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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Ivan Feder on July 06, 2012, 08:51:47 AM
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http://www.behringer.com/en/Products/X32.aspx (http://www.behringer.com/en/Products/X32.aspx)
Doesn't look that bad though........... :-\
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http://www.behringer.com/en/Products/X32.aspx (http://www.behringer.com/en/Products/X32.aspx)
Doesn't look that bad though........... :-\
Hey, it says it's "Powered by MIDAS & KLARK TEKNIK" ???
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http://www.behringer.com/en/Products/X32.aspx (http://www.behringer.com/en/Products/X32.aspx)
Doesn't look that bad though........... :-\
A board that has much of the functionality of an LS9-32 at 1/3 the price has to be carefully considered. Of course we're concerned about reliability... But then again, if you scroll through postings in the LAB or LAB Lounge, you don't have to go too far to find someone having an issue with their LS9. I'm just sayin'..
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http://www.behringer.com/en/Products/X32.aspx (http://www.behringer.com/en/Products/X32.aspx)
Doesn't look that bad though........... :-\
Extensive discussion with contributions from a beta tester in Germany... http://soundforums.net/junior-varsity/4393-x32-discussion.html
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Extensive discussion with contributions from a beta tester in Germany... http://soundforums.net/junior-varsity/4393-x32-discussion.html
Right now the reviews of functionality and usability sound good. Obviously, durability is still to be seen. But so far it appears that they have at least made solid contact with the ball on this one.
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But then again, if you scroll through postings in the LAB or LAB Lounge, you don't have to go too far to find someone having an issue with their LS9. I'm just sayin'..
Anecdotal evidence and fawlty statistics. Even without a thorough survey I think it's safe to say that there's virtually a consensus that Yamaha digiconsoles are about as stable as it gets. Of course there will be stories to be found on consoles that have sold those kinds of volume.
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Anecdotal evidence and fawlty statistics. Even without a thorough survey I think it's safe to say that there's virtually a consensus that Yamaha digiconsoles are about as stable as it gets. Of course there will be stories to be found on consoles that have sold those kinds of volume.
Precisely. We know about the failures because of the folks that come to these forums for support, we don't hear from the folks that haven't had issues.
Some posts or subject lines tend to be dramatic. Instead of "it got wet" or "it got hot" or "is 95v. not enough" we get "XYZ FAIL!". Not to say stuff can't just up and die... but that most failures are the result of human factors, not the device itself.
I've seen my share of console glitches over the decades and typically carry some kind of back up mixer so a catastrophic failure can be addressed (at least in a rudimentary fashion).
It will be interesting to see how the X32 does in terms of reliability and build quality. The feature set is deep and the price attractive.
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With thousands of units sold or in use daily I don't think seeing that an LS9 failed during some rainy day gig will be enough to sway my opinions of Yamaha. We're not talking about Yamaha though, we're talking about a company known for product failure and cost cutting manufacturing and development technique. The immidiate appeal of the mixer is it's feature set vs cost. Now stop and think about quality and ask yourself why Beheringer is able to produce the product at a price at least 1/2 less than the cost of comperable products.
I believe in a fair chance for any product regardless of manufacturer, however, unless I'm part of a BETA test then don't expect me to take any manufacturer at thier word UNLESS they have proven themselves to me in the past.
I bought a small Behringer DMX unit once that was comperable to a well know unit costing many times more. I only needed it for occasional use so I thought the $300 to be well spent. The product worked fine for almost a year of occasional use and then just never turned on again. I am now beggining to hear about problems with other low cost digital boards that were introduced about a year ago, problems that shouldn't really exist at this point in the game. My point is simply this. If you feel the urge then by all means make the purchase and let us all know who well the boards holding up..... in about a year. And keep in mind that your reputation will only be as good as the system you stand behind.
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And keep in mind that your reputation will only be as good as the system you stand behind.
I stand behind all my gear......except for the manure spreader......
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Only me or anyone else think how ugly this console is? I don't like these toy-like consoles, I prefer the ones that actually look like a console. Anyway, the X-32 seems good at the price point. I have used many Behringer gear over the years and they usually work fine for 4 years with me. I mixer lost 2 preamps and a GEQ added to much noise after this period. It is funny though that it costs less than a Presonus 24 and does much more...
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Bob,
I have a good deal more skepticism about the X32 than was evident in my post. My thoughts mirror those of others. The features v price ratio is so attractive that we're all intrigued. I think we want it to succeed. We want it be far better than we normally get from Behringer. The long R&D phase along with Uli's willingness to get down in the trenches in some other forums and take the hard questions gives a little hope in that regard.
My comments about the LS9 were very tongue in cheek. The sheer number of them and length of time on the road is going to lead to some glitches. I'm a big fan of Yam. My 01v96v2 served me for 7 years without a single problem that couldn't be traced back to OE. I hope in 3 years, there will be people saying that about the X32
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Hello,
I am not a big fan of behringer, I do use some of their compressors and rackmount DI's. Up to now, I had no trouble with them. In my opignon, the sale price of an LS9 is not driven by the possible market of the LS9 but based on the low end Market of the M7CL series and competitors.
The X32 have IMO a dedicated niche where Yamaha and the others are not there.
Yamaha wants to go on the main stream by having a reliable product at a price you still cannot afford if you are a week end warrior. I am very confident that the LS9 can be sold at 30% less and they will still have a good Ebit on it.
I think I will give a try to the board as soon as they arrive in Montreal. I will get one for try-out by the end of this month. For a lot of us, spending 13K$ on a console is too much because the profitability is very little - So for passionnate people that cannot use a Pro-6/9 or an SD ... its a way to go especially with all of the features it has.
If this console do not fail after a couple of month, yamaha and soundcraft will probably have to either decrease the sale price of the ls9 or revamp the 01V for direct competition.
Othmane
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The long R&D phase along with Uli's willingness to get down in the trenches in some other forums and take the hard questions gives a little hope in that regard.
What did he have to say about IP theft? After all, this is the guy whose 8-bus "console" you could power with a Mackie 8-bus PSU and cable. And that's just one example.
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I am not sure that is a concern. It appears the new strategy is to simply buy the companies that have technology he wants.
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I am not sure that is a concern. It appears the new strategy is to simply buy the companies that have technology he wants.
But when he was unable to buy it, well, ....
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What did he have to say about IP theft? After all, this is the guy whose 8-bus "console" you could power with a Mackie 8-bus PSU and cable. And that's just one example.
He did that so his customers would have a reliable supply of replacement parts
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He did that so his customers would have a reliable supply of replacement parts
James - did you forget the smiley ;-)
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James - did you forget the smiley ;-)
I thought smileys were only to be used when you're kidding? Buy I dont know, this whole inter web is a mystery to me.
:-)
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Bob,
I have a good deal more skepticism about the X32 than was evident in my post. My thoughts mirror those of others. The features v price ratio is so attractive that we're all intrigued. I think we want it to succeed. We want it be far better than we normally get from Behringer. The long R&D phase along with Uli's willingness to get down in the trenches in some other forums and take the hard questions gives a little hope in that regard.
My comments about the LS9 were very tongue in cheek. The sheer number of them and length of time on the road is going to lead to some glitches. I'm a big fan of Yam. My 01v96v2 served me for 7 years without a single problem that couldn't be traced back to OE. I hope in 3 years, there will be people saying that about the X32
Nothing directed to you James. I saw the tongue in cheek. I'm with Doug on this. Yes, it would be nice to see a low cost and reliable board with all of the features needed being produced, but in the end I don't care what features the board has if I can't rely on it 7/24/365. In my daytime nightmare I have to work with solutions that guarantee 99.9 % up time. The equates to quality hardware and a well engineered solution, and that costs money. In Uli's case he can claim all the engineering in the world but until he proves us all wrong he can't claim reliability .
When I run sound for a band, or for my own band I guarantee that even a catastrophe won't stop the show for very long, and by that I mean time measured in minutes, and I can do that because I'm careful about the hardware I select, and backup hardware on hand, but again, that costs money. When I rebuild a Fender amplifier for someone I spend hours on the rebuild using the best components you can buy, and all hand selected to satisfy the owner of that amplifier, and that costs money. So, although I won't mind being proven wrong, I just can't for the life of me feel that Uli's factory can suddenly build a complex piece of hardware simply because the design came from Midas engineers. It's the extra steps, the quality of the components used, the quality control after the build, the testing before release that make the difference, and that costs money. So, once again, I'll wait and see, but based on past performance I, and the rest of us, may be waiting for a long, time to come.
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What did he have to say about IP theft? After all, this is the guy whose 8-bus "console" you could power with a Mackie 8-bus PSU and cable. And that's just one example.
The posted link is open, you can check it out yourself!
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I thought smileys were only to be used when you're kidding? Buy I dont know, this whole inter web is a mystery to me.
:-)
:-) = My text was with the best intentions.
;-) = My text was ironic or a joke.
With young people it gets interesting, because it seems that the newest trend is that ;-) is intended to be an "enhanced :-)". Confusing indeed.
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http://www.behringer.com/en/Products/X32.aspx (http://www.behringer.com/en/Products/X32.aspx)
Doesn't look that bad though........... :-\
We had a demo in our shop last month...the feature set is solid; however, the audio quality is poor. We judged it with a 58 into an input with no eq or processing in or out. The main outputs were patched directly to a Meyer UPJ. The reality is: you get what you pay for. For the price it will sell, but it should never find its way into "pro" use.
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We had a demo in our shop last month...the feature set is solid; however, the audio quality is poor. We judged it with a 58 into an input with no eq or processing in or out. The main outputs were patched directly to a Meyer UPJ. The reality is: you get what you pay for. For the price it will sell, but it should never find its way into "pro" use.
Hello
Can you please be more specific ? Can you please compare to something else ? And please let us know what does sound good also !
Thanks,
Ot
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The posted link is open, you can check it out yourself!
The link to the free million dollars is open. Check it out yourself!
What link. ::)
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We had a demo in our shop last month...the feature set is solid; however, the audio quality is poor. We judged it with a 58 into an input with no eq or processing in or out.
What exactly was poor about the audio quality? Distortion? Coloration? What did you compare against? Was there blind ABX testing? between 2 or more mixers? There have been several of these in the hands of experienced users and so far audio quality has not been a complaint.
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We had a demo in our shop last month...the feature set is solid; however, the audio quality is poor. We judged it with a 58 into an input with no eq or processing in or out. The main outputs were patched directly to a Meyer UPJ. The reality is: you get what you pay for. For the price it will sell, but it should never find its way into "pro" use.
Figures PLEASE.
It's the easiest thing in the world to connect a piece of audio kit up to a decent signal generator and distortion analyser (or integrated testset
like a Soundtech, Amber or Neutrik), set it up for "typical" operation, and run the numbers. I realise Behringer is the brand everyone loves
to hate, but until I see the independantly measured figures, it is all just blind prejudice. FWIW (not much) I don't particularly like the "sound" of the LS9.
Anyone out there got the tech resources to do a shootout between, say, Vi6, LS9, SL24.4.2 and the dreaded X32.
M
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The link to the free million dollars is open. Check it out yourself!
What link. ::)
Page 1 of this thread, Tim Mc's post.
http://soundforums.net/junior-varsity/4393-x32-discussion.html
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Figures PLEASE.
It's the easiest thing in the world to connect a piece of audio kit up to a decent signal generator and distortion analyser (or integrated testset
like a Soundtech, Amber or Neutrik), set it up for "typical" operation, and run the numbers.
Are you saying the mixer with lowest distortion sounds the best?
Behringer Xenyx 802 publishes .005% distortion. Midas H3000 publishes .03%. Which "sounds" better?
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Are you saying the mixer with lowest distortion sounds the best?
No, but it is a significant and measurable factor (along with gain structure, EQ design and a pile of other stuff)
M
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Hello
Can you please be more specific ? Can you please compare to something else ? And please let us know what does sound good also !
Thanks,
Ot
In my opinion as well as the other engineers in my shop the console sounded bad. We compared it to an LS9, mix wizard, Venice, Behringer 802, m7cl, avid profile and a PM5D. All the other consoles sounded like us only louder...the x32 sounded thin and grainy. Frankly, the behringer rep was a tad embarrassed. Again, this is only our opinion.
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No, but it is a significant and measurable factor (along with gain structure, EQ design and a pile of other stuff)
M
All of the measurable specs such as distortion, S/N, freq response, etc, are excellent to outstanding on any mixer on the market, whether it's a $100 Behringer or $50,000 Midas. Unless the numbers fall very short of the norms, they will tell you very little about how the mixer actually sounds.
For sound quality measurement, I know of only one trustworthy device. Every shop would be well-advised to keep at least two good ones available at all times.
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What exactly was poor about the audio quality? Distortion? Coloration? What did you compare against? Was there blind ABX testing? between 2 or more mixers? There have been several of these in the hands of experienced users and so far audio quality has not been a complaint.
Greg,
This was my impression of all the comments as well. I'd be interested to hear from anyone else who's had "ears on" experience.
JG
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All of the measurable specs such as distortion, S/N, freq response, etc, are excellent to outstanding on any mixer on the market, whether it's a $100 Behringer or $50,000 Midas. Unless the numbers fall very short of the norms, they will tell you very little about how the mixer actually sounds.
For sound quality measurement, I know of only one trustworthy device. Every shop would be well-advised to keep at least two good ones available at all times.
Fake plastic ears? I guess I could try that.... ;D
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All of the measurable specs such as distortion, S/N, freq response, etc, are excellent to outstanding on any mixer on the market, whether it's a $100 Behringer or $50,000 Midas. Unless the numbers fall very short of the norms, they will tell you very little about how the mixer actually sounds.
For sound quality measurement, I know of only one trustworthy device. Every shop would be well-advised to keep at least two good ones available at all times.
I'm going to disagree here and say, "If you can hear it, I can measure it".
The snake oil hifi salesmen have for years tried to sell equipment based on claims of audio quality that is beyond measurement, but humanly audible.
Our ears are wonderful and our brains excell at integrating all the information in the amplitude, phase, time and frequency domains to allow us to put the sonic information into something we can interpret. All of this information however, we have the ability to measure with remarkable resolution.
Unless the numbers fall very short of the norms, they will tell you very little about how the mixer actually sounds.
If you understand the measurements they will tell you exactly how the mixer sounds!
Darren
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If you understand the measurements they will tell you exactly how the mixer sounds!
Darren
So if someone sends you the Specs on 3 different mixers, you'll be able to articulate what you like and don't like about the sonic quality of each? Without hearing any of them?
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So if someone sends you the Specs on 3 different mixers, you'll be able to articulate what you like and don't like about the sonic quality of each? Without hearing any of them?
I agree with Darren, but you will need a lot more information than what’s on a typically spec sheet. Frequency response and THD only tell you a small part of the picture.
I would also suggest that there was something wrong somewhere when Ed tested the desk. In 2012 no one could possibly expect to sell a desk that sounded thin and grainy... It would not happen unless something was wrong. Behringer knows the X32 has to sound good and be reliable ... otherwise all the current hype will backfire.
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So if someone sends you the Specs on 3 different mixers, you'll be able to articulate what you like and don't like about the sonic quality of each? Without hearing any of them?
I agree with you James. The specs tell only a small part of the story. Build and component quality, signal path, component type, etc. all play a part. Capacitor type, carbon comp or ceramic resistors, all play a role in the reproduction of sound.
If you build to a low price point then you'll be building with low cost components, and unless you're brain dead that shouldn't be so hard to understand. Ed compared the X32 to 6 other well known boards and until someone else does likewise and can prove him wrong I have no reason to doubt his word.
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I'm going to disagree here and say, "If you can hear it, I can measure it".
The snake oil hifi salesmen have for years tried to sell equipment based on claims of audio quality that is beyond measurement, but humanly audible.
Our ears are wonderful and our brains excell at integrating all the information in the amplitude, phase, time and frequency domains to allow us to put the sonic information into something we can interpret. All of this information however, we have the ability to measure with remarkable resolution.
If you understand the measurements they will tell you exactly how the mixer sounds!
Darren
I love a good argument as much as the next guy but consider you both may be right.
The important audible stuff is simple, frequency response, distortion, noise,,, but to completely define a console would take hundreds of every measurement not to mention all the subtle impression formed around control laws, EQ voicing (frequency, Q etc).
Yes, it will probably measure ruler flat, and low distortion under ideal bench conditions. but that only tells part of the story... There is at least one user posting multiple reports on another forum from an engineer gigging with one, and he is a fan. So lets wait a little longer to hear from more real users putting these through the paces out in the world... Right now the votes seem evenly matched 1 to 1... 8)
JR
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If you build to a low price point then you'll be building with low cost components, and unless you're brain dead that shouldn't be so hard to understand. Ed compared the X32 to 6 other well known boards and until someone else does likewise and can prove him wrong I have no reason to doubt his word.
And conversely, just because the item costs more, doesnt always mean it has better quality components or costs more to produce.
The fact is that the x32 may indeed be a fantastic setup for the price. But no one really knows yet since it isnt public so to hear people say its gonna fail simply because it is behringer is amusing.
No it won't knock down the big boy systems but for theatres and small churches it just might be a decent digital alternative.
Just my 2 cents.
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And conversely, just because the item costs more, doesnt always mean it has better quality components or costs more to produce.
The fact is that the x32 may indeed be a fantastic setup for the price. But no one really knows yet since it isnt public so to hear people say its gonna fail simply because it is behringer is amusing.
No it won't knock down the big boy systems but for theatres and small churches it just might be a decent digital alternative.
Just my 2 cents.
This is my position.
If the X32 works as advertised then I can make a better mix than I can on an LS9 simply because of the DCA's. Not to mention my personal experience with the preamps that Yamaha puts in the <PM5D desks.
It is not designed to take down the Big Boys...but it's design does let me,
a very talented live mixer, create great digital mixes without spending $25-50K+.
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In my opinion as well as the other engineers in my shop the console sounded bad. We compared it to an LS9, mix wizard, Venice, Behringer 802, m7cl, avid profile and a PM5D. All the other consoles sounded like us only louder...the x32 sounded thin and grainy. Frankly, the behringer rep was a tad embarrassed. Again, this is only our opinion.
So you performed a "test" in which even a $100 mixer should do OK, and the X32 failed this test? I can not imagine that is possible unless someone has made a mistake when setting up.
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So you performed a "test" in which even a $100 mixer should do OK, and the X32 failed this test? I can not imagine that is possible unless someone has made a mistake when setting up.
This gets to the root of concern about buying a Behringer product, though. Maybe they got a bad one. With manufacturers above MI that's very much a rarity.
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This is my position.
If the X32 works as advertised then I can make a better mix than I can on an LS9 simply because of the DCA's. Not to mention my personal experience with the preamps that Yamaha puts in the <PM5D desks.
It is not designed to take down the Big Boys...but it's design does let me,
a very talented live mixer, create great digital mixes without spending $25-50K+.
I don't need the DCAs cause the LS9 has a custom fader layer, which is great. I just need to create a submix to the drums and control the master aux from the custom fader just like a DCA. But yes, this feature is great on such a low price point mixer.
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[quote author=Jared Koopman
Snip
No it won't knock down the big boy systems but for theaters and small churches it just might be a decent digital alternative.
Just my 2 cents.
[/quote]
Small churches are often tempted to use inexpensive equipment because of limited budgets. Most church services are dead in the water if the sound reinforcement stops. People didn't come to eat or drink or dance, they came to listen and for about half of the service, to listen to just one talker.
Based on this and my personal experience with Behringer and there IP issues I urge churches to wait and see if the X32 is truly from a new changed Behringer
From a small Behringer free church.
Frank
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... If you build to a low price point then you'll be building with low cost components, ...
Bob, I am probably taking your coment out of context, and I apologize in advance, but here's a thought to share:
We need to take into consideration that the component costs and especially manufacturing/assembly costs go down when volume gets into the tens of thousands of units compared to hundreds of units. Excluding R&D costs, I suspect it would probably cost a smaller company without an existing manufacturing infrastructure in China something like $10K each to build only a hundred X32s.
Behringer might also be introducing the X32's at or near cost as a brand building exercise, hoping to make some future profit after volume ramps up, or make profit on accessories such as the digital snake heads and personal monitoring systems, or even drive sales of unrelated products with high margins. Maybe there will be a third-party SW market.
Something worth considering before some people assume that 'it can't be very good because it is so cheap'.
I am hopeful it is a great hit and drives the price/performance of other boards in this range. Still, I'm not buying one right now.
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Mark,
I agree with all of your points and don't dispute the fact the board may well be just what we have all been waiting for, an entry level board with a full feature set at a low price. I don't dispute the component costs decrease as purchased volume rises, that's business 101.
What I dispute is the sudden reported change in overall quality and support which remains to be seen. If it were me and I had my hands on an X32 my first task would not be to listen to the board. My first task would be to disassemble the board. I have taken a let's wait and see attitude, the same attitude I took when Presonus released their boards. Now based on reports I have read I don't believe I would purchase a Presonus board, but that's just me.
My last food for thought is simply this;
A. If Behringer, who now owns Midas, can put out a quality 32 channel board for less than 3K, how long will we wait to see the price drop in the Midas entry level boards.
B. No one has answered my question concerning repair. Is this another throw away product, will there be trained technicians at local repair centers, or will the board have to be sent back to Uli.
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Something worth considering before some people assume that 'it can't be very good because it is so cheap'.
I am hopeful it is a great hit and drives the price/performance of other boards in this range.
IMNSHO, many "higher end" pro audio pieces are grossly overpriced, due to either high licensing fees (e.g. Cobra net/Cirrus), or profit/cachet motivations (e.g. Dolby Lake). The examples of the X32 and the Presonus pieces bear this out. No Midas has ever been worth it's list price...but we paid for it, because we had to. Many/most "upper level" consoles are built with the same crap components as everything else...and you who've been inside them doing repairs know what I am talking about.
Ed Walters
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IMNSHO, many "higher end" pro audio pieces are grossly overpriced, due to either high licensing fees (e.g. Cobra net/Cirrus), or profit/cachet motivations (e.g. Dolby Lake). The examples of the X32 and the Presonus pieces bear this out. No Midas has ever been worth it's list price...but we paid for it, because we had to. Many/most "upper level" consoles are built with the same crap components as everything else...and you who've been inside them doing repairs know what I am talking about.
Ed Walters
So why some last longer than others? Pure lucky? I had a teacher who also owned a company to rent audio gear and he always said the PM5D was built though and almost never had problems while the digidesign consoles were much more fragile.
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Bob, I am probably taking your coment out of context, and I apologize in advance, but here's a thought to share:
We need to take into consideration that the component costs and especially manufacturing/assembly costs go down when volume gets into the tens of thousands of units compared to hundreds of units. Excluding R&D costs, I suspect it would probably cost a smaller company without an existing manufacturing infrastructure in China something like $10K each to build only a hundred X32s.
