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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Installed Sound/Contracting => Topic started by: Mike Sullivan on March 01, 2014, 11:45:47 PM
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As the title says, it's the usual cash-strapped nightclub/music venue, with a half working sound system. Here's what they have at the moment...
2 JBL SR4733x (working)
2 JBL SR4719x (seized up)
4 Sound Bridge SB3 3115HT loudspeakers hung over the dancefloor (one working, rest dead)
2 EAW monitors hung over the stage (fried)
Misc. Crest 10" loudspeakers hung around the rest of the bar
Misc. Crown/QSC amplifiers (will be finding more as system needs)
What I would like to do is get the SR4719's reconed (all original drivers), there are enough amplifiers here to set the system up properly (all QSC EX/MX amps) to use for regular shows (there will be the occasional band in here), replace the drivers in the 3115HT's to set them up for dance music, and build 8 subs to supplement them (mostly hip hop/Top 40), with 4 ground stacked on each side of the stage.
So the main questions are...
1. What would you recommend to replace the components in the 3115HT's? (15" woofer and 1" exit HF), the cabinets are passive only, no bi-amp option, but I wouldn't mind replacing the crossovers and wiring them for bi-amp if that would help.
2. Has anyone tried building subs like the X1 subwoofer (http://speakerplans.com/index.php?id=x1) from Speakerplans? I would like to do 4 on each side in a 2x2 set up, maybe eventually do 6 a side if the need arises.
3. I'm not sure of the exact model of the stage monitors, but I know they are EAW wedges, but I can't find a model #, would be nice to have them working though. Any ideas? (Pictures below may be able to tell some clues)
Here are some pictures of the club...sorry for the poor pictures, not sure why. Dance floor is about 40ft each way. And yes, that is my QSC system being used for the dance floor temporarily. Tried to convince them to buy it and hang the 153's but no luck.
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy148/djiceman1575/1975062_10153915220780512_208536193_n_zpsa09c2264.jpg) (http://s786.photobucket.com/user/djiceman1575/media/1975062_10153915220780512_208536193_n_zpsa09c2264.jpg.html)
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy148/djiceman1575/1798700_10153915220725512_2099372380_n_zpsf659c386.jpg) (http://s786.photobucket.com/user/djiceman1575/media/1798700_10153915220725512_2099372380_n_zpsf659c386.jpg.html)
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy148/djiceman1575/1656033_10153915220675512_602008055_n_zps5edd3740.jpg) (http://s786.photobucket.com/user/djiceman1575/media/1656033_10153915220675512_602008055_n_zps5edd3740.jpg.html)
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As the title says, it's the usual cash-strapped nightclub/music venue, with a half working sound system. Here's what they have at the moment...
2 JBL SR4733x (working)
2 JBL SR4719x (seized up)
4 Sound Bridge SB3 3115HT loudspeakers hung over the dancefloor (one working, rest dead)
2 EAW monitors hung over the stage (fried)
Misc. Crest 10" loudspeakers hung around the rest of the bar
Misc. Crown/QSC amplifiers (will be finding more as system needs)
Not direct to your questions, but how do they use all the speakers? Are the JBLs used just for bands, etc. and the Sound Bridge just for DJs or are all of them used at the same time? Are Crest used as fill for the live system(s), for background music or for more than one purpose? If they don't have the money to fix or replace everything then maybe they could possibly consider simplifying the systems.
Since you seem to be trying to rebuild all the other speakers that are currently not working properly, why build new subs rather than repairing the SR4719X? I believe those used 2241HPL drivers and you can probably find recone kits or used 2241HPL drivers. You could also use new or used 2241H drivers as a direct replacement.
Have you tried contacting Sound Bridge to see what they recommend or offer for the 3115HTs? FWIW, the 3115HT apparently have a 10 year warranty so you might want to see if they are still under warranty.
I should also say that while they are fine for personal use, due to their having no warranty, no documentation, no support other than the installer, etc., I am not a fan of DIY products for installs. But if the Owner is willing to accept those conditions in exchange for any potential savings then that is their choice.
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As Brad said, need more info. I have no issue with DIY stuff in the right circumstances (it has been a major part of my business) if you have the proper tools and experience, but I'm not certain why you would need more subs than the SR 4719's.
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Stepping aside from the system design aspects I will ask a couple of business questions:
Why are they cash-strapped?
How long have the people you are working for owned the business, and have they been in the nightclub business before? What outcomes did they have?
Should you have your own inventory in the building when the landlord or state revenue department come to seize the property, what recourse is available to you?
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Why are they cash-strapped?
New owners, and they don't want to dish out any cash for the system, unfortunately...
