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Title: Setting Main and Monitor EQ
Post by: Tommy Peel on January 04, 2013, 11:28:44 AM
Yesterday I installed a new x32 mixer in my church; I haven't been able to find a good method for setting up the main and monitor equalizers. If someone can either give me some instructions on doing it or direct me to a website that has the instructions I'd appreciate it.

The equipment I have access to is a Macbook Pro(running either OSX or Windows), the x32 mixer, an audio interface, a couple of CAD small diaphragm condenser mics(from a drum mic set), a peavey small diaphragm condenser(can't remember the model but it's being used to mic a piano), various dynamic mics(SM58 and some others), an iPad, and anAndroid phone.

I plan on using the x32's built-in GEQ(or maybe the TrueEQ; which is better?) the church had an analog board previously and was using an outboard EQ(which I don't know if it was setup properly or not but it hadn't been changed in many years) the main speakers are some sort of old Peavey's(they are wood grain on the sides and have black cloth on the front; they also say Peavey International on some small logos on the front) that I'm pretty sure have a single 15+horn. They are setup in a right/left configuration and seem to have fairly good coverage. My main concern right now is that they sounded "muddy" when I played music through them yesterday(mp3 played from my phone through an aux input on the mixer).

The monitors are some fairly new Yamahas and they sounded pretty good with the same music I had playing through the mains.

The typical music during church is piano+song leader+choir and then some special music which is usually someone singing to a CD or piano or acapella so the x32 is overkill for most things there although there will be times where we run a full band through the system.

I know the best solution is to have someone come in and tune the system but, I'm trying to get it somewhat tuned by Sunday for church. We may in the future replace the main speakers; in that case the system will be tuned by a pro.

Thanks for the help,
Tommy
Title: Re: Setting Main and Monitor EQ
Post by: Scott Wagner on January 04, 2013, 01:54:57 PM
Yesterday I installed a new x32 mixer in my church; I haven't been able to find a good method for setting up the main and monitor equalizers. If someone can either give me some instructions on doing it or direct me to a website that has the instructions I'd appreciate it.

The equipment I have access to is a Macbook Pro(running either OSX or Windows), the x32 mixer, an audio interface, a couple of CAD small diaphragm condenser mics(from a drum mic set), a peavey small diaphragm condenser(can't remember the model but it's being used to mic a piano), various dynamic mics(SM58 and some others), an iPad, and anAndroid phone.

I plan on using the x32's built-in GEQ(or maybe the TrueEQ; which is better?) the church had an analog board previously and was using an outboard EQ(which I don't know if it was setup properly or not but it hadn't been changed in many years) the main speakers are some sort of old Peavey's(they are wood grain on the sides and have black cloth on the front; they also say Peavey International on some small logos on the front) that I'm pretty sure have a single 15+horn. They are setup in a right/left configuration and seem to have fairly good coverage. My main concern right now is that they sounded "muddy" when I played music through them yesterday(mp3 played from my phone through an aux input on the mixer).

The monitors are some fairly new Yamahas and they sounded pretty good with the same music I had playing through the mains.

The typical music during church is piano+song leader+choir and then some special music which is usually someone singing to a CD or piano or acapella so the x32 is overkill for most things there although there will be times where we run a full band through the system.

I know the best solution is to have someone come in and tune the system but, I'm trying to get it somewhat tuned by Sunday for church. We may in the future replace the main speakers; in that case the system will be tuned by a pro.

Thanks for the help,
Tommy
First, forget the GEQ and use the 6 band full parametrics on each output.  You get a lot more control with the parametric EQs.  Second, you don't need instructions for tuning the system.  Use your ears and PEQ (and some knob-turning time).  Just get it to sound acceptable with your music of choice.  Hint: use cuts instead of boosts.  Keep in mind that not all sound issues can be fixed with EQ.  If you find yourself requiring huge cuts to make things sound good, you might want to think about your speaker deployment.  Good luck.
Title: Re: Setting Main and Monitor EQ
Post by: Tommy Peel on January 04, 2013, 02:17:22 PM
First, forget the GEQ and use the 6 band full parametrics on each output.  You get a lot more control with the parametric EQs.  Second, you don't need instructions for tuning the system.  Use your ears and PEQ (and some knob-turning time).  Just get it to sound acceptable with your music of choice.  Hint: use cuts instead of boosts.  Keep in mind that not all sound issues can be fixed with EQ.  If you find yourself requiring huge cuts to make things sound good, you might want to think about your speaker deployment.  Good luck.

