ProSoundWeb Community
Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Debbie Dunkley on February 23, 2014, 12:06:00 PM
-
I was out last night with the band I work with 80% of the time.
The singer has just started to have some hearing concerns - ringing and such and is getting concerned that she is losing some hearing. She was wearing ear plugs last night. The guitar player was wearing them also.
The last 2 gigs they performed, they used other folks to do sound and it seems they had issues with monitors among other things which I must say they never have with me doing the sound -I always provide good clear effective monitor mixes and very rarely get feedback issues. The musicians I work with very rarely complain...yet all was good the last few gigs I did for them and ironically now these changes.
This caused me some problems. The guitar player was crazy loud through his backline - because he couldn't hear himself - and this made it difficult for me. Also the singer had her monitor levels ridiculously high again because she couldn't hear herself on stage. It was a tough night.
So........the singer had mentioned going iem.
The drummer already uses a wired iem system so a non-issue. Going this route would allow me to get plenty of guitar level to the guitarists iem and take care of the excessive volume on stage and of course we want to preserve the singers hearing - the girl can wail.
I'd like to make the investment to help them a bit - benefits me too of course. I have never dealt with such sophisticated monitoring techniques - he he....
What would be a good starting point for me to get going with this?
I read that bands go in together and 'share' a system with separate receivers. And then I read that there are individual systems. Bit confusing to me right now so if I am going to make the investment, and offer the iem system as an alternative to wedges (I already use nice equipment - SRX / Crown/ QU16 etc ) , I want to make the right choice - buy once cry once !!
One more thing....the guitarist and bass player use wireless for their instruments but just SM's for mics and the singer uses a wireless Sennheiser.
Thanks peeps...
-
I know you're looking for wireless - buy once, cry once. (BOCO)
I work with a band who bring a wired system - guitarist.vocal, lead guitarist/vocal, drummer/vocal are on a wired system - and some wedges for the bass player and the cello player.
It's a whole lot cheaper - and can be more flexible for more bands (less tx/rx) .
It may be something you may wish to consider - same effect.
Just to keep your mind open a bit...
frank
-
I know you're looking for wireless - buy once, cry once. (BOCO)
I work with a band who bring a wired system - guitarist.vocal, lead guitarist/vocal, drummer/vocal are on a wired system - and some wedges for the bass player and the cello player.
It's a whole lot cheaper - and can be more flexible for more bands (less tx/rx) .
It may be something you may wish to consider - same effect.
Just to keep your mind open a bit...
frank
Good point and very practical...thing is that if the musicians are already 'wireless' with their instruments, not sure they'd want to be 'tethered' again....not a problem with the drummer of course who is already 'tethered'.
This particular band is only a 4 piece and whilst playing, the singer, guitar player and bass player love to come out into the audience to interact. It's part of what they do......
I was thinking maybe I could provide the receiver and let them each buy their individual iems......is that an option maybe or is it impractical?
-
That's common, because people often go with molded IEMs which are only for them anyway.
Check out http://www.rockonaudio.com/
I see there stuff come through the club occasionally - it's a cool solution for members who already have a cable running to their guitar. It puts a headphone amplifier on the floor, and runs the IEM cable snaked alongside the guitar cable going to the players body. Not for everyone of course, but in the right situation looks pretty excellent. Never used them myself, just patch to them for touring acts
EDIT: I missed that you said your musicians were already wireless, my mistake.
-
Good point and very practical...thing is that if the musicians are already 'wireless' with their instruments, not sure they'd want to be 'tethered' again....not a problem with the drummer of course who is already 'tethered'.
This particular band is only a 4 piece and whilst playing, the singer, guitar player and bass player love to come out into the audience to interact. It's part of what they do......
I was thinking maybe I could provide the receiver and let them each buy their individual iems......is that an option maybe or is it impractical?
First, Debbie, I am not an expert in IEM by any means. I've run the one band with wired IEM, and once a radio IEM. That said, I'll still spout my nonsense :P
Of course, with the band on the roam, wired is out of the question.
If you buy the transmitter, the receiver has to match - I'm sure you figured that already. Splitting the cost of tx to you and rx to them splits the system for anything else you want to do.
The in-ear molded part is r-e-l-a-t-i-v-e-l-y inexpensive in comparison to the tx/rx piece.
I'd guess the set would come with some generic earpieces for another band.
[/size]You said 80% of your business is with this band - maybe a cost split would be ok if you don't need/want them for other gigs, or rent them back from the museos.
[/size]frank
[/size]
[/size]
-
First, Debbie, I am not an expert in IEM by any means. I've run the one band with wired IEM, and once a radio IEM. That said, I'll still spout my nonsense :P
Of course, with the band on the roam, wired is out of the question.
If you buy the transmitter, the receiver has to match - I'm sure you figured that already. Splitting the cost of tx to you and rx to them splits the system for anything else you want to do.
The in-ear molded part is r-e-l-a-t-i-v-e-l-y inexpensive in comparison to the tx/rx piece.
I'd guess the set would come with some generic earpieces for another band.
[/size]You said 80% of your business is with this band - maybe a cost split would be ok if you don't need/want them for other gigs, or rent them back from the museos.
[/size]frank
[/size]
[/size]
If the band members invested in any part of the system, of course I would not consider using that part of it for anyone else.
However, I thought - and this is I think where I have it all wrong - that I could 'piece part' together a system to enable the musicians to own their individual receivers/ phones and for me to be able to use perhaps generic 'lesser' options for other bands with me owning a decent quality transmitter. I thought it would all work together once frequencies were dialled in - no???...it's not the case is it??? oh poop....
-
So.....what if I ask the question "What systems are you guys using".....maybe I can re-think and perhaps get the money together for a complete system ...ouch....
-
If the band members invested in any part of the system, of course I would not consider using that part of it for anyone else.
However, I thought - and this is I think where I have it all wrong - that I could 'piece part' together a system to enable the musicians to own their individual receivers/ phones and for me to be able to use perhaps generic 'lesser' options for other bands with me owning a decent quality transmitter. I thought it would all work together once frequencies were dialled in - no???...it's not the case is it??? oh poop....
I am aware that wireless mics - tx and rx must be matched - I believe in all situations (need verification or correction here). It's not just about frequencies, though if those frequencies are used by something else, there will be interference - mostly dropouts vs. crosstalk.
So I'm pretty sure it's "oh poop..." (of course, it could poop on me instead - I'm far from an expert and I hope someone here will confirm or correct my babbling)
frank
-
I just went web surfing.
So, I'm thinking this : The Sennheiser EW300/2 seems to be the minimum worth investing in and a little better than the Shure entry level. Of course there are far more expensive systems that are probably much better quality but as my first intro to the world of iems, this might just work.
Please correct me if I have it wrong.
I can give the guitar player -who is very specific with his requirements- his own mix. I can give the singer -who again is very specific with her needs - her own mix. Then I could purchase an extra receiver for the bass player who is far easier to please and connect him to one of the other mixes. Drummer is wired already.