Behringer might also be introducing the X32's at or near cost as a brand building exercise, hoping to make some future profit after volume ramps up, or make profit on accessories such as the digital snake heads and personal monitoring systems, or even drive sales of unrelated products with high margins. Maybe there will be a third-party SW market.
Something worth considering before some people assume that 'it can't be very good because it is so cheap'.
I am hopeful it is a great hit and drives the price/performance of other boards in this range. Still, I'm not buying one right now.
I don't think the cost comparison should be between Behringer and a small company. It seems Several companies in the industry could compete at similar manufacturing scale. The sense within the industry was that Yamaha was losing money for years with their digital console program, and Yamaha knows how to build stuff and sold a few.
This may be a gamble that the sales volume will support the razor thin margins and payback the investment in software. Unclear how much of the software is common between Behringer and Midas platforms, logic suggests savings from not duplicating such a massive effort. At least the R&D can be shared and spread across more SKUs
I'm am waiting to see how these perform in the marketplace and sell through once the pipeline is filled. The roadside is littered with products that could not fail (segway). I am not smart enough to predict the future. The drama surrounding this product seems a bit much.
"In the future all restaurants will be taco bell", and all mixers will be digital. 8)
JR
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Nearly all the lower-$$ pcs of gear that I have encountered over the years have always had more compromises in the mechanical parts (hardware, potentiometers, switches, etc) than in the electronics or designs. Look at the entry-level Soundcraft, Yamaha, etc. The cheaper units feel cheaper. Behringer products have always felt cheaper, as they do not offer any products that really compare to the true pro gear.
I can't imagine any upper-tier rental company jumping on these for their main rigs, but I can see applications in smaller bands or churches IF the things actually sound decent. I have never used a Behringer mixer that had decent mic preamps, so I am skeptical until I actually have hands-on experience (unless several of the experts I respect on this forum) relate favorable results.
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So if someone sends you the Specs on 3 different mixers, you'll be able to articulate what you like and don't like about the sonic quality of each? Without hearing any of them?
James, I wish it were that easy,lol!
I agree with you James. The specs tell only a small part of the story. Build and component quality, signal path, component type, etc. all play a part. Capacitor type, carbon comp or ceramic resistors, all play a role in the reproduction of sound.
If you build to a low price point then you'll be building with low cost components, and unless you're brain dead that shouldn't be so hard to understand. Ed compared the X32 to 6 other well known boards and until someone else does likewise and can prove him wrong I have no reason to doubt his word.
Bob, the manufacturers specs may only tell a small part of the story, but comprehensive measurements of a piece of equipment are a different story.
Take 2 manufacturers loudspeakers, both with the same fresp specs, say 45hz-18khz +-3db. Why do they sound different. Because that spec is very limited in what it tells. If we looked, for example, at a tef waterfall plot of the two they would not be identical. I can probably count on one hand the manufacturers who publish enough data about thier equipment to be really useful. Most consumers do not have a background in electronics and can not interpret in depth measurements, so they only focus on what they do have a grasp of. The marketing dept. knows this!
You are right, the electronic components used make a difference(though not as much as people believe), but those differences ,if audible, are 100% measurable.
in almost 30 years in the electronic industry I have never come across something I could hear but was invisible to the correct measurement techniques!
The most efficient cost cutting in manufacture is in hardware/mechanical parts and predominantly in the labour used to build and ship it. Nowadays electronic components are cheap. Failures in low end equipment tend more to build quality/mechanical issues, broken switches, plugs, poor ribbon cables and dry joints etc.
I have no idea what the x32 will be like, but given Uli's recent marketing push of buying Midas, Turbo(and I think KT) he has too much riding on this to allow it to be less than average! He has bought these companies not so much for thier existing profitibility but for the perceived quality that comes with the name. Thier profits would be tiny compared to Behringer! He knows, more than anyone, that he has a lot of people to convince! Now he just needs to back this up with the end product.
Like him or hate him, he is a very smart businessman.
Darren
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... The roadside is littered with products that could not fail (segway).
... "In the future all restaurants will be taco bell"
One of my greatest memories is a tour of D.C. on a Segway. Too much fun. A product before it's time.
...and one of my favorite movie lines, even if it was Sandra Bullock.
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...given Uli's recent marketing push of buying Midas, Turbo(and I think KT) he has too much riding on this to allow it to be less than average! He has bought these companies not so much for thier existing profitibility but for the perceived quality that comes with the name. Thier profits would be tiny compared to Behringer! He knows, more than anyone, that he has a lot of people to convince! Now he just needs to back this up with the end product.
Like him or hate him, he is a very smart businessman.
Darren
This sums up to a T exactly why I have a hard time believing that, after all the hype and buzz and "game changer" rhetoric (and of course recent business acquisitions), they would risk the X32 not performing up to par. If he's trying to earn peoples trust again, this product being of poor quality would be the nail in the coffin IMO. Before the X32 has even hit the shelves they have people like myself and others excited about their product when the company has never given me a reason to be excited about anything they've done in the past.
Uli is not stupid. He knows they have a bad reputation with pretty much anyone who bases their purchases decisions on something other than price.
It seems pretty clear he's trying to change that reputation. The open Q & A on soundforums.net is ballsy and a good first start IMO. It appears manufacturing facilities and equipment have been upgraded as well. If the X32 proves to be solid and reliable then he will have significantly increased the portion of his potential market that would ever consider purchasing his products.
I, like many others really want the X32 to be all that its cracked up to be, for all the obvious reasons. All skepticism about this console and Behringer in general is well warranted. But one can hope that a company can put out a fully featured (and reliable) digital desk in the hands of people that would otherwise not be able to afford one.
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Snip
Uli is not stupid. He knows they have a bad reputation with pretty much anyone who bases their purchases decisions on something other than price.
It seems pretty clear he's trying to change that reputation. The open Q & A on soundforums.net is ballsy and a good first start IMO. It appears manufacturing facilities and equipment have been upgraded as well. If the X32 proves to be solid and reliable then he will have significantly increased the portion of his potential market that would ever consider purchasing his products.
Snip
And at the same time they are still shipping bad product. A friend bought 3 ADA8000s in April. (He doesn't always take my advice) two of them have failed.
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And at the same time they are still shipping bad product. A friend bought 3 ADA8000s in April. (He doesn't always take my advice) two of them have failed.
If anything has changed at Behringer, it would only apply to the X32. They're not going to stop the assembly lines on other product lines and revise manufacturing processes on already profitable items. Maybe someday they will, but that will likely be when they introduce new products with new names.
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So you performed a "test" in which even a $100 mixer should do OK, and the X32 failed this test? I can not imagine that is possible unless someone has made a mistake when setting up.
OR...the mixer was dammaged or it actually sounded bad. (my guess is the demo mixer they brought was damaged in some way. When we patched into the monitor outputs we noticed a high frequency sound on just the monitor buss like the sound from an old tube TV. When we asked about the noise we received a blank stare. And, OF COURSE we checked all the settings on the console as well as the other components we used.) It is worries me that the demo mixer was not functioning at what, I hope, was not 100 percent.
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I can probably count on one hand the manufacturers who publish enough data about thier equipment to be really useful. Most consumers do not have a background in electronics and can not interpret in depth measurements, so they only focus on what they do have a grasp of. The marketing dept. knows this!
It's actually a little worse than that and the consumers are complicit in rewarding some kinds of specs over others with their purchases, leading to more of that, in simple market economics.
For example in a console, preamp frequency response. distortion, etc would need to be specified at all gains, or at least three gains, or perhaps a range of responses to be completely comprehensive. The industry can't even agree on a definition for boost/cut equalizer Q shape, so even if they spec that we can't know precisely what they actually mean. etc etc etc :o
You are right, the electronic components used make a difference(though not as much as people believe), but those differences ,if audible, are 100% measurable.
in almost 30 years in the electronic industry I have never come across something I could hear but was invisible to the correct measurement techniques!
Agreed, we encounter far more measurable than audible deviations, as it should be. That's the point of bench test equipment to extend our personal resolution beyond what we can easily perceive.
The most efficient cost cutting in manufacture is in hardware/mechanical parts and predominantly in the labour used to build and ship it. Nowadays electronic components are cheap. Failures in low end equipment tend more to build quality/mechanical issues, broken switches, plugs, poor ribbon cables and dry joints etc.
Cost cutting by definition must begin with where the cost is. Looking at where cost is now in modern equipment. Labor cost has been driven to smaller and smaller fractions first by automation and then by offshore based manufacturing (who also use automation). Labor can be somewhat further reduced by attention to design detail, but the bulk of the cost available to cut comes from the components.
Large manufacturers wield a lot of leverage with parts vendors when buying millions of each. At the same time there is a long line of vendors trying to buy into that business, and it takes testing and time, to determine which parts offered are too cheap to work... Since purchasing agents get rewarded for reducing cost, they can be annoyingly aggressive about pursuing cheaper vendors. (insert multiple stories here).
Midas and higher end manufacturers do not pursue the cheapest parts they can find that work, since they are not competing that aggressively on cost. Midas will still benefit from Behringer's purchasing muscle when buying premium parts. Behringer OTOH is competing on price, so very involved in pursuing lowest cost component vendors or they lose their advantage over other deep value manufacturers.
I have no idea what the x32 will be like, but given Uli's recent marketing push of buying Midas, Turbo(and I think KT) he has too much riding on this to allow it to be less than average! He has bought these companies not so much for thier existing profitibility but for the perceived quality that comes with the name. Thier profits would be tiny compared to Behringer! He knows, more than anyone, that he has a lot of people to convince! Now he just needs to back this up with the end product.
Like him or hate him, he is a very smart businessman.
Darren
This is not so easy to predict, making this whole thread mental masturbation, but for a little observation and applied manufacturing math. Yes, the familial relationship with Midas should help both. Behringer can help Midas dramatically reduce their manufacturing costs (I ASSume, i never paid much attention to Midas particulars), OTOH Midas can share with Behringer engineers and product people how real consoles should behave. Managing this cross pollination wrt maximizing return from both is not trivial (ask me how I know 8) ). If the Midas becomes too much like a Behringer they lose their market love (probably have already lost some). If the Behringer offering is too good, who would ever buy another Midas? They can maintain some product differentiation with cosmetic dress, and feature content, but since features inside digital products are often software based with no incremental manufacturing cost, I would expect feature creep upward on the Behringer side.
Just like most of the ice in an iceberg is under water, most of the profit in this family is on the Behringer side, so long term if one of the two gets thrown under the buss* it will likely be the Midas product. For now I expect to see a major marketing and PR effort to differentiate them as two distinct product lines.
Of course the future hasn't happened yet, so who knows, not me. We should have hands-on user reports soon enough. These look GOP (good on paper). Time will tell how this all plays out. I have heard rumors from that side of the Pacific about a huge purchase oder for AP test equipment, It will take time and training to put all those into productive use. Hopefully Uli's engineers, designed in a lot of self test diagnostic capability into this paltform.
JR
PS: Not to make excuses but pre-production prototypes often suffer more assembly compromises than full production, stuff happens. I wouldn't read too much into one isolated bad report. We'll have more reports soon.
*I spelled bus wrong on purpose to be funny.
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IMNSHO, many "higher end" pro audio pieces are grossly overpriced, due to either high licensing fees (e.g. Cobra net/Cirrus), or profit/cachet motivations (e.g. Dolby Lake). The examples of the X32 and the Presonus pieces bear this out. No Midas has ever been worth it's list price...but we paid for it, because we had to. Many/most "upper level" consoles are built with the same crap components as everything else...and you who've been inside them doing repairs know what I am talking about.
Ed Walters
I agree the value proposition for pro audio has been moving "upside down" for at least a decade.
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This discussion is reminding me of the concerns I still have with Behringer that there seems to be a lot of discussion and focus on the products but little regarding the support for the products or assistance in applying them effectively. While the product itself, or at least the name on it, is usually a factor in 'pro audio' equipment selections, I'll bet that for many the manufacturer's support of the gear and the pro audio market in general as well as the results they obtain using the equipment may also be factors. Are such 'value added' aspects lost in trying to offer a product as cost effectively as possible and applying more of a commodity approach? Is there a point at which that is generally not acceptable?
I'm also wondering if some of the Behringer warranty and other terms will change for 'pro' products. Behringer's standard three year warranty apparently limits coverage for pots, meters, faders and basically anything you physically operate to one year and the power supply to 90 days. So despite it being marketed as having a three year warranty, that seems to essentially make the warranty for a product like the X32 effectively a one year warranty. Or will the warranty for the 'pro' products eliminate some of the limitations in the Behringer consumer/MI product warranty?
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Truly great post, JR. You are one of the reasons I frequent this forum.
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Customer support
They build 50,000,000 those that need repair will be taken care of by 125 people
Here are some numbers on repair cap from Uli
we produce and sell; more than 5 million pieces annually! When you think about it, even 1% of that volume equates to 50,000 pieces; enough to ensure that our products are going to be found on a repair bench more often than others.
Overall, our Care Division now employs over 125 employees on four continents providing support in 7 languages and we’re investing more.
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Truly great post, JR. You are one of the reasons I frequent this forum.
+1
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They build 50,000,000 those that need repair will be taken care of by 125 people
Here are some numbers on repair cap from Uli
we produce and sell; more than 5 million pieces annually!
Which number is correct?
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Which number is correct?
Is it important...? His point is that he is a large volume manufacturer so even a minuscule failure rate will appear like large numbers compared to low volume manufacturers that don't make that many units in the first place. As i have pointed out before, if the actual failure rate was as high as perception and rumor, he wouldn't be buying other companies, he'd be scrambling to stay in business.
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Behringer has undertaken a significant PR campaign recently to effectively say "this time it's different". Only time will tell, trust but verify, caveat emptor, yadda yadda...
JR
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OR...the mixer was dammaged or it actually sounded bad. (my guess is the demo mixer they brought was damaged in some way. When we patched into the monitor outputs we noticed a high frequency sound on just the monitor buss like the sound from an old tube TV. When we asked about the noise we received a blank stare. And, OF COURSE we checked all the settings on the console as well as the other components we used.) It is worries me that the demo mixer was not functioning at what, I hope, was not 100 percent.
Ed - just to be clear, was the mixer shootout a blind test, so that the listeners couldn't tell which mixer was which, or were the mixers out in the open for all to see?
I'd have to imagine that even before the X32 was turned on that people's perceptions would be clouded.
Time will tell on this X32 in terms of long term tests with units out on the road for 9-12 months. This seems like one where being the early adopter may not be worth it.
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As i have pointed out before, if the actual failure rate was as high as perception and rumor, he wouldn't be buying other companies, he'd be scrambling to stay in business.
JR
What are failure rates of other large volume manufacturers like Mackie and Peavey?
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http://www.behringer.com/en/Products/X32.aspx (http://www.behringer.com/en/Products/X32.aspx)
Doesn't look that bad though........... :-\
I'm interested in the X32 mostly for what it represents, rather that what it is/will be.
That said I don't see a day in the next few years when anything with "Behringer" on it will be rider-friendly.
From the standpoint of a system provider, I also hope it does not become too friendly, in general. From a purely business perspective this device means folks with insufficient experience and chops will be competing for a slice of work we do. Yes, Virginia, I don't like competing with guys that buy their PA at Banjo Depot and market to clients that they have the same capability that we (and other larger, more experienced providers) have. Remember the "no Peavey" on riders? It wasn't there because Peavey made shitty gear, it was there mostly because Peavey's price point made it possible for posers and wanna-be's to claim they could do shows that were beyond their abilities. The X32 will do the same. The problem is that most clients only look at the bottom line of the quote or bid and assume the vendors are a "commodity" that can be interchanged at will.
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What are failure rates of other large volume manufacturers like Mackie and Peavey?
I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you... 8) Seriously this is not published data especially for private companies, but the math is compelling. For a low cost, thin profit margin, product you can not afford to eat very many infant-early failures before sales dry up and the music stops. Since these value products are the profit engine behind Behringer it must be working economically or there would be no money honey.
It has been a bunch of years since I've been inside the walls at Peavey, but i recall working on the review before we extended the warranty to 5 years a long time ago now. The law of large numbers suggests that making thousands of SKUs means large aggregate numbers of failures, but looked per SKU it's a very tiny percentage.
I suspect this is not the right question to ask. Product robustness is as much a design feature as matter of manufacturing process control. While poor build can hurt a good design, perfect assembly won't help a weak design where the rubber meets the road.
Again only time will tell, if the new Behringer has designed and is delivering a robust new product that holds up in the applications of interest to this forum (live sound). They are apparently addressing a broader market including recording.
Relax. I suspect we will get field reports from actual users soon enough.
JR
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The law of large numbers suggests that making thousands of SKUs means large aggregate numbers of failures, but looked per SKU it's a very tiny percentage.
So if a $200 MSRP has a 1% failure rate, the mfg expects failures to cost them $1 per unit, since wholesale is approx 50% MSRP? Is that how they do the math?
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I'm interested in the X32 mostly for what it represents, rather that what it is/will be.
That said I don't see a day in the next few years when anything with "Behringer" on it will be rider-friendly.
From the standpoint of a system provider, I also hope it does not become too friendly, in general. From a purely business perspective this device means folks with insufficient experience and chops will be competing for a slice of work we do. Yes, Virginia, I don't like competing with guys that buy their PA at Banjo Depot and market to clients that they have the same capability that we (and other larger, more experienced providers) have. Remember the "no Peavey" on riders? It wasn't there because Peavey made shitty gear, it was there mostly because Peavey's price point made it possible for posers and wanna-be's to claim they could do shows that were beyond their abilities. The X32 will do the same. The problem is that most clients only look at the bottom line of the quote or bid and assume the vendors are a "commodity" that can be interchanged at will.
To be fair, the X32 is going to replace GL 2400's and the like. That guy doesn't have the rest required to do anything bigger than he could before.
Speakers and amps still cost big bucks.
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To be fair, the X32 is going to replace GL 2400's and the like. That guy doesn't have the rest required to do anything bigger than he could before.
Speakers and amps still cost big bucks.
Plus lots more than 1!!
Similarly, the Presonus piece replaces $3k analog, and the new Mackie DL1608 replaces the $1k analog. It's just that you get so much more for your digital buck...unfortunately, all that processing, in the hands of musos and others with skills to match, means that those users will likely dig even deeper holes of lousy sound...
Ed
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So if a $200 MSRP has a 1% failure rate, the mfg expects failures to cost them $1 per unit, since wholesale is approx 50% MSRP? Is that how they do the math?
I don't know how others do the math. The retail mark up has little to do with it besides reversing us back to a nominal dealer price, which is neither the manufacturer's cost nor their potential exposure (while sales that could be returned at any time on demand are a financial balance sheet liability). I can point out that the landed manufacturer's cost basis is well less, while the potential exposure or liability could be even more.
Your back of the envelope calculation, is correct that a 1% failure rate for a $100 dealer cost SKU is $100 per 100 units or $1/unit in nominal shrinkage, but I suspect behringer did not refund cash to dealers, but instead issued a replacement or credit. So their out of pocket cost was more like the landed cost, plus any extra shipping to get a replacement to the dealer. So probably well less than your $1/per.
But before we embrace this as a winning business practice don't forget the extraordinary administrative attention to manage these faulty units cluttering up the supply chain, that is very unproductive. Not to mention the very negative halo effect, or bad impression made on dealers and customers who experience these infant failures. We only get one change to make a first impression.
Then there was probable abuse by some dealers. When some dealer figures out that he is sitting on too many XYZ boxes that have suddenly fallen out of favor with the marketplace, and he has a a liberal return policy available, that means he can probably get a credit or swap for other better selling models and can probably just send them back with no questions asked? Behringer has publicly complained that many (most?) such returns were not faulty. The truth is probably somewhere less than all bad (just guessing).
There is no question that Behringer managed to make a great deal of money over the years despite these issues, but that is no way to run an airline for long term success and they had to clean up their old act that didn't play well with a maturing brand, and softer selling markets.
Note: this is mostly speculation and guesswork on my part. I have no idea what they do, and don't really care. i can tell from a distance they made enough money to buy some other companies recently, while some of that may be OPM and distressed prices.
JR
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Warranty and support are very important to most of us, but getting local support is becoming more difficult, even in a major city like Houston. A 10-year warranty is not worth much if the product breaks down 10-15 times during that period, and if you have to ship it back on your nickel (which is common) it doesn't take long to be on the losing end of a bad deal, not to mention the hassle of having to replace or do without the piece of gear.
You do your research, make your choice, and hope for the best.
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OR...the mixer was dammaged or it actually sounded bad. (my guess is the demo mixer they brought was damaged in some way. When we patched into the monitor outputs we noticed a high frequency sound on just the monitor buss like the sound from an old tube TV. When we asked about the noise we received a blank stare. And, OF COURSE we checked all the settings on the console as well as the other components we used.) It is worries me that the demo mixer was not functioning at what, I hope, was not 100 percent.
I guess Behringer should be worried about that too, or be worried about reps not having the knowledge or training either to resolve the problem or handle the situation in a way that doesn't embarrass the product.
I'm interested in the X32 mostly for what it represents, rather that what it is/will be.
That said I don't see a day in the next few years when anything with "Behringer" on it will be rider-friendly.
From the standpoint of a system provider, I also hope it does not become too friendly, in general. From a purely business perspective this device means folks with insufficient experience and chops will be competing for a slice of work we do. Yes, Virginia, I don't like competing with guys that buy their PA at Banjo Depot and market to clients that they have the same capability that we (and other larger, more experienced providers) have. Remember the "no Peavey" on riders? It wasn't there because Peavey made shitty gear, it was there mostly because Peavey's price point made it possible for posers and wanna-be's to claim they could do shows that were beyond their abilities. The X32 will do the same. The problem is that most clients only look at the bottom line of the quote or bid and assume the vendors are a "commodity" that can be interchanged at will.
As the technology evolves, it is natural that the equipment offered to the mudcrawlers and ancle-biters among us evolves at the same rate as the high-end super deluxe pro equipment. The fact that this evolution enables us to provide for free or at a lowly rate to those who can't afford to pay the premium rate, a semblance of the facilities and quality afforded the established acts and venues, shouldn't come as a surprise, and shouldn't threaten the established providers.
If anything, the gap between what people expect and what they realistically can have has widened in recent years. Parents nowadays expect (or demand) pristine sound when their ten year old is performing at a school or youth club recital, so the cost of a performance becomes so prohibitive that the young hopefulls hardly ever get to perform. The same goes for start-up bands, nobody wants them if they haven't got the gear, and nobody wants to pay the price of hiring the gear needed unless the band has a name that will generate the revenue needed to make the gig profitable.
