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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Tyler Wolfe on December 10, 2012, 12:18:55 AM

Title: passive or powered pt.II
Post by: Tyler Wolfe on December 10, 2012, 12:18:55 AM
we're needing a pa for small bars and are about to buy new mains and a sub. we're looking at Yamaha C112 or EV ELX-112 with seperate power amp (maybe qsc gx5 or a similar peavey), or the powered ELX-112p. i understand powered is the easy way to go. i would like to know if it's worth the money saved to go passive? if so, what's the best route?

thank you, mac, for the route suggestion.
Title: Re: passive or powered pt.II
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on December 10, 2012, 11:14:15 AM
we're needing a pa for small bars and are about to buy new mains and a sub. we're looking at Yamaha C112 or EV ELX-112 with seperate power amp (maybe qsc gx5 or a similar peavey), or the powered ELX-112p. i understand powered is the easy way to go. i would like to know if it's worth the money saved to go passive? if so, what's the best route?

thank you, mac, for the route suggestion.

How do you figure you're saving money going passive? To get performance similar to a good quality active box(Yamaha DXR/DSR, QSC K/KW, JBL PRX) you need amplifiers and DSP processing and the knowledge to correctly configure it for your particular speakers. Powered speakers aren't a complete magic bullet but at this level they will sound better right out of the box and be more idiot proof.. which is most of the battle.
Title: Re: passive or powered pt.II
Post by: Jamin Lynch on December 10, 2012, 03:38:06 PM
we're needing a pa for small bars and are about to buy new mains and a sub. we're looking at Yamaha C112 or EV ELX-112 with seperate power amp (maybe qsc gx5 or a similar peavey), or the powered ELX-112p. i understand powered is the easy way to go. i would like to know if it's worth the money saved to go passive? if so, what's the best route?

thank you, mac, for the route suggestion.

Every time I add it up, I come out spending less with powered speakers.
Title: Re: passive or powered pt.II
Post by: Scott Bolt on December 10, 2012, 06:47:36 PM
You may want to consider the RCF312a as well.  These can be had for $450.00 ea and are a better sounding speaker than the LiveX IMHO.  They are really a steal in this market segment.

As for the passive/active debate, for bar bands I would never recommend anything but active.  They are simply easier to get great sound out of for the vast majority of users out there ..... and they offer built in protection from most stupidity as well ;)
Title: Re: passive or powered pt.II
Post by: Sam Feine on December 11, 2012, 10:26:55 AM
I recently had a thread that was in a similar vain as yours. Other than the specifics of my situation being different, it seams like active almost always wins out in the case of smaller systems that don't already have all of the support infrastructure that passive needs (ie. amps, dsp, power distribution).

I believe that right now your best bet is to go powered if only because it is much harder to accidentally kill and requires much less tuning to get a good sound.
Title: Re: passive or powered pt.II
Post by: Steve Kas on December 12, 2012, 04:05:01 AM
I'm getting some ELX-112Ps this week. I'll post a review when I get them. Cheers.
Title: Re: passive or powered pt.II
Post by: Steve Kas on December 17, 2012, 05:13:30 AM
So, I got 2 of 8 EV ELX-112Ps yesterday (*Saturday"). I put them on a stick tonight at a volunteer appreciation dinner gig in McKinney Texas. 300+ people with speeches, awards, and a new "national" recording artist singing to a track. 

Gear- (35 min in and 20 minute out!):

- 1x Mackie 18" powered sub off an aux (A&H desk).
- 2 x EV ELX-112Ps on 1 stick with dual spk. adapter
- 1 x Shure Beta 58 wireless
Puter w/ virtual DJ and MK2 DJ mixer
- 4 x Par 64 LED on tripod w/T

1. Very light weight box. They look like they would be heavy, but they're not. Easy to put up and down on/off a stick.

2. Annoying almost "white noise" though cabs (at home). However, not noticable in venue with people.
 
3. Good vocal clarity (notch out the EV 2.5- 3K garbage). Much smoother and warmer than QSC K series or RCF ART's.

4. These guys get hot (temperature). My A &H didn't see -6 dB all night and the tops were still warm/hot at the end of the gig. They are definetly not going outside this summer in Texas.

