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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Cal Stone on July 02, 2014, 01:28:55 PM

Title: I need a PA system
Post by: Cal Stone on July 02, 2014, 01:28:55 PM
This is my first post, so I'll ask all of you now to forgive my ignorance about live sound.

I have been a semi-pro bassist in blues bands for the past 18 years. My wife and I also own a company that for the past seven years books musicians for festivals and a club or two. We always use a really fine local sound company, Joe Heslip Audio, to handle all these events. Great guys with excellent gear and great ears -- and musicians love them.

I also play in one band that uses a Bose L1 II system. We use it for three vocals and once in a while, depending on the room size, I'll run the line out from my Ampeg B100R bass amp into the Bose. Ninety-five percent of the time, the Bose is fine for our gigs. The other five percent, we wish we had a little more juice.

For my second band, the drummer (same as first band) bought a JBL EON 210P. Cool concept but it doesn't have any balls.

I would like to get a system to use -- definitely for the second band, once in a while for the first band, and also possibly for small events that don't require our sound company.

I have been looking at powered speakers, but so far I've only listened to the EV ZLX series at Guitar Center. Since then, I've just been researching online and trying to figure out what would best fit my needs. That's when I stumbled upon this site.

Some other speakers that seem to fit the bill for me are the Yamaha DXR10 and the RCF 310. Would you recommend a sub with either of these? If so, is it best to stick with the same brand, like the Yamaha DXS15?

Also, would just one sub be adequate and then mount the tops on stands? Or is it better to get two subs and mount the tops on poles above them? Might be overkill for my needs though.

This system would be mainly for clubs and once in a while a small outdoor event under a tent.

As for mixers, I've been looking at the Allen & Heath ZED60-14FX and the Yamaha MG16XU. Compared to the Bose and the EON, these may seem like more channels than I need, but I don't want to run into a situation with a band or an event that requires more than I've got.

Budget-wise, I just opened a $2,500 line of credit with Sweetwater. A pair of DXR10s, one DXS15 sub and the Yamaha mixer would max those funds out. I definitely don't want to spend more than that, and I'm open to your thoughts on other gear that may be more suitable to my needs.

I know I haven't given a ton of info here, but hopefully you will ask for specifics that will help determine the system to purchase.

Thanks!

Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on July 02, 2014, 02:12:39 PM
Don't even think about buying new gear with a budget.  With the advent of new speakers and digital doodads, used systems are easier to come by and will be better, more capable gear for your stated use. 

Why buy new, MI level gear when you can get good used pro gear for the money?  And very likely an entire system with well-matched components...

PS...

Your line of credit needs to be larger by a factor of 5-10x depending
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Jerome Casinger on July 02, 2014, 02:33:17 PM
What Dick said....there is tons of used stuff that will get you way more rig for the gig for your buck.  Especially with the transferable warrantees some of these companys are offering you really shouldnt buy new in your case.
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Tim McCulloch on July 02, 2014, 02:57:03 PM
Did you talk to Heslip about putting something together for you?  You never know what might be lurking in the back of the shop...
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Russ Davis on July 02, 2014, 03:02:05 PM
Quote from: Jerome Casinger
...there is tons of used stuff that will get you way more rig for the gig for your buck.

Depending on your proximity to Lansing or Detroit Craigslist can be your best friend, especially for items you don't want to buy through, say, eBay because they're too big to ship or you want hands-on testing.  If you see something tempting but want some LAB opinions, you can float the deal by here and we can advise (or mock) as appropriate.
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: sbjacob on July 02, 2014, 03:22:04 PM
This is my first post, so I'll ask all of you now to forgive my ignorance about live sound.

I have been a semi-pro bassist in blues bands for the past 18 years. My wife and I also own a company that for the past seven years books musicians for festivals and a club or two. We always use a really fine local sound company, Joe Heslip Audio, to handle all these events. Great guys with excellent gear and great ears -- and musicians love them.

I also play in one band that uses a Bose L1 II system. We use it for three vocals and once in a while, depending on the room size, I'll run the line out from my Ampeg B100R bass amp into the Bose. Ninety-five percent of the time, the Bose is fine for our gigs. The other five percent, we wish we had a little more juice.

For my second band, the drummer (same as first band) bought a JBL EON 210P. Cool concept but it doesn't have any balls.

I would like to get a system to use -- definitely for the second band, once in a while for the first band, and also possibly for small events that don't require our sound company.

I have been looking at powered speakers, but so far I've only listened to the EV ZLX series at Guitar Center. Since then, I've just been researching online and trying to figure out what would best fit my needs. That's when I stumbled upon this site.

Some other speakers that seem to fit the bill for me are the Yamaha DXR10 and the RCF 310. Would you recommend a sub with either of these? If so, is it best to stick with the same brand, like the Yamaha DXS15?

Also, would just one sub be adequate and then mount the tops on stands? Or is it better to get two subs and mount the tops on poles above them? Might be overkill for my needs though.

This system would be mainly for clubs and once in a while a small outdoor event under a tent.

As for mixers, I've been looking at the Allen & Heath ZED60-14FX and the Yamaha MG16XU. Compared to the Bose and the EON, these may seem like more channels than I need, but I don't want to run into a situation with a band or an event that requires more than I've got.

Budget-wise, I just opened a $2,500 line of credit with Sweetwater. A pair of DXR10s, one DXS15 sub and the Yamaha mixer would max those funds out. I definitely don't want to spend more than that, and I'm open to your thoughts on other gear that may be more suitable to my needs.

I know I haven't given a ton of info here, but hopefully you will ask for specifics that will help determine the system to purchase.

Thanks!
If size isn't a issue the old Peavey FH-1 , MB-2 MF-1 system is still a very good system for live sound you would need amps and a processor . I had one of these systems and was very pleased with it.
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Brian Jojade on July 02, 2014, 03:23:09 PM
Why don't you just take the money you would be spending on gear and use the sound company that you already have a relationship with?  Quite honestly, $2500 won't go very far with new gear.  Also factor in cases, cables, transportation, storage, etc., and you're not gaining anything by buying it on your own.

Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Rob Spence on July 02, 2014, 03:29:16 PM
One thing you did not address is what you want the PA to do?

Things like, what inputs do you expect to put in it?
What size places will you use it?
What style of music?
How loud?
What do you haul it with?

Also, you need to budget for all the accessories. Things like cables, cases, covers etc. otherwise your gear gets pretty beat up pretty quickly.  Heck, I have hundreds just in adapters.

I agree with getting better quality used gear. What gear depends a lot on the answers to above.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 02, 2014, 05:18:56 PM
Alright, I'll be the devils advocate.

Being that the OP has $2500 available for his use the worst thing in the world won't be spending it a Sweetwater. If that's all the OP has available right now, if there's no ready cash but he can afford a payment, then Sweetwater it is.

The ZED60 is an entry level 12 channel mixer with effects. I've never used one or heard one so you'll need to depend on the A&H rep, but at this level just about any reputable name mixer will give you good entry level sound.

However, being that most mixers in this dollar level are pretty much the same, with one exception, then you might try to save some nickels.


MIXER

Alternatives;

Soundcraft EPM12
Yamaha MW12CX

I'm going to recommend passive speakers because passive speakers can always be used for other duties with other amplifiers and in the end will generally cost less on a per speaker basis;

You have $2000 left to play with.

2ea. JBL PRX415M - $550ea.

You have $900 left to play with.

QSC GX7 amplifier, 725 watts per channel at 8ohms, $600

You have $300 left to play with.

At the very least you need 2ea. #12 50 foot speaker cables, 2ea. speaker tripod stands, a rack, and whatever mics and cables you can find cheap.

This would be my entry level PA. Great for vocals, the components will work together nicely, and all new. It's a start, and probably a better start than most IMO.