Affordable gear makes it possible for the next generation of talent to actually gain some stage experience before the big boys with the millon dollar gear take over.
We have all heard some sound engineer telling a story about some new talent that didn't know how to hold a mike, being clueless about monitors and/or being completely thrown off by in-ears. If the pros want to show up with their quality gear and help out for free, then please feel welcome, if not, be happy that someone with affordable gear helps them along.
If somebody with crap gear steals your gig, you will get it back when the promoter discovers that your service was better value for money, ( or not, in which case.......... )
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Mudcrawlers... sounds like a cajun dish. Can they mix? :D
If you're not bidding on my gigs, you're not biting my ankles. I don't have a problem with you at all. The impact of those that do, however, is contamination of the Client Pool in the manner that the Peavey rig owners of 30 years ago did. The clients liked the price; when the acts demanded better the clients didn't want to pay more. It takes years of impeccable service to get get profits back up.
I certainly agree that expectations have out-striped budgets; there are different levels of service. Many clients cannot/do not understand what level of service they require or fathom the experience often required to genuinely meet their needs. I have no problem with offering lesser gear, but my boss is pretty insistent that we deliver a particular level of service to the client.
I have a story about new talent and mic technique, but I'll save it for another time...
Have fun, good luck.
Tim Mc
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I have a story about new talent and mic technique, but I'll save it for another time...
Teasers should be against forum rules. Once a juicy topic is raised, it must be fully explored, even if on a new thread. But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong. :-)
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Mark,
A. If Behringer, who now owns Midas, can put out a quality 32 channel board for less than 3K, how long will we wait to see the price drop in the Midas entry level boards.
Midas Pro 1
Under 10k
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... But then again, if you scroll through postings in the LAB or LAB Lounge, you don't have to go too far to find someone having an issue with their LS9. I'm just sayin'..
However, 95% of those LS9 problems are user based, and not a problem with the LS9 itself.....
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However, 95% of those LS9 problems are user based, and not a problem with the LS9 itself.....
P.I.C.N.I.C.
Problem In Chair, Not In Console
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Hi Guys,
I’m the new here:-)
Some of you know me from the former SAC forum or maybe from the soundfroums .net.
I’m a German soundguy and I work as writer for a German pro audio magazine (www.tools4music.de) as well.
I live just a ten minute drive away from the German Behringer HQ, where the X32 was developed.
I wrote two reviews (audio measurements included) about the X32 ( here is one--> http://www.behringer.com/assets/X32_Tools_English.pdf )
and I was a member of the beta test team for the X32 console.
I still have one console with me and did 35 gigs with it. You can read about it here-->
http://soundforums.net/junior-varsity/4393-x32-discussion.html#post29532
If you have any question about the console, I can try to answer it. Why I'm doing this?
As long as there are questions, I don’t have to bring the console back to Behringer;.-)
Christian Boche
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Hi Guys,
I’m the new here:-)
Some of you know me from the former SAC forum or maybe from the soundfroums .net.
I’m a German soundguy and I work as writer for a German pro audio magazine (www.tools4music.de) as well.
I live just a ten minute drive away from the German Behringer HQ, where the X32 was developed.
I wrote two reviews (audio measurements included) about the X32 ( here is one--> http://www.behringer.com/assets/X32_Tools_English.pdf )
and I was a member of the beta test team for the X32 console.
I still have one console with me and did 35 gigs with it. You can read about it here-->
http://soundforums.net/junior-varsity/4393-x32-discussion.html#post29532
If you have any question about the console, I can try to answer it. Why I'm doing this?
As long as there are questions, I don’t have to bring the console back to Behringer;.-)
Christian Boche
Christian, welcome, you need to change to your real name in your registration.. unless WurstWerner is your real name.
I have one question. Did you find it a conflict of interest to work on the beta test team developing the product and then write magazines reviews about that same product for magazines?
JR
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Hi Guys,
I’m the new here:-)
Some of you know me from the former SAC forum or maybe from the soundfroums .net.
I’m a German soundguy and I work as writer for a German pro audio magazine (www.tools4music.de) as well.
I live just a ten minute drive away from the German Behringer HQ, where the X32 was developed.
I wrote two reviews (audio measurements included) about the X32 ( here is one--> http://www.behringer.com/assets/X32_Tools_English.pdf )
and I was a member of the beta test team for the X32 console.
I still have one console with me and did 35 gigs with it. You can read about it here-->
http://soundforums.net/junior-varsity/4393-x32-discussion.html#post29532
If you have any question about the console, I can try to answer it. Why I'm doing this?
As long as there are questions, I don’t have to bring the console back to Behringer;.-)
Christian Boche
Quick, Christian, change your display name to your real name before the forum police show up!
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I have one question. Did you find it a conflict of interest to work on the beta test team developing the product and then write magazines reviews about that same product for magazines?
+1. The referenced review had a lot of praise and no mention of any shortcomings. E.g. "The Behringer X32 is a digital console with no serious weaknesses." The whole thing sounded rather like an infomercial.
While there are many good things to be said about the X32, I find it hard to believe that a serious objective reviewer can't find any room for improvement in the mixer.
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Changed my name, thanks for the hint!
I just wrote an Epic posting but I was automatically loged out and my writing is down the drain:-(
I will repley later, now I have to go and mix some bands...with the X32 of course;-)
Christian
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While this may vary with different computer browsers, occasionally when I get stopped out of a forum session, I can use the browser back arrow button to get back to the edit session and recover the earlier work. Probably too late for you this time.
JR
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https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/lazarus-form-recovery/
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Thank you guys - next time I will be prepared:-)
I have one question. Did you find it a conflict of interest to work on the beta test team developing the product and then write magazines reviews about that same product for magazines?
Nice question - serious answer. In reality the truth is even more bizzare. As a beta tester, I had to sign a NDA. This is quite the opposite to my job as a writer. So I told the guys at Behringer, that I will write the review my way and they were ok with that. In the end my name is on that review, so I didn't compromise on that.
The situation was like this: I had one of the very few X32 consoles at home, long before any of our mag competitors could have their hands on it. So I took the chance and wrote the first review of the X32.
The referenced review had a lot of praise and no mention of any shortcomings. E.g. "The Behringer X32 is a digital console with no serious weaknesses." The whole thing sounded rather like an infomercial.
While there are many good things to be said about the X32, I find it hard to believe that a serious objective reviewer can't find any room for improvement in the mixer.
Well you might consider the possebility, that even Behringer designed a piece of gear, that is decent. I know, that might be hard to belive but sometimes things just happens :-) Regarding room for improvements. The X32 has the same price tag as a Yamaha 01V96 or a Presonus SL 16.4.2 over here. Featurewise the X32 is a different beast, I think we can agree on this. Let's look at the audio specs. Really good measurement results and an overall latency of 0,8ms from analog in to analog out...room for improvements?
We all know, that the after sale service from Behringer was less than stellar in the last decade. Here is room for improvement, indeed. And they have to stand the test of time, if the promised improvements will reach to broad Behringer customership. Three years warrenty is at least one first step in the right direction.
Christian
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Thank you guys - next time I will be prepared:-)
Nice question - serious answer. In reality the truth is even more bizzare. As a beta tester, I had to sign a NDA. This is quite the opposite to my job as a writer. So I told the guys at Behringer, that I will write the review my way and they were ok with that. In the end my name is on that review, so I didn't compromise on that.
The situation was like this: I had one of the very few X32 consoles at home, long before any of our mag competitors could have their hands on it. So I took the chance and wrote the first review of the X32.
Sounds like an unusual opportunity for both you and them.
Well you might consider the possebility, that even Behringer designed a piece of gear, that is decent. I know, that might be hard to belive but sometimes the truth hurts:-)
I don't think people here are rooting for Behringer to fail or stumble, maybe some competitors are, but we have seen less complex products fail to live up to initial promises. With this new model the promises keep piling up. A lot of people are placing orders sight unseen based on your reports and general speculation. i wish everybody a good outcome.
Regarding room for improvements. The X32 has the same price tag as a Yamaha 01V96 or a Presonus SL 16.4.2 over here. Featurewise the X32 is a different beast, I think we can agree on this. Let's look at the audio specs. Really good measurement results and an overall latency of 0,8ms from analog in to analog out...room for improvements? I don't think so.
There is always room for improvement in any product, 8) but I am waiting to hear reports from end users after they get to use these in their sundry applications.
What we all know, that the after sale service from Behringer was less than stellar in the last decade. Here is room for improvement, indeed. And they have to stand the test of time, if the promised improvements will reach to broad Behringer customership. Three years warrenty is at least one first step in the right direction.
Christian
Again, time will tell. I have no reason to believe they won't do everything they promise while longer warranty and increased after sale support all cost money that will need to come from somewhere.
I have found a 1 year limited warranty on their website in the support section. it says the limited warranty can be extended to 3 years in countries supported by company operated service centers without any specific details.
If I was in the market for such a product I would be interested in potential replacement cost of pots, faders and switches. If we expect lower cost components to be used in such competitively priced offering, shorter serviceable life is one expected consequence from using cheaper mechanical components. (Speculation on my part, but probably a safe guess).
I guess we'll find out soon enough.
JR
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I guess we'll find out soon enough.
JR
"Time Will Tell", as they said when the famous Swiss archer competed in the 100 meters.......
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I suppose I'll ask again. does anyone know what the support model will be. Replacement, bring it in, parts overnight, service centers where none exist now. WTF, is this a Uli secret.
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I don't think people here are rooting for Behringer to fail or stumble, maybe some competitors are, but we have seen less complex products fail to live up to initial promises. With this new model the promises keep piling up.
+1. We want this mixer to be great. The feature set / price ratio is extremely attractive. If time proves the initial bravado from Behringer to be warranted, it will do very well in the market. It won't replace the > $15k mixers, but will give the < $10k a serious run.
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My first digital mixer was a DDX3216 and it worked fine for me for the couple of years I had it. I have also had several ADA8000s also with no trouble. I am real tempted to replace my 01V96 with a X32 (though will wait till fall at least).
My expectation is the service model will become visible once the product is actively shipping in various countries.
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+1. We want this mixer to be great. The feature set / price ratio is extremely attractive. If time proves the initial bravado from Behringer to be warranted, it will do very well in the market. It won't replace the > $15k mixers, but will give the < $10k a serious run.
James -
Who are "we"?
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James -
Who are "we"?
Good question, Doug.
I certainly don't pretend to speak for the audio community as a whole.
I see this as attractive to those who a) will never need or afford an SC48 b) sorta liked the layout and functionality of the LS9 but thought that it's price deserved better sonics c) do a few multi-stage festivals through the year and would like to have more than 1 digital mixer in the inventory.
Maybe I've just described myself and no one else. Thus far, I like what I see on the surface, but am not sold.
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My first digital mixer was a DDX3216 and it worked fine for me for the couple of years I had it.
My not first digital mixer was a DDX3216 and it worked fine for me for the couple of hours I had it.
Mac
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I suppose I'll ask again. does anyone know what the support model will be. Replacement, bring it in, parts overnight, service centers where none exist now. WTF, is this a Uli secret.
Hi Bob,
just found that-->
http://www.behringer.com/news/music-group-aims-for-best-in-class-care-operations/
on the Behringer site. This seems to be a step head, oddly enough there are no email or phone contacts though? Might be added sometime.
The Behringer Facebook site states this: [email protected] as contact for any technical problem.
I don't know, how this is managed over the pond. Here in Europe you buy gear at your dealer and within the 3 years warranty, you can send it back to the dealer and he is in charge. After the warranty it seems, you should contact one of these new care centers directly. I wish, Behringer would clear up the whole procedure. By now, it seems a bit vague to me.
If would have a problem with the X32, I would drive to the Behringer HQ directly and annoy anyone in the R&D to fix it:-)
Christian
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James -
Who are "we"?
Perhaps that was the queen's "we"... ;D (as in "we are not amused").
My generalization (and I ASSume others) was in response to the comment
(posted and later edited)
Well you might consider the possebility, that even Behringer designed a piece of gear, that is decent. I know, that might be hard to belive but sometimes the truth hurts:-)
I guess we could start a poll to find out how this "group" actually feels about Behringer. That would probably be useful market research, so I won't.
JR
PS: That original comment has been edited (thank you) but IMO it still needs to be considered to provide context, for the sundry comments made in response to it. i don't plan to edit mine (AND THAT IS WHY I USE QUOTES!!!!)
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Hi Bob,
just found that-->
http://www.behringer.com/news/music-group-aims-for-best-in-class-care-operations/ (http://www.behringer.com/news/music-group-aims-for-best-in-class-care-operations/)
on the Behringer site. This seems to be a step head, oddly enough there are no email or phone contacts though? Might be added sometime.
The Behringer Facebook site states this: [email protected] as contact for any technical problem.
I don't know, how this is managed over the pond. Here in Europe you buy gear at your dealer and within the 3 years warranty, you can send it back to the dealer and he is in charge. After the warranty it seems, you should contact one of these new care centers directly. I wish, Behringer would clear up the whole procedure. By now, it seems a bit vague to me.
If would have a problem with the X32, I would drive to the Behringer HQ directly and annoy anyone in the R&D to fix it:-)
Christian
"Hello, my X32 has just shit the bed......... I have to what???................ Send it to Nevada??????........ Can you send parts overnight???...................... NO??,, Why not??? ........... I see, OK. .......... You think I should re-schedule my dates??? Why??? ........... I can't wait three weeks, how about I reach through the phone and snatch your ass out here to Boston so you can fix it for me?........click
"Located just minutes from the world famous Las Vegas Strip, our Nevada location will serve all Canadian and US customers."
“Two years ago we launched a massive audit of our customer CARE systems and determined that the best way to ensure a superior customer experience was to bring product repair in-house,” states company founder and CEO Uli Behringer. “With one of the lowest defect rates in the industry, it only made sense to deliver after-sale repair and parts supply directly to our end users so as to ensure the best possible experience with our products.”
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http://www.behringer.com/assets/X32_from_FOH_1207.pdf
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"Hello, my X32 has just shit the bed......... I have to what???................ Send it to Nevada??????........ Can you send parts overnight???...................... NO??,, Why not??
FWIW, I was told that Behringer was likely to adopt the service model of most consumer electronics companies - the "no service from the dealer, call this 1-800 number" version. From a dealer POV, I simply LOVED the idea until I realized that it removes a layer of communication between my client and I, and I'd say that it's a 50/50 kinda thing...
If you buy a laptop at Bestbuy, do you take it to bestbuy in 6 months if it fails? No... You call the manufacturer, and they probably won't send you back to bestbuy, and that's best for both of them.
Overnight? Likely not.
Can you getbparts? Hell no, the stuff doesn't really get repaired most if the time.
Ship it back on your dime, and they'll ship you back on theirs.
Don't ship it in a flightase, that costs extra to ship something that's already broken.
If this was a 2-ch comp, no big deal... You likely have more.
It doesn't matter that the console is the heart of your rig and you didn't backup your settings, or that you have a gig tomorrow.... You console is just another SKU on a computer screen to the guy you're talking to on the phone.... And I see nothing wrong with that - support costs money and it has to comes from somewhere.
At 3000-ish street , there isn't a lot of coin in there for anyone... That was difficult enough when clients wanted service & support on a $129 compressor... :P
Thinking of products in this category as "pro-sumer" (or whatever else you choose to call them) I believe puts it all into perspective... The "high levels of support" that many of us expect comes as part of the price tag of buying "professional-level" equipment - Someone mentioned that buying Midas consoles were always overpriced, but if you had a real problem I'd bet it was taken care of.... And the support excellent.
My concern is with the ever-blurring lines of what is "Pro Audio", as the race to the bottom continues.... Makes me wonder if, when taco bell is the only restaurant.... Can I get extra sour cream on my soft taco?
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Perhaps that was the queen's "we"... ;D (as in "we are not amused").
My generalization (and I ASSume others) was in response to the comment
(posted and later edited)
Well you might consider the possebility, that even Behringer designed a piece of gear, that is decent. I know, that might be hard to belive but sometimes the truth hurts:-)
I guess we could start a poll to find out how this "group" actually feels about Behringer. That would probably be useful market research, so I won't.
JR
PS: That original comment has been edited (thank you) but IMO it still needs to be considered to provide context, for the sundry comments made in response to it. i don't plan to edit mine (AND THAT IS WHY I USE QUOTES!!!!)
Hi John,
I edited my original posting after reading it twice. I thought, it sounded to pathetic:-) Obviously I'm not a native speaker, so I still struggling with the right words.
If I set the world peace in danger with this...well, I'm am obviously guilty 8)
Basically I came here, to talk about the X32 since there are no or very little quantities available right now and I thought, there were some questions about the X32. I have some real world experience with the desk and did numerous gigs with it. It seems, that some have already form an opinion about the board. Anyway, have great weekend!
Christian
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Hi John,
I edited my original posting after reading it twice. I thought, it sounded to pathetic:-) Obviously I'm not a native speaker, so I still struggling with the right words.
If I set the world peace in danger with this...well, I'm am obviously guilty 8)
Basically I came here, to talk about the X32 since there are no or very little quantities available right now and I thought, there were some questions about the X32. I have some real world experience with the desk and did numerous gigs with it. It seems, that some have already form an opinion about the board. Anyway, have great weekend!
Christian
I thanked you already, but thanks again for the less confrontational tone.
I can only speak for myself and indeed I do have strong opinions about the company not the product. My opinions were formed over decades from observing and competing with them. No need to rehash that again. Uli has made very public postings elsewhere discussing changes and new company policies. I wish him success with that.
Regarding the new product(s) I am still waiting for reports from forum regulars after they get their hands on some and use them in their regular gigs. I do not mean to discount your observations, it's just that the community has vetted new products that way very effectively for decades.
There is even a forum here dedicated to road testing new products, named "road test". That seems a good area for kicking the tires. Something is probably already in the works.
I have worked in the industry for decades so know the right questions to ask. I want people to form their own opinions based on as much information as possible, not what I think.
JR
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Regarding the new product(s) I am still waiting for reports from forum regulars after they get their hands on some and use them in their regular gigs. I do not mean to discount your observations, it's just that the community has vetted new products that way very effectively for decades.
There is even a forum here dedicated to road testing new products, named "road test". That seems a good area for kicking the tires. Something is probably already in the works.
I have worked in the industry for decades so know the right questions to ask. I want people to form their own opinions based on as much information as possible, not what I think.
JR
I had been thinking that a road test that went through Craig's and then Langston's hands would go a long way to answering my questions/concerns, far more than the current speculation.
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Christian,
I think you're a little off base here. I don't think anyone is hoping for a disaster, and other than to state this looks like a fairly well featured product at a good price I have not formed an opinion on the X32. However, until proven wrong my opinion of Behringer quality and effective repair services remains unchanged, and one (1) authorized service center 2000 miles from my home isn't about to change my stance.
Consumer, prosumer, pro level hardware, software or accessories makes no difference to me. I can take a toaster back to the store I bought it at and I'll receive a new one. I can call the appliance store and they'll send someone to my door. I can go to Sears with a screwdriver and it will be replaced free of charge with no questions asked. I can seek and find immidiate repair services and support for any other sound product I own within 30 minutes of my home if needed, and that includes for obscure products from entry level manufacturers such as Mackie, Altos, etc. That is the difference between Behringer and the rest of the world.
Let me know if that changes because the day I can turn around a piece of Behringer hardware without all the bullshit involved, without having to send it away, and with complete piece of mind the problem will be resolved properly and for good, then I'll become a customer.
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Hi John,
I edited my original posting after reading it twice. I thought, it sounded to pathetic:-) Obviously I'm not a native speaker, so I still struggling with the right words.
If I set the world peace in danger with this...well, I'm am obviously guilty 8)
Basically I came here, to talk about the X32 since there are no or very little quantities available right now and I thought, there were some questions about the X32. I have some real world experience with the desk and did numerous gigs with it. It seems, that some have already form an opinion about the board. Anyway, have great weekend!
Christian
It looks like you are out in the sun in that picture. How readable is the screen and the indicators in the sunlight?
Also I was a bit disappointed to hear that is only has a 100-scene memory. That takes it out of the running for school plays/musical theater for me.
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It looks like you are out in the sun in that picture. How readable is the screen and the indicators in the sunlight?
Also I was a bit disappointed to hear that is only has a 100-scene memory. That takes it out of the running for school plays/musical theater for me.
More than 100 scenes in one show?
Couldn't you just save the "next 100 " on a USB drive and swap them out when needed,
If/when the pc editor goes live perhaps you can save additional scenes there? Not sure haven't seen the manual yet.
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More than 100 scenes in one show?
Yes. In a theater musical it is very common to have more than 100 scenes. I don't think this console is aimed at that market though. It may be possible to load act 2 from a USB stick during intermission.
Mac
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Hi all,
I suck in digging the "undertone" in the English language - so please be patient with me. No offend:-)
@Kevin: The main LCD on the X32 is more or less the same qualitiy that you find on a Roland M400 or Yamaha LS9. In direct sunlight you will have a problem. Only the scribble strips are quite good to read in sunlight, not so the main LCD.
And yes 100 scenes, that's all. You can load more with a USB drive, but that is a quite clumsy solution. In addition the X32 has no adjustable fade time between the scenes but lot's of options for recall safe and so.
Christian
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It looks like you are out in the sun in that picture. How readable is the screen and the indicators in the sunlight?
Also I was a bit disappointed to hear that is only has a 100-scene memory. That takes it out of the running for school plays/musical theater for me.
When you get to complicated shows it is a lot easier to use Show Control. But to do that the mixer has to have the Midi implemented.
Hopefully that will happen quite soon, or I'll be just as annoyed as I was when my satellite HDR arrived with the network port disabled >:(
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When you get to complicated shows it is a lot easier to use Show Control. But to do that the mixer has to have the Midi implemented.
Hopefully that will happen quite soon, or I'll be just as annoyed as I was when my satellite HDR arrived with the network port disabled >:(
Hi Per,
got a new firmware for the X32 yesterday. I hooked up a Midi-Interface at the hardware out of the console and activated the Mackie HUI protocol in the X32. In remote mode the X32 sends midi signals through the hardware midi out on the console. So I think, we are up and running concerning midi:-)
BTW: The midi options on the console are like this-->
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I had been thinking that a road test that went through Craig's and then Langston's hands would go a long way to answering my questions/concerns, far more than the current speculation.
Or Evan Kirkendall, if they want to perform some destructive testing ;D
Sorry Evan, couldn't resist.
