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Title: No drums in the mix
Post by: Scott Olewiler on July 16, 2014, 06:13:10 AM
Got a call on Sunday July 6 to quote a price on specific system for an all day benefit for veterans on July 12th. After getting some more details about the event I informed the event coordinator that they needed to find someone with a much larger system than I could offer. (I was also way to tied up with other projects that week to prepare for this show or to try and locate equipment to rent). Fortunately they found someone to donate their time and equipment.

Event day comes and it's nice day for a motorcycle ride, so a couple of us jump on our bikes and head over. As we're parking our bikes I can hear the 2nd performer, a solo guitarist and the sound in the parking lot is amazing. We walk over to the stage and I see (4) Bag End cabinets(2 12" with the center horn)  on each side of the stage 2 over 2. Great glad to see they got a properly sized system for the event.  And it sounds great.

The first act, which we missed, was a 5 piece country band and that drummer donated his kit for the whole day, so the kit is already mic'd up and had been used for at least one set. The acoustic guy finishes his set and the next act up is a Blue band. They launch into their first song and there's no drums other than kick (which is too low IMO) in the mix. I mean I could barely hear a snare drum from the stage and I could literally see the guy playing the toms and couldn't hear them. I was not more than 40 ft from the stage directly in front of the stacks. Pretty much all I hear is very loud guitar and vocal, with keys and bass kind of buried in the mix. Not horrible but not even.

Mixer is at the side of the stage so I'm waiting for the sound guy to walk out, which he eventually does; stands in front of the stage not far from me and I'm thinking, OK, he'll fix that. He walks back to board and starts to have a conversation with the rest of the sound crew with his back to the stage. Sometime during the 4th song he non-chalantly starts bringing the drums up. Remember, this kit was already used for an entire set just as it sat by an earlier act. Who apparently had no drums in their mix.

I'm just flabbergasted at his lack of concern about the mix. It obvious from his body language that there is not a problem, he just didn't bother bring the drums up until 1/3 of the way into the third act's set. This system sounds great, and I feel bad for these local guys on stage who probably never get to play with a system this good who are getting a bad mix. Worse yet, is the fact that most of the the headline act is in the audience because they have a little fan tent set up and they're hearing the same thing I am. I can see them talking among themselves and pointing at the stage.

I have done all day events myself and I'm about to do another one in a few weeks and I just can't imagine not giving every band in the line-up the best possible mix I can regardless of whether they are the first act or the headliner. Because I play as well as mix I rarely get to go out and hear other bands, so I really hope this isn't par for the course for festival type gigs. We've all had gigs with no sound check, and I've seen headliner BEs screw the opening act deliberately, but this IMHO was someone just not caring about the mix. Very sad.
Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: Tim McCulloch on July 16, 2014, 08:57:03 AM
The event got what they paid for.  No excuse for the drum thing, but no recourse, either.
Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: Brian Jojade on July 16, 2014, 10:34:02 AM
Fortunately they found someone to donate their time and equipment.


That says it all right there.  Charity events like this BLOW.  When you get beat up to provide your services for free, it's hard to care that much.
Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: Steve M Smith on July 16, 2014, 10:39:11 AM
That says it all right there.  Charity events like this BLOW.  When you get beat up to provide your services for free, it's hard to care that much.

They're not all bad.  I did an all day charity gig a couple of weeks ago.

It helps if you know the organiser and all of the musicians - and if all the equipment is borrowed and is already there!


Steve.
Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: Tom Roche on July 16, 2014, 01:57:10 PM
They're not all bad.  I did an all day charity gig a couple of weeks ago.

It helps if you know the organiser and all of the musicians - and if all the equipment is borrowed and is already there!


Steve.
Agreed.

