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Title: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: nicklang on March 30, 2014, 09:01:01 PM
Hello.....

So okay at the moment I'm sound teching for a gigging Rock Covers Band......we're very busy at least two gigs per week.....we are also VERY loud......

at the moment I run three SRM450V2's as tops and two SRM1801 subwoofers.....

....I mic most of the drum kit.....snare, high tom, mid tom, floor tom and kick......sometimes the hats/crashes and riders. Also put the bass guitar through the PA too (as well as his double cab)......and vocals...one lead vocal and two backing......our guitarist has an incredible amp so we only mic the amp occasionally......

Problem is I've had the Mackie SRM450V2's for just over a year now....and I've had two fail.....it's got to the point I'm concerned they're gonna fail....for no reason......also I'm starting to notice that the 450's are struggling to give me enough volume.......

We play everything from small pubs to large(ish) halls.....outdoors and indoors....

Now I don't have an issue with the subs....they seem to be coping well......it's the tops that I'm not so impressed with......looking at replacing with something that can give me more volume and good clarity at high volume.......

Obviously budget does come into it as I aint made of money......lol......was thinking about £500 ish ($800) each speaker give or take........

Was looking at something like the EV ELX12p or the RCF ART 712A or perhaps something similar????.......I'm in the UK so not all brands and models are availlable to me .......but I'm really looking for some recommendations????

Cheers
Nick
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 30, 2014, 09:39:06 PM
My recommendations?  Make sound an additive process.  Have the band play without PA, bring up vocal monitors, THEN bring up in the PA mix the things you can't hear, starting with getting vocals on top. 

Outdoors simply requires more PA than you have.  Really.

Your Mackies are dying because they've been worked hard.  It's their time.  I'm not sure if the EV or RCF will be a sideways move or an improvement, but my experience has been that most speakers you can put on a stick:  Not Enough Rig for the Gig® for a rock band with pounding drummer and guitar amps set on "stun".
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Craig Hamilton on March 30, 2014, 10:49:15 PM
Hello.....

So okay at the moment I'm sound teching for a gigging Rock Covers Band......we're very busy at least two gigs per week.....we are also VERY loud......

at the moment I run three SRM450V2's as tops and two SRM1801 subwoofers.....

....I mic most of the drum kit.....snare, high tom, mid tom, floor tom and kick......sometimes the hats/crashes and riders. Also put the bass guitar through the PA too (as well as his double cab)......and vocals...one lead vocal and two backing......our guitarist has an incredible amp so we only mic the amp occasionally......

Problem is I've had the Mackie SRM450V2's for just over a year now....and I've had two fail.....it's got to the point I'm concerned they're gonna fail....for no reason......also I'm starting to notice that the 450's are struggling to give me enough volume.......

We play everything from small pubs to large(ish) halls.....outdoors and indoors....

Now I don't have an issue with the subs....they seem to be coping well......it's the tops that I'm not so impressed with......looking at replacing with something that can give me more volume and good clarity at high volume.......

Obviously budget does come into it as I aint made of money......lol......was thinking about £500 ish ($800) each speaker give or take........

Was looking at something like the EV ELX12p or the RCF ART 712A or perhaps something similar????.......I'm in the UK so not all brands and models are availlable to me .......but I'm really looking for some recommendations????

Cheers
Nick

Did i read that right, you are running 3 tops per side overlapped? If you are and not arraying them to cover a wide area then you are simply doing it wrong. Use one cabinet per area you want to cover. Sounds like you need one pair of JBL STX835 cabinets. Or another popular choice the SRX725 if you want to look for used. My only other thought would be a set of QSC KW153 if they can be loud enough, but dont overlap multiples to try to get louder.
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on March 30, 2014, 11:20:34 PM


Obviously budget does come into it as I aint made of money......lol......was thinking about £500 ish ($800) each speaker give or take........

Was looking at something like the EV ELX12p or the RCF ART 712A or perhaps something similar????.......I'm in the UK so not all brands and models are availlable to me .......but I'm really looking for some recommendations????

The ELX is a sideways move from the Mackie, it's got a bit more power but the 12" driver isn't as sensitive so overall it's not capable of any more SPL. The RCF 712 or a Yamaha DXR will produce a little more output but I don't know if its enough to justify the purchase, I think you're gonna have to stretch your budget and step up to a Yamaha DSR 112 or similar.
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: nicklang on March 31, 2014, 02:40:46 AM
Did i read that right, you are running 3 tops per side overlapped?

No, it's one SRM450 per side and one in the middle......obviously at the smaller venues we just use the two SRM450's.....

Don't get me wrong....at gig's we always sound loud....and pretty clear....and I try not to push them too had...never to the point of distortion.....in fact we always get complemented for how good we sound....but to me (and it could be just me).....I could just do with that extra 15-20% more volume at some venues......just to pick the whole mix out........most other people don't notice.....they all think it sounds great.....

I always start the band dry.....no PA...and bring in the individual instruments.....usually start with the drummer as he's the loudest unmic-ed.......We don't mic the whole kit at every venue obviously.........but sometimes we struggle in a small room.....I guess due to room dynamics rather than "not enough PA"......and sometimes I find the Mackie tops just don't seem to be as clear and as punchy as I would like?????
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Scott Bolt on March 31, 2014, 07:56:46 AM
Did i read that right, you are running 3 tops per side overlapped?

No, it's one SRM450 per side and one in the middle......obviously at the smaller venues we just use the two SRM450's.....

Don't get me wrong....at gig's we always sound loud....and pretty clear....and I try not to push them too had...never to the point of distortion.....in fact we always get complemented for how good we sound....but to me (and it could be just me).....I could just do with that extra 15-20% more volume at some venues......just to pick the whole mix out........most other people don't notice.....they all think it sounds great.....

I always start the band dry.....no PA...and bring in the individual instruments.....usually start with the drummer as he's the loudest unmic-ed.......We don't mic the whole kit at every venue obviously.........but sometimes we struggle in a small room.....I guess due to room dynamics rather than "not enough PA"......and sometimes I find the Mackie tops just don't seem to be as clear and as punchy as I would like?????
The DSR112's are a step up and are built like a tank.  They also have a 7 year warranty.
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Steve Garris on March 31, 2014, 03:23:29 PM
If your experience goes anything like mine, those 1801's will eventually fail as well. Same situation, loud band in small rooms. We got about 2 years out of the 1801's. They both quit working within a month of each other. I went to a JBL PRX system for better sound overall.
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: nicklang on March 31, 2014, 04:05:45 PM
Yeah cheers guys......I could stretch to a pair of the Yamaha's at a push :D been looking at those DSR112's today.....they look tidy.....pretty sure we wont get a 7 year warranty here in the UK though....all the sites I've looked at seem to be offering either 2 or 3 years depending.....

