the 312 and I have seen them online in the USA for $540.00 each. Here is one review that I have read.

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/rcf-hd12a
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on February 26, 2018, 02:05:14 PM
I have seen DJ's gig there with 2 EV zlx or elx (i couldn't tell) with absolutely no loudness issues... its basically the only dance floor in town and people with no knowledge audio think of it like a loud club... no one has ever complained about the EV tops loudness...  I have also seen 2 Mackie thumps used without issue there
Just because that appears to be successful doesn't mean they won't notice if you improve on the norm.

If your band brings stage amplifiers then the PA would only be used to bring the vocals above the stage sound and in that case a pair of PA mains on stands is sufficient. But if the PA has to support everything on stage then subs are not optional, you probably don't need a large sub but any sub effectively turns the PA into a 3-way system and that takes the low bass load off the tops which results in much cleaner vocals so subs are not just about adding thumping bass.

As for DJing without subs... that is just a bad idea IMO regardless of venue size simply because of how bass heavy music is these days. I have a pair of DXR15s which have been used without subs by DJs and I have never heard them sound so bad. These boxes are well known for very good sound but I tell you when a DJ makes them thump everything else turns to mud. So my speaker suggestion is to go with a pair of ZLX12ps but add a sub perhaps the new EV ELX200-18sp, you could also opt for the ELX200-10p to make the system more compact but the ZLX12's are less expensive. I rent out a ZLX12/EKX18 powered combo to DJs all the time doing 100-150 heads and it always does a great job and gets lots of compliments on sound. Another point about these EVs is that they have been 100% reliable for me for several year and hundreds of events, every Mackie speaker I have had died sooner or later and RCF is generally considered a premium brand but if you ever need it repaired you may find that is more difficult than you would expect, just something else to think about.
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Steve Crump on February 26, 2018, 02:18:50 PM
RCF is generally considered a premium brand but if you ever need it repaired you may find that is more difficult than you would expect, just something else to think about.
[/quote]


Can't speak for all RCF users, but I sent a Evox 8 back to have a connector replaced. The rep made it quick and painless for me.
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Robert Lofgren on February 26, 2018, 02:27:39 PM
The rcf 712 sound really good, even without a sub using e.g. a roland td30 in bar-like places. People have asked where I’ve hidden the sub ;-)
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Joseph Amodeo on February 26, 2018, 05:40:01 PM
Thanks for all of the answers... it makes sense that a sub would lead to more clear highs and mids... I would be open to using one sub. would that mean I should use smaller tops... such as 8"... even if i wanted to do 300 people... or should i get 12" or 15" tops just to be safe if i ever wanted to scale up...

im hearing that DXR's are shine better with subs... but do i really wanna go that route? maybe the RCF's are better... or even some ev zlx with subs...  what about the QSC vs JBL debate?
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on February 26, 2018, 08:23:06 PM
I would be open to using one sub. would that mean I should use smaller tops... such as 8"... even if i wanted to do 300 people... or should i get 12" or 15" tops just to be safe if i ever wanted to scale up...
Yes, if you have a 15" sub there is no need for a 15" main a 12" or 10" would do. However these traditional style PA speakers don't scale up terribly well if what you mean by that is to just add more of the same, you can add more to get a wider horizontal coverage area but it doesn't work out as well if it is for greater output SPL. So you will be gig size limited by the output capability of a particular box so it makes sense to get those with the highest output. The RCF boxes you started this thread with are similar in terms of SPL and sound quality with EV ZLXs.. capable when paired with a sub of covering those smaller events, the DXRs would be a step up. If you step up further to something like a JBL SRX812 or RCF 7xx or HD32 with their larger compression drivers you get a significant improvement in live vocal clarity and more real world clean output SPL, but I'm sure if you look up the specs these boxes don't look to be much louder than the DXRs but that gets into some specs gamemanship the manufacturers play.  In terms of subs scaling does work fortunately so you can double or even quadruple your count down the road and somewhat increase the size of event you rig can comfortably handle, but it will never be a 1000 person rig IMO that is something that is well outside what this class of speaker is suitable for.
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Joseph Amodeo on February 27, 2018, 03:29:30 PM
Yes, if you have a 15" sub there is no need for a 15" main a 12" or 10" would do. However these traditional style PA speakers don't scale up terribly well if what you mean by that is to just add more of the same, you can add more to get a wider horizontal coverage area but it doesn't work out as well if it is for greater output SPL. So you will be gig size limited by the output capability of a particular box so it makes sense to get those with the highest output. The RCF boxes you started this thread with are similar in terms of SPL and sound quality with EV ZLXs.. capable when paired with a sub of covering those smaller events, the DXRs would be a step up. If you step up further to something like a JBL SRX812 or RCF 7xx or HD32 with their larger compression drivers you get a significant improvement in live vocal clarity and more real world clean output SPL, but I'm sure if you look up the specs these boxes don't look to be much louder than the DXRs but that gets into some specs gamemanship the manufacturers play.  In terms of subs scaling does work fortunately so you can double or even quadruple your count down the road and somewhat increase the size of event you rig can comfortably handle, but it will never be a 1000 person rig IMO that is something that is well outside what this class of speaker is suitable for.

PRETTY GENIUS.... 

to paraphrase.... one major option of going about it would be to be to get some sort of sub (at least 15") paired with 8-10 inch tops...

sometimes i need to be reminded that bigger size means broader frequency range... (dynamic range?? what is that called?)... and therefore... pairing a sub with some 8"-10" inch speakers would be fine...

furthermore... it seems like whatever 8"-10" tops i get... i should go for the ones with the most clarity and "sound quality"
 
I asked "but what if i want to get something more scalable... in terms of more people and bigger venues?"... you seem to imply out that "scaling up" venue wise would mean getting tops with the highest... SPL...

so where does that leave us:

- sub over 15"
- whatever 8-10 inch tops that have the most clarity and highest SPL if you plan to scale... (getting 15" is only for people that for some reason need bass in their tops)

here's where i have to raise an issue... isn't it true that getting tops with higher SPL sometimes just means getting the same speaker just larger... I have been calling QSC and EV etc etc... the customer support people are very helpful and they confirmed that the 12"-15" tops simply have a higher SPL than the same model 10"-12".... i dont get it?? is there some kind of 8" speaker


is it true that people often just bring 4 tops for bigger venues... isnt this avoidable by just getting something that packs the most SPL

ive been combing the stats for these speakers and apparently EV is lieing about the SPL of the ZLX (no im not talking about the whole continueous vs max wattage thing which they also lie about) so when people say that 128dB on the ZLX and 138 on the QSC isnt noticable... what happens when the company is just lieing and now youre stuck with garbage...


