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Title: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Wayne Garton on October 28, 2017, 11:46:49 pm
We have a medium size rectangular auditorium with a very high ceiling (seats about 350). Speakers are passive line arrays; 2 X Beta TLA's and 1 X Beta TLB's on each side. Under stage we have a home-made subwoofers which need replacing. They also need to fly since the kick and bass is being absorbed by about the first 10 rows. Crossovers are 2 X Driverack 260's (one on left and right)
Anyone know of some suitable overhead subs we could buy (either powered or passive)? Worship is modern, Hillsong/Bethel/Contemporary Music.
Title: Posting Rules
Post by: Mac Kerr on October 28, 2017, 11:47:36 pm
We have a medium size rectangular auditorium

Please go to your profile and change the "Name" field to your real first and last name as required by the posting rules displayed in the header at the top of the section, and in the Site Rules and Suggestions (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/board,36.0.html) in the Forum Announcements section, and on the registration page when you registered.

Mac
Title: Re: Posting Rules
Post by: Wayne Garton on October 29, 2017, 01:22:12 am

Sorry - fixed now
Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on October 29, 2017, 03:37:04 am
We have a medium size rectangular auditorium with a very high ceiling (seats about 350). Speakers are passive line arrays; 2 X Beta TLA's and 1 X Beta TLB's on each side. Under stage we have a home-made subwoofers which need replacing. They also need to fly since the kick and bass is being absorbed by about the first 10 rows. Crossovers are 2 X Driverack 260's (one on left and right)
Anyone know of some suitable overhead subs we could buy (either powered or passive)? Worship is modern, Hillsong/Bethel/Contemporary Music.

Contact an integrator in your area or a consultant and get some assistance from them, you will be better suited.

I don't think that better subs are going to solve your problems, you would likely be better off spending money on a powered system from a reputable company such as Yamaha, QSC, EV, JBL, RCF, Turbosound or any of the others mentioned all the time in these forums. Also go and read the main site (http://www.prosoundweb.com/church) of these forums, there is a lot of good information there to help you out.

You will find once you have purchased decent subs those tops are going to show their true colors(hint: it's not good) and you will be looking at replacing them in a year or two so rather spend the time now to do your research correctly.

Now for the technical questions, what is the dimensions of your room and what is your budget?

Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on October 29, 2017, 08:03:25 am
We have a medium size rectangular auditorium with a very high ceiling (seats about 350). Speakers are passive line arrays; 2 X Beta TLA's and 1 X Beta TLB's on each side. Under stage we have a home-made subwoofers which need replacing. They also need to fly since the kick and bass is being absorbed by about the first 10 rows. Crossovers are 2 X Driverack 260's (one on left and right)
Anyone know of some suitable overhead subs we could buy (either powered or passive)? Worship is modern, Hillsong/Bethel/Contemporary Music.
Wayne, welcome to the forum.  There are lots of install-grade subs that have flying hardware and are probably adequate for your room (EAW, JBL, Danley, etc.). Flying them is not usually a good DIY thing, so if you want them flown, a consultant/installer would help you navigate the install catalogs and get them flown safely.

That said, I'm not sure your diagnosis of the bass being absorbed by the first 10 rows is accurate. The vast majority of auditoriums have subs on the ground and they work fine, so it is probably more an issue of where and how they are under your stage than it being a categorical problem. A consultant could help you here, too.
Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 29, 2017, 10:23:59 am


That said, I'm not sure your diagnosis of the bass being absorbed by the first 10 rows is accurate. The vast majority of auditoriums have subs on the ground and they work fine, so it is probably more an issue of where and how they are under your stage than it being a categorical problem. A consultant could help you here, too.

It is not a matter of the sound "being absorbed" by the first rows.

It is simply inverse square law.  The people up front are closer, so it is louder to them.

If the levels are set for those people, then it will be quieter in the rear.  Basic physics.

When you fly the subs, the distance to the rear seats doesn't change much (not enough to be considered) so the inverse square looses don't change.

HOWEVER, the distance to the front rows changes quite a bit,  so inverse square reduces the levels to those seats.

So the ratio of front to rear seats is less when flown than when on the ground.

It is the ratio that is important.  The greater the ratio of distance, the greater the difference in level.  Not so much the actual distance.

The SPL difference between 1 and 2 feet is the same as between 100 and 200 feet.
Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Mike Caldwell on October 29, 2017, 11:56:32 am
In your post you said your have 1 Beta TLB per side double 18 per side and if I read it correctly you also have two homemade subs as well.
I have never heard of "Beta" speakers and I' not going to speculate
on how they work and sound same goes for the quality of the homemade sub mentioned (not that is anything wrong with a properly designed and built homemade sub!) A big problem could be that the two types of subs are just not happy working together.

What is the purpose of the two DBX260 DSP's as in one for left and one for right?