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Hi Per,
got a new firmware for the X32 yesterday. I hooked up a Midi-Interface at the hardware out of the console and activated the Mackie HUI protocol in the X32. In remote mode the X32 sends midi signals through the hardware midi out on the console. So I think, we are up and running concerning midi:-)
BTW: The midi options on the console are like this-->
Good, and thank you again Christian for your fantastic contribution, you're the public relation Behringer must wish they had. ;) (Uli, make this guy an offer he can't refuse!)
Hopefully the midi implementation will let us do show control of both the scene recall variety and the parameter control variety.
BTW, I wonder if it is possible to use the remote control interface to do show control? Such a thing wouldn't depend on the console of course, but on the software in the computer, maybe someone doing big shows on recent hardware has the answer to that one?
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First, thanks to Christian for his seemingly-tireless willingness to explain this new console. Clearly many of us are willing to put hope over experience as we contemplate this device.
Regarding repairability and what to do when there's a problem, it seems to me that at this price level, you buy two if you want one to ALWAYS be operational. There is a cost to be paid for getting professional features at a consumer price, and perhaps that cost is the price of a backup unit. ASSuming that the previous widely-discussed B history of "two years and dead" is no longer true.
FWIW I have never owned any Behringer gear, but based solely on Christian's reports am considering this product. How it sounds in critical applications, along with how it holds up, will be what tips the scales.
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First, thanks to Christian for his seemingly-tireless willingness to explain this new console. Clearly many of us are willing to put hope over experience as we contemplate this device.
Regarding repairability and what to do when there's a problem, it seems to me that at this price level, you buy two if you want one to ALWAYS be operational. There is a cost to be paid for getting professional features at a consumer price, and perhaps that cost is the price of a backup unit. ASSuming that the previous widely-discussed B history of "two years and dead" is no longer true.
FWIW I have never owned any Behringer gear, but based solely on Christian's reports am considering this product. How it sounds in critical applications, along with how it holds up, will be what tips the scales.
We've got a couple of clients that might benefit from a rig built around the X32 or something similar. My personal experience is on Yammy and VENUE consoles but that doesn't mean they're right for everything. My Behringer ownership is limited to an ADA8000; the company has a half-dozen Multi Coms and Composers. The highest failure rate we've had was with their DIs purchased for the C rig. About half of them have failed over 3-5 years.
That all said, I think the X32 is more important for what it could stand for - a quantum change in new product philosophy - or it could be more of the same but nicely dressed up. Time will tell.
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Are you serious when you say that buying two is the solution to not having repair issues? Regardless of cost your suggestion borders on the ridiculous. Based on your business model I would suppose that because I only paid $2500 for an APB Pro House I should purchase a second console to put in it's place should this one ever fail. Where's the price point or what's the correct verbiage to be used in determing the need for purchasing two (2) of any item. I own many guitars ranging in price from $15K to 2-3K. Should I just buy duplicates for the 2-3K valued guitars or should I by a duplicate for them all if they don't "Pro approved" on the headstock. And if I break strings should I throw them away? Behringer's gonna love you.
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Are you serious when you say that buying two is the solution to not having repair issues?
The venerable Bennett has said, "Two is one and one is none."
I thought the common solution to back-up is to keep a MixWizard handy........
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Regarding repairability and what to do when there's a problem, it seems to me that at this price level, you buy two if you want one to ALWAYS be operational.
Q. What other $3000 item would you buy two copies because you're afraid the first one will crash?
A. None. You wouldn't buy the first one if you had that concern.
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Q. What other $3000 item would you buy two copies because you're afraid the first one will crash?
A. None. You wouldn't buy the first one if you had that concern.
Yup. Along those lines, if this were the only choice (let's say it was a promo gig), I would go with THREE units.
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Are you serious when you say that buying two is the solution to not having repair issues? Regardless of cost your suggestion borders on the ridiculous. Based on your business model I would suppose that because I only paid $2500 for an APB Pro House I should purchase a second console to put in it's place should this one ever fail. Where's the price point or what's the correct verbiage to be used in determing the need for purchasing two (2) of any item. I own many guitars ranging in price from $15K to 2-3K. Should I just buy duplicates for the 2-3K valued guitars or should I by a duplicate for them all if they don't "Pro approved" on the headstock. And if I break strings should I throw them away? Behringer's gonna love you.
A failed console will suck no matter what, but I think Dan is suggesting that for a "Classic LABster", $3k on backup isn't a big deal. It might be for other users.
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A failed console will suck no matter what, but I think Dan is suggesting that for a "Classic LABster", $3k on backup isn't a big deal. It might be for other users.
Right, the $3k isn't the big deal. But if I am that worried about failure, I'm just not gonna buy it. If the cost is $6K instead of $3K, there are better options.
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Right, the $3k isn't the big deal. But if I am that worried about failure, I'm just not gonna buy it. If the cost is $6K instead of $3K, there are better options.
Indeed. :)
This will not stop houses of worship and low end users from buying X32s, though. The size of those markets dwarf the market of professional users.
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And please Tim, money is money regardless. I have some deep pockets but I'll be dipped in shit if I spend 3K on ANYTHING and then look at it as a throw away item. We need to eliminate the class distinction and start insisting that it is NOT OK to accept poor support and quality regardless of manufacturer and regardless of cost. One service center for all of Canada and the United States is poor support.
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Q. What other $3000 item would you buy two copies because you're afraid the first one will crash?
A. None. You wouldn't buy the first one if you had that concern.
I suggest having a backup for every "single point of failure" in your system. For me, that is a console and DSP. It doesn't have to be an exact duplicate, but it should be able to get you through a show.
Last year, I had an EAW UX8800 fail twice mid-show. The second time it happened was after the unit had just come back from being "repaired". EAW has since replaced the unit. It would have been show over if I didn't have a dbx DriveRack as a back-up. YMMV
JP
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And please Tim, money is money regardless. I have some deep pockets but I'll be dipped in shit if I spend 3K on ANYTHING and then look at it as a throw away item. We need to eliminate the class distinction and start insisting that it is NOT OK to accept poor support and quality regardless of manufacturer and regardless of cost. One service center for all of Canada and the United States is poor support.
Ah hell, Bob, I remember when $3000 was worth at least $1500!
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Ah hell, Bob, I remember when $3000 was worth at least $1500!
I get much stronger as I age. 40 years ago I couldn't carry $20 worth of groceries. Hell, now I can carry $80 worth in one bag.........
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And please Tim, money is money regardless. I have some deep pockets but I'll be dipped in shit if I spend 3K on ANYTHING and then look at it as a throw away item. We need to eliminate the class distinction and start insisting that it is NOT OK to accept poor support and quality regardless of manufacturer and regardless of cost. One service center for all of Canada and the United States is poor support.
Relax Bob. Don't blow a gasket! Those are expensive :-)
No one has suggested that the X32 is throw away. However, if my $10k mixer shits at a gig, no support chain is gonna help me so I better have a spare in the trailer! Ok, after the gig I may want it fixed quick...
Also, the actual repair and tech support process has not been explained by anyone with actual knowledge of it. Since the device is still "in the pipeline" at the moment, what is currently posted is a moot point.
Also, no one with knowledge has said you need to ship the desk to Nevada!
The only statement with credibility is that the tech support center is in Nevada. I don't remember, but it seems like Crown's is near Chicago and I am sure Yamaha's isn't in Burlington MA either. That said, there are places in the area I can take gear to have it serviced and depending on the damage, it really might have to go "home" for a tuneup. That happened with a QSC amp for me a couple of years ago.
So, Bob, chill a bit?
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Even with the regional company that I work with when not touring we still send out a backup analog (usually something smaller, say 24-32 channel) just in case. never have had to pop the case open but I always figured that was standard.
Cover
Your
Ass
Read that another way because if you don't cover it, C-ya when it comes to getting the next show from that client.
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Oh yeah, curious as to when I'll run into one of these since I do a decent amount of club tours where the price of this perfectly fits the provider's budget. (even though I spec out a 40+ channel count but that's another thread.... )
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Q. What other $3000 item would you buy two copies because you're afraid the first one will crash?
A. None. You wouldn't buy the first one if you had that concern.
Depends what level you're at. Every show and tour I've been on has 2 lighting consoles, worth upwards of $50k each, just because they do crash. Many tours have a backup mixing console worth a similar amount or more.
But you're not wrong in saying that buying an unreliable piece of equipment at any price (unless you have no choice) never makes good business sense.
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But you're not wrong in saying that buying an unreliable piece of equipment at any price (unless you have no choice) never makes good business sense.
And of course we're all speculating on the reliability of the X32 right now. Only time will tell....
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Right, the $3k isn't the big deal. But if I am that worried about failure, I'm just not gonna buy it. If the cost is $6K instead of $3K, there are better options.
ANY piece of electronics is one failed resistor away from not working any more.
Big shows have spare XL8/SD7/PM1/etc consoles. Guess they must suck...
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And please Tim, money is money regardless. I have some deep pockets but I'll be dipped in shit if I spend 3K on ANYTHING and then look at it as a throw away item. We need to eliminate the class distinction and start insisting that it is NOT OK to accept poor support and quality regardless of manufacturer and regardless of cost. One service center for all of Canada and the United States is poor support.
If for environmentalism alone, I agree that there should be a lot less consumable items in society!
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Relax Bob. Don't blow a gasket! Those are expensive :-)
No one has suggested that the X32 is throw away. However, if my $10k mixer shits at a gig, no support chain is gonna help me so I better have a spare in the trailer! Ok, after the gig I may want it fixed quick...
Also, the actual repair and tech support process has not been explained by anyone with actual knowledge of it. Since the device is still "in the pipeline" at the moment, what is currently posted is a moot point.
Also, no one with knowledge has said you need to ship the desk to Nevada!
The only statement with credibility is that the tech support center is in Nevada. I don't remember, but it seems like Crown's is near Chicago and I am sure Yamaha's isn't in Burlington MA either. That said, there are places in the area I can take gear to have it serviced and depending on the damage, it really might have to go "home" for a tuneup. That happened with a QSC amp for me a couple of years ago.
So, Bob, chill a bit?
OK Rob, just for you, Tim, and Dick. You've been to my place so you know backups aren't a problem, and you should always plan for the worst, but I'm not into the two for one purchasing plan. But OK, I'll relax before I have a stroke.
PS - Rob if you have some time I would like you to check an issue I might have with my system.
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OK Rob, just for you, Tim, and Dick. You've been to my place so you know backups aren't a problem, and you should always plan for the worst, but I'm not into the two for one purchasing plan. But OK, I'll relax before I have a stroke.
PS - Rob if you have some time I would like you to check an issue I might have with my system.
back in the dark ages of large scale analog desks, the only really critical sound system component that you ALWAYS had a spare for was the console power supply. just about anything else could be patched around. make the rig mono. go 2-way instead of 3-way. bypass the group section on the desk. go with a couple less inputs. you get the idea.
nowadays the console itself is a single point of failure. when the desk crashes, there isn't really any way to just use the parts that are still working. usually the whole thing is working, or it's dead. this is a very different world. and of necessity it means that we're talking about bringing a spare desk of some sort. or we're risking show stopping failure.
in that reality, the idea of having a spare x32 is not such a crazy notion. or for that matter, buying one to use as the spare for your much more expensive main desk. we used to pay thousands just for a power supply. 3K for a backup desk is not too much to ask...
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Hi,
I'm curious how you deal with failing gear within the warranty time over the pond. Here in Germany you bring the "fail-item" to the dealer, where you bought gear and he is in charge. Sure, it might take some time for the dealer to ship the item (I guess, the X32 would be shipped to England to the Behringer Care Center) and it will take some time before you get it back. But this is like most console manufactors/distributors roll here. Even Yamaha has outsourced the technical service for their pro audio gear.
Concerning the X32, once I saw the inside of the desk. Should be pretty easy to repair, as it is completly build with "8-blocks-boards" (inputcard, outputcards, 8block fader packs and so on), no big "one board solution". In addition there is one "industrial mainboard (no consumer pc stuff)" and one big switching power PSU...that's all. I guess, if something fails - they would just change the specific 8block board and you are up and running again. The build in USB recorder and the recording card are prefab parts from http://www.archwave.net
Let's see...
Christian
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I have found a 1 year limited warranty on their website in the support section. it says the limited warranty can be extended to 3 years in countries supported by company operated service centers without any specific details.
I really wish the details of the warranty would be clarified as the Behringer warranty seems to be a one year limited warranty unless you register the product online within 90 days of purchase. And even then the three year limited warranty seems to limits coverage of power supplies and accessories to 90 days and limits coverage of LCD and digital displays, pots, meters, switches, faders and "Any mechanical component that may be affected by externally applied force" to one year.
The warranty also "...covers only the product hardware. It does not cover technical assistance for hardware or software usage. In addition it does not cover any software products whether or not contained in the purchased product package. Any software is provided only in the condition and format contained with the product, unless expressly provided for in any enclosed software limited warranty." With a firmware and software based device, how does that work? What if their software is faulty or causes problems? What if upgrading firmware or software causes problems, especially if it is done at their recommendation?
So while a three year warranty may be advertised, if those same requirements and exclusions apply to the X32 warranty then the warranty seems to effectively be one year on the hardware, 90 days on the PSU and nothing for the software. I would really like to see that clarified one way or the other.
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In the case of the ADA8000 if you need service, you can send it to Behringer or you can take it to any local shop. The local shop may refuse to work on it because they cannot get Schematics.
I learned that the easiest way to negotiate the Behringer service issue is to buy something else.
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And of course we're all speculating on the reliability of the X32 right now. Only time will tell....
Depends what level you're at. Every show and tour I've been on has 2 lighting consoles, worth upwards of $50k each, just because they do crash. Many tours have a backup mixing console worth a similar amount or more.
But you're not wrong in saying that buying an unreliable piece of equipment at any price (unless you have no choice) never makes good business sense.
No one has suggested that the X32 is throw away. However, if my $10k mixer shits at a gig, no support chain is gonna help me so I better have a spare in the trailer! Ok, after the gig I may want it fixed quick...
(snip)
A failed console will suck no matter what, but I think Dan is suggesting that for a "Classic LABster", $3k on backup isn't a big deal. It might be for other users.
This sequence of posts outlines my hopeful thinking.
Instead of having a $10k mixer (or a $50k mixer), with a spare in the truck that would get you though a show in an emergency, this B mixer (ASSuming it is basically reliable and sounds good enough for the purpose) will allow you to have both the primary and a spare for well under $10k total. That hopeful scenario would be a win, in my book.
And I'm surprised and saddened that this forum has apparently evolved to the point where a $3k backup to insure against catastrophic failure is outrageous to many posters. I'm happy that many people got what I was saying, but am somewhat distressed that there were so many who didn't. My Series Five/MH series backup PS was over $2k in greater-valued dollars IIRC; how is $3k for an entire console a complete shock to your sensibilities?
If I could have a digital console that is reliable and sounds good, and costs $3k, with another for monitors, and could then bulletproof my system by having a spare for $3k, that is a no-brainer, and should be for any sound company that is at the level that I thought the LAB was all about.
But then are those companies using this console at all? All my shows are not Varsity shows (in fact very few are anymore), so I could benefit from this B mixer more than I would from a $30k digital console. I ASSume others are in the same boat.
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This is always an unpleasant topic to discuss before purchase, but everything breaks and the show must go on.
If two of these could be networked together with one at FOH and one on Monitors, they could effectively back each other up to provide limp along mode in case one breaks down. .....or not.
Much ado about hypotheticals.
JR
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And I'm surprised and saddened that this forum has apparently evolved to the point where a $3k backup to insure against catastrophic failure is outrageous to many posters. I'm happy that many people got what I was saying, but am somewhat distressed that there were so many who didn't. My Series Five/MH series backup PS was over $2k in greater-valued dollars IIRC; how is $3k for an entire console a complete shock to your sensibilities?
If I could have a digital console that is reliable and sounds good, and costs $3k, with another for monitors, and could then bulletproof my system by having a spare for $3k, that is a no-brainer, and should be for any sound company that is at the level that I thought the LAB was all about.
Dan -
This product is cross-pollinating. In fact, I'm moving it to the Lounge. It really doesn't belong here.
The topic of backup hardware for regional and above does belong here, however. I think some of our weekend warriors would be surprised at the lack of backup at the higher levels.
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Dan -
This product is cross-pollinating. In fact, I'm moving it to the Lounge. It really doesn't belong here.
The topic of backup hardware for regional and above does belong here, however. I think some of our weekend warriors would be surprised at the lack of backup at the higher levels.
In this era of razor thin margins, I am NOT surprised by the gamble of not buying and carrying spare whatevers. I'll bet there's a good story or 2 out there about system failure and no recuperation on a fairly high profile show.
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Dan -
This product is cross-pollinating. In fact, I'm moving it to the Lounge. It really doesn't belong here.
The topic of backup hardware for regional and above does belong here, however. I think some of our weekend warriors would be surprised at the lack of backup at the higher levels.
Good call, Doug, thanks.
And agreed about the need for a backup thread. I almost wrote in my post about my only Galileo dying at a show, and how I solved the problem with a different piece of gear.
Thanks again,
Dan
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In this era of razor thin margins, I am NOT surprised by the gamble of not buying and carrying spare whatevers. I'll bet there's a good story or 2 out there about system failure and no recuperation on a fairly high profile show.
Most stories tend to be about how the day was saved when something happened to the rig or the console ;)
I guess very few bar/week-end bands carry spares, but I would be surprised if a provider didn't have some kind of backup.
Funny thing, now that this thread has moved to the lounge, a thread about wonky SC48 has moved to the top in the LAB. There are plentiful stories about even big Digidesign/Digico/AH/Midas/Yamaha mixers going down or suffering from some fader issue, but if someone finds a Behringer with an issue it will be "told you so, that crap is useless".
I'll keep an analogue board in my trailer, it will probably be worthless in terms of resale value anyway.
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Most stories tend to be about how the day was saved when something happened to the rig or the console ;)
I guess very few bar/week-end bands carry spares, but I would be surprised if a provider didn't have some kind of backup.
Funny thing, now that this thread has moved to the lounge, a thread about wonky SC48 has moved to the top in the LAB. There are plentiful stories about even big Digidesign/Digico/AH/Midas/Yamaha mixers going down or suffering from some fader issue, but if someone finds a Behringer with an issue it will be "told you so, that crap is useless".
I'll keep an analogue board in my trailer, it will probably be worthless in terms of resale value anyway.
I agree. I put my 01V96 in trailer just in case. Ok, it doesn't have all the inputs my LS9 has but at least we can finish the show if we need to.
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Yes.
But.
The Presonus isn't made by Behringer.
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This sequence of posts outlines my hopeful thinking.
Instead of having a $10k mixer (or a $50k mixer), with a spare in the truck that would get you though a show in an emergency, this B mixer (ASSuming it is basically reliable and sounds good enough for the purpose) will allow you to have both the primary and a spare for well under $10k total. That hopeful scenario would be a win, in my book.
And I'm surprised and saddened that this forum has apparently evolved to the point where a $3k backup to insure against catastrophic failure is outrageous to many posters. I'm happy that many people got what I was saying, but am somewhat distressed that there were so many who didn't. My Series Five/MH series backup PS was over $2k in greater-valued dollars IIRC; how is $3k for an entire console a complete shock to your sensibilities?
If I could have a digital console that is reliable and sounds good, and costs $3k, with another for monitors, and could then bulletproof my system by having a spare for $3k, that is a no-brainer, and should be for any sound company that is at the level that I thought the LAB was all about.
But then are those companies using this console at all? All my shows are not Varsity shows (in fact very few are anymore), so I could benefit from this B mixer more than I would from a $30k digital console. I ASSume others are in the same boat.
What's the view like from way up there? I ASSume we must all look tiny. Insignificant even.
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What's the view like from way up there? I ASSume we must all look tiny. Insignificant even.
Yes, you do..........
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Hey,
A lot of confusion and stress around this x32 ! What will be important to my opignon is a nam test with some technical comparison with competition. S/N ratio, THD ... Should be run and even quality of the switching power supply can dramatically affect the life of this gear. Cheap parts without proper filters (caps and coils) will certainly cause issues with time like in any new electronic system.
I wish we can in this tread work together in developing a test plan for this console this way the only thing that will make us like or hate this board is our ears and personnal appreciation of the feel. The rest to me is not important !
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I've used my SL24.4.2 a lot over the last year, recording, remote mixing etc. I have a SL16.0.2 that I have as a back up. It will let me limp through a show, and still work with the remote mixing etc. handy for smaller gigs as well.
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What's the view like from way up there? I ASSume we must all look tiny. Insignificant even.
Hi Troy,
Taking your facetious question seriously: it's funny, I was talking about this subject you are alluding to (before I saw your post) today with a guy who has been with me coming up on 30 years. We agreed that it's amazing the tools we have available to us today that either didn't exist 30 years ago, or you had to try to build it yourself, or it cost tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars and was only a fraction as capable as what we take almost for granted today.
Then, we could only dream of a PA that could more than adequately cover a couple thousand people that would fit in a van, and have all pieces that could be moved if not lifted by one guy, and have a quality of output that rivals the best studio monitors along with more power than we could dream about, with either lightweight amps or no external amps at all.
I did a show by myself a couple weeks ago in a parking lot with three fairly loud alternative rock bands. I took 1 Meyer UPJ-1P per side, and one Meyer USW-1P per side, and that was PLENTY of volume in that situation (City ordinance limiting to 95 dbA at 50' averaged over a minute). That system was not even close to its limit, which was unbelievable to a mindset from 30+ years ago, which I often have.
The funny thing about this business is that if you stay with it long enough (can get through the many crappy years, when money is no good, gigs are no good or not enough, etc.), and get quality gear as you go along, after some time you will have a considerable quantity of really decent gear that performs adequately or more so, and you can continue to build on your strengths rather than keeping playing catch-up.
OTOH, in my experience, you never really get to the brass ring that is the end-all, be-all of this business. There will always be someone who has better gear than you, newer gear than you, more gear than you, or some combination of the three. There are very few people at the tippy top of our business, and I resigned myself many years ago to never having the possibility of being one of those people.
That said, there can eventually be an opportunity to have a comfortable living in this business, and to be able to enjoy working on some of the finest gear in the world, even if it's not the latest/greatest.
That is why this B console is interesting to me (to get back on topic). The increasing customer demand to go to digital consoles from analog has been a frustrating, confusing experience for me; the only customer demand for me is from a series that I do each summer that has nowhere near enough shows to justify the money required to be in the game at that level, and this series has evolved to the point where they are getting some pretty top acts (not stadium acts, but definitely arena/shed or almost arena) who are able to demand top level gear in all parts of the PA.