You can purchase subs in the future, upgrade any of the other components and still retain your original investment.

Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Steve M Smith on July 02, 2014, 05:28:12 PM
The ZED60 is an entry level 12 channel mixer with effects. I've never used one or heard one so you'll need to depend on the A&H rep...............


MIXER

Alternatives;

Soundcraft EPM12
Yamaha MW12CX

The A & H ZED series are good.  One sound company here uses the larger ZED428 and it seems to be o.k.

The Soundcraft EPM12 is also a nice, compact mixer (I bought one this week for just £80 from a work colleague) however, it doesn't have built in effects like the A & H and Yamaha you suggested.

Soundcraft make a model MPMi12 which is similar but has Lexicon effects:

http://www.soundsliveshop.com/p/Soundcraft_MPMi12_Live_PA_Mixer/SCRAFT-MPMi12?CAWELAID=1830891890&CAGPSPN=pla&catargetid=1831862285&cadevice=c&gclid=CMLl_vPIp78CFYTLtAodlzEAkg

Also, make sure you have enough inputs.  Sometimes a mixer claiming to be 12 input has 8 mono channels with balanced mic inputs and makes up the other 4 with a couple of stereo channels - The A & H does that whereas the 12 channel Soundcrafts have twelve mono inputs plus a couple of stereo channels.


Steve.
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: jasonfinnigan on July 02, 2014, 05:55:10 PM
However, being that most mixers in this dollar level are pretty much the same, with one exception, then you might try to save some nickels.
hahaha. Did I just detect the B word? I'd stay away from peavey, crate and Phonic and Nady for mixers as well (and most other gear the make, too. Though I want really bash Peavey much they really aren't a bad brand for the most part, just not that great either.)
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on July 02, 2014, 05:59:26 PM
Alright, I'll be the devils advocate.

Being that the OP has $2500 available for his use the worst thing in the world won't be spending it a Sweetwater. If that's all the OP has available right now, if there's no ready cash but he can afford a payment, then Sweetwater it is.

The ZED60 is an entry level 12 channel mixer with effects. I've never used one or heard one so you'll need to depend on the A&H rep, but at this level just about any reputable name mixer will give you good entry level sound.

However, being that most mixers in this dollar level are pretty much the same, with one exception, then you might try to save some nickels.


MIXER

Alternatives;

Soundcraft EPM12
Yamaha MW12CX

I'm going to recommend passive speakers because passive speakers can always be used for other duties with other amplifiers and in the end will generally cost less on a per speaker basis;

You have $2000 left to play with.

2ea. JBL PRX415M - $550ea.

You have $900 left to play with.

QSC GX7 amplifier, 725 watts per channel at 8ohms, $600

You have $300 left to play with.

At the very least you need 2ea. #12 50 foot speaker cables, 2ea. speaker tripod stands, a rack, and whatever mics and cables you can find cheap.

This would be my entry level PA. Great for vocals, the components will work together nicely, and all new. It's a start, and probably a better start than most IMO.


You can purchase subs in the future, upgrade any of the other components and still retain your original investment.

Bob,

A nice,well thought out reply.  I would just add a dual 31 band GEQ to the get-it-now list...
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Richard Turner on July 02, 2014, 06:00:24 PM
+1 on the Zed series, very comparable build quality to the mixwizard but a 1 circut board design with all the inputs on top. I would take it over a mackie/peavey/yamaha/similar level soundcraft any day of the week.

If an easy to use well layed out analog board is all you need fill yer boots. Bearing in mind ZED60-14FX is only a single mid eq and 1 aux for monitors, the larger model may be more versatile.

Original poster As for the whole deal please sit down with an old fashioned pad of paper and pencil and make the following lists:

technical rider for each band

size and SPL required for each band at the venues you gig

what gear you already have on hand and its "sell it this week on craigslist/pawn shop" value

what gear you will need, all of it, right down to mic clips cables extention cords mic cords tubs from walmart if you cant buy road cases.

Now , compare and contrast the true price of ownership vs hiring out. Are you as far ahead to continue to pay out to get a job done right or will this $2500 purchase have you fully capable of doing thus all yourself.

I am willing to guess the provider you are wanting to replace with yourself is using $12-$16K minimal in gear and you aren't realizing the full worth of the investment. I know people (venue security mostly) kinda look at me funny when I say to keep an eye on the mic/cable case. mostly is around $4000 retail value with all the little stuff factored in even for a `just need a few mics`gigs

Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Thomas Le on July 02, 2014, 06:15:34 PM
Here's what I came up with at Sweetwater:

- Soundcraft MFXi 8 ($500)
- Yamaha SM15V ($400 each, $800 for 2)
- On Stage Speaker Stands ($50 each, $100 for 2)
- 50 ft. Speakon cables ($60 each, $120 for 2)
- QSC GX7 ($600)
- dbx 231 ($200)

Total (excluding tax): $2,313.81

If OP can go 12 inch, then Yamaha SM12V ($350 each, $700 for 2).
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Rob Spence on July 02, 2014, 06:18:17 PM
Since the OP hasn't told us much about his application I think we are wasting time.


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Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Scott Bolt on July 02, 2014, 07:48:03 PM
I like Bob's post the best.

The fact is that you aren't going to get chest pounding rock from a $2500.00 system no matter what you pick.

As for the mixers, I agree with Steve.  I would go with the Soundcraft simply because it has 12 real XLR input channels.  You are inevitably going to run out of XLR inputs, and the Soundcraft gives you the most for the money on this front.
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Larry Lewis on July 02, 2014, 07:56:25 PM
Don't even think about buying new gear with a budget.  With the advent of new speakers and digital doodads, used systems are easier to come by and will be better, more capable gear for your stated use.

If you're buying new gear, you can usually save a bit by working through a dealer. Although this negates the possibility of financing, you can easily squeeze another 10-25% out of your budget.

Lots of folks are recommending analog mixers, but I'd take the lowly Studiolive 16.0.2 over the budget analog mixers any day. The only issue with the 16.0.2 which the other StudioLive mixers don't share is limited EQ on the aux sends. You're basically stuck with a 3-band parametric EQ for fighting feedback issues, with a full 31-band EQ on the main outputs. Not sure what they were thinking.

Yamaha DXR12 ($700 x 2): $1400
Pair of On-Stage Stands SS7761B: $100
PreSonus StudioLive 16.0.2: $1000

Total: $2500

Add a sub when you get more budget.

If you weren't stuck with Sweetwater and could get financing elsewhere, two of the better budget brands for active speakers are RCF and Alto. But neither are carried by Sweetwater. Using Amazon for example:

Alto Professional TS112A ($300 x 2): $600
Pair of On-Stage Stands SS7761B: $100
PreSonus StudioLive 16.0.2: $1000

Total: $1700

$800 closer to a sub.
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: jasonfinnigan on July 02, 2014, 08:36:32 PM
If you weren't stuck with Sweetwater and could get financing elsewhere, two of the better budget brands for active speakers are RCF and Alto.
RCF and Alto gear aren't really in the same class of gear. Alto makes all lower class MI gear. RCF is mainly higher end touring gear.
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Scott Holtzman on July 02, 2014, 11:22:06 PM
RCF and Alto gear aren't really in the same class of gear. Alto makes all lower class MI gear. RCF is mainly higher end touring gear.

Two cents here, I can't comment on speakers as I don't know the app but you can't beat the flexibility of a Mackie DL1608 if you already own an iPad.  You get all the eq and processing you need and you can walk the room as you mix.

I can tell you I have some ZLX 15's and 12's and they have a lot of bang for the buck and are holding up well.  Run from the elx118p subs they have an unreal failure rate.  Look how many returns music123 is trying to unload on eBay.



Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Cal Stone on July 03, 2014, 11:58:10 AM
Thanks for all the responses. I really appreciate the input and info you guys are offering up. I’ll try and answer the questions here:
•   I have NOT asked Heslip what gear he may be willing to sell me. He’s doing two events for me next weekend, and I’ll discuss it with him then.
•   I am always scouring the local Craigslists, but for basses, guitars and amps. I have started looking there for PA gear as well, but the pieces I mentioned originally haven’t been offered yet. I also look at the Chicago and Cleveland Craigslists because I’m located in between.
•   Size could be an issue. Some events may just be handled by my wife (for instance, if I’m gigging with my band at the same time), so I can’t get anything heavier than she can handle.
•   As for inputs I expect to put in it, the most I envision would be four vocal mics; possibly a line out from my bass amp; and a keyboard. The events are small, so I don’t think I’d ever be micing amps or drum sets. If it’s that big of an event, I’d use Heslip.
•   The venues will be small – a 100-seat club or restaurant; an outdoor farm-to-table event under a large tent with a 150 people and a trio or quartet band. Again, anything larger is Heslip’s job.
•   Styles of music: My bands are blues, a little rockabilly and country, some jazz. Many of the acts we book are the same. If it’s thumping rock, which is rare, it’s Heslip’s job.
•   Not very loud – small clubs, small outdoor events. Anything requiring major volume, like our big jazz/blues festival, is Heslip’s.
•   I have a Mazda 3 hatchback, which I think I can get a sub, two speakers, two stands, a mixer, and a few mics and stands. I can get an upright bass, electric bass and my Ampeg B100R I there with room to spare. I also have access to my in-laws nearby van, which I do use when I supply backline of drums and bass rig for our festivals.
•   Bob Leonard suggested passive speakers. Is that type of setup with a separate amplifier typically preferred over powered speakers? I’ve been playing in bands for 25 years, and remember the days of hauling all that separate gear – monitors, mains, mixer, amp, effects. The Bose was a revelation. 
•   Regarding Richard Turner’s suggestion, I wouldn’t have technical riders for bands. These are small events with local bands that are usually no bigger than a quintet. For our large festivals, yes, we riders for the national acts, and Heslip nails all those requirements. The PA I’m thinking about is for smaller, lower volume events. I have NO PA gear currently. Yes, generating a list of all the gear needed is smart and being started.
•   We have been debating using Heslip for these small events, but I wouldn’t use him for my band gigs as his fee wouldn’t really make it worthwhile for the musicians. I have no intention of replacing Heslip. If I do use him for these small hits, at what point would I be spending more than this $2,500? I’m guesstimating maybe three years.
•   I do not have an iPad, although one of the big local bands, Fifty Amp Fuse, uses a digital system that is incredibly cool. I know nothing about those. Is that something worth exploring, or is it beyond my budget?

Another reason I was thinking of the Yamaha DXR10s is that for my trio (bass, guitar, drums, two vocals), we could probably get away with one as a main and another as a monitor.
Again guys, thank you for the input. I’m learning much here!
Cal
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Brad Weber on July 03, 2014, 12:09:36 PM
You're basically stuck with a 3-band parametric EQ for fighting feedback issues, with a full 31-band EQ on the main outputs. Not sure what they were thinking.
Assuming they were limited in the processing available, possibly that parametric EQ is generally much more effective in addressing feedback while the main bus EQ would likely be used for more general 'artistic' equalization where a 1/3 octave EQ might be more effective.
 
Consider that in terms of DSP processing a 31 band graphic EQ is essentially a 31 band parametric EQ with pre-determined bandwidths and center band frequencies.  Back when programmable audo DSP devices had rather limited processing capability you quickly learned  to avoid graphic EQs except for where they really made sense.
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Rob Spence on July 03, 2014, 12:40:51 PM
Thanks for all the responses. I really appreciate the input and info you guys are offering up. I’ll try and answer the questions here:
•I have NOT asked Heslip what gear he may be willing to sell me. He’s doing two events for me next weekend, and I’ll discuss it with him then.
•I am always scouring the local Craigslists, but for basses, guitars and amps. I have started looking there for PA gear as well, but the pieces I mentioned originally haven’t been offered yet. I also look at the Chicago and Cleveland Craigslists because I’m located in between.
•Size could be an issue. Some events may just be handled by my wife (for instance, if I’m gigging with my band at the same time), so I can’t get anything heavier than she can handle.
•As for inputs I expect to put in it, the most I envision would be four vocal mics; possibly a line out from my bass amp; and a keyboard. The events are small, so I don’t think I’d ever be micing amps or drum sets. If it’s that big of an event, I’d use Heslip.
•The venues will be small – a 100-seat club or restaurant; an outdoor farm-to-table event under a large tent with a 150 people and a trio or quartet band. Again, anything larger is Heslip’s job.
•Styles of music: My bands are blues, a little rockabilly and country, some jazz. Many of the acts we book are the same. If it’s thumping rock, which is rare, it’s Heslip’s job.
•Not very loud – small clubs, small outdoor events. Anything requiring major volume, like our big jazz/blues festival, is Heslip’s.
•I have a Mazda 3 hatchback, which I think I can get a sub, two speakers, two stands, a mixer, and a few mics and stands. I can get an upright bass, electric bass and my Ampeg B100R I there with room to spare. I also have access to my in-laws nearby van, which I do use when I supply backline of drums and bass rig for our festivals.
•Bob Leonard suggested passive speakers. Is that type of setup with a separate amplifier typically preferred over powered speakers? I’ve been playing in bands for 25 years, and remember the days of hauling all that separate gear – monitors, mains, mixer, amp, effects. The Bose was a revelation. 
•Regarding Richard Turner’s suggestion, I wouldn’t have technical riders for bands. These are small events with local bands that are usually no bigger than a quintet. For our large festivals, yes, we riders for the national acts, and Heslip nails all those requirements. The PA I’m thinking about is for smaller, lower volume events. I have NO PA gear currently. Yes, generating a list of all the gear needed is smart and being started.
•We have been debating using Heslip for these small events, but I wouldn’t use him for my band gigs as his fee wouldn’t really make it worthwhile for the musicians. I have no intention of replacing Heslip. If I do use him for these small hits, at what point would I be spending more than this $2,500? I’m guesstimating maybe three years.
•I do not have an iPad, although one of the big local bands, Fifty Amp Fuse, uses a digital system that is incredibly cool. I know nothing about those. Is that something worth exploring, or is it beyond my budget?

Another reason I was thinking of the Yamaha DXR10s is that for my trio (bass, guitar, drums, two vocals), we could probably get away with one as a main and another as a monitor.
Again guys, thank you for the input. I’m learning much here!
Cal

Good information.

For small gigs I would not put the bass in the PA. Why? It takes a lot of PA to do justice to low frequencies. Except for little practice amps, most bass amps see to do fine by themselves. For me, if I am thinking bass in the pa, I am also thinking guitars and drums too. Now you need more pa.

I would get some decent 12" tops and stands, perhaps a used mixer and only put vocals and the keyboard in it.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: JohnCoxNC on July 03, 2014, 03:31:46 PM
I don't have any specific suggestions other than to say I've been very happy with my Sales Engineer at Sweetwater, Jeff Hollman.  He's never steered me wrong , and he's set me straight a time or two. 

Pardon my ignorance but I have a question related to a term I've seen twice in this thread and many other times elsewhere; MI level gear.  I get the idea, I just don't know what the abbreviation is referring too???  Thanks - John


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Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Tom Roche on July 03, 2014, 03:34:15 PM
Good information.

For small gigs I would not put the bass in the PA. Why? It takes a lot of PA to do justice to low frequencies. Except for little practice amps, most bass amps see to do fine by themselves. For me, if I am thinking bass in the pa, I am also thinking guitars and drums too. Now you need more pa.

