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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board => Topic started by: Gary Miller on May 15, 2014, 04:54:36 PM
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I'm looking for a pair(maybe up to 4) powered boxes that I can put on sticks that I will mainly be using for pyro musicals. I was looking at the QSC KLA12 and I really like the a/c loop through feature as I will be deploying the speakers out in fields and at far distances. If I do start adding boxes either now or down the road I could see a/c becoming an issue. I'm not sure if the "line array" KLA series is exactly what I need and think I may better served by a trap type box. Does anyone know of trap type powered speakers that would mount on sticks that feature an a/c loop through function?
Thanks,
G
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Does anyone know of trap type powered speakers that would mount on sticks that feature an a/c loop through function?
Welcome to the forums. What's your budget? A quick internet search turned up Fulcrum Acoustic's FA12ac and EV's ZXA5. I think some of the RCF self-powered boxes have Powercon in/thru.
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I don't think you will find many boxes that will fit more than 1 on a speaker pole, besides these fixed angle arrays like VRX and KLA.
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I would think that if you want to daisy chain the a/c from speaker to speaker over long distances and you want to drive them to loud volumes you will run out of amperage pretty quickly. I had a similar type application and we rented several little Honda 2000 inverter generators and put one at each speaker and it worked great. Each Honda puts out about 13 amps I think and then all we had to worry about was running signal cable.
What's a 'pyro musical' that takes place in a field?
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Welcome to the forums.
Thanks Kirby!What's your budget?
I'm not too concerned about budget. I'm not looking to spend $10000 or anything but I will pay for the right gearI don't think you will find many boxes that will fit more than 1 on a speaker pole, besides these fixed angle arrays like VRX and KLA.
I agree. I'm not necessarily looking to stack them on one pole but rather put them on several different poles positioned at different "stations" across the audience front. It seems that the ability to chain the a/c from cabinet to cabinet would be a super convenient feature for a configuration such as thisI would think that if you want to daisy chain the a/c from speaker to speaker over long distances and you want to drive them to loud volumes you will run out of amperage pretty quickly.
I'm concerned about this as well. I think I will employ your generator solution if I get to where I need more than four cabinets across the front
What's a 'pyro musical' that takes place in a field?
I will primarily being using them at fireworks festivals that take place out in fields or outdoor clearing areas. The festivals usually can have up to 10 different shows that run about 7 to 10 minutes each and are choreographed or scripted to music. We have done shows in outdoor amphitheaters and fair grounds with grand stands as well. Check out one of our latest shows here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSHJhhj5s8M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSHJhhj5s8M) We did 4 different shows on this particular night
Thanks for input guys! Much appreciated. Now I have some direction on some different cabinets to look at
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....I will be deploying the speakers out in fields and at far distances. If I do start adding boxes either now or down the road I could see a/c becoming an issue..........
What distances are you talking about?
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What distances are you talking about?
If you go with a daisy chained speaker-to-speaker AC approach, be sure the cables will be heavy enough to minimize the voltage drop over the distances you're contemplating (http://www.nooutage.com/vdrop.htm). Some SOOW 12/3 may be a tight squeeze inside Powercon connectors, and you may want SOOW since it's outdoors.
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What distances are you talking about?
It varies by venue. Worst case scenario= 300 feet across the front
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If you go with a daisy chained speaker-to-speaker AC approach, be sure the cables will be heavy enough to minimize the voltage drop over the distances you're contemplating (http://www.nooutage.com/vdrop.htm). Some SOOW 12/3 may be a tight squeeze inside Powercon connectors, and you may want SOOW since it's outdoors.
Definitely watch out for that. The diameter of the PowerCon strain relief chuck is 15 mm if I recall correctly, and many SOOW cables are bigger than that. Even some SJ gets close.
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I would put more concern on the actual performance of the speakers. 12g extension cords are pretty easy to come by (or roll your own), and looping thru the cabinets is really only convenient if you are using them more in close proximity. Of course, if you can find something that meets your performance needs AND has the loop-thru feature, so much the better.
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It varies by venue. Worst case scenario= 300 feet across the front
I don't think daisy-chaining power at the speaker is the right approach. I would recommend building a string of these: http://www.oawindsor.com/power_con.htm then running a normal power cord from the stringer box up to the speaker.
300' is pretty far to run - it would be better to put a generator at each end so the furthest speaker is 150'.
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I would think that if you want to daisy chain the a/c from speaker to speaker over long distances and you want to drive them to loud volumes you will run out of amperage pretty quickly. I had a similar type application and we rented several little Honda 2000 inverter generators and put one at each speaker and it worked great. Each Honda puts out about 13 amps I think and then all we had to worry about was running signal cable.
What's a 'pyro musical' that takes place in a field?
Most powered speakers draw a max of 5A or so, and that's running full out. 2 powered speakers per EU2000 will be no problem, and likely as many as 4 would be fine if you're not running the speakers into clipping.