How long have the people you are working for owned the business, and have they been in the nightclub business before? What outcomes did they have?
About 6 months now, and to be honest I'm not sure but from what I've seen I doubt it...
Should you have your own inventory in the building when the landlord or state revenue department come to seize the property, what recourse is available to you?
My stuff isn't staying in there throughout the week, I pull it out at the end of the night. However they aren't in that danger of losing the club, they are making money, but don't want to pay anything for the system to be fixed..
In other news, have some quotes back on recones for the 2241H's, and received a (very prompt) email back from Sound Bridge for components for the dance floor speakers. Going to get them to do that first then worry about extra stuff.
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they are making money, but don't want to pay anything for the system to be fixed..[/b]
And just how long do they expect to stay in business with a bad sound system?
I bet if the beer cooler broke-it would be fixed right away.
It is simply a matter of priorities and what they fell is important.
Many club owners feel that if the system is making some kind of noise-it is fine.
But the better clubs realize that people want good sound-in most cases. In others it really doesn't matter. It just depends on what the club wants to do and the type of people they want to have in there.
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And just how long do they expect to stay in business with a bad sound system?
I bet if the beer cooler broke-it would be fixed right away.
It is simply a matter of priorities and what they fell is important.
Many club owners feel that if the system is making some kind of noise-it is fine.
But the better clubs realize that people want good sound-in most cases. In others it really doesn't matter. It just depends on what the club wants to do and the type of people they want to have in there.
Half the crap at the bar doesn't work. No centralized POS system, they have to go to the next bar over to process credit card payments, etc. I'm trying to tell them to fix the system, sent them the prices for replacements, but I highly doubt they will...they can spend nearly $3000 a night for liquor, but not save about $100-$200 a week to fix the system...or the lights...but hey, it's not my bar.
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Half the crap at the bar doesn't work. No centralized POS system, they have to go to the next bar over to process credit card payments, etc. I'm trying to tell them to fix the system, sent them the prices for replacements, but I highly doubt they will...they can spend nearly $3000 a night for liquor, but not save about $100-$200 a week to fix the system...or the lights...but hey, it's not my bar.
Liquor is "on sale inventory". But if they're actually selling 95% of that, they should have enough cash flow to fix stuff. It sounds like there is a lot of inventory 'leakage'.
$3k in inventory cost should translate into sales of around $9k-$12k. My guess is there is significant overpouring or lots of free drinks.
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Liquor is "on sale inventory". But if they're actually selling 95% of that, they should have enough cash flow to fix stuff. It sounds like there is a lot of inventory 'leakage'.
$3k in inventory cost should translate into sales of around $9k-$12k. My guess is there is significant overpouring or lots of free drinks.
Visions of Jon Taffer walking in that club for a new Bar Rescue episode come to mind!
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Liquor is "on sale inventory". But if they're actually selling 95% of that, they should have enough cash flow to fix stuff. It sounds like there is a lot of inventory 'leakage'.
$3k in inventory cost should translate into sales of around $9k-$12k. My guess is there is significant overpouring or lots of free drinks.
Having worked in a club before as a consultant... definitely this. This. And depending on your market, $3K could even be $15K or more. I can personally pour a Vodka RedBull for about $1.25 to $1.50. And in Seattle, they sell for $7-$9.50, depending on where you go. Then there's my Long Island (love my LI.), same deal...
But oh well, such is life. As was stated, some people have interesting priorities in their business.
-Ray
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Visions of Jon Taffer walking in that club for a new Bar Rescue episode come to mind!
Believe me, I would LOVE to see it happen, just to see the one owner and Taffer butt heads. Censorship editor will be making millions. It's such a pity, they have a good idea and an excellent venue, it's an absolute goldmine, but it does sound like they don't want to pay for anything other than alcohol.
Lets put it this way, if I get the chance, I'd buy the bar and prioritize the right way.
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Believe me, I would LOVE to see it happen, just to see the one owner and Taffer butt heads. Censorship editor will be making millions. It's such a pity, they have a good idea and an excellent venue, it's an absolute goldmine, but it does sound like they don't want to pay for anything other than alcohol.
Lets put it this way, if I get the chance, I'd buy the bar and prioritize the right way.
You might do a google search, site limited to prosoundweb.com, for "Tom Reid" and "new club". Tom started from scratch and made it for a few months until he found out what a lying sack of shit his landlord was, and how some of his staff played fast and loose with the liquor. Ultimately it was his landlord's refusal to make building modifications to comply with life safety codes that led Tom to simply close the doors and walk away, 6 figures down.