That's good to know, I'll probably have an easier time adjusting the parametric because I'm accustomed to using it(in channel strip's swept mids). I'll take a CD(hopefully with better quality than the mp3s on my phone/ipad) up there before Sunday and work on tuning it.

Thanks,
Tommy
Title: Re: Setting Main and Monitor EQ
Post by: Brad Weber on January 04, 2013, 02:25:36 PM
I plan on using the x32's built-in GEQ(or maybe the TrueEQ; which is better?) the church had an analog board previously and was using an outboard EQ(which I don't know if it was setup properly or not but it hadn't been changed in many years) the main speakers are some sort of old Peavey's(they are wood grain on the sides and have black cloth on the front; they also say Peavey International on some small logos on the front) that I'm pretty sure have a single 15+horn. They are setup in a right/left configuration and seem to have fairly good coverage. My main concern right now is that they sounded "muddy" when I played music through them yesterday(mp3 played from my phone through an aux input on the mixer).
Unless you have confirmed that the existing equalizers are problematic then why not continue to use them for tuning the speaker system and leave the mixer's equalization for creative use?
Title: Re: Setting Main and Monitor EQ
Post by: Tommy Peel on January 04, 2013, 03:49:38 PM
Unless you have confirmed that the existing equalizers are problematic then why not continue to use them for tuning the speaker system and leave the mixer's equalization for creative use?

We've been having some issues with the main GEQ for a while now, so I was trying to eliminate it from the signal chain. Apparently it had been causing some cutouts in audio; I don't run sound there most of the time(although I will be for the foreseeable future till I get the guy who was doing it up to speed). I may try to transfer some of the settings from the old GEQ to the one in the mixer, but after what Scott said I'll probably try using just try setting the parametric EQ and see how it sounds.
Title: Re: Setting Main and Monitor EQ
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 04, 2013, 03:52:16 PM

the main speakers are some sort of old Peavey's(they are wood grain on the sides and have black cloth on the front; they also say Peavey International on some small logos on the front) that I'm pretty sure have a single 15+horn. They are setup in a right/left configuration and seem to have fairly good coverage. My main concern right now is that they sounded "muddy" when I played music through them yesterday(mp3 played from my phone through an aux input on the mixer).



I often find that older speakers sounding "muddy" are doing so because they've been used for a long time with no maintenance and likely some abuse such as plugging/unplugging mics with phantom power enabled, improper off/on sequence and the like.  The wear and tear on the HF section results in degraded HF output. 

Before going to a lot of trouble and possible expense, you should verify that the existing speakers are or are not in good working order.  No use painting a rusty carcass, so to speak.
Title: Re: Setting Main and Monitor EQ
Post by: Jared Koopman on January 04, 2013, 04:04:43 PM
Yesterday I installed a new x32 mixer in my church; I haven't been able to find a good method for setting up the main and monitor equalizers. If someone can either give me some instructions on doing it or direct me to a website that has the instructions I'd appreciate it.

The equipment I have access to is a Macbook Pro(running either OSX or Windows), the x32 mixer, an audio interface, a couple of CAD small diaphragm condenser mics(from a drum mic set), a peavey small diaphragm condenser(can't remember the model but it's being used to mic a piano), various dynamic mics(SM58 and some others), an iPad, and anAndroid phone.

I plan on using the x32's built-in GEQ(or maybe the TrueEQ; which is better?) the church had an analog board previously and was using an outboard EQ(which I don't know if it was setup properly or not but it hadn't been changed in many years) the main speakers are some sort of old Peavey's(they are wood grain on the sides and have black cloth on the front; they also say Peavey International on some small logos on the front) that I'm pretty sure have a single 15+horn. They are setup in a right/left configuration and seem to have fairly good coverage. My main concern right now is that they sounded "muddy" when I played music through them yesterday(mp3 played from my phone through an aux input on the mixer).