How does that sound ??
Keeps things affordable and less chance of frequency 'fights' ....
Remember, this will be a first for me with an iem system so if I get decent results, I might be tempted to go bigger and better down the road...
-
Debbie,
People are turned off from IEM experiences for a few main reasons, in my book:
1a. Poor-fitting Earphones - they must have a proper seal, or they will sound thin and lifeless, and will allow outside noise in. This can also magnify the occlusion effect (outside sounds are muffled, but you hear the low end of your own voice very well, footfalls are heard "inside your head", etc.
1b. Poor-sounding Earphones - don't use stock earbuds you got with your computer or music player...buy the right tool for the job.
2. Lack of localization/Separation from the rest of the band/audience - use of audience mics (aimed towards the crowd, while not picking up the main PA system wash) helps immensely; using stereo and not dual-mono setups for monitoring helps with spatial details. Judicious use of reverb for each mix helps, too.
Oh, and ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS ensure each IEM mx has some form of limiting on it. When someone drops/whacks a mic or unplugs a guitar without you muting the channel, it's not a big deal on wedges...but it feels like YOU were what got whacked with the mic when you use IEMs.
It's a very personal thing, and the end users MUST be comfortable with their choices as individuals AND a group. Can't throw off that groove...
-
I just went web surfing.
So, I'm thinking this : The Sennheiser EW300/2 seems to be the minimum worth investing in and a little better than the Shure entry level. Of course there are far more expensive systems that are probably much better quality but as my first intro to the world of iems, this might just work.
Please correct me if I have it wrong.
I can give the guitar player -who is very specific with his requirements- his own mix. I can give the singer -who again is very specific with her needs - her own mix. Then I could purchase an extra receiver for the bass player who is far easier to please and connect him to one of the other mixes. Drummer is wired already.
How does that sound ??
Keeps things affordable and less chance of frequency 'fights' ....
Remember, this will be a first for me with an iem system so if I get decent results, I might be tempted to go bigger and better down the road...
Yes - that looks like it should work. One transmitter can feed multiple receivers the same mix.
This two-channel (stereo) transmitter should be able to send two different mono signals. A third receiver could be set to receive either or both mixes (in theory)
frank
-
Debbie,
People are turned off from IEM experiences for a few main reasons, in my book:
1a. Poor-fitting Earphones - they must have a proper seal, or they will sound thin and lifeless, and will allow outside noise in. This can also magnify the occlusion effect (outside sounds are muffled, but you hear the low end of your own voice very well, footfalls are heard "inside your head", etc.
1b. Poor-sounding Earphones - don't use stock earbuds you got with your computer or music player...buy the right tool for the job.
2. Lack of localization/Separation from the rest of the band/audience - use of audience mics (aimed towards the crowd, while not picking up the main PA system wash) helps immensely; using stereo and not dual-mono setups for monitoring helps with spatial details. Judicious use of reverb for each mix helps, too.
Oh, and ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS ensure each IEM mx has some form of limiting on it. When someone drops/whacks a mic or unplugs a guitar without you muting the channel, it's not a big deal on wedges...but it feels like YOU were what got whacked with the mic when you use IEMs.
It's a very personal thing, and the end users MUST be comfortable with their choices as individuals AND a group. Can't throw off that groove...
great points !!
The last thing I want to do is to cause the musicians to be put off the whole concept when they are just at the point where they are interested in iem. So although I might not be spending a fortune on the latest and greatest, I will certainly take heed of your comments and do the very best I can to make the situation work as well as I can.
I was a singer for many many years and I must admit, I wouldn't trust my ears to anyone or anything unless I had some security built in (limiter).
I love the idea of setting up a mic for the audience. This band gets good audience feedback and they thrive on it. Case in point -on the rare occasion when the audience numbers have not been good due to weather or similar, the band does not play well at all in my opinion. They need to hear and 'feel' the crowd response to be at their best and I must admit I was a little worried about the whole 'separation' feeling caused by using iems.
-
great points !!
The last thing I want to do is to cause the musicians to be put off the whole concept when they are just at the point where they are interested in iem. So although I might not be spending a fortune on the latest and greatest, I will certainly take heed of your comments and do the very best I can to make the situation work as well as I can.
I was a singer for many many years and I must admit, I wouldn't trust my ears to anyone or anything unless I had some security built in (limiter).
I love the idea of setting up a mic for the audience. This band gets good audience feedback and they thrive on it. Case in point -on the rare occasion when the audience numbers have not been good due to weather or similar, the band does not play well at all in my opinion. They need to hear and 'feel' the crowd response to be at their best and I must admit I was a little worried about the whole 'separation' feeling caused by using iems.
One other point: With their ears "plugged" band member to band member communication (calling an audible) becomes a new problem. I've read something on here recently that was supposed to be a solution.
-
Yes - that looks like it should work. One transmitter can feed multiple receivers the same mix.
This two-channel (stereo) transmitter should be able to send two different mono signals. A third receiver could be set to receive either or both mixes (in theory)
frank
So the only difference between the EW300 and the EW300-2 is that the latter comes with an extra receiver but is the same stereo (or 2 channel mono) transmitter ?
-
So the only difference between the EW300 and the EW300-2 is that the latter comes with an extra receiver but is the same stereo (or 2 channel mono) transmitter ?
Looks like the transmitter is the same but one has 1 receiver, the other 2 receivers.
Before jumping off the bridge, you may want someone who actually knows something to weigh in. :-\
-
Debbie, there have been a lot of discussions on IEMS here over the past 2 years. It's probably worth spending a few evenings digging through them. Jordan already mentioned many of the salient points. Another frequent comment is that it doesn't work well for the musicians unless the mix is stereo. So 5 independent IEM mixes now requires 10 mono mix busses instead of 5 mono wedges
I only work with one band that uses IEMs. They bring their own monitor rig which is really convenient for me :) . Everyone is on IEMs except the guitar player who bought one but refuses to use it.
I upgraded all my monitors last year. I thought very hard about IEMs, which would have been a similar price with upgraded ear buds, and a lot easier to pack, but it didn't really make sense for me because I work with different bands every week, do a lot of festivals, the bands mostly will have never used IEMs, and there are hygiene issues to consider.
If you have one main band and they want to go to IEMs, thats great, but whether other bands you may work with would accept the IEMS using generic ear buds, well, personally I felt that was a stretch for me to make an investment of around $1,300 per musician. And what about when I have 7 or 10 musicians on stage and no monitors,....
I decided to buy nice monitors knowing that none of my clients would actually expect IEMs, and some of them would freak out the first time they wore them, especially if I didn't deliver really high quality ear buds that fit their random sized ears,...
That was my thought process: the IEM investment didn't make sense for me.
5 years from now, maybe IEMs will be expected by everyone at every level.