5. Good track reproduction- but you wlll need a sub.

Overall, 4/5 stars on this entry cabinet. I am a bit worried about the heat issues. However, the portability (<40 lb) and clean sound of the box make the EV ELX-112P a winner! I got mine for $399/box NEW! 2 x Yorkville LS- 801P , X32, and 6 more ELX's come tommorow (Monday). I'll let y'all know about these soon. Cheers.
Title: Re: passive or powered pt.II
Post by: Mario Maric on December 17, 2012, 10:59:07 AM
I enjoy not needing to plug in every individual speaker to a power source, personally. It gets annoying if your whole system is powered. That's not the only reason of course, but it's a thing to keep in mind. Choose a route that best fits your needs. From what it sounds like you do, powered speakers sound like a better choice. Otherwise the GX5 will be fine if you choose a passive route with the speakers you mentioned.
Title: Re: passive or powered pt.II
Post by: Scott Bolt on December 17, 2012, 11:55:18 AM
Steve,

Thanks for the report.

I am surprised to hear that the RCF's didn't sound as smooth as the ELX (not so surprised about the K's as I have always thought they were a bit on the harsh side at higher volumes).

Those 801p's are going to really surprise you if you have never heard them before (easily 2 times as loud as most powered subs .... and 2 times as heavy ;) ).

I am surprised to hear about the heat on the ELX's as well.  The PRX's also appear to have the same design (ie get hot even when idle).

My DSR112's stay relatively cool even when pushed to their limiters, but my PRX618S-XLF's get hot as others have mentioned.

From my understanding, this is done by design with the positive being more signal to noise ratio.

I am guessing (I am an electrical engineer, but not an amp designer) that there is also a power to weight advantage to this design as well (while my DSR's do remain quite cool, they are considerably heavier than either the PRX or ELX).

Looking forward to hearing how the rest of your gear sounds ;)
Title: Re: passive or powered pt.II
Post by: Brett Gilbert on December 17, 2012, 12:52:23 PM
I debated this for about 6 months while rebuilding my PA system. In the end I went passive on the mains and powered on the monitors.

The main thing for me was being in Oklahoma and dealing with outdoor heat.  Direct sun on some, not all, powered cabinets can push them into a thermal fault.  Going the passive route let me protect the amps with some shade and extra fan cooling.

Additionally as several people said having to running multiple cables takes extra time and the potential of having switches bumped or levels adjusted incorrectly can be an issue. 

But this was for my particular scenario, I wanted a fairly bullet-proof system.
Title: passive or powered pt.II
Post by: eric lenasbunt on December 17, 2012, 01:31:51 PM
I had a very bad experience with thermal failures on the ELX112p.  Warranty repaired and then acting up again.
  I would also say investing in some AC/signal cable combo runs makes a giant difference. Then you just run a single line from each powered speaker like you would passive. I bought Elite Core, as they are in my budget. So far they have held up fine.
 It was one of those purchases that make you kick yourself for not doing it months ago.
Title: Re: passive or powered pt.II
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 17, 2012, 01:42:49 PM
I had a very bad experience with thermal failures on the ELX112p.  Warranty repaired and then acting up again.
  I would also say investing in some AC/signal cable combo runs makes a giant difference. Then you just run a single line from each powered speaker like you would passive. I bought Elite Core, as they are in my budget. So far they have held up fine.
 It was one of those purchases that make you kick yourself for not doing it months ago.

We had an act come through that had a very elegant (and probably expensive) way to deal with signal and power for their monitor rig.  The had a rack mount box that had signal input on a CPC (up to 12 mixes) and power on L21-30.  There were 12 PowerCon outlets, each with a 15 amp pushbutton circuit breaker and above those were XLR-M.  They used the "siamese" cables with power & signal.  One big power cord into the box and a CPC from the monitor desk outputs.  Save time and the big mess that can build up when the power & signal cables need to reach different places.

I realize that this may not be a direct solution for many Lounge participants, but hopefully it will give some impetus to other creative solutions for these needs.
Title: Re: passive or powered pt.II
Post by: Scott Wagner on December 17, 2012, 04:49:54 PM
I am surprised to hear about the heat on the ELX's as well.  The PRX's also appear to have the same design (ie get hot even when idle).
Disclaimer: I have exactly ZERO experience with ELX.