These problems happen at paid events, too.  I've heard/seen more than my fair share of the same problem that Scott mentions in his post....drums buried deep in the mix.  Usually I can only hear/feel bass drum.  No cymbals, no toms, very little snare.  It's so common I figured it was a common mindset with sound engineers.
Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: Steve Kennedy-Williams on July 16, 2014, 06:28:59 PM
Agreed.

These problems happen at paid events, too.  I've heard/seen more than my fair share of the same problem that Scott mentions in his post....drums buried deep in the mix.  Usually I can only hear/feel bass drum.  No cymbals, no toms, very little snare.  It's so common I figured it was a common mindset with sound engineers.

Sounds like an engineer used to mixing a small venue...

... and with a listening problem.  ::)
Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: Jay Barracato on July 16, 2014, 06:47:49 PM
The event got what they paid for.  No excuse for the drum thing, but no recourse, either.

Worrying about what someone else is doing while they are mixing is a losing proposition on all sides.

There was a time when I let it suck most of the fun of live music out of the events I was attending, then I decided that wasn't the result I wanted.

My attitude now is to find something enjoyable about every show. If I can't find anything at all, then I leave.

I think every tech should spend some time as a Band engineer and gain experience in getting a consistent show on a variety of equipment, and then they should spend some time as a system tech and gain experience in what it takes to provide a system that makes it easy for a visiting tech to have an easy show.
Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: Tom Roche on July 16, 2014, 06:49:04 PM
Sounds like an engineer used to mixing a small venue...

... and with a listening problem.  ::)
Yeah, either that or no comprehension of balance and/or how instruments are supposed to sound.
Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: Alex Rigodanzo on July 16, 2014, 09:16:39 PM
Just saw Darius Rucker headline the Hodag festival in Rhinelander WI.  A hint of snare was all that came thru the mains. Sometimes when things were quiet a bit of kick made it through but that was it.  You also didn't hear lead guitar, fiddle or keyboard unless they were playing a solo.  Nice and strong then but buried as soon as their solo was over.  I know people come to hear him sing, but damn, there's more to those songs and the other musicians working their butts off deserve to be heard too.
Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: Tim McCulloch on July 16, 2014, 09:50:16 PM
Just saw Darius Rucker headline the Hodag festival in Rhinelander WI.  A hint of snare was all that came thru the mains. Sometimes when things were quiet a bit of kick made it through but that was it.  You also didn't hear lead guitar, fiddle or keyboard unless they were playing a solo.  Nice and strong then but buried as soon as their solo was over.  I know people come to hear him sing, but damn, there's more to those songs and the other musicians working their butts off deserve to be heard too.

We've done a couple of shows with Rucker and I don't recall that much of an imbalance.  I found the mix to be very 'vocal-forward' but the band mix wasn't bad at all.  Perhaps the guy he had back then got fired for over-mixing the band, or artist management got involved - we know what wizards of music and technology most of them are...

Two or 3 times a year we have a run on "I was at the XYZ show and the mix sucked" threads.  I don't hear as many terrible mixes as I did 6 or 7 years ago; pre-recession it seemed like every support act (no matter if they were the 4th support on a 4 band bill) carried a mixerperson.  A few of them were tragically terrible and a few were pretty good, but the bell curve of mediocrity was stuck at the lower end of middle.  These days I hear better mixes, the bell curve seems to be at middle or maybe a little higher.  Up the food chain there are some really good guys and gals mixing and the quality of middle seems better.

I agree with Jay B.... it's not easy to separate the professional from the personal.  It's taken me a long time to ignore audio issues I'm not in control of.
Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: Steve M Smith on July 17, 2014, 02:47:13 AM
A hint of snare was all that came thru the mains. Sometimes when things were quiet a bit of kick made it through but that was it.  You also didn't hear lead guitar, fiddle or keyboard unless they were playing a solo.

What was left to hear?  Just vocals?

Sometimes all you hear is a mush of sound and you can't quite work out what is making it!

There was a time when I let it suck most of the fun of live music out of the events I was attending, then I decided that wasn't the result I wanted.