Are all the subs being driven from the main mix or are some or all operated as aux fed subs?

Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Scott Holtzman on October 29, 2017, 04:45:00 pm
In your post you said your have 1 Beta TLB per side double 18 per side and if I read it correctly you also have two homemade subs as well.
I have never heard of "Beta" speakers and I' not going to speculate
on how they work and sound same goes for the quality of the homemade sub mentioned (not that is anything wrong with a properly designed and built homemade sub!) A big problem could be that the two types of subs are just not happy working together.

What is the purpose of the two DBX260 DSP's as in one for left and one for right?

Are all the subs being driven from the main mix or are some or all operated as aux fed subs?

I never heard of omnisistem either  https://omnisistem.com/products/beta-3-tlb-218-1600w-2-x-18-passive-subwoofer

Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Don T. Williams on October 29, 2017, 04:51:18 pm
There is a company out of China called Beta3 that has "TL" series "line array" loudspeakers listed on their web site. Are these what you have?  If this is your system it is a vertical array.  A line array really need some length (many, many more loudspeakers than you have) and a minimal curve to act as a line array.  The forum has a lot of information on line arrays and all the incorrectly marketed loudspeakers called "line arrays" that are really vertical arrays.
Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Wayne Garton on October 29, 2017, 08:54:13 pm
Yes. You are correct. They are Chinese made (as are many other items we buy in NZ from toasters to iPhones to cars) This is not the USA. We do what we can.
TLA http://www.beta3pro.com/productshow.php?cid=46&id=283 (X2 on each side)
TLB http://www.beta3pro.com/productshow.php?cid=46&id=49 (X1 on each side)
vertically hung like the example shown on this page
http://www.beta3pro.com/caseshow.php?cid=41&id=344

However, since we have recently changed the orientation of the auditorium setup from landscape to portrait, (turned the seating around and constructed a stage) and have just bought the speakers pre-owned, we won't be buying new ones any time soon.
We have a Soundcraft Expression SI 3 mixer and the output of this is fed to the 2 Driverack 260's which are used as X-overs for the speakers. Each Driverack has 6 outputs mono or 3 stereo pairs. These then feed the amplifiers for the speakers.
However the old subwoofers for kick and bottom end were not replaced. They are mounted directly under the vertical arrays and physically under the new stage. But it is not working. In order for a reasonable level of kick halfway down our (now longer) auditorium, it is excessively loud at the front.
I feel that some of you experienced sound guys might have some words of wisdom for us.
Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Wayne Garton on October 29, 2017, 08:57:18 pm
There is a company out of China called Beta3 that has "TL" series "line array" loudspeakers listed on their web site. Are these what you have?  If this is your system it is a vertical array.  A line array really need some length (many, many more loudspeakers than you have) and a minimal curve to act as a line array.  The forum has a lot of information on line arrays and all the incorrectly marketed loudspeakers called "line arrays" that are really vertical arrays.
Thanks. That'll be what they are. They are mounted up high one above the other in a special bracket that angles them down
Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Wayne Garton on October 29, 2017, 09:00:45 pm
It is not a matter of the sound "being absorbed" by the first rows.

It is simply inverse square law.  The people up front are closer, so it is louder to them.

If the levels are set for those people, then it will be quieter in the rear.  Basic physics.

When you fly the subs, the distance to the rear seats doesn't change much (not enough to be considered) so the inverse square looses don't change.

HOWEVER, the distance to the front rows changes quite a bit,  so inverse square reduces the levels to those seats.

So the ratio of front to rear seats is less when flown than when on the ground.

It is the ratio that is important.  The greater the ratio of distance, the greater the difference in level.  Not so much the actual distance.

The SPL difference between 1 and 2 feet is the same as between 100 and 200 feet.
OK, that makes sense
Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Scott Holtzman on October 29, 2017, 09:09:48 pm
Yes. You are correct. They are Chinese made (as are many other items we buy in NZ from toasters to iPhones to cars) This is not the USA. We do what we can.
TLA http://www.beta3pro.com/productshow.php?cid=46&id=283 (X2 on each side)
TLB http://www.beta3pro.com/productshow.php?cid=46&id=49 (X1 on each side)
vertically hung like the example shown on this page
http://www.beta3pro.com/caseshow.php?cid=41&id=344
While they are not mainstream or well-known like JBL, we have seen them used at a large "ColdPlay" outdoor concert in Auckland, NZ so they can't be incredibly bad.
However, since we have recently changed the orientation of the auditorium setup from landscape to portrait, (turned the seating around and constructed a stage) and have just bought the speakers pre-owned, we won't be buying new ones any time soon.
We have a Soundcraft Expression SI 3 mixer and the output of this is fed to the 2 Driverack 260's which are used as X-overs for the speakers. Each Driverack has 6 outputs mono or 3 stereo pairs. These then feed the amplifiers for the speakers.
However the old subwoofers for kick and bottom end were not replaced. They are mounted directly under the vertical arrays and physically under the new stage. But it is not working. In order for a reasonable level of kick halfway down our (now longer) auditorium, it is excessively loud at the front.
I feel that some of you experienced sound guys might have some words of wisdom for us.
(If I did it correctly, there should be a picture of the auditorium attached)