That said, I've run my PRX6xx in direct sunlight, ambient temp over 105F, all day long on many occassions with exactly zero issues.  They do get hot at idle, but they don't appear to get any hotter when driven hard, either.  Ensure adequate airflow (ie: don't stuff them in corners, etc), and they should be fine.  I do carry extra fans (just in case), but have yet to deploy them on anything but the talent.
Title: Re: passive or powered pt.II
Post by: Steve Garris on December 17, 2012, 07:08:00 PM
I'm looking forward to hear how the 112P's work as monitor wedges. I looked at the manual and was very happy to see a steep 60 deg tilt up on the wedge, which is badly needed on small stages.
Title: Re: passive or powered pt.II
Post by: Steve Kas on December 19, 2012, 01:40:58 AM
I'm using 4 x 112Ps and 2 LS 801Ps at FOH and 4x 112P's on the deck this weekend at an indoor wedding band event in Dallas. I chose our X32 for this event. If it performs well, it may take the place of our XL3/drive-efx racks for wedding FOH. Pre's sound ok in phones and onboard eq, dynamics, and efx appear adequate. We'll see how she performs this weekend.

Thanks for the posts regarding AC and signal cable issues. I am running 2 x quads to house L and R. 3 x quads downstage (wedges, downstage artist toys, etc..) off 1 feed and the same upstage for backline. House is providing a compliment of 5 x 110V/20 amp circuits. Hopefully, we will be ok. I strongly considered carrying a 200 A  distro, but budget won't allpw. Yorkville specs LS-801P at 2500 W/ per box. EV specs ELX 112P at 1000 W/ per box. My math tells me-

4 x112P= 4000 W
2 x LS-801= 5000 W
That's 9K on the house and another 4K + (add backline)

13K W=  118 amps (6 x 20 amp circuits). assuming I get 110V from the house.

Pssisive FOH with my trusted feeder and distro might be sounding good after this event. We'll see. I'm praying for low stage volume and lots of Sinatra! Oh, stage lighting is ALL LED! Whew!!lol

I'll let y'all know how it goes.
Title: Re: passive or powered pt.II
Post by: Mark Gensman on December 19, 2012, 02:16:55 AM
I like having the ability to mix and match speakers to the gig. I invested in power amps and now only take what I need to the gig.

I have heard some great sounding active systems, but since I already owned the power amps, I just add or change passive speakers as necessary. Keeping the amps in the shade during outdoor gigs when it's hot saves me from failures and I don't have to run power all over the place. 
Title: Re: passive or powered pt.II
Post by: Brett Gilbert on December 19, 2012, 12:12:26 PM
I like having the ability to mix and match speakers to the gig. I invested in power amps and now only take what I need to the gig.

I have heard some great sounding active systems, but since I already owned the power amps, I just add or change passive speakers as necessary. Keeping the amps in the shade during outdoor gigs when it's hot saves me from failures and I don't have to run power all over the place.

Very true and if you need to add a speaker it's a peice of cake.  I do a show regularly at a local bar and they have a patio with garage doors.  When I know the weather is nice and they're going to open the overheards I bring an extra speaker and stand and jumper from the speaker on the other side of the wall. I don't have to bring another power cable, audio cable, and buy a more expensive powered speaker for occasional use.

But everyone's needs are different, that's just one facet of how going passive can be a small benefit.

I think the biggest question is the users, are they technically savy or not, if not go the powered route, if they are, go the passive route. Just my $.02
Title: Re: passive or powered pt.II
Post by: Steve Kas on January 02, 2013, 07:10:43 AM
Sorry for the late reply. NYE and Christmas shows - well most of you know!!

I was 119 dbSPL @ 100' from the deck, 800+ people, and ran 8 EV ELX112P's (4 FOH) with 2 Yorky LS-801P's on 3 x 110V/20A (my rider requested 6!!) . No problema and my client was happy!  EV ELX-112P's and Yorkville LS-801P's were screaming, "GIVE ME MORE"!!! My pants were shaking at FOH! Albeit, FOH world was at the back of the small venue.  Best "club"  rig I've mixed on since EAW KF-650/ EV MTL-2 or EAW SB-850/1000 w/ Crest 8001/7001.

I mixed the wedding band on my IPAD/ Behringer X32 with no FOH snake runs! We used our 4G for interface because the venue's "WIFI" was clearly busy.

I dropped 2 x 12 channel snakes up and downstage. with a compliment of 3 x AC quads up and down stage, and guitar world (9 total).

Gig log (2 man crew):

90 minutes in (hotel dock) - including 24 LED can rigging/ 2 vertical truss and network interface for our Behringer X32

30 min mic/DI/ backline, etc.. in- (1 half filled 12' trailer! :)  NO MERCH!! Just drums, amps, guitars (only 3?), 2 keyboards, stands, and music stands/facades. They were thrilled that me and my crew (1 guy) loaded them in!! :)

Free booze and food and a 78 minute load out from the band's "Goodnight" schpeeel!!