-
Debbie, there have been a lot of discussions on IEMS here over the past 2 years. It's probably worth spending a few evenings digging through them. Jordan already mentioned many of the salient points. Another frequent comment is that it doesn't work well for the musicians unless the mix is stereo. So 5 independent IEM mixes now requires 10 mono mix busses instead of 5 mono wedges
I only work with one band that uses IEMs. They bring their own monitor rig which is really convenient for me :) . Everyone is on IEMs except the guitar player who bought one but refuses to use it.
I upgraded all my monitors last year. I thought very hard about IEMs, which would have been a similar price with upgraded ear buds, and a lot easier to pack, but it didn't really make sense for me because I work with different bands every week, do a lot of festivals, the bands mostly will have never used IEMs, and there are hygiene issues to consider.
If you have one main band and they want to go to IEMs, thats great, but whether other bands you may work with would accept the IEMS using generic ear buds, well, personally I felt that was a stretch for me to make an investment of around $1,300 per musician. And what about when I have 7 or 10 musicians on stage and no monitors,....
I decided to buy nice monitors knowing that none of my clients would actually expect IEMs, and some of them would freak out the first time they wore them, especially if I didn't deliver really high quality ear buds that fit their random sized ears,...
That was my thought process: the IEM investment didn't make sense for me.
5 years from now, maybe IEMs will be expected by everyone at every level.
Fair comments and good to know you went through the same process.
Maybe I need to hold off and inform the band members what you have all pointed out to me - that it is not quite as easy a transition as they think it might be but also a costly and somewhat (for me) impractical move at the moment.
I agree that probably down the road, iems will be the norm and the expected provision made by sound guys but till then I may just stick with what I have.
With the pending 600 mhz bandwidth changes, it might be worth waiting to see what happens there too.
I will continue to research simply because I'd really like to learn more and then be prepared when and if I take the plunge!!
-
Fair comments and good to know you went through the same process.
Maybe I need to hold off and inform the band members what you have all pointed out to me - that it is not quite as easy a transition as they think it might be but also a costly and somewhat (for me) impractical move at the moment.
I agree that probably down the road, iems will be the norm and the expected provision made by sound guys but till then I may just stick with what I have.
With the pending 600 mhz bandwidth changes, it might be worth waiting to see what happens there too.
I will continue to research simply because I'd really like to learn more and then be prepared when and if I take the plunge!!
To complete full circle - if you can get the musicians to stay put for a while, maybe you could get the band to evaluate wired in-ears. Good way to learn about IEM for the band and you - what works, what doesn't. The compromise would be tethering the band - at least for a while.
-
Debbie, there have been a lot of discussions on IEMS here over the past 2 years. It's probably worth spending a few evenings digging through them. Jordan already mentioned many of the salient points. Another frequent comment is that it doesn't work well for the musicians unless the mix is stereo. So 5 independent IEM mixes now requires 10 mono mix busses instead of 5 mono wedges
Mark - I have not sorted out "the need" for stereo mix. Naive question: What would be in each channel?
frank
-
I'll often pan nearly everything except someone's vocal a bit in one way or another in stereo IEMs, leaving the "phantom center" clear for it. Guitars, keys, other vocals, etc, all will get panned out a bit either arbitrarily or based on real stage positions. I find it much more difficult to have a full mix in mono IEMs while retaining strong vocal intelligibility.
-
Mark - I have not sorted out "the need" for stereo mix. Naive question: What would be in each channel?
frank
I don't have much experience with IEMs, just a few shows with a band that runs mono IEMS.
I was just sharing a repeated claim from multiple people that stereo was a must for their artists. I don't remember if the claim was in the lounge or classic forum. In the back of my mind I questioned the claim, but there are some really experienced and helpful people around here so I accept it as an issue to consider.
I suspect stereo IEMs fits alongside the need for ambient audience and stage mics, additional cues to help the performers 'feel like they are not wearing IEMs' - 3D spatial cues are a reality on stage and stereo IEMS are already compressing that down to 2D.
That's my speculation of why stereo is preferred.
-
Debbie,
Here are a couple of my quick thoughts on the matter; it is a deep subject but these are some thing I have learned in the last couple of years. These thoughts are not in an order, just stuff that I think is useful to point out.
Background- I mix for several bands who use IEMs, or a combo of IEMs and wedges for different performers, or even both. Additionally, my own band of 14 people is completely on IEMs- I have played in the neighborhood of 150 gigs using this rig, as the guitarist.
1. I will echo that fit matters. A good seal is important to make the best of them. Complete isolation works best.
2. I have not had a band expect that I provide them yet; I just got a rider this week for the first band this summer requiring one mix of IEMs however (This is probably more common for bigger companies than me though). I happily provide mixes for some band who bring their own IEM gear though, and have rented them to bands who have their own buds before. Buds break easily, make the players own them if you have a choice.
3. Of the venues we play (some regional, some national), only one club has had IEMs that bands could use if they provided their own buds; this was the Belly Up in Aspen, a really nice place with a high production value. This was great, as we couldn't fly our gear there.
4. Personally I feel that stereo is not a big deal at all. No one my band has their ears in stereo, or has ever once mentioned it being an issue. Localizing is not a big deal at all, IMO, even with 14 people on stage- I know where people are standing, I know the music, my brain makes the connection without skipping a beat. I am excited to try it down the road, but it is not make it or break it. We use a crest mixer with 12 mixes, and a couple people even share a mix without a problem.
4. Isolation is a bigger deal, but not huge for me personally. We do not use audience mics, though I have thought about adding it if I had enough inputs. We can't hear them all that well, nor can we hear audibles well. We have found work arounds. Also, we have an input for talkback from FOH, that can be important.
5. They take some time to get used to; not everyone is going to like the experience (I have met horn players who have a hard time with them, though we have four horns using them). For this reason, I'm not sure I would recommend you buying them for using mostly with one band unless you know you can get some other rental income out of them. If the band doesn't like them and you can't otherwise rent them in your market, you will be out some serious coin.
6. Mixing a band that is on all IEMs has been great in my experience, especially when they are in charge of their mixes. Stage volume is better, FOH sounds way better, feedback is almost non-existent. Stages look way better, and there is a lot more room for the performers. Win win win win.
7. If you go down this road, make it both easy and foolproof to set up for yourself.
I'm sure there is much more, I'll add stuff when it comes to me.
Cheers,
Nils
-
I am finding everyone's comments to be very helpful indeed. Sharing personal experience and the challenges that come with that and how to overcome them is priceless advice.
I really appreciate all the input here.
I may hold off for now as I stated earlier - but with the experience shared here regarding using mono instead of stereo - this gives me a bit more confidence to go ahead and invest in the one stereo unit and run it as 2 mono channel as was my first thought . If this does not work well, then of course a rethink would be necessary and at that point I can reconsider my investment.
But till I have discussed everything with the band and really done my research I'll hold off for now.
-
I am finding everyone's comments to be very helpful indeed. Sharing personal experience and the challenges that come with that and how to overcome them is priceless advice.
I really appreciate all the input here.