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You might do a google search, site limited to prosoundweb.com, for "Tom Reid" and "new club". Tom started from scratch and made it for a few months until he found out what a lying sack of shit his landlord was, and how some of his staff played fast and loose with the liquor. Ultimately it was his landlord's refusal to make building modifications to comply with life safety codes that led Tom to simply close the doors and walk away, 6 figures down.
The current actual building owners used to operate the bar when it was a hot spot but got out of it and began leasing it so they could take care of other matters. But the last few "operators" haven't done a great job from what I have heard. I would hate to try and fix up a junk bar...this bar is in great shape, just needs more or less "modernization" and a few minor repairs. The bar is a goldmine, just needs someone with some actual business sense.
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The current actual building owners used to operate the bar when it was a hot spot but got out of it and began leasing it so they could take care of other matters. But the last few "operators" haven't done a great job from what I have heard. I would hate to try and fix up a junk bar...this bar is in great shape, just needs more or less "modernization" and a few minor repairs. The bar is a goldmine, just needs someone with some actual business sense.
I've worked in the nightclub industry for 12 years, and am a minority owner in a sports bar. Maybe their 'actual business sense' is telling them 'if it ain't broke…don't fix it'. Yes, the sound system may be 'broke' but it seems like they ARE trying to fix it, just really cheaply. But if the place is grossing 10k a week as you've implied by their liquor order, why should they spend 20k or more to upgrade the sound system? Do you think they'll see an increase in sales by upgrading the system? Or will they continue to sell the same amount of booze to the same people? Will those people even notice the improvements? Are the customers complaining about the sound? I'm all for spending money on the sound system, after all I'm a systems contractor, but sometimes you have to look at things from the owner's perspective.
A very close friend of mine owns one of the busiest bars in my city. It's absolutely packed every Friday and Saturday, and also has a good crowd during the week. I've seen his numbers, they do about $30-40k a week. His break-even point is $3k/week. He could install a Martin Audio or Danley system if he really wanted. But guess what he has…JBL JRX. And it sounds like garbage to me, but his customers don't care. They go there to drink, to dance, and to get laid. The music is loud, they can understand the words, and they can somewhat feel the bass. He is well over capacity every week, and literally could not sell any more booze than he currently does because he can't fit any more people through the door. It would make zero 'business sense' for him to upgrade.
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But guess what he has…JBL JRX. And it sounds like garbage to me, but his customers don't care. They go there to drink, to dance, and to get laid. The music is loud, they can understand the words, and they can somewhat feel the bass.
Reminds me of that old country music hit:
"Dim Wits, Thick Heads and Loud, Loud Noises"
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I've worked in the nightclub industry for 12 years, and am a minority owner in a sports bar. Maybe their 'actual business sense' is telling them 'if it ain't broke…don't fix it'.
Until it breaks, then it's an emergency on their part and they expect everybody else to drop everything to take care of them. Not to mention they'll want to do the cheapest fix possible, just setting things up to break again. And the cycle goes on and on and on...
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Simple.
Get paid UP FRONT to:
1) Fix the JBL's, and a minimum of 1 booth monitor and amp them properly
2) lose everything else
3) Invest in 1 main system DSP with limiters and set it tight (assume running at full limit all night so set accordingly so that speakers don't thermal)
4) walk away (and if done right you won't have to go back until the NEXT owners want an upgrade :-)
As the title says, it's the usual cash-strapped nightclub/music venue, with a half working sound system. Here's what they have at the moment...
2 JBL SR4733x (working)
2 JBL SR4719x (seized up)
4 Sound Bridge SB3 3115HT loudspeakers hung over the dancefloor (one working, rest dead)
2 EAW monitors hung over the stage (fried)
Misc. Crest 10" loudspeakers hung around the rest of the bar
Misc. Crown/QSC amplifiers (will be finding more as system needs)
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Why would they spend money on sound gear when you bring working stuff in?
What is in it for them?
You seem to be the one who wants to fix the sound system. What is your interest in it?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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I've worked in the nightclub industry for 12 years, and am a minority owner in a sports bar. Maybe their 'actual business sense' is telling them 'if it ain't broke…don't fix it'. Yes, the sound system may be 'broke' but it seems like they ARE trying to fix it, just really cheaply. But if the place is grossing 10k a week as you've implied by their liquor order, why should they spend 20k or more to upgrade the sound system? Do you think they'll see an increase in sales by upgrading the system? Or will they continue to sell the same amount of booze to the same people? Will those people even notice the improvements? Are the customers complaining about the sound? I'm all for spending money on the sound system, after all I'm a systems contractor, but sometimes you have to look at things from the owner's perspective.