Compare to NYE at a national venue. House PA/Lights was provided. Band carried 1x 14' trailer of merch, guitars, amps, etc.. 2 1/2  hr in and 2 hour out with 3-6  guys!!!!Touring guys know what I'm talking about. 

I know the last paragragh was a different topic, but still the same point of this thread.

Powereed (active) speakers are fine for the majority of a local <1000 person audio company INDOORS. We'll take her out in the summer with 2 more LS-801P's and 2x more EV ELX-112Ps  and see....imho

This rig is not rider friendly...  But, if your market is local band, etc...  this is a cheap and profittable alternative. Though, the LS-801P's are heavy and the EV ELX112Ps scratch easlily (but they are LIGHT!!! :)   )

I'll send pics of my cable runs soon. I am refining them . I'm using Pro-CO AC/XLR  runs now. But, I am working on a better SL, SR, and downstage monitor run. But again, not on this thread's topic.

Sorry for the rant!!

Side note:  YOU TUBE AUDIO GUYS- PLEASE STOP SAYING. "KEEP PRACTICING!"   
 
Title: Re: passive or powered pt.II
Post by: Steve Garris on January 03, 2013, 07:22:40 PM


Thanks for the update. That's a quick load-in, load out!  Did the EV's work well as monitors? Did you have any difficulty keeping the power cables plugged in while running them as wedges?
Title: Re: passive or powered pt.II
Post by: Steve Kas on January 08, 2013, 11:30:01 PM
No issues with power cables in the ELX 112Ps on the deck. They sound fine as wedges. No complaints from the artist. I ran 4 off 1 20 amp circuit with no problem. However, only voxs and horns. These aren't high end wedges (micro, etc..), but the do the trick if you are on a budget. Like I said before, they scratch really easy. CHEAP CHEAP wood used for this enclosure. But they are ridiculously light. BUY COVERS!
Title: Re: passive or powered pt.II
Post by: Jason Vanick on January 09, 2013, 08:15:16 AM
I've been running a complete ELX setup now for about a year and a half... doing everything from side-stage at a small outdoor festival to up to 125 or so people at small size clubs with my 2 bands.

2 ELX115Ps for the mains
1 ELX118P for the sub
4 ELX112Ps for monitors

We've been extremely happy with the cost to performance ratio of this setup.  They do get hot, but I haven't had any thermal issues yet.  The IEC power cables do have a tendancy to get loose over time. I've solved this with 1 wrap of etape on the connector, also.. the knobs had a tendency to fall off over time... which after I set everything at as close to unity as I could figure out, I just took off and store in a ziplock in my road kit.

For you guys who are thinking that you can only put 4 of these on a 20a circuit, that's definitely not the case... may nights, I run the entire pa (all 7 cabinets) off of one 20a circuit.  I have electrical monitoring that we've brought along with too (monitors individual circuits)... our entire draw for the PA side was roughly 800 watts, add in my small FOH setup, and we were right around 1300 watts, or just a bit under 10 amps peak draw. 

as far as the finish goes, a black sharpie or paint pen will go a long way keeping them look nice.  but really for $600/cabinet you can't complain too much.

My vocalists are extremely happy with the sound from the 12's too... no complaints there, and so much better than the old wedges we had. (SX200s on a CE1000)

One note, that saved our butts one night.. our mixer failed mid show... since the EV's have 2 built-in Mic-Pres, we were able to plug the vocal mics directly into the first cabinet, and daisy chain the rest to finish out the show... not ideal, but.. the show must go on.  Try that with your separate amps and cabs.
Title: Re: passive or powered pt.II
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on January 09, 2013, 01:36:54 PM
Yorkville specs LS-801P at 2500 W/ per box. EV specs ELX 112P at 1000 W/ per box. My math tells me-

4 x112P= 4000 W
2 x LS-801= 5000 W
That's 9K on the house and another 4K + (add backline)

13K W=  118 amps (6 x 20 amp circuits). assuming I get 110V from the house.

Steve.. nothing wrong with your math but if you look at the owners manuals you'll see actual AC current draw for these boxes is way down from your estimates. Max current draw for the LS801p on 115v mains is 7.5A and while EV doesn't list it in the specs section they mention in the text that under high signal conditions the ELX amplifier can draw a wopping 1A.
Title: Re: passive or powered pt.II
Post by: Steve Garris on January 09, 2013, 06:05:50 PM
Try that with your separate amps and cabs.

I agree, and excellent report. Thanks!