I would get some decent 12" tops and stands, perhaps a used mixer and only put vocals and the keyboard in it.
I agree with Rob's great advice.  Since you mentioned speakers that your wife could handle, used EV SX300 or equivalent would likely work well for your application.  They're very light and sound pretty good. In this regard, perhaps you can swing some used gear and some new using your line of credit.

If you decide to look into digital, I'll 2nd the recommendation for the Mackie DL1608.  It's what my band uses and it works great for bar gigs.  To save money, look for a used iPad.  We got our DL1608 at GC for $800 out the door and a used iPad for $200 on a local classifieds.
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Tim McCulloch on July 03, 2014, 03:39:03 PM

Pardon my ignorance but I have a question related to a term I've seen twice in this thread and many other times elsewhere; MI level gear.  I get the idea, I just don't know what the abbreviation is referring too???  Thanks - John


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MI = Musical Instrument.  Originally used to delineate the retail sales outlets.  MI mean band instruments, pianos & organs, and guitars/basses/drums and related accessories, and to distinguish the models marketed to/through those retailers from the models and lines marketed through professional dealers, broadcast and recording studio suppliers, and the permanent installation market.
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: James A. Griffin on July 04, 2014, 11:48:57 AM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Is your name really JohnCoxNC?
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 04, 2014, 11:55:13 AM
I agree to the sx300 cabinets as well. They sound good and are light, plus the power requirements are low and they will make a decent monitor or small gig box when the OP upgrades.

I also think we should help the OP walk before he runs. I don't see any reason to introduce the complexity or additional costs of a digital board at this time.
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Tim McCulloch on July 04, 2014, 11:56:01 AM
Is your name really JohnCoxNC?

Because "John Cox" was already taken....
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on July 04, 2014, 01:55:33 PM
I have been a semi-pro bassist in blues bands for the past 18 years.

I also play in one band that uses a Bose L1 II system. We use it for three vocals and once in a while, depending on the room size, I'll run the line out from my Ampeg B100R bass amp into the Bose. Ninety-five percent of the time, the Bose is fine for our gigs. The other five percent, we wish we had a little more juice.

This right here says it all IMO, the OP has no need for a megawatt PA system just something with a little more juice than a single Bose L1 system. A pair of EV ZLX12p's with a single 15" sub would fit that bill, or a larger pair of mains like the JBL PRX15 or Yamaha DXS15 without a sub. I like form factor and simplicity of an A&H Zed or Soundcraft MFX but if you don't mind not having a traditional control surface the Mackie DL will give you more features and control.
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Cal Stone on July 04, 2014, 06:29:55 PM
I actually ran into my sound guy, Heslip, running sound for our town's Fourth of July parade. I talked to him a bit about our needs. He recommended -- although he cautioned that many people hate the brand -- a small Behringer mixer and a couple of powered 15s. He didn't say which brand of speakers, but said he would email me some links.

A local bassist I befriended recently plays in a new country band that uses a Mackie DL1608. I planned on coming out to their gig tonight to check it out, but after I talked to him, I started researching it. I don't think a digital mixer is right for me -- either pricewise or functionality (I can barely handle my car's computer screen thang). Heslip said he'd love one -- IF he was the sound guy for a touring band and saw the same lineup every night. Otherwise, he likes having all the controls right in front of him as opposed to scrolling through menus. He's probably around my age, 54, and likes old school too.
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: John Halliburton on July 04, 2014, 07:31:53 PM
I actually ran into my sound guy, Heslip, running sound for our town's Fourth of July parade. I talked to him a bit about our needs. He recommended -- although he cautioned that many people hate the brand -- a small Behringer mixer and a couple of powered 15s. He didn't say which brand of speakers, but said he would email me some links.

A local bassist I befriended recently plays in a new country band that uses a Mackie DL1608. I planned on coming out to their gig tonight to check it out, but after I talked to him, I started researching it. I don't think a digital mixer is right for me -- either pricewise or functionality (I can barely handle my car's computer screen thang). Heslip said he'd love one -- IF he was the sound guy for a touring band and saw the same lineup every night. Otherwise, he likes having all the controls right in front of him as opposed to scrolling through menus. He's probably around my age, 54, and likes old school too.

Going digital won't be as bad as you think, lots of us post 50 types have done it.  Honestly, it's the way the industry has been going for many years anyway.  One of the big benefits is the smaller and lighter package combined with a lot of firepower under one hood.

Say hi to Joe for me.  He used to hang out here, and we had a great subwoofer shootout at his work many years ago.

I lived in the area as a kid, and if I remember correctly, Joe's 4th of July gig is in the same town.

Best regards,

John
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Cal Stone on July 04, 2014, 07:37:46 PM
Yes, I could probably figure out the digital in due time, but if I'm looking at $900 for the DL1608 and then an iPad for, what, another $400 or $500? And then you need a WiFi router, too, right?
I guess I need to research digital a bit more, too.

Joe Heslip is a godsend for our company. I got lucky -- he was the first, and has been the only, sound guy I've ever used for our events. He makes all his speaker cabinets, and they sound incredible. And he's a great guy.
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on July 04, 2014, 07:52:52 PM
Yes, I could probably figure out the digital in due time, but if I'm looking at $900 for the DL1608 and then an iPad for, what, another $400 or $500? And then you need a WiFi router, too, right?
I guess I need to research digital a bit more, too.

Joe Heslip is a godsend for our company. I got lucky -- he was the first, and has been the only, sound guy I've ever used for our events. He makes all his speaker cabinets, and they sound incredible. And he's a great guy.

Not necessarily.  You can use an iPad mini and they're selling new for $250.00.  The 1608 requires no router and you can probably find a deal on one new or used.

The deal with digital is that your cabling is now "virtual".  Other than that, it's pretty much the same...just smaller and lighter and, considering what you get for the money...cheaper.  I'd suggest you check it out further before committing.
Title: I need a PA system
Post by: James A. Griffin on July 04, 2014, 07:55:01 PM
I actually ran into my sound guy, Heslip, running sound for our town's Fourth of July parade. I talked to him a bit about our needs. He recommended -- although he cautioned that many people hate the brand -- a small Behringer mixer and a couple of powered 15s. He didn't say which brand of speakers, but said he would email me

You've gotten some decent usable advice here.   At some point thus will just come down to taste / budget / application    Take some of the comments and mix to your liking

My two cents:

1). Don't be afraid of at $300-500 mixer from Behringer, Peavey, or whoever.  For the kind of gigs and venues you'll be doing, there will be little, if any audible differences in the the $1000 and under mixers.   Buy the one that has the inputs and features you want

2).  Go with the powered speakers.   Stupid easy to transport and set up. With built in amps  and processing, you've eliminated extra gear and headaches.

3).  I've never been crazy about the tonal qualities of a two way 15" box.   12" always sound smoother.  But maybe that's just me.  EV ZLX are great at their price point.  If you were able to step up to a PRX or QSC K series, you'd have a great sound that would impress anyone at the gigs you're doing now and beyond.

Let us know what you get and how it works out .






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Title: I need a PA system
Post by: James A. Griffin on July 04, 2014, 07:58:50 PM
Quote from: dick rees link=topic=150428.msg1379662#msg1379662

dateThe 1608 requires no router





[/quote

Huh?



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Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Jay Barracato on July 04, 2014, 08:04:13 PM



Yes, I could probably figure out the digital in due time, but if I'm looking at $900 for the DL1608 and then an iPad for, what, another $400 or $500? And then you need a WiFi router, too, right?
I guess I need to research digital a bit more, too.

Joe Heslip is a godsend for our company. I got lucky -- he was the first, and has been the only, sound guy I've ever used for our events. He makes all his speaker cabinets, and they sound incredible. And he's a great guy.