The problem is not that they are Chinese, it's that line array's have to be much longer than 2 elements to do anything.  You also don't have any processing for them other than crossovers.  Line array's from mainstream vendors have processing and prediction software to go with them so you can set them up properly.  To top it off you have a pair of 12" mid-sub's flown and phase issues in the unprocessed cross over region between the two line arrays and the one double 12. 

With the money you spent on these, if you had asked before you spent the money, you could have purchased some quality point source boxes and deployed them properly.

That room looks to have enough trim height to support a proper array (think 6-8ft) and that would allow you to properly deploy and align the system.  Some here would argue you could still do a better job with point source, I am not going to go down that road.

You didn't ask us about the tops so leaving that all aside you need some new subwoofers.  The flown 12's aren't doing sub duty and I assume they are crossed over to make up for the anemic low end response of the short line.  That's what you are going to have to live with. 

So what's your budget for the subs and what vendors can you source local?  For the type of music and size of the venue you need 4 average or 2 terrific double 18 cabinets.  The dollars are about the same.  With amplification figure 12k in the US.

Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Wayne Garton on October 29, 2017, 09:10:21 pm

>>What is the purpose of the two DBX260 DSP's as in one for left and one for right?

Are all the subs being driven from the main mix or are some or all operated as aux fed subs?


the 2 Driverack 260's are used as X-overs for the speakers. Each Driverack has 6 outputs mono or 3 stereo pairs, so we need 2 of them to have enough XOvers for the speakers. All the speakers are driven from the main mix
Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Wayne Garton on October 29, 2017, 09:25:07 pm

You didn't ask us about the tops so leaving that all aside you need some new subwoofers.  The flown 12's aren't doing sub duty and I assume they are crossed over to make up for the anemic low end response of the short line.  That's what you are going to have to live with. 

So what's your budget for the subs and what vendors can you source local?  For the type of music and size of the venue you need 4 average or 2 terrific double 18 cabinets.  The dollars are about the same.  With amplification figure 12k in the US.

We can't buy anything locally, but from Auckland (100 miles away) we could buy JBL EV Yamaha etc. from reputable companies.
Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Mike Caldwell on October 29, 2017, 11:53:45 pm
In your post you said your have 1 Beta TLB per side double 18 per side and if I read it correctly you also have two homemade subs as well.
I have never heard of "Beta" speakers and I' not going to speculate
on how they work and sound same goes for the quality of the homemade sub mentioned (not that is anything wrong with a properly designed and built homemade sub!) A big problem could be that the two types of subs are just not happy working together.

What is the purpose of the two DBX260 DSP's as in one for left and one for right?

Are all the subs being driven from the main mix or are some or all operated as aux fed subs?

When I first searched and looked up the Beta TLB I thought you had the double 18 version not a double 12.

All other fancy processing aside, where are you crossing over between all of your cabinets, the high pass and low pass of each.

Maybe think about re-configuring the main system as stereo three way and then running the subs you have as aux fed.
That in itself would not be a magic fix for your problem but it most likely would help clean up the overall sound.


Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Wayne Garton on October 30, 2017, 02:45:25 am
When I first searched and looked up the Beta TLB I thought you had the double 18 version not a double 12.

All other fancy processing aside, where are you crossing over between all of your cabinets, the high pass and low pass of each.

Maybe think about re-configuring the main system as stereo three way and then running the subs you have as aux fed.
That in itself would not be a magic fix for your problem but it most likely would help clean up the overall sound.
I don't have all the figures here at home, but I'll get them.
I had thought about your suggestion because it makes more sense to me, but the DBX tech from dbxpro.com suggested to use one on the left and one on the right. To me it seems harder to setup because you can't use the automatic eq setup as easily (using a mic and pink noise sweep) nor can you use the  microphone anti-feedback feature properly.
Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on October 30, 2017, 04:35:11 am
I don't have all the figures here at home, but I'll get them.
I had thought about your suggestion because it makes more sense to me, but the DBX tech from dbxpro.com suggested to use one on the left and one on the right. To me it seems harder to setup because you can't use the automatic eq setup as easily (using a mic and pink noise sweep) nor can you use the  microphone anti-feedback feature properly.
This makes me think your in over your head, no offence meant you can learn a lot here but correctly aligning and processing a loudspeaker system is not a matter of using the auto eq settings.

Honestly you need to get someone out there with a proper smaart rig and have them sort out the system for you. You will then know if you actually need more low end, you probably do and I can tell you you can get decent results but to fly subwoofers is not a small task for an in-house engineer.