When I'm mixing, I want to enjoy the music.  It took me a while to train myself to listen to the music as a whole rather than a collection of individual elements.  It's the same if I'm playing in a band.  It's too easy to concentrate on what you are doing but far better to listen to everything.

It might sound stupid, but I have found that when playing, I can conciously switch from listening to myself to listening to the whole sound.


Steve.
Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: Alex Rigodanzo on July 17, 2014, 08:11:58 AM
What was left to hear?  Just vocals?

Sometimes all you hear is a mush of sound and you can't quite work out what is making it!

When I'm mixing, I want to enjoy the music.  It took me a while to train myself to listen to the music as a whole rather than a collection of individual elements.  It's the same if I'm playing in a band.  It's too easy to concentrate on what you are doing but far better to listen to everything.

It might sound stupid, but I have found that when playing, I can conciously switch from listening to myself to listening to the whole sound.


Steve.

Vocals and acoustic guitar was pretty much it most of the time.  I heard something similar with an Eagles tribute band recently.  It's like they're so intent on wowing the crowd with the vocal presentation they forget there's a whole band playing.
Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: Jay Barracato on July 17, 2014, 10:02:37 AM
What was left to hear?  Just vocals?

Sometimes all you hear is a mush of sound and you can't quite work out what is making it!

When I'm mixing, I want to enjoy the music.  It took me a while to train myself to listen to the music as a whole rather than a collection of individual elements.  It's the same if I'm playing in a band.  It's too easy to concentrate on what you are doing but far better to listen to everything.

It might sound stupid, but I have found that when playing, I can conciously switch from listening to myself to listening to the whole sound.


Steve.

Steve you hit on one of my pieces of advice for young musicians. That is to practice listening for for specific things in the mix when appropriate.

All too often I think the I can't hear this complaint is really I wasn't listening for it.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: Steve Oldridge on July 17, 2014, 10:58:21 AM
Scott,

I've been on the stage side (in the band) and FOH side of events (as junior help) where the soundguy has been instructed by "management" to make the headliner sound "THE BEST".

The end result is the other bands sound "not so good"!!
Had I not experienced it I would not have thought it can happen.  It is one angle to look at!
Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: Mike Christy on July 17, 2014, 11:49:31 AM
Scott,

I've been on the stage side (in the band) and FOH side of events (as junior help) where the soundguy has been instructed by "management" to make the headliner sound "THE BEST".

The end result is the other bands sound "not so good"!!
Had I not experienced it I would not have thought it can happen.  It is one angle to look at!

The ole clamp down on the system limiter/comp trick...
Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: Steve M Smith on July 17, 2014, 01:49:02 PM
I sometimes see the opposite of not listening to the mix properly.  An engineer who is constantly fiddling with things, making tiny, imperceptable changes to gain and eq settings.
In most cases, if he stepped back from the mixer and listened to the overall sound, he would realise that it was fine.


Steve.
Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: Stefan Maerz on July 17, 2014, 01:50:36 PM
I've seen headliner BEs screw the opening act deliberately,
I've been to a few concerts that made me wonder about this. Never understood how someone could intentionally do something like this.
Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: Alex Rigodanzo on July 17, 2014, 07:25:07 PM
Scott,

I've been on the stage side (in the band) and FOH side of events (as junior help) where the soundguy has been instructed by "management" to make the headliner sound "THE BEST".

The end result is the other bands sound "not so good"!!
Had I not experienced it I would not have thought it can happen.  It is one angle to look at!

I've seen this many, many times over the past 3.5+ decades as a spectator. That's why I gave the big shout out to Mark Hartzell for allowing me the whole rig as a local opening act a few weeks back. It's no bs that I had people tell me we sounded better than the headliners that night. I know we were louder ;-)
Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: Tom Roche on July 17, 2014, 08:51:18 PM
Saw Daughtry and Goo Goo Dolls last night.  As for Daughtry, his drummer's bass drum was rather prominent in the mix, the snare drum slightly buried, and no reason to use toms or cymbals as they could barely be heard at best.  The drum mix for GGD was better, though the cymbals and toms were still a little too low in the mix.
Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: Rick Powell on July 18, 2014, 12:55:44 AM
Agreed.