Looking on the bright side....hoping that the 1801's will last a bit longer than that .....but suspect you're probably right :(

I'm gonna start to price up some of those DSR's tomorrow :D
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Guy Graham on March 31, 2014, 04:50:20 PM
Yeah cheers guys......I could stretch to a pair of the Yamaha's at a push :D been looking at those DSR112's today.....they look tidy.....pretty sure we wont get a 7 year warranty here in the UK though....all the sites I've looked at seem to be offering either 2 or 3 years depending.....

Looking on the bright side....hoping that the 1801's will last a bit longer than that .....but suspect you're probably right :(

I'm gonna start to price up some of those DSR's tomorrow :D

I appreciate this is a bit more than your stated budget, but Thomann has b-stock EV ZXA5 (90°) reduced to £990 right now.

The Yamahas are around £850 each, so if you were able to stretch your budget, the EVs are a good deal if you want a louder speaker that also sounds a lot nicer than the Mackies you're replacing.

I haven't heard those Yamahas myself yet though they have had great reviews - but the ZXA5 is a very impressive powered box, and I consider it good value at its regular price. Given your band likes to play loud it's worth at least giving the EVs a listen to see what they can do!
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: nicklang on March 31, 2014, 05:57:18 PM
Cheers Guy........I can get the DSR112's for £700 each.......the DSR115's are more like £850

£990 is just too much at the mo for me dude!!!.....I really appreciate the pointer though....I'll deffo go have a look at those now :D
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Thomas Le on March 31, 2014, 09:40:01 PM
Since you're running subs, I see no point in getting a 15" cab. The DSR112 will do fine in the appropriate freq. range that satellite tops are supposed to handle, and won't get muddy while you're at it.
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Scott Bolt on March 31, 2014, 09:49:44 PM
Since you're running subs, I see no point in getting a 15" cab. The DSR112 will do fine in the appropriate freq. range that satellite tops are supposed to handle, and won't get muddy while you're at it.

This ^.

The ZXA5 is indeed a very nice speaker if you can afford it.

As for the warranty ..... I think that the 7 years is the manufacturers warranty.  I would be surprised if it were different in Europe than here in the states.

From here:  http://usa.yamaha.com/support/warranty/live_sound/images/PAC_LiveSoundProductsSept2012.pdf

I think you will be very pleased with the output of the DSR112's.  They should easily eclipse the ability of your current subs in output.
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Rob Spence on April 01, 2014, 12:52:26 AM


I always start the band dry.....no PA...and bring in the individual instruments.....usually start with the drummer as he's the loudest unmic-ed.......We don't mic the whole kit at every venue obviously.........but sometimes we struggle in a small room.....I guess due to room dynamics rather than "not enough PA"......and sometimes I find the Mackie tops just don't seem to be as clear and as punchy as I would like?????

Ah, it would seem that the drums would be the last thing to add to the PA. Vocals would be first followed by the next thing the audience isn't hearing.

My experience is that the drums, bass and guitars are plenty loud in moderate size rooms. Sometimes I mic the kick, ride and hat only so I can bring them up if needed.
Every vocal mic is really a drum kit mic :-)

 Often I put the keys in the PA if he didn't bring an amp.
[true storey - last night the keyboard player had his own amp so loud I could not hear him in the PA. In fact I muted the channel and no one noticed]

For the size gigs you are doing and the gear you have, you are putting too much in your PA. That is why you have trouble and are blowing up gear.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 01, 2014, 01:44:12 AM
Ah, it would seem that the drums would be the last thing to add to the PA. Vocals would be first followed by the next thing the audience isn't hearing.

My experience is that the drums, bass and guitars are plenty loud in moderate size rooms. Sometimes I mic the kick, ride and hat only so I can bring them up if needed.
Every vocal mic is really a drum kit mic :-)

 Often I put the keys in the PA if he didn't bring an amp.
[true storey - last night the keyboard player had his own amp so loud I could not hear him in the PA. In fact I muted the channel and no one noticed]

For the size gigs you are doing and the gear you have, you are putting too much in your PA. That is why you have trouble and are blowing up gear.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

So we agree.  Wanna join Geezer Audio Services with me, Rees, and Leonard? (Larry, Moe, Curley, Shemp)
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Bob Leonard on April 01, 2014, 03:53:40 AM
Whose in charge of the meds? I need someone to remind me to take mine.
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: John Rutirasiri on April 01, 2014, 04:15:37 AM
My suggestion in prolonging the life of your mid-hi cabinets: since you have subs, use a speaker processor/DSP as a crossover so you don't put much of the kick and bass through the SRM450s.  Yes, even if your speakers are powered and have built-in processing.  It will likely make your mids (vocals) sound better in the process.  Try crossing over to the 450s at 80-100hz and see. There are a number of affordable speaker processors from Ashley, dbx, Xilica, etc.  (Do skip the original version of Driverack PA though -- I think it sounds bad.)  The new Driverack PA2 is worth a look, as is a used 480.  I myself use the Driverack 4800 -- very good sounding unit with rock-solid reliability.

I would also aux-feed the subs.  Even a lowly Mackie 12 channel board can do aux-fed sub.  Here's where it would be prudent to get a speaker processor with at least 3 inputs, so you can run aux-fed sub into the processor and properly align it to the tops. 

Even with common 2-in 6-out processors you can still do aux-fed subs -- You can run the aux-fed sub from a mixer straight into the subs.  In a small room, the slight delay from the processing of the tops may not be noticeable at all.

If you don't have budget for a new speaker processor, one of the best kept secrets of the used gear world is the Sabine ADF-4000.  I've seen them go for as little as $100-$200USD.  It will work great as a crossover/processor for your SRM450.  Or, get two -- one for the L/R tops, the other for subs+center fill.  A marvelously clean and good sounding piece that does many other things well (auto EQ and feedback eliminator work very well.)