Expect to pay a structural engineer to sign off on your hang points and weights as well as a rigging team to come and rig it to the structural engineers specifications.

After that you would be looking at quite expensive sub's to be able to fly them, other might have some input in the price range you can look at.

1. Is the 18kUSD per sub or for a complete set?

2. Do you understand the tradeoffs between a LR stack and a centre cardiod stack or even LR cardiod stacks if you have the budget for that?

I still think get a local integrator or consultant in to come and discuss your options with you and then come back and double check everything with everyone here.

We are more then willing to help and just don't want you to get suboptimal results.

3. Are the mains bi-amped/tri-amped or passively crossed over?

EDIT:

Your links that you posted has a user manual, there the manufacturer recommends one of their processors to do the 2-way crossover in the top boxes, why did you guys opt for the driverack unit over the manufacturers unit?

Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Mike Caldwell on October 30, 2017, 09:35:00 am
I don't have all the figures here at home, but I'll get them.
I had thought about your suggestion because it makes more sense to me, but the DBX tech from dbxpro.com suggested to use one on the left and one on the right. To me it seems harder to setup because you can't use the automatic eq setup as easily (using a mic and pink noise sweep) nor can you use the  microphone anti-feedback feature properly.

Forget about using the auto EQ, if you have tried to use it maybe it has added a lot of sub / low end boost that is contributing to your problem. Auto EQ can tend add boost to areas where your don't really need it.

Run the main system three way stereo, your flown double 12 low boxes with the mid and highs in the "line array" all from one DBX 260.
Use the 2nd DBX 260 to process your subs and run them from an aux out.

I could not find any suggested processor settings for your "line array" boxes.

How did you set up the 260's and to what guidelines?

My gut feeling is that even with just some generic crossover points for the given components in your system, flatten out what the auto EQ has tried to do, balance the general levels between the band passes and do a quick ring out EQ with a mic your system would be better sounding than it is now.

Your system for better or worse is not really that complex as it is now, with just two of the TLA boxes per side they are not a line array. With some basic proper dsp settings it would sound better than it has in a long time if not ever, at least that's my take on it from 8000 miles away.

 
Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Scott Holtzman on October 30, 2017, 01:19:24 pm
Thanks. That'll be what they are. They are mounted up high one above the other in a special bracket that angles them down

The manual has little meaningful information however I draw your attention to the bracket on page 9.  I sincerely hope this is the bracket you are referring to and that this was engineered and properly attached to your structure.  You have 300lb of speaker in the air.  This is a life safety concern.

http://www.beta3pro.com/uploads/soft/20160629/1467176790.pdf

Second here are the factory settings.  As pointed out, auto settings are not useful.  Your use of them does give a general indication you lack experience in setting up systems of this type.

You should clear your processors and start with these settings.

http://www.beta3pro.com/uploads/soft/20170622/1498131467.pdf
Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Mike Caldwell on October 30, 2017, 04:59:44 pm
I was going guess around 1,800hz to cross into the highs, personally I would high pass the 10's a little higher since they have that double 12 box for lows.

Airline tickets for two, a weeks stay somewhere nice, dinner each night and I'll come there to set it for you!

Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Don T. Williams on October 30, 2017, 06:13:36 pm
The manual has little meaningful information however I draw your attention to the bracket on page 9.  I sincerely hope this is the bracket you are referring to and that this was engineered and properly attached to your structure.  You have 300lb of speaker in the air.  This is a life safety concern.

http://www.beta3pro.com/uploads/soft/20160629/1467176790.pdf

Second here are the factory settings.  As pointed out, auto settings are not useful.  Your use of them does give a general indication you lack experience in setting up systems of this type.

You should clear your processors and start with these settings.

http://www.beta3pro.com/uploads/soft/20170622/1498131467.pdf

All the above!  Scott is dead on with this advice.  The auto settings just never work correctly in my experience and do more harm than good.  If you can find someone with Smaart or other test gear with experience in equalizing rooms, that could be a very good investment.

Echoing the thoughts of others, it's not so much the gear but it's how its is set up and used.  The Beta3 may be better (or worse) than more well know brands of loudspeakers.  But any brand of speaker set and equalized wrong will not sound good.
Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Scott Holtzman on October 30, 2017, 07:05:55 pm
All the above!  Scott is dead on with this advice.  The auto settings just never work correctly in my experience and do more harm than good.  If you can find someone with Smaart or other test gear with experience in equalizing rooms, that could be a very good investment.

Echoing the thoughts of others, it's not so much the gear but it's how its is set up and used.  The Beta3 may be better (or worse) than more well know brands of loudspeakers.  But any brand of speaker set and equalized wrong will not sound good.