These problems happen at paid events, too.  I've heard/seen more than my fair share of the same problem that Scott mentions in his post....drums buried deep in the mix.  Usually I can only hear/feel bass drum.  No cymbals, no toms, very little snare.  It's so common I figured it was a common mindset with sound engineers.

Egads!   ;D ;D ;D Are we experiencing a new era that is the opposite of "lead kick drum" dominating and bludgeoning the rest of the mix?  Not that the pendulum should swing too far the other way, LOL.
Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: Steve M Smith on July 18, 2014, 01:49:29 AM
Are we experiencing a new era that is the opposite of "lead kick drum"

Is that where an engineer is showing off his systems power by making your clothing flap in time with the music instead of showing off its potential to amplify music properly?


Steve.
Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: Scott Holtzman on July 18, 2014, 02:41:27 AM
Is that where an engineer is showing off his systems power by making your clothing flap in time with the music instead of showing off its potential to amplify music properly?


Steve.

For Pop and Metal today it seems that kidney stone shattering LF is considered good sound.  There is humor value in an electronic drum not that you can reproduce at an insane level but to me that is not music, it's an effect, almost like in a movie.  Music has harmony.   

The bottom line is we are hired help, if the engineer has a bass fetish and is indulging it that's one thing.  If the client wants that type of effect it is our job to produce it and charge them for the equipment necessary to reproduce it.  It's not about what we like, or want to listen to.  Even Pop Country to me has exaggerated low frequency and some of the Christian acts are the worst offenders.

Fascinating discussion.  BTW I am 50 and I think that is relevant to the conversation regarding "proper" LF (which the drummer is a large part of) placement in the  mix.

Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: Steve M Smith on July 18, 2014, 02:45:21 AM
BTW I am 50 and I think that is relevant to the conversation regarding "proper" LF (which the drummer is a large part of) placement in the  mix.

I am also 50 (or I will be in a couple of months).  I think in a lot of cases our ages show in our responses and preferences.


Steve.
Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: Alex Rigodanzo on July 18, 2014, 07:54:42 AM
I'm also over 50 and I like the kick to feel like getting hit in the chest with a baseball bat. If someone is playing live drums in your living room, that's what the kick feels like. I go to see live music to experience the impact you just cannot get on the "radio". Rhythm is what gets people moving and the rhythm section is bass and drums.
Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: Steve M Smith on July 18, 2014, 08:25:26 AM
I go to see live music to experience the impact you just cannot get on the "radio".

I agree but I also want it to sound like a drum, not a dull thud.


Steve.
Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: Scott Holtzman on July 18, 2014, 10:39:09 AM
I agree but I also want it to sound like a drum, not a dull thud.


Steve.

If I had the hardest hitting drum player in my living room, even with a double base, I would feel impact, and it would be percussive and if the drummer tuned his drums hopefully musical.  We are far beyond simply reproducing the instrument.  I think the effect is more akin to using our bodies as the outside drum head. 

I am at a loss to find the words for what I am trying to describe.

Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: Steve M Smith on July 18, 2014, 11:32:13 AM
I am at a loss to find the words for what I am trying to describe.

I think I know what you mean.  My comment was really based on seeing what was, in 1994, a current chart band, where the sound of the kick drum was unpleasant, as was the feeling you got from it.

I came away from the show with the impression that the engineer was just trying to show off the power of his subs rather than using them musically.