I may hold off for now as I stated earlier - but with the experience shared here regarding using mono instead of stereo - this gives me a bit more confidence to go ahead and invest in the one stereo unit and run it as 2 mono channel as was my first thought . If this does not work well, then of course a rethink would be necessary and at that point I can reconsider my investment.
But till I have discussed everything with the band and really done my research I'll hold off for now.
Perhaps you can rent a stereo unit for a few weeks and try the 2 channel mono thing for a coupe gigs and rehearsals? It will give both you and the band some experience, and your own perceptions of the need for quality sealing ear buds, stereo or mono, all the other potential issues people have shared....
-
Two channel mono, are you using a custom cable to connect left channel to stereo headphones. A second custom cable for the right side only. or would you be thinking about leaving the right or left side out.
-
Debbie,
as someone who has worked both sides of the stage (tho I do NOT consider myself an expert by any means) my take on IEM ownership - that includes buds and delivery method (be that wired or wireless) - is that it should be OWNED by the band. It's THEIR hearing. To be sure, there's nothing wrong with you having/providing the FEEDS to those mixes, but (if it were me) I'd not own it. I've been thru this with 3 bands now.. one ended up not going IEM as they couldn't adjust. The 2nd went mixed IEM/wedges, and the 3rd is in transition. None of them went with STEREO mixes. I have found that you always need more ME in the mix, but unless [like at church] there are multiple guitars, acoustics, keys, etc. MONO works fine for the average band. Plus it tends to keeps costs lower.
I'm trying to convince the 3rd band (they mix from stage and play about 40% House provided system gigs) to buy a mixer that can run 5 IEM mixes (mono) AND FOH. The 5 IEM xmitters will sit in the the rack hooked up to AUX feeds from the mixer. For house gigs, they run the snake splitter into the mixer. When it's their PA, they hook up their own feeds. They bring the mixer/xmitters to every gig and have the same IEM mix whether FOH is provided or not.
If you decide to invest, I would agree with other posters about the buy once, cry once aspect. However, paying $1200 for EW300 or PSM1000 systems does not necessarily = better. It's often simply more features as the parts are not complicated or expensive and there ARE xmitter/receiver units out there for $75 that work!! RELIABILITY seems to be the big factor.
FWIW - after much research, I went with the Carvin EM900 system (gazillions of channels and separation) and my own buds (1964 Ears Quads) when playing bass and have never had an issues with the unit.
You will need to do a ton of research before deciding.. and the salient points about isolation with custom molds, ambient mics being needed, etc are all valid in my experience.
There's some interesting threads on going IEM (from musicians perspectives) below:
http://forum.fractalaudio.com/lounge/60484-best-custom-iems-live-use.html
http://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=10263.0
-
Mark - I have not sorted out "the need" for stereo mix. Naive question: What would be in each channel?
frank
By panning inputs to there relative position on the stage, the mix is less confusing to people who see someone off to their left but hear it in the middle.
You also have a pretty small dynamic window to mix in with rf ears. Stereo helps you find a spot for everything. A little panning goes a long way.
-
By panning inputs to there relative position on the stage, the mix is less confusing to people who see someone off to their left but hear it in the middle.
You also have a pretty small dynamic window to mix in with rf ears. Stereo helps you find a spot for everything. A little panning goes a long way.
I have heard that stated quite a bit, but as someone who is used to hearing a mono FOH mix [from FOH], I have yet to have a problem with a MONO IEM mix on stage.. even with multiple guitars on stage. If they sound so close to each other [alike] that they cannot be picked out in the mix (and are not guest players) then IMHO, they need to rework their tones.. YMMV.
I'm sure it works fine for many, but I have never viewed it as a "must have".. tho I'm sure the top-tier pros would want it.
-
Mark, Samuel, John
Thanks for the insight into reasoning behind stereo. Did a bunch of reading last night, and you summarized it better than four hours of reading!
Thanks!
frank
-
Two channel mono, are you using a custom cable to connect left channel to stereo headphones. A second custom cable for the right side only. or would you be thinking about leaving the right or left side out.
Not sure Jerome. I'd have to experiment a bit. I would think feeding mono to both sides would be more acceptable to a player and I think I have enough adapters and cables for that - somewhere in the dark depths of my cases I have just about every configuration of adaptor ever made. It's an obsession of mine he he !
I did read though that if using mono to one side NEVER leave the other side hanging- keep it in the ear. Due to being able to hear stage volume, it causes the user to turn up the signal so high that it can cause damage to the ear.
I thought that was some good advice....
-
Not sure Jerome. I'd have to experiment a bit. I would think feeding mono to both sides would be more acceptable to a player and I think I have enough adapters and cables for that - somewhere in the dark depths of my cases I have just about every configuration of adaptor ever made. It's an obsession of mine he he !
Check the manuals for any gear you consider investing in - I'd hope that the receiver should be able to be configured to deliver the mono input to both ears without resorting to external adapters.
HTH,
David.
-
Check the manuals for any gear you consider investing in - I'd hope that the receiver should be able to be configured to deliver the mono input to both ears without resorting to external adapters.
HTH,
David.
David, most of the standard units (EW, PSM, AT, etc) I have worked with do that.. L or R input on xmitter assumes mono, which is split to both ears on the receiver side. So a [mono] AUX1 feed to an xmitter results in same in each ear.
-
Make an emergency cheat sheet for yourself on doing common tasks, because... for me.... always *just enough* time lapses by and something, some how, despite lock outs, etc... gets changed... and one of the girls is all "my in ears aren't working" and hands me a sweaty receiver. I am staring at this thing suddenly feeling like my parents trying to program a VCR.
If any of your musicians are using cheapo universal ear buds, then... keep a set similar at the mix position... and try not to always reach for your comfy nice quality headphones when working on their crappy in ear mix. skull candy buds have a sound of their own.
-
Debbie -- I use two different IEM systems.
My church has the Sennheiser system (we also use Sennheiser wireless mics) run in mono. Multiple receivers from one transmitter. Some of the praise team vocalists don't bother with them, just listen to the wash from the mains. No wedges on stage, one tiny amp pointed sideways, electronic drums -- stage is whisper quiet.
The other is an AT M series system I use with a cover/bar band. Two female singers, they explicitly refused anything in the IEM except their vocals. (Actually they get a lot of wash in the vocal mics.) I set the receivers in "personal mix" and patched directly from the mic outputs to the IEM xmitter as a split. All the pieces go in a separate 6U box, so they have a completely self-contained mic/IEM wireless pack for gigs with house PA.
Anyway, one vocal goes to left channel, one to right channel in the xmitter. The personal mode is mono, but allows separate levels for the two input channels in each receiver -- so each girl can dial up "more me" as the need it to stay in tune with each other.
This won't work for everyone, and took some experimenting to find what worked for us. We have four other musicians -- lead guitar, bass, drums, and guitar/keys/harmonica/mandolin/whatever. They get three mixes in wedges with some vocals as well.
Of the two systems -- I would prefer the Sennheiser. It does everything the AT does, plus more info on the display and (probably) a more robust and reliable build. The AT has been hit with occasional interference, but since it travels a lot that's not a surprise.