I've recently decided that I will never be able to please these people with my own consoles, as it seems that they all want a different digital console, and no way could I ever have more than two, if that, at the $30k each or similar level. This B console does not address that market, and fortunately I'm on good terms with many PA companies in my town who have almost every console that anyone would want, and are willing to rent to me. The fact that consoles are starting to look like computers, with today's latest/greatest being crap in 2-5 years is further distressing when spending $30k+.
What the B console could address, if it is reliable and sounds sufficiently good and is so cheap that EVERYONE has one, is the market of people who are familiar with it, have one of their own at home, and perhaps could be persuaded to accept it at this low key event or that one, because it will mostly do what they want. It's also at a price point where it would not be a big deal to have several, to have at all the stages of a festival, for example (different gigs than described above). Plus one or more spares if when it inevitably has problems it has to be gone for a few weeks.
That is where I think it could have value.
As I've said more than once already, I am willing, based on the reports here and in the other forum, to put hope above experience (of others) with that brand and hope that it turns out to be what is being said about it.
And I will cop to having made more than one multi-thousand dollar mistake in my purchases over the years; while not necessarily proud of having done so, sometimes you need to view life as a kind of university, and there comes a time when you need to pay some tuition to have the experience to learn from. However, I will not be one of the first purchasers of this product, and will avidly consume reports by others of their University of Life class in budget digital consoles.
Regarding your size from where I sit, while I don't know you, I ASSume from the phrasing of your question and the subsequent sentences that you are someplace I have already been and lived in for a while, and I will be just as interested in reading your reports of your experiences as those of anyone else. FWIW, I read Dave Rat's marvelous educational efforts (for example) and realize what a little, ignorant peanut I am in the scheme of things.
Good luck to you, hope this helps.
Dan
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Hi Troy,
Taking your facetious question seriously: it's funny, I was talking about this subject you are alluding to (before I saw your post) today with a guy who has been with me coming up on 30 years. We agreed that it's amazing the tools we have available to us today that either didn't exist 30 years ago, or you had to try to build it yourself, or it cost tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars and was only a fraction as capable as what we take almost for granted today.
Then, we could only dream of a PA that could more than adequately cover a couple thousand people that would fit in a van, and have all pieces that could be moved if not lifted by one guy, and have a quality of output that rivals the best studio monitors along with more power than we could dream about, with either lightweight amps or no external amps at all.
I did a show by myself a couple weeks ago in a parking lot with three fairly loud alternative rock bands. I took 1 Meyer UPJ-1P per side, and one Meyer USW-1P per side, and that was PLENTY of volume in that situation (City ordinance limiting to 95 dbA at 50' averaged over a minute). That system was not even close to its limit, which was unbelievable to a mindset from 30+ years ago, which I often have.
The funny thing about this business is that if you stay with it long enough (can get through the many crappy years, when money is no good, gigs are no good or not enough, etc.), and get quality gear as you go along, after some time you will have a considerable quantity of really decent gear that performs adequately or more so, and you can continue to build on your strengths rather than keeping playing catch-up.
OTOH, in my experience, you never really get to the brass ring that is the end-all, be-all of this business. There will always be someone who has better gear than you, newer gear than you, more gear than you, or some combination of the three. There are very few people at the tippy top of our business, and I resigned myself many years ago to never having the possibility of being one of those people.
That said, there can eventually be an opportunity to have a comfortable living in this business, and to be able to enjoy working on some of the finest gear in the world, even if it's not the latest/greatest.
That is why this B console is interesting to me (to get back on topic). The increasing customer demand to go to digital consoles from analog has been a frustrating, confusing experience for me; the only customer demand for me is from a series that I do each summer that has nowhere near enough shows to justify the money required to be in the game at that level, and this series has evolved to the point where they are getting some pretty top acts (not stadium acts, but definitely arena/shed or almost arena) who are able to demand top level gear in all parts of the PA.
I've recently decided that I will never be able to please these people with my own consoles, as it seems that they all want a different digital console, and no way could I ever have more than two, if that, at the $30k each or similar level. This B console does not address that market, and fortunately I'm on good terms with many PA companies in my town who have almost every console that anyone would want, and are willing to rent to me. The fact that consoles are starting to look like computers, with today's latest/greatest being crap in 2-5 years is further distressing when spending $30k+.
What the B console could address, if it is reliable and sounds sufficiently good and is so cheap that EVERYONE has one, is the market of people who are familiar with it, have one of their own at home, and perhaps could be persuaded to accept it at this low key event or that one, because it will mostly do what they want. It's also at a price point where it would not be a big deal to have several, to have at all the stages of a festival, for example (different gigs than described above). Plus one or more spares if when it inevitably has problems it has to be gone for a few weeks.
That is where I think it could have value.
As I've said more than once already, I am willing, based on the reports here and in the other forum, to put hope above experience (of others) with that brand and hope that it turns out to be what is being said about it.
And I will cop to having made more than one multi-thousand dollar mistake in my purchases over the years; while not necessarily proud of having done so, sometimes you need to view life as a kind of university, and there comes a time when you need to pay some tuition to have the experience to learn from. However, I will not be one of the first purchasers of this product, and will avidly consume reports by others of their University of Life class in budget digital consoles.
Regarding your size from where I sit, while I don't know you, I ASSume from the phrasing of your question and the subsequent sentences that you are someplace I have already been and lived in for a while, and I will be just as interested in reading your reports of your experiences as those of anyone else. FWIW, I read Dave Rat's marvelous educational efforts (for example) and realize what a little, ignorant peanut I am in the scheme of things.
Good luck to you, hope this helps.
Dan
Very well said, Dan.
No matter where you sit (or stand) in this business, there's always someone with more experience, better gear, and better skill sets that you admire and try to learn from. In 99 out of 100 cases, you are that person to someone else.
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What the B console could address, if it is reliable and sounds sufficiently good and is so cheap that EVERYONE has one, is the market of people who are familiar with it, have one of their own at home, and perhaps could be persuaded to accept it at this low key event or that one, because it will mostly do what they want. It's also at a price point where it would not be a big deal to have several, to have at all the stages of a festival, for example (different gigs than described above). Plus one or more spares if when it inevitably has problems it has to be gone for a few weeks.
"and realize what a little, ignorant peanut I am in the scheme of things."
Good luck to you, hope this helps.
Dan
Dan,
There are plenty of peanuts in this business at every level, and I decided over 40 years ago that being a peanut was just fine by me. It doesn't matter to me one way or the other if I'm part of the rich and creamy spread or chunky style because eventually we're all part of the same sandwich.
I carry spares for everything and it's not the thought that I may need a spare, but rather the manufacturer's (current) reputation tells me I will need a spare. Perhaps I'll be proven wrong, but only time will tell. For now I'll play the devils advocate and think that perhaps with the aquisition of Midas and other well respected names Behringer has decided to turn a new page in the company's history. Surely some of the Midas quality has to rub off onto Behringer, and it could be percieved that the Midas rep could also suffer if the product turns out to be unreliable. Let's move ahead knowing every product manufactured by a company won't be the best, but that not all are the worst.
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This brand has enough history than many experienced equipment buyers are apprehensive. Uli has publicly announced that this time will be different. He deserves the opportunity to show all his skeptics that product and support are improved.
I am content to take a wait and see attitude but I am no longer in these trenches. The passions aroused by this product suggest (to me) it will be disruptive to the status quo if it delivers on all promises.
Interesting times, but maybe we should just take a deep breath and wait a little longer for user reports from early adopters who don't have such reservations. We'll hear more hands-on experiences soon enough.
JR
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What's the view like from way up there? I ASSume we must all look tiny. Insignificant even.
Considering that this thread was originally in the 'big boy' forum... Hell, we probably spend more money on casters and ramps than some of you spent on your systems, but that doesn't mean this is about snobbery. We still carry a spare I-Tech around; hey, that was about $3000 new. We carry a spare mixer and i/o, that's about $2,500 for 20 inputs. Our big analog desks had redundant PSUs and automatic switchers and that combo was about $4,000 per desk.
At the regional and national level, that is what you do even if you've never had a failure. It's not a case of "looking down" on operations that have different needs, different customer demands, etc. The markets that regionals and nationals service won't accept the X32 to start with. I'm looking at this mixer mostly from an academic standpoint, but have identified a couple of potential clients that we might get if I can make the price of our service meet their budgets.
In our case having a back up X32 in the shop or on the truck might make sense: a pair of these is still cheaper than a DM1000 with extra i/o or an LS9/32. If I can package the right gear so that 1 guy can set it up and run it, I have a new market segment that won't cannibalize our current rates or client list.
Making sound is easy, making a profit from making sound is another matter.
Have fun, good luck.
Tim Mc
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I like to think of myself as a cashew instead of a peanut, but even at my lowly level of status I won't leave home without a spare board and amp!
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Considering that this thread was originally in the 'big boy' forum... Hell, we probably spend more money on casters and ramps than some of you spent on your systems, but that doesn't mean this is about snobbery. We still carry a spare I-Tech around; hey, that was about $3000 new. We carry a spare mixer and i/o, that's about $2,500 for 20 inputs. Our big analog desks had redundant PSUs and automatic switchers and that combo was about $4,000 per desk.
At the regional and national level, that is what you do even if you've never had a failure. It's not a case of "looking down" on operations that have different needs, different customer demands, etc. The markets that regionals and nationals service won't accept the X32 to start with. I'm looking at this mixer mostly from an academic standpoint, but have identified a couple of potential clients that we might get if I can make the price of our service meet their budgets.
In our case having a back up X32 in the shop or on the truck might make sense: a pair of these is still cheaper than a DM1000 with extra i/o or an LS9/32. If I can package the right gear so that 1 guy can set it up and run it, I have a new market segment that won't cannibalize our current rates or client list.
Making sound is easy, making a profit from making sound is another matter.
Have fun, good luck.
Tim Mc
Well Mr. Tim, another pearl of wisdom. I have to agree with everything said but just want to be a little more clear, and then I'm done with the beating. This board will be a game changer. You and I both know that, and for better or worse, depending on the long term reliability, this board and all of it's spawn are here to stay. The only bad taste left in my mouth is this nagging feeling that beyond all doubt I will need to carry a spare, not because it might fail, but because it will fail. I'm hoping I'm wrong, but I like you will wait and see.
Don't get me wrong though because having spares for critical components is a practice I follow regardless of the manufacturer or thier reputation. It's a part of any good business model regardless of product type, and it's a practice that's saved my ass on more than one occasion.
I had hoped that Uli would have adopted a better service plan for this board, not only due to the nature of the beast, but as part of his "re-launch", and chance to show the world he means what he says.
There are many types of SLA. Return to vendor, parts only, NBD, and the best of the best, a 4 hour SLA which includes POS within 2 hours, call back within 15 minutes and engineer on site within 4. Anything can be done as long as you're willing to pay, so let's pretend that I have a 4hr contract that cost me $1000 per year. I'm OK with that because it means that if the system fails it's fixed in 4 hours. That won't stop me from carrying some type of backup device, but it would certainly help me sleep at night knowing I didn't have to send away to Battle Creek Michigan for my encoder ring.
OK, enough of that shit, let's just wait and see what happens, because as we all know, time will tell.
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I really really hate to play this game, its sounds a tad childish but unfortunately facts are facts. We just got back a pair of Microtech 2400 that we had on loan to a club for three months while they're amps were sent off to Crown for repair, unfortunately if we are going to point fingers, Uli isn't the only one who should have to worry.
On the flip side, we also have a few of the older PMP1280s and the newer 1680 in rental that have been getting tossed around while doing dry rentals that have yet to give us a single problem, hell they've held as well or even better than many other so called "reputable" brands that I've had experience with (Soundcraft, Yorkville, Peavey). From a business standpoint, those old 1280s have given us a fantastic ROI.
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I would say that the digico stuff is very buggy but the staff are helpful and knowledgable and are happy to buy the beers.
Can you imagine, a digico branded USB stick crashing a digico console?! But people are still happy to spec them.
Avid has poor build quality but again, the support is helpful.
Not necessarily that support will fix your problem or ship you parts for free, just that they answer calls and emails and talk to you on the same level.
All behringer have to do it employ 5 guys who will travel around to gigs with a couple of mixers and some spare parts, a phone and a laptop, authority to give "freebies" and enough cash for beer and behringer will be on par with any other manufacturer.
I saw about 3-4 high profile bands in the last week touring with a Midas "pro" system on stage. To me they do look very "fisher price".
Now seriously, a band could come to you now and ask for a similar service and you could spend the money where it counts, on stage cabling, flightcases, mics, coffee machines etc, and have left over for a console and a spare!
The only thing is if there is a major design flaw, that we will only know about in a year or so. Something like whenever you use generator power then the gates do not work.
But otherwise, is this not something that we could be taking advantage of? The other day I saw an SD11 being used bare, just sitting on a table, with a couple of single XLRs hanging out the back. How much does one of them cost? You could get an X32 with a proper case (with decent dogbox!) and a full stage calling system and maybe a bit left over for yourself!
Sometimes you feel bad about the behringer design copying. He has kind of acknowledged, and sort of justified himself on this which I think is a bit low. And yeah, behringer make some shit things. But avid and soundcraft and Klark teknik and everyone makes shit products!
But then sometimes you have to say "ah fuckit". The tools are cheaper so we can do the same job and quote the same and take more money home or put more money into crucial infrastructure.
I hope to see in a year or two someone mixing FOH on a super high profile event next to another guy with a digico and they have both quoted the same amount for the gig and both shows sound equally "good" yet one guy has more new mics on stage or a faster car parked outside and neither of them have any crashes!
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The fact that consoles are starting to look like computers, with today's latest/greatest being crap in 2-5 years is further distressing when spending $30k+.
Overall that was a great post but high end digital consoles certainly have a longer shelf life than that. The entire Avid venue line is all over 2 years old (D-Show is roughly 7 years old now?) and still considered among the top of the line digital consoles for the most part.
PM5D's and M7's are getting up there in years too and Yamaha has a newer line of digital consoles but no one is calling those crap either.
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I can't believe I read the whole thing.... :D
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I gotta' say, $4500.00 for this board & two of their 16 channel snake heads is very attractive to someone like myself......
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Surely some of the Midas quality has to rub off onto Behringer, and it could be percieved that the Midas rep could also suffer if the product turns out to be unreliable.
Just to speak on this point, I think that it is very possible that the Midas reputation could suffer without any real reason, just through perception.
I heard some VERY strong anecdotal reports from other engineers in my area that the original Pro6, when first launched, had a lot of problems, especially with the screens failing or being unreliable. I also know a sound co. close to me who purchased one of the original demo Pro6s to both get in early on the console and get a leg up and also get a discount on the price. They also had a few issues.
In all cases it wasn't big news. Midas sorted things out, tidied up a few possible problems in manufacturing/quality control and everything was fine. The perception of what happened was that yeah these things happen, new products and new technology, but Midas made everyone right and all is fine now.
However if this same thing was to happen today, I think it'd be very different. Even if they had the same problems now, for the exact same reasons, in the exact same manufacturing plants, people would instantly cry "ooooooooo, see that's because its now Behringer running them" and they would take a severe hit on their reputation. The problem wouldn't have been any different and would have happened anyway, but the perception of the problem would have been totally different.
Now, I'm not defending Behringer at all here as such, they have had significant problems in the past with quality. It's strangely pot luck too, they can have some products that actually work very well and stand up to the test of time (some compressors for example, or their digital crossover outside of the first few runs where they had a problem with a serial cable), while others are notoriously unreliable.
However a large part of their problem to me has always just been the sheer volume of product they shift. A one percent problem rate for them is thousands of units and so thousands of people on online forums and websites complaining of problems and looking for solutions. And these people are probably taking less care of their gear in the first place as well, having it bounce around the boot of their car or stored in their damp shed or dusty attic.
The same percentage rate for another brand will be FAR smaller, and also they will be far less likely to be online complaining about it. If you have a problem with a large midas/soundcraft/yamy/avid/digico you call them up, sort it as best you can and have a funny story to tell afterwards about how you managed to get round the problem and keep the show running.
Anyway i'm of the same opinion of a lot of other people, wait and see. We can all speculate on the product and rehash the problems with Behringers reputation until the cows come home but hopefully as Uli says they're turning a new chapter now and things'll be better.
k
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Just to speak on this point, I think that it is very possible that the Midas reputation could suffer without any real reason, just through perception.
For brand management, perception is reality. The fact that they were purchased by a larger company changes one aspect of their perceived identity, and the reality that there is a new sheriff in town calling the shots, means the corporate personality has actually changed. How much and for better or worse depends on your perspective. Time will tell how the reality impacts the marketplace.
I heard some VERY strong anecdotal reports from other engineers in my area that the original Pro6, when first launched, had a lot of problems, especially with the screens failing or being unreliable. I also know a sound co. close to me who purchased one of the original demo Pro6s to both get in early on the console and get a leg up and also get a discount on the price. They also had a few issues.
It is pretty common for new products using new technology for a company to experience start up issues. How a company handles such things is as important or more so than them happening in the first place.
In all cases it wasn't big news. Midas sorted things out, tidied up a few possible problems in manufacturing/quality control and everything was fine. The perception of what happened was that yeah these things happen, new products and new technology, but Midas made everyone right and all is fine now.
However if this same thing was to happen today, I think it'd be very different. Even if they had the same problems now, for the exact same reasons, in the exact same manufacturing plants, people would instantly cry "ooooooooo, see that's because its now Behringer running them" and they would take a severe hit on their reputation. The problem wouldn't have been any different and would have happened anyway, but the perception of the problem would have been totally different.
Perhaps, but the takeover has caused real changes in manufacturing and sourcing materials. Again for better or worse. Midas product costing more to build the old way did not really benefit their old customers.
Now, I'm not defending Behringer at all here as such, they have had significant problems in the past with quality. It's strangely pot luck too, they can have some products that actually work very well and stand up to the test of time (some compressors for example, or their digital crossover outside of the first few runs where they had a problem with a serial cable), while others are notoriously unreliable.
Perhaps pot luck to the customer, but significant reliability patterns are strongly correlated with design, process control, components, etc. Not random at all.
However a large part of their problem to me has always just been the sheer volume of product they shift. A one percent problem rate for them is thousands of units and so thousands of people on online forums and websites complaining of problems and looking for solutions. And these people are probably taking less care of their gear in the first place as well, having it bounce around the boot of their car or stored in their damp shed or dusty attic.
They aren't the first or only company to ever sell products in high volume. All companies will have product failures. How the customer views that service experience will very much depend on corporate policy. it is well known that unhappy customers tell more people about their bad experience, than happy customers do.
The same percentage rate for another brand will be FAR smaller, and also they will be far less likely to be online complaining about it. If you have a problem with a large midas/soundcraft/yamy/avid/digico you call them up, sort it as best you can and have a funny story to tell afterwards about how you managed to get round the problem and keep the show running.
Anyway i'm of the same opinion of a lot of other people, wait and see. We can all speculate on the product and rehash the problems with Behringers reputation until the cows come home but hopefully as Uli says they're turning a new chapter now and things'll be better.
k
Yes, the beat goes on... Uli has mounted a PR campaign and charm offensive and has influenced many people to look at his company differently. I fear I may be incorrigible, but that's how it is with old dogs and old tricks.
JR
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i've read this and all the X32 threads with great interest. and no one cares about my opinion. but i'm gonna share it anyway. :)
i've had and heard all the usual issues with Behringer. when i was in Pro Sound, i wouldn't use anything with their name on it. Now, that i am in Church Sound, i use their products quite a bit, for all the obvious reasons.
all that being said, i think that this desk really IS a game changer. for Behringer. i think Uli has finally amassed enough capital, both financial and intellectual, to get this right. and Uli is not a dumb guy. he has to know that getting this wrong is NOT an option for his company to move forward.
all the delays in bringing this thing to market just bear this out. it has to have cost many millions of dollars at this point to bring this thing to market. and the delays have had to add a great deal to that number. not to mention the beating that Behringer has taken as a result of the delays. but still they've held firm and waited to get this thing really right before bringing it out. frankly, i'm not sure at this point how many units they will have to sell to recoup their investment. i don't think that's ever been the point. i think the ROI Uli is looking for has nothing to do with the money he'll make selling these consoles and everything to do with the perception of his company going forward.
bottom line, this product is a gamble for the future of TMG. and i think it's gonna pay off. i think in 10 years all of us dinosaurs talking about how Behringer was such a bane on Pro Sound will just be distant background noise. i'm not sure how i feel about that. but i do think i'm right...
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i've read this and all the X32 threads with great interest. and no one cares about my opinion. but i'm gonna share it anyway. :)
i've had and heard all the usual issues with Behringer. when i was in Pro Sound, i wouldn't use anything with their name on it. Now, that i am in Church Sound, i use their products quite a bit, for all the obvious reasons.
all that being said, i think that this desk really IS a game changer. for Behringer. i think Uli has finally amassed enough capital, both financial and intellectual, to get this right. and Uli is not a dumb guy. he has to know that getting this wrong is NOT an option for his company to move forward.
all the delays in bringing this thing to market just bear this out. it has to have cost many millions of dollars at this point to bring this thing to market. and the delays have had to add a great deal to that number. not to mention the beating that Behringer has taken as a result of the delays. but still they've held firm and waited to get this thing really right before bringing it out. frankly, i'm not sure at this point how many units they will have to sell to recoup their investment. i don't think that's ever been the point. i think the ROI Uli is looking for has nothing to do with the money he'll make selling these consoles and everything to do with the perception of his company going forward.
bottom line, this product is a gamble for the future of TMG. and i think it's gonna pay off. i think in 10 years all of us dinosaurs talking about how Behringer was such a bane on Pro Sound will just be distant background noise. i'm not sure how i feel about that. but i do think i'm right...
I agree Brian. It will take time for a lot of smaller guys to catch on, as most I know don't read forums like this and don't even know about the X32... They are all just jumping on the Presonus bandwagon. I just did a gig and the fact alone that the Studiolive doesn't have recallable preamps is gpnna bite someone at the next gig...especially with 6 IEM mixes affected!!
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They are all just jumping on the Presonus bandwagon. I just did a gig and the fact alone that the Studiolive doesn't have recallable preamps is gpnna bite someone at the next gig...especially with 6 IEM mixes affected!!
Neither my old 01v96v2 nor my current SL 24.4.2 have recallable head amps. That's inconvenient, but not a deal killer. It certainly hasn't stopped people from buying either product. We're still way ahead of where we'd be with any analog mixer.