Here is a thought that I don't think was mentioned. I bet all of us hardcore digital guys still have at least one decent analog board as an emergency backup. If you buy a decent analog board now, even if it is replaced by a digital board in the future, the analog board will still have a role in your complete setup.

I am partial to rackmounts but the other smaller ones fit nicely in briefcase style cases.

I would look for:
16 channels to do a basic rock band, 4 band eq plus low cut per channel, 4 auxes for monitors plus a couple for effects, a usable meter and pfl scheme.

I think I just described a mixwiz.

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Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on July 04, 2014, 08:11:10 PM
[quote author=dick rees link=topic=150428.msg1379662#msg1379662

dateThe 1608 requires no router




James...

It does not require a router for use when docked.


Huh?



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Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Cal Stone on July 04, 2014, 08:14:50 PM
Is there a thread here that explains digital to newbies?
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: jasonfinnigan on July 04, 2014, 08:19:25 PM
Is there a thread here that explains digital to newbies?
You can always start one and ask a question. There not much to them they carry digital audio over Cat5e, Cat6 or Fiber using different audio transmission protocols AES50, Dante Ethersound etc.
Fundamentally it is the same concept is VoIP, but without the compression or latency and much more reliable. They generally also offer remote control of the Headamps.
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Cal Stone on July 04, 2014, 08:23:31 PM
I have no idea what most of that means. And by "most", I mean everything after your first sentence.
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Jay Barracato on July 04, 2014, 08:31:58 PM
Is there a thread here that explains digital to newbies?

There really isn't much mystery. As it was said before the processing is all being done in the same unit so there is no cabling. There is usually the option for more processing per channel. But it just comes down to signal flow.

Think of an analog boards channel. The signal comes in and goes to a pre amp. Then you have the insert where you can place things likes gates or compressors. On the analog board you plug in a separate unit and set up your settings on the outboard unit.

On a digital board the outboard is already in place and if you want it you just turn it on.

Other signal processing you split off a copy of a portion of the signal like for effects or monitors. These are the auxes on an analog board. On digital they are separate buses. Once again they are in place and you turn them on if you need them.

Finally some signal processing is done in line with the signal like eq or crossovers. On an analog board these are daisy chained onto an output jack. On digital they are in place before the jack. Once again turn them on if needed.

Once upon a time people made a big deal about the analog digital conversions that happens in digital at the beginning and end of the chain. I have not found that to be meaningful when comparing any professional quality board made in the last 5+ years.

So basically the digital board does many functions in one unit. It definitely gives you more flexibility when dealing with problems at shows but you basically need to understand what those tools do ( whether the analog or digital versions) to be able to put them to use.

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Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Jay Barracato on July 04, 2014, 08:35:28 PM
I have no idea what most of that means. And by "most", I mean everything after your first sentence.

It doesn't mean anything to your basic question because we are talking about digital mixers not digital audio distribution schemes.

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Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on July 04, 2014, 08:45:40 PM
I have no idea what most of that means. And by "most", I mean everything after your first sentence.

Likely PWI...

For starters regarding digital you can open a PDF of the user manual and read through it.  The only thing is that in the digital era the manuals can be a tad sketchy since the product can add/change features with software updates and it doesn't pay to go into depth in the manuals.

But the processes are the same:

Set input gain, solo channels, apply EQ/processing, etc, etc, etc.  you just do it all with a single set of controls and SELECT the channel/bus/mix on which you want to work.  An hour with the manual and the mixer and you'll be fine.
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Jay Barracato on July 04, 2014, 09:02:23 PM
I feel like I gave said this before but I know a huge number of bands that bounce between small provide your own rig gigs and larger events. I also like to do smaller intimate events.

At this level, the skill of the operator makes a far greater difference then the specific equipment.

Knowing that for some percentage of the gigs sound will be provided (larger venues with installed systems or festivals etc.), I would plan on my rig covering about 75% of the gigs we are going to book. The remaining 25% I would make sure the budget will allow me to hire a company with appropriate equipment and the staff to run it.

So to me that means:
4-6 12 inch powered speakers. 2 for mains and 2-4 for monitors. Buying all the same means they can be swapped out as needed. I would buy from the upper level of MI offerings. Take your choice of the qsc, Yamaha, jbl, rcf, etc. offerings.

2-4 18 inch subs. I would purchase the same line as the tops to have a complete system.

I would put the bulk of my money into mics and speakers. They make the biggest difference to your final sound.

Add a mixwiz and a couple of dbx eq's plus someone who cares about what they are doing and you will be prepared to blow away what 95% of the bands or even small providers put up in bars, tent events, patio gigs etc. around here.

For example at a recent walkup event for me working as a band tech, the provider had a single vrx over sub per side with mrx monitors run by a behringer x32. This was for an audience of 150-200 tightly packed on a lawn. The further audience member was maybe 60 feet from the stage platform. It was a perfect example of decent equipment improperly deployed that I had to fight the rig the entire show to get to just OK.

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Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Ray Aberle on July 04, 2014, 09:41:20 PM
For example at a recent walkup event for me working as a band tech, the provider had a single vrx over sub per side with mrx monitors run by a behringer x32. This was for an audience of 150-200 tightly packed on a lawn. The further audience member was maybe 60 feet from the stage platform. It was a perfect example of decent equipment improperly deployed that I had to fight the rig the entire show to get to just OK.

*one* VRX top per side? Yeah, been there, done that, and not something I would want to repeat...

-Ray
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: jasonfinnigan on July 04, 2014, 10:20:18 PM
It doesn't mean anything to your basic question because we are talking about digital mixers not digital audio distribution schemes.

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And digital snakes are part of digital mixers.. in fact many are requiring them as the DSP is in some of them and the board is just a control surface.
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on July 04, 2014, 10:32:00 PM
And digital snakes are part of digital mixers.. in fact many are requiring them as the DSP is in some of them and the board is just a control surface.

RM/PL

Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Scott Holtzman on July 04, 2014, 11:49:22 PM
The 1608 requires no router and you can probably find a deal on one new or used.



That's actually not true.  It doesn't need a router per se but most people use that term generically to discuss Wireless Access Points (WAP's) or sometimes even switches.  If you use a router as a WAP it will also have DHCP functionality, the ability to automatically assign IP addresses to devices on the network.  This is handy as digital mixers become more popular the band members want to control their monitor mix (especially IEM users) with an app.

We also have had massive thread creep.  The original budget was 2500.  I stand by my original statement that needs to be stretched a bit.  A Mackie DL-1608 is the right fit.  You could use the $2500 credit for good subs and tops then maybe go to American Musical that has 90 days same as cash if you have a valid credit card in your name.
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Steve M Smith on July 05, 2014, 03:45:52 AM
Is there a thread here that explains digital to newbies?

Not sure but there are some great tutorials on YouTube.

If you already know your way around an analogue mixer, just approach a digital mixer with an attitude that you can do it and you should be o.k.

They are designed for people who are used to analogue so there are no secret tricks you need to learn to get sound out of them.


Steve.
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on July 05, 2014, 04:32:26 AM
That's actually not true.  It doesn't need a router per se but most people use that term generically to discuss Wireless Access Points (WAP's) or sometimes even switches.  If you use a router as a WAP it will also have DHCP functionality, the ability to automatically assign IP addresses to devices on the network.  This is handy as digital mixers become more popular the band members want to control their monitor mix (especially IEM users) with an app.

We also have had massive thread creep.  The original budget was 2500.  I stand by my original statement that needs to be stretched a bit.  A Mackie DL-1608 is the right fit.  You could use the $2500 credit for good subs and tops then maybe go to American Musical that has 90 days same as cash if you have a valid credit card in your name.

It's true and it's not.