We have not had issues with range on either system, max distance has been about 100 feet straight line from xmitter to receiver.
-
Lots has been said above that is very good advice, moving to In Ear monitors is not as easy as channging from wired to wireless mics, it's a progression.
I mix with in ears very frequently and love it when I mix them, mostly.
As said above, there are a few very important things to consider. Fit & QUALITY of the in ear monitors themselves is HUGE! Almost guaranteed if you provide the tx & rx someone in the band will try to use a cheap pair of ear buds and not enjoy their new experience. Bass players and drummers will certainly benefit from the higher cost multiple tunes buds to get the low frequency response they'll need to feel comfortable with their in ears. Shure SE215's are just fine for most vocalists etc... however a slight jump up to the 315's, still single driver, and the music becomes more "lively". Move to the 425's and now you're getting some great sound with very respectable low frequency response. Of course you went from $99 ear buds to $300 but it's worth it. Or you can go for JL Audio's 16 driver in ear for @ $1500 I believe, LOL
The next is the dynamix range of the wireless units themselves. Some of the cheaper units don't have great dynamic range and cut off or "squish" the signal causing it to be lesser quality. For example, the Shure PSM 200's are decent HOWEVER, they don't have the dynamic range of the higher Shure models and they also have a lot more "noise" in the system as well. Are they bad, nope, just not as good sounding as the PSM 600's, PSM 700's etc.... That being said, you can pick a used PSM 200 system up for @ $300 and it'll probably work fine for you. BE ADVISED, they are MONO only...
Mono vs stereo: I prefer stereo, if I can, because the sound imaging is much clearer with a bit of panning. Just like stereo FOH is a bit cleaner and more dynamic, so goes the same for in ears. Pan a bit and you, as said above, make room for a whole lot of sound in the mix. The other benefit to stereo units, if you have the sends available, is you can actually do 4 mono mixes with 2 stereo units which reduces your rack spaces, your investment and your frequencies in use.
Dynamics: Just like monitors you'll still need some good dynamics such as limiting and eq to get the best possible result. Wedges get rung out for feedback but in ears get eq'd for flavor...
Frequency coordination is yet another concern and who knows how that's going to go down next time, UGH...
When IEM's first hit the market many hated due to their isolating nature. All the sudden people felt stranded on an island even though their stage was jam packed. So then came the idea of adding a mic or two at FOH or on the downstage lip to get more "ambiance" which helped a bit. Then companies came out with in ear processing such as DBX's IEM units to help create a better listening experience but they add cost and rack spaces.
The next resolution, and in my opinion was the best, was adding an ambient mic to the receiver bodypacks so the performer could dial in how much "stage noise" they wanted. That helped create a better listening and localization experience. None of our Shure's have it and it seems mostly it's really all relegated to the personal mixers such as Avioms, Roland M48's etc...
If your band plays in many "live" rooms with lots of reflections, they'll undoubtedly struggle with the isolation factor in the beginning. If you've never used good isolating ear units, when you put them in it's like you enter a vacuum and you're all alone, very different feeling...
The other thing to consider also is now your "monitoring" of the monitor mix is going to be best suited by a great set of in ear buds as well. My first experience with wireless in ears tought me that... I had a singer hearing a whistle in her ears but I could never hear it with the headphones I was using. I went a bought my Shure E3's and BAM, there it was. So be sure to use something with similar characteristics and quality as what your performers are using to give you the best control.
Now for the final piece, unless you think you can actually make more $$ with this and other bands by supplying the wireless units, not the in ear units themselves, I'd leave the ownership up to the band themselves. You can supply all the connections necessary but I'd let them buy it themselves. Just my 2 cents.
Hope that helps.
-
Hi Debbie,
Just another point on the stereo vs. mono IEM issue;
When dealing with seasoned veteran studio and touring musicians, each player generally wants his or her own instrument or vocal on top of their mix, and doesn't usually care to hear much mix-dictated EQ or compression on their own instrument. This presents a conundrum, in that all channels become optimized as the "front and center" channel. It becomes impossible to create a good mono mix where each channel is EQ'd to make them all fit together in a way that allows the listener to easily pick out each instrument. When the mix is stereo, you can use panning to mitigate this, to some degree.
Another way to deal with this problem, when you have enough channels of a digital monitor console at your disposal, is to create duplicate channels of instrument and/or vocal inputs. Process one of them as you deem appropriate for a good mix, and use the other with minimal processing to feed the mix of the person playing the thing.
-
I am arranging a meeting with the band members to sit down and talk about this subject. At this point, I think it is imperative to share with them everything that has been discussed here. Great comments guys - really helpful and far more to consider than I could have even imagined..... :)
-
I am arranging a meeting with the band members to sit down and talk about this subject. At this point, I think it is imperative to share with them everything that has been discussed here. Great comments guys - really helpful and far more to consider than I could have even imagined..... :)
Debbie,
We are a 9-member band, and we have our LS9-32 sending out 6 stereo mixes: One each for the three lead vocalists, one for me (bandleader/keyboardist/recording feed,) one for the horns, and one for the rhythm section. It's worked out well for us. Letting everyone work out their own IEM monitor mix has been very good. We use Air Fader clients to let the members control their own IEM mixes.
The horn players and the rhythm section have to agree on how their respective mixes should be handled, but that's not been a problem. We used to have a stereo pair of mics for ambient input, but the members dispensed with that after they got used to having IEM's. Although many who have commented on this thread don't mind working in "living mono" the stereo mixes we use have made everything easier for us - we feel that spatial location is important to relating to the monitor mix with IEM's, and the band is panned to reflect a soundstage that represents the physical location of the band members. Yes they burn auxes, but we have enough to have two concurrent effects on FOH and in the IEM's after the stereo mixes are sent, so that's been cool.
I was helped by many on this forum when I was implementing our system... what a great resource this place is!
Best regards,
Bob Charest
-
My take on IEMs from a BE perspective: I enjoy mixing bands that use IEMs because no/little stage volume usually means much better FOH sound. It's even better when they run their monitor mixes. I also think IEM gear should be the band's responsibility, especially the buds, but keep in mind that I don't do this for a living. Pro musician friends have always recommended getting molds as they isolate far better and are more comfortable than universal IEMs.
My take on IEMs from a drummer perspective: I love using them because 1) I can hear the instruments much better; 2) I can keep the level down, which protects my ears; and, 3) less gear to haul in/out. My band is VERY slowly going to IEMs. Since we're using aux channels from a Mackie DL1608, my caution to them: No messing with guitar/bass amp gains during the show because they affect the aux levels. For some reason the bass player keeps turning up over the course of the gig, which in turn causes the lead to turn up, and then the rhythm G turns up. I told them I was non-negotiable when it comes to protecting my ears; that it was a no-go if they didn't stop the volume wars. I also remind them to be mindful when disconnecting guitars to avoid LOUD pops.