Cheers,
JR
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: nicklang on April 01, 2014, 04:59:02 AM
Doesn't the built in crossover inside trhe Mackie 1801 sub do that by going through the High Pass outputs to the tops???
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: John Rutirasiri on April 01, 2014, 05:30:27 AM
Doesn't the built in crossover inside trhe Mackie 1801 sub do that by going through the High Pass outputs to the tops???

You are correct...that sub does have a high-pass output crossover @ 125Hz.  Hopefully that's what the OP is using, and not the full range output!

I would still do the external speaker processor and aux-fed subs though.  125Hz is a little high for me on an 18" sub.

Thanks,
JR
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Mike Christy on April 01, 2014, 05:45:55 AM
You guys are trying to get professional results from MI (musical instrument) level gear found in strip malls. If you want pro level sounding gear, you need to use pro level gear, there are no short cuts. It cost $. If you dont have a budget then its going to sound like crap.
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: nicklang on April 01, 2014, 08:48:15 AM
You guys are trying to get professional results from MI (musical instrument) level gear found in strip malls. If you want pro level sounding gear, you need to use pro level gear, there are no short cuts. It cost $. If you dont have a budget then its going to sound like crap.
Well.......not really much of a constructive answer....I asked for possible alternatives to upgrade to........I already said I had a budget......I said £700 per top box....which is about $1200 per speaker......so your saying everything at my level means we'll sound like crap!.......

Thanks so much to the other posters offering to help me better the sound of our band....it's really kind of you to offer constructive and helpful advice.....really kind of you guys :D

A crossover......I'll look into that for sure.....I just assumed that the sub would take care of that.....

Cheers
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: nicklang on April 01, 2014, 08:58:31 AM
I would still do the external speaker processor and aux-fed subs though.  125Hz is a little high for me on an 18" sub.


Okay I haven't been aux feeding the subs.....am I right in thinking the purpose would be to control the volume of the subs separately to the volume of the tops???.......I've always used the volume control on the back of the sub and main speaker....then gone out of the desk via XLR to the sub and used the high pass output to run the tops!

If I aux feed the subs and feed the tops.....how do I cut the bass frequencies from the tops??....or should I be using a crossover for that reason??

Cheers
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Mike Christy on April 01, 2014, 10:04:33 AM
Well.......not really much of a constructive answer...

Nick, But it is constructive, I'm trying to save you wasted trial and error and euros, if you stay in this field for any length of time (if you are good at it and you have demanding clients) you will eventually realize that the lower level gear, even if deployed correctly, will not suffice, as exemplified by the SRM450V2s

Id Cheer you right back but it's 10AM...

Mike
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Jon C Thomas on April 01, 2014, 12:54:25 PM
Okay I haven't been aux feeding the subs.....am I right in thinking the purpose would be to control the volume of the subs separately to the volume of the tops???.......I've always used the volume control on the back of the sub and main speaker....then gone out of the desk via XLR to the sub and used the high pass output to run the tops!

If I aux feed the subs and feed the tops.....how do I cut the bass frequencies from the tops??....or should I be using a crossover for that reason??

Cheers
The DSR has a high pass built in.
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Chris Hindle on April 01, 2014, 01:05:16 PM
So we agree.  Wanna join Geezer Audio Services with me, Rees, and Leonard? (Larry, Moe, Curley, Shemp)
I'll join.
Had a drummer a couple of months back wanting vocal, snare and keys in his monitor.
12 x 12 stage, in a 300 cap "ballroom"
Vocal, well, ya. Keys, sure. Snare, Really ??
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Ray Aberle on April 01, 2014, 01:15:05 PM
Okay I haven't been aux feeding the subs.....am I right in thinking the purpose would be to control the volume of the subs separately to the volume of the tops???.......I've always used the volume control on the back of the sub and main speaker....then gone out of the desk via XLR to the sub and used the high pass output to run the tops!

If I aux feed the subs and feed the tops.....how do I cut the bass frequencies from the tops??....or should I be using a crossover for that reason??

Cheers
Aux fe subs are used as an additional way to control what the subs are actually getting. A crossover does this by splitting the frequencies that go to different places. Aux-fed approaches it by only sending items that NEED to be in the subs to the subs. So, you might not send vocals to it, but your kick/bass/etc are sent to the subs. Pop a crossover in to LPF the tops to handle those lower frequencies in the mains.

But Mike did make a good point as to the overall professional level of the gear. Yeah, 450s are OK, but the next step is really going to be going to the next level of gear.

-Ray
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: nicklang on April 01, 2014, 02:12:33 PM
I'm about to go out and buy a pair of Yamaha DSR112 this week then

Will that give me a good level of professional gear quality???

....essentially will this give me a sensible step up????
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: John Rutirasiri on April 02, 2014, 12:39:39 AM
I'm about to go out and buy a pair of Yamaha DSR112 this week then

Will that give me a good level of professional gear quality???

....essentially will this give me a sensible step up????

Aux-fed subs also keep the vocal mics COMPLETELY out of the subs, something that no "lo cut" or 18dB/oct @ 80 or 100Hz filter on the mixer channel strip can do 100% effectively.  And boy on cheapo mixers those lo cut filters really cause phase shift and muddy up the vocal.  I just leave the lo-cut disengaged because they never make it to the subs with aux-fed subs.

Speaking of MI-grade gears like Mackie...those original SRM450 that were made in the USA or Italy used high quality drivers and were pretty darn good.  Would the DSR112 fir your bill?  Wood cabinet is a good start.  I think the issue is they can get away with cheaper components and compensate/correct via the DSP.  So end result is it does sound pretty good, but is it going to last?

JR
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: nicklang on April 02, 2014, 05:52:29 AM
Is it going to last???

....so what should I be looking at??......I honestly have NO idea here....I am new to all this :D
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: nicklang on April 02, 2014, 06:38:39 AM
Also assuming I'm gonna aux feed the subs.......

Do I send:
bass guitar - Kick drum - floor tom
to the Subs ONLY

and send:
Vocals - snare - high tom - mid tom - cymbols
to the tops ONLY

Have I got the right of it??

Also is there a delay between the two different output signals??
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Guy Graham on April 02, 2014, 08:52:43 AM
Is it going to last???