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Neither my old 01v96v2 nor my current SL 24.4.2 have recallable head amps. That's inconvenient, but not a deal killer. It certainly hasn't stopped people from buying either product. We're still way ahead of where we'd be with any analog mixer.
lack of headamp recall is a major issue on multi-act dates with sound checks. i remember when the first PM5d came out without them and we all just shook our heads in dismay.
but for most single act gigs, it's just not a huge deal. i've used 01V96s a LOT. never really cried over the lack of recallable headamps.
what i DO find a huge deal is non-motorized faders on the presonus. i know it's an old debate, and i'm not trying to restir the pot. i just know for me that's a deal killer.
which maybe goes to the central point. a deal killer to you may be no big deal to me. and vis versa. i guess that's what makes life interesting... :)
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lack of headamp recall is a major issue on multi-act dates with sound checks. i remember when the first PM5d came out without them and we all just shook our heads in dismay.
but for most single act gigs, it's just not a huge deal. i've used 01V96s a LOT. never really cried over the lack of recallable headamps.
what i DO find a huge deal is non-motorized faders on the presonus. i know it's an old debate, and i'm not trying to restir the pot. i just know for me that's a deal killer.
which maybe goes to the central point. a deal killer to you may be no big deal to me. and vis versa. i guess that's what makes life interesting... :)
The lack of mute groups and VCAs is what really kept me from purchasing the 24.4.2. I use one regularly with the iPad app and the aforementioned groupings are what makes the iPad usage a little frustrating for me...along with the lack of certain metering when using the iPad.
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We're still way ahead of where we'd be with any analog mixer.
Not any, but most low cost analog mixers. ;)
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Not any, but most low cost analog mixers. ;)
What analog board(at any cost) has recallabel scenes, processing and effects for all channels and outputs, delay for sub groups, full meter bridge for all channels, etc. and can be controlled with an iPad?
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What analog board(at any cost) has recallabel scenes, processing and effects for all channels and outputs, delay for sub groups, full meter bridge for all channels, etc. and can be controlled with an iPad?
Which user has (or does not have) use for the above list?
No single piece of equipment will suffice in every conceivable situation. Except perhaps the SM58...........
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Which user has (or does not have) use for the above list?
No single piece of equipment will suffice in every conceivable situation. Except perhaps the SM58...........
Of course! My point is that no analog board comes even close to the features available in even the most basic digital board.
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Of course! My point is that no analog board comes even close to the features available in even the most basic digital board.
What good are bells and whistles if you don't need them?
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The statement was in comparison to the Presonus. If I compare my APB to the Presonus the only thing that stands out is the recall which I don't need. I'll sacrifice the recall on a board that doesn't have moterized faders for better sound quality and reliability. I hear and read enough about Presonus glitches but have no comment on thier reliability. I know for a fact the APB has much better sound without external effects or EQ than the Presonus, there are certainly no routing issues, reliability issues, quality issues or rider issues. And on top of that I work with a Dbx 480 and 260 which have any other needed EQ, limiter or compressor functions needed built in.
The APB has a variable high pass filter on every channel, a far better channel EQ, and more than enough routing capabilities for the board size. No thanks Chuck. I'll not jump on the look at me I have a digital board bandwagon just yet sacraficing quality sound for a software package. Exactly my reason for hoping the X32 works out. The boards I do like aren't out of my financial reach, but are more than I will use. The lower cost, and lower quality, boards aren't where they could be just yet. I expect the feature set and the cost of the X32 to change the small format market within the year, and when other manufacturers step up to the plate, that's when I'll consider going full digital. As for the Ipad I didn't have one 45 years ago, 5 years ago, or even 2 years ago. I'll get along without that "look at me too" also.
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As for the Ipad I didn't have on 45 years ago, 5 years ago, or even 2 years ago. I'll get along without that "look at me too" also.
Bingo.
I wonder how many folks are buying ipads and using them once or twice with the mixers so they can use the purchase as a business deduction?
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I know for a fact the APB has much better sound without external effects
No you don't. As more than one wise man here has said if you can hear it you can show it. With out emprical facts to back it up your statements concerning superior sound quality those statements are just opinions. And you are way off with your patronizing attitude if you think I and many others are just jumping on some" band wagon" and going for the "look at me too" factor. I have been doing sound for a long time and have used many fine analog boards. There are many logical reasons for making the move to digital and they have been discussed at length and it works for me If you don't feel the benefits of digital mixing apply to your needs, that's fine but that doesn't make you or your analog board somehow superior!
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No you don't. As more than one wise man here has said if you can hear it you can show it. With out emprical facts to back it up your statements concerning superior sound quality those statements are just opinions. And you are way off with your patronizing attitude if you think I and many others are just jumping on some" band wagon" and going for the "look at me too" factor. I have been doing sound for a long time and have used many fine analog boards. There are many logical reasons for making the move to digital and they have been discussed at length and it works for me If you don't feel the benefits of digital mixing apply to your needs, that's fine but that doesn't make you or your analog board somehow superior!
While I haven't done it, I'd bet my paycheck that you could easily measure the difference between an APB desk and a Presonus SL.
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No you don't. As more than one wise man here has said if you can hear it you can show it. With out emprical facts to back it up your statements concerning superior sound quality those statements are just opinions. And you are way off with your patronizing attitude if you think I and many others are just jumping on some" band wagon" and going for the "look at me too" factor. I have been doing sound for a long time and have used many fine analog boards. There are many logical reasons for making the move to digital and they have been discussed at length and it works for me If you don't feel the benefits of digital mixing apply to your needs, that's fine but that doesn't make you or your analog board somehow superior!
If I have to do serious sound, I take out my Midas desk and my good analog rack. If I need convenience over quality, I take a "digital work box". It all depends on priorities and logistics.
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No you don't. As more than one wise man here has said if you can hear it you can show it. With out emprical facts to back it up your statements concerning superior sound quality those statements are just opinions. And you are way off with your patronizing attitude if you think I and many others are just jumping on some" band wagon" and going for the "look at me too" factor. I have been doing sound for a long time and have used many fine analog boards. There are many logical reasons for making the move to digital and they have been discussed at length and it works for me If you don't feel the benefits of digital mixing apply to your needs, that's fine but that doesn't make you or your analog board somehow superior!
I've not been in a position to do measurements between these 2 mixers, but I have used both and would take the APB over the Presonus based on sound quality and ergonomics.
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While I haven't done it, I'd bet my paycheck that you could easily measure the difference between an APB desk and a Presonus .
I would love to see those measurements. I really don't know if one is superior to the other but without factual evidence I have no reason to believe either way. There is no shortage of people who claim one board sounds better than another but there seems to be a severe lack of real evidence.
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No you don't. As more than one wise man here has said if you can hear it you can show it. With out emprical facts to back it up your statements concerning superior sound quality those statements are just opinions. And you are way off with your patronizing attitude if you think I and many others are just jumping on some" band wagon" and going for the "look at me too" factor. I have been doing sound for a long time and have used many fine analog boards. There are many logical reasons for making the move to digital and they have been discussed at length and it works for me If you don't feel the benefits of digital mixing apply to your needs, that's fine but that doesn't make you or your analog board somehow superior!
Chuck,
Your off base if you think I feel superior to the good people of this board. We all have something to give, and we all have something to learn. You're also off base if you think low THD is the answer to all prayers sonic. I have a basement full of test equipment and the engineering knowledge to go along with it and in the event you're not aware, and that seems to be the case, a clean signal path is not the sole determining factor used for evaluating a boards capabilities. There are countless other factors to consider such as channel summing and headroom, intermod, crosstalk, noise floor, component quality and type and on and on, and then of course there will always be your ears. All the thousands of factors combined make for a great board and the final test is not the specs on a piece of paper.
I have compared the APB boards to at least a dozen quality digital boards and until you reach the $25-30K plateu the sound quality of a majority of digital boards won't come close. And to further qualify that statement this is not just my opinion but that of every end user I have spoken to in over a year backed by countless unbiased reviews. I can point you to reviews of the Pro House that compare the sound quality of that board to some of the best outboard gear, including Neve, so I would have to ask if you've ever heard an APB board for surely if you had you would also have to admit to APBs superior sound quality.
As for jumping on band wagons, at the club level few people need a full digital feature set, especially those who have yet mastered the basics of a crossover, compressor or EQ. You and other members of this site may well be the exception, but that is seldom the case with the rest of the world.And the Ipad? You need an Ipad for a 50' by 50' club? That's just bullshit. Even for 500-1000 people it might be a big maybe.
Scene recall. Seems like the pros below didn't have any issues at all;
"The Spectra-Ti is APB's high end analog console with VCA control on inputs and outputs, mono/stereo/3-speaker LCR monitoring, 10 aux sends, and versatile output and matrixing capabilities. Each of the four bands on the EQ section is sweepable.
In addition to setting up, tearing down, and often mixing six bands per day, the crew of HBO's hit show, "Treme", was at the stage with four cameras shooting footage for future episodes. A submixed 2-track feed was provided by Soundchek via the APB console at FOH.
This was analog console mixing at its fullest-no flash drives here. Being able to look at faders and knobs in real time was an advantage.
Brown, who has a 32 year history at Jazzfest stated, "This stage is not that big and many of the acts have lots of players, instrumentation and gear. Getting the previous band off the stage quickly is the challenge. There is no sound check and the person mixing has half a song to get it right. In these conditions with this variety of acts, digital consoles can actually slow things down. Also, the dynamics run from quiet acoustic performances to full-on Zydeco, which can be deafening at times. Visiting sound mixers appreciated being able to quickly and easily see what was going on with faders and knobs." Montaro, once he caught his breath, says, "It was nothing but happy people!"
I can certainly appreciate a good digital board, but at some point you have to admit that every board will have it's plus or minus points, and every board will have a place in this world. There is and never will be one board that fits all.
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I would love to see those measurements. I really don't know if one is superior to the other but without factual evidence I have no reason to believe either way. There is no shortage of people who claim one board sounds better than another but there seems to be a severe lack of real evidence.
Having designed consoles myself, and being a friend to AP&B I have an opinion.
There are many factors involved (Tim hinted at this with ergonomics) but things that lead to good results that don''t show up in bench measurements, but do in use. Everybody had access to the same opamps and modern quality components, but there remain subtle differences in how these parts get put together for a superior result.
I'm not sure exactly why this thread is the lightning rod for a new review of the very old A vs D debate. I suspect we will see prices continue to drop for digital technology, so more of this type market tension.
It seems to me that there is room for a similar superior execution or less than superior execution for any modern technology.
JR
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Neither my old 01v96v2 nor my current SL 24.4.2 have recallable head amps. That's inconvenient, but not a deal killer. It certainly hasn't stopped people from buying either product. We're still way ahead of where we'd be with any analog mixer.
I would suppose John that I took exception to the blanket statement above. Back to regular programing and my apology for the thread swerve.
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"you talking to me..." (delivered in my best Taxi driver- Dinero imitation ).
Don't apologize to me... I am little weary of hearing speculation and hypotheticals about Behringer and the X32.. We'll find out soon enough.
I have long been intellectually curious about the magic secret sauce that makes otherwise similar (on the bench) products, appear to sound different in use.
Not a short list...
JR
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The funny thing is I don't think I really have much to argue about, but really, how many times have you heard claims about one board sounding better than another without any real evidence other than opinion. I agree about the ergomonics. I am physically much more comfortable on a good analog board, but the features and convienience of digital boards have me convinced I will never go back.
You need an Ipad for a 50' by 50' club? That's just bullshit. Even for 500-1000 people it might be a big maybe.
I think you are missing the point of the iPad app. With it I can eliminate about 400 lbs of anolog console, effects racks and multichanel snake. I can leave my board on the wings of the stage and control the mix anywhere in the room. That's not "bullshit". For me it is a sensible business decision that cuts down on my set up and tear down time and helps save my ageing back!
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The funny thing is I don't think I really have much to argue about, but really, how many times have you heard claims about one board sounding better than another without any real evidence other than opinion. I agree about the ergomonics. I am physically much more comfortable on a good analog board, but the features and convienience of digital boards have me convinced I will never go back.
I think you are missing the point of the iPad app. With it I can eliminate about 400 lbs of anolog console, effects racks and multichanel snake. I can leave my board on the wings of the stage and control the mix anywhere in the room. That's not "bullshit". For me it is a sensible business decision that cuts down on my set up and tear down time and helps save my ageing back!
I agree. For me, pushing the limits of pricing for smaller local gigs.. the iPad/digital scenario gives me real mix capability at say a high end corporate event or wedding.
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The funny thing is I don't think I really have much to argue about, but really, how many times have you heard claims about one board sounding better than another without any real evidence other than opinion. I agree about the ergomonics. I am physically much more comfortable on a good analog board, but the features and convienience of digital boards have me convinced I will never go back.
I escaped from the hifi side because of all the smoke and mirrors (and BS), but how many people can a well respected brand hypnotize into believing their consoles sound different, if they aren't actually different in some way?
When there is a preponderance of credible user endorsements saying this brand console made an audible improvement compared to my old XYZ board, maybe there is some "there" there.
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Now the difference between digital flexibility and feature capability VS analog is an unfair comparison. I am reminded of John Henry vs the steam hammer... Superior technology always wins (or it wouldn't be very superior).
I recall the installers who didn't want to have anything to do with Peavey, but they had no choice because Mediamatrix literally replaced rooms full of rack efx and miles of wiring. They didn't have much choice (not a fair fight).
The same will happen eventually with digital console technology delivering compelling features that just can not be ignored, no matter how well executed an analog desk is that lacks those features.
I think you are missing the point of the iPad app. With it I can eliminate about 400 lbs of anolog console, effects racks and multichanel snake. I can leave my board on the wings of the stage and control the mix anywhere in the room. That's not "bullshit". For me it is a sensible business decision that cuts down on my set up and tear down time and helps save my ageing back!
I am still looking forward to being able to mix from my living room, or maybe from Bangalore? Well not me personally, you guys...
JR
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Well, I have stayed out of, this for the most part but a real world example may be of interest.
Replacing my analog rig (I already had a 01v96) with an LS9 opened up actual gigs for me. I had a competitive advantage for weddings where the console had to placed out of sight. With my tablet (it is a pc but an iPad is just another os) I could stand with the performers and set monitors the walk out front and dial in levels and a mix.
With the old rig I either could not have fit it, or had to use an inferior setup and would have had to keep running back and forth to make adjustments. There would have been no way to make mix changes on the fly (think feedback and levels while the dad gives his toasts).
It is nice to skip the snake and outboard gear and cables too. Heck, I have not used my big snake for 2 years now. I plan to sell it as soon as I get a desk with remote stage box.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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Now the difference between digital flexibility and feature capability VS analog is an unfair comparison. I am reminded of John Henry vs the steam hammer... Superior technology always wins (or it wouldn't be very superior).
I was musing on this same comparison and I started wondering which of the two John Henry's wife would prefer........all things considered.........
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Of course! My point is that no analog board comes even close to the features available in even the most basic digital board.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS178hiyS60&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL7997FF580CF2B24A
Granted, he's likely 100% sponsored but his comment that a maxxed out Midas XL4 with 12 (:O) outboard racks was the bare minimum starting point when turning on the XL8 says a lot.
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If I have to do serious sound, I take out my Midas desk and my good analog rack. If I need convenience over quality, I take a "digital work box". It all depends on priorities and logistics.
And some of us own digital work boxes that sound good! :)
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And some of us own digital work boxes that sound good! :)
...for what you're doing........
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...for what you're doing........
And some people have a real use for remote mixing with an Ipad.
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For some of us, jumping on the bandwagon has nothing to do with finding some nirvana of sonic perfection, and all to do with finding the right tool for the job.
When doing a show that consist of 15 to 20 performances all with different combinations of performers, varying style of music etc. the total recall of a digital board is the difference between what is essensially wasted soundchecks and a performance where each number can be fine-tuned at the soundcheck.
Having a remote option means you can actually do the job properly in those occasions where a (properly located) FOH is out of the question.
Doing a trio of fine musicians for an evening performance in a good location where it is all about sonic perfection, then obviously a small Neve or what have you would be the perfect thing to have along with the most ridiculously expensive ribbons and 2" condensers and some mains to do the signal chain justice. Even doing most bands, where you soundcheck and just tweak some during the show, an analogue desk is just fine.
Me, I want the multifunction tool that enables me to do a decent job, sonic nirvana is not for me, couldn't get there even with the right equipment.
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...for what you're doing........
I think both my DM 2000 and PM1D would live up to the sound quality requirements of your clients, being that they regularly are used for broadcasts seen/listened to by m_a_n_y_ people...
What Midas are you talking about anyway, your Venice?
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I think both my DM 2000 and PM1D would live up to the sound quality requirements of your clients, being that they regularly are used for broadcasts seen/listened to by m_a_n_y_ people...
What Midas are you talking about anyway, your Venice?
Yes. With 4 channels of tube pre's for special use.
I understand the advantages of the DM2000. It is a venerable broadcast console with a long track record and likely used well into the future. But when balancing functionality, musicality and cost there are still times when I'll go totally analog.
I'm not going to get into a debate on the quality of broadcast audio, especially with someone who lives and works in a country whose broadcast audio standards are so much higher than over here..........
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Yes. With 4 channels of tube pre's for special use.
I understand the advantages of the DM2000. It is a venerable broadcast console with a long track record and likely used well into the future. But when balancing functionality, musicality and cost there are still times when I'll go totally analog.
I'm not going to get into a debate on the quality of broadcast audio, especially with someone who lives and works in a country whose broadcast audio standards are so much higher than over here..........
Some of the techs who freelance for my company are studying to become broadcast techs for the national broadcaster (NRK). I'm sometimes suprised at the skillsets they are expected to develop in the 3-4 years they are in school. On the other hand, I'm also suprised at some of the simple stuff they don't learn... I guess it's school, afterall...
I always liked the Venice as a whole, but can't quite understand the reasoning behind the strange naming/layout with regards to the AUX's.
One club in town has a 32 (or is it really 24) channel version (there's another strange decision in regards to labelling).
Usually I'll bring in one of my 01v96 mixers there. While one tech is working away on the Venice I'll set up "my band" on the Yamaha without having to do the "I'll use that/you'll use that/we'll share this/fight over that"-debate with the other tech.
Even if the Venice sounds a lot better than the Yamaha per definition, the overall sound is a lot better for both parties due to not having to share stuff and due to some of the features I'd be missing out on with the analog setup they have.
Analog can be very hands-on and fun as well as practical to mix on, but I always seem to have some sort of "issue" throughout the day with a mislabelled cable, an insert that got plugged into a pre out jack or a piece of outboard gear that has grossly mismatched meters as compared to the desk itself. Just small stuff that adds up on a busy day.
The idea that analog is always better-sounding and that digital is always more practical is of course seeing the world with no shades of gray, and that is my point.
For more "involved" mixing I love the features of digital. Features that would require A LOT of expensive outboard gear. If the mixers sounded like crap it wouldn't be worth it, though.
For a "run up to the console and make sound" type gig analog has many benefits, but I'd still prefer one of MY digitals as I'm more proficient on those than on a unfamiliar analog setup - and I ALSO get all that "outboard" built in!
On a gig like that, if I had the choice between any old random analog mixer or any old random digital mixer I'd probably feel safer on the familiar and trusty analog.
For multiband gigs WITH soundcheck for each band there is no contest, digital wins hands down: Before I used to "move over" most shared mics to unused strips further to the right on the desk. 40 channels went by surprisingly quickly and drums would almost always be shared and therefore some sort of compromise reached as to not screw up too many settings that the headliner that sounchecked first may have demanded.
With digital I can do all the funny stuff in the world for each band during soundcheck and just recall as the night goes by. Even on a desk with no gain recall I'm ahead of analog as I can always gain conservatively and use digital makeup gain in a pinch, or write down the preamp settings, which is a lot less to write down than a whole desk, or even just the 8-12 channels used for drums for that matter.
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For the record there is no theoretical limitation to digital path fidelity.
While in practice results vary...
JR
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Some of the techs who freelance for my company are studying to become broadcast techs for the national broadcaster (NRK). I'm sometimes suprised at the skillsets they are expected to develop in the 3-4 years they are in school. On the other hand, I'm also suprised at some of the simple stuff they don't learn... I guess it's school, afterall...
I always liked the Venice as a whole, but can't quite understand the reasoning behind the strange naming/layout with regards to the AUX's.
One club in town has a 32 (or is it really 24) channel version (there's another strange decision in regards to labelling).
Usually I'll bring in one of my 01v96 mixers there. While one tech is working away on the Venice I'll set up "my band" on the Yamaha without having to do the "I'll use that/you'll use that/we'll share this/fight over that"-debate with the other tech.
Even if the Venice sounds a lot better than the Yamaha per definition, the overall sound is a lot better for both parties due to not having to share stuff and due to some of the features I'd be missing out on with the analog setup they have.
Analog can be very hands-on and fun as well as practical to mix on, but I always seem to have some sort of "issue" throughout the day with a mislabelled cable, an insert that got plugged into a pre out jack or a piece of outboard gear that has grossly mismatched meters as compared to the desk itself. Just small stuff that adds up on a busy day.
The idea that analog is always better-sounding and that digital is always more practical is of course seeing the world with no shades of gray, and that is my point.
For more "involved" mixing I love the features of digital. Features that would require A LOT of expensive outboard gear. If the mixers sounded like crap it wouldn't be worth it, though.
For a "run up to the console and make sound" type gig analog has many benefits, but I'd still prefer one of MY digitals as I'm more proficient on those than on a unfamiliar analog setup - and I ALSO get all that "outboard" built in!
On a gig like that, if I had the choice between any old random analog mixer or any old random digital mixer I'd probably feel safer on the familiar and trusty analog.
For multiband gigs WITH soundcheck for each band there is no contest, digital wins hands down: Before I used to "move over" most shared mics to unused strips further to the right on the desk. 40 channels went by surprisingly quickly and drums would almost always be shared and therefore some sort of compromise reached as to not screw up too many settings that the headliner that sounchecked first may have demanded.
With digital I can do all the funny stuff in the world for each band during soundcheck and just recall as the night goes by. Even on a desk with no gain recall I'm ahead of analog as I can always gain conservatively and use digital makeup gain in a pinch, or write down the preamp settings, which is a lot less to write down than a whole desk, or even just the 8-12 channels used for drums for that matter.
That was a nice post Kristian, best summed by your statement below which could not be more precise, and it is a statement to which I agree 100%.
"The idea that analog is always better-sounding and that digital is always more practical is of course seeing the world with no shades of gray, and that is my point."
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The idea that analog is always better-sounding and that digital is always more practical is of course seeing the world with no shades of gray, and that is my point.
I didn't mean to imply the above as a rule for everyone, just to say that it depends on the situation and individual preference. The analogy I would make is to compare the preference of (mixing) tools to the choice an instrumentalist makes. I could play a Les Paul, a Telecaster, a D-28 or my old Harmony Sovereign. For my own enjoyment I'll stick to the Sovereign. It's what feels right to me.