As for mono or stereo ... it has never been a concern for me. I did a little panning when using the Behringer monitor system, but tend to keep everything centered. I can see the allure of stereo and panning instruments, but just don't find it necessary. What's more important to me is the level of the instruments. Frankly, I never came across anyone who complained about the sound stage when using a wedge monitor.
By the way, I use the entry level Shure SE215. I didn't want to spend too much in the beginning since I didn't know what to expect. Happy enough with the sound that I haven't thought too seriously about upgrading. I heard from owners of higher end Shure models who didn't think the cost justified the slight sound improvement over the SE215. I heard good things about Westone and 1964 Ears, so may look into them.
-
I did it. I purchased 2 Sennheiser EW300 2 G3's.
This is why:
Hubby decided he wanted to go that route in the band he plays in and we figured it made the investment more cost effective.
So.......I pulled the trigger on one system yesterday morning. I got it brand new with 2 receivers - for $975 out the door. Also, Sennheiser are offering $100 on the system right now (started march 1st). Brings the total to $875......pretty good right? System sells at $1300.
I was feeling quite proud of myself getting it at that price.
Then I needed to find another receiver to provide mixes for 3 people in mono. The receivers are $500 each which is crazy considering what I spent on 2 receivers, transmitter, the whole caboodle. One complete system with 2 receivers works out at only $375 more than 1 receiver ( no rebate on receiver alone).
So, I went ahead and got another complete system at the same price ($975- minus $100 rebate), no limit to the amount of rebates so bottom line....2 complete brand new systems all for $1750.
I am selling a few things on CL to help pay for it and I can sell a couple of floor monitors as I have 7 total.
So now the fun starts and I have a new learning curve to overcome. You have all armed me with plenty of information so I have a good start I think. For the main band I intend to use one transmitter in stereo and the other as 2 mono feeds for 3 players - drummer already wired with his own system. The players are providing their own headsets - I have stressed the importance of getting good quality phones and custom buds. The rest is down to them. I hope I have no issues with RF battles, etc.
Once I have it all down, I am looking forward to a feedback free life. Not to mention a neater looking stage, less wires on stage, less spill beer into and much less to transport etc. I work hard to eliminate feedback and succeed most of the time but it would be nice to not have to think about it.
What do you guys think???
-
Check out the Engineer mode. If you have a spare reciever you can sync everyone's frequency and just hit the up/down button to go between them. That way you can hear what they are hearing (if you have the same type of buds/molds of course).
-
Congrats, Debbie. Sounds like you made some good decisions on the systems and the extra receiver (well... extra system).
Lots to learn, but it will be easier with actual hardware in your hot little hands versus the theoretical.
Keep us posted.
frank
-
A member has pointed out that the rebate form states 'Internet Auction Site purchases excluded'. I purchased through ebay from an authorized dealer..
However, I spoke to someone in the rebate dept who said as long as the retailer is an Authorized dealer, it will be valid and the store has confirmed. I hope I get the rebate.
I read something a long time ago that according to law, the company is not obligated to refund the money (which doesn't seem fair) under any circumstances anyway it is up to the companies discretion. If I don't qualify, I got a good deal on both systems so it will still be a satisfactory result.... (I hope I get it though)....
-
I read something a long time ago that according to law, the company is not obligated to refund the money (which doesn't seem fair) under any circumstances anyway it is up to the companies discretion. If I don't qualify, I got a good deal on both systems so it will still be a satisfactory result.... (I hope I get it though)....
Debbie, in my experience if the rebate is legitimate and thru an authorized dealer ( internet or not) then you generally get it back. If not, your recourse is to report the dealer to the OEM (Senn) and it may cause that dealer issues at authorization review/renewal time.
-
Debbie, in my experience if the rebate is legitimate and thru an authorized dealer ( internet or not) then you generally get it back. If not, your recourse is to report the dealer to the OEM (Senn) and it may cause that dealer issues at authorization review/renewal time.
Good to know Steve ..thanks. I'll definitely fight the good fight if indeed it becomes necessary ;)
-
My iem's are getting delivered today.
I have a question. How could I incorporate a mixing console on stage to allow the musicians to adjust their own levels whilst keeping 4 separate mixes ? - direct outs?. Is it even something worth doing?
-
My iem's are getting delivered today.
I have a question. How could I incorporate a mixing console on stage to allow the musicians to adjust their own levels whilst keeping 4 separate mixes ? - direct outs?. Is it even something worth doing?
Certainly your Qu has an iPad interface, or iPhone?
-
To elaborate....
I will have 2 Senny EW300's running in mono able to service 4 players wirelessly
I will have 2 Behringer MA400 headphone amps able to service 2 players wired.
I have a small format mixer I could use on stage which would allow the musicians to be self sufficient in their control of mix. I am getting confused because it looks like there are couple different ways to get these 2 iem systems working. I just need to know the most efficient and flexible way.
If that means I can utilize the small mixer for more flexibility, I'd like to do that. However, if incorporating the mixer gives me no more flexibility or introduces noise, I accept that and I'll just use the Senn packs and headphone amps as is.
-
Certainly your Qu has an iPad interface, or iPhone?
Yes, I use the ipad to remotely mix.
-
Yes, I use the ipad to remotely mix.
I think Mark's question was a little different - for example, with the Presonus I can have an IPad doing all mixing, but the interface also allows performers hook into the mixer with IPhones )or IPads) to control their own mix - part of the presonus package. The interface has permission controls so as to keep the FOH mix firmly in your hands. Other folks mix FOH on one ipad, and monitors by another person on a separate IPad.
Mark was asking whether the QU also had that functionality.
As far as I've read, the QU currently only supports one Ipad period.
-
I think Mark's question was a little different - for example, with the Presonus I can have an IPad doing all mixing, but the interface also allows performers hook into the mixer with IPhones )or IPads) to control their own mix - part of the presonus package. The interface has permission controls so as to keep the FOH mix firmly in your hands. Other folks mix FOH on one ipad, and monitors by another person on a separate IPad.
Mark was asking whether the QU also had that functionality.
As far as I've read, the QU currently only supports one Ipad period.
Sorry....I responded quickly without even thinking ....... I understand.
Yes, unfortunately the QU16 does NOT support anymore than the one iPad. However, in all fairness, even if it did, I couldn't see the band members springing for iPads (don't believe they already own any) . They are - how should I put this??? -VERY budget conscious.....
-
Sorry....I responded quickly without even thinking ....... I understand.
Yes, unfortunately the QU16 does NOT support anymore than the one iPad. However, in all fairness, even if it did, I couldn't see the band members springing for iPads (don't believe they already own any) . They are - how should I put this??? -VERY budget conscious.....
Uhhh... musicians are like artists - starving - generally don't have two nickles to rub together. I'll doubt you'll find one without a smartphone - and if that happens to be Apple, well, they're all set for Presonus world.
-
Uhhh... musicians are like artists - starving - generally don't have two nickles to rub together. I'll doubt you'll find one without a smartphone - and if that happens to be Apple, well, they're all set for Presonus world.