i have heard that the yamaha DSR are better than QSC K's... arent the yamaha's kind of gimmicky with digital conversion apparently... and the QSC's lack a bunch of features that are gonna be crappy anyway.. and overall better built...

also QSC tops are pretty much the best in terms of SPL ...as i alluded to above... im finding it hard to believe that an 8" QSC has a higher SPL than 15" EV ZLX... people have tested it and found the ZLX 15" to be louder...
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on February 27, 2018, 09:09:38 PM

so where does that leave us:

- sub over 15"
- whatever 8-10 inch tops that have the most clarity and highest SPL if you plan to scale... (getting 15" is only for people that for some reason need bass in their tops)
It's all relative. A good match would be 8" tops with a 12" sub, 10" tops with a 15" sub, 12" tops with an 18" sub, 15" tops with dual 18" subs. Assuming these speakers are all from the same family these pairings would produce balanced sound and each step up will produce higher sustained and peak SPL and therefore be suitable for larger events.

here's where i have to raise an issue... isn't it true that getting tops with higher SPL sometimes just means getting the same speaker just larger... I have been calling QSC and EV etc etc... the customer support people are very helpful and they confirmed that the 12"-15" tops simply have a higher SPL than the same model 10"-12".... i dont get it??
This is just physics, air is a thin medium so the bigger the transducer the higher it's sensitivity and the louder it can get... all else being equal. But there are other tradeoffs that come into play with larger drivers so it's not as simple as bigger is always better. The best advice I could give you is buy the system that will comfortably serve 80-90% of your events and rent whatever is appropriate for those infrequent large events, that way you're not stuck carrying around a big heavy system that runs at 1/4 output most of the time.

Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Joseph Amodeo on February 28, 2018, 09:26:14 PM
the spl rating for Yamaha DXR8 is 129... which is basically more than the EZ ZLX112p which is 126... and also more or about the same as the ZLX115p...

apparently a speaker with SPL in the 130s and another in the 120s isnt going to be noticable...

im also interested in hearing what speakers are going to have the least "processing"... as a recording guy i know that the less digital <--> analog conversions (and vice versa) the better for the overall sound quality... also 9/10 times manufacturers are going to use cheap converters because they dont specialize in that industry or to cut costs... same goes for any gear loaded with effects etc... would that be RCF?  i really am not a huge fan of the RCF sound i kind of like the QSC K sound...i find that the JBL PRX sound like youre in the room with the singer its basically just accurate AF... where QSC K seem to have somewhat of a box-y but clear sound... the RCF just sound loud and decent... and some say smoother... but seem less crisp to me?

i wouldn't mind lugging around 12 inch speakers to small gigs because I hate renting... any small gigs are going to be very close to my house anyway.... and at least it solves volume issues at house parties...

anybody recommend any good subs with that in mind?

what is the frequency response on most subs as im seeing that the QSC K's don't go all the way down to 50Hz...  only to 56Hz...


it seems like there a war going on vs QSC vs JBL.... it seems like it comes down to what does the best in the mids and highs... it seems liek all anyone has to say about the JBL's is that they have better bass... (wtf?)... but the real question should be what sounds less harsh at higher volumes... what sounds more clear, i dunno you tell me!

Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on March 01, 2018, 12:42:09 AM
the spl rating for Yamaha DXR8 is 129... which is basically more than the EZ ZLX112p which is 126... and also more or about the same as the ZLX115p...
The DXR line has more power on hand than the ZLX and this will offset some of the efficiency difference, this is also a good example of why you can't really compare specs between brands these days because every manufacturer does it differently.

apparently a speaker with SPL in the 130s and another in the 120s isnt going to be noticable...
Yes it is.

im also interested in hearing what speakers are going to have the least "processing"... as a recording guy i know that the less digital <--> analog conversions (and vice versa) the better for the overall sound quality... also 9/10 times manufacturers are going to use cheap converters because they dont specialize in that industry or to cut costs... same goes for any gear loaded with effects etc...
You appear to be bringing a lot of baggage with you in terms of preconceived notions. All of these powered speakers have a LOT of processing in them and it is that processing that makes them sound as good as they do, so no you do not want the speaker with the least processing. There is no chance you can do as good a job as the designers did at extracting the level of performance these speakers deliver with anywhere near the same level of durability.

i wouldn't mind lugging around 12 inch speakers to small gigs because I hate renting... any small gigs are going to be very close to my house anyway.... and at least it solves volume issues at house parties...
You won't have any problem summoning a visit from the police with any of these boxes at a house party.

anybody recommend any good subs with that in mind?
Get the matching unit from the same line of speakers as your tops, not just because it will look good but because they are designed to work together.

Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Geert Friedhof on March 01, 2018, 12:04:39 PM
I own a few sets of RCF 8004as with HD32mk4, and i would do 250 cap rooms with 2 8004's and 1 HD32 per side, just to be on the safe side with lows. That's 2x18" and 12"/3" per side. Usually i can get by with 1 8004 per side. Depends on the type of music, and level required. There's an unwritten rule that your max sub output should be at least 6dB, but pref. 10dB more than the top(s). I wouldn't think about using only tops for 250 people, not even 100. 50? maybe.

It's better to turn things down than to turn it up to 11.