I see from this website  (http://www.djkit.com/yamaha/yamaha-dsr112-12-active-pa-speaker.html#)UK customers do appear to get the rather generous 7 year warranty! This would imply that used correctly, Yamaha do indeed think it is going to last :)
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Scott Bolt on April 02, 2014, 09:14:15 AM
I see from this website  (http://www.djkit.com/yamaha/yamaha-dsr112-12-active-pa-speaker.html#)UK customers do appear to get the rather generous 7 year warranty! This would imply that used correctly, Yamaha do indeed think it is going to last :)
I once pegged one side gain on accident (it got bumped in transport and I was mixing from the opposite side).

The DSR112 was solid clipped for the entire first set.  Not only did it not fail, it sounded quite good.  You would have to do some pretty dumb things to break these speakers.  The also stay cool under high load.  I can place my hand on the heat sink even if the are pushed hard.

You don't want to run your bass only into your sub.  The DSRs sound fantastic reproducing the >100Hz content.  Much more defined and clear than your sub for these frequencies.

I had wooed with both speakers.  IMO there is little comparison.  The DSR is more articulate, has much more punch, gets louder, and is more reliable.  In other words, I believe the DSR is a full step up in every respect over your 450s.

If you end up getting them, I believe you will agree. 

If you don't for some reason, there will be no problem finding people to buy them from you.  Most people that own them aren't selling them ;)
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Rob Spence on April 02, 2014, 09:23:10 AM
So we agree.  Wanna join Geezer Audio Services with me, Rees, and Leonard? (Larry, Moe, Curley, Shemp)

Ok, I am in. I may be second oldest after Dick :-)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: nicklang on April 02, 2014, 09:28:17 AM
Cheers guys.....just bought 'em :)
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Scott Bolt on April 02, 2014, 10:47:17 AM
Cheers guys.....just bought 'em :)

Make sure to make a post when you have some time to work with them a while and let us know how it worked out for you.
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: nicklang on April 02, 2014, 01:07:37 PM
My suggestion in prolonging the life of your mid-hi cabinets: since you have subs, use a speaker processor/DSP as a crossover so you don't put much of the kick and bass through the SRM450s.  Yes, even if your speakers are powered and have built-in processing.  It will likely make your mids (vocals) sound better in the process.  Try crossing over to the 450s at 80-100hz and see. There are a number of affordable speaker processors from Ashley, dbx, Xilica, etc.  (Do skip the original version of Driverack PA though -- I think it sounds bad.)  The new Driverack PA2 is worth a look, as is a used 480.  I myself use the Driverack 4800 -- very good sounding unit with rock-solid reliability.

I would also aux-feed the subs.  Even a lowly Mackie 12 channel board can do aux-fed sub.  Here's where it would be prudent to get a speaker processor with at least 3 inputs, so you can run aux-fed sub into the processor and properly align it to the tops. 

Even with common 2-in 6-out processors you can still do aux-fed subs -- You can run the aux-fed sub from a mixer straight into the subs.  In a small room, the slight delay from the processing of the tops may not be noticeable at all.

If you don't have budget for a new speaker processor, one of the best kept secrets of the used gear world is the Sabine ADF-4000.  I've seen them go for as little as $100-$200USD.  It will work great as a crossover/processor for your SRM450.  Or, get two -- one for the L/R tops, the other for subs+center fill.  A marvelously clean and good sounding piece that does many other things well (auto EQ and feedback eliminator work very well.)

Cheers,
JR

REALLY interesting....but struggling to follow a lot of what you're saying :D Gonna have to research this :)
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 02, 2014, 01:11:12 PM
Aux-fed subs also keep the vocal mics COMPLETELY out of the subs, something that no "lo cut" or 18dB/oct @ 80 or 100Hz filter on the mixer channel strip can do 100% effectively.  And boy on cheapo mixers those lo cut filters really cause phase shift and muddy up the vocal.  I just leave the lo-cut disengaged because they never make it to the subs with aux-fed subs.

JR

The text in bold is the only thing completely correct in your post..

ALL Infinite Impulse Response filters (which is all of the various EQ and filters in a mixer) will cause phase shift, and the amount of phase shift is determined by the number of "poles" to the filter.  There is no way to change this by simply raising the component budget.
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 02, 2014, 01:13:18 PM
Even with common 2-in 6-out processors you can still do aux-fed subs -- You can run the aux-fed sub from a mixer straight into the subs.  In a small room, the slight delay from the processing of the tops may not be noticeable at all.

JR

WRONG.

It's not just about processing delay but also feeding FULL RANGE signals to the sub.  Do not do this.
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 02, 2014, 01:13:58 PM
REALLY interesting....but struggling to follow a lot of what you're saying :D Gonna have to research this :)

Read my replies to John's posts.
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: nicklang on April 02, 2014, 01:25:00 PM
Hey Tim.....REALLY appreciate the input mate.....however I think you've overestimated my ability and understanding of all this........
......try to think of me as the half witted neighbor you never had....lol.....

Seriously I just don't really follow much of what's being suggested.....my experience is very limited....I fell into doing the sound for the band....

what's the best way to set up my system of two DSL112 tops and two Mackie SRM1801 subs????
to get the best sound quality I can.....clarity and volume....also to avoid stressing/overloading the speakers???
Title: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Thomas Le on April 02, 2014, 01:27:18 PM
I think what the rest are trying to say is that feed the subs what needs the LF via aux and feed everything to the DSR tops with the 100hz HPF on.


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Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: nicklang on April 02, 2014, 01:34:37 PM
okay.....so on my Mackie Profx16 board I've got four aux outputs (Jack plugs) and matching sub faders.......

So do I use a jack>>>XLR cable for sub out 1 going to the first subwoofer and likewise from sub out 2 going to the second subwoofer?
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Taylor Hall on April 02, 2014, 01:59:26 PM
That's the general idea, but you will want to have a crossover between the mixer output and your sub input (unless your amp has built in DSP of some sort). The reason for this is that your mixer will be outputting a full-range signal and your sub only needs the low end. Giving a sub a full-range signal can damage it, so you want to be sure you only give it the frequencies it is designed to handle.

If you have a crossover (or amp with DSP), set it to the manufacturer's recommended crossover settings and see how it sounds. You may have to modify it slightly to better suit your particular rig.
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Tommy Peel on April 02, 2014, 02:41:46 PM
okay.....so on my Mackie Profx16 board I've got four aux outputs (Jack plugs) and matching sub faders.......

So do I use a jack>>>XLR cable for sub out 1 going to the first subwoofer and likewise from sub out 2 going to the second subwoofer?

