ProSoundWeb Community

Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => The Basement => Topic started by: Jeff Bankston on February 17, 2014, 05:46:51 PM

Title: Hornless monitor
Post by: Jeff Bankston on February 17, 2014, 05:46:51 PM
i guess this isnt in a honkey tonk. its not wearing protection either, either.
Title: Re: Hornless monitor
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 17, 2014, 07:48:14 PM
i guess this isnt in a honkey tonk. its not wearing protection either, either.
I thought you said it didn't have a horn?  Maybe I am missing something.

Ok hornless, not HF driverless.
Title: Re: Hornless monitor
Post by: Jeff Bankston on February 17, 2014, 07:56:21 PM
I thought you said it didn't have a horn?  Maybe I am missing something.

Ok hornless, not HF driverless.
right , a cone for highs. and with no protecton
Title: Re: Hornless monitor
Post by: Kemper Watson on February 17, 2014, 08:17:48 PM
i guess this isnt in a honkey tonk. its not wearing protection either, either.

Homebrew..
Title: Re: Horn monitor
Post by: Mac Kerr on February 17, 2014, 08:19:57 PM
right , a cone for highs. and with no protecton

That looks like a JBL 2301 horn to me. The 2301 was a 90º conical pattern 1" throat horn. It was intended for under a 10' throw, like you might find in a wedge monitor.

Mac
Title: Re: Horn monitor
Post by: John Halliburton on February 17, 2014, 09:36:05 PM
That looks like a JBL 2301 horn to me. The 2301 was a 90º conical pattern 1" throat horn. It was intended for under a 10' throw, like you might find in a wedge monitor.

Mac

Here is an image from JBL literature that gives a better idea of this style of horn.  It's nickname is the potato masher.

(http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=7185&stc=1&d=1114896495)

Best regards,

John
Title: Re: Horn monitor
Post by: Mac Kerr on February 17, 2014, 10:00:11 PM
Here is an image from JBL literature that gives a better idea of this style of horn.  It's nickname is the potato masher.

(http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=7185&stc=1&d=1114896495)

Best regards,

John

It could be the 1217-1290, but it looks more like the 2301 to me. Here is the cutsheet from  the 2301. I don' know if there is even a difference other than the apparent front mount/rear mount difference.

Mac

Title: Re: Hornless monitor
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 18, 2014, 07:29:57 AM
Homebrew..
If you look back at old photos you will many  "variations" of this that all look "home brew".

Often the woofers were in a slant box-but there was some sort of HF attached to the top.

Often large Altec or JBL radial horns.

And this was at the top of the touring industry.

I remember seeing photos of Shynyrd in the mid 70s in which the monitors looked to be  3' tall overall.
Title: Re: Horn monitor
Post by: Tom Young on February 18, 2014, 07:35:28 AM
I agree this looks like the JBL "potato masher" horn with lens system.

This photo is of Richie Blackmore and Rainbow and probably is from the late 1970's. It is a Tasco Sound monitor rig. I spent 6 months working with him and them in 1978. I have blocked most of these memories out  ;-)

Back in the 1970's Tasco Sound (Great Britain) employed this set up but without the perforated plate lens. The result was a very narrow (conical) coverage pattern (for MF's and HF's) that was affectionately called the "brain dart". When you were on axis to the HF horn this thing hit you like an ice pick. As long as you kept your head in that very small sweet-spot, you had clear monitors. 

I never figured out why the horn in a separate enclosure was thought to be useful in stage monitor configurations. Perhaps they changed the vertical aim angle for specific listener positions ?

Note that JBL describes these as 90 or 60 degrees WITH the perf plates. Without them, the actual horn is somewhere around 20-degrees (conical).

When I was doing sound over a wide geographical area back then, I ran into others using the potato masher HF horns and also larger (4", as in 2441, 2482) drivers with slant-plate and bent-plate lenses. No one had great success with these (in live sound) and JBL dropped them from production after a few years. Having said that, Tasco did use them for at least a few years until something better came along.

Placing perforated plates or slanted/bent plates at the horn mouth (which was also at the surface of the front baffle) may have spread out the otherwise very narrow, focused sound but it also added a huge amount of reflected energy. We all (now) know why this isn't such a great idea.
Title: Re: Horn monitor
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 18, 2014, 07:35:40 AM
That looks like a JBL 2301 horn to me. The 2301 was a 90º conical pattern 1" throat horn. It was intended for under a 10' throw, like you might find in a wedge monitor.

Mac
Those were pretty popular in the 80s for monitors-I saw them a lot.  I have never actually used any-since all of my monitors were my build using "normal" horns.

So a question for the other 'ol timers-how well did they actually work?  The horn mouth is very small for the pattern-and I suspect there would be lots of interference.

I don't remember any other products that had that type of horn lens.  Maybe there is a reason.

Of course it is hard to compare the sound of something 30yrs ago to today-without having a current comparison.

I did do a repair job on a monitor that had the "horn" (if you can call it that) but not the "masher" part.

I thought it was a pretty worthless monitor since the pattern on the HF was so narrow if you moved 1' it was completely different.