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I always liked the Venice as a whole, but can't quite understand the reasoning behind the strange naming/layout with regards to the AUX's.
One club in town has a 32 (or is it really 24) channel version (there's another strange decision in regards to labelling).
Not to mention the lack of pads and the absurd location of the phantom power button, and the direct out default setting of post fader. A few of them in my experience will literally squeal (oscillate) if you boost a mid/hi mid frequency too much. Aside from that issue I do like the way the EQ responds.
This is the board I've used most often in my house gigs over the years.
Yes it sounds fine, but no I would not choose it over an LS9 or digital equivalent (including the X32 if it proves worthy over time) for any situation I can think of.
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I didn't mean to imply the above as a rule for everyone, just to say that it depends on the situation and individual preference. The analogy I would make is to compare the preference of (mixing) tools to the choice an instrumentalist makes. I could play a Les Paul, a Telecaster, a D-28 or my old Harmony Sovereign. For my own enjoyment I'll stick to the Sovereign. It's what feels right to me.
I would love to see a picture of that Harmony Dick, and isn't this a good example of "everyone has different likes and needs."
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I would love to see a picture of that Harmony Dick, and isn't this a good example of "everyone has different likes and needs."
I'll see if I can get a pic for you. It's the small bodied Sovereign, sort of like a 000 but with ladder bracing. And, yes, that's what I've been getting at.....or trying to. It all depends on one's needs and comfort zone.
In the meantime, here's a link to an E-bay auction with some photos of one of it's brothers:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vtg-1956-72-Harmony-Sovereign-H1203-Western-Special-Acoustic-Gutar-Near-Mint-/180922979776?pt=Guitar&hash=item2a1fd995c0
I bought my first one new in about '70 for $70 and played it until it fell apart. I won't admit to the reason it died on me........
I'm on my second one now after a 35 year lay-off.
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I didn't mean to imply the above as a rule for everyone, just to say that it depends on the situation and individual preference. The analogy I would make is to compare the preference of (mixing) tools to the choice an instrumentalist makes. I could play a Les Paul, a Telecaster, a D-28 or my old Harmony Sovereign. For my own enjoyment I'll stick to the Sovereign. It's what feels right to me.
That's just crazy talk!
(Playing something else when a Tele could be used!)
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That's just crazy talk!
(Playing something else when a Tele could be used!)
I raise you my Standard 24 with DiMarzios ;)
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I'll see if I can get a pic for you. It's the small bodied Sovereign, sort of like a 000 but with ladder bracing. And, yes, that's what I've been getting at.....or trying to. It all depends on one's needs and comfort zone.
In the meantime, here's a link to an E-bay auction with some photos of one of it's brothers:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vtg-1956-72-Harmony-Sovereign-H1203-Western-Special-Acoustic-Gutar-Near-Mint-/180922979776?pt=Guitar&hash=item2a1fd995c0
I bought my first one new in about '70 for $70 and played it until it fell apart. I won't admit to the reason it died on me........
I'm on my second one now after a 35 year lay-off.
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/chartblog/images/pete_townshend_100.jpg)
????
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I'll see if I can get a pic for you. It's the small bodied Sovereign, sort of like a 000 but with ladder bracing. And, yes, that's what I've been getting at.....or trying to. It all depends on one's needs and comfort zone.
In the meantime, here's a link to an E-bay auction with some photos of one of it's brothers:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vtg-1956-72-Harmony-Sovereign-H1203-Western-Special-Acoustic-Gutar-Near-Mint-/180922979776?pt=Guitar&hash=item2a1fd995c0 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vtg-1956-72-Harmony-Sovereign-H1203-Western-Special-Acoustic-Gutar-Near-Mint-/180922979776?pt=Guitar&hash=item2a1fd995c0)
I bought my first one new in about '70 for $70 and played it until it fell apart. I won't admit to the reason it died on me........
I'm on my second one now after a 35 year lay-off.
I started playing after I asked for a guitar at about age 12. My father said no, my mother brought me to Sears and I anded up with a Silvertone / Harmony / Sovereign and a Chet Atkins album gift set. Lot's of memories.
And Steve knows I can't play a Fender Strat or Tele because of the scale length and my short fat fingers. He's just rubbing it in.
Some years ago my wife and daughters gave me one of these (not the 50th anniversary, but identical), but a gloss 1960 for fathers day. Eat your heart out Steve.
http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Electric-Guitars/Les-Paul/Gibson-Custom/50th-Anniversary-1960-Les-Paul-Standard.aspx (http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Electric-Guitars/Les-Paul/Gibson-Custom/50th-Anniversary-1960-Les-Paul-Standard.aspx)
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Digital versus Analog argument aside... Brand name of the mixer aside...
In an attempt to kinda get back on topic, I'm curious a little here about a feature... Something I've been wanting in a digital console that is at a budget level I can actually pitch to an employer. And since there is no manual out yet I can't really just read it to find out like I normally would.
Is there any kind of "edit lock" features that would allow one to password-protect certain areas of the console (gains, eq, fx, routing, etc) from "meddling" hands?
To understand where I'm coming from, this would be used in an environment where things are set up and then the same show is run multiple times per day for weeks at a time. Mic gains and EQs, routing, other features are preset by myself and one other technician, however the shows are generally run by technicians who are not always sound-oriented, and it seems no matter how hard I try to keep people from adjusting knobs, somehow invariably they always get messed with. Basically I would be looking to lock out most items except for those necessary for the show, which is basically mutes/faders. Please don't get into debates about who we are hiring or anything along those lines, I'm simply asking if these features exist on the console.
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Digital versus Analog argument aside... Brand name of the mixer aside...
In an attempt to kinda get back on topic, I'm curious a little here about a feature... Something I've been wanting in a digital console that is at a budget level I can actually pitch to an employer. And since there is no manual out yet I can't really just read it to find out like I normally would.
Is there any kind of "edit lock" features that would allow one to password-protect certain areas of the console (gains, eq, fx, routing, etc) from "meddling" hands?
To understand where I'm coming from, this would be used in an environment where things are set up and then the same show is run multiple times per day for weeks at a time. Mic gains and EQs, routing, other features are preset by myself and one other technician, however the shows are generally run by technicians who are not always sound-oriented, and it seems no matter how hard I try to keep people from adjusting knobs, somehow invariably they always get messed with. Basically I would be looking to lock out most items except for those necessary for the show, which is basically mutes/faders. Please don't get into debates about who we are hiring or anything along those lines, I'm simply asking if these features exist on the console.
Mr. Boche addressed this in his thread over at SoundForums.net and the answer is "not yet." With the price point of the X32, I expect to see many of them in houses of worship where such lock outs *should* be routine. Time will tell.
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I started playing after I asked for a guitar at about age 12. My father said no, my mother brought me to Sears and I anded up with a Silvertone / Harmony / Sovereign and a Chet Atkins album gift set. Lot's of memories.
And Steve knows I can't play a Fender Strat or Tele because of the scale length and my short fat fingers. He's just rubbing it in.
Some years ago my wife and daughters gave me one of these (not the 50th anniversary, but identical), but a gloss 1960 for fathers day. Eat your heart out Steve.
http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Electric-Guitars/Les-Paul/Gibson-Custom/50th-Anniversary-1960-Les-Paul-Standard.aspx (http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Electric-Guitars/Les-Paul/Gibson-Custom/50th-Anniversary-1960-Les-Paul-Standard.aspx)
thanks Bob - now having to wipe the drool off my work computer keyboard...
I have the opposite issue - my sausage fingers are too big for anything but a Fender, but still pining for a 56 goldtop one of these days...
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Latest Sound on Sound has a pretty full review; they close with saying they'll have a followup review to check on reliability. Worth reading if you're interested in purchasing the board. Then again, I like SOS because when something isn't right, they're not afraid to say so.
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Digital versus Analog argument aside... Brand name of the mixer aside...
In an attempt to kinda get back on topic, I'm curious a little here about a feature... Something I've been wanting in a digital console that is at a budget level I can actually pitch to an employer. And since there is no manual out yet I can't really just read it to find out like I normally would.
Is there any kind of "edit lock" features that would allow one to password-protect certain areas of the console (gains, eq, fx, routing, etc) from "meddling" hands?
To understand where I'm coming from, this would be used in an environment where things are set up and then the same show is run multiple times per day for weeks at a time. Mic gains and EQs, routing, other features are preset by myself and one other technician, however the shows are generally run by technicians who are not always sound-oriented, and it seems no matter how hard I try to keep people from adjusting knobs, somehow invariably they always get messed with. Basically I would be looking to lock out most items except for those necessary for the show, which is basically mutes/faders. Please don't get into debates about who we are hiring or anything along those lines, I'm simply asking if these features exist on the console.
I think i read that you can lockout the whole mixer, and you can control the mixer by MIDI or OSC.
So for a show which is all pre programmed you could maybe lock away the mixer backstage and push only the controls needed via midi controller buttons/faders?
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I think i read that you can lockout the whole mixer, and you can control the mixer by MIDI or OSC.
So for a show which is all pre programmed you could maybe lock away the mixer backstage and push only the controls needed via midi controller buttons/faders?
Running off of MIDI was something I had considered already - we have an older Hog500 that runs lights by chasing MTC, I could probably program that board to push MIDI control commands back out to a digital board at specific cues, but at the same time I'd like to leave the person at the board for the actual volume/mute control - no need to have a singer stub their toe and run offstage only to hear their swearing over the sound system because the board didn't mute them, so I had kind of pushed that to the back-burner of my reasons for wanting a digital board... I'm not trying to eliminate a technician in the booth, but prevent meddling fingers from making adjustments they shouldn't.
The other reason I've been looking into them is this year we've started running multiple shows throughout the year, some of them overlapping, so recallable presets for the channel strips would be nice too...
The "Not Yet" answer makes me hopeful that by the time we can actually do this, which will be after the new year when new budgets go into effect, there will be a new software update in place that allows this.
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...The "Not Yet" answer makes me hopeful that by the time we can actually do this, which will be after the new year when new budgets go into effect, there will be a new software update in place that allows this.
There is a huge market that will want (require) different levels of lockout control. I'm confident Behringer will deliver this soon unless they really screwed up the design in a way that prevents implementing this feature.
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There is a huge market that will want (require) different levels of lockout control. I'm confident Behringer will deliver this soon unless they really screwed up the design in a way that prevents implementing this feature.
Agreed. The M7 does this and was widely embraced by the church market as a result. This seems a feature that would be a huge selling point to exactly the market this console is targeting....
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Behringer is shipping me 2 units this week to test at a few gigs.
We're planning a shootout between the X32, SL24.4.2, and LS9, tentatively set for Saturday, August 25 in Belhaven Park in Jackson, Mississippi. Any and all interested parties are welcome and encouraged to attend.
What I'm told is the "almost" final draft of the operating manual is up on the Behringer website
http://www.behringer.com/EN/products/X32.aspx
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I had one in my shop for an hour or so a few data back, all in all impressive for the price tag. Any questions? I'll answer if I can.....
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The beagle has landed,,,, :-)
Ride it hard and let us know how it does...
JR
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I had one in my shop for an hour or so a few data back, all in all impressive for the price tag. Any questions? I'll answer if I can.....
Similarly I just got to play with one this afternoon and was very impressed with it for the price. I liked the UI of the console as well as the feel of the buttons and encoders, the faders however are not touch sensitive and as such can take a bit of getting used to at first. Other than that, it is a great little board and seemed to work as advertised. Also a small detail that I found cool, its built in audio interface can send 32 channels in both directions over usb as well as fire wire, this struck me as a tad odd but it seemed to work fine in the demo so it seems to be able to do it. The one thing that I really did not like about it is that it is only able to process 36 channels of input even with the stage boxes so you only have 36 channels of processing ability. Also when you pick and choose where your audio is coming from you have to do it in groups of 8 channels and one group of 4 channels (36 total), so for instance you have two stage boxes and you want to use 12 channels from each and 8 channels from the back of the board, you would not be able to, instead you would have to take either 8, 12 or 16 channels from one box and either 8 or 16 from the other and find a way to fit in a group of eight from the built in i/o. This is not the worst thing in the world by any means, it just seemed like an odd way to set up data routing... That said in virtually all other respects the board performed remarkably well and I would defiantly recommend it to a church or a band doing their own sound and for the price even to a larger company as a backup (and a very nice one at that) or as an extra board to keep around for multistage events and such. It really did win me over and while I can't comment on reliability as I was only around it for an hour or two, talking with the reps it really does seem like Behringer has gotten their stuff in order when it came to this board. If you have any other questions feel free to ask and I'm sure that one of us who has worked with the board will be able to answer.
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2 X32 demo units just arrived. I'll have for about 3 weeks.
I'm about to open boxes and see what's in there.... Will keep you posted.
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2 X32 demo units just arrived. I'll have for about 3 weeks.
I'm about to open boxes and see what's in there.... Will keep you posted.
Depending on what you have got handy, I've got a couple of things I'd like you to check out.
- Is the AES/EBU configured for mains output when you turn it on?
- If you have midimonitor handy, what is output through the midi out in the different modes, (Mackie, CC and one more I think)
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Depending on what you have got handy, I've got a couple of things I'd like you to check out.
- Is the AES/EBU configured for mains output when you turn it on?
- If you have midimonitor handy, what is output through the midi out in the different modes, (Mackie, CC and one more I think)
It comes out of the box with AES out connected to main outs. You can switch to C/M, Control Monitor out, any Direct Out, Bus Out, or Matrix Out.
I don't do Midi so I'm not sure I can help you with that question.
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Bingo.
I wonder how many folks are buying ipads and using them once or twice with the mixers so they can use the purchase as a business deduction?
I tried an iPad app once. It was nice for ringing out some wedges but for actual FOH mixing I'd much rather have a surface with real faders and some knobs/rotary encoders
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And please Tim, money is money regardless. I have some deep pockets but I'll be dipped in shit if I spend 3K on ANYTHING and then look at it as a throw away item. We need to eliminate the class distinction and start insisting that it is NOT OK to accept poor support and quality regardless of manufacturer and regardless of cost. One service center for all of Canada and the United States is poor support.
Dear Bob,
As the VP, Care for MUSIC Group, I wanted to jump in and state the facts regarding the service strategy for the X32. You are correct in the fact that we have recently purchased and opened internal Service Centers in Las Vegas and Kidderminster, UK that are staffed by some of the best bench technicians in the industry. However, we still have a network of independent, Factory Authorized Service centers across the US, Canada and Europe that are authorized to service BEHRINGER products.
One of the main benefits of our internal service depot is that our technicians are factory trained. As such, we are able to be extremely efficient in servicing the products as use the same testing and quality procedures as the factory. Another benefit to utilizing our internal service depot is that we carry all spare parts onsite which helps expedite the repair process. If you look at our repair times just 12 months ago when we did not have our internal service depot, the average repair time was approximately 23 days to receive, repair and return a customer unit. With the implementation of our Las Vegas facility, we are currently repairing and shipping units within three business days from the date it is received.
To answer your question on the support model for the X32, we have a 30-day policy where we recommend taking the unit back to the retailer where the unit was purchased for a replacement. After the initial 30-days of ownership, we do prefer that you contact us directly for service and support. Customers can reach us via email - [email protected], by web - www.behringer.com/support or by phone:
USA/Canada - (1) 702-800-8290
Europe - (44) 1562 732290
Once it is determined that service will be needed, we will recommend the best option based on customer needs.
I hope this clears some of the confusion and please feel free to reach out to me directly if you have any questions, comments or concerns.
Patrick Ferdig
VP, CARE
MUSIC Group
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Regarding the lockout function, I did email Behringer support to ask... I am told that there is a global lockout function for everything, but not for specific parameters sadly. I am curious if the lockout mentioned is a "security" type of lockout or just a "don't accidentally mess it up" type of lockout... Also curious if a security lockout of specific areas is a future consideration for the console.
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Many people go against Behringer. I have used 4 of their EP series amps for 5 years now, and not one failure. Pure luck? possibly.. But I do like most of their products. Behringer seems to be pushing more products in the concert audio field lately (Line arrays, large format consoles, etc), and I look forward to trying some of them! Can't say no until you try it, right?
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The lock out on the board when I got to play with it was a global lock out with no password, you just hold down the home button (if I remember correctly) to unlock it. To lock it there is a soft button under a settings menu.
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The lock out on the board when I got to play with it was a global lock out with no password, you just hold down the home button (if I remember correctly) to unlock it. To lock it there is a soft button under a settings menu.
Hopefully there's some Behringer people still reading this thread... I implore you (and I'm sure many other potential users of this console not on this board) to please implement varying degrees of security lockouts (ability to lockout things like the gains, EQing, FX, routing, etc) in future firmware updates. This is one of my main reasons for looking into a digital console and I'm sure many others purchasing in this price range would appreciate the feature too!
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Hopefully there's some Behringer people still reading this thread... I implore you (and I'm sure many other potential users of this console not on this board) to please implement varying degrees of security lockouts (ability to lockout things like the gains, EQing, FX, routing, etc) in future firmware updates. This is one of my main reasons for looking into a digital console and I'm sure many others purchasing in this price range would appreciate the feature too!
+100
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Bingo.
I wonder how many folks are buying ipads and using them once or twice with the mixers so they can use the purchase as a business deduction?
I wanted an iPad since they were released, but I just couldnt justify one. I bought the SL 24.4.2 and a Mac mini to run capture and VSL. Seeing the usefulness of the iPad for remote mixing gave me the justification to get one.
I use it at every gig, but to be honest, besides that, I could pretty much leave it in the trailer. I really don't use it for much other than mixing remotely which is so handy. Ringing out monitors, being able to walk to the side of a stage and adjust a monitor mix on the fly is a godsend.
I don't do gigs large enough to have a separate monitor mix operator, so for what it does, it does well. I used my 16.0.2 for a Rod Stewart Tribute act on Friday, using a laptop and 1 wireless mic. Then on sat I mixed a full band with my 24.4.2 both were mixed remotely via iPad.
In fact, I'm thinking of getting an Audiobox 1818 VSL and installing it in the front of my Mac mini roadcase. That would give me an uber handy 8 channel mixer for these tiny gigs. Mixed again, by the iPad. All 3 setups use the same Mac mini, router and 2TB drive mounted in the 3space ATA case.
That gives me a wide variety to choose from for gig size. The smaller gigs are worth it with the lesser amount of set up time etc. not having to use a snake evey time is really handy.
I'm not doing any national acts with riders etc, but I have found my niche. Again, I use the iPad every single gig.
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Dear Bob,
As the VP, Care for MUSIC Group, I wanted to jump in and state the facts regarding the service strategy for the X32. You are correct in the fact that we have recently purchased and opened internal Service Centers in Las Vegas and Kidderminster, UK that are staffed by some of the best bench technicians in the industry. However, we still have a network of independent, Factory Authorized Service centers across the US, Canada and Europe that are authorized to service BEHRINGER products.
One of the main benefits of our internal service depot is that our technicians are factory trained. As such, we are able to be extremely efficient in servicing the products as use the same testing and quality procedures as the factory. Another benefit to utilizing our internal service depot is that we carry all spare parts onsite which helps expedite the repair process. If you look at our repair times just 12 months ago when we did not have our internal service depot, the average repair time was approximately 23 days to receive, repair and return a customer unit. With the implementation of our Las Vegas facility, we are currently repairing and shipping units within three business days from the date it is received.
To answer your question on the support model for the X32, we have a 30-day policy where we recommend taking the unit back to the retailer where the unit was purchased for a replacement. After the initial 30-days of ownership, we do prefer that you contact us directly for service and support. Customers can reach us via email - [email protected], by web - www.behringer.com/support (http://www.behringer.com/support) or by phone:
USA/Canada - (1) 702-800-8290
Europe - (44) 1562 732290
Once it is determined that service will be needed, we will recommend the best option based on customer needs.
I hope this clears some of the confusion and please feel free to reach out to me directly if you have any questions, comments or concerns.
Patrick Ferdig
VP, CARE
MUSIC Group
Patrick,
Thank you for the detailed response to my concern. Based on your reply it would seem that Music Group has taken, and will continue to take steps towards eliminating our concerns regarding service and support.
I have a question regarding the return of the product to the retailer. Will an exchange be automatic and no questions asked if the unit has failed, or will there be a wait and let's see if we should replace the unit attitude/approach taken towards these requests.
Also, there will be many part which might be considered CRU vs FRU. Will parts be available for those customer replacable components? And please excuse me for not knowing, but where are these factory authorized service centers you speak of.
Thank you again for your honest and open reply.
-
Shootout in the works of Yamaha LS9 / Behringer X32 / Presonus SL 24.4.2.
Here's your chance to compare them all side by side.
New thread started: http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,139516.0.html
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Another query on functionality...
If I'm reading right, the mixer itself can only process 36 channels of incoming audio even with an S16 hooked up... Is there any way to send straight audio signals between the X32 and S16 without being "processed" by the board?
For example, Say I wanted to use an external processor/crossover at FoH, then feed those signals to the amps on stage, would it be possible to use some unused inputs on the mixer without routing through faders or anything and send these signals to outputs on the S16 stage box? Would this use up some of my 36 channels or could it be done as a straight send outside of those 36? Or is this not really possible at all?
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When I was talking with the Behringer folks, I asked them what the main deference in philosophy between them and midas was (in regards to how they look at digital audio). Their response was that midas liked thinking about their consoles as parts of larger audio networks, that is to say a midas desk was only taking a feed off of the big network available and in that way, the network could be flexibly routed and patched in whatever way was deemed necessary without even using up the consoles mix channels. On the other hand Behringer's way of doing things was decidedly more straight forward, a pool of inputs can be chosen from but there really wasn't a big audio network par say, instead there was a console (maybe two) and a stage box. Based on this philosophy as well as the 'interesting' way they let you only take in input channels in groups of 8 or 4, my guess would be no, you can not route inputs directly to outputs without using up the 36 or so available mix channels.
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Their response was that midas liked thinking about their consoles as ... On the other hand Behringer's way of doing things was decidedly more straight forward...
So not nearly as much "similarity" between the two sides of the company as we were led to believe... I just hope they don't use this same lame excuse to justify not putting lockout options into the console...
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Thanks everyone for the great feedback.
We have just posted the latest firmware 1.06 with a number of minor bug fixes many of which were reported by you.
I am personally overseeing the implementation of fixes to any reported bugs and you can see our German software team are turning them around in a heartbeat.
http://www.behringer.com/EN/products/X32.aspx (http://www.behringer.com/EN/products/X32.aspx)
Uli
-
Another query on functionality...
If I'm reading right, the mixer itself can only process 36 channels of incoming audio even with an S16 hooked up... Is there any way to send straight audio signals between the X32 and S16 without being "processed" by the board?