Nick,

Looking at a pic of your Profx16 (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91MhsS0MTgL._SL1500_.jpg) possibly the best way to feed your subs would be to send your bass, kick, floor tom, and any other LF producing instrument(keys, etc...) to SUB1(or 2, 3 or 4) by doing the following:
This will give you group fed subs as opposed to AUX fed subs but will prevent you from losing a monitor or FX send and for the most part accomplish the same thing. On that board to do AUX fed right(using a post fader send) you'd have to lose your FX send as it's the only post fader send.

It also should be noted(in case you didn't know) that the SUB faders are different from your AUX sends and don't affect each other.

I would let Tim, Rob, or Bob confirm my thinking before implementing this but I THINK I have it right.  :D
 

Hope this helps,
Tommy
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: nicklang on April 02, 2014, 03:25:39 PM
Nick,

Looking at a pic of your Profx16 (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91MhsS0MTgL._SL1500_.jpg) possibly the best way to feed your subs would be to send your bass, kick, floor tom, and any other LF producing instrument(keys, etc...) to SUB1(or 2, 3 or 4) by doing the following:
  • Disengage the send to L-R with the button by the fader for the desired channels
  • Engage the 1-2 button for the channel
  • pan the channel all the way left(to send to SUB 1 instead of both 1 and 2
  • Connect the SUB1 output to the input of one of your SRM1801s using appropriate adapters and connect the full range output of the sub to the other SRM1801
  • Push the L and R buttons for SUB1 to send that SUB to the Main L-R mix
  • Connect your DSR112s to the L&R outputs and engage their high-pass filter
This will give you group fed subs as opposed to AUX fed subs but will prevent you from losing a monitor or FX send and for the most part accomplish the same thing. On that board to do AUX fed right(using a post fader send) you'd have to lose your FX send as it's the only post fader send.

It also should be noted(in case you didn't know) that the SUB faders are different from your AUX sends and don't affect each other.

I would let Tim, Rob, or Bob confirm my thinking before implementing this but I THINK I have it right.  :D
 

Hope this helps,
Tommy

Tommy mate ......that's super helpful....thanks.....It's along the lines of what I was thinking....but wasn't sure exactly how to achieve it!!!.......

Should I be putting the bass guitar in the main L-R mix or to the sub group fader?????.......seems like an awkward instrument as the frequencies are within the range of the tops as well as the subs??

Cheers
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Tommy Peel on April 02, 2014, 03:33:37 PM
Tommy mate ......that's super helpful....thanks.....It's along the lines of what I was thinking....but wasn't sure exactly how to achieve it!!!.......

Should I be putting the bass guitar in the main L-R mix or to the sub group fader?????.......seems like an awkward instrument as the frequencies are within the range of the tops as well as the subs??

Cheers

If you just put it in the SUB mix and then send the SUB mix to the main then the bass and whatever you're sending to your subs will also go to your mains.

Bass guitar signal would be:

Bass -> Channel strip -> channel fader -> SUB mix    -> subs
                                                                                 -> main mix(tops)

You definitely need the bass in the tops for the high frequencies it creates.
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: nicklang on April 02, 2014, 03:55:18 PM
If you just put it in the SUB mix and then send the SUB mix to the main then the bass and whatever you're sending to your subs will also go to your mains.

Bass guitar signal would be:

Bass -> Channel strip -> channel fader -> SUB mix    -> subs
                                                                                 -> main mix(tops)

You definitely need the bass in the tops for the high frequencies it creates.

Okay....so bear in mind I'm slow witted.....lol.....

If you put the bass guitar along with the kick and floor toms to the sub mix and send out via the sub 1 out put.......but then go to the tops.....wouldn't that have defeated the point of using a sub group in the first place????......I don't really follow what you're suggesting exactly
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Tommy Peel on April 02, 2014, 04:01:18 PM
Okay....so bear in mind I'm slow witted.....lol.....

If you put the bass guitar along with the kick and floor toms to the sub mix and send out via the sub 1 out put.......but then go to the tops.....wouldn't that have defeated the point of using a sub group in the first place????......I don't really follow what you're suggesting exactly

Not sure my theory is right but....

The idea behind aux/group fed subs is to keep other stuff out of the subs(vocal mics, electric guitar mics, etc...) not to keep the bass heavy stuff out of the tops. The high pass on the tops keeps them from having too much LF while the low pass on the subs keeps the HF of the kick/bass/floor tom out of the subs. This cleans up the vocals and other instruments and lets the subs do their jobs better.

I definitely welcome correction/clarification from the "real pros" anytime. :-)

Edit: spelling
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: nicklang on April 02, 2014, 04:18:41 PM
....ah okay.....I understand you now.....

One of my concerns ...... and from what I gleaned from earlier posts was that having bass guitar and pounding kick drum, floor toms.....as well as all the other instruments and vocals ........etc all going to the tops was causing me to wear out my tops......

Maybe I misunderstood.....but I thought that even with the high pass filter turned on.......it was damaging my tops having all the band going through them.......

I just assumed (maybe wrongly) that the point of the aux mix (or sub mix in my case) was to ONLY send the higher frequencies to the tops and the lower frequencies to the subwoofers????
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Corey Scogin on April 02, 2014, 04:37:06 PM
Maybe I misunderstood.....but I thought that even with the high pass filter turned on.......it was damaging my tops having all the band going through them.......

I just assumed (maybe wrongly) that the point of the aux mix (or sub mix in my case) was to ONLY send the higher frequencies to the tops and the lower frequencies to the subwoofers????

Let try to simplify things a bit:

Scenario 1 "Good"
Use the internal crossover functionality of the subs/tops.  Engage the high-pass filter on the tops only if you're sending them the full-range signal, not if you're feeding them from the high-pass output of the subwoofer's built-in crossover.

Scenario 2 "Better"
Use a system processor/crossover that allows you to set the high-pass and low-pass filter points for each band (sub, main).  Many subwoofers with internal crossovers are set at 120Hz.  Using an external crossover will allow you to adjust the crossover frequency to taste.

Scenario 3 "Best"
Either using a 3-input crossover or no crossover at all, connect the mains to the stereo outputs of the mixer and the subwoofer to a group or aux output.  Only send signals that have desirable content below 100Hz to the subwoofer.  Engage the high-pass filter on the mains only if not using a crossover.  The point of an aux-fed subwoofer is not to protect the mains but to clean up any rumble from the subwoofer caused by low frequency content picked up by vocal mics and other instruments that have no business below 100Hz (or whatever the crossover point is).