The monitors are some fairly new Yamahas and they sounded pretty good with the same music I had playing through the mains.

The typical music during church is piano+song leader+choir and then some special music which is usually someone singing to a CD or piano or acapella so the x32 is overkill for most things there although there will be times where we run a full band through the system.

I know the best solution is to have someone come in and tune the system but, I'm trying to get it somewhat tuned by Sunday for church. We may in the future replace the main speakers; in that case the system will be tuned by a pro.

Thanks for the help,
Tommy

You have a couple of options....

You can insert one of the EQ (or TrueEQ) onto the Mains and Monitors. The downside to this is it uses up your fx slots for other creative uses. But if you must, you must. The TrueEQ supposedly smooths out the curve, but I have no way of varifying if that sounds better or not. Try it and see.

Or you can use the parametric EQ as mentioned. You really shouldn't need to do more then 6 cuts so the PEQ should work just fine. This is what I do for our monitors. Our mains we run through an EV DC-ONE which has all that built into it and was preset by the installer.

Dont forget to check and see if your ipod had some sort of EQ turned on that could be affecting the "muddy" sound.

Jared
Title: Re: Setting Main and Monitor EQ
Post by: Tommy Peel on January 04, 2013, 04:15:09 PM
I often find that older speakers sounding "muddy" are doing so because they've been used for a long time with no maintenance and likely some abuse such as plugging/unplugging mics with phantom power enabled, improper off/on sequence and the like.  The wear and tear on the HF section results in degraded HF output. 

Before going to a lot of trouble and possible expense, you should verify that the existing speakers are or are not in good working order.  No use painting a rusty carcass, so to speak.

You may have hit the nail right on the head; I know the speakers are at least 15-20 years old and have most likely never been off their mounts. I'll try to get the system EQ'd to where it sounds better and if the speakers are shot I'll talk to the pastor about getting some new ones; they definitely want to get the system sounding better so doubt new speakers are out of the question. Just having a new sound board has made a huge improvement because the old one was regularly cutting out on various channels and no one dared to push a "mute" button for fear that it would never unmute.
Title: Re: Setting Main and Monitor EQ
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 04, 2013, 04:32:48 PM
You may have hit the nail right on the head; I know the speakers are at least 15-20 years old and have most likely never been off their mounts. I'll try to get the system EQ'd to where it sounds better and if the speakers are shot I'll talk to the pastor about getting some new ones; they definitely want to get the system sounding better so doubt new speakers are out of the question. Just having a new sound board has made a huge improvement because the old one was regularly cutting out on various channels and no one dared to push a "mute" button for fear that it would never unmute.

Remove all EQ from the signal chain.  If you have a small mixer or mixpad, connect it directly to the power amp and playback some material through the speakers.  If they do not have enough HF, you need to have the speakers repaired (cheapest) or replaced.
Title: Re: Setting Main and Monitor EQ
Post by: Brad Weber on January 05, 2013, 06:20:01 AM
We've been having some issues with the main GEQ for a while now, so I was trying to eliminate it from the signal chain. Apparently it had been causing some cutouts in audio; I don't run sound there most of the time(although I will be for the foreseeable future till I get the guy who was doing it up to speed).
For installed systems I'm a fan of separating the speaker system processing, which I believe should be set and then not be routinely adjusted, from the tools available for operators to routinely use and removing the existing equalizer goes against that concept.  Given your comments regarding the old mixer, have you verified that the apparent cutouts are due to the existing equalizers?
Title: Re: Setting Main and Monitor EQ
Post by: Tommy Peel on January 06, 2013, 05:28:41 PM
Thought I'd update this topic, I worked on the EQ last night and first set the mixer's EQ to closely match the original EQ(I would have connected the original EQ but I didn't have the proper cables to make the connection). This didn't sound very good so I played some CDs through the system and adjusted the main mix parametric EQ till it sounded ok. I then bypassed that and tried the TrueEQ and decided that it sounded better. I'm pretty sure that the main speaker's HF drivers aren't in very good shape because I had to boost many of the high and upper mids to get decent sound.