He he - yeah that's true, I am sure they have i somethings. .....well no ipad/iphone solution for me then !......Back to hardware options I suppose.
-
I think Mark's question was a little different - for example, with the Presonus I can have an IPad doing all mixing, but the interface also allows performers hook into the mixer with IPhones )or IPads) to control their own mix - part of the presonus package. The interface has permission controls so as to keep the FOH mix firmly in your hands. Other folks mix FOH on one ipad, and monitors by another person on a separate IPad.
Mark was asking whether the QU also had that functionality.
As far as I've read, the QU currently only supports one Ipad period.
Yep, that's what Mark was alluding to. If the Qu doesn't support multiple iPad/iphone connections to control monitor mixes, they probably will in a future update. This is a basic 'required feature' of entry level digital consoles in today's market.
-
Yep, that's what Mark was alluding to. If the Qu doesn't support multiple iPad/iphone connections to control monitor mixes, they probably will in a future update. This is a basic 'required feature' of entry level digital consoles in today's market.
I wasn't sure if this was capable with a firmware update but it did occur to me that it would be very good news if it was !!!
-
Ok, so I am very late to this party. Sigh...
Debbie, grats on the iem systems.
From way back in Feb, why can't the guitar player hear himself ? Earplugs? Even with loud wedges?
Where is his amp pointed? Is he a mutant with ears in his calfs?
/rant
I don't understand guitar amps on the floor aimed at the audience turned up so it drowns out everything else.
\end rant
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
-
Ok, so I am very late to this party. Sigh...
Debbie, grats on the iem systems.
From way back in Feb, why can't the guitar player hear himself ? Earplugs? Even with loud wedges?
Where is his amp pointed? Is he a mutant with ears in his calfs?
/rant
I don't understand guitar amps on the floor aimed at the audience turned up so it drowns out everything else.
\end rant
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
No..I agree 100%..The direction of his amp is definitely a BIG part of the problem.
I have absolutely no idea why suddenly he decided to use ear plugs. I have a feeling he took the advice of one of the sound guys who he used on one of the gigs I couldn't do for him. All it did was take a situation where his knees are deafened during his performance and causes him to turn up and make it worse.
I understand to a certain extent why the singer may have thought she needed to use them - she got worried about her hearing and doesn't know much about how to combat a poor sound on stage....although she never complains when I control the monitor sound.
Maybe the other sound guy used cheap nasty monitors and tried to overcome the crappy sound quality with volume and blasted the singers ears. Who knows?
BTW...LOVING the iems.....thanks
Got the transmitters installed in my old 12 u rack with my Furman, 2 stereo compressors (for limiting), patchbays and my new 24 channel snake which goes in the bottom ..
The new snake is only 25ft which is all I need when I can use the iPad to mix. I can leave my 100ft in the van. AND 1 rack replaces 4 wedges.. WIN.
-
Debbie,
Not that I'm trying to spend your money on "your band", but in the interest of sound control, you may think about investing in one or two of these.
http://www.standback.net/
Gotta keep those knees and ankles from going deaf!
You can use them on any of your jobs - folds down to almost nothing.
frank
-
Debbie,
Not that I'm trying to spend your money on "your band", but in the interest of sound control, you may think about investing in one or two of these.
http://www.standback.net/
Gotta keep those knees and ankles from going deaf!
You can use them on any of your jobs - folds down to almost nothing.
frank
Very cool idea and so lightweight - love it.
Might be worth the investment.
However, in this case, Mr. guitar player uses a separate amp on a 2x12 cab - not a combo. The amp would be unstable at any angle other than upright.
I have a nice 20x20x20 SKB box on wheels that I use for cables. Last gig I let the bass player use it as a stand for his combo - he has the same problem with volume. Maybe I could let the guitar player use my box and use one of the standback style stands for the bass player .....mmm
-
Very cool idea and so lightweight - love it.
Might be worth the investment.
However, in this case, Mr. guitar player uses a separate amp on a 2x12 cab - not a combo. The amp would be unstable at any angle other than upright.
I have a nice 20x20x20 SKB box on wheels that I use for cables. Last gig I let the bass player use it as a stand for his combo - he has the same problem with volume. Maybe I could let the guitar player use my box and use one of the standback style stands for the bass player .....mmm
A 2x12 shouldn't be too unstable to tilt back; my band's guitar player has a 2x12 Crate combo amp and we've tilted it back in a myriad of creative ways(folding chairs, guitar stands, direct boxes, etc...). You may have to put the amp head somewhere other than on top of the speaker.
-
Very cool idea and so lightweight - love it.
Might be worth the investment.
However, in this case, Mr. guitar player uses a separate amp on a 2x12 cab - not a combo. The amp would be unstable at any angle other than upright.
I have a nice 20x20x20 SKB box on wheels that I use for cables. Last gig I let the bass player use it as a stand for his combo - he has the same problem with volume. Maybe I could let the guitar player use my box and use one of the standback style stands for the bass player .....mmm
Yeah. I've had troubles with amp separates, and have not come up with a decent solution, either. Maybe a loading strap over the amp and under the speaker...
I have not had much success with bass speaker positioning - it takes quite a distance for the wave to develop, and the cab is basically omni at the lower frequencies anyway.
As an aside, I think that may contribute to many bass players having a poor balance of their bass between lowest note and highest note - the high notes can be heard close up, and therefore sound "right", while the lowest notes are basically flapping and resonating wild - can't hear them? Or maybe they just don't understand their instrument and amp.
Back to OP...
-
Yeah. I've had troubles with amp separates, and have not come up with a decent solution, either. Maybe a loading strap over the amp and under the speaker...
I have not had much success with bass speaker positioning - it takes quite a distance for the wave to develop, and the cab is basically omni at the lower frequencies anyway.
As an aside, I think that may contribute to many bass players having a poor balance of their bass between lowest note and highest note - the high notes can be heard close up, and therefore sound "right", while the lowest notes are basically flapping and resonating wild - can't hear them? Or maybe they just don't understand their instrument and amp.
Back to OP...
I am hoping that the iems will help this situation. I will be able to send more guitar and bass to the players phones which will hopefully get them to turn down.
I do fold back their instruments through the wedges but it becomes a bit of a noise when there is so much volume on stage.
Also, the singer complains about hearing too much guitar on the one side and too much bass on the other.
It is only a 4 piece band and they do not spread apart very much- usually not much room around some of these local venues anyway - so they stand real close.
-
I guess I will put in my 2cents. In my experience using earplugs can actually help being able to hear other instruments easier on a loud stage. It removes the room from what you hear and just makes listening to everything a little more comfortable and easy. That is me though. Singers usually don't like it because of the occlussion effect of having your ears plugged. This effect is carried over with many in ear systems as well. It can be dealt with and minimized with higher quality fitted ear pieces or different materials. I have a custom ear piece made from hard plastic that fits well and doesn't seem to have the occlusion effect.