So my advice: Buy the best sounding 12" tops, with the biggest baddest high driver you can afford, and save up (fast) for the matching 18" subs. it's the only way to ever accomplish what you want, imho.
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Joseph Amodeo on March 01, 2018, 02:49:31 PM
PA speakers is definitely one of the hardest decisions in my life lol...

im leaning towards getting RCF art310a with some kind of subs... I can get these for 350 each and im skeptical about pulling the trigger on such small speakers...

im also inclined to just get the ZLX112p for $200-$250 and get some subs... if loudness differences are not noticable and frequency responce isnt an issue because subs will be used... im just confused as to why everybody doesnt just do this... especially since the ZLX have a nice warm tone and decent clarity... 

if processing is such a good thing.. maybe the DXR are the way to go because not only are they very flat sounding and balanced, but many are saying theyre better than qsc...

does anybody have any bad experiences with the DXR's such as with the bass contour options and stuff like that...

also im hearing that the JBL's have the best limiters where other brands have screwed up limiters that will not let you reach listed max SPL... (the more you turn up the volume the lower it gets) I want to get something thats gonna be solid in what it does not have a bunch of cheap features




Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on March 01, 2018, 05:01:42 PM
im also inclined to just get the ZLX112p for $200-$250 and get some subs... if loudness differences are not noticable and frequency responce isnt an issue because subs will be used... im just confused as to why everybody doesnt just do this... especially since the ZLX have a nice warm tone and decent clarity... 
That will be a decent entry level system but don't kid yourself there are several levels better you could have with more output and better clarity at high SPLs but you will have to pay more for each step up the ladder. People make strange choices when it comes to PA speakers, often they just buy the cheapest box they can find or the biggest they can afford because it looks more impressive.

if processing is such a good thing.. maybe the DXR are the way to go because not only are they very flat sounding and balanced, but many are saying theyre better than qsc...
They are a step up from the EV ZLX for sure, I really like mine.

does anybody have any bad experiences with the DXR's such as with the bass contour options and stuff like that...
No. The contour switch applies a smiley curve EQ that lessens back to flat the closer you get to max output.. this is a Yamaha feature found in many of their home audio products. It is well done and not at all excessive in it's boost. The EVs have a similar feature via the EQ options in the DSP menu.

also im hearing that the JBL's have the best limiters where other brands have screwed up limiters that will not let you reach listed max SPL... (the more you turn up the volume the lower it gets) I want to get something thats gonna be solid in what it does not have a bunch of cheap features
None of the boxes mentioned here have gimic features they all work very well.
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Joseph Amodeo on March 03, 2018, 12:53:08 AM
ok so now im starting to understand,

price difference between zlx 10" and a dxr10 would account for things such as clarity at higher volumes...

so even though the SPL difference between the two differently priced speakers is not very noticable, and the larger frequency response might not matter for people using subs... you are still getting a lot better clarity AT HIGHER VOLUMES (nothing to do with its Highdef-ness at lower volumes)

BASICALLY THE QUESTION IS...

should I get the RCF art 310a? are these speakers going to be able to handle large events (100, 250, 300 person) WHEN USED with a sub woofer?... am i going to regret not just getting some zlx112p for small 50 person gigs if i try to bust out the RCF 10" and they arent loud enough or something.

i already know that the RCF are known for a certain clarity in treble and mids when cranked... and decent bass. not sure whether this is necessarily the same level of clarity as QSC K in terms of numbers and specs... but it certainly has more character and the illusion of having this "magical" ability to maintain clarity when pushed...

a 10" with clarity at high volumes is the main selling point for me... dont need 12" or 15" if i use a sub.... wont need "deep mode" or DXR lower frequency response etc etc....

...  but are the RCF art 310a going to be so small that all i end up with pathetic max SPL... these are known for being smaller than most 10" speakers as well... i can't really imagine these speakers competing with a 12 inch in terms of loudness (not frequency)... while i can imagine a dxr 10" 131SPL being non noticable from a dxr12 132


QSC K12 : SPL 129
QSC k10 : SPL 128
FORUMS: "Dude!! get a sub and just get K10 's to save money... 1 dB isnt gonna be noticable"

RCF art312a : SPL 127
RCF art310a : SPL 128
FORUMS: "Dude that RCF 10" is gonna be too weak! 15" speakers are way better even if you use with subs"


theres a cosmic storm over the forums sometimes... don't be alarmed, side effects may include random jumps between alternate realities for a sec and then back again...

the only explaination is that the specs are incorrect... and all companies do use the same method for calculating it... they hold a special SPL meter the same distance away... so im pretty stumped..


Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: David Morison on March 03, 2018, 09:03:12 AM

BASICALLY THE QUESTION IS...

should I get the RCF art 310a?

I think you're rapidly approaching the point where the best thing you can do is invest the time (and maybe a bit of money) in getting some of these speakers pointed at your own ears.

I know in some territories this is easier said than done, but make the effort to find out who the dealers are for some of these products near you and ask for demo's. If you can't get a demo per se, hire them for one event and see how they do in real life. Yeah, it's more money up front, but it's a lot less than ending up with speakers you just don't like or that won't cover the jobs you want them to do.

The thing with specs is, there are different ways of measuring/interpreting speakers performance, as you've learned already and the thing with opinions is that we all have our own filters based on our physical sense of hearing plus our accumulated experience of all the listening we've done over our lives - however much or little that may be. So no-one's experience of hearing a loudspeaker is going to exactly match your opinions, and unless any respondents have heard the exact combination of boxes you're asking about in a direct A-B comparison, their recollections may be influenced by a bunch of other factors.

FWIW,
David.
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Joseph Amodeo on March 04, 2018, 11:59:32 AM
I actually have gone to some music stores and tested out the speakers, this is why i kinda like the ZLX because of their warm deep sound... as is expected i couldnt really test SPL per se... just the overall sound...

the QSC K and JBL prs seemed pretty much the same to me... and were spoken highly of by the floor person...

the samson stuff seemed pretty flat to me i didnt like it

the DXR sounded flat but the grill was just so sexy and any song i played on it sounded very official,

thumps sounded surprisingly good


last night was the rockaway st patricks day parade and i was in the main bar people were going to... the DJ had two QSC's and two subs... and basically IT SOUNDED HORRIBLE... at close distance... far away it sounded OK... but when I went by the booth to check out his setup it sounded extremely muddy on the highs and mids... and the bass was, well, bass... it also wasn't that loud over all the voices and stuff... and i think he had 15" tops...

this leads me to believe i should get the RCF... because i just want something that will really do well on the highs and mids at high volumes... but the only problem is... i can only find their 10" and im worried i will run into volume problems... even though im well aware that bigger only means more bass responce... and only slight increases in SPL...

kinda a paradox


Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Lyle Williams on March 04, 2018, 03:35:55 PM
If you don't use subs you will turn the tops up until they hurt people's ears.  A good low end makes people feel the music and feel that it is loud and immersive enough.

Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Scott Holtzman on March 04, 2018, 04:11:49 PM
If you don't use subs you will turn the tops up until they hurt people's ears.  A good low end makes people feel the music and feel that it is loud and immersive enough.

What QSC rig did he have?  Were the KW181's or K-Sub's? 
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Joseph Amodeo on March 04, 2018, 06:41:12 PM
I have no idea what subs he was using, they were vertical rather than short fat ones... and the entire point im making is that even with subs... the QSC K tops sounded EXTREMELY muddy... when i was close to the booth....  from accross the room they sounded fine (i guess)... maybe that's as good as it gets... but id like to hold out hope that the RCF sound better.. (kinda hard to get a live demo of RCF but they are cheaper so id be happy with them if it turns out my theory is false)
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on March 04, 2018, 10:01:53 PM
I have no idea what subs he was using, they were vertical rather than short fat ones...
That would be the K sub, it is portable but it's sound is not a favorite among reviewers. The unfortunate thing with DJs is that it is very likely he/she was simply over driving their mixer/console or the tracks they were playing were bad sounding to begin with. Overall QSC powered speakers are well respected so I'd say this one experience you had is not representative of the brand.
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on March 04, 2018, 10:16:06 PM
I actually have gone to some music stores and tested out the speakers, this is why i kinda like the ZLX because of their warm deep sound...
the QSC K and JBL prs seemed pretty much the same to me... and were spoken highly of by the floor person...

the samson stuff seemed pretty flat to me i didnt like it

the DXR sounded flat but the grill was just so sexy and any song i played on it sounded very official,

thumps sounded surprisingly good

You are making a classic mistake here with these auditions, you are gravitating to boxes with the roundest/warmest sound which also means the most bass output but you need at least 1 sub to do events of any size and as soon as you add a sub the bass response of the tops DOESN'T MATTER anymore because you're supposed to high pass the tops. Actually this could be why that QSC system sounded so muddy, they may have been running the tops fullrange which messes up that whole low-mid crossover area. DJs are famous for doing this... and a few other things... bugs the hell out of me. And don't forget that there are menu and switch settings on the back of these speakers for selecting between flat, monitor, or music modes that will make a noticable difference to the sound so you need to be aware of how these are set when comparing.
So anyway back on track, what you should be doing when auditioning speakers is listening for those with the cleanest and most present mids and highs(Yamaha DXRs), you pair those with a capable sub, correctly engage crossovers on all boxes and you will have loud and clean sound.


Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Don T. Williams on March 04, 2018, 11:14:42 PM
I have no idea what subs he was using, they were vertical rather than short fat ones... and the entire point im making is that even with subs... the QSC K tops sounded EXTREMELY muddy... when i was close to the booth....  from accross the room they sounded fine (i guess)... maybe that's as good as it gets... but id like to hold out hope that the RCF sound better.. (kinda hard to get a live demo of RCF but they are cheaper so id be happy with them if it turns out my theory is false)
How someone else uses (and abuses) their gear and audience is not a way to judge ANY gear.  I still run into local band's "guest engineers" (and brother-in-laws) that take my great sounding 4-way system and make it sound like their overdriven 15" 2-way club system, only louder!  I know it's hard to demo gear in a store, but it's much worse to judge a system run by a random DJ in a random bar!
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Joseph Amodeo on March 05, 2018, 09:18:20 AM
You are making a classic mistake here with these auditions, you are gravitating to boxes with the roundest/warmest sound which also means the most bass output but you need at least 1 sub to do events of any size and as soon as you add a sub the bass response of the tops DOESN'T MATTER anymore because you're supposed to high pass the tops. Actually this could be why that QSC system sounded so muddy, they may have been running the tops fullrange which messes up that whole low-mid crossover area. DJs are famous for doing this... and a few other things... bugs the hell out of me. And don't forget that there are menu and switch settings on the back of these speakers for selecting between flat, monitor, or music modes that will make a noticable difference to the sound so you need to be aware of how these are set when comparing.
So anyway back on track, what you should be doing when auditioning speakers is listening for those with the cleanest and most present mids and highs(Yamaha DXRs), you pair those with a capable sub, correctly engage crossovers on all boxes and you will have loud and clean sound.


one of the points i was trying to make is that i want to get the RCF's for that reason... i was just listing what i noticed about each speaker... and ultimately the warmth or tone wasnt enough to sway me...

also... REALLY!?!? dj's will play tops full range even when they have subs... LOL... this was a big company in this area... they send guys out to pretty much any party you can imagine... my dad lives above them and doesnt really talk to them... but he says at 5 am you can always hear them comming back an banging around unloading speakers downstairs... the company owns all the equipment and probably pays the djs diddly squat but they pretty much do up to 10 gigs at a time... i find it hard to believe they wouldnt teach their DJ's to not do that... very odd...

also if he was properly using crossover... that tells me the 15" speakers and subs he had were just being overdriven and probably not powerful enough for a medium sized bar... and really makes me skeptical about buying the unusually small RCF 310a
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: David Winners on March 05, 2018, 09:54:33 AM
What rigs have you been around that do sound good to you? That may be a good place to start.
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Don T. Williams on March 05, 2018, 11:53:25 AM

also... REALLY!?!? dj's will play tops full range even when they have subs... LOL... this was a big company in this area... they send guys out to pretty much any party you can imagine... /quote]

Joseph, you are assuming that the DJ's really care if they getting the "best possible sound quality".  Time and time again, I find that the goal of the DJ is "loudest and bassiest".  Many seem oblivious to distortion, and much of the music is distorted to start with.  The DJ has attended a recent EDM event and attempts to reproduce that experience with a pair of 15" 2-way's for 200 people at a wedding.  The closest they can come is to just crank the bass until it can't crank any more. 

I'm not trying to disparage DJ's. Their job is get people dancing and make the party exciting!  Low distortion sound is way, way, way down the list of priorities for many (and maybe most) DJs.  There are exceptions, and I know some forum members and local DJ's here really care and "get it".  They have quality equipment and use it correctly . . . but not most.
 