I also wanted to add that you came here with what you thought was a simple question regarding subwoofers and have received a heap of unsolicited advice.  I am sure you are questioning long held beliefs and the groups sanity all at once.

There are many forums that will give you slip shot advice and emotional confirmation of an idea.  This isn't one of them.  The folks advising you are industry veterans with decades of experience.   This is hard one advice.  As one of the least experienced voices in this thread I implore you to avail yourself of the advice and get back on track.  It's simply not good stewardship to go about spending the churches money without a proper design.

Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Wayne Garton on October 31, 2017, 03:21:19 am
So thank you all for your input. I have learnt a lot so far!
I’ll be perfectly frank with you. I came here to learn. My background is studio commercial recording, not live sound. And I did not set up the church system, but we did have several professionals who helped.
The change-around of the auditorium and the partial set-up of the sound system was down to the wire before the Sunday service. To make it worse, one of the Driveracks died and a 360 model was borrowed at the 11th hour to replace the “dead” 260 model.
All in all, the system needs setting up properly from scratch.

I am an Elder and am trying to help the congregation while I try to get a handle on what has been done so far and why; and why it is not sounding good and how it can be sorted.
Today I went into the auditorium and took some photos and had a better look at what we have and it appears that I may not have accurately remembered all the details.
Today I talked to the person who sold us the speakers and advised on how they us set similar systems up when they hire them out for gigs and concerts.

From listening to all you guys, I don’t think the floor subs are the problem. From collecting all the various bits of opinion and fact together, I believe that we should first concentrate on getting the overhead speakers working together in the best possible manner.

To help all you friendly long-distance advisers, I have put together a pdf with photos and all the bits of information I have gathered. To Mike Caldwell, maybe if you lived in Australia I would fly you out and you would seriously love our beautiful country, but perhaps I’ll decline at the moment since I’m assuming you live in the States.
About the Mechanical Engineer. Yes it was approved by a certified Engineer and the local authority has approved it.
As to why we opted for the driverack unit over the manufacturers unit. We bought the speakers as a unit second-hand and there was no manufacturer’s Xover unit with them. We followed the advice of the one who advised us.

So here goes. Round 2.
A) I learned today that our second Driverack 260 can’t be fixed, so we are either going to have to buy another one the same or do something else totally different.
B) For a start, I do not understand why we can’t do a 3 or 4 way Crossover with the flying speakers and not the complicated way it is set-up? (read the pdf and see if you can work it out) One of the Engineers who helped to set it up (he lives 1000 kilometres away) said that according to his calculations with the room dimensions, and the throw we needed ,we should not link the TLA’s together.
(By the way, the auditorium is 22 metres or 72 feet from speakers to rear wall and it is 17 metres wide or 56 feet seating about 350 people. The sound desk is 15 metres or 49 feet from the speakers)
C) It would appear that our floor subs might be OK, but I suspect that because of the last-minute set-up of audio along with builders, painters, visuals and everything else tripping over each other, no delay has been programmed into the driverack and the floor subs are filling the room with out of phase frequencies.

I take on board what several of you have said about getting in professional people.  So now I am trying to up my knowledge level to work out where to go for the next step.
All constructive thoughts are helpful and appreciated.

ps just found out you can't attach a pdf so have to rethink getting the info. to you.
Right so here is some of it.
What the audio engineer said.

The TLBs have a very flat frequency response between 50Hz and 250Hz.
The last install I did with the B3 system (in a smaller space than yours however), we had ground subs at 28-60hz, TLBs at 55-225hz, TLA mids at 220-2khz, and TLA tops at 2khz-19khz.
These are usually my pre-configured settings too for when we hire out our system and it's a pretty good starting point.
We have also successfully used the TLB speakers as the sole subs for a few events also and they have performed beautifully, however that has always been as a ground stacked installation. But that does give me an idea on how effective they could be once you find the sweet spot for them amongst the rest of the environment.
Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Wayne Garton on October 31, 2017, 03:22:40 am
And
Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Wayne Garton on October 31, 2017, 03:23:54 am
And
Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on October 31, 2017, 03:56:50 am
I am sincerely worried about none of those amps being matching.

Start with the advice up above, set the processor settings to the manufacturer's recommended settings, if the phase tracers are correct in the documents there shouldn't be much issues. I think follow the manufacturer's specs for the TLBs as well and don't delay either one at all relative to the other it seems pretty phase coherent but I cannot guarantee anything since literally I have never even heard of these speakers. I seriously doubt that the TLB's phase response is anything like what the manual says it is purely because physics but let's start at the base until you can get someone out there with a smaart rig to do some actual measurements.

I would low pass the ground subs at 100Hz and High pass them at 40 Hz.