I'm not concerned about people "messing with" the EQ settings on the mixer so whether the processing is separate or not isn't much of a concern. The person who primarily runs the system is pretty overwhelmed with the whole digital mixer thing so I doubt he'll ever be doing much more that basic mixing(pushing the faders/mute buttons and minor channel EQ settings).

I'm sure at some point in the future that the church will get new speakers installed and when that occurs they'll probably be hiring a professional to recommend the proper speakers, install the system, and tune whatever speaker processing is installed then.

Thanks for all of the advise.

P.S.
Really liking the x32; it sounds great and has been easy to figure out so far. I'm looking forward to the next time my band plays a youth rally there so I can really put it through it's paces with a full band.
Title: Re: Setting Main and Monitor EQ
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 06, 2013, 05:35:13 PM
Thought I'd update this topic, I worked on the EQ last night and first set the mixer's EQ to closely match the original EQ(I would have connected the original EQ but I didn't have the proper cables to make the connection). This didn't sound very good so I played some CDs through the system and adjusted the main mix parametric EQ till it sounded ok. I then bypassed that and tried the TrueEQ and decided that it sounded better. I'm pretty sure that the main speaker's HF drivers aren't in very good shape because I had to boost many of the high and upper mids to get decent sound.

I'm not concerned about people "messing with" the EQ settings on the mixer so whether the processing is separate or not isn't much of a concern. The person who primarily runs the system is pretty overwhelmed with the whole digital mixer thing so I doubt he'll ever be doing much more that basic mixing(pushing the faders/mute buttons and minor channel EQ settings).

I'm sure at some point in the future that the church will get new speakers installed and when that occurs they'll probably be hiring a professional to recommend the proper speakers, install the system, and tune whatever speaker processing is installed then.

Thanks for all of the advise.

P.S.
Really liking the x32; it sounds great and has been easy to figure out so far. I'm looking forward to the next time my band plays a youth rally there so I can really put it through it's paces with a full band.

Just get your speakers evaluated.  There's a good chance that they are repairable at a significant cost saving.  Any reputable speaker repair house will tell you if they're worth the trouble.  Knowing the make and model would help.  Can you provide that info?
Title: Re: Setting Main and Monitor EQ
Post by: Tommy Peel on January 06, 2013, 06:02:44 PM
Just get your speakers evaluated.  There's a good chance that they are repairable at a significant cost saving.  Any reputable speaker repair house will tell you if they're worth the trouble.  Knowing the make and model would help.  Can you provide that info?

I'll post it here if I get a chance to look at the model tag. They're 8+ ft off of the floor and I'll have to get a ladder to get where I can see the tag. I know they're Peavey and that they have wood grain cabinets and black cloth fronts. I'd estimate they're 15-20+ years old and big enough to contain a 15 inch speaker. I'll try to get the specifics and post them sometime.
Title: Re: Setting Main and Monitor EQ
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 06, 2013, 07:12:58 PM
I'll post it here if I get a chance to look at the model tag. They're 8+ ft off of the floor and I'll have to get a ladder to get where I can see the tag. I know they're Peavey and that they have wood grain cabinets and black cloth fronts. I'd estimate they're 15-20+ years old and big enough to contain a 15 inch speaker. I'll try to get the specifics and post them sometime.

Did you ever bother to try bypassing everything and putting a signal directly into the amp to see if the HF was still muddy?
Title: Re: Re: Setting Main and Monitor EQ
Post by: Tommy Peel on January 06, 2013, 08:35:02 PM
Did you ever bother to try bypassing everything and putting a signal directly into the amp to see if the HF was still muddy?

I didn't have the right cables with me to run it direct to the amp but running from CD player > x32 > amp > speakers it sounds a little muddy. I don't think the HF is completely blown but it may be a little weak. I was able to EQ it out pretty easily do that it sounds good enough.