For example, Say I wanted to use an external processor/crossover at FoH, then feed those signals to the amps on stage, would it be possible to use some unused inputs on the mixer without routing through faders or anything and send these signals to outputs on the S16 stage box? Would this use up some of my 36 channels or could it be done as a straight send outside of those 36? Or is this not really possible at all?
Doable yes, but of course this will eat up your overall channel count. Two solutions:
The S-16 can also run in Master mode. This way you could "emulate" a copper core with one S-16 in master mode and one S-16 in slave configuration. Use this aside to your X32 setup and you don't have to offer any X32 channels. All you need is to lay out one CAT5.
Here is, what I do.
Buy a speaker processor with build in ethernet connection and control it with a loptop:-)
I use a Xilica XP4080 hooked up to a wireless router and control it with an old IBM X41 tablet PC 8)
No need for a return core (analog or digital). Sometimes I connected it with a CAT5 Lan cable... WLan is not always stable.
Christian
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Oddly enough, I grabbed the pc control software and was playing around tonight... In the routing section you can route as previosuly mentioned, for example Local 1-8 to Input 1-8, Local 9-16 to Input 9-16, AES50 1-8 to Input 17-24, etc... Then there's a separate routing section for the AES50 Outputs, and it looks as though in addition to the above routing to inputs, you can assign Local inputs directly to AES50 outs.. (Example, I was able to select "Local 25-32" under "AES50 A Outputs 1-8")... If someone who has a test version of the board or perhaps might be attending the shootout could test this theory as to whether it actually works or is a bug in the PC software?? It is also possible I'm not understanding how the S16's interact with the AES50 routing, so if this is totally wrong I apologize, I'm just wondering if someone could test the theory.
-
When I was talking with the Behringer folks, I asked them what the main deference in philosophy between them and midas was (in regards to how they look at digital audio). Their response was that midas liked thinking about their consoles as parts of larger audio networks, that is to say a midas desk was only taking a feed off of the big network available and in that way, the network could be flexibly routed and patched in whatever way was deemed necessary without even using up the consoles mix channels. On the other hand Behringer's way of doing things was decidedly more straight forward, a pool of inputs can be chosen from but there really wasn't a big audio network par say, instead there was a console (maybe two) and a stage box. Based on this philosophy as well as the 'interesting' way they let you only take in input channels in groups of 8 or 4, my guess would be no, you can not route inputs directly to outputs without using up the 36 or so available mix channels.
Dear Sam,
I don't know who you spoke with from our company but since this is an important topic I thought I would try to address it myself by offering some clarifications.
I'm not sure it is accurate to say that there is a difference in philosophy between MIDAS and BEHRINGER with respect to how each brand looks at digital audio. In fact, both brands are committed to the support of complete digital product eco-systems that meet the needs of their customers. This includes standards-based networking designed around the the specific needs of live sound; where low latency and clock stability are critically important performance parameters.
Where the brands differ is in the type of solutions they offer to their customers. MIDAS is a brand that is respected for decades of stellar sonic performance and rock-solid operational stability in the most demanding applications. MIDAS products are used in extremely high-profile events with sometimes hundreds of channels routed through several consoles. In this environment the unique attributes of 96 kHz sample rate, total redundancy with two independent network rings and up to three power supplies and sophisticated signal routing are mandatory.
The X32 uses the very same AES50 network topology as is found on MIDAS Digital consoles. This network is designed from the ground-up to offer the very lowest possible latency and highest stability because it is designed to carry live audio streams; not packet data. On the X32 the network is used not only to connect S16 stage boxes but also to link several consoles together, allowing them to share inputs. In this way one X32 can mix front of house while another mixes monitors for example.
The way in which channels are routed is determined by the intended application for the product. In the case of the X32 we opted for a scheme that makes sense for the way that buyers of this console will be using it. The result is a channel assignment method that allows a user to set up and operate the console quickly, efficiently and with enough flexibility to mix mains, monitors, recording and even a broadcast feed from one set of inputs.
Warm regards,
Uli
-
Oddly enough, I grabbed the pc control software and was playing around tonight... In the routing section you can route as previosuly mentioned, for example Local 1-8 to Input 1-8, Local 9-16 to Input 9-16, AES50 1-8 to Input 17-24, etc... Then there's a separate routing section for the AES50 Outputs, and it looks as though in addition to the above routing to inputs, you can assign Local inputs directly to AES50 outs.. (Example, I was able to select "Local 25-32" under "AES50 A Outputs 1-8")... If someone who has a test version of the board or perhaps might be attending the shootout could test this theory as to whether it actually works or is a bug in the PC software?? It is also possible I'm not understanding how the S16's interact with the AES50 routing, so if this is totally wrong I apologize, I'm just wondering if someone could test the theory.
Hi Chris,
yes it works, but (say you run a 4 way stereo pa system) you have to offer:
8 x Inputchannels
8 x Mixbusses
8 x S-16 analog output
if you connect it like in your example. You could alternativly use the P-16outs (or when running a 3way stereo system) the six Aux inputs. This way you won't offer the eight mixbusses. Still quite clumsy in my eyes.
Christian
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Dear Sam,
I don't know who you spoke with from our company but since this is an important topic I thought I would try to address it myself by offering some clarifications.
I'm not sure it is accurate to say that there is a difference in philosophy between MIDAS and BEHRINGER with respect to how each brand looks at digital audio. In fact, both brands are committed to the support of complete digital product eco-systems that meet the needs of their customers. This includes standards-based networking designed around the the specific needs of live sound; where low latency and clock stability are critically important performance parameters.
Where the brands differ is in the type of solutions they offer to their customers. MIDAS is a brand that is respected for decades of stellar sonic performance and rock-solid operational stability in the most demanding applications. MIDAS products are used in extremely high-profile events with sometimes hundreds of channels routed through several consoles. In this environment the unique attributes of 96 kHz sample rate, total redundancy with two independent network rings and up to three power supplies and sophisticated signal routing are mandatory.
The X32 uses the very same AES50 network topology as is found on MIDAS Digital consoles. This network is designed from the ground-up to offer the very lowest possible latency and highest stability because it is designed to carry live audio streams; not packet data. On the X32 the network is used not only to connect S16 stage boxes but also to link several consoles together, allowing them to share inputs. In this way one X32 can mix front of house while another mixes monitors for example.
The way in which channels are routed is determined by the intended application for the product. In the case of the X32 we opted for a scheme that makes sense for the way that buyers of this console will be using it. The result is a channel assignment method that allows a user to set up and operate the console quickly, efficiently and with enough flexibility to mix mains, monitors, recording and even a broadcast feed from one set of inputs.
Warm regards,
Uli
Ok, I must have misunderstood what they were saying when I asked them about the differing philosophies. (they did bring up the other differences as well (redundancy of components and the like))
Quick question, I'm sure its in the literature somewhere, but what is the sampling rate of the mixer? And why does it only allow group routing to processing channels? (will this be updated in the future to a more flexible routing scheme?)
Thank you very much for clearing up my misconceptions about the board and welcome to the forums, it is really nice to see the head of the company answering questions for people.
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Patrick,
Thank you for the detailed response to my concern. Based on your reply it would seem that Music Group has taken, and will continue to take steps towards eliminating our concerns regarding service and support.
I have a question regarding the return of the product to the retailer. Will an exchange be automatic and no questions asked if the unit has failed, or will there be a wait and let's see if we should replace the unit attitude/approach taken towards these requests.
Also, there will be many part which might be considered CRU vs FRU. Will parts be available for those customer replacable components? And please excuse me for not knowing, but where are these factory authorized service centers you speak of.
Thank you again for your honest and open reply.
Hi Bob,
First off, I have been traveling so I apologize for my delayed response.
Yes, we have worked very hard to increase our level of service across all areas of our business, but we are not finished yet. We are continuing to work hard every day to continue our progress.g
As for product returns, our retailers will generally replace defective product for customers within the first 30 days of ownership. Most retailers will set their own return policies for providing refunds or exchanges for non-defective gear. After the first 30 days, the warranty will be managed by one of our customer care canters to help identify the issue and determine the best course of action for warranty repair.
Most of the items on the X32 are FRU components and are not what I would consider end user replaceable items. We currently have the full line of spares at both our Las Vegas and Kidderminster Care facilities.
Lastly, you mentioned our FASCs and where are they. You can find the list of our current authorized service online at www.behringer.com/support. Please keep in mind that all items provided to a Factory Authorized Service Center for warranty repair requires pre-authorization in the form of an RA number. An RA number can be obtained by contacting us directly.
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Anyone out there got the tech resources to do a shootout between, say, Vi6, LS9, SL24.4.2 and the dreaded X32.
M
Well, I wasn't going to say anything until afterwards, but if we finish up in the shop early enough on Friday, I had planned some listening time between the X32, an M7CL, a PM5D, and a CL5, mostly to A/B the 3 bigger desks, but hey, I'll toss the X32 in there for fun.
Keep in mind, it has never wrecked my day to walk up to any mixer other than my favorite. I'll get a show going regardless. There's far more things I'll work to eliminate (noises, hums, buzzes, designer drugs, etc) to improve a mix than fretting over a console (that is, as long as it's in good shape and decently maintained). So I might not have the Golden-Ear perspective that some might want to hear.
Hey, let's just take care of business and have some fun, okay? We aren't comparing cures for cancer, ya know...
Geri O
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Keep in mind, it has never wrecked my day to walk up to any mixer other than my favorite. I'll get a show going regardless. There's far more things I'll work to eliminate (noises, hums, buzzes, designer drugs, etc) to improve a mix than fretting over a console (that is, as long as it's in good shape and decently maintained). So I might not have the Golden-Ear perspective that some might want to hear.
Geri O
That is exactly why your opinion would be valuable.
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I have been receiving a lot of inquiries from several forum members and thought I would post answers to a group of topics. In the interest of efficiency please allow me to clarify several topics in this one post:
96 kHz
This is a very interesting topic and one which receives plenty of discussion among our various digital engineering teams. Without taking sides in the debate over whether the differences are audible or even necessary in a live sound application, allow me to say that we have made a conscious decision to deliver the X32 with 44.1/48 kHz sample rates. As I have stated before, our goal with the X32 was to deliver a console that meets the real-world needs of the target customer and there are several reasons why that excludes a 96 kHz sample rate.
Most fundamental is the fact that as the sample rate doubles, so does the channel count drop by half. Of course we could add more DSP to maintain the channel count at the higher sample rate, but then the console would likely cost considerably more. Our job is to balance the feature set (channel count) and performance (sample rate) with a cost that makes sense for our customers. While we don’t count it out as a future possibility I would point people to the MIDAS Pro1 as an immediate alternative if they need the higher sample rate.
Why is the X32 so affordable?
This is such an important question because there is a lingering perception that we must somehow be cutting corners to reduce cost. I have seen people claim that we must be using poor quality parts, not following quality control processes or somehow designing in obsolescence. While I can tell you that this is absolutely not the case, it may be best if I offer some insights into our business model to explain.
There are four fundamental elements that comprise the selling price of our products; materials, labor, overhead and profit. Achieving low prices and delivering great value for our customers requires great discipline and hard work in each of these areas. It is my responsibility as the CEO to set the pace and ensure that we reduce costs while always increasing quality; because without quality, we cannot maintain low costs.
We reduce the cost of raw materials in two ways; first, we buy direct from manufacturers and not through a second source, distributor or contract manufacturer. Second, we buy in enormous quantities and leverage this volume in negotiating lower prices. Of course owning the factory where we build our products allows us to cut out at least 30% of the margin demanded by contract manufacturers who are supplying some of our competitors.
Consider that we buy our A/D and D/A converters from Cirrus Logic; the same parts (CS5368 and CS4385) that you will find in a $200k console; we encourage anyone interested to look further into this. We have also been told that we are the single largest Cirrus Logic customer behind only Apple! You will find similar examples with Analog Devices, makers of the SHARC DSPs that we use or Mabuchi, who make the motors for our motor-faders (and those of Penny & Giles, Alps, etc.) and the list goes on. We are buying the very best parts, from the very best manufacturers, direct and in huge quantities. That means we pay the lowest possible prices.
Likewise we have two major ways in which we reduce the cost of labor to build our products. First, we own the factory and this means we are paying workers directly and not through a third party that is making a markup. Again, this results in up to 35% savings. Second, we have invested in massive amount of automation to a far greater extent than many in China in order to reduce cost while increasing quality.
This past year for example we converted the placement of electrolytic capacitors from hand-insertion to full automation. Each of the machines that now place e-caps in rapid-fire succession cost over $500k US so the savings in cost will take some time to be realized. But we have seen an immediate improvement in first-pass yield by eliminating the chance of human error, and that is both improving quality and reducing the cost of re-work.
We run our company with a very low overhead relative to some competitors, and we do this not by cutting corners but rather by working smarter. First off we invest heavily in systems that improve productivity and reduce redundancy. For example our engineering management software Agile talks to our website content management system so when we enter a product’s specifications we do it once and it is automatically replicated across several departments and is immediately posted to the web. Or take our service manuals which are created automatically, in real-time and with the very latest schematics, parts lists and engineering changes - all available through an on-line portal.
Another way we reduce overhead is by re-investing profits in our company to purchase machinery, land and buildings. For example we have purchased new buildings in Manchester, UK and Las Vegas, USA in the past year. We have also purchased land and are building a $60 million state-of-the-art campus to contain a new factory, research center, logistics hub and residential village in China. These investments not only give us greater control over quality and production but they also reduce our operating costs over the long term.
Finally it is important to know that we operate on what would be considered to be a slim margin by industry standards. While some manufacturers price their products according to what they think the market will accept, we do it very differently. We calculate our costs and add a fair markup that will allow us to continue to grow our business and nothing more. Again, we have all seen strategies where manufacturers release new products at high prices only to reduce them as other competitors come into the market. We prefer to offer a fair price from the beginning and not play such games.
The reality of our company is that we are a highly efficient organization of 3,500 people including over 250 engineers and in-house manufacturing. We build up to 5 million products a year and consequently buy parts at the lowest possible cost. Plus, our quality is among the best in the world, with a defect rate of well under 0.7%, allowing us the confidence to offer a 3-year warranty.
Yes, we are a very different kind of company, we want to be different and I am immensely proud of our team.
X32 Manual
I have been asked why we did not issue a full manual when the console first shipped and when it can be expected to become ready. The truth is that we prepared a full manual and decided at the last moment not to release it as we felt it was too long and too complicated. So we set about rewriting the manual and including more illustrations and less text. The new manual should be posted online in the next couple of days but expect it to expand as we roll out new features and implement updates.
Generation 2 Firmware
Since the X32 has first become available we have received tremendous feedback and many suggestions for new features. While many of these suggestions reflect personal preferences we are open to hearing any and all ideas and promise to consider each of them for future revisions. We are already planning the future addition of dedicated function lockouts, which is one of the suggestions we heard from several of you.
One of the most exciting new features that we are planning for the X32 is the inclusion of high-end FX “plug-ins” based on physical modeling of classic audio hardware. Our algorithm development engineers are essentially “rebuilding” classics from Neve, SSL, UREI and others into effects that will be included on the X32. Well-known and loved gear such as the LA-2A compressor, Lexicon reverbs, an SPL De-Esser and even the TC Finalizer multi-band compressor are on our list.
We are also working on some pretty amazing pitch shifting and pitch correction tools for the X32. Imagine pitch correction on every console and the power of what that will allow you to do in a live or recording environment. The best part is that these effects will be made available as part of a regular firmware update and hence will be free of charge to X32 owners! Our goal is to make the X32 a living platform for constant expansion and improvement.
No company is perfect, but rest assured that all of our people are working very hard to constantly improve your Customer Experience, the quality of our products and service in every possible way.
Allow me to thank you again for all your support in all these 23 years.
Warm regards
Uli
-
MUSIC Group Research in Germany Expands
Dear all,
Over the past several months I have come to know many of you by your posts as true experts in pro audio. So when we decided to expand our world-class digital engineering team in Germany - the same team that has developed the X32 - I thought that I would reach out to you. We are currently recruiting for five important positions to join our already established digital mixer team and I am inviting you to spread the word or possibly even make a recommendation - or even apply yourself.
The first position is for two Senior Systems Engineers who will join the digital mixer team. The right person for this role will be fully conversant with modern DSP and FPGA hardware and firmware design, board layout and system troubleshooting and will work closely with the Software team to deliver functional solutions.
http://www.music-group.com/jobs/senior_engineer_systems_de.html
The other open position is for three Senior Software Engineers who will take ownership for all aspects of the design, development and improvement of our state-of-the-art digital audio systems.
http://www.music-group.com/jobs/senior_engineer_software_de.html
These positions will join the team that has been responsible for the X32 Digital Mixer, P16 Personal Monitor System and many other incredible products. They will also be the core of the engineering team that develops future products and systems that will take our digital audio, processing and networking roadmaps forward.
If you are one of the people we're looking for or you know of someone who would be a fit, then please refer them to the following job postings.
Thanks again for all your feedback and warm welcome.
Warm regards
Uli
-
Help! I bought my X32 in late December 2012. I tried interfacing it with my PC laptop using firewire. It didn't work. I tried downloading the latest firmware from the website. I downloaded to 2 different USB's, inserted into USB slot on console top, restarted the console, and nothing. I put the files in the root of the USB sticks per the directions. Any help will be appreciated.
I have been receiving a lot of inquiries from several forum members and thought I would post answers to a group of topics. In the interest of efficiency please allow me to clarify several topics in this one post:
96 kHz
This is a very interesting topic and one which receives plenty of discussion among our various digital engineering teams. Without taking sides in the debate over whether the differences are audible or even necessary in a live sound application, allow me to say that we have made a conscious decision to deliver the X32 with 44.1/48 kHz sample rates. As I have stated before, our goal with the X32 was to deliver a console that meets the real-world needs of the target customer and there are several reasons why that excludes a 96 kHz sample rate.
Most fundamental is the fact that as the sample rate doubles, so does the channel count drop by half. Of course we could add more DSP to maintain the channel count at the higher sample rate, but then the console would likely cost considerably more. Our job is to balance the feature set (channel count) and performance (sample rate) with a cost that makes sense for our customers. While we don’t count it out as a future possibility I would point people to the MIDAS Pro1 as an immediate alternative if they need the higher sample rate.
Why is the X32 so affordable?
This is such an important question because there is a lingering perception that we must somehow be cutting corners to reduce cost. I have seen people claim that we must be using poor quality parts, not following quality control processes or somehow designing in obsolescence. While I can tell you that this is absolutely not the case, it may be best if I offer some insights into our business model to explain.
There are four fundamental elements that comprise the selling price of our products; materials, labor, overhead and profit. Achieving low prices and delivering great value for our customers requires great discipline and hard work in each of these areas. It is my responsibility as the CEO to set the pace and ensure that we reduce costs while always increasing quality; because without quality, we cannot maintain low costs.
We reduce the cost of raw materials in two ways; first, we buy direct from manufacturers and not through a second source, distributor or contract manufacturer. Second, we buy in enormous quantities and leverage this volume in negotiating lower prices. Of course owning the factory where we build our products allows us to cut out at least 30% of the margin demanded by contract manufacturers who are supplying some of our competitors.
Consider that we buy our A/D and D/A converters from Cirrus Logic; the same parts (CS5368 and CS4385) that you will find in a $200k console; we encourage anyone interested to look further into this. We have also been told that we are the single largest Cirrus Logic customer behind only Apple! You will find similar examples with Analog Devices, makers of the SHARC DSPs that we use or Mabuchi, who make the motors for our motor-faders (and those of Penny & Giles, Alps, etc.) and the list goes on. We are buying the very best parts, from the very best manufacturers, direct and in huge quantities. That means we pay the lowest possible prices.
Likewise we have two major ways in which we reduce the cost of labor to build our products. First, we own the factory and this means we are paying workers directly and not through a third party that is making a markup. Again, this results in up to 35% savings. Second, we have invested in massive amount of automation to a far greater extent than many in China in order to reduce cost while increasing quality.
This past year for example we converted the placement of electrolytic capacitors from hand-insertion to full automation. Each of the machines that now place e-caps in rapid-fire succession cost over $500k US so the savings in cost will take some time to be realized. But we have seen an immediate improvement in first-pass yield by eliminating the chance of human error, and that is both improving quality and reducing the cost of re-work.
We run our company with a very low overhead relative to some competitors, and we do this not by cutting corners but rather by working smarter. First off we invest heavily in systems that improve productivity and reduce redundancy. For example our engineering management software Agile talks to our website content management system so when we enter a product’s specifications we do it once and it is automatically replicated across several departments and is immediately posted to the web. Or take our service manuals which are created automatically, in real-time and with the very latest schematics, parts lists and engineering changes - all available through an on-line portal.
Another way we reduce overhead is by re-investing profits in our company to purchase machinery, land and buildings. For example we have purchased new buildings in Manchester, UK and Las Vegas, USA in the past year. We have also purchased land and are building a $60 million state-of-the-art campus to contain a new factory, research center, logistics hub and residential village in China. These investments not only give us greater control over quality and production but they also reduce our operating costs over the long term.
Finally it is important to know that we operate on what would be considered to be a slim margin by industry standards. While some manufacturers price their products according to what they think the market will accept, we do it very differently. We calculate our costs and add a fair markup that will allow us to continue to grow our business and nothing more. Again, we have all seen strategies where manufacturers release new products at high prices only to reduce them as other competitors come into the market. We prefer to offer a fair price from the beginning and not play such games.
The reality of our company is that we are a highly efficient organization of 3,500 people including over 250 engineers and in-house manufacturing. We build up to 5 million products a year and consequently buy parts at the lowest possible cost. Plus, our quality is among the best in the world, with a defect rate of well under 0.7%, allowing us the confidence to offer a 3-year warranty.
Yes, we are a very different kind of company, we want to be different and I am immensely proud of our team.
X32 Manual
I have been asked why we did not issue a full manual when the console first shipped and when it can be expected to become ready. The truth is that we prepared a full manual and decided at the last moment not to release it as we felt it was too long and too complicated. So we set about rewriting the manual and including more illustrations and less text. The new manual should be posted online in the next couple of days but expect it to expand as we roll out new features and implement updates.
Generation 2 Firmware
Since the X32 has first become available we have received tremendous feedback and many suggestions for new features. While many of these suggestions reflect personal preferences we are open to hearing any and all ideas and promise to consider each of them for future revisions. We are already planning the future addition of dedicated function lockouts, which is one of the suggestions we heard from several of you.
One of the most exciting new features that we are planning for the X32 is the inclusion of high-end FX “plug-ins” based on physical modeling of classic audio hardware. Our algorithm development