It's a good idea to use 1:1 isolation transformers on the signal lines between power sources. I would suggest something like this http://whirlwindusa.com/catalog/black-boxes-effects-and-dis/specialty-interface-solutions/iso-1.
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300' is pretty far to run - it would be better to put a generator at each end so the furthest speaker is 150'.
If you're using 2 generators, why not put them 75' from each end. Then your max cable run is 75'
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If you're using 2 generators, why not put them 75' from each end. Then your max cable run is 75'
If that's an option for venue logistics, absolutely.
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Skip the loop through, just build extension cords with a duplex box on the end. It'll work a lot better, be more flexible, and you can more easily address the voltage drop issue by using higher gauge cable. Make a 50' cable (or whatever length makes you happy) using 12ga soow - or 10ga if you want to protect against voltage drop. Put a duplex box on the end of it and then plug the speaker into one outlet and the next cord into the other.
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Skip the loop through, just build extension cords with a duplex box on the end. It'll work a lot better, be more flexible, and you can more easily address the voltage drop issue by using higher gauge cable. Make a 50' cable (or whatever length makes you happy) using 12ga soow - or 10ga if you want to protect against voltage drop. Put a duplex box on the end of it and then plug the speaker into one outlet and the next cord into the other.
This makes the most sense to me.
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Turbosound has the iQ series with the PowerCon loop, if that's worth looking...
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The amps used in Danley's self powered stuff have loop throughs. You could run a few in the chain, and even more if you switch to 240V
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I'm looking for a pair(maybe up to 4) powered boxes that I can put on sticks that I will mainly be using for pyro musicals. I was looking at the QSC KLA12 and I really like the a/c loop through feature as I will be deploying the speakers out in fields and at far distances. If I do start adding boxes either now or down the road I could see a/c becoming an issue. I'm not sure if the "line array" KLA series is exactly what I need and think I may better served by a trap type box. Does anyone know of trap type powered speakers that would mount on sticks that feature an a/c loop through function?
Thanks,
G
Typically, the AC loop-through is used for something like a pair of wedges.
That being said, amps and speakers draw surprisingly little current from the grid. The duty cycle of musical content is ridiculously forgiving compared to that of AC sine wave power.
A good rule of thumb is to take the continuous power rating of the amp in question and divide that number by four. This will give a rough approximation of what the amp will draw from the grid at full tilt. In other words, a 1000w amp will only draw a little over 2 amps in the US and a little over 1 in Europe at full power!
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It might be a bit bass ackward to put the power scheme too high up on the selection criteria list. Spend your energy determining which box best meets your need for power, sound quality, scalability, deployment method, and price. Buy the speaker that best balances those requirements and build whatever cables fit it
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Skip the loop through, just build extension cords with a duplex box on the end. It'll work a lot better, be more flexible, and you can more easily address the voltage drop issue by using higher gauge cable. Make a 50' cable (or whatever length makes you happy) using 12ga soow - or 10ga if you want to protect against voltage drop. Put a duplex box on the end of it and then plug the speaker into one outlet and the next cord into the other.
I like this idea too. Kinda like a stage stringer. Definitely brings flexibility into the setup!Typically, the AC loop-through is used for something like a pair of wedges.
That being said, amps and speakers draw surprisingly little current from the grid. The duty cycle of musical content is ridiculously forgiving compared to that of AC sine wave power.
A good rule of thumb is to take the continuous power rating of the amp in question and divide that number by four. This will give a rough approximation of what the amp will draw from the grid at full tilt. In other words, a 1000w amp will only draw a little over 2 amps in the US and a little over 1 in Europe at full power!
So are you saying that I should be fine using the powercon loop through on the cabinets to string 4 boxes together across a 300' front with little or no voltage drop issues that the others are mentioning?It might be a bit bass ackward to put the power scheme too high up on the selection criteria list. Spend your energy determining which box best meets your need for power, sound quality, scalability, deployment method, and price. Buy the speaker that best balances those requirements and build whatever cables fit it
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
James, that is all very good advice but I'm fairly confident that any of these boxes that employs near a 1000w amplifier in a 4 box line in this configuration should meet all those needs as I will mostly be using the system for playback, DJ type stuff, and a single mic for announcements and show credits. The only other food for thought would in the deployment criteria. It would help to have a speaker system that can hold up to weather. Obviously, we can't shoot in an outright down pour but we have done shows in a light drizzle. Also, a lot of times when that sun sets in many of these locations it gets very wet due to condensation...and there is the fall out issues albeit not a huge concern
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I'd keep the power split outside the box. Attach a quad box to the stand and daisy chain from there. In the event that you have to swap a speaker, this would mean that there's no need to drop power on the next speakers down the line.
A 300' run at 120v is getting pretty long. While the average draw of speaker power is pretty low, it will pull much higher peaks as needed. This won't blow a breaker, but the voltage sag that you get on a long run gets amplified. The result is the amp being starved for power which can cause the sound to become thin or distorted, depending on the speaker. Amps with bigger reserve caps handle this situation better than those without.