*edits for clarity
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Tommy Peel on April 02, 2014, 04:39:16 PM
....ah okay.....I understand you now.....

One of my concerns ...... and from what I gleaned from earlier posts was that having bass guitar and pounding kick drum, floor toms.....as well as all the other instruments and vocals ........etc all going to the tops was causing me to wear out my tops......

Maybe I misunderstood.....but I thought that even with the high pass filter turned on.......it was damaging my tops having all the band going through them.......

I just assumed (maybe wrongly) that the point of the aux mix (or sub mix in my case) was to ONLY send the higher frequencies to the tops and the lower frequencies to the subwoofers????

I'll let Tim or one of the other Pros elaborate further.

I mix regularly at a small church with a full band through some JBL 15+horn tops run full range(no subs) with no problems. We run a DI'd bass and mic'd kick through it, have no issues, and expect no issues. We get as much kick and bass as we want in the room w/out pushing the system to it's limits. Anyway I doubt you'll have a problem but I'll let someone else chime in to confirm that.

And I think Corey just simplified everything pretty well. :-)
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Taylor Hall on April 02, 2014, 04:47:48 PM
Corey laid it out pretty well.

What he summed up in option #3 is what you're going for. Clean up the low end so the instruments that need it most can make full use of it.
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: nicklang on April 02, 2014, 05:04:27 PM
Huge thanks guys.....deffo going with scenario 3 as that obviously will give me the cleanest sound........

one question though.......

Lets say I send the Vocals, high toms, mid toms, cymbols (occasionally lead guitar) to the main L-R mix and engage the HPF on the mains (tops)

and send

Kick, floor toms to the sub group out and straight to the input on the subwoofers.....

Where would you guys recommend I put bass guitar (I'm guessing in this set up to the main L-R mix????)

or to be really awkward is there a way of sending it to both via Y cable or some other such method....or is this an unnecessary complication???

Cheers so much once again.....you guys are really helpful!!!!

:D :D


Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Corey Scogin on April 02, 2014, 05:09:31 PM
Lets say I send the Vocals, high toms, mid toms, cymbols (occasionally lead guitar) to the main L-R mix and engage the HPF on the mains (tops)

and send

Kick, floor toms to the sub group out and straight to the input on the subwoofers.....

Where would you guys recommend I put bass guitar (I'm guessing in this set up to the main L-R mix????)

or to be really awkward is there a way of sending it to both via Y cable or some other such method....or is this an unnecessary complication???

You're not quite getting the aux-fed-sub idea.

EVERYTHING goes to the mains via the LR bus.
ONLY signals with relevant content below 100Hz go to the subwoofers via the group or post-fader aux bus.

Edit addition:
Using an aux fed sub is secondary to making sure the crossover is set up properly (or high-pass filters are engaged).  Unless you are having issues with the low end sounding "muddy" then it is likely not worth the trouble to configure the system for aux fed subs.  There is no harm in doing it for the sake of learning how it's done and what affects it has on the sound though. 
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Tommy Peel on April 02, 2014, 05:16:21 PM
You're not quite getting the aux-fed-sub idea.

EVERYTHING goes to the mains via the LR bus.
ONLY signals with relevant content below 100Hz go to the subwoofers via the group or post-fader aux bus.

+1

Send the bass, kick, and floor tom to a group(SUB on your board). Connect the group output to the the subs AND send the group to the LR mix(L & R buttons above the SUB fader). Again you want EVERYTHING going to the high passed mains; you're not going to break anything. You only want stuff with useful LF content going to the subs.
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Steve Garris on April 02, 2014, 05:43:57 PM
I'm going to offer an easier method:

Go out of your boards Left Main out directly to your Mackie subs.
Go out of your boards Right Main out directly to your Yamaha tops.

Now you can use the Pan control on each channel to determine what does not go to the subs, i.e,
All vocals and guitar would be panned hard right.
Bass guitar panned 50/50 or to taste.
Kick drum & Keyboards or any instrument requiring low frequencies would be panned 50/50.

I use this method with my JBL PRX system and it works very well. You Mackie subs have the built in x-over at 125  and are made to handle full range. I would try the Yamaha's HP filter settings, and decide which sounds best over your Mackie subs. Do not use the "D-Contour" setting for live sound!
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Tommy Peel on April 02, 2014, 05:45:59 PM
I'm going to offer an easier method:

Go out of your boards Left Main out directly to your Mackie subs.
Go out of your boards Right Main out directly to your Yamaha tops.

Now you can use the Pan control on each channel to determine what does not go to the subs, i.e,
All vocals and guitar would be panned hard right.
Bass guitar panned 50/50 or to taste.
Kick drum & Keyboards or any instrument requiring low frequencies would be panned 50/50.

I use this method with my JBL PRX system and it works very well. You Mackie subs have the built in x-over at 125  and are made to handle full range. I would try the Yamaha's HP filter settings, and decide which sounds best over your Mackie subs. Do not use the "D-Contour" setting for live sound!

Nice solution, wish I'd thought of it.  8)
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: nicklang on April 02, 2014, 05:58:42 PM
Thanks guys....starting to get an idea.......

is there no issue with signal strength or such by sending different signals left and right pan to different speakers???.....then I guess you're saying daisy chain each subsequent top or sub......

I know I must appear really flipping dumb....but honestly....I have no idea how some of these things work....once we navigate away from "the norm"

Corey mate.......thanks....I really struggle to follow your method mate.....I really appreciate your time and effort :D
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Scott Bolt on April 02, 2014, 08:45:44 PM
Thanks guys....starting to get an idea.......

is there no issue with signal strength or such by sending different signals left and right pan to different speakers???.....then I guess you're saying daisy chain each subsequent top or sub......

I know I must appear really flipping dumb....but honestly....I have no idea how some of these things work....once we navigate away from "the norm"

Corey mate.......thanks....I really struggle to follow your method mate.....I really appreciate your time and effort :D

Nick,

I would seriously try the most simple solution first.

Take the L/R output from your board into the Left and Right sub inputs.

Your Mackie's are equipped with a built in cross-over.  The full range signal can be sent to them, and only 40-120Hz will be amplified by the sub.