I suspect the "masher" part widened the pattern-but at what sonic expense.

Just wondering since I have no direct experience with the whole product.
Title: Re: Horn monitor
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 18, 2014, 07:38:52 AM
I agree this looks like the JBL "potato masher" horn with lens system.

It is very strange to see someone using these now, as well as in this form-factor.

Back in the 1970's Tasco Sound (Great Britain) employed this set up but without the perforated plate lens. The result was a very narrow coverage pattern (for MF's and HF's) that was affectionately called the "brain dart". When you were on axis to the HF horn this thing hit you like an ice pick. As long as you kept your head in that very small sweet-spot, you had clear monitors. 

I never figured out why the horn in a separate enclosure was thought to be useful in stage monitor configurations.

Note that JBL describes these as 90 or 60 degrees WITH the perf plates. Without them, the actual horn is somewhere around 20-degrees (conical).

When I was doing sound over a wide geographical area back then, I ran into others using the potato masher HF horns and also larger (4", as in 2441, 2482) drivers with slant-plate and bent-plate lenses. No one had great success with these (in live sound) and JBL dropped them from production after a few years. Having said that, Tasco did use them for at least a few years until something better came along.

Placing perforated plates or slanted/bent plates at the horn mouth (which was also at the surface of the front baffle) may have spread out the otherwise very narrow, focused sound but it also added a huge amount of reflected energy. We all (now) know why this isn't such a great idea.

So I am (again) wondering who has resurrected this idea. And why  ;-)
I don't think that is a current pic.  It looks like Ritchie Blackmore back in the Deep Purple days.  I could be wrong however.
Title: Re: Horn monitor
Post by: Jeff Bankston on February 18, 2014, 08:08:07 AM
I don't think that is a current pic.  It looks like Ritchie Blackmore back in the Deep Purple days.  I could be wrong however.
Blackmores Rainbow mid 80's
Title: Re: Horn monitor
Post by: Tom Young on February 18, 2014, 09:26:16 AM
I don't think that is a current pic.  It looks like Ritchie Blackmore back in the Deep Purple days.  I could be wrong however.

It took me a while to realize that this is an old photograph, Ivan. It is Blackmore and is from the Rainbow days.
Title: Re: Horn monitor
Post by: Scott Helmke on February 18, 2014, 10:23:57 AM
It took me a while to realize that this is an old photograph, Ivan. It is Blackmore and is from the Rainbow days.

Almost everything was homebrew back in those days.
Title: Re: Horn monitor
Post by: Frank Koenig on February 18, 2014, 02:13:44 PM
As I recall there were folks who removed the annular perforated plates that constitute the acoustic lens which increases dispersion at higher frequencies. This arrangement they termed a "stinger". Looking back this might have been an appropriate name, and not in a good way. -F
Title: Re: Hornless monitor
Post by: Jay Barracato on February 18, 2014, 02:20:34 PM
Almost everything was homebrew back in those days.

I can think of a couple places in NYC where they are still in use today...

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Horn monitor
Post by: Tom Young on February 18, 2014, 02:23:09 PM
Almost everything was homebrew back in those days.

Yes. And they were actually more "works in progress", evolving at a fairly slow pace as we observed things and tried to change them.

Loudspeakers and systems are far further evolved now. As is our understanding of what is going on when we make sound with these systems.

But we still have a ways to go.
Title: Re: Horn monitor
Post by: Art Welter on February 19, 2014, 02:37:49 PM

So a question for the other 'ol timers-how well did they actually work?  The horn mouth is very small for the pattern-and I suspect there would be lots of interference.

I suspect the "masher" part widened the pattern-but at what sonic expense.

About 10 years ago I bought a collection of old JBL horns and drivers which included one potato masher.

Being a single, it didn't sell (plus they never did get a big following) four years ago I cut off the throat at the point where it fit a 2" exit and used it with a spare EV DH1A driver on top of what had been a drum sub.

The response is actually pretty amazing- there are no horns of that depth and size that load as low (312 Hz is the same level as 4-10 kHz) that I am aware of, though there is a huge "scoop" in the 2000 Hz range. The masher's loading also corrects the falling HF response of the driver.

The charts below are the raw response with the masher and driver in a 11.25" x 11.25" x 11.25" box, and the same with a passive crossover, which IIRC only uses a capacitor, coil and two resistors for the HP section.
Took a lot of parts juggling, never would have got it that smooth with what I knew in the late 1970's when these were (somewhat) popular.
The sensitivity works out so the nominal 16 ohm HF masher/crossover is about equal to a 15" which is about 98 dB midband.

The measurement distance was about 2 feet, the distance the potato masher is from a drummer's ear sitting on top of the angled 15" speaker cabinet.
As others have mentioned, these are "short throw" devices, the sound does not hang together too well outside a relatively small "bubble".

Hey Jeff- want to buy a drum monitor?

Art
Title: Re: Horn monitor
Post by: Jeff Bankston on February 19, 2014, 03:48:59 PM
About 10 years ago I bought a collection of old JBL horns and drivers which included one potato masher.