A good test is to attach a lamp at the far end of the run and turn it up. If the light dim with the beat of the music, you've got enough of a problem that you should be running heavier cable.
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A good test is to attach a lamp at the far end of the run and turn it up. If the light dim with the beat of the music, you've got enough of a problem that you should be running heavier cable.
Good test plan. Fortunately, that's also something you can do at home/at the office/at the warehouse *before* going to the gig. So, if a heavier cable (or a different plan altogether) is warranted, you can work that out before the gig!
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Whilst I also agree that the place for an AC split is outside the cabinet, i'll also say that the RCF TT22-A's have a powercon in and out, as do the TT25-A's. Heard some very good reports about them, and am currently looking at buying a pair myself. Yet to listen though.
If you were here in the UK I'd suggest you make up AC leads for your speakers using 16A T-line connectors like these; http://www.directcablesystems.com/site/product_details.php?section_id=8&sub_section_id=516&category_id=55
Though I've got to say I'm not very familiar with mains distribution over your side of the Atlantic so I'm not sure if they'd be of any use at all.
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Whilst I also agree that the place for an AC split is outside the cabinet, i'll also say that the RCF TT22-A's have a powercon in and out, as do the TT25-A's. Heard some very good reports about them, and am currently looking at buying a pair myself. Yet to listen though.
If you were here in the UK I'd suggest you make up AC leads for your speakers using 16A T-line connectors like these; http://www.directcablesystems.com/site/product_details.php?section_id=8&sub_section_id=516&category_id=55
Though I've got to say I'm not very familiar with mains distribution over your side of the Atlantic so I'm not sure if they'd be of any use at all.
That exists in US distribution as well: http://www.signalandpower.com/USA-3-Prong-Power-Cords/YL-915-USA/
They tend to be a little fragile and may get loose after a few uses, but they do work.
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Skip the loop through, just build extension cords with a duplex box on the end. It'll work a lot better, be more flexible, and you can more easily address the voltage drop issue by using higher gauge cable. Make a 50' cable (or whatever length makes you happy) using 12ga soow - or 10ga if you want to protect against voltage drop. Put a duplex box on the end of it and then plug the speaker into one outlet and the next cord into the other.
Yep. Alternatively, build powercon-->U-ground female cables. That will allow you to loop-through power, but not eat up valuable copper to dedicated powercon extensions.
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Most of the RCF NX, 4PRO, TT series and dB Technologies D series boxes have power-con loop through...take a look at the RCF NXL24A, and also the D12 and D15 boxes from db Technologies...great performers and coupled with subs, awesome...we have done some fairly good size concert in the park events with 2 of the D12 per side and subs.
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Most of the RCF NX, 4PRO, TT series and dB Technologies D series boxes have power-con loop through...take a look at the RCF NXL24A, and also the D12 and D15 boxes from db Technologies...great performers and coupled with subs, awesome...we have done some fairly good size concert in the park events with 2 of the D12 per side and subs.
Are the D12 boxes able to be mounted on stands? I can't see anywhere in the specs or brochures where it has this information.
G
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Are the D12 boxes able to be mounted on stands? I can't see anywhere in the specs or brochures where it has this information.
G
yes, pole socket on bottom
Selfpowered 2-way loudspeaker system, 1x12" RCF Neo
Woofer with 3" voice coil, 1x1,4" neodymium HF-driver with
2,5" voice coil, rotatable aluminium horn 60°x40, integrated
digipro™ Class-D power amp with 500+250W/RMS and 1000W
PFC switch mode supply, integrated audio controller for active
splitting (1,3KHz), phase- and time alignment , 2 EQ presets
(FOH/Monitor) multipurpose housing with 3 integrated
handles, 6 x aeroquip-rails, 4 x M10, 4 x quick release, pole
mount socket, 45° angle for monitor applications, PowerCon
mains input with link-out, frequency response (+-10dB) 55Hz-
20KHz, SPL max. 131dB, dimensions: 14.5" x 15.5" x 24.25",
weight: 48 lbs
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yes, pole socket on bottom
Are these cabinets able to be wired to a standard 110 volt Edison plug?
G
Selfpowered 2-way loudspeaker system, 1x12" RCF Neo
Woofer with 3" voice coil, 1x1,4" neodymium HF-driver with
2,5" voice coil, rotatable aluminium horn 60°x40, integrated
digipro™ Class-D power amp with 500+250W/RMS and 1000W
PFC switch mode supply, integrated audio controller for active
splitting (1,3KHz), phase- and time alignment , 2 EQ presets
(FOH/Monitor) multipurpose housing with 3 integrated
handles, 6 x aeroquip-rails, 4 x M10, 4 x quick release, pole
mount socket, 45° angle for monitor applications, PowerCon
mains input with link-out, frequency response (+-10dB) 55Hz-
20KHz, SPL max. 131dB, dimensions: 14.5" x 15.5" x 24.25",
weight: 48 lbs