So, yes DJs do run the speakers full range even with subs.  My rental returns tell me that no matter how much you explain how much better the system sounds properly crossed-over, they don't get it or don't care.  They "mess" with the controls until it sounds the loudest, quality and distortion be damned!  Some DJ's have never actually heard undistorted high quality bass.  Their reference point is a boom box, car stereo, and really bad club systems.  If they have heard an ultra expensive club system (none around here), they don't realize the pair of 15" 2-ways they throw in the back seat of the car can just never emulate that sound!  This forum is trying hard to change that and enlighten the masses.
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Joseph Amodeo on March 05, 2018, 02:17:34 PM

also... REALLY!?!? dj's will play tops full range even when they have subs... LOL... this was a big company in this area... they send guys out to pretty much any party you can imagine... /quote]

Joseph, you are assuming that the DJ's really care if they getting the "best possible sound quality".  Time and time again, I find that the goal of the DJ is "loudest and bassiest".  Many seem oblivious to distortion, and much of the music is distorted to start with.  The DJ has attended a recent EDM event and attempts to reproduce that experience with a pair of 15" 2-way's for 200 people at a wedding.  The closest they can come is to just crank the bass until it can't crank any more. 

I'm not trying to disparage DJ's. Their job is get people dancing and make the party exciting!  Low distortion sound is way, way, way down the list of priorities for many (and maybe most) DJs.  There are exceptions, and I know some forum members and local DJ's here really care and "get it".  They have quality equipment and use it correctly . . . but not most.
 
So, yes DJs do run the speakers full range even with subs.  My rental returns tell me that no matter how much you explain how much better the system sounds properly crossed-over, they don't get it or don't care.  They "mess" with the controls until it sounds the loudest, quality and distortion be damned!  Some DJ's have never actually heard undistorted high quality bass.  Their reference point is a boom box, car stereo, and really bad club systems.  If they have heard an ultra expensive club system (none around here), they don't realize the pair of 15" 2-ways they throw in the back seat of the car can just never emulate that sound!  This forum is trying hard to change that and enlighten the masses.



Im still curious if two RCF 310 with a sub or two will be loud enough for 100-250 people venues... or weddings? small barbecues? auditoriums? (all of which representing different loudness needs)

im positive the RCF will be "clear" enough in the highs and mids based on reputation and reading about their construction as opposed to something such as QSC K... and the few demo's i have heard... the tradeoff is they arent necessarily as punchy as the QSC... in my opinion... but this tradeoff means they have that smooth treble at high volumes... (right or wrong?)... and i know many have pointed out that clarity and smoothness means the speakers sound louder and can be heard farther... as opposed to technically mathematically spec-ed out louder speakers that are less smooth... or cant hold up clarity at these levels... which is literally what ive heard about RCF vs QSC... that QSC just sounds harsh at high volumes and RCF gets better and better...




Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on March 05, 2018, 07:28:49 PM
Quote from: Joseph Amodeo
Im still curious if two RCF 310 with a sub or two will be loud enough for 100-250 people venues...

Don't get lost in brand generalizations, every manufacturer builds a range of products from low cost entry level to touring grade and you do get more speaker for every step up the ladder. The RCF speakers you seem to be a little obsessed about here are entry level and in my personal opinion will leave you wanting at those larger events.
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Joseph Amodeo on March 06, 2018, 10:56:34 AM
Don't get lost in brand generalizations, every manufacturer builds a range of products from low cost entry level to touring grade and you do get more speaker for every step up the ladder. The RCF speakers you seem to be a little obsessed about here are entry level and in my personal opinion will leave you wanting at those larger events.


yeah thats what i was asking... the 3 series are pretty much known for good highs and mids when loud... but im sure they have better stuff... i do realize that good brands do have their entry level stuff (eons)

does anybody have any experience with the HD series?  will these or 10" RCF 7 series with a sub do alright for larger events like weddings, medium sized bars etc...

to be honest ive never actually counted how many people there are in a medium sized one room bar and always assumed that was along the lines of 100 person... 250 would be maybe an auditorium?? and 300+ a club?
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Geert Friedhof on March 06, 2018, 11:51:53 AM
I own a few sets of RCF 8004as with HD32mk4, and i would do 250 cap rooms with 2 8004's and 1 HD32 per side, just to be on the safe side with lows. That's 2x18" and 12"/3" per side. Usually i can get by with 1 8004 per side. Depends on the type of music, and level required. There's an unwritten rule that your max sub output should be at least 6dB, but pref. 10dB more than the top(s). I wouldn't think about using only tops for 250 people, not even 100. 50? maybe.

It's better to turn things down than to turn it up to 11.

So my advice: Buy the best sounding 12" tops, with the biggest baddest high driver you can afford, and save up (fast) for the matching 18" subs. it's the only way to ever accomplish what you want, imho.

 :o  ??? Have you read that post already?

Almost all 10" tops (except the really expensive ones) lack a bit of low mids, making them sound 'nasal' compared to 12" when driven hard. I sure wouldn't use them stand alone, except at very low levels or speech. 12" is the sweet spot for clarity and still some low/low-mid.
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 07, 2018, 01:19:23 AM
:o  ??? Have you read that post already?

Almost all 10" tops (except the really expensive ones) lack a bit of low mids, making them sound 'nasal' compared to 12" when driven hard. I sure wouldn't use them stand alone, except at very low levels or speech. 12" is the sweet spot for clarity and still some low/low-mid.

Then there is the question - why drive a system to the bloody edge?  That might be one reason it sounds bad... just sayin'.
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Joseph Amodeo on March 07, 2018, 10:08:58 PM
:o  ??? Have you read that post already?

Almost all 10" tops (except the really expensive ones) lack a bit of low mids, making them sound 'nasal' compared to 12" when driven hard. I sure wouldn't use them stand alone, except at very low levels or speech. 12" is the sweet spot for clarity and still some low/low-mid.

this is news to me...

im pretty sure i dont really need ANY lows on my tops... so a sweet spot between still having lows and upper clarity isnt necessary... i just need upper clarity... no lows...

but lacking low-mids... that could pose a real problem for gigs...

wouldnt a good sub take care of low mids... or is a sub doesnt cover that frequency range...

what frequency range do you mean by low mids... below 50hz isnt common in ANY full range speakers...  and pretty much all DO cover in the 50s... 

not sure if subs ever get above the 50hz mark... which would be redundant but could also compensate if the tops are weak in that area (aka the specs are lieing when it says tops can handle 50-60Hz without indicating that they actually can but not as great as the upper ranges... specs usually just say "frequency responce: 50Hz - whatever the top number is Hz")


once again though.. main issue is loudness... of pair of RCF 310 WITH a sub...

rcf 310" are unusually small compared to other 10" speakers... so this also begs the question

how would two DXR10 with a sub compare (in terms of loudness)

one might work while the other might not necessarily...
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on March 08, 2018, 01:23:56 AM
once again though.. main issue is loudness... of pair of RCF 310 WITH a sub...

rcf 310" are unusually small compared to other 10" speakers... so this also begs the question

how would two DXR10 with a sub compare (in terms of loudness)

I think the DXRs would offer more output and sound better, but I have to admit to not having any direct experience with the RCF310 so this is more of an educated guess.