Sent from my Milestone X using Tapatalk 2
Title: Re: Re: Setting Main and Monitor EQ
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 06, 2013, 09:05:55 PM
I didn't have the right cables with me to run it direct to the amp but running from CD player > x32 > amp > speakers it sounds a little muddy. I don't think the HF is completely blown but it may be a little weak. I was able to EQ it out pretty easily do that it sounds good enough.

Sent from my Milestone X using Tapatalk 2

That should be direct enough. 

It would also be helpful to know how the speakers are deployed, their height, distance between, distance to walls/ceilings/floors, angle and tweeter on top or on the bottom.....and probably a few things I forget right now.  The HF will be the portion of the sound spectrum which is easiest to make directional, so even if the HF drivers are slightly toasted, some of the mud may just be off-axis response accentuated by the aiming of the boxes.
Title: Re: Setting Main and Monitor EQ
Post by: John Woodfield on January 06, 2013, 09:25:57 PM
I've fixed the HF in those boxes before. Very simple. Remove the front cover which just pulls off. Remove the woofer. There is a large magnet on the back of the horn which unscrews. There are a few screws holding the HF driver on to the magnet. Replacements are readily available for about $50.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Setting Main and Monitor EQ
Post by: Tommy Peel on January 06, 2013, 09:37:53 PM
That should be direct enough. 

It would also be helpful to know how the speakers are deployed, their height, distance between, distance to walls/ceilings/floors, angle and tweeter on top or on the bottom.....and probably a few things I forget right now.  The HF will be the portion of the sound spectrum which is easiest to make directional, so even if the HF drivers are slightly toasted, some of the mud may just be off-axis response accentuated by the aiming of the boxes.

I'll take and post a picture next time I'm in the building. As far as whether the HF is top or bottom, I don't know; the cloth is completely opaque and they are to high to get a close look.

The speakers are 8-10 feet off of the ground sitting on wall mounts that are bolted to the walls and positioned to the left and right of the stage. I would estimate the room is close to 100ft wide and maybe twice that long. The walls are wood and the floor is carpet and there are padded pews for seating. The speakers are 15-20ft from the outside walls. They are angled in slightly and the coverage is fairly even.

I'll try to take some pics when I get a chance and I'll dig through some old pics on the computer to see if I have any that show the auditorium. Also I'll try to get the model number off of the speakers which should allow me to look online for some more info on the speakers.

Sent from my Milestone X using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: Re: Setting Main and Monitor EQ
Post by: Tommy Peel on January 06, 2013, 09:41:32 PM
I've fixed the HF in those boxes before. Very simple. Remove the front cover which just pulls off. Remove the woofer. There is a large magnet on the back of the horn which unscrews. There are a few screws holding the HF driver on to the magnet. Replacements are readily available for about $50.

Thanks, I'm glad someone recognized those speakers. I'll definately look into repairing them. What is your opinion on those speakers? How do they compare to more modern speakers?

Sent from my Milestone X using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: Re: Setting Main and Monitor EQ
Post by: John Woodfield on January 06, 2013, 11:23:04 PM
Thanks, I'm glad someone recognized those speakers. I'll definately look into repairing them. What is your opinion on those speakers? How do they compare to more modern speakers?

Sent from my Milestone X using Tapatalk 2

I still have a pair in use. They were from the Peavey Mark IV era and are awesome. Some of the best sounding two way boxes I've ever heard. 15" black widows in em. Usually the HF driver has the date written in sharpie on it. Mine are from '86
Title: Re: Setting Main and Monitor EQ
Post by: Brad Weber on January 07, 2013, 07:51:08 AM
I'm pretty sure that the main speaker's HF drivers aren't in very good shape because I had to boost many of the high and upper mids to get decent sound.
How much boost and how many bands?  You should generally be cutting more than you boost.
 
I don't think it is possible to definitively identify the speakers from the very limited information provided, but if they are 25 or so years old and have not been serviced then they very well may have reached the end of their life without some repairs.  However, if they are a two way box with a 15" woofer then it would usually be pretty obvious if a HF driver or crossover was toast and that would typically not be something you could correct with EQ.  And while it sound unlikely, you may want to make sure you don't have something like a biamped system where all you really need to do is turn up the HF amplifier or turn down the LF amp or any other processing in the system.
 