With the ground stack subs make sure they are the same level as the flown subs IN THE BACK ROW OF THE AUDITORIUM, send a 100Hz sine wave to both and then phase invert the ground stack subs, IN THE BACK ROW OF THE AUDITORIUM add delay to the ground stack subs until there is maximum cancellation, you can use a laser measure on both the flown and ground stack to get you in the ballpark then just fine tune from there(you measure the distance and then divide it by the speed of sound to get seconds then subtract the two times from each other the ground stack subs should be a lower number), when that is done undo the phase inversion on the ground stack subs but leave the delay where you set it, you should now have a noticeable bump in the low frequency response. Play your favorite test music and have a listen front to back, hopefully there shouldn't be too much buildup up front and there should be enough low end.

That should give you serviceable results as long as all the assumptions I made is correct which is a lot and I honestly cannot even think that you will be able to align the rig without smaart. You literally cannot align that system without knowing exactly what the phase response is doing and I wouldn't trust the measurements I am seeing from the manufacturer but I hope you at least find that better.
Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 31, 2017, 07:46:05 am
, TLA mids at 220-2khz, and TLA tops at 2khz-19khz.

The simple fact that they are using full range cabinets and dividing the freq up as you say, is GOOD REASON TO RUN from them and their ideas as fast as you can.

They don't have a basic understanding of what they have installed, how it is supposed to work etc.

Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Wayne Garton on October 31, 2017, 04:02:15 pm
The simple fact that they are using full range cabinets and dividing the freq up as you say, is GOOD REASON TO RUN from them and their ideas as fast as you can.

They don't have a basic understanding of what they have installed, how it is supposed to work etc.
OK
One more picture
Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 31, 2017, 04:59:30 pm
OK
One more picture
I stand behind my comment-no matter the size of the venue.

They are simply not using the cabinets as intended, and no amount of "special sauce" will fix that.
Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Wayne Garton on October 31, 2017, 06:48:08 pm
I stand behind my comment-no matter the size of the venue.

They are simply not using the cabinets as intended, and no amount of "special sauce" will fix that.
Thanks Ivan
Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Scott Holtzman on October 31, 2017, 07:00:55 pm
Thanks Ivan

To add to your worries, none of the pictures show how the speakers are mounted.  Was the factory frame used?  How was it attached to the ceiling?

Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Wayne Garton on October 31, 2017, 08:27:34 pm
To add to your worries, none of the pictures show how the speakers are mounted.  Was the factory frame used?  How was it attached to the ceiling?
I'll go in and take a photo or two tomorrow
Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on November 01, 2017, 04:24:35 am
I remember OP stating that it was signed off, that means any liability would be on the engineer that signed off the hang, hopefully he was a certified structural engineer.

What's the news on reconfiguring the system? Guaranteed you will get significant better results changing the crossover points and removing any eq that is current on the system that isn't in the manufacturers documents.

If you notice some weird things like some frequencies are completely missing or such come back here and ask, this is likely something you cannot fix with EQ and we will need to help you find a solution.

Also do yourself a favour and download all the sub articles that were released over the last few weeks on prosoundweb, there is so much good information in there you won't regret it.

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Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on November 01, 2017, 04:29:29 am
In case you were wondering 2-4 point source speakers would have worked perfectly in that venue...

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Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Wayne Garton on November 01, 2017, 06:40:17 pm
To add to your worries, none of the pictures show how the speakers are mounted.  Was the factory frame used?  How was it attached to the ceiling?
Yes to the frame. Yes to the qualified structural Engineer. They are wired, strapped and safety wired as well. In NZ all forms of building for homes, workplaces, auditoriums, caravans, anything are checked by the local councils and specialised building inspectors are sent around. Then you are checked for fire safety etc.
Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Wayne Garton on November 01, 2017, 06:42:39 pm
From rear. Bit hard to see on top without climbing a ladder. Don't want to do that with no-one else here.
Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Wayne Garton on November 01, 2017, 06:44:06 pm
Floor sub
Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Wayne Garton on November 01, 2017, 06:49:37 pm

What's the news on reconfiguring the system? Guaranteed you will get significant better results changing the crossover points and removing any eq that is current on the system that isn't in the manufacturers documents.

If you notice some weird things like some frequencies are completely missing or such come back here and ask, this is likely something you cannot fix with EQ and we will need to help you find a solution.

Also do yourself a favour and download all the sub articles that were released over the last few weeks on prosoundweb, there is so much good information in there you won't regret it.
Thanks. I did download the subwoofer articles and they are awesome.
I have contacted a mega-church in Auckland and a couple of sound guys with smaart are coming up to help setup in December. They are prepared to donated their time to help us. In the meantime, when I get a day free from work and all the other things, I will do as you say and feed in the manufacturer's settings.
Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Don T. Williams on November 01, 2017, 08:55:00 pm
Thanks. I did download the subwoofer articles and they are awesome.
I have contacted a mega-church in Auckland and a couple of sound guys with smaart are coming up to help setup in December. They are prepared to donated their time to help us. In the meantime, when I get a day free from work and all the other things, I will do as you say and feed in the manufacturer's settings.