If you are looking for the most compact system you can assemble then 10" boxes with perhaps a 15" sub would be great, but if you want the ability to do some small events without a sub then a 12" box is a better choice for the added low frequency output when not crossover over above a sub. Typical pro audio sub crossover frequencies are 80-100hz, you generally don't drive the main speakers as low as they can go as this will compromise mid clarity.
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Geert Friedhof on March 08, 2018, 06:08:32 AM
Sub-bass 20 to 60 Hz
Bass 60 to 250 Hz
Low mid 250 to 500 Hz
Mid 500 Hz to 2 kHz
Upper mid 2 to 4 kHz
Presence 4 to 6 kHz
Brilliance    6 to 20 kHz
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Joseph Amodeo on March 08, 2018, 11:32:11 PM
Ive got a real zinger for yas...

would it be possible... or a big deal to pair an RCF 312 mkii with an mkiii

i have found an EXTREMELY good price on each of them seperately...

and they are 12" so its pretty much a no brainer based on the the endless discussions had going around this issue so far...

smooth and undistorted highs and mids at high volumes,
decent bass without a sub, even better with a sub...
RCF build quality...


would the mismatch of mk2 and mk3 be a problem??? the sooner the answer the better

Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 08, 2018, 11:41:47 PM
@ Joseph-

Just a couple of thoughts, and regarding pricing versus value my observations are USA-centric.  Things are probably different elsewhere in the world.

First - within a given price bracket most competing products are more similar than they are different.  Some brands or manufacturers may spend the budget money differently from others but they're all working with similar total expenditures to bring a product to market.  From cheap to Very Nice, it's the same.

Second - small, incremental moves in greater power or 10 inch or 12 inch cones when using subs... bah, humbug.  The 3dB increase in sound pressure that is usually noticed by perceptive listeners is *double* the power.  The difference between 800 Watts and 1000 Watts might be a big bunch of money for a result that will be inaudible.  If a sub is crossed at 100Hz to make things play nicer with the 10 inch top, fine.  The Sound Nanny will not slap your hand unless you blow up something.  Trust me. 8)

Third - buying in on the cheap with the best of intentions to improve or replace the low end gear results in having a whole lot of low end gear and recovering almost no value when it comes time to buy the gear you should have started with.

This leads us to a couple of these gems of wisdom that are from the prehistoric days of the Live Audio Board:

1.  The wrong piece of gear at the right price is still the wrong piece of gear.

2.  Buy once, cry once.

Ultimately what level of work do you want to be doing 2 years from now?  That's probably where you should be aiming your "ideal" purchasing targets and then working your way down-scale as necessary, but understanding what you're giving up for spending less.

I strongly suggest that you stay with 1 manufacturer and within the same model line for sub and tops.  Doing so means all of the physics and electronic thinking has been done for you, and reasonably good results should be readily achievable.
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Joseph Amodeo on March 09, 2018, 12:24:39 AM
@ Joseph-

Just a couple of thoughts, and regarding pricing versus value my observations are USA-centric.  Things are probably different elsewhere in the world.

First - within a given price bracket most competing products are more similar than they are different.  Some brands or manufacturers may spend the budget money differently from others but they're all working with similar total expenditures to bring a product to market.  From cheap to Very Nice, it's the same.

Second - small, incremental moves in greater power or 10 inch or 12 inch cones when using subs... bah, humbug.  The 3dB increase in sound pressure that is usually noticed by perceptive listeners is *double* the power.  The difference between 800 Watts and 1000 Watts might be a big bunch of money for a result that will be inaudible.  If a sub is crossed at 100Hz to make things play nicer with the 10 inch top, fine.  The Sound Nanny will not slap your hand unless you blow up something.  Trust me. 8)

Third - buying in on the cheap with the best of intentions to improve or replace the low end gear results in having a whole lot of low end gear and recovering almost no value when it comes time to buy the gear you should have started with.

This leads us to a couple of these gems of wisdom that are from the prehistoric days of the Live Audio Board:

1.  The wrong piece of gear at the right price is still the wrong piece of gear.

2.  Buy once, cry once.

Ultimately what level of work do you want to be doing 2 years from now?  That's probably where you should be aiming your "ideal" purchasing targets and then working your way down-scale as necessary, but understanding what you're giving up for spending less.

I strongly suggest that you stay with 1 manufacturer and within the same model line for sub and tops.  Doing so means all of the physics and electronic thinking has been done for you, and reasonably good results should be readily achievable.


wait a minute?.... things can blow up??? thats the whole reason im avoiding passive setups... jeez
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on March 10, 2018, 12:30:59 PM

wait a minute?.... things can blow up??? thats the whole reason im avoiding passive setups... jeez

Modern active speakers are difficult to blow up.
I did some testing on one where if you fed it high-power sine tones, it'd do it for a couple of seconds and then drop the power level right down - thermal protection for the driver and amplifier. There was also peak limiting and excursion limiting. Pretty difficult to kill, even if you really try.
Not impossible, though.

Chris
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Joseph Amodeo on March 11, 2018, 10:53:29 PM
@ Joseph-

Just a couple of thoughts, and regarding pricing versus value my observations are USA-centric.  Things are probably different elsewhere in the world.

First - within a given price bracket most competing products are more similar than they are different.  Some brands or manufacturers may spend the budget money differently from others but they're all working with similar total expenditures to bring a product to market.  From cheap to Very Nice, it's the same.