Use the HPF out into the DSR's inputs.  I would just run the DSR's in full range.  Despite the fact that the DSR's state that their HPF is set to 125Hz (I like others here thought it was 100, but I just checked the manual).

I am using a PRX618S-XLF which is crossed over at 90Hz which I really like with the DSR's which appear to really thrive on the additional LF output at this frequency; however, you most surely will be running out of bottom long before you run out of tops on your subs.

It is easy to try this, and it is a much easier setup.  Run everything into both subs and tops and let the cross-over in the subs do all the work.  Balance the low to the highs with the input knobs on the subs and tops and always set them there.

I think you will find this is a very good sounding setup.

If I had an external cross-over and the Mackie subs, I would likely pick 90Hz with the DSR's vs 125Hz, but I have a feeling that the difference may not be very big anyway.
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: nicklang on April 02, 2014, 08:59:02 PM
.....lol.......Arrggghhh......lol.......

After all the different options.....Scott.....I'm right back to the way I've been setting up for the last six months......Main L-R into the subs and pass through using the HPF on the subs......this is what the Mackie manual says to do.....so that's what I did :)
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Corey Scogin on April 02, 2014, 10:34:03 PM
.....lol.......Arrggghhh......lol.......

After all the different options.....Scott.....I'm right back to the way I've been setting up for the last six months......Main L-R into the subs and pass through using the HPF on the subs......this is what the Mackie manual says to do.....so that's what I did :)

There's nothing wrong with that.  I think you'll be happy with the DSR's if you end up getting them.
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Bob Leonard on April 02, 2014, 11:35:51 PM
Nick,
The entire point of having a sub woofer is to replicate the frequencies below the xover point set for the system. Think of the system as being the upper cabinets and lower cabinets (sub) working as one unit.

Full range cabinets of the type you are using will replicate frequencies in most cases down to about 65Hz. That doesn't always mean that the lower frequencies will sound great, but that is usually the spec.

Most subs will replicate frequencies down to 30-40Hz without a problem. The goal will be to find the crossover point where your upper cabinets stop reproducing sound and the lower cabinet (sub) takes over. Many people incorrectly assume that kick drum, bass, low register organs, should be heard coming from the sub. Wrong, totally wrong. Your upper cabinets are the source for all mid - mid/low range frequencies. This is why I am very partial to 15" drivers, in my case SRX725s, for use in a point source system.

If you want a bullet proof system put your signal through a DSP BEFORE the amplifiers. The DSP, once set correctly, will decide what frequencies goes to what cabinets. The DSP will determine high pass and low pass cutoff points, center frequency, correct levels for the cabinets and amplifiers, etc., and once set will seldom if ever need to be changed.

The magic number for your center frequency will be between 100Hz and about 80Hz and you'll be surprised by what you DON'T hear coming from your subs.

This is where you should start. No need for aux fed subs, special EQ settings or any other type shit. Just a properly tuned system and a smooth transition from top to bottom. I count my dbx 4800 as the second most important piece of hardware in my racks, right next to my board, but that's me and YMMV.
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: nicklang on April 03, 2014, 05:19:00 AM
Cheers Corey mate.....I bought the DSR's yesterday.......it'll be the first gig with them on Saturday :D

I really did try to follow your set-up procedure/arrangement I just couldn't quite understand how everything connected together :)
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Steve Garris on April 03, 2014, 01:21:38 PM
Thanks guys....starting to get an idea.......

is there no issue with signal strength or such by sending different signals left and right pan to different speakers???.....then I guess you're saying daisy chain each subsequent top or sub......



Yes - you would just go out of the top on one side to the top on the other side.
Same with the bass bins.

I would certainly start with Scott's suggestion - just plug them in as recommended by Mackie using the 1801 internal crossover. Turn the 1801's all the way up, then bring the Yamaha's up to taste (you might not reach the 12 o'clock position or half way). Those Yamaha's are a great choice, I just bought 2 more yesterday as they make an excellent, loud monitor wedge.
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Mark McFarlane on April 03, 2014, 01:33:47 PM
....ah okay.....I understand you now.....

One of my concerns ...... and from what I gleaned from earlier posts was that having bass guitar and pounding kick drum, floor toms.....as well as all the other instruments and vocals ........etc all going to the tops was causing me to wear out my tops......

Maybe I misunderstood.....but I thought that even with the high pass filter turned on.......it was damaging my tops having all the band going through them.......

I just assumed (maybe wrongly) that the point of the aux mix (or sub mix in my case) was to ONLY send the higher frequencies to the tops and the lower frequencies to the subwoofers? ???


oops, I missed a bunch of intermediate posts when I typed the reply below...

The drums and bass must go to your tops, they output frequencies well above the sub woofer range.  You'll completely lose the bass (upper scales and harmonics) if you don't sending it to the tops. 

When using a sub woofer, whether aux fed or not, you should filter off the low frequencies (the freqs that the subwoofer emits) from your main signal before sending the signal to your tops.

Summary: Bass, kick, toms, synths: both tops and subs
other instruments and vocal mics: to tops only.

You can actually cheat this without using an aux by, e.g., panning non-sub instruments and vocals far right and running tops off the right channel only. Pan sub-bound instruments to the center and run your subs off the left channel.  Poor mans aux-subs when you don't have an aux to spare.

If your subs have a built-in low pass filter, and your tops have an engagable high-pass filter, you may be able to 'get by' without a crossover, but those filters may overlap or leave a hole so a properly tuned crossover is a better choice.

Final note: The electric crossover numbers don't necessarily represent what the speakers will output (the acoustic crossover) so ideally you will have both a crossover and a way to measure what the combination of crossover and speakers is actually delivering.
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 03, 2014, 02:11:47 PM
Cheers Corey mate.....I bought the DSR's yesterday.......it'll be the first gig with them on Saturday :D

I really did try to follow your set-up procedure/arrangement I just couldn't quite understand how everything connected together :)

Hi Nick, here's a thought... post your city name (you can also change your profile so it will display, I think they call the data field "personal text".  http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?action=profile;area=forumprofile;u=16  But put some kind of geographical reference there as there are forum users all over world, and one or two might be close enough that for a couple of pints and dinner, you can get some face to face advice and help.

Now for some more general explanation that, when taken with some of the advice already given, will help you get a better grip on the technical side of things....