Steve.
Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: John Chiara on July 18, 2014, 11:42:10 AM
I think everyone should get their butts in the studio and learn how to mix music. Almost all live mixers I meet have zero studio experience and it shows. Mixing music like learning an instrument. You need to practice in a situation where you can stop and figure things out. How would the bands sound if the musicians only played their instruments on stage? I can teach a live sound mixer...who actually wants to mix...more in an afternoon in the studio than they would learn in years of doing 'combat audio' where you can't compare results. Managing low end takes practice and an understanding of many variables that need practice to understand. Having a reference is THE most important thing..IMO.
Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: Patrick Tracy on July 18, 2014, 02:23:12 PM
I'm also over 50 and I like the kick to feel like getting hit in the chest with a baseball bat. If someone is playing live drums in your living room, that's what the kick feels like.

Sometimes, sometimes not. It depends on the player and the style. A jazz drummer will sound different from a rock drummer and I'd mix them accordingly.
Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: kel mcguire on July 18, 2014, 02:24:56 PM
  It's somewhat of a curse to be in the mixing business when attending events. Like mentioned above, you have to find some things to enjoy about an act, mix or event sound. The bottom line? It really doesn't matter as much as we think if the mix is off a bit. Sure, grossly whacked out, feedback, super harsh... OK< low tolerance. "No drums" worth a rant?

We're sitting ducks at most events for anyone to voice their opinion, and people do. Soundmen do too. Sometimes it's obvious when someone wanders up to your FOH position with the subtle "hey man, hows it going, I mix for my church... I think you need a little more/less ____" .

In what other line of work is it OK to voice your opinion about someone else's performance? We're like Umpires, when it goes well, we don't get credit, if something is perceived wrong, we hear about it!

You know what the easiest thing to do is? To wander into someone else's event/mix and pick out what's "wrong".  You're not invested in any of the work or challenges involved in the particular event. You've instantly discounted or overlooked the countless other aspects that go into a show, a mix... not even aware of other factors that may have contributed to what you perceive as incompetence or mistakes. The same challenges we face at our events.  A number of things contribute to why a show sounds like it does, no? If I've learned anything from mixing a zillion shows for 30+ years, it is to be a little more empathetic about what may be contributing to my perception of something out of whack.
Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: Scott Holtzman on July 18, 2014, 04:21:54 PM
  It's somewhat of a curse to be in the mixing business when attending events. Like mentioned above, you have to find some things to enjoy about an act, mix or event sound. The bottom line? It really doesn't matter as much as we think if the mix is off a bit. Sure, grossly whacked out, feedback, super harsh... OK< low tolerance. "No drums" worth a rant?

We're sitting ducks at most events for anyone to voice their opinion, and people do. Soundmen do too. Sometimes it's obvious when someone wanders up to your FOH position with the subtle "hey man, hows it going, I mix for my church... I think you need a little more/less ____" .

On the same thought instead of telling someone how to do their job and regaling them with your experience do a little schmoozing.  Make sure you know what kind of system he is running or some trick piece of gear he is using, complement him (or her) on something you liked in the mix and maybe a comment like I see you have the new Acme technologies desuckifier in your rack, how is that working out for you?  You may make a contact and once in a while you will score credentials then how big an ass you make out of yourself is completely within your control.

One more thing not to do, if you are not working a show don't wear your credentials/ AKA resume on a rope.  Nothing says wannabe faster.
In what other line of work is it OK to voice your opinion about someone else's performance? We're like Umpires, when it goes well, we don't get credit, if something is perceived wrong, we hear about it!