Second - small, incremental moves in greater power or 10 inch or 12 inch cones when using subs... bah, humbug.  The 3dB increase in sound pressure that is usually noticed by perceptive listeners is *double* the power.  The difference between 800 Watts and 1000 Watts might be a big bunch of money for a result that will be inaudible.  If a sub is crossed at 100Hz to make things play nicer with the 10 inch top, fine.  The Sound Nanny will not slap your hand unless you blow up something.  Trust me. 8)

Third - buying in on the cheap with the best of intentions to improve or replace the low end gear results in having a whole lot of low end gear and recovering almost no value when it comes time to buy the gear you should have started with.

This leads us to a couple of these gems of wisdom that are from the prehistoric days of the Live Audio Board:

1.  The wrong piece of gear at the right price is still the wrong piece of gear.

2.  Buy once, cry once.

Ultimately what level of work do you want to be doing 2 years from now?  That's probably where you should be aiming your "ideal" purchasing targets and then working your way down-scale as necessary, but understanding what you're giving up for spending less.

I strongly suggest that you stay with 1 manufacturer and within the same model line for sub and tops.  Doing so means all of the physics and electronic thinking has been done for you, and reasonably good results should be readily achievable.

Part of what im thinking is that RCF 3 series... isnt "the wrong gear" its completely useful for anything i would be doing and can definitely say its at least a step above TRULY crappy stuff like behringer eurolives or grabbing some altos or mackie thumps for 100-200 bucks each...


All this talk about blowing up active speakers... while yes unlikely... was related to the idea that crossing over a sub to handle up to 100hz... was somehow incorrect?? and would be necessary when paired with 10" tops??? but somehow the extra 2 inches and 200 watts would be giving you an inaudible increase in highs and mids volume...

I think im getting it.... when using a sub.... 10 inch tops... will do OK with highs and mid... VOLUME WISE... and great CLARITY WISE... but 12 inch highs are TECHNICALLY considered better VOLUME WISE... but not CLARITY WISE...

HOWEVER...its a basically inaudible increase

AGAIN HOWEVER... this doesnt account for the nasally weak low-mids on 10" tops which means the sub will have to cover more frequency...  which is apparently not a big deal??? but not the best??? im not really clear on how to properly setup a sub and crossover stuff...
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on March 12, 2018, 12:47:53 AM
but somehow the extra 2 inches and 200 watts would be giving you an inaudible increase in highs and mids volume...

HOWEVER...its a basically inaudible increase
You keep saying "inaudible" and i don't understand why. I guarantee you the differences here are not inaudible, if they were nobody would have made any of the suggestions they did and no manufacturer would make more than 1 model of speaker.

im not really clear on how to properly setup a sub and crossover stuff...
That is why you let the engineers that design speaker systems do it for you and buy the matching sub from the same manufacturer.
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 18, 2018, 05:50:30 PM
Part of what im thinking is that RCF 3 series... isnt "the wrong gear" its completely useful for anything i would be doing and can definitely say its at least a step above TRULY crappy stuff like behringer eurolives or grabbing some altos or mackie thumps for 100-200 bucks each...


All this talk about blowing up active speakers... while yes unlikely... was related to the idea that crossing over a sub to handle up to 100hz... was somehow incorrect?? and would be necessary when paired with 10" tops??? but somehow the extra 2 inches and 200 watts would be giving you an inaudible increase in highs and mids volume...

I think im getting it.... when using a sub.... 10 inch tops... will do OK with highs and mid... VOLUME WISE... and great CLARITY WISE... but 12 inch highs are TECHNICALLY considered better VOLUME WISE... but not CLARITY WISE...

HOWEVER...its a basically inaudible increase

AGAIN HOWEVER... this doesnt account for the nasally weak low-mids on 10" tops which means the sub will have to cover more frequency...  which is apparently not a big deal??? but not the best??? im not really clear on how to properly setup a sub and crossover stuff...

Almost anything RCF will be better than the Mackie Thumps, on that we can certainly agree. :)

I think you're trying to characterize or label some kind of difference between various sizes of speakers, or create attributes to allow you to make a rational decisions.

Here's my observation - they sound different because they *are* different.  Within a model line the manufacturers tend to "voice" the models in a fairly uniform way but there are inevitable changes.  Which is best?  That's sooooo subjective; what pleases me might leave you unimpressed or be unsuitable for your needs.

Another observation:  within the same model line and with subs I don't think it matters much between 10" and 12". Buying 15" gives you some flexibility of operation without or with subs but you pay more money and have a size/weight increase, too.

Your comment about "nasally weak low mids" makes me wonder what program material you are using.  What most people think of as "warm" tends to be in the 150-250Hz area.  "Warm" is well within the operating pass band of almost any 8" or 10" system, depending on how much output you need.  It's possible that there are other factor at play...

That brings me to my final point - almost any competent system can be user-voiced to sound a particular way, but some voicing choices may create an over all limit to system output (power compression, transducer thermal limiting, over-excursion limiting, amp clipping).  That means that while manufacturers try to make their systems abuse-resistant it IS possible to damage self-powered systems.
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: George Friedman-Jimenez on March 19, 2018, 11:23:32 PM
I have owned the RCF310 and it is very smiley-faced EQ - hyped in the bass and highs. OK standalone for a small gathering, but I won't use it for FOH or even monitors unless I have no other choice. Nice and light though, and solidly built.
I also have owned and much prefer the DXR10>EV ETX10P>JBL PRX612M in that order. None of them match the clarity of my trusty EV QRX112/75s but those are much heavier and the DXR10s come the closest in sound quality.
From what you are saying, I would recommend the DXR10s with subs. Much better sound quality at working SPLs than the RCF 310, not that much heavier, bigger or more expensive.
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Steve M Smith on March 20, 2018, 08:10:04 AM
i have found an EXTREMELY good price on each of them seperately...

I am amazed at the number of people on eBay selling just one speaker.  It seems more common than pairs.  Why?!!


Steve.
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 20, 2018, 01:57:51 PM
I am amazed at the number of people on eBay selling just one speaker.  It seems more common than pairs.  Why?!!


Steve.


The seller ordered 1 unit for demonstration and didn't like it or these are dealers posing as individual sellers to avoid the MAP Police.
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Steve M Smith on March 21, 2018, 05:29:34 AM

The seller ordered 1 unit for demonstration and didn't like it or these are dealers posing as individual sellers to avoid the MAP Police.