As far as repairing or replacing the speakers, it they are more than a few years old then it is pretty common for a church's needs and expectations related to audio to have changed.  So you might need to assess not only if the speakers are performing properly but also if they are capable of serving the church's current and near future needs and goals.  If they can provide acceptable output, response, coverage, intelligibility, etc. then at least looking at repairs may make sense, otherwise it may be more effective to look at replacing them.
 
I'm not concerned about people "messing with" the EQ settings on the mixer so whether the processing is separate or not isn't much of a concern. The person who primarily runs the system is pretty overwhelmed with the whole digital mixer thing so I doubt he'll ever be doing much more that basic mixing(pushing the faders/mute buttons and minor channel EQ settings)
Why would a church purchase a mixer that their primary operator cannot operate effectively?  And if there are overriding reasons to do so, wouldn't it then be a priority to help that person become comfortable with operating the mixer?
 
I suggest you save whatever you come up with to multiple presets on the mixer since it sounds like the settings and even the base preset scene could be inadvertently changed or overwritten.
Title: Re: Setting Main and Monitor EQ
Post by: Tommy Peel on January 07, 2013, 10:26:06 AM
How much boost and how many bands?  You should generally be cutting more than you boost.

I boosted(slightly; maybe +2-3dB max) maybe 4-6 bands(mostly in the upper mid to high range but I think I boosted 1-2 in the low end too) and cut(slightly) that many or maybe a few more. Some of the people I talked to after church yesterday though it sounded better and I had no complaints; the music I played when tuning the system sounded noticeably clearer(more "normal") with the adjustments when enabling and bypassing the EQ after I adjusted it.


I don't think it is possible to definitively identify the speakers from the very limited information provided, but if they are 25 or so years old and have not been serviced then they very well may have reached the end of their life without some repairs.  However, if they are a two way box with a 15" woofer then it would usually be pretty obvious if a HF driver or crossover was toast and that would typically not be something you could correct with EQ.  And while it sound unlikely, you may want to make sure you don't have something like a biamped system where all you really need to do is turn up the HF amplifier or turn down the LF amp or any other processing in the system.

 My best guess as to their age is 20 years give or take a couple(based on them being new when the sanctuary was built). I know they aren't biamped; there is a single 1/4 inch (TR) cable going from a jack on the wall to the speaker. Also there are only 2 power amps; one for the stereo mains and one for the 2 monitor channels being used.

As far as repairing or replacing the speakers, it they are more than a few years old then it is pretty common for a church's needs and expectations related to audio to have changed.  So you might need to assess not only if the speakers are performing properly but also if they are capable of serving the church's current and near future needs and goals.  If they can provide acceptable output, response, coverage, intelligibility, etc. then at least looking at repairs may make sense, otherwise it may be more effective to look at replacing them.

Right now the speakers meet the needs of the church fairly well and I'm reluctant to recommend new ones because in another 5 or so years it's possible that the church could go to a more contemporary type worship service(right now it's very traditional with only a piano). If/when this happens there will be a number of changes that need to be made to the system and most likely a professional would be called in to upgrade the system.

Why would a church purchase a mixer that their primary operator cannot operate effectively?  And if there are overriding reasons to do so, wouldn't it then be a priority to help that person become comfortable with operating the mixer?
 
I suggest you save whatever you come up with to multiple presets on the mixer since it sounds like the settings and even the base preset scene could be inadvertently changed or overwritten.

I'm sure with some practice and guidance he'll be able to operate the system well enough for most situations. I've shown him how to mute/unmute channels, select a channel and adjust the monitor volume and channel EQ. I set the CD/Tape/iPod inputs to where they're controlled by DCA 1 so he won't have to "page over" to them on the aux input page. We're only using maybe 8-12 inputs max during a typical service(and not all at the same time). And yes I realize that the x32 is overkill for this but they wanted "room to grow" so it made sense.

Thanks for the advise,
Tommy
Title: yep,
Post by: Nick Simon on January 07, 2013, 11:08:16 AM
been right where you are... at my previous church.