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Title: Church Sound System
Post by: Chuck Survine on March 11, 2014, 11:14:59 PM
Hello,

I am the new pastor at a baptist Church and really need advice for economically improving our sound performance. I'm not trying to make this a professional studio, but I believe there are one or two good, economical investments we can make that will produce okay results we can live with.

The problem I'm having, is I like a mic that is sensitive and will pick me up anywhere around the pulpit. I don't want to have to eat the mic or speak directly into it, most pulpits I speak at will pick me up without having to do that. I can turn up the mixer input gain and main output levels to get the pulpit mic the way I want it, but we then get tons of feedback, ringing and our musicians say "you're pegging out the equipment". They adjust it and I again have what I call a dead mic that I have to practically eat to get the response I want which makes it tough to read my notes and make eye contact with the congregation. And it's killing my voice having to practically yell to get it to pick me up and who wants to eat a mic for 30 minutes??? I know we can do better...

The Church is small, just 65' x 43' with a 20' wood, steeple ceiling. Our unmanned mixer is a Eurodesk SX3242FX that was recently donated and we have 12 mic's hooked to it that don't have off switches (mostly in the choir stand). We also have a really good digital wireless mic, but again, no one really wants to use it because they turn the gain down so low I have to eat it to get it to respond the way I want. I can turn it up but the musicians again go into their frenzy...  Too add, they play so loud with all their electronic amplification that we have to tell them to turn it down several times during a service because we can't hear the choir or even me speaking at times.

So we have a Eurodesk SX3242FX with 4 speakers total, two large JBL's (I have no idea what the model numbers are because they're embedded up in the front wall) hooked to the mixer main outputs in the front of the sanctuary and two faithful BOSE 802E with active equalizer (I love those little dudes) in the rear facing toward me that are hooked like monitors coming out of AUX SND 1 & 2. The BOSE in the rear are powered by an old Peavey 2600 (stereo) but the two JBL's in the front are wired in parallel and powered by a Peavey 3000 mono amp. So we're really only using one main output from the mixer.

I currently overruled the musicians and have the mixer cranked up because I am getting nodules on my vocal chords (to keep from yelling for 3 services each Sunday), I am getting the mic sensitivity I enjoy and I can speak softly and the mic pic's me up but I had to adjust the 9 band equalizer to combat the feedback which really degraded the tone. Kind of sounds like a booming funnel lol...

I read where a 31 band equalizer would best eliminate the feedback without degrading the tone quality as much but these feedback destroyers look like a good investment also. One of the musicians recommended a compressor to raise my soft speaking and reduce the volume when I'm closing since I generally get pretty worked up by the closing of my sermon.

I also don't understand having to buy to of whatever solution we come up with so there is one for the mains and one for the speakers hooked to the AUX. It really seems there should be a place somewhere in the mixer where we can treat the signal before it branches out into the 4 channels. But the musician that donated the mixer explained about the buses and says it can't be done.

I went to a local store and the guy recommended something like this Driverack PA+ http://www.ebay.com/itm/DBX-DriveRack-PA-Plus-Drive-Rack-pa-Loudspeaker-Management-System-/291099381282?pt=US_Signal_Processors_Rack_Effects&hash=item43c6e00e22 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/DBX-DriveRack-PA-Plus-Drive-Rack-pa-Loudspeaker-Management-System-/291099381282?pt=US_Signal_Processors_Rack_Effects&hash=item43c6e00e22) which would do all the above (EQ, feedback destroyer and compressor). I'm skeptical and can't afford to throw good money after bad since this is other peoples money I'm spending, so I was wondering if someone can provide more food for thought or perhaps suggest a way to work with what we have.

What I like about the Driverack PA+ is that it takes two input signals and outputs six channels so I can hook this to the mains of the mixer and still run all four speakers. What I can't figure out is this crossover business since I would want full sound on each channel.

What say you???
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: David Parker on March 12, 2014, 12:09:32 AM
I am a minister and have been working in live audio for 25 years. it sounds to me like you want to hear yourself, rather than have everyone hear you. You need to assign someone to make sure everyone in the audience can hear you and let them set the level, and forget about that (since you have someone taking care of it) and just preach. You dont need to hear yourself. Also, you need either a headset mic or a lapel mic rather than a podium mic if you want to move around. Again, let someone else set the level.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Ray Aberle on March 12, 2014, 12:17:38 AM
I am a minister and have been working in live audio for 25 years. it sounds to me like you want to hear yourself, rather than have everyone hear you. You need to assign someone to make sure everyone in the audience can hear you and let them set the level, and forget about that (since you have someone taking care of it) and just preach. You dont need to hear yourself. Also, you need either a headset mic or a lapel mic rather than a podium mic if you want to move around. Again, let someone else set the level.
I'm not certain I got "he wants to hear himself" from the post, but rather that he feels that he's not getting the level in the house without shouting into the mic. You mentioned moving around the pulpit-- a lav or e6 capsule in conjunction with your pulpit mic may be beneficial.

It's going to be pretty hard to help over the interwebz-- without seeing things first hand. It seems like some gain structure issues need to be corrected; i.e. you should be able to get appropriate levels of gain from your pulpit mic without killing the rest of the house, and punching a 31-ch EQ onto your channel may help with the shaping of the tone.

Just some thoughts...

-Ray
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Jeff Carter on March 12, 2014, 12:49:31 AM
The problem I'm having, is I like a mic that is sensitive and will pick me up anywhere around the pulpit. I don't want to have to eat the mic or speak directly into it, most pulpits I speak at will pick me up without having to do that. I can turn up the mixer input gain and main output levels to get the pulpit mic the way I want it, but we then get tons of feedback, ringing and our musicians say "you're pegging out the equipment". They adjust it and I again have what I call a dead mic that I have to practically eat to get the response I want which makes it tough to read my notes and make eye contact with the congregation. And it's killing my voice having to practically yell to get it to pick me up and who wants to eat a mic for 30 minutes??? I know we can do better...
Loudest sound at the mic wins...period.  if the reflected PA from the room is louder than your voice, then you get feedback. Is the pulpit mic directional?
Quote
The Church is small, just 65' x 43' with a 20' wood, steeple ceiling. Our unmanned mixer is a Eurodesk SX3242FX that was recently donated and we have 12 mic's hooked to it that don't have off switches (mostly in the choir stand). We also have a really good digital wireless mic, but again, no one really wants to use it because they turn the gain down so low I have to eat it to get it to respond the way I want. I can turn it up but the musicians again go into their frenzy...  Too add, they play so loud with all their electronic amplification that we have to tell them to turn it down several times during a service because we can't hear the choir or even me speaking at times.
Live sound is a constantly changing, dynamic thing. Even a 12-channel mixer won't be entirely "set and forget". You should really have somebody operating the console, and these days there are a ton of resources out there for learning audio (start with the blog contributors in the "church" section of this very site, for example). You're correct that stage volume management is a critical aspect of getting good sound in a small church auditorium.
Quote
So we have a Eurodesk SX3242FX with 4 speakers total, two large JBL's (I have no idea what the model numbers are because they're embedded up in the front wall) hooked to the mixer main outputs in the front of the sanctuary and two faithful BOSE 802E with active equalizer (I love those little dudes) in the rear facing toward me that are hooked like monitors coming out of AUX SND 1 & 2. The BOSE in the rear are powered by an old Peavey 2600 (stereo) but the two JBL's in the front are wired in parallel and powered by a Peavey 3000 mono amp. So we're really only using one main output from the mixer.
If the pulpit mic is turned up in the speakers blasting back toward it, then, well, there's your problem.
Quote
I currently overruled the musicians and have the mixer cranked up because I am getting nodules on my vocal chords (to keep from yelling for 3 services each Sunday), I am getting the mic sensitivity I enjoy and I can speak softly and the mic pic's me up but I had to adjust the 9 band equalizer to combat the feedback which really degraded the tone. Kind of sounds like a booming funnel lol...

I read where a 31 band equalizer would best eliminate the feedback without degrading the tone quality as much but these feedback destroyers look like a good investment also. One of the musicians recommended a compressor to raise my soft speaking and reduce the volume when I'm closing since I generally get pretty worked up by the closing of my sermon.
Even a 31-band graphic EQ is kind of a blunt instrument for feedback reduction. I prefer parametric EQ for that task myself.

A compressor would reduce your volume when closing, but won't do anything to raise your soft speaking--you're already getting feedback when you turn up the gain, so you won't be able to turn it up any louder if you get a compressor.
Quote
I also don't understand having to buy to of whatever solution we come up with so there is one for the mains and one for the speakers hooked to the AUX. It really seems there should be a place somewhere in the mixer where we can treat the signal before it branches out into the 4 channels. But the musician that donated the mixer explained about the buses and says it can't be done.
There's an insert jack on the input strip, so if you only wanted to treat one input (say the pulpit mic) you could insert an EQ on that input only. More commonly, EQ is applied to treat the response of a loudspeaker, in which case you need one channel of EQ for every independent output (in your case, three).
Quote
I went to a local store and the guy recommended something like this Driverack PA+ http://www.ebay.com/itm/DBX-DriveRack-PA-Plus-Drive-Rack-pa-Loudspeaker-Management-System-/291099381282?pt=US_Signal_Processors_Rack_Effects&hash=item43c6e00e22 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/DBX-DriveRack-PA-Plus-Drive-Rack-pa-Loudspeaker-Management-System-/291099381282?pt=US_Signal_Processors_Rack_Effects&hash=item43c6e00e22) which would do all the above (EQ, feedback destroyer and compressor). I'm skeptical and can't afford to throw good money after bad since this is other peoples money I'm spending, so I was wondering if someone can provide more food for thought or perhaps suggest a way to work with what we have.

What I like about the Driverack PA+ is that it takes two input signals and outputs six channels so I can hook this to the mains of the mixer and still run all four speakers. What I can't figure out is this crossover business since I would want full sound on each channel.

What say you???
One of the main functions of a speaker processor like the Driverack is to split a full-range input signal into two (or more) frequency bands for tops and subwoofers. If you don't need that functionality there may well be cheaper options out there. Speaker management is much more of a "set and forget" thing than mixing (in my church, for example, we haven't messed with the speaker processor settings since I started mixing sound five years ago).

Before buying anything, I'd recommend you consult with an audio professional to ensure you're making the most of the equipment you already have. A little operator training can go a long way.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on March 12, 2014, 12:59:44 AM
I have worked with church sound in a somewhat larger auditorium that is acoustically very live and with a preacher that likes to hear himself-and one that likes a hot pulpit mic.  The red flags to me in this situation are "12 mics without switches" and "unmanned desk".  You will never get enough gain before feedback to get the results you want from the pulpit with 12 open mics in the room-just not gonna happen without killing your sound quality with the EQ, even with a 31 band EQ.

We run 8 mics on our choir (probably too many, but it gets the sound we want), but those are the only mics on when they sing-and they are off rest of the time.  Same for other mics-on really only when being used.  Piano mic stays on all the time-but that is it. 
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Mike Scott on March 12, 2014, 07:33:37 AM
One of the things I do is run a small church sound system (maybe a little more complicated than yours but not much).  "Eating the mic" and using a wireless mic is exactly what you need to do whether that is with a handheld mic, lapel mic or headset.  You also need someone to constantly work the mixer during the service and you need to trust them to make you sound the best they can given the room you are in and equipment you have.  And note emphasis here: most importantly you need to have a respectful conversation with yourself and everyone else involved about what you are all trying to do.  This really sounds like a people problem; it's a fairly simple technical fix.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Tim Perry on March 12, 2014, 10:40:35 AM
In addition to the other good advise, turn off the back speakers. This is not surround sound or distributed sound. More is not better.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on March 12, 2014, 11:12:41 AM
Years ago, our pastor started have voice problems.  He changed from a cordless lavalier to a cordless handheld and that made a huge difference.  I learned that I could leave both the pulpit and the handheld on, IF the preacher did not try to use the handheld while standing at the pulpit.  Some preachers did try that so I had to watch. One visiting preacher stands out in my mind-when he realized that both mics were live, he said "I''ve got to get my guys back home to do this" .  He then proceeded to smoothly transition from mic to mic throughout his message.  It takes work on both "ends" of the mic for the best results. 
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: David Parker on March 12, 2014, 11:36:28 AM
Years ago, our pastor started have voice problems.  He changed from a cordless lavalier to a cordless handheld and that made a huge difference.  I learned that I could leave both the pulpit and the handheld on, IF the preacher did not try to use the handheld while standing at the pulpit.  Some preachers did try that so I had to watch. One visiting preacher stands out in my mind-when he realized that both mics were live, he said "I''ve got to get my guys back home to do this" .  He then proceeded to smoothly transition from mic to mic throughout his message.  It takes work on both "ends" of the mic for the best results.
Had a visiting preacher come in one Sunday morning, got up to preach and demanded the monitors be turned on. Then they weren't loud enough. Then he proceeded to chew out the sound man from the pulpit in front of the congregation. Had I been at the soundboard I would have been tempted to turn his mic off and go home.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on March 12, 2014, 01:29:12 PM
Had I been at the soundboard I would have been tempted to turn his mic off and go home.