You CAN use the 1608 with the iPad docked WITHOUT a router.  If you want to go wireless, you add a router.  So you can save the cost of the router initially, then pick one up when you want or you have the cash.

Oh for the days of "no interest for balance transfers" credit cards.  I bought $35K worth of gear  on my credit card, then switched the balance to a new card with the "no interest...." offer and paid not a cent of interest for the 3.5 years it took to pay off the balance.
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Steve M Smith on July 05, 2014, 05:10:32 AM
Oh for the days of "no interest for balance transfers" credit cards

Do you not have those any more? Here in the UK I can find lots of cards offering 0% interest for 24 or even 30 months.

Great for people who are good with their finances - terrible for people who are not!


Steve.
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Ray Aberle on July 05, 2014, 07:42:52 AM
Do you not have those any more? Here in the UK I can find lots of cards offering 0% interest for 24 or even 30 months.

Great for people who are good with their finances - terrible for people who are not!


Steve.

I think they've cut down on some of those cos people couldn't read the fine print and got screwed when the rates adjusted/the accrued finance charges hit them/whatever.

I still leverage my Banjo Hut line of credit annually, minimum payments, no interest, as long as I keep paying off when I need to, no problem!

-Ray
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Jay Barracato on July 05, 2014, 09:48:15 AM
And digital snakes are part of digital mixers.. in fact many are requiring them as the DSP is in some of them and the board is just a control surface.

Are you purposely trying to confuse the issue? Or are you trying to impress everyone with your excessive knowledge?

You are succeeding at the first and failing once again at the second.

I would not use the descriptor "many" to describe the number of boards that "require" digital snakes, especially at the price point the OP is shopping at.

Add in the fact the OP is talking about gigs that typically require the board at the same location as the band and the whole snake portion becomes a mute point. We would be better off talking about wireless mixing options.

Once again, you are no where near being on topic with relevant information to the original posters question. It is no wonder why your messages end up in so many iggy bins.
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on July 05, 2014, 11:32:18 AM
Are you purposely trying to confuse the issue? Or are you trying to impress everyone with your excessive knowledge?

You are succeeding at the first and failing once again at the second.

I would not use the descriptor "many" to describe the number of boards that "require" digital snakes, especially at the price point the OP is shopping at.

Add in the fact the OP is talking about gigs that typically require the board at the same location as the band and the whole snake portion becomes a mute point. We would be better off talking about wireless mixing options.

Once again, you are no where near being on topic with relevant information to the original posters question. It is no wonder why your messages end up in so many iggy bins.

Jay, et al...

I'm pretty much in agreement that JF's posts tend towards pointing out how much he knows rather than addressing the topic coupled with a few coat-tail grasping "me too's" on actually informative posts.  I have him in limbo between reply and ignore only because so much of his stuff either misses the mark, is off-topic and misleading and sometimes just enough askew as to be dangerous.

His posts deserve scrutiny and refutation where appropriate.  I refer to the sin, not the sinner....
and he's definitely not the only responder who often seems not to have actually followed the discussion.

When a thread gets to the point where we spend more time criticizing responses than furthering the topic, I'd say it's time for a lock.
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 05, 2014, 12:30:51 PM
How did this turn from "I have $2500..." into a pissing contest? The guy has a dollar limit and the initial goal was to fit him into a working system he could use without extending the budget. I'm not known for purchasing crap on a whim and from what I can read neither is the OP. Digital, snakes, Ipads?? WTF.
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Steve M Smith on July 05, 2014, 12:37:31 PM
How did this turn from "I have $2500..." into a pissing contest?

No idea.  So far, your post on page one of this thread has been the most useful one.


Steve.
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Tim McCulloch on July 05, 2014, 01:29:27 PM
Not sure but there are some great tutorials on YouTube.

If you already know your way around an analogue mixer, just approach a digital mixer with an attitude that you can do it and you should be o.k.

They are designed for people who are used to analogue so there are no secret tricks you need to learn to get sound out of them.


Steve.

Great comment, Steve.  As an Olde Analogue Luddite there was an expectation that something... something... was radically different about mixing in the digital domain, or so I thought.

The only thing different is the meter scaling.  0-dBFS rather than VU.  Set input trim to -20dBFS and a digital mixer will behave very much like an analog mixer.

The primary issue that I've found, after over 20 years of analog mixing, is familiarity with the user interface.  Every analog mixer is very much a 'form follows function' design and because of that, there is little difference between most small and medium format analog mixers.  The UI for digital mixing is much more flexible and subject to a steeper learning curve... but it's the UI, not mixing, that needs learned.  We can fault console designer's interpretation of user needs/wants and the ever sharp accountants pencil because to make a digital mixer more like analog UI, we need to put more controls in more places - that top surface real estate and the controls themselves come at a cost.

So in my long and roundabout way, the best way to learn to use a digital mixer is to... wait for it...  just go out and use the damn thing.  Take it to a low pressure gig, play DJ for your kid's birthday party, something where you can make a few mistakes while you learn where Soundcraft or Behringer or Allen-Heath "hid" the function you need to access, or by what name that function is called or how it operates.  Nobody learned to ride a bicycle without practice (and probably training wheels)...

Tim "hasn't mixed an analog concert in 4 years" Mc

ps.  As an IATSE stage hand I've seen only 3 analog FOH setups at arena/stadium concerts in the last 4 years.
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: jasonfinnigan on July 05, 2014, 01:40:39 PM
Jay, et al...

I'm pretty much in agreement that JF's posts tend towards pointing out how much he knows rather than addressing the topic coupled with a few coat-tail grasping "me too's" on actually informative posts.  I have him in limbo between reply and ignore only because so much of his stuff either misses the mark, is off-topic and misleading and sometimes just enough askew as to be dangerous.

His posts deserve scrutiny and refutation where appropriate.  I refer to the sin, not the sinner....
and he's definitely not the only responder who often seems not to have actually followed the discussion.

When a thread gets to the point where we spend more time criticizing responses than furthering the topic, I'd say it's time for a lock.

Any you like being a Dick in all your posts. Guess there is a reason you have that name.
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Steve M Smith on July 05, 2014, 01:41:48 PM
As an Olde Analogue Luddite

So in my long and roundabout way, the best way to learn to use a digital mixer is to... wait for it...  just go out and use the damn thing.

I am also an Olde Analogue Luddite (in more ways than one - I own seventy film cameras too).

I'm no expert on digital mixing having only used two so far.  I found this excellent forum about a year ago when I realised I was going to be using an X32 a local club had recently installed.  I read what I could here and watched a few YouTube tutorials then I printed out some of the quick start guide and some of my own notes.  I found the X32 intuitive and didn't need the guide or the notes - which was just as well as I had left them at home.
Then a few weeks ago I was asked if I could do a mini folk festival with about an hour's notice.  I got there and had a three minute tutorial on the mixer - a Soundcraft Si3 Expression.  I found this even more intuitive and just about everything on it made sense.
Now in both of these cases, I was just walking in, using the equipment and going home again.  The setup had already been done.
I appreciate that there is a steeper learning curve to setting up a digital mixer - assigning reverbs, etc, but if you owned it, an hour or two with it set up at home plugged into your hi-fi would soon teach you what you needed to know.


Steve.
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Jason Simonds on July 06, 2014, 11:19:27 AM
This is my first post, so I'll ask all of you now to forgive my ignorance about live sound.

I would like to get a system to use -- definitely for the second band, once in a while for the first band, and also possibly for small events that don't require our sound company.

I know I haven't given a ton of info here, but hopefully you will ask for specifics that will help determine the system to purchase

Thanks!

...and this is my first post.