You know what the easiest thing to do is? To wander into someone else's event/mix and pick out what's "wrong".  You're not invested in any of the work or challenges involved in the particular event. You've instantly discounted or overlooked the countless other aspects that go into a show, a mix... not even aware of other factors that may have contributed to what you perceive as incompetence or mistakes. The same challenges we face at our events.  A number of things contribute to why a show sounds like it does, no? If I've learned anything from mixing a zillion shows for 30+ years, it is to be a little more empathetic about what may be contributing to my perception of something out of whack.
Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: kel mcguire on July 18, 2014, 04:49:34 PM
Scott, you've camouflaged a comment in there! I agree.

it comes with the job. Commentary. criticisms, suggestions.  Once in a while they are valuable, wake you up to something you may have overlooked.
Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: Alex Rigodanzo on July 18, 2014, 06:02:21 PM
Sometimes, sometimes not. It depends on the player and the style. A jazz drummer will sound different from a rock drummer and I'd mix them accordingly.

I agree completely, but I believe this discussion revolves mostly around "popular" music styles.

As far as criticizing a mix, when you've been at a festival for three days and have heard how good the rig can sound, then a bad mix stands out.
Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: Roland Clarke on July 18, 2014, 06:33:36 PM
We've done a couple of shows with Rucker and I don't recall that much of an imbalance.  I found the mix to be very 'vocal-forward' but the band mix wasn't bad at all.  Perhaps the guy he had back then got fired for over-mixing the band, or artist management got involved - we know what wizards of music and technology most of them are...

Two or 3 times a year we have a run on "I was at the XYZ show and the mix sucked" threads.  I don't hear as many terrible mixes as I did 6 or 7 years ago; pre-recession it seemed like every support act (no matter if they were the 4th support on a 4 band bill) carried a mixerperson.  A few of them were tragically terrible and a few were pretty good, but the bell curve of mediocrity was stuck at the lower end of middle.  These days I hear better mixes, the bell curve seems to be at middle or maybe a little higher.  Up the food chain there are some really good guys and gals mixing and the quality of middle seems better.

I agree with Jay B.... it's not easy to separate the professional from the personal.  It's taken me a long time to ignore audio issues I'm not in control of.

I agree with Tim here, I certainly don't hear so many bad shows these days as I did a number of years back, and at the top end of the game, pretty much all shows are decently mixed.  I also recommend that people keep an open mind as there can be a hundred reasons why a show may not sound as good as it could, for many reasons, everything from bad acoustics/room to monitoring problems to player problems.............
Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: Stefan Maerz on July 18, 2014, 10:30:40 PM
  It's somewhat of a curse to be in the mixing business when attending events. Like mentioned above, you have to find some things to enjoy about an act, mix or event sound. The bottom line? It really doesn't matter as much as we think if the mix is off a bit. Sure, grossly whacked out, feedback, super harsh... OK< low tolerance. "No drums" worth a rant?

We're sitting ducks at most events for anyone to voice their opinion, and people do. Soundmen do too. Sometimes it's obvious when someone wanders up to your FOH position with the subtle "hey man, hows it going, I mix for my church... I think you need a little more/less ____" .

In what other line of work is it OK to voice your opinion about someone else's performance? We're like Umpires, when it goes well, we don't get credit, if something is perceived wrong, we hear about it!

You know what the easiest thing to do is? To wander into someone else's event/mix and pick out what's "wrong".  You're not invested in any of the work or challenges involved in the particular event. You've instantly discounted or overlooked the countless other aspects that go into a show, a mix... not even aware of other factors that may have contributed to what you perceive as incompetence or mistakes. The same challenges we face at our events.  A number of things contribute to why a show sounds like it does, no? If I've learned anything from mixing a zillion shows for 30+ years, it is to be a little more empathetic about what may be contributing to my perception of something out of whack.
Agreed.

And to add to this, sometimes I critique someone's mix without understanding what their sound source(s) are like. If you don't know what they are given, you also don't know what they are doing with what they have been given.
Title: Re: No drums in the mix
Post by: Stefan Maerz on July 18, 2014, 10:31:14 PM
Agreed.

And to add to this, sometimes I critique someone's mix without understanding what their sound source(s) are like. If you don't know what they are given, you also don't know what they are doing with what they have been given.
And by critique, I mean silently in my head. I don't tell people their snare sucks for example.