You will be very glad you did.  I'm with Ivan on the strange way it was crossed over.  That just wasn't right and could never maximize the output that might be possible from the system.  Keep us informed.
Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Scott Holtzman on November 01, 2017, 09:02:40 pm
Yes to the frame. Yes to the qualified structural Engineer. They are wired, strapped and safety wired as well. In NZ all forms of building for homes, workplaces, auditoriums, caravans, anything are checked by the local councils and specialised building inspectors are sent around. Then you are checked for fire safety etc.

Opinions on those straps for a permanent install? 

Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Wayne Garton on November 01, 2017, 09:27:19 pm
Opinions on those straps for a permanent install?
There are thick wires as well that I could see but the photo doesn't show it. But as I said, i couldn't get high enough to have a real good look.
The Project manager is away overseas at the moment. He'll be back in a couple of weeks.
Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on November 02, 2017, 02:07:59 am
Opinions on those straps for a permanent install?
From what I know those straps will melt when exposed to some decent heat so not sure about the fixed install but if the wire rope is correctly attached that will at least make it safe.

Make sure that your hang points get inspected often, specially if your using straps like that.

Also please when you have the opportunity check how those straps are connected to the fly bar, I think I saw some shackles there and if that is correct the angle they are within those shackles might be a near the Max. Also make sure that the wire rope safety's are not slack, they should be tight, if the main support fails and they are slack they are very likely to fail immediately as well. The wire rope should also have some sort of tubing around it, it should not be raw wire in the trussing.

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Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on November 02, 2017, 02:11:31 am
Also is it just me or is there no cable connected to the speakon in the top TLA

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Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Scott Holtzman on November 02, 2017, 02:37:34 am
I see the top speakon.  If you zoom in you can see the safety cable between the span sets and the single cable between the rear angle adjusts.  Not a rigger but looks dicey.  The truss is also just spigoted triangle truss. 

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Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on November 02, 2017, 02:44:36 am
I see the top speakon.  If you zoom in you can see the safety cable between the span sets and the single cable between the rear angle adjusts.  Not a rigger but looks dicey.  The truss is also just spigoted triangle truss. 

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I'm talking about the rear angle photo, I don't think that the two photos are of the same hang. The rear one I don't see a cable connected to the speakon can even see the white strain relief in the hole so I doubt that box is connected. Would check that its getting signal but if there's no cable connected I doubt it.

Regarding the rigging I only see the straps and one very thin looking slack cable between the boxes and the truss so I doubt that will support that load should it fall.

Precautionary measure don't point any lights at the speakers.

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Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Wayne Garton on November 02, 2017, 04:34:57 am
I'm talking about the rear angle photo, I don't think that the two photos are of the same hang. The rear one I don't see a cable connected to the speakon can even see the white strain relief in the hole so I doubt that box is connected. Would check that its getting signal but if there's no cable connected I doubt it.

Regarding the rigging I only see the straps and one very thin looking slack cable between the boxes and the truss so I doubt that will support that load should it fall.

Precautionary measure don't point any lights at the speakers.

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I'll and get someone young to get up and have a real look at what's there and get it checked. I was there by myself in the semi-dark and stood on the highest thing I could find, taking the photos by flash.
And you are right, the back photo is of a different set than the side-on photo. However I could just make out some cables (about 4-5 mm across) very close to the straps.
Thanks guys.
Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Mike Caldwell on November 02, 2017, 10:53:37 am
Thanks. I did download the subwoofer articles and they are awesome.
I have contacted a mega-church in Auckland and a couple of sound guys with smaart are coming up to help setup in December. They are prepared to donated their time to help us. In the meantime, when I get a day free from work and all the other things, I will do as you say and feed in the manufacturer's settings.

Make sure you SMAART guys know more than just looking at a computer screen. I would guess there going to have dig into the guts of the system configuration as in the actual hard wiring configuration of the system.

It would not hurt to check for proper wiring of XLR cables, speaker cables and that all the drivers are actually working before even starting to program the DSP and starting to take measurements.
Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Ivan Beaver on November 03, 2017, 07:47:07 am
M
It would not hurt to check for proper wiring of XLR cables, speaker cables and that all the drivers are actually working before even starting to program the DSP and starting to take measurements.
THAT is the FIRST step in "tuning" a system.  Make sure it is all working properly, in proper polarity, all the drivers working etc.

If you have issues there, then you are just wasting your time trying to "fix" it with eq etc.
Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Warrick Moore on November 04, 2017, 06:19:32 am
Wayne

Hello from a fellow Kiwi living in the UK.
Can't understand why you went with a cheap Chinese brand, When more common brands are available in NZ
(Yes they may need to be shipped over)

You mentioned they were used for Coldplay concert... Who was the sound company? For international bands the local rig used to be some Meyer hangs.