I have been in a  band for a couple of years and over the last winter I researched and then bought a new core for our band... and by core I mean mixer/effects/amps.  We have been getting along with a a Crown CE1000, a real basic 8 channel mixer, without effects or even monitors. As the vocalist, I wanted more... I wanted a couple of monitor sends and a way to power them.. I wanted effects... more channels on the board etc etc.... what I just said could spend a chunk of change... but we are a small band... with a puny budget.. or rather I have a day job and it's my money... 

So I looked at powered mixers... sigh.. Peavey, Yamaha,Behringer, mackie, etc etc... all have some good basic offerings, but they all fell short in some way and they all cost a fair bit.... $500-$800 say.... and I was shopping new... some gear I just wouldn't want to by used... mixers and amps are two... so then I found a link to Carvin.. and their boxen like powered mixers seemed to have more functionality for the price level than any other offerings out there. The more I looked the more I was hooked.... I then spent a few months digging for dirt... why would someone not buy one... and I did this for all the brands I was looking at... I also looked at price points... AH makes a dandy unit, but it costs way more than what I ended up with, and when I compared what I was paying to what any one else was offering for power and features, it seemed like a no-brainer. so after months of research and reading I pulled the trigger on a Carvin C1648P. I bought a scratched unit for $799.

http://www.carvinguitars.com/manuals/cmixer-brochure-operating-guide-revG.pdf (http://www.carvinguitars.com/manuals/cmixer-brochure-operating-guide-revG.pdf)

The huge limitation on this setup is raw power, but I don't need that, and that is always just $299 away for a 2 channel amp ( oh hey, we have one in the Crown we now use!!)

One box to rule them al, eh?... it is a small gamble in that I could encounter issues, and it will hurt, but there are 4 amps in the box, 6 monitor sends ( 2 powered) 4 sub channels, effects, compression...

For the money, it gives me a level of options and control that I couldn't fins else where... I was unable to find any convincing feedback about Carvin after months of looking... I might still get bit, but so far the unit has been the nuts... a 4 band gig at a small festival venue went off great..... we ran 3 monitor channels, and the mains off the system all day long... the bar gig was awesome...
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Rick Powell on July 06, 2014, 12:50:47 PM
Jason,

The Carvin, Peavey XR series and Yamaha powered mixers probably get the most love for those who use them at LAB (most folks here have separate mixing boards and either power amps and passive speakers or powered speakers).  If you're always mixing from stage it's a viable option for small rooms.  Your model's four powered channels are a bonus for those who have some passive mains and mons and don't need a lot of power.  I have used several Carvin pieces over the years - don't have a lot good to say for their speakers or amps, but their mixers have generally been OK; did a walk up sound job on a 24 channel Carvin mixer last month and was able to get a decent mix on it.  One of my old bands' guitarists had a made by Dynacord EV PSX 2000 powered mixer that was a very high quality unit for the genre, but it only had stereo power for the mains and we needed an external amp for the mons.  Not sure if they make it anymore.
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Jason Simonds on July 06, 2014, 09:34:01 PM
Jason,

The Carvin, Peavey XR series and Yamaha powered mixers probably get the most love for those who use them at LAB (most folks here have separate mixing boards and either power amps and passive speakers or powered speakers).  If you're always mixing from stage it's a viable option for small rooms.  Your model's four powered channels are a bonus for those who have some passive mains and mons and don't need a lot of power.

..and there in, the key.. we don't need a ton of power... and we already have JRX115's for mains and i have picked up 2 pair of NIB JRX112m @ $350 a pair/shipped over the last year... ( cheap for these methinks)

If i were to start from scratch.. I might still stay with passive speakers..

Those 4 amps make a huge difference.. powering 2 mains and two mons from the single box, and the effects etce.. we use a 3rd mon feed to a powered stand monitor for the drummer...

Like I said I mixed three other bands last month at a fesitval... one band had 3 vox, keys, sax, acoustic guitar, drum kick and harp oh and another mic on a mini amp when a guy sat it..   it was a pleasure to run...

the key to my choice was the weighing of features vs money...  no way could I afford what I got in components... all that said.. the Crown and the old mixing board will come on gigs with us...
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Thomas Le on July 06, 2014, 11:49:36 PM
IMO I find Carvin to be a good alternative For The Price in the territory where behringer holds on speakers and amps. As atrocious as this sounds, I've used 1540 mains with 742 monitors powered by DCM2000 mixed on a DX1642 mixer, and the results were excellent for what costed back then.


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Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Scott Holtzman on July 07, 2014, 01:15:58 AM
IMO I find Carvin to be a good alternative For The Price in the territory where behringer holds on speakers and amps. As atrocious as this sounds, I've used 1540 mains with 742 monitors powered by DCM2000 mixed on a DX1642 mixer, and the results were excellent for what costed back then.


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If you know what you are doing, and you are not asking equipment to do what it was not designed for a pro with good ears can make nearly anything sound acceptable.

The converse is also true, a hack can make the most expensive gear sound unacceptable.

Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: claude cascioli on July 09, 2014, 09:47:34 AM
This is my first post, so I'll ask all of you now to forgive my ignorance about live sound.

I have been a semi-pro bassist in blues bands for the past 18 years. My wife and I also own a company that for the past seven years books musicians for festivals and a club or two. We always use a really fine local sound company, Joe Heslip Audio, to handle all these events. Great guys with excellent gear and great ears -- and musicians love them.

I also play in one band that uses a Bose L1 II system. We use it for three vocals and once in a while, depending on the room size, I'll run the line out from my Ampeg B100R bass amp into the Bose. Ninety-five percent of the time, the Bose is fine for our gigs. The other five percent, we wish we had a little more juice.

For my second band, the drummer (same as first band) bought a JBL EON 210P. Cool concept but it doesn't have any balls.

I would like to get a system to use -- definitely for the second band, once in a while for the first band, and also possibly for small events that don't require our sound company.

I have been looking at powered speakers, but so far I've only listened to the EV ZLX series at Guitar Center. Since then, I've just been researching online and trying to figure out what would best fit my needs. That's when I stumbled upon this site.

Some other speakers that seem to fit the bill for me are the Yamaha DXR10 and the RCF 310. Would you recommend a sub with either of these? If so, is it best to stick with the same brand, like the Yamaha DXS15?

Also, would just one sub be adequate and then mount the tops on stands? Or is it better to get two subs and mount the tops on poles above them? Might be overkill for my needs though.

This system would be mainly for clubs and once in a while a small outdoor event under a tent.

As for mixers, I've been looking at the Allen & Heath ZED60-14FX and the Yamaha MG16XU. Compared to the Bose and the EON, these may seem like more channels than I need, but I don't want to run into a situation with a band or an event that requires more than I've got.

Budget-wise, I just opened a $2,500 line of credit with Sweetwater. A pair of DXR10s, one DXS15 sub and the Yamaha mixer would max those funds out. I definitely don't want to spend more than that, and I'm open to your thoughts on other gear that may be more suitable to my needs.

I know I haven't given a ton of info here, but hopefully you will ask for specifics that will help determine the system to purchase.

Thanks!

cal
honestly. 2500.00 wont even get you a good set of speakers. stay away from the lower cost systems beacause there crap. the best speaker i found that sound great and does not blow up is the qsc kw153 and the k 12 these are great sounding speakers. stay away from gc and the mail order houses they will tell you anything to make a sale. look around for used gear. i recomend trying to find some ev sx 500 speaker they sound great there a little bigger but light weight. qsc powerlight amps a 1.8 would work great older consoles to look at are soundcraft  allen and heath and the midas venice series. but buying new gear is a waste. i find most of the gear in music stores nothing but junk. i own a sound company and buy only older gear why its a lot better than 90 percent of the gear out there. ask the sound co youre dealing with now if he has any gear he wants to sell. and even 2500.00 is not a lot for even a good used pa.
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Josh Millward on July 11, 2014, 04:42:30 PM
Hi Cal,

So you want more functionality than the Bose L1 II system, but you don't want to spend a fortune, AND you have a $2500 line of credit at Sweetwater?