Been there. The main switch for the system was out of arms reach from FOH for a reason!
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Brad Weber on March 12, 2014, 04:49:14 PM
Our unmanned mixer is a Eurodesk SX3242FX that was recently donated and we have 12 mic's hooked to it that don't have off switches (mostly in the choir stand).
You always want to turn down or even better mute any microphones that aren't actually in use at the time.  You could be losing 10dB of gain before feedback simply due to having all the mics open when you talk.
 
If it is too difficult for someone to turn down or mute all the choir mics individually then maybe all the choir mic inputs to the mixer could all be assigned to a subgroup and then you could adjust the subgroup fader to control the overall choir level, turning the related subgroup fader all the way down whenever the choir is not signing.
 
We also have a really good digital wireless mic, but again, no one really wants to use it because they turn the gain down so low I have to eat it to get it to respond the way I want.
What kind of microphone do you use with the wireless?  If you used it with a headset style mic that gets the microphone closer to your mouth then you may be able to get significantly greater gain before feedback.
 
So we have a Eurodesk SX3242FX with 4 speakers total, two large JBL's (I have no idea what the model numbers are because they're embedded up in the front wall) hooked to the mixer main outputs in the front of the sanctuary and two faithful BOSE 802E with active equalizer (I love those little dudes) in the rear facing toward me that are hooked like monitors coming out of AUX SND 1 & 2. The BOSE in the rear are powered by an old Peavey 2600 (stereo) but the two JBL's in the front are wired in parallel and powered by a Peavey 3000 mono amp. So we're really only using one main output from the mixer.
If any mics are run to the Bose speakers then that could also be adding to the problem.
 
I read where a 31 band equalizer would best eliminate the feedback without degrading the tone quality as much but these feedback destroyers look like a good investment also.
An equalizer could certainly help and might even provide other benefits but in terms of feedback both it and 'feedback destroyers' are often more band-aids rather than addressing the underlying problem.  You might have to consider them as last steps but probably only after addressing some of the other issues.
 
One of the musicians recommended a compressor to raise my soft speaking and reduce the volume when I'm closing since I generally get pretty worked up by the closing of my sermon.
Compressing the peak levels and then adding make-up gain to raise the softer levels could actually make things worse in regard to feedback.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Cosmo on March 12, 2014, 07:12:30 PM

Hello,

I am the new pastor at a baptist Church and really need advice for economically improving our sound performance.

If you scroll down the forums page here at PSW, you will find that there is a Church Sound forum for you church people to post in.  This here Lounge forum is replete with Sinners, which you probably wouldn't be comfortable around, and vice-versa.

Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: John Halliburton on March 12, 2014, 07:37:41 PM
If you scroll down the forums page here at PSW, you will find that there is a Church Sound forum for you church people to post in.  This here Lounge forum is replete with Sinners, which you probably wouldn't be comfortable around, and vice-versa.

Yeah, but us sinners get it done.

Chuck,

Good advice given so far.  I agree that the rear speakers aiming back at the pulpit should go. 

You should be using an earworn type lav mic like stage performers use-see if one can be hooked up with the one "good" wireless mic you say you have.  If you're developing nodules on your vocal cords, getting a decent mic close to  your mouth is your best defense against more damage-as someone else in the thread posted, "the loudest sound at the microphone wins"  You need to use a setup that keeps your voice as the loudest sound at your mic.  Period.

You need someone at the mixer.  Find someone who knows what they're doing.  A dozen open mics, a band, a preacher, and no eq or processing to help manage feedback is a recipe for disaster, on a Behringer mixer with nobody at the helm,  and you're in the middle of it.

Pictures of the install and pulpit, with more details like brand and model of the wireless mic you're not using, the same with the podium mic, etc. will help a lot with getting some help.

Best regards,

John
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Corey Scogin on March 12, 2014, 11:53:46 PM
If you scroll down the forums page here at PSW, you will find that there is a Church Sound forum for you church people to post in.  This here Lounge forum is replete with Sinners, which you probably wouldn't be comfortable around, and vice-versa.

"you church people"?  Seriously?  If you're not going to offer any help, please don't try to start a fire.  I would argue that this topic is not necessarily unique to churches but I agree that it may better suit the H.O.W. forum.  That is for the moderators to decide.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Chuck Survine on March 13, 2014, 12:03:22 AM
I get the gist, instead of throwing money at this, we need to find someone to run the mixer. I think that's good advice and I'll pray the Lord blesses us with one. Until then maybe I can get one of the musicians to go back and mute the unused mics.

All the wired mic's I believe are Shure SH58 and the wireless is a Sennheiser XSW 35.

I would love to get rid of the huge JBL's and move the Bose to the front in their place. I know what the Bose can do from when my father pastored the Church. Back then, they were the only speakers we had with a single Yamaha mixer/amplifier and the system worked tons better than it does with all this stuff the pastor between us put in. I started preaching at this church and the mics were sensitive yet they weren't too loud for our small sanctuary.

The pastor between us was more of a singer. He went and hired professional musicians to fill out "the band" and the folks say "loud" was the only setting the PA had.

As for hearing myself, I forgot to mention I do most of my preaching pacing the isle of the sanctuary. I'm a pacer that rarely stands in the pulpit when preaching but I do use the pulpit mic for pastoral emphasis which is when I would prefer to speak softly. I also dart back up to the pulpit periodically to check my notes. Perhaps with a lapel mic I can put my notes in my bible and take them with me on my pace since I would have both hands free to work them.

I have pictures of the sanctuary but don't see how to post them...
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on March 13, 2014, 08:35:26 AM
If you scroll down the forums page here at PSW, you will find that there is a Church Sound forum for you church people to post in.  This here Lounge forum is replete with Sinners, which you probably wouldn't be comfortable around, and vice-versa.
And us Church people sometimes condescend to help you sinners too.   Thanks for your helpful contribution to this thread.  ::)
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on March 13, 2014, 08:50:29 AM
I get the gist, instead of throwing money at this, we need to find someone to run the mixer. I think that's good advice and I'll pray the Lord blesses us with one. Until then maybe I can get one of the musicians to go back and mute the unused mics.

All the wired mic's I believe are Shure SH58 and the wireless is a Sennheiser XSW 35.

I would love to get rid of the huge JBL's and move the Bose to the front in their place. I know what the Bose can do from when my father pastored the Church. Back then, they were the only speakers we had with a single Yamaha mixer/amplifier and the system worked tons better than it does with all this stuff the pastor between us put in. I started preaching at this church and the mics were sensitive yet they weren't too loud for our small sanctuary.

The pastor between us was more of a singer. He went and hired professional musicians to fill out "the band" and the folks say "loud" was the only setting the PA had.

As for hearing myself, I forgot to mention I do most of my preaching pacing the isle of the sanctuary. I'm a pacer that rarely stands in the pulpit when preaching but I do use the pulpit mic for pastoral emphasis which is when I would prefer to speak softly. I also dart back up to the pulpit periodically to check my notes. Perhaps with a lapel mic I can put my notes in my bible and take them with me on my pace since I would have both hands free to work them.

I have pictures of the sanctuary but don't see how to post them...
Hi Chuck.  Churches look very different from each other, and a lot of messes have been caused by a new party coming in and not understanding the church's ethos - an AV install company, a new music person, a new pastor, etc.  While change is a part of life and churches must continually adapt to serve the needs of their congregation and embrace young people, doing this with a hammer as your previous pastor seems to have done is probably not the best course.

You've gotten some great advice here.  A few thoughts:

- As others have said, gain before feedback is a physics principle related to the relative distance between the mic and the source vs the distance between the mic and the speaker.  Multiple mics that are on with no source - i.e. the band mics, degrade the gain before feedback with no benefit whatsoever, so yes, a sound operator - even one who simply operates the on/off buttons on those mics would make a difference.

- You have a preferred style of hearing yourself as you speak, which comes with challenges and benefits.  The greatest ability for the sound system to reinforce your voice comes from moving the mic element as close as practical to your mouth - either with a discreet headset mic, or a hand-held mic.  Both of those have pros and cons.  A discreet headset mic like a Countryman E6 is visually unobtrusive and leaves your hands free, however it is stuck to your face, and you can't get away from it if you need to cough.  A handheld mic will likely have the best sound quality and freedom for you to use it as a tool, however it requires using a hand.

- Bose 802 speakers are OK, but not great.  JBL speakers range from pretty terrible to fantastic quality.  Setup and deployment is everything.  Finding someone in your area who could come in and consult with you to better understand your needs and talk realistically about what you can achieve may make a significant difference; possibly with little to no new equipment.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on March 13, 2014, 08:53:26 AM
And us Church people sometimes condescend to help you sinners too.   Thanks for your helpful contribution to this thread.  ::)

Entirely agree, I was outraged when I read that post but he doesn't know any better. FYI some churches put out better produced shows then these 'sinners' you speak of...

My advice would be to find out if anyone here is close to you and could possible come out and have a look at what is going on, I know I  would do it at the drop of a hat for any local church around here and there are a few good people out there, otherwise any money spent getting professional advice is money well spent, don't throw money at solutions if you do not understand what you are doing.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Brad Weber on March 13, 2014, 08:59:57 AM
I would love to get rid of the huge JBL's and move the Bose to the front in their place. I know what the Bose can do from when my father pastored the Church. Back then, they were the only speakers we had with a single Yamaha mixer/amplifier and the system worked tons better than it does with all this stuff the pastor between us put in. I started preaching at this church and the mics were sensitive yet they weren't too loud for our small sanctuary.
Just keep in mind that with any speakers it is not just the speaker but how it is located, aimed, tuned, etc. that determines the results.  Simply sticking any particular brand or model of speaker in a space does not guarantee good results no matter how good or bad the speaker.
 
As far as how things were, consider what might be different.  Did your Father go out in the congregation as you do, did you have speakers on the rear wall, did you have choir mics and so on?  Don't expect the same results as you recall unless everything is the same.

As for hearing myself, I forgot to mention I do most of my preaching pacing the isle of the sanctuary. I'm a pacer that rarely stands in the pulpit when preaching but I do use the pulpit mic for pastoral emphasis which is when I would prefer to speak softly. I also dart back up to the pulpit periodically to check my notes. Perhaps with a lapel mic I can put my notes in my bible and take them with me on my pace since I would have both hands free to work them.
I see two potential factors there likely adding to your problem.  One is having your microphone out in the coverage of the main speakers.  If you want to do that without feedback you may need to be open to using a headset style microphone.  The other is your potentially being picked up by both a lapel/lav microphone and the pulpit mic.  Another place where you'd want someone to turn down or mute one of the mics.
 
To be blunt, the causes of your issues with the sound system appear to greatly relate to the system operation and use.  Directly addressing those is likely to be more effective than adding other equipment.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Jeff Foster on March 13, 2014, 11:43:28 AM
If you scroll down the forums page here at PSW, you will find that there is a Church Sound forum for you church people to post in.  This here Lounge forum is replete with Sinners, which you probably wouldn't be comfortable around, and vice-versa.