I'm not familiar with your mixer and can't offer specific connection advice, but in general what you're doing with "aux fed subs" is creating a little mix that just goes to the subwoofers, much like you make a personal monitor mix where you'd only put in what the player wants/needs to hear.  As has been pointed out, there are different ways to do this and each has different levels of flexibility and control.

In the old days (before 2004 or so) that was usually done from an input channel's "Auxiliary Send" knob (auxiliary because they didn't directly affect the main mix the audience hears).  Yamaha began calling Aux mixes just "MIXes" and included a little switch that either made the MIX work like a traditional Aux send, or it would send the signal to a "Subgroup" or "Group", as had been done (and still is on some mixers) with a "bus assign" buttons and the Pan control.  Confused yet?  Believe me, at first it took some time to wrap my head around, so don't be alarmed if this doesn't seem perfectly clear the first time.

Anyway, "sub groups" and "submasters" are pretty much the same things with different names.  They provide another way for an input signal to reach the mixer outputs (note the plural) and offer a point to do things (what kinds of things?) with the inputs that are assigned to them.  Things?  Like using the group/submaster OUTPUT to send to your subwoofer.  In this case you would NOT assign the group/submaster output back to Left/Right, you want it to live in its own happy little world; and you'd assign the channel strip to both Left/Right and the submaster.  Another use of groups/submasters is to insert additional processing like a compressor on background vocals or a horn section, or an additional EQ for lavalier mics in a corporate presentation setting; in these cases the group or submaster output would be routed/assigned back to Left/Right and the group/submaster's physical OUTPUT would not be used; the INPUT channels would be assigned ONLY to the subgroup (no input routing to L/R).

By using a subwoofer and whatever 'crossover' filters are available in your speaker's processing (buttons and switches and knobs, oh my!) you help take the most extreme part of the low frequency duties and send them to the sub woofer; the top box will be much happier and the woofer or amp will live longer.  If you're blowing the high drivers, you're simply out of rig and nothing except turning down will save them.....  Using Aux fed subs allows you to keep from sending vocals, acoustic guitar, snare drum or cymbal mics, etc to the subwoofers and does so much better than any "low cut" switch on a mixer's input channels.

Hope this helps, Nick.
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: nicklang on April 04, 2014, 05:33:58 AM
Thanks so much to everyone for all your help......You've helped me to get a better understanding of the way sound works within a PA as well as connectivity with the PA.......

:D
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: John Rutirasiri on April 06, 2014, 02:54:27 AM
The text in bold is the only thing completely correct in your post..

ALL Infinite Impulse Response filters (which is all of the various EQ and filters in a mixer) will cause phase shift, and the amount of phase shift is determined by the number of "poles" to the filter.  There is no way to change this by simply raising the component budget.

Tim, analog mixers (like what the OP has) do not employ IIR filters (which are a digital filters.) 

Yes, all analog filters and IIR filters cause phase shift, and all things being equal it is the number of poles and the topology the filter employs that affect phase shift.  But of course in the real world, analog filters are not created equally between mixer A to mixer B.  So it's not just the number of poles (X dB/octave) that affects phase shift and how it sounds.

Cheap mixers use cheap components, like caps and resistors with tolerance all over the place, or caps with high ESR.  The 80Hz low cut 12dB/octave on a Yamaha IM8-40 or APB (granted the cutoff freq is variable on the APB) sounds a lot better than one on a $99 mixer.  On an analog mixer, component budget/BOM and circuit topology most definitely affect phase shift, not just the number of poles.

Concerning doing aux-fed sub directly from mixer (without delay capability from a speaker processor): as I said, ideally you'd have a 3-input processor. If that's not available, the OP can still do aux-fed sub directly from mixer into his sub and use a 2-input processor for the tops.  Not ideal, but doable because his powered subs have built-in crossover.

Best,
JR
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: David Morison on April 06, 2014, 09:50:44 AM
Tim, analog mixers (like what the OP has) do not employ IIR filters (which are a digital filters.) 


Oh boy, this is gonna be good....

Sits back...

Gets popcorn...


Decides to be less sarky and provide an actual answer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_impulse_response) instead.
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 06, 2014, 01:05:44 PM
Oh boy, this is gonna be good....

Sits back...

Gets popcorn...


Decides to be less sarky and provide an actual answer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_impulse_response) instead.

Nope.  I just added another name to the ignore list. I don't have time to correct every bullshit, patently wrong post.
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on April 06, 2014, 01:50:15 PM
Thanks so much to everyone for all your help......You've helped me to get a better understanding of the way sound works within a PA as well as connectivity with the PA.......

:D

Pay close attention to any responses from Tim McCulloch.  He is a top level working sound pro.

John R on the other hand is Way off the mark
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Tommy Peel on April 06, 2014, 02:39:51 PM
Pay close attention to any responses from Tim McCulloch.  He is a top level working sound pro.

John R on the other hand is Way off the mark

+1000

Sent from my Nexus 4 running Slimkat + HellsCore b46-t3 using Tapatalk Pro

Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 06, 2014, 08:13:25 PM
Oh boy, this is gonna be good....

Sits back...

Gets popcorn...


Decides to be less sarky and provide an actual answer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_impulse_response) instead.

David, good link on IIR/FIR filters, too.  Thanks for posting it.
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: David Morison on April 07, 2014, 03:22:17 AM
David, good link on IIR/FIR filters, too.  Thanks for posting it.

First one that came up on Wiki - it's that easy to double check things, so I really don't get why people don't do it more before posting sometimes.

Anyhoo, while I'm here, thanks for all the time & effort you put into the fora, I've learned tonnes from folk like you and it's probably worth acknowledging a little more often  :)

Cheers,
D.
Title: Re: Dissapointed with Mackie SRM450V2 and looking to upgrade
Post by: John Rutirasiri on April 09, 2014, 10:42:48 PM
Oh boy, this is gonna be good....

Sits back...

Gets popcorn...


Decides to be less sarky and provide an actual answer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_impulse_response) instead.

What was I thinking?  It is the FIR that's the digital filter.  Sorry about the mispost, and thank you for correcting me on this important point.

I think we are all here to contribute, help, and learn -- and should be allowed space as such.  I have not a single intention of being sarcastic or demeaning of others; that is simply not my character.  If something posted is mistake or patently wrong, it is unintentional -- my apologies.   

Nobody wants to misinform or post wrong information.  As careful as I am, it does happen from time to time, be it from hastily posting at 3am, having been misinformed myself, etc.   

Best,
JR