Well, let's go shopping!

1 - On-Stage Stands SS7761B/SSB6500 Bundle - 2-Pack Speaker Stands w/Bag (SSP7950) Item ID: SpkStdBagBun $119.95
1 - SKB Gig Rig - A home for all your gear Item ID: GigRig $544.99
2 - Raxxess ESD-4 - 4RU Rack Drawer Item ID: ESD4 $138.40 each, $276.80
1 - Raxxess ESD-2 - 2RU Rack Drawer Item ID: ESD2 $112.80
4 - Shure SM-58 Microphones Item ID: SM58 $99 each, $396
4 - K&M 210/2 Mic Stand Item ID: KM2102BK $79.99 each, $319.96
2 - K&M 21421 Mic Stand Carrying Case Item ID: KM21421 $28.99 each, $57.98
2 - Whirlwind IMP2 Direct Box Item ID: IMP2 $49.89 each, 99.87
1 - Raxxess PTSW-25 Rack Screws Item ID: RkScrew25 $5.12
1 - ProCo EXM-25, 10 pack Excellines 25' Mic Cables Item ID: XLR25-10pk
2 - Peavey PVxP 12 Loudspeakers Item ID: PVxP12 $349.99 each, $699.98
1 - Peavey PV 10 Compact Mixer with built in effects Item ID: PV10 $269.99
1 - Peavey PV 10 Rack Kit Rack ears for mixer Item ID: PV10Ear $17.99

This gives us a complete packaged system, ready to roll out the door and work for a grand total of $3,121.33. Yes, this is a touch over your budget of $2,500, but EVERYTHING except power is included, mics, stands, cables, etc. This is a complete and ready to go system.

I'm sure there will be plenty of crying about the Peavey gear, as well as accolades for the K&M stands, not to mention the SM-58's are just industry standards and you will never go wrong owning those. However, the Peavey gear is in there not because I work for them, it is because when you spill a drink in there or otherwise damage it, you can actually send it to your local repair place and get it fixed. If they can't or won't handle it, you can send it right back to Peavey and they will fix it. Considering their price, I've been fairly impressed with the PVxP loudspeakers.

If you feel like you need a little more thump from the system, go ahead and add the PVxP sub.

Anyway, whatever you end up doing, have fun and good luck!

This is my first post, so I'll ask all of you now to forgive my ignorance about live sound.

I have been a semi-pro bassist in blues bands for the past 18 years. My wife and I also own a company that for the past seven years books musicians for festivals and a club or two. We always use a really fine local sound company, Joe Heslip Audio, to handle all these events. Great guys with excellent gear and great ears -- and musicians love them.

I also play in one band that uses a Bose L1 II system. We use it for three vocals and once in a while, depending on the room size, I'll run the line out from my Ampeg B100R bass amp into the Bose. Ninety-five percent of the time, the Bose is fine for our gigs. The other five percent, we wish we had a little more juice.

For my second band, the drummer (same as first band) bought a JBL EON 210P. Cool concept but it doesn't have any balls.

I would like to get a system to use -- definitely for the second band, once in a while for the first band, and also possibly for small events that don't require our sound company.

I have been looking at powered speakers, but so far I've only listened to the EV ZLX series at Guitar Center. Since then, I've just been researching online and trying to figure out what would best fit my needs. That's when I stumbled upon this site.

Some other speakers that seem to fit the bill for me are the Yamaha DXR10 and the RCF 310. Would you recommend a sub with either of these? If so, is it best to stick with the same brand, like the Yamaha DXS15?

Also, would just one sub be adequate and then mount the tops on stands? Or is it better to get two subs and mount the tops on poles above them? Might be overkill for my needs though.

This system would be mainly for clubs and once in a while a small outdoor event under a tent.

As for mixers, I've been looking at the Allen & Heath ZED60-14FX and the Yamaha MG16XU. Compared to the Bose and the EON, these may seem like more channels than I need, but I don't want to run into a situation with a band or an event that requires more than I've got.

Budget-wise, I just opened a $2,500 line of credit with Sweetwater. A pair of DXR10s, one DXS15 sub and the Yamaha mixer would max those funds out. I definitely don't want to spend more than that, and I'm open to your thoughts on other gear that may be more suitable to my needs.

I know I haven't given a ton of info here, but hopefully you will ask for specifics that will help determine the system to purchase.

Thanks!
Title: Re: I need a PA system
Post by: Scott Holtzman on July 11, 2014, 07:08:19 PM
Hi Cal,

So you want more functionality than the Bose L1 II system, but you don't want to spend a fortune, AND you have a $2500 line of credit at Sweetwater?

Well, let's go shopping!

1 - On-Stage Stands SS7761B/SSB6500 Bundle - 2-Pack Speaker Stands w/Bag (SSP7950) Item ID: SpkStdBagBun $119.95
1 - SKB Gig Rig - A home for all your gear Item ID: GigRig $544.99
2 - Raxxess ESD-4 - 4RU Rack Drawer Item ID: ESD4 $138.40 each, $276.80
1 - Raxxess ESD-2 - 2RU Rack Drawer Item ID: ESD2 $112.80
4 - Shure SM-58 Microphones Item ID: SM58 $99 each, $396
4 - K&M 210/2 Mic Stand Item ID: KM2102BK $79.99 each, $319.96
2 - K&M 21421 Mic Stand Carrying Case Item ID: KM21421 $28.99 each, $57.98
2 - Whirlwind IMP2 Direct Box Item ID: IMP2 $49.89 each, 99.87
1 - Raxxess PTSW-25 Rack Screws Item ID: RkScrew25 $5.12
1 - ProCo EXM-25, 10 pack Excellines 25' Mic Cables Item ID: XLR25-10pk
2 - Peavey PVxP 12 Loudspeakers Item ID: PVxP12 $349.99 each, $699.98
1 - Peavey PV 10 Compact Mixer with built in effects Item ID: PV10 $269.99
1 - Peavey PV 10 Rack Kit Rack ears for mixer Item ID: PV10Ear $17.99

This gives us a complete packaged system, ready to roll out the door and work for a grand total of $3,121.33. Yes, this is a touch over your budget of $2,500, but EVERYTHING except power is included, mics, stands, cables, etc. This is a complete and ready to go system.

I'm sure there will be plenty of crying about the Peavey gear, as well as accolades for the K&M stands, not to mention the SM-58's are just industry standards and you will never go wrong owning those. However, the Peavey gear is in there not because I work for them, it is because when you spill a drink in there or otherwise damage it, you can actually send it to your local repair place and get it fixed. If they can't or won't handle it, you can send it right back to Peavey and they will fix it. Considering their price, I've been fairly impressed with the PVxP loudspeakers.

If you feel like you need a little more thump from the system, go ahead and add the PVxP sub.

Anyway, whatever you end up doing, have fun and good luck!

Josh is dead on, you need a complete system.  My basic system EV ZLX12's, older heavily mod'd Mackie powered subs (really just Mackie cabinets), an x32 producer, MIC's., cables, stands, power distribution, covers, cases, DI's a WAP is 10k.  That system earns 250-350 a night including my fat ass.

The next tangible step up is 35k with SRX's, QSC Amp's, larger selection of MIC's, SI Expression 3, good wireless gear, road cases etc. 

Until you get above that you are dealing with gear engineered for a price point not a performance target.  There is very little tangible differentiation.  Spending 10 or even 30% more doesn't move you up the ladder.  It's lateral.  We have all made the mistake of paying 20k for a 10k system by buying the wrong gear along the way. 

The only way to save money is to scour the used market and frankly unless you are older and lived in the days when a soldering iron and a VTVM were must have items in your tool box the used gear can bite you hard.