Having mixed several bands in ear mixes ( some with no success ) I have found it to be a hit or miss when it is a one off. I don't work with any bands that have their own IEM setup. I usually end up with a one off that requires it. I have mixed 14 IEM's with 10 conventional wedges at one time with success, but with a pounding headache......... It is not fun to have to do both, I will leave it at that. To boot, in this case it was all rented gear and not one member had their own ear piece. I was not a happy monitor engineer that day. I was also in charge of over 20 channels of wireless. Moving on.....
Stereo vs. mono mixes. The stereo is helpful to acquire easier localization of the members allowing for less overall volume in the mix. Instead of stacking the mix like pieces of paper ( one atop the other ) you can pan left or right and they seem to pop out of the mix easier. This makes a hole in the center for the artist to be more prominent in. Mono mixes work just fine otherwise though, but I find it takes more work to nail the mix in.
I feel it should be the bands responsibility to have at least their own ear piece. I don't want to use something that was in another persons ear, nobody else probably does either ( except that one damn band ). YOu will also want an earpiece of your own ( preferably the same as the band ) so you can listen in on their mix and hear what they hear. you may also want the ability to eq each mix. It is hard enough to create a really clean mix without the ability to eq each channel in a monitor mix, it's not any easier in an IEM system.
The typical IEM system these days is just as affordable as a comparable conventional monitor rig. The cost seems high from a hardware perspective, but tic for tac, it's about the same cost per mix. The thing I don't like about IEM is that it's wireless usually and the same issues most people have about wireless mics is also true for IEM's. There is companding and it is noticable. The better the system the less noticeable it is. Wired IEM, as with mics, usually sound better and more dynamic.
I think your biggest challenge will to be getting the band to work with you and properly conveying what they need to fix their mix. Outside of that it will be a short learning curve that will hurdled soon enough. As with most things new, it just takes some time. Have fun with your new system and report back.
-
Things are going quite well with the EW300s. I don't get to use them much but I enjoy it when the bands want to use them. BTW.... I got the rebates from Sennheiser !!!
I was wondering what settings you guys are using on your limiters on the transmitter and receiver.
I am not sure I am getting it right. I am also confused as to why I need a limiter on both the RX and the TX.
Also, do I need to set the compressor to limit on the aux mixes on the QU16 too?
-
Things are going quite well with the EW300s. I don't get to use them much but I enjoy it when the bands want to use them. BTW.... I got the rebates from Sennheiser !!!
I was wondering what settings you guys are using on your limiters on the transmitter and receiver.
I am not sure I am getting it right. I am also confused as to why I need a limiter on both the RX and the TX.
Also, do I need to set the compressor to limit on the aux mixes on the QU16 too?
well, i can't give you specifics regarding settings for the Sennheiser, but i can answer part of your question.
You need a limiter in the transmitter to keep you from overloading the RF section of the transmitter and causing distortion. it also should help prevent 'oops i forgot to mute before i unplugged my bass' pops from blowing out someone's ears.
You need a limiter in the receiver to prevent RF noise spikes from killing someone's ears. It's also really important to get the gain structure right on these to prevent the same issue. if you don't hit the transmitter hard enough, the performer will turn up their belt pack to compensate. if they get an RF hit all that extra gain will go straight to their ears and that can hurt [ask me how i know].
The problem with limiters in receivers is that the sensitivity of various IEM drivers varies wildly, so it's hard to set a single limit point that will work in most cases. Again, that's why you want to be careful with the gain structure going into your transmitter so the lack of additional headroom in the system will act as a sort of 'automatic limiter' regardless of the sensitivity of the IEM drivers. hope that makes some sense.
Someone else can chime in with Sennheiser specific info. i'm a PSM900/1000 user and the limiters on those works very differently.
-
well, i can't give you specifics regarding settings for the Sennheiser, but i can answer part of your question.
You need a limiter in the transmitter to keep you from overloading the RF section of the transmitter and causing distortion. it also should help prevent 'oops i forgot to mute before i unplugged my bass' pops from blowing out someone's ears.
You need a limiter in the receiver to prevent RF noise spikes from killing someone's ears. It's also really important to get the gain structure right on these to prevent the same issue. if you don't hit the transmitter hard enough, the performer will turn up their belt pack to compensate. if they get an RF hit all that extra gain will go straight to their ears and that can hurt [ask me how i know].
The problem with limiters in receivers is that the sensitivity of various IEM drivers varies wildly, so it's hard to set a single limit point that will work in most cases. Again, that's why you want to be careful with the gain structure going into your transmitter so the lack of additional headroom in the system will act as a sort of 'automatic limiter' regardless of the sensitivity of the IEM drivers. hope that makes some sense.
Someone else can chime in with Sennheiser specific info. i'm a PSM900/1000 user and the limiters on those works very differently.
Thanks Brian,
I tend to run the aux outs high on my board, start the packs out at unity and give the control to the musician to be able to turn up. That way, I have less headroom and there is less risk of me increasing the output to crazy levels - it puts the responsibility on the player.
I thought the sensitivity is what controls the RF input in the transmitter and prevents distortion. Why have a limiter too?
-
One more thing that confuses me regarding getting these levels right is there is also a 'volume boost' setting on the RX.
So on the console I have output control, on the TX I have sensitivity and limiter control......and on the RX I have limiter, volume knob and volume boost .....
-
Since starting to use the iems with one band in particular, I am noticing that the FOH sound is clearer. Hard to describe but it seems like the wedges - even when behaving nicely with zero feedback - were causing unwanted sounds through the FOH which I had gotten used to hearing. Now, everything is sounding clear, clean and separate. I'm not imagining this am I ??
I really enjoy using them and the members of this one band in particular were in love from the first gig.
I do their sound for 90% of their work and they hate going back to wedges because the sound guy they use when I am not available doesn't offer them.
I am so happy I made the investment. It was probably too much of an investment at this point from a financial standpoint but it really has made my job SO much easier.
There was always a point in the evening when things would start to get cranked up a little and that was when the feedback game started. Not any more......joy.....
-
It's not imagination. Simply less destructive sound material being slung around into the mix. With four wedges you would have four points of sound introduction into all open mics, plus that sound would also spill into the house enough to cause destructive comb filtering in the venue. With no wedges you eliminate that many more sources of noise plus no spill of noise back into the mics and venue.
-
It's not imagination. Simply less destructive sound material being slung around into the mix. With four wedges you would have four points of sound introduction into all open mics, plus that sound would also spill into the house enough to cause destructive comb filtering in the venue. With no wedges you eliminate that many more sources of noise plus no spill of noise back into the mics and venue.
Thank you - I am not going mad then !!he he....I think it is one of those things that unless you can compare with and without wedges, you wouldn't even realize how much difference this makes. It is probably the biggest bonus with the iems in my opinion... I hate 'muddy' big time so I'm loving this.....
BTW.... just one ambient mic placed to one side of the stage and left on works like a charm according to the players...."Now, that was easy"....