Being a single, it didn't sell (plus they never did get a big following) four years ago I cut off the throat at the point where it fit a 2" exit and used it with a spare EV DH1A driver on top of what had been a drum sub.

The response is actually pretty amazing- there are no horns of that depth and size that load as low (312 Hz is the same level as 4-10 kHz) that I am aware of, though there is a huge "scoop" in the 2000 Hz range. The masher's loading also corrects the falling HF response of the driver.

The charts below are the raw response with the masher and driver in a 11.25" x 11.25" x 11.25" box, and the same with a passive crossover, which IIRC only uses a capacitor, coil and two resistors for the HP section.
Took a lot of parts juggling, never would have got it that smooth with what I knew in the late 1970's when these were (somewhat) popular.
The sensitivity works out so the nominal 16 ohm HF masher/crossover is about equal to a 15" which is about 98 dB midband.

The measurement distance was about 2 feet, the distance the potato masher is from a drummer's ear sitting on top of the angled 15" speaker cabinet.
As others have mentioned, these are "short throw" devices, the sound does not hang together too well outside a relatively small "bubble".

Hey Jeff- want to buy a drum monitor?

Art
Not right now. i use headphone like drummer  Nigel Olsen. i aslo have 2 more of these in the foto just in case-a-dia i want to ditch the headphones. BUT and thats a BIGG BUTT i will keep you in mind if i decide to try out that horn. the thing with me is i dont keep my head in one spot whem playing, i move it from side to side and stuff. how large in diameter is the listening window of that horn ?
Title: It's Blackmore! Duck!
Post by: Russ Davis on February 19, 2014, 04:51:44 PM
Ritchie looks less sullen than usual here, but I'm curious as to what exactly is going on...  Is he accepting an upside-down beverage from a fan (and possibly using it as a leaky slide), or is he dumping his drink on the punters' heads?
Title: Re: Hornless monitor
Post by: Ned Ward on February 19, 2014, 05:14:26 PM
Possibly both...
Title: Re: Horn monitor
Post by: Bill Burford on February 19, 2014, 06:49:04 PM
I kinda like that idea.   I speculate I could turn down the stage and have a cleaner mix on stage / more separation.   
Title: Re: Horn monitor
Post by: Art Welter on February 20, 2014, 11:05:38 AM
The thing with me is i dont keep my head in one spot whem playing, i move it from side to side and stuff. how large in diameter is the listening window of that horn ?
The potato masher dispersion is roughly 90 degree conical, you would have to have a double jointed neck to get out of the coverage pattern  :).
Title: Re: Hornless monitor
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 20, 2014, 01:24:05 PM
i guess this isnt in a honkey tonk. its not wearing protection either, either.

I've had only one good eye for the last 17 days, so reading and such has been interesting, to say the least.

I keep reading the topic heading as "homeless monitor".  The mental picture is a bunch of beat to s*** wedges lined up on the sidewalk outside the Salvation Army center.

See you later...I'm hoping.
Title: Re: Hornless monitor
Post by: Thomas Harkin on February 20, 2014, 01:55:36 PM
I've had only one good eye for the last 17 days, so reading and such has been interesting, to say the least.

I keep reading the topic heading as "homeless monitor".  The mental picture is a bunch of beat to s*** wedges lined up on the sidewalk outside the Salvation Army center.

See you later...I'm hoping.
I have TWO good eyes, and I thought the same thing!!!   :-\
Title: Re: Hornless monitor
Post by: Jeff Bankston on February 20, 2014, 04:15:32 PM
I've had only one good eye for the last 17 days, so reading and such has been interesting, to say the least.

I keep reading the topic heading as "homeless monitor".  The mental picture is a bunch of beat to s*** wedges lined up on the sidewalk outside the Salvation Army center.

See you later...I'm hoping.
well , when i was in school i was a hall monitor. i got the s*** beat out of me by the other kids and was given several wedgies. after school i went to the Salvation army center so they could save my life.
Title: Re: Hornless monitor
Post by: Robert Abrams on July 06, 2022, 05:54:59 PM
I have four wedges with them, that I bought from the company I worked for and used the potato mashers for years. In the 80’s-90’s, they were on all our monitor wedge's and sounded great. I loved them. Today there are certainly better products on the market, but, I would not hesitate to break out the ones that I have and mix monitors with them. I have yet to use them with a digital console.
Title: Posting Rules
Post by: Mac Kerr on July 06, 2022, 06:38:38 PM
I have four wedges with them, that I bought from the company I worked for and used the potato mashers for years. In the 80’s-90’s, they were on all our monitor wedge's and sounded great. I loved them. Today there are certainly better products on the market, but, I would not hesitate to break out the ones that I have and mix monitors with them. I have yet to use them with a digital console.

Please go to your profile and change your name to your full name as required by the posting rules.

Mac
Title: Re: Potato masher monitors
Post by: Art Welter on July 09, 2022, 08:21:40 PM
I have four wedges with them, that I bought from the company I worked for and used the potato mashers for years.
Hi Robert,

What company did you work for back then?
Did they build the wedges, or if not, do you recall who did?

Art