And us Church people sometimes condescend to help you sinners too.   Thanks for your helpful contribution to this thread.  ::)

"you church people"?  Seriously?  If you're not going to offer any help, please don't try to start a fire.  I would argue that this topic is not necessarily unique to churches but I agree that it may better suit the H.O.W. forum.  That is for the moderators to decide.

Entirely agree, I was outraged when I read that post but he doesn't know any better. FYI some churches put out better produced shows then these 'sinners' you speak of...

Wow.  People get worked up over stuff very quickly.  I didn't read any offense in that first comment and I'm one of those "Church people".  I thought it was kind of funny.  I guess it just shows that you can't really read emotions in printed text.

As to the original post, I agree with all the points that have been made, but would like to add something.  You might do well to ask nearby churches if they have a good sound person on staff.  If so, see if they might be willing to come in and help correct some of the issues with your system.  We "church people" often enjoy helping others like that, though you may want to offer a free meal or something similar out of courtesy.  There are a lot of churches with very good sound techs as volunteers or even on staff.  I know some church sound guys that are every bit as good as the sound guys here in the "sinners" forum.  Heck, that's why some of us hang out here too.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 13, 2014, 11:47:21 AM
If you scroll down the forums page here at PSW, you will find that there is a Church Sound forum for you church people to post in.  This here Lounge forum is replete with Sinners, which you probably wouldn't be comfortable around, and vice-versa.
One thing that people who are not in the Church market do not understand is that the Church market (at least here in the US) is the largest market.

Just go to any trade show and see how many people are talking "Churches".

There are waayyy more Churches than most people realize and some of them use some serious production-that any nightclub would LOVE to have.

For most of the largest manufacturers, the install business is somewhere around 70% of their business and the majority of that is Churches.

Yes the "live and club guys" would like to think they are most important-but in reality the most money is in the install side of things.

A lot of the technology crosses over and the basic principals are the same for Churches as they are for nightclub setups.

Most Churches have portable systems-some a good number of portable systems.

Yes there are some "church specific" issues that are different-but overall the same ideas/goals are the same.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 13, 2014, 11:55:36 AM

Yes there are some "church specific" issues that are different-but overall the same ideas/goals are the same.

Issues that are "church specific" or "nightclub specific" tend to exist mostly in the gray matter of the person speaking.

The rest of the issues are psychodrama from control freaks and the feeble minded, neither of which are limited to a specific use or venue, although the church-oriented types tend to use spiritual blackmail and exhibit a higher incidence of passive-aggressive tendencies.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: David Parker on March 13, 2014, 05:14:18 PM
Wow.  People get worked up over stuff very quickly.  I didn't read any offense in that first comment and I'm one of those "Church people".  I thought it was kind of funny.  I guess it just shows that you can't really read emotions in printed text.

As to the original post, I agree with all the points that have been made, but would like to add something.  You might do well to ask nearby churches if they have a good sound person on staff.  If so, see if they might be willing to come in and help correct some of the issues with your system.  We "church people" often enjoy helping others like that, though you may want to offer a free meal or something similar out of courtesy.  There are a lot of churches with very good sound techs as volunteers or even on staff.  I know some church sound guys that are every bit as good as the sound guys here in the "sinners" forum.  Heck, that's why some of us hang out here too.

I'm one of those sinners, but I'm saved by grace. Ordained Baptist minister and I work club bands. I don't drink and I don't condemn those who do. I did 15+ years working my sound company doing church gigs, quite often national level Christian artists playing local churches and festival, concerts, etc. Lots of church camps. Last 5 years I've been working for cover tune bands in local clubs. Club work is easier than church work. I'm in the process of easing out of club land right now, concentrating on my nursing home ministries. And if any church needed help with a situation like the one in this thread, I'd be there in a heartbeat just to help.

I went on one such expedition a few years back, I forget the complaint, but what I found was that the sound man wasn't hearing the mains at all, he was hearing the monitors. They had 9 wedges on stage, some 15+horn and some 12+horn, 8' in front of a sheetrock wall. All the sound man was hearing was slapback from the monitors. Their music minister didn't believe me until I muted the mains and showed him. There wasn't a solution, because if he turned the wedges down, the musicians and singer's squawked. So they continued to suffer bad sound.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: David Parker on March 13, 2014, 05:16:01 PM
Issues that are "church specific" or "nightclub specific" tend to exist mostly in the gray matter of the person speaking.

The rest of the issues are psychodrama from control freaks and the feeble minded, neither of which are limited to a specific use or venue, although the church-oriented types tend to use spiritual blackmail and exhibit a higher incidence of passive-aggressive tendencies.

having worked both I can attest that this is absolutely true!
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Stu McDoniel on March 13, 2014, 09:57:44 PM
If you scroll down the forums page here at PSW, you will find that there is a Church Sound forum for you church people to post in.  This here Lounge forum is replete with Sinners, which you probably wouldn't be comfortable around, and vice-versa.
God Loves the sinner but hates sin :)
Turn off the back loudspeakers.  Get a Sabine feedback destroyer.
Turn it down to the point of gain before feedback.
Keep it simple
Also consider a Lapel mic and follow the instructions on where
to clip it on yourself.
Again...turn it down
God Bless
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Tim Perry on March 13, 2014, 10:33:00 PM
I have pictures of the sanctuary but don't see how to post them...

To post a picture you need to make sure it's file size is relatively small. One way to do this is start to send the picture as an e-mail attachment. Assuming you are using Windows, it will ask you if you want smaller, small, medium, large , or original. pick medium or large and hit attach. You do not have to send this. Just right click and save as.. rename to a friendly name and save it in my pictures (or some place you can find it)

Then when creating the post click attachments and options at the bottom. browse to the small picture and select it.  If it just wont work it probably still is too large.

Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Tim Perry on March 13, 2014, 10:47:07 PM
For example here is a pre-show picture of the chapel at Colgate University where I had the pleasure of providing for a group called Walt Whitman and the Soul children of Chicago.

Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Chuck Survine on March 15, 2014, 09:56:41 PM
As to the original post, I agree with all the points that have been made, but would like to add something.  You might do well to ask nearby churches if they have a good sound person on staff.  If so, see if they might be willing to come in and help correct some of the issues with your system.  We "church people" often enjoy helping others like that, though you may want to offer a free meal or something similar out of courtesy.  There are a lot of churches with very good sound techs as volunteers or even on staff.  I know some church sound guys that are every bit as good as the sound guys here in the "sinners" forum.  Heck, that's why some of us hang out here too.

What a great thought, I was at a funeral this week and the church had a sound guy that seemed to know what he was doing. He had the mic just like I like it by my second word. I didn't have to speak directly into it and it picked up my every word. I like to reserve speaking directly into the mic as my personal effect. I either whisper into it and say, "did I say that out loud" or I can yell into it for an effect I control..

I will be back at that church in a couple of weeks to speak so I can ask him if he can help or if he knows someone. I hesitate to ask just anyone since churches seem to embolden some who think you're a push over.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Chuck Survine on March 15, 2014, 10:06:19 PM
As far as how things were, consider what might be different.  Did your Father go out in the congregation as you do, did you have speakers on the rear wall, did you have choir mics and so on?

The BOSE speakers were where the JBL's are now and no, my father usually stood at the podium and preached. I should add that the church is small. I generally preach mid week service without turning on the PA. Which is why in my view we don't need 400 watts and 4 large speakers except for the fact that the band gets pretty loud with their amps...

If you want to do that without feedback you may need to be open to using a headset style microphone.  The other is your potentially being picked up by both a lapel/lav microphone and the pulpit mic.  Another place where you'd want someone to turn down or mute one of the mics.

I've eliminated the feedback using the 9 band equalizer on the mixer but it sounds like a funnel since from my research 9 band is like 1/2 octave which is why I considered a 31 band EQ or feedback destroyer.
 
To be blunt, the causes of your issues with the sound system appear to greatly relate to the system operation and use.  Directly addressing those is likely to be more effective than adding other equipment.

Agreed, perhaps having someone to turn off the unused mic's might mean readjusting the 9 band EQ on the mixer which might eliminate the need to do anything else...

I appreciate all the advice everyone, I'm going to through brains at the problem before money since brains are in a patient supply but money, not so much lol...
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Thomas Le on March 16, 2014, 03:28:43 PM
Had a visiting preacher come in one Sunday morning, got up to preach and demanded the monitors be turned on. Then they weren't loud enough. Then he proceeded to chew out the sound man from the pulpit in front of the congregation. Had I been at the soundboard I would have been tempted to turn his mic off and go home.

That feeling is so infuriating, it's really unprofessional from the clergy. I was in a similar situation about two years ago and I was just about to quit doing sound at a local church I attend but the music ministry needed my help since they don't have anyone else with my level of expertise. So consider this "the last straw", if the pastor or any other clergymen piss me off during the service again because I couldn't get his mic "how he likes it", I would turn off his mic and go home as described above.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 16, 2014, 03:44:51 PM
That feeling is so infuriating, it's really unprofessional from the clergy. I was in a similar situation about two years ago and I was just about to quit doing sound at a local church I attend but the music ministry needed my help since they don't have anyone else with my level of expertise. So consider this "the last straw", if the pastor or any other clergymen piss me off during the service again because I couldn't get his mic "how he likes it", I would turn off his mic and go home as described above.

Because we all know, 'the Word' requires a sound system with vocal subwoofers and ear splitting monitors.

I'm not joking.  I did a conference where we ended up with a drum monitor package for the pulpit.  The preacher had to feel his voice.  Getting the monitors and FOH to play nice was less successful, but his happiness on stage was a higher priority.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 16, 2014, 03:52:25 PM
Because we all know, 'the Word' requires a sound system with vocal subwoofers and ear splitting monitors.

I'm not joking.  I did a conference where we ended up with a drum monitor package for the pulpit.  The preacher had to feel his voice.  Getting the monitors and FOH to play nice was less successful, but his happiness on stage was a higher priority.
It is sad-but this is SO true.

There are many that are "all about themselves" and don't care about anybody else or how well they hear or their experience.

If we could turn down the monitors a bit it will sound better out front-but they don't want to hear it.  Somehow they want the laws of physics repelled in "their house" and the lowly soundperson is the one tasked to do it.

I have actually had some Pastors tell me they want the congregations "ears to bleed" so they feel the pain of the message.

That is not my type of sermon--------------
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Chris Hindle on March 16, 2014, 04:07:15 PM
It is sad-but this is SO true.

There are many that are "all about themselves" and don't care about anybody else or how well they hear or their experience.
Not Church related, but once had a fly-in "artist" on my stage. We filled the "shopping list" of processors on his rider. As I was micing up the drum kit, he tells me "Don't worry about him, it's not important". O.K..........
I took a further 2 minutes to finish the kit, and the drummer had this stupid smile on his face the whole time.  (I had no clue why)

Setting the monitors for superstar took about 45 minutes. A bit more of the SPX90, a little more compression, a little less of the Roland, more top end, on and on....
After he was happy with the wedges, I asked what he wanted in the house.
His answer..................



wait for it...............




"Do what you want, I don't care."

At the end of the gig, the drummer came up to me and said " Dude, you made my day. First show in years where I felt I contributed to the performance".
Don't know about you all,  but if someone is on stage, aren't they supposed to be heard ??
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 16, 2014, 04:20:24 PM
Don't know about you all,  but if someone is on stage, aren't they supposed to be heard ??

Ask Marcel Marceau.... (figuratively, since he passed away in 2007)
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: David Parker on March 16, 2014, 04:42:14 PM
That feeling is so infuriating, it's really unprofessional from the clergy. I was in a similar situation about two years ago and I was just about to quit doing sound at a local church I attend but the music ministry needed my help since they don't have anyone else with my level of expertise. So consider this "the last straw", if the pastor or any other clergymen piss me off during the service again because I couldn't get his mic "how he likes it", I would turn off his mic and go home as described above.
The job of the sound man in a church is to make sure the audience can hear the preacher. It's the preacher's job to preach. I've had singers out in front of the mains tell me to turn it up. I don't, because it's the level it's supposed to be, and I am in charge of that, not them. If they are behind the monitors and want them turned up, I'll do that, but if they are in front of the mains, those are mine, I'm in charge.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 16, 2014, 04:55:04 PM
Ask Marcel Marceau.... (figuratively, since he passed away in 2007)
Except in Mel Brooks "silent movie" in which Marcel was the ONLY person who had a speaking part.