Next time contact http://lampros.co.nz/ who will get you some nice Danley point source speakers :)

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Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Wayne Garton on November 04, 2017, 09:23:14 pm
Wayne

Hello from a fellow Kiwi living in the UK.
Can't understand why you went with a cheap Chinese brand, When more common brands are available in NZ
(Yes they may need to be shipped over)

The decision was made by the financial people because the job was part of a very large project re-furbishing the auditorium and that necessitated replacing the floor, aircons, fire-doors and lots more. I'm just picking up the pieces. The speakers were 2nd hand. So it is what it is!
Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Richard Strothman on November 17, 2017, 03:18:19 am
We have a medium size rectangular auditorium with a very high ceiling (seats about 350). Speakers are passive line arrays; 2 X Beta TLA's and 1 X Beta TLB's on each side. Under stage we have a home-made subwoofers which need replacing. They also need to fly since the kick and bass is being absorbed by about the first 10 rows. Crossovers are 2 X Driverack 260's (one on left and right)
Anyone know of some suitable overhead subs we could buy (either powered or passive)? Worship is modern, Hillsong/Bethel/Contemporary Music.

I am particularly fond of QSC KLA181s for flying subs. I use two per side with three QSC KLA12s flown per side lifted about twentysix feet above the floor. I ground stack two KW181s and two KLA12s below the lift but on a platform anchored on the lifts legs. The KLA12s on the ground stack are on 36” poles and are set to the down angle. For center and side fills we use different mixtures of QSC KW153s, or KW122s over KSubs depending on the size and shape of the room. There is sufficient power across all frequencies to fill a fairly large venue. My church’s sanctuary is similar to yours and this rig fills it very well for the Hillsong style music played in or Sunday morning services. For teen and young adult programs on Saturday nights I double up the f.o.h. because we frequently have bands like We Are Vessel, As We Are, Red Letter Hymnal or Shine Effect, i.e., loud.
Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Scott Mullane on November 24, 2017, 04:40:15 pm
I was of the understanding that those Beta3 mid/high cabs have a passive crossover built in. So using an external mid and high band across those cabinets is really going to mess things up. I think Ivan was mentioning this as well. I have had the misfortune of mixing on a couple of Beta3 systems and let's just say that they are much better than most chinarrays, but still way off a well designed system. Their pattern control is terrible.
Having said that, you should be able to make it work, well at least sound more correct for those that will be in the beam of the three cabinets.
You really should get a medal for persevering with what looks and sounds (from your description) of a really terrible install.
The good news is that you should easily be able to run that system from a single drive rack and hopefully your volunteers from Aukland will be of great assistance to you...at least once they get over the shock of what they are faced with.
I am looking forward to hearing of some very positive improvements after they arrive.
Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Wayne Garton on December 19, 2017, 04:40:52 pm
I was of the understanding that those Beta3 mid/high cabs have a passive crossover built in. So using an external mid and high band across those cabinets is really going to mess things up. I think Ivan was mentioning this as well.
I am looking forward to hearing of some very positive improvements after they arrive.
It looks like it will be in January now before the cavalry arrive from Auckland. However, we have rewired the TLA's in parallel as suggested here, and rewired to one drive rack in stereo with seperate outputs for mids and highs (using the manufacturer's suggested crossover points). The flying subs and the floor subs are now being fed from the other drive rack using a seperate output from the desk (using the high and low pass figures suggested here).
We also found that in the haste of getting the auditorium completed. the electrician had wired some of the speakers out of phase with their counterparts on the other side of the room.
Already the system sounds heaps better.

Where did you see that the TLA's had a passive crossover built-in? Below is what it says in the specs and I read it to mean that you can buy an optional seperate active crossover and use that if you want ...
[The TLA101 is a 2-way design housing 2   10" neodymium kapton LF drivers and two 2   4"   1" (101.6 25.4)mm neodymium Kapton compression drivers. The cylindrical wave segments of each cabinet will couple without gaps and sum up coherently. Splay angles between adjacent cabinets can be set in the range form 0   to 5   in half degree steps.
TLA-101 system is two channels of amplifier UA2000 or UA2002(with active crossover provided by C-2600 between LF/MF and HF section of the 10" speaker). It can also be driven by AP-4U orAM-4U with analog or digital control cards.]
Title: Re: New subwoofer recommendations
Post by: Wayne Garton on January 26, 2018, 03:34:56 am
Well, the knight in shining armour with the SMAART tools arrived (MacBook, I\O device and a ton of knowledge)
He tweaked the system adjusting the phasing at the crossover points, and then adjusted various part of the frequency response up or down as required and shown on screen. Compromises all round. But we have a new speaker system that actually sounds good. It's now got a ton of bottom end and we don't need new subwoofers or to chuck out the Chinese flying speakers.
Thanks guys for your help.