A very close friend of mine owns one of the busiest bars in my city. It's absolutely packed every Friday and Saturday, and also has a good crowd during the week. I've seen his numbers, they do about $30-40k a week. His break-even point is $3k/week. He could install a Martin Audio or Danley system if he really wanted. But guess what he has…JBL JRX. And it sounds like garbage to me, but his customers don't care. They go there to drink, to dance, and to get laid. The music is loud, they can understand the words, and they can somewhat feel the bass. He is well over capacity every week, and literally could not sell any more booze than he currently does because he can't fit any more people through the door. It would make zero 'business sense' for him to upgrade.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
T H I S
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I've worked in the nightclub industry for 12 years, and am a minority owner in a sports bar. Maybe their 'actual business sense' is telling them 'if it ain't broke…don't fix it'. Yes, the sound system may be 'broke' but it seems like they ARE trying to fix it, just really cheaply. But if the place is grossing 10k a week as you've implied by their liquor order, why should they spend 20k or more to upgrade the sound system? Do you think they'll see an increase in sales by upgrading the system? Or will they continue to sell the same amount of booze to the same people? Will those people even notice the improvements? Are the customers complaining about the sound? I'm all for spending money on the sound system, after all I'm a systems contractor, but sometimes you have to look at things from the owner's perspective.
A very close friend of mine owns one of the busiest bars in my city. It's absolutely packed every Friday and Saturday, and also has a good crowd during the week. I've seen his numbers, they do about $30-40k a week. His break-even point is $3k/week. He could install a Martin Audio or Danley system if he really wanted. But guess what he has…JBL JRX. And it sounds like garbage to me, but his customers don't care. They go there to drink, to dance, and to get laid. The music is loud, they can understand the words, and they can somewhat feel the bass. He is well over capacity every week, and literally could not sell any more booze than he currently does because he can't fit any more people through the door. It would make zero 'business sense' for him to upgrade.
This is how many club owners look at this - if people come and buy drinks while the system is half broke, why bother fixing it? Until another club opens up with a decent sound system and all the customers split.
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Why would they spend money on sound gear when you bring working stuff in?
What is in it for them?
You seem to be the one who wants to fix the sound system. What is your interest in it?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Exactly
Either continue to provide a rental system each week for a decent rate or convince them to budget some money for repairs if their gear isnt cutting it or walk away. Never subsidize a bar with cheap or free gear when they are raking it in at the bar. Sounds like the owners as you said want to buy alcohol and not spend a dime on any other expenses and are prob just trying to cleanup and then bail.
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Exactly
Either continue to provide a rental system each week for a decent rate or convince them to budget some money for repairs if their gear isnt cutting it or walk away. Never subsidize a bar with cheap or free gear when they are raking it in at the bar. Sounds like the owners as you said want to buy alcohol and not spend a dime on any other expenses and are prob just trying to cleanup and then bail.
That was my gut feeling much earlier in this thread... However the new owners are the original owners, and they own the building. I doubt they'd bail because liens could be attached to the real estate but you never know...
What I don't see is a passion for the guest experience. The time to make improvements is when the money is flowing, rather than waiting until the business gets lousy and having no cash flow to make improvements with.
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No he said the building owners got out awhile ago and have been leasing it out and the current operators are new about 6 months and are probably new to the business. The comment of no proper POS system or going to the next door business to run Credit Cards just screams of fly by night operators just raking in the cash. Keep renting them equipment each week until you find the place shut down and ensure you are making good money too. They need to see what a night of no music would do to their cash flow to realize they need to spend some money on something other than alcohol.
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No he said the building owners got out awhile ago and have been leasing it out and the current operators are new about 6 months and are probably new to the business. The comment of no proper POS system or going to the next door business to run Credit Cards just screams of fly by night operators just raking in the cash. Keep renting them equipment each week until you find the place shut down and ensure you are making good money too. They need to see what a night of no music would do to their cash flow to realize they need to spend some money on something other than alcohol.
Yup, I just went back, re-read the whole thread.
They're pump and dump.
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Yup, I just went back, re-read the whole thread.
They're pump and dump.
yup, they are only there to make as much money as they can until they cant anymore. they probably also are hiding most of the sales as cash that they aren't reporting or paying tax on.
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Well I don't have to worry about it anymore, one of the owners hates me for no apparent reason, so I'm not wasting my time there. I'd rather it sit in the trailer than sit around for 6 hours a night for little pay. Hell, they had a show a month ago with an artist that cost $15k, didn't break even (even with a packed house) and now they booked a $28k artist with a full band that needs full production, and they didn't like our quote which gave them the minimum required backline and PA for the venue, and they called the owner of the company for the quote and bitched at him for no reason. They won't last...I hope I win the lottery soon, give that place a complete makeover.