I can understand them being sold individually priced when new, but I see a lot of secondhand single units being sold.


Steve.
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 21, 2018, 12:06:32 PM
I can understand them being sold individually priced when new, but I see a lot of secondhand single units being sold.


Steve.

You'd have to ask the sellers then... but who in audio buys only *1* of any speaker?  Certainly not DJs or bands.  Perhaps purchased by individual musicians to supplement their rig or use as a vocal monitor?  That's about the only music-related reason I can think of... and I'm stumped as to why a lot of people would buy only 1 and then sell it unless it genuinely sucked.
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Steve Crump on March 21, 2018, 12:49:59 PM
You'd have to ask the sellers then... but who in audio buys only *1* of any speaker?  Certainly not DJs or bands.  Perhaps purchased by individual musicians to supplement their rig or use as a vocal monitor?  That's about the only music-related reason I can think of... and I'm stumped as to why a lot of people would buy only 1 and then sell it unless it genuinely sucked.

Okay. I am the odd ball here, well actually I am oddball everywhere. But, I have started buying one at a time to test before I commit to buying more. Recently I purchased one Community MX10 and one QSC E10 to compare, before making up "our" mind on which we would use for monitor duty at our venue. For what we are doing the E10 was preferred by the house guitarist, so we have more on the way. As far as the MX10, I will try it out with my next acoustic open mic, might just put it on a shelf, don't know...I hate selling stuff because I hate dealing with low ballers.
 
I started doing this because several times I have read all these great reviews and then purchased multiples or sets and have been disappointed. (Can't always find a place to listen before purchase). I figured a lot of people give reviews based on price as much as sound quality. Meaning if they can get by with a low cost inferior speaker, then it makes it a "great speaker". So this has made me cautious.
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Steve M Smith on March 22, 2018, 04:08:36 AM
You'd have to ask the sellers then... but who in audio buys only *1* of any speaker?

The only explanation I can think of is people are buying them to play music from their phones at a party then selling them after one use.


Steve.
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Don T. Williams on March 22, 2018, 03:38:38 PM
Okay. I am the odd ball here, well actually I am oddball everywhere. But, I have started buying one at a time to test before I commit to buying more. Recently I purchased one Community MX10 and one QSC E10 to compare, before making up "our" mind on which we would use for monitor duty at our venue. For what we are doing the E10 was preferred by the house guitarist, so we have more on the way. As far as the MX10, I will try it out with my next acoustic open mic, might just put it on a shelf, don't know...I hate selling stuff because I hate dealing with low ballers.
 
I started doing this because several times I have read all these great reviews and then purchased multiples or sets and have been disappointed. (Can't always find a place to listen before purchase). I figured a lot of people give reviews based on price as much as sound quality. Meaning if they can get by with a low cost inferior speaker, then it makes it a "great speaker". So this has made me cautious.

Steve, I understand your reason, and it makes sense.  As a dealer, I usually purchase in pairs.  Usually, when the customer buys just one unit, they say they will be back in a month or two to get the mate to it.  Most of the time they never come back for the mate!  Maybe that's why there are so many singles on EBay!
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 23, 2018, 12:47:35 PM
Okay. I am the odd ball here, well actually I am oddball everywhere. But, I have started buying one at a time to test before I commit to buying more. Recently I purchased one Community MX10 and one QSC E10 to compare, before making up "our" mind on which we would use for monitor duty at our venue. For what we are doing the E10 was preferred by the house guitarist, so we have more on the way. As far as the MX10, I will try it out with my next acoustic open mic, might just put it on a shelf, don't know...I hate selling stuff because I hate dealing with low ballers.
 
I started doing this because several times I have read all these great reviews and then purchased multiples or sets and have been disappointed. (Can't always find a place to listen before purchase). I figured a lot of people give reviews based on price as much as sound quality. Meaning if they can get by with a low cost inferior speaker, then it makes it a "great speaker". So this has made me cautious.

Yeah, I've advocated here on the forums for personal auditions but typically suggest ordering from vendors with an accommodating return policy.  I've got a few oddball pieces in our shop that were either purchased for 1 time use or for client evaluations that went a different direction.  Might be time for the Great Plains Audio Garage Sale one of these days.  Oh, wait, I can see it turning into a big swap meet, everyone going home with the same amount of *different stuff* than they came with...  This might not be so good ;)
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 23, 2018, 12:50:24 PM
Steve, I understand your reason, and it makes sense.  As a dealer, I usually purchase in pairs.  Usually, when the customer buys just one unit, they say they will be back in a month or two to get the mate to it.  Most of the time they never come back for the mate!  Maybe that's why there are so many singles on EBay!

That happens on a larger scale, too.  Think of building a vertical array on the "box a month plan."  Long about month 6 or 7 something bad happens that affects income or redirects cash flow to other areas.  The "dash array" never grows further and becomes a limited use, high cost system of dubious acoustic benefit.
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Steve Crump on March 25, 2018, 03:09:32 PM
Yeah, I've advocated here on the forums for personal auditions but typically suggest ordering from vendors with an accommodating return policy.  I've got a few oddball pieces in our shop that were either purchased for 1 time use or for client evaluations that went a different direction.  Might be time for the Great Plains Audio Garage Sale one of these days.  Oh, wait, I can see it turning into a big swap meet, everyone going home with the same amount of *different stuff* than they came with...  This might not be so good ;)


Swap meet sounds good. I can always use a match for the MX10 or different "stuff" to put on my shelves.

Makes me think of the comedian talking about a $15,000.00 shed for $1,500.00 worth of "stuff", at least something like that...Of course, with sound gear it is the other way around. A $3,000.00 trailer to house $30,000.00 in gear. At least for a weekender like me. I keep telling my wife if she would let me spend a $100,000.00 on a system that I will stop buying for a while.
She not buying it, since in my sound world all the money that is going out far exceeds the money coming in..
Title: Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
Post by: Steve Crump on March 25, 2018, 03:20:30 PM
Steve, I understand your reason, and it makes sense.  As a dealer, I usually purchase in pairs.  Usually, when the customer buys just one unit, they say they will be back in a month or two to get the mate to it.  Most of the time they never come back for the mate!  Maybe that's why there are so many singles on EBay!

Don,

I can see for a dealer such as yourself how this can be a PITA.