I love how ironic that was  BRILLIANT!!!!
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on March 16, 2014, 05:48:45 PM
I ran sound for a preacher who insisted on loud monitors for 18 years-and I managed to never walk out over monitor volume.  It was frustrating because at times he would say "the monitors are not on"-yet I had sound checked and they were set the same as the previous service.  I could go on with other scenarios-but you get the idea.  I always felt and feel that the pastor was in charge of the service, I was simply helping him be heard-after all another name for PA is sound re-enforcement.

Over the years I observed a few things.  He preached out fairly often-and the monitors were "off" more often when he had been out of town.  It was a change he was noticing, but did not know really what was different.  Also, our back "wall" is made up up 4 hardwood roll up doors total about 50 feet wide and 16 feet tall.  A very good vocalist told me at times he had to struggle to keep from singing with the "echo".  I am guessing at times the "echo" was masking the sound from the monitors.  Other times, with visiting speakers I learned to turn to monitors down to get more volume-when the monitors dropped they spoke up and got in the mic.  The man that is now our pastor often would dominate groups he sang with-I learned to bump his monitor up-to get him to back off and mix in with the group better.  Sometimes the "sound guy" has to decipher what is really happening-after all that is your area of expertise. right?

I am sure I have broken many "rules" over the years-but routinely received compliments on sound from visitors-both in the congregation and speakers.  Yes it takes patience and sometimes a thick skin.  But if it was easy, anybody could do it-and if a job is worth doing, it is worth doing with all your might. 
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 16, 2014, 06:02:37 PM
The man that is now our pastor often would dominate groups he sang with-I learned to bump his monitor up-to get him to back off and mix in with the group better.  Sometimes the "sound guy" has to decipher what is really happening-after all that is your area of expertise. right?


That is one of the hard things about being a sound person.

Trying to figure out what the performers are ACTUALLY wanting/needing-NOT what they are saying they want.

If you do everything exactly how they say it-in many cases you will end up with a mess.

Sometimes we have to fool them.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on March 16, 2014, 07:00:06 PM
That is one of the hard things about being a sound person.

Sometimes we have to fool them.

Turnabout is fair play...
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 16, 2014, 08:28:01 PM
Turnabout is fair play...
How many times have you had a musician ask for something-that you can't do-yet you "pretend" to do something and all of a sudden they are happy.

Or they ask for "more treble on the guitar" and before you can touch the knob they say "Thats fine". 

They fool themselves------------
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Chuck Survine on March 16, 2014, 09:12:12 PM
I may can add some insight from the other side of this discussion...

It's a reflex action to speak louder and more aggressively anytime we don't hear ourselves. The thought is, if I don't hear myself then others don't hear me either. Not just in church, that's true anywhere, anytime. Even in a crowd, you speak up if you don't hear yourself because your mind is telling your mouth that what it needs to do to be heard. And we speak to be heard. You see it here on the board, people get more aggressive or are willing to walk out on the preacher because you feel like you're not being heard.

When the monitor is down, it doesn't matter how loud you speak, we still don't' hear ourselves. Isn't that the point of the monitor, so we can hear ourselves??? Why have it there if you can't hear it??? And I don't mean strain to hear it or have to concentrate or focus to hear it, I mean hear it while I do my thing.

If you speak louder and still don't hear yourself, then it's frustrating since you've done all you can do and you wish you can get others, in this case the sound man, to work with you and not against you toward the common goal of delivering a good message. The preacher has enough on his mind while preaching so the last thing he needs when trying to reach the unsaved and edify the saints, is to have this feeling in the back of his mind that he's not being heard. Entertain him, give him some monitor so he can hear himself and take that off his mind so he can then get comfortable and focus on the Word. Will it kill you to do that?

When you're yelling as loud as you can and still don't' hear yourself, you say to yourself, this is going to be a long day...  Most of us preachers know it doesn't have to be this way. After all, we spend tons of money on sound systems so it can do the work and not our voices.

I preach at least twice each Sunday and sometimes up to 4 times and here is what I've noticed, today the PA is still set the way I set it which makes our musicians mad but I came home, went to dinner with the wife and up watching Gunsmoke. When the PA is like they want it, to where the meters don't peg etc...  I come home, hit the couch and go right to sleep. I will be completely wiped. I'm also hoarse for the next couple of days. Today, not even a hit of hoarseness because the mic did the work...

Try doing it yourself, speak at the top of your voice for an hour and you may have more appreciation to what the preachers is saying to you. He's saying if he can only hear himself, not if others can hear you, if you can only hear yourself, the natural instinct to speak up won't happen and trust me, we know the difference at the end of the day. A poor or low sound system is a preacher killer...

I can see the prevailing attitude here is trust your sound man. But the truth is two fold, speaking up is a natural reaction and not something "trusting the sound man" can eliminate overnight and if the message get's ruined, if the word doesn't come across, if I yell to the point I lose my voice and have two more services to preach that day, no one ever blames the sound man. They're going to blame us, the preacher.

I have finished preaching and been told, "you need to speak up, we could hardly hear you" or "I missed that part, what did you say etc..." Again, no one blames the sound man, the preacher takes that one the chin and why, because we didn't buy enough amps, because we didn't buy a good enough mixer, no, we take that one on the chin knowing the sound man could have turn it up a bit. The members after all think the preacher is in charge so they wonder why we don't get that sound man strait. They don't say anything to the sound man, they tell the preacher and expect us to fix the sound man. In the mean time they tell you good job etc...

This isn't a dig at the sound man but a fact. I'm just hoping you can see the other side for a minute. It's hard enough spending 30 or 40 hours preparing a message to have it come back void because you thought you weren't being heard so you started yelling and killed your voice...

Chris, I believe that's what the superstar was trying to say, it's not that he doesn't care but he knows he's going to work hard all night if he doesn't hear himself. And he will try to compensate with this voice if he doesn't hear himself the way the thinks he should sound. So he makes sure his volume is the way he likes it and the sound man can take care of the rest because when the show goes live he'll be in his zone and regardless of anyone else, he wants that zone to be the way HE wants it. Now HE's comfortable which allows him to perform at his best.

And after 45 minutes just getting his monitor adjusted, do you really want his input adjusting the drums and others speakers???  This isn't an excuse for being rude or disrespectful to the sound man but do know the preacher is under a lot of pressure. No one ever joined a church or committed their life to Christ because of the sound man. And what makes tithers come back every week, the preacher....  Well, the chior but we preachers like to think we had something to do with it and the choir needs the sound system also lolol...  And if the preacher doesn't fill the seats, there won't be a need for the sound man so you really ought to work with him and not against him. So in a sense it is all about them, they're the main attraction and what we do is for the Lord so we do all we can to be at our best.

so even if you have to fool me, I prefer being fooled into my comfort zone so I can then focus on the preaching the Word than to spend my entire message thinking, "I wish that sound man would turn up my monitor so I can stop yelling into this mic". With me it's mic sensitivity, I have to have my mic where it pics me up without me speaking directly into it. Anything less than that and my mind won't fully engage into delivering the message...  I guess we all have our quirks...
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Chuck Survine on March 16, 2014, 09:15:37 PM
How many times have you had a musician ask for something-that you can't do-yet you "pretend" to do something and all of a sudden they are happy.

Or they ask for "more treble on the guitar" and before you can touch the knob they say "Thats fine". 

They fool themselves------------

I go to a Church in SF and the sound guy there gives me an ear-bud because in his words, he can't get the monitors the say I want it. After a couple of years of this I learned he gives everyone the ear-bud...  I thought it was just for me lol...  It worked...

But I also learned that turning up the mic to him means turning up the volume in my ear-bud...
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: David Parker on March 16, 2014, 09:42:34 PM
you can hear yourself when you talk. What is drowning you out? The monitors do not help the audience hear. I've done events where the music artist was also the speaker. Amazing how much better the spoken word is when I turn the monitors off quite often. So the artist/speaker had me turn the monitors back on because he wanted to hear himself IN THE MONITORS. then his voice sounded bad because of all the bounce of the monitors off the back wall. Assign someone to make sure everyone can hear, tell the audience if they can't hear to talk to him. Give him(or her) responsibility AND authority. LEARN to let the mic do the work and never lose your voice. You don't need to hear yourself in the PA. If I can do it you can too.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Jeff Carter on March 16, 2014, 09:50:04 PM
so even if you have to fool me, I prefer being fooled into my comfort zone so I can then focus on the preaching the Word than to spend my entire message thinking, "I wish that sound man would turn up my monitor so I can stop yelling into this mic". With me it's mic sensitivity, I have to have my mic where it pics me up without me speaking directly into it. Anything less than that and my mind won't fully engage into delivering the message...  I guess we all have our quirks...

Do you want to hear your monitor or do you want a mic sensitive enough to pick you up if you're not speaking directly into it? Physics is a harsh mistress and she won't allow you to have both.

Personally, I've always found it far easier to make spoken words intelligible to the congregation when I'm not fighting a whole bunch of mud coming off the back of monitor wedges on stage.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on March 16, 2014, 10:29:48 PM
I may can add some insight from the other side of this discussion...

It's a reflex action to speak louder and more aggressively anytime we don't hear ourselves. The thought is, if I don't hear myself then others don't hear me either. Not just in church, that's true anywhere, anytime. Even in a crowd, you speak up if you don't hear yourself because your mind is telling your mouth that what it needs to do to be heard.

Chuck...

As someone who at times has earned a living playing music on street corners around the world, I'd like to speak to your issues:

For centuries, people have successfully and effectively spoken to crowds...large crowds...of people without the aid of monitors or microphones.  If you're wearing out your voice even with a microphone, you're doing something wrong.

Find a professional voice coach and learn how to project effectively without damaging your instrument. Stop blaming others for your lack of professionalism.

Or just buy yourself one of the "more me" personal monitor units from Rolls, plug your mic into it and run your own ear bud(s).
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Chuck Survine on March 17, 2014, 01:23:58 AM
you can hear yourself when you talk. What is drowning you out?

The audience, the music, or psychologically you expect to hear yourself through the PA. That is why I'm holding a mic.

The monitors do not help the audience hear.


Exactly, but they do help me hear me...

I've done events where the music artist was also the speaker. Amazing how much better the spoken word is when I turn the monitors off quite often.

To who, you or the speaker. I guess that's my point, you might like it but I'm sure the speaker didn't.

So the artist/speaker had me turn the monitors back on because he wanted to hear himself IN THE MONITORS. then his voice sounded bad because of all the bounce of the monitors off the back wall.

Again, that's my point, he wanted to hear himself. You might have noticed something you thought was bad but I wonder who else noticed???

When you go to a restaurant, do you want the food seasoned to the likings of the chef, or you? Do you want your steak cooked to the likings of the cook, or you? That's all I'm trying to say, I have the mic, can't we make it to my likings, at least while I'm using the mic and when you use the mic by all means make it the way you like...
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Chuck Survine on March 17, 2014, 01:29:03 AM
Do you want to hear your monitor or do you want a mic sensitive enough to pick you up if you're not speaking directly into it? Physics is a harsh mistress and she won't allow you to have both.

Actually, you can have both or at least a good compromise. My understanding a good EQ can incapacitate most feedback then you can turn the mic's up all the way without feedback. That's the theory and it's kind of what I have going on now bu with a 9 band EQ I am hurting too many frequencies. They say a 31 band EQ will do less harm.

Personally, I've always found it far easier to make spoken words intelligible to the congregation when I'm not fighting a whole bunch of mud coming off the back of monitor wedges on stage.

I totally understand your point, but I was speaking from the viewpoint of the person on the stage. If you don't hear yourself, it's natural to compensate and that compensating kills you physically and mentally disturbs your message. Perhaps there is a happy medium...
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Chuck Survine on March 17, 2014, 02:11:48 AM
Chuck...

As someone who at times has earned a living playing music on street corners around the world, I'd like to speak to your issues:

For centuries, people have successfully and effectively spoken to crowds...large crowds...of people without the aid of monitors or microphones.  If you're wearing out your voice even with a microphone, you're doing something wrong.

Could very well be but a little more mic seems to fix it. We're all built a little differently. We have a preacher with a deep baritone voice that can go without the mic for days on end. I don't happen to be him. I am normally a quite person and don't say much unless I have something that really needs saying. I guess because of that, preaching is the most work my voice gets... But point well taken...

Find a professional voice coach and learn how to project effectively without damaging your instrument. Stop blaming others for your lack of professionalism.

I have one as part of the therapy for the nodules. Her advice, in addition to warming up my voice before speaking, is to let the PA do the work. She agrees I am straining my voice so told me to forget those musicians, turn up the PA.

Or just buy yourself one of the "more me" personal monitor units from Rolls, plug your mic into it and run your own ear bud(s).

For some reason, I thought that's why we spent all that money on the PA??? Should we not buy monitors and get ear buds instead???

I guess this is where I'm coming from, we know the PA CAN do it because if you turn it up it does what we want just fine with room to spare. The question is why do the sound guys want to turn it down??? They say it sounds better but to whom, no one can hear it and everyone on the other end of the system (at the mic end) complains??? So why not figure out how to readjust the monitors etc...  so that it sounds good turned up instead of turning it down to the discomfort of the users???

It's like having a 400hp motor but your mechanic keeps tuning it down saying you don't need all that power. But you're saying, "I paid for 400hp for a reason. I could have saved a lot of money if I only wanted 200hp". But your mechanic don't listen to you, he tunes it down and tells you how your motor will last for ever like this...  And how much better the rest of the car performs at 200hp... 

That's what a lot of sound guys do in my view, we buy tons of power and they turn it down and say, "don't that sound great???"  And I'm thinking, "if it's so great, why am I losing my voice yelling for 45 minutes"...  We obviously have a different view of great...

Like I said, fool me, turn the rest of the PA off but turn my monitors up so I can hear myself and you'll never get a complaint out of me. The folks in the back might complain, but I would be content....

But then again I preach mostly in the isles so for me it's not as much about the monitors. I can hear myself, but I have to shove the mic down my throat to do it which doesn't make sense when I know I can have better. Right now our PA is up the way I like it and no feedback. Not even a slight ring. And that's with 12 mic's running wide open.

I got nothing but compliments for the two sermons I preached today. In my view, the difference was I comfortable and got into my zone because I wasn't fighting to hear myself and didn't have to eat the mic for 45 minutes... I was relaxed, made jokes, lots of eye contact and at one point laid down in the isle to show David was still in his tomb... You can't imagine what a difference the mic makes to the preacher until you've gotten on his end of the PA. Try it sometime and see don't you agree...
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: David Parker on March 17, 2014, 11:18:12 AM
Peter preached the first Christian sermon without a microphone and 3000 got saved in one day.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Jeff Carter on March 17, 2014, 11:23:46 AM
Actually, you can have both or at least a good compromise. My understanding a good EQ can incapacitate most feedback then you can turn the mic's up all the way without feedback. That's the theory and it's kind of what I have going on now bu with a 9 band EQ I am hurting too many frequencies. They say a 31 band EQ will do less harm.
EQ isn't a panacea for feedback, sorry. You can try to EQ out one (or maybe two) nasty resonances if you like, but as soon as you try to push the gain up some other frequency will take off instead. You'll probably get a few extra dB at most, at the expense of hacking up the quality of sound in the monitors (which admittedly may not matter to you).

Loudest sound at the mic is going to win, EQ or no. If you want a monitor, you have to accept being close to the mic, end of story.

I totally understand your point, but I was speaking from the viewpoint of the person on the stage. If you don't hear yourself, it's natural to compensate and that compensating kills you physically and mentally disturbs your message. Perhaps there is a happy medium...

I would say the vast majority of pastors I encounter prefer *not* to hear themselves, actually. Our auditorium shape tends to reflect PA sound back onto the stage quite efficiently (I consider this a bug rather than a feature). During sound check, I always push the pastor's mic pretty hard to make sure I have plenty of gain available if needed... Out of a sample of a couple dozen people, not one of them has liked hearing his/her own voice coming reflecting back off the wall.

When you go to a restaurant, do you want the food seasoned to the likings of the chef, or you? Do you want your steak cooked to the likings of the cook, or you? That's all I'm trying to say, I have the mic, can't we make it to my likings, at least while I'm using the mic and when you use the mic by all means make it the way you like...
In this analogy, I would say the pastor is the chef, not the diner. Your preference of how you want to hear yourself should be secondary to getting good, intelligible sound out to the congregation so they can effortlessly hear your message.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: David Parker on March 17, 2014, 11:31:38 AM

In this analogy, I would say the pastor is the chef, not the diner. Your preference of how you want to hear yourself should be secondary to getting good, intelligible sound out to the congregation so they can effortlessly hear your message.
exactly. Where is the servant mentality Jesus taught us? Sounds like a pride issue.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 17, 2014, 12:10:46 PM
exactly. Where is the servant mentality Jesus taught us? Sounds like a pride issue.

Or we admit that the 10am GodShow is just that, a show for folks who share the same spiritual beliefs, and that the preachers, musicians and lay staff are cast members and we focus on delivering the show no matter how much humility or diva conduct comes with it.  But never forget that we're about as far from the sermon on the mount as we can be...

Or we can admit that church is mostly a big feel-good commercial to sell a particular brand or flavor of faith.

Once you reduce the service to fundamental *conduct* (not principles), you pretty much have one or the other, and some times you have both.

"We're show people, so let's put on a show!"  Shirley Temple.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Brad Weber on March 17, 2014, 12:22:44 PM
When you go to a restaurant, do you want the food seasoned to the likings of the chef, or you? Do you want your steak cooked to the likings of the cook, or you? That's all I'm trying to say, I have the mic, can't we make it to my likings, at least while I'm using the mic and when you use the mic by all means make it the way you like...
Who is the chef and cook in your analogy?  Is your role serving or being served?
 
I'm sure anyone running your system would be happy to try to fulfill your wishes but they probably have to balance your goals with the wishes of others and what physics allows.  You ask about others seeing your perspective, perhaps you also need to try to see theirs.
 
I believe that your problem is not that you can't achieve what you want but that you may not be able to achieve it in the way you apparently want.  If you used a wireless mic with a headset style microphone and the mic placed close to your mouth along with a wireless in-ear monitor then you could probably turn yourself way up in your monitor mix and not only not get feedback but also allow the level for the congregation be adjusted as best serves them without it affecting you (or you affecting them) so much.  But unless you are willing and able to employ such measures then physics may dictate what is possible.
 
Actually, you can have both or at least a good compromise. My understanding a good EQ can incapacitate most feedback then you can turn the mic's up all the way without feedback. That's the theory and it's kind of what I have going on now bu with a 9 band EQ I am hurting too many frequencies. They say a 31 band EQ will do less harm.
Getting technical, feedback is when the loop gain exceeds unity or in simpler terms when the sound from the PA at a microphone is louder than that sound naturally at that microphone.  So if you try to hear your voice louder than it is naturally at your mic then chances are good that it will be more difficult to avoid feedback.
 
It gets more complicated in that feedback tends to be frequency related as well.  You don't necessarily need to understand all the details but as you physically move around the physical relationship of the PA sound sources to one another and to your microphone keep changing, resulting in the frequencies that may be causing feedback also varying.  A frequency that does not cause feedback at one location may cause feedback at another location, perhaps even just a few inches away, and vice versa.  So the potential benefits of static equalization on increasing gain before feedback may be limited due to your apparent tendency to move around.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: David Parker on March 17, 2014, 12:30:21 PM
Or we admit that the 10am GodShow is just that, a show for folks who share the same spiritual beliefs, and that the preachers, musicians and lay staff are cast members and we focus on delivering the show no matter how much humility or diva conduct comes with it.  But never forget that we're about as far from the sermon on the mount as we can be...

Or we can admit that church is mostly a big feel-good commercial to sell a particular brand or flavor of faith.

Once you reduce the service to fundamental *conduct* (not principles), you pretty much have one or the other, and some times you have both.

"We're show people, so let's put on a show!"  Shirley Temple.
I was recently the victim of a "witchhunt" at the church where I was music minister for 20 years. If they'd told me they wanted a younger face so as to relate to a younger audience, I could have accepted that, but the comments went along the lines that the Holy Spirit couldn't move unless the music was like they wanted it. Amazingly, of all the instances in the bible of the Holy Spirit moving, none of them had music involved. Nor PA systems. As you "hint", the church needs to get back to basics and stop trying to attract a crowd with a "show", all the while catering to prima donnas who put on the show.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Mike Scott on March 17, 2014, 12:51:42 PM
I will repeat myself.... and add a more specific comment... you have a people problem not a technical problem, and Chuck, you are part of the problem.  Loose the attitude and work with the team that is trying to help you.  Church is a team sport but everyone is supposed to be on the same side not trying to beat down the rest of the team.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 17, 2014, 01:28:04 PM
I was recently the victim of a "witchhunt" at the church where I was music minister for 20 years. If they'd told me they wanted a younger face so as to relate to a younger audience, I could have accepted that, but the comments went along the lines that the Holy Spirit couldn't move unless the music was like they wanted it. Amazingly, of all the instances in the bible of the Holy Spirit moving, none of them had music involved. Nor PA systems. As you "hint", the church needs to get back to basics and stop trying to attract a crowd with a "show", all the while catering to prima donnas who put on the show.

Wow.  I'm surprised they were so blunt.  "We now bring you the 90 minute infomercial, in progress..."  Focus-group tested, mother-approved.

Now that there is a new music minister, I bet that church gets a new PA system, lights and video within the next 2 years.  I'll double down on that bet if the senior pastor has been there less than 5 years.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: David Parker on March 17, 2014, 04:14:29 PM
Wow.  I'm surprised they were so blunt.  "We now bring you the 90 minute infomercial, in progress..."  Focus-group tested, mother-approved.

Now that there is a new music minister, I bet that church gets a new PA system, lights and video within the next 2 years.  I'll double down on that bet if the senior pastor has been there less than 5 years.
No, the church is dying. I wasn't the problem. The pastor is the problem, but he wasn't going to remove himself. they would have everything you describe, but they can't afford it. Funny thing is, all the honest folks at the church say the new music minister isn't any different than I was. Of course, I'm not there any more. I could only stand so much fun.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Brad Weber on March 17, 2014, 04:35:04 PM
The problem I'm having, is I like a mic that is sensitive and will pick me up anywhere around the pulpit. I don't want to have to eat the mic or speak directly into it, most pulpits I speak at will pick me up without having to do that. I can turn up the mixer input gain and main output levels to get the pulpit mic the way I want it, but we then get tons of feedback, ringing and our musicians say "you're pegging out the equipment". They adjust it and I again have what I call a dead mic that I have to practically eat to get the response I want which makes it tough to read my notes and make eye contact with the congregation. And it's killing my voice having to practically yell to get it to pick me up and who wants to eat a mic for 30 minutes??? I know we can do better
 
The Church is small, just 65' x 43' with a 20' wood, steeple ceiling. Our unmanned mixer is a Eurodesk SX3242FX that was recently donated and we have 12 mic's hooked to it that don't have off switches (mostly in the choir stand). We also have a really good digital wireless mic, but again, no one really wants to use it because they turn the gain down so low I have to eat it to get it to respond the way I want. I can turn it up but the musicians again go into their frenzy...  Too add, they play so loud with all their electronic amplification that we have to tell them to turn it down several times during a service because we can't hear the choir or even me speaking at times.
 
So we have a Eurodesk SX3242FX with 4 speakers total, two large JBL's (I have no idea what the model numbers are because they're embedded up in the front wall) hooked to the mixer main outputs in the front of the sanctuary and two faithful BOSE 802E with active equalizer (I love those little dudes) in the rear facing toward me that are hooked like monitors coming out of AUX SND 1 & 2. The BOSE in the rear are powered by an old Peavey 2600 (stereo) but the two JBL's in the front are wired in parallel and powered by a Peavey 3000 mono amp. So we're really only using one main output from the mixer
Going back to this earlier post, some of your problems may be due to basic issues with your aujdio system and its operation.  For example, it seems that the musicians only monitoring is the same Bose speakers at the rear of the room that you use for your monitors.  It might help in several ways if the musicians had their own monitor mix(es) that could differ in content from what you want in your monitor mix.  There's no apparent reason for you to have a stereo monitor mix so maybe the second Aux send on the console could instead be used for an independent second monitor mix.
 
To adjust what you hear in your monitors you should be adjusting only the asssociated aux send level(s) on the related channels and should not be adjusting the input gains, the channel faders or the console master fader.   If the Auxes on your mixer are setup properly for monitors as pre-fade sends (the "PRE" button next to the aux send controls pushed in) then the channel and master faders shouldn't even affect the signals to the Bose speakers.  In fact the mixer master fader shouldn't affect the level of the Bose speakers no matter what, which makes me wonder if you are actually turning up the house system until you hear yourself from that.
 
When you say "...we can't hear the choir or even me speaking at times." are you referencing the congregation not being able to hear you or your not being able to hear yourself?  While it might be ideal for you to hear yourself clearly while the musicians play, that may not be practical without some changes to the monitors and/or your microphone, as discussed below.  On the other hand, if the stage levels are really too loud then controlling those may help in several ways.
 
 
 
In terms of avoiding feedback it's really pretty simple, once you've reached what the system can do then turning up your mic means turning down your monitor (or turning up your monitor means turning down your microphone).  Unless something changes that is the way it is and wanting it to be different won't change anything.  So how do you change it so that you can turn up both your microphone and monitor?  That's also pretty simple, you increase the level of your natural voice at your microphone and/or you reduce the level from the PA getting into the microphones.
 
You seem to have issues with talking loudly so the only practical option to make you louder at the microphone seems to be to move the microphone closer.  That might mean using a handheld microphone held close to your mouth or an earset/headset boom mic with the mic element close to your mouth.  What you may feel is "eating the mic" a technician may call increased Potential Acoustical Gain.
 
As far as keeping the PA sound out of the microphone, that is greatly complicated by your moving around and especially going out into the congregation while still wanting to hear yourself.  Probably the most effective option would be for you to use a wireless in-ear monitor, that way you could turn your monitor up with virtually no pickup of that sound by your microphone.  Do that and give the musicians their own monitor mix from monitors located much closer to them and things might be much better.
 
If that is not practical or acceptable then it seems to get much more challenging.  Common approaches such as moving the monitors closer to you so they can be run at a lower level, limiting the area covered by monitors and so on while potentially quite effective seem impractical if you want to be able to go virtually anywhere in the room and to hear yourself wherever you go.  Using a cardioid handheld microphone and staying aware of where the rear null is pointed could help but you seem to not want to have to focus on anything other than what you're saying, so having to think about how you hold and direct the microphone may make that a less than practical option.  It may be that all you can do without some changes in equipment or how you preach is to turn off or down any microphones not being used to keep them from contributing to the sound from the PA and monitors getting back into the system.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Ben Brunskill on March 17, 2014, 06:49:50 PM
Or we admit that the 10am GodShow is just that, a show for folks who share the same spiritual beliefs, and that the preachers, musicians and lay staff are cast members and we focus on delivering the show no matter how much humility or diva conduct comes with it.  But never forget that we're about as far from the sermon on the mount as we can be...

Or we can admit that church is mostly a big feel-good commercial to sell a particular brand or flavor of faith.

Once you reduce the service to fundamental *conduct* (not principles), you pretty much have one or the other, and some times you have both.

"We're show people, so let's put on a show!"  Shirley Temple.

This is getting way off topic, but I have to say this is a great post. I’ve been leaning towards this opinion for a while now. I’m not OK with the God-show anymore.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Chuck Survine on March 17, 2014, 10:08:33 PM
I would say the vast majority of pastors I encounter prefer *not* to hear themselves, actually. Our auditorium shape tends to reflect PA sound back onto the stage quite efficiently (I consider this a bug rather than a feature).

You saying they don't want to hear themselves but they can because of how the building is built. I think if you took it away they would say different. Maybe not all but certainly "some" in a dozen.

Then again I wonder if it has to do with the type of church. We have a loud church where the people talk back at the preacher.

During sound check, I always push the pastor's mic pretty hard to make sure I have plenty of gain available if needed...

Sounds like a good sound man to me...  That's all I would ask...

In this analogy, I would say the pastor is the chef, not the diner. Your preference of how you want to hear yourself should be secondary to getting good, intelligible sound out to the congregation so they can effortlessly hear your message.

Not if the PA is the food, then the preacher would be the consumer and not the chef. If you're referring to the message then yes the preacher would be the chef  but we're talking PA. And if you can't hear yourself, then my assumption is they can't hear me either. If anything, me hearing myself IS my assurance they're getting good sound which then allows me to to turn my focus on delivering a good message and not "what the heck is that sound man doing today" and "why does he keep turning the PA down when I get up to speak???  Is he trying to kill me?"
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Chuck Survine on March 17, 2014, 10:12:35 PM
Peter preached the first Christian sermon without a microphone and 3000 got saved in one day.

He must have had a good acoustics's man... The apostles also walked on most of their journeys, and you don't see that done much these days either.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Chuck Survine on March 17, 2014, 10:29:16 PM
exactly. Where is the servant mentality Jesus taught us? Sounds like a pride issue.

???   I would equate this more to the sound guy and not the preacher who just wants to be sure the message is being heard. As a servant, wouldn't the sound guy make the preacher as comfortable as possible while he uses your equipment? Isn't he there to serve the users of the equipment??? And wouldn't it be the sound man putting aside his pride to adjust the PA to the preachers liking, and not his own??? You don't have to take it person like we're saying you're a bad sound man, just that I can't hear the monitor???  Is it that insulting to hear someone ask for more volume???

I don't follow how being at your best for the Lord is pride but I guess you have some logic in that??? And letting the PA do the work so you can save your voice it's pride, it's the reason we invested in a good PA???
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Chuck Survine on March 17, 2014, 10:43:16 PM
Who is the chef and cook in your analogy?  Is your role serving or being served?

Since I am using the PA, I would not be the chef, I would be the consumer. So I am not serving, I am being served by the sound man.
 
I'm sure anyone running your system would be happy to try to fulfill your wishes but they probably have to balance your goals with the wishes of others and what physics allows.  You ask about others seeing your perspective, perhaps you also need to try to see theirs.
 
I believe that your problem is not that you can't achieve what you want but that you may not be able to achieve it in the way you apparently want.  If you used a wireless mic with a headset style microphone and the mic placed close to your mouth along with a wireless in-ear monitor then you could probably turn yourself way up in your monitor mix and not only not get feedback but also allow the level for the congregation be adjusted as best serves them without it affecting you (or you affecting them) so much.  But unless you are willing and able to employ such measures then physics may dictate what is possible.

so let's back up a bit, if I can turn it up and it works the way I like it then I know it's possible. Theoretically a bumble bee can't fly, but that never stopped one from trying...  So generally (I can't speak for every situation) it's not a question of what's possible or any of your physics or theory, it's a matter of the sound guy honoring an end users request to make an adjustment the sound buy may not prefer. It would be different if the sound guy honored the request and the system started to feedback or ringing so he turns it back down. When I've been in this situation, the sound guy won't even try...
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Ray Aberle on March 17, 2014, 11:09:31 PM
Since I am using the PA, I would not be the chef, I would be the consumer. So I am not serving, I am being served by the sound man.
 
so let's back up a bit, if I can turn it up and it works the way I like it then I know it's possible. Theoretically a bumble bee can't fly, but that never stopped one from trying...  So generally (I can't speak for every situation) it's not a question of what's possible or any of your physics or theory, it's a matter of the sound guy honoring an end users request to make an adjustment the sound buy may not prefer. It would be different if the sound guy honored the request and the system started to feedback or ringing so he turns it back down. When I've been in this situation, the sound guy won't even try...
Disclaimer: I'm not a regular church goer. I'm not even an irregular church goer.

I'm getting the vibe, Chuck, that you are looking at this as a "me versus them" thing. The sound guy isn't complying with your every request, so he must be "against you." The band doesn't want to do things your way, so they're also "against you." There's no "I" in "team," though. (Although as the t-shirt goes, there's a "u" in "suck." Haha.)

I think you should really sit down and discuss this whole situation with your sound tech and your band. Make sure they understand your concerns. Perhaps there's a solution that isn't apparent right now? Maybe they (the band or the tech) can make some good suggestions on how to improve the whole situation and make everyone happy while delivering the best quality product (the message!) to the consumers (your congregation). After all, isn't that the whole purpose of being there?!?

-Ray
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Ray Aberle on March 17, 2014, 11:14:26 PM
I get the gist, instead of throwing money at this, we need to find someone to run the mixer. I think that's good advice and I'll pray the Lord blesses us with one. Until then maybe I can get one of the musicians to go back and mute the unused mics.

Alternatively, you could ask the congregation for someone to volunteer to expand their service to the church by running the mixer for you? From my experience in the Boy Scouts, sometimes you just have to ask people to step up. They're just waiting to be invited!

-Ray
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Jeff Carter on March 17, 2014, 11:51:18 PM
You saying they don't want to hear themselves but they can because of how the building is built. I think if you took it away they would say different. Maybe not all but certainly "some" in a dozen.
It's true that not hearing your voice well in an overly "dead" room is not pleasant for a speaker--but most church auditoriums are lively enough to reflect some sound back to the stage rather than sucking it all up.

Quote
Then again I wonder if it has to do with the type of church. We have a loud church where the people talk back at the preacher.
If there's more going on acoustically in the background, then I suppose that could drown out your own voice to some extent, yes. But surely if they're responding, they hear you?

(My church is about the opposite of yours... our room is pretty "lively", the congregation not so much. ;D)

Quote
Not if the PA is the food, then the preacher would be the consumer and not the chef. If you're referring to the message then yes the preacher would be the chef  but we're talking PA. And if you can't hear yourself, then my assumption is they can't hear me either. If anything, me hearing myself IS my assurance they're getting good sound which then allows me to to turn my focus on delivering a good message and not "what the heck is that sound man doing today" and "why does he keep turning the PA down when I get up to speak???  Is he trying to kill me?"

That's not really a great assumption, though, is it? For example, you've already listed one case (the ear-bud story) where your monitor was in fact not representative of what was going on for the audience.

If the monitor feed is all about verifying that you're actually in the PA, then there are some "people" issues--either lack of training on the sound tech's part, or lack of trust on yours--that are the root of your problems. All too often in the church we try to solve people problems with gear.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Jeff Foster on March 18, 2014, 10:50:33 AM
Since I am using the PA, I would not be the chef, I would be the consumer. So I am not serving, I am being served by the sound man.


Pastor Chuck,

Respectfully, I'm going to have to agree with most of the responders here and call you out on this.  I believe you have the wrong idea for what needs to happen.  I get that you want to hear yourself so that you don't feel that you need to yell, but you have been told repeatedly that is a bad idea.  Putting any monitors in the direction of a spoken word vocal mic is a bad idea.  Period.  I've been a sound man at my church for 23 years.  I have a lot of experience with guest speakers and tons of experience working with my pastor.  Your situation is screaming of trust issues with the sound personnel (if any).  You need to get your trust issues resolved before we ever start talking technical solutions.

As for the monitors, they are a bad idea.  You don't need to hear a loud PA sound to know that you are talking.  Get a headset mic, and let the sound person make it sound the best it possibly can in the house system.  Get over your hang up on having monitors.  My pastor has learned to pick up on other audible cues to know if the sound system is working, like hearing the echo from the walls in the room.  It sounds very different when the system is on as opposed to when it is off.  If you are used to a loud monitor, then it will take a while to adjust yourself to that, but it will be far better for the congregation in the long run.  Eventually, you will forget about the sound issues and proceed to just preach.  The audience would have much better sound and everything would just flow better.  However, until you give up the need for your own selfish control, you're never going to be free to preach the Word with grace and clarity.

To be very blunt, the problem is not the sound system, it is you.  Many suggestions have been made by many people here that most certainly know what they are doing, but yet you continue to resist their good advice and reject anything that isn't what you want to hear.  You need to ask yourself, are you preaching for your benefit, or that of your congregants?  Get over yourself, adjust your attitude, and put some faith in your sound personnel.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on March 18, 2014, 10:51:06 AM
so let's back up a bit, if I can turn it up and it works the way I like it then I know it's possible. Theoretically a bumble bee can't fly, but that never stopped one from trying...  So generally (I can't speak for every situation) it's not a question of what's possible or any of your physics or theory, it's a matter of the sound guy honoring an end users request to make an adjustment the sound buy may not prefer. It would be different if the sound guy honored the request and the system started to feedback or ringing so he turns it back down. When I've been in this situation, the sound guy won't even try...

Chuck,

I've been there-knowing (and if you work a system you can sense it, too) a system was on the verge of feedback and being publicly asked (ok sometimes demanded) for more monitor.  I have done both-not turned it up,and turned it up and let it squeal.  From my seat here's the issue.  Do nothing-you are wrong.  Turn it up and it squeals and you are wrong-you just disrupted the service AND who knows if you didn't just "crank" it to "prove" a point.  Either way it takes a team effort.  To use another analogy-a quarterback can't complete passes without a good receiver and a receiver can't receive passes without a good quarterback.  If they don't get along and work together AND trust each other to do their best they might as well stay home.
My pastor got to the point where if I set a system offsite he trusted me to have it set and he didn't feel the need to check it before a service-he knew that I knew what he wanted and would do all I could to get it as close to that as I could with the equipment I had.  Probably take a few years to get there-but I assume you are in for the long haul.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Ray Aberle on March 18, 2014, 11:01:35 AM
... and let the sound person make it sound the best it possibly can in the house system. 

*snip*
...and put some faith in your sound personnel.

I think the one thing we've forgotten is that, as of Chuck's post of March 13th, he doesn't have a sound tech to run the mixer during the service. This is a case of Chuck fighting the band as to how to best set up the system, in a manner that they can just 'leave it' for the duration of the service.

I mentioned this last night, and will do so again- I think that has to be your first priority-- finding someone within your congregation that has either the talent or the desire to learn about this industry, and give them the responsibility of making you sound good. Then...

- Sit down with him/her, as well as the band, and make group decisions based on everyone's input.
- Take a night and play with the system, so the new tech can get a feel for the service sound needs (their experience behind the board is going to be waaaaay different then when sitting in a pew!).
- Understand that the first couple of services might be a challenge. They may miss a cue, not un-mute a mic in time, or otherwise make a booboo.
- Let the congregation know! "Let's welcome Timothy, who is joining our worship team as our new sound technician. He's on a steep learning curve, so let's be kind to him, but I want to publicly thank him for hearing the call to God to serve Him in this manner!" If the congregation knows that Timothy (or whoever) is learning as he goes, they're going to be very supportive of him. (I would hope...)

Let us know how it goes!

-Ray
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Brad Weber on March 18, 2014, 11:18:49 AM
Since I am using the PA, I would not be the chef, I would be the consumer. So I am not serving, I am being served by the sound man.
It's my experience that the best results are obtained when worship leaders view their role to be serving the church membership and they work together with others such as the sound tech in that effort, so your response may hint at at least part of the problem.
 
You initially commented that the mixer was unmanned and you hoped to be blessed with someone to run the system.  Quite frankly, I am not clear on what 'sound man' you are referencing or who it is that is supposedly turning down the system, not doing what you ask, etc.

so let's back up a bit, if I can turn it up and it works the way I like it then I know it's possible. Theoretically a bumble bee can't fly, but that never stopped one from trying...  So generally (I can't speak for every situation) it's not a question of what's possible or any of your physics or theory, it's a matter of the sound guy honoring an end users request to make an adjustment the sound buy may not prefer. It would be different if the sound guy honored the request and the system started to feedback or ringing so he turns it back down. When I've been in this situation, the sound guy won't even try...
It is common for a sound tech to have to work with multiple parties (church leadership, worship leaders, musicians, church members, etc.) who often have differing or even conflicting goals.  The sound often tech has to balance all of those goals and try to keep everyone happy, an effort which can be the most difficult part of the role.  If one were to focus on just themselves and not consider how others may be affected then they might interpret the sound tech's not responding to their requests/demands as desired as being adversarial when it may actually just be the sound tech's trying to respond to their request within a 'bigger picture' perspective.
 
Unless it's a result of a relationship that you have had a part in creating then I doubt that your 'sound man' is intentionally not doing what you ask/demand just to spite you.  I believe that you are so focused on getting what you want that you may not be considering how that may affect others, however your 'sound man' may not be able to so easily overlook how the musicians and congregation are affected.  As others have suggested, a good, open discussion with your 'sound man', musicians and any others involved may help clarify the situation and perhaps lead to a more cooperative relationship based on some established common goals.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Jay Barracato on March 18, 2014, 11:23:52 AM
A repeated theme in this whole series of posts is a misunderstanding of the role of FOH and monitors.

The OP has repeated said that he wants to be sure his message is heard in the audience based on what he hears in the monitors.

Until the OP understands that those are separate systems, fulfilling separate roles, and what the performer needs to hear in the monitors is only loosely related to the mix for the audience, yet when poorly set up can greatly negatively affect the audience mix, all this discussion is not going far.

A good monitor system should allow the performer to adjust their dynamics as they like. The misapplication is not realizing that when you get louder in the monitors, you also get louder in the house. Instead, I see a substitution of when I want to get loud in the house I have to get equally as loud in the monitors. Not true. They are separate systems.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 18, 2014, 11:26:23 AM
A repeated theme in this whole series of posts is a misunderstanding of the role of FOH and monitors.

The OP has repeated said that he wants to be sure his message is heard in the audience based on what he hears in the monitors.

Until the OP understands that those are separate systems, fulfilling separate roles, and what the performer needs to hear in the monitors is only loosely related to the mix for the audience, yet when poorly set up can greatly negatively affect the audience mix, all this discussion is not going far.

A good monitor system should allow the performer to adjust their dynamics as they like. The misapplication is not realizing that when you get louder in the monitors, you also get louder in the house. Instead, I see a substitution of when I want to get loud in the house I have to get equally as loud in the monitors. Not true. They are separate systems.

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Throw in "I'm the customer, and the customer is always right" attitude and you've nailed this one, Jay.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Scott Olewiler on March 18, 2014, 11:44:17 AM
it works the way I like it

"it works the way I like" does not equal "it works the way that sounds the best to the congregation"

You need someone who is impartial to make that call.

I have worked repeatedly with performers who go out into the audience with a wireless mic and then suddenly start shouting into the mic because they perceive they can't hear themselves, when it fact everyone else can hear them fine. The more clear the system is the worse they are.

 And I am not siding with the band. If you can have what you want and it still sounds good to the congregation you should have it. Why doesn't someone from the band go out and run the board (including muting all the mics that are not being used) while you're preaching? I'm troubled by the fact they are not volunteering to  do that. It does not take skilled engineer to mute the other mics and turn the monitor up if that works. But having Bose speakers on the back wall pointing towards the stage is an absolute no-no IMHO. 

Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: David Parker on March 18, 2014, 12:02:18 PM
And if you can't hear yourself, then my assumption is they can't hear me either. If anything, me hearing myself IS my assurance they're getting good sound which then allows me to to turn my focus on delivering a good message and not "what the heck is that sound man doing today" and "why does he keep turning the PA down when I get up to speak???  Is he trying to kill me?"

give responsibility and authority to someone to make sure everyone can hear. Then focus on the message. If you must, ask people if they are having problems hearing after the service, then present any negative findings to the person you have the sound job to. I Corinthians 12 covers spiritual gifts, but the concept applies. Nobody can do everything, and if all work together, the job gets done. And get either a lapel mic or a headset mic, something that stays with you. I listened to a preacher years ago that refused to use a lapel mic, he had to have a hand held wireless mic. He would forget to hold the mic close (4000 seat church) and nobody could hear. Then he'd hold the mic close and scream into it, hurting everyone's ears. He was serving himself, at the expense of the audience. Had I been in charge, I would have told him to wear the lapel or leave.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Josh Millward on March 18, 2014, 12:41:55 PM
There's no "I" in "team," though.

There is an "I" in TEAM... It is hidden in the "A" hole.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on March 18, 2014, 12:49:22 PM
A repeated theme in this whole series of posts is a misunderstanding of the role of FOH and monitors.

The OP has repeated said that he wants to be sure his message is heard in the audience based on what he hears in the monitors.

Until the OP understands that those are separate systems, fulfilling separate roles, and what the performer needs to hear in the monitors is only loosely related to the mix for the audience, yet when poorly set up can greatly negatively affect the audience mix, all this discussion is not going far.

A good monitor system should allow the performer to adjust their dynamics as they like. The misapplication is not realizing that when you get louder in the monitors, you also get louder in the house. Instead, I see a substitution of when I want to get loud in the house I have to get equally as loud in the monitors. Not true. They are separate systems.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

I suggested this before:

http://www.fullcompass.com/product/464877.html

Chuck...

Get yourself one of these with a nice set of ear buds, take personal responsibility for what you want/need and get off everyone's case.  Plug your mic into this, then send the split signal to the "PA".  It will work for you wherever you go.  Done and done.


You just have to decide which you'd rather do:

1.  Solve your problem  or

2.  Keep bitching.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Ray Aberle on March 18, 2014, 01:39:30 PM
Lots of posts, all pretty much saying the same thing...

Let's wait for Chuck to respond, to get some more information from him as to how he wants to proceed, before piling on more. :)

-Ray
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: lindsay Dean on March 18, 2014, 02:10:10 PM
Hello,

I am the new pastor at a baptist Church and really need advice for economically improving our sound performance. I'm not trying to make this a professional studio, but I believe there are one or two good, economical investments we can make that will produce okay results we can live with.

The problem I'm having, is I like a mic that is sensitive and will pick me up anywhere around the pulpit. I don't want to have to eat the mic or speak directly into it, most pulpits I speak at will pick me up without having to do that. I can turn up the mixer input gain and main output levels to get the pulpit mic the way I want it, but we then get tons of feedback, ringing and our musicians say "you're pegging out the equipment". They adjust it and I again have what I call a dead mic that I have to practically eat to get the response I want which makes it tough to read my notes and make eye contact with the congregation. And it's killing my voice having to practically yell to get it to pick me up and who wants to eat a mic for 30 minutes??? I know we can do better...

The Church is small, just 65' x 43' with a 20' wood, steeple ceiling. Our unmanned mixer is a Eurodesk SX3242FX that was recently donated and we have 12 mic's hooked to it that don't have off switches (mostly in the choir stand). We also have a really good digital wireless mic, but again, no one really wants to use it because they turn the gain down so low I have to eat it to get it to respond the way I want. I can turn it up but the musicians again go into their frenzy...  Too add, they play so loud with all their electronic amplification that we have to tell them to turn it down several times during a service because we can't hear the choir or even me speaking at times.

So we have a Eurodesk SX3242FX with 4 speakers total, two large JBL's (I have no idea what the model numbers are because they're embedded up in the front wall) hooked to the mixer main outputs in the front of the sanctuary and two faithful BOSE 802E with active equalizer (I love those little dudes) in the rear facing toward me that are hooked like monitors coming out of AUX SND 1 & 2. The BOSE in the rear are powered by an old Peavey 2600 (stereo) but the two JBL's in the front are wired in parallel and powered by a Peavey 3000 mono amp. So we're really only using one main output from the mixer.

I currently overruled the musicians and have the mixer cranked up because I am getting nodules on my vocal chords (to keep from yelling for 3 services each Sunday), I am getting the mic sensitivity I enjoy and I can speak softly and the mic pic's me up but I had to adjust the 9 band equalizer to combat the feedback which really degraded the tone. Kind of sounds like a booming funnel lol...

I read where a 31 band equalizer would best eliminate the feedback without degrading the tone quality as much but these feedback destroyers look like a good investment also. One of the musicians recommended a compressor to raise my soft speaking and reduce the volume when I'm closing since I generally get pretty worked up by the closing of my sermon.

I also don't understand having to buy to of whatever solution we come up with so there is one for the mains and one for the speakers hooked to the AUX. It really seems there should be a place somewhere in the mixer where we can treat the signal before it branches out into the 4 channels. But the musician that donated the mixer explained about the buses and says it can't be done.

I went to a local store and the guy recommended something like this Driverack PA+ http://www.ebay.com/itm/DBX-DriveRack-PA-Plus-Drive-Rack-pa-Loudspeaker-Management-System-/291099381282?pt=US_Signal_Processors_Rack_Effects&hash=item43c6e00e22 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/DBX-DriveRack-PA-Plus-Drive-Rack-pa-Loudspeaker-Management-System-/291099381282?pt=US_Signal_Processors_Rack_Effects&hash=item43c6e00e22) which would do all the above (EQ, feedback destroyer and compressor). I'm skeptical and can't afford to throw good money after bad since this is other peoples money I'm spending, so I was wondering if someone can provide more food for thought or perhaps suggest a way to work with what we have.

What I like about the Driverack PA+ is that it takes two input signals and outputs six channels so I can hook this to the mains of the mixer and still run all four speakers. What I can't figure out is this crossover business since I would want full sound on each channel.

What say you???

You need to find a qualified person reccomended by other churches to evaluate, and tune the system you already have.
Sound systems are what they are by equipment chioces, placement of each loudspeaker,mic eq setting and processing. Its not a point and shoot technology
 The most important thing is as a whole getting Gods word and music out as clearly, and trouble free as possible.
     In the church p.a world the devil IS in the details
and he will use any means possible to disrupt the service.
   Pay the money have it evaluated, tuned get someone or 2 to be trained and run the system and, move on with Gods work.
     I have helped many churches that have waited too long, hurt too many feelings, and frustrated themselves.
I promise you it will be worth the money spent.
             

Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on March 18, 2014, 04:33:06 PM
As for hearing myself, I forgot to mention I do most of my preaching pacing the isle of the sanctuary. I'm a pacer that rarely stands in the pulpit when preaching but I do use the pulpit mic for pastoral emphasis which is when I would prefer to speak softly. I also dart back up to the pulpit periodically to check my notes. Perhaps with a lapel mic I can put my notes in my bible and take them with me on my pace since I would have both hands free to work them.

I think one of the problems you may have is that you may not be using proper microphone technique. As I haven't seen any videos of you preaching, I can only guess, so please don't take offense at any invalid assumptions I might make.

It sounds like you are a very dynamic speaker, and you like to use your voice to create emphasis: sometimes you go soft to draw the audience in, then other times you like to drive home a point with loud emphasis. (That's a good thing! A monotone preacher puts people to sleep.)

An interesting thing about human perception is that tone carries more meaning than loudness. With the human voice, however, varying the loudness is what changes the tone.

Remember that a microphone reproduces all energy it receives, wanted and unwanted, and that the inverse square law*1 applies. That means that the further away you are from the microphone, the less energy it's going to receive. For the same vocal volume, doubling the distance will result in a 6 dB loss of energy at the microphone. If you don't vary the distance, but you vary the volume of your voice, this variation will be reflected in the sound system. If you speak loudly and are a foot away from the microphone, things might sound great. But if you stay in the same spot and speak softly, the microphone still picks that up, but the energy is so low it registers below the noise floor of the room and neither the congregation nor you hears it. When you ask the board operator (if you have one) to "turn it up" during those quiet spots, it may not be possible if the system is already on the verge of feedback. No amount of equipment changes will overcome this physics problem.

Now let's go back to perception. Since tone has more to do with meaning than loudness, we can exploit this by using dynamic microphone technique. It's fairly simple -- as you speak softly, move closer to the microphone to increase the relative energy reaching the mic. As you speak more loudly, move away. With this technique -- often called 'working the mic' -- you can, in effect, be your own compressor. The result is that the actual loudness in the room -- and in the monitor -- changes very little, but since we perceive meaning based on tone rather than loudness, the effect on the congregation is unchanged. In fact, because the loudness isn't changing, the effect is better because the minds of the congregation aren't constantly working to compensate for changes in volume. (Listening to something with constantly changing volume can be very fatiguing.)

When you turn your head side to side, the mic must follow you and you must always speak into it. When you're at the pulpit, this means you must move your body so you're always facing the mic. Try as you might, microphones won't do a good job of picking up your voice if they are aimed at your forehead, your ear, or your tie tack. And please, for the love our ears, NEVER point a microphone at a loudspeaker or monitor being fed that mic's signal.

It's always helpful to have an FOH board operator. Proper mic technique makes that person's job much easier. If for some reason you cannot have an FOH operator, proper mic technique is absolutely essential.

Based on your style of speaking, I don't think a lapel or headworn mic will work well for you. Since those styles of microphones are in a fixed location relative to your mouth, you cannot "work" them as you change the loudness and tone of your voice for emphasis. I'd recommend sticking with what it appears you may already have: a handheld wireless for roaming about, then set it down when you're at the pulpit and want to used the fixed mic*2. But always, always, always remember proper mic technique.

(There may be some other equipment changes needed if there are speakers that aren't optimally placed, but that's another discussion.)

*1 -- The inverse square law states that as the distance from a source increases, the intensity of energy measured from that source decreases by the inverse of the square of the difference ratio of the distance. Or, to put it in mathematical terms: i2=i1/(d2/d1)2 where d1 is the initial distance, d2 is the new distance, i1 is the initial intensity, and i2 is the new intensity.

*2 -- When you set down the handheld mic, the microphone capsule should be more than 3x the distance away from your mouth as the pulpit mic. When you pick up the handheld mic, the pulpit mic should be more than 3x the distance from your mouth as the handheld. By observing this 3:1 rule, you help ensure that the signal in the microphones is at least 10dB different. Less than that and you can have comb filtering effects that distort the sound. The alternative is to mute the unused mic.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Chris Penny on March 18, 2014, 07:12:01 PM
What an interesting thread.  All sorts of fun things happening here.

I agree with many here that this isn't just a technical issue, and that you have both expectation and interpersonal issues to resolve here.

My two big suggestions are 1) get a sound operator and 2) get a headset mic.   

Where are you located Chuck? Maybe someone here may be able to visit and get a better idea of at least the technical issues involved, if not maybe the non-technical.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Stefan Maerz on March 18, 2014, 10:49:36 PM
The pastors I have worked with project so well that I typically get comb filtering when I set their mics to a comfortable level. I'm almost undoubtedly the only person in the room who notices, so I never bother to turn it up.

I guess I've been lucky with pastors.

Guest speakers, announcement people, musicians?...not so much.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 19, 2014, 07:53:05 AM
The pastors I have worked with project so well that I typically get comb filtering when I set their mics to a comfortable level. I'm almost undoubtedly the only person in the room who notices, so I never bother to turn it up.


Maybe I am missing what is being said here.

What "level" are you setting to get combfiltering?
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Stefan Maerz on March 19, 2014, 08:37:20 AM
Maybe I am missing what is being said here.

What "level" are you setting to get combfiltering?
Arrival times. I hear the pastor slightly before the speaker.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on March 19, 2014, 08:46:58 AM
Arrival times. I hear the pastor slightly before the speaker.
That's not comb-filtering.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Brad Weber on March 19, 2014, 09:10:04 AM
A repeated theme in this whole series of posts is a misunderstanding of the role of FOH and monitors.

The OP has repeated said that he wants to be sure his message is heard in the audience based on what he hears in the monitors.

Until the OP understands that those are separate systems, fulfilling separate roles, and what the performer needs to hear in the monitors is only loosely related to the mix for the audience, yet when poorly set up can greatly negatively affect the audience mix, all this discussion is not going far.

A good monitor system should allow the performer to adjust their dynamics as they like. The misapplication is not realizing that when you get louder in the monitors, you also get louder in the house. Instead, I see a substitution of when I want to get loud in the house I have to get equally as loud in the monitors. Not true. They are separate systems.
The same issue seems to be reflected in some of the related mixer setup and operation as they apparently are using post-fade aux sends for the monitors and then adjusting the channel trim and fader in order to adjust the level of their mic in their monitor mix.  The channel trims should be set to provide good gain structure and left alone while the monitor mix should be independent of the house mix with the channel faders are used to create the house mix and the related pre-fade aux send levels used to create the monitor mix.
 
I also think that having just one monitor mix apparently determined by one person may be part of the problem, especially with it being reproduced by a 'stereo' monitor system using two Bose speakers at the rear of the room.  And I wonder if the those 'monitor' speakers are a sufficient distance away from the stage such that sound from them may be perceived as an echo by some on stage.
 
Perhaps if the intent of a monitor system was better understood and what they have revised to better support that then things might be much better for all involved.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: David Parker on March 19, 2014, 09:49:32 AM
Arrival times. I hear the pastor slightly before the speaker.
one of my former churches was a concrete dome, 208' in diameter. In certain places you could hear the bounce of the pastor's voice (his actual voice, not the PA) off the dome as loud as his voice in the PA and certainly not at the same time. The original location of the mixer was in a balcony room at the back. You couldn't mix at all from there because you could hear the band coming off the stage up there louder than the PA. The sound guy had no idea what the PA was doing in the seating area.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Stefan Maerz on March 19, 2014, 11:38:34 PM
That's not comb-filtering.
Care to enlighten me?
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 20, 2014, 07:21:18 AM
Care to enlighten me?
Combfiltering is when 2 identical signals arrive at a location slightly out of time.

It causes notches in the response.

The freq of the first notch is 1/2 of the time difference in arrival and the freq spacing of the notches is equal to the time arrival difference

Here is a link to a paper I wrote a number of years ago.  The combfilter part is a little later on in the paper.

http://www.dbaudioandvideo.com/files/resource/loudspeaker_placement_rev041021.pdf
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on March 20, 2014, 07:26:03 AM
Care to enlighten me?
Comb filtering is when two sources are very close in arrival time, tonality, and level; the result usually being a hollow sound, or interference at higher frequencies. This can sometimes be heard as a swishing sound if you walk around during playback.

What you are talking about is one or more of several things - a large difference in delay caused by speakers relatively far away compared to the presenter, echoes and/or reverb, or localization confusion due to the sound being perceived as coming from different different sources.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Stefan Maerz on March 20, 2014, 10:30:27 AM
Good to know. I was under the impression that a combfilter did not have to be close to being in time...But your explanation makes sense because long delay times don't result in that "Tin can" or "Hollow" sound -- a distinction makes sense.

I will read that paper when I get a little bit of time. Today is going to be a >=16 hour day, and I probably shouldn't even be reading this post right now. lol
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: David Parker on March 20, 2014, 11:07:10 AM
Combfiltering is when 2 identical signals arrive at a location slightly out of time.

It causes notches in the response.

The freq of the first notch is 1/2 of the time difference in arrival and the freq spacing of the notches is equal to the time arrival difference

Here is a link to a paper I wrote a number of years ago.  The combfilter part is a little later on in the paper.

http://www.dbaudioandvideo.com/files/resource/loudspeaker_placement_rev041021.pdf
seems I heard that comb filtering was used to create chorus effect, or was it flanging
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on March 20, 2014, 11:21:48 AM
seems I heard that comb filtering was used to create chorus effect, or was it flanging
Both of these are delay related; the difference is in the amount.

The closer in time the two signals are, the higher the frequency(s) of destructive interaction.  A flange effect is definitely comb-filtering.  A delay of a couple milliseconds is used - often a variable delay - and the resulting sound is the changing nature of the comb-filtering interaction.

Chorus effects can be more complicated, using combinations of delay (usually longer than flange delay), detuning, and other tricks.
Title: Re: Church Sound System
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 20, 2014, 12:56:30 PM
seems I heard that comb filtering was used to create chorus effect, or was it flanging
If you change the time of one of the arrivals it is a nice chorus effect.

Flanging is basically more than 2 arrivals at different times.

The different arrivals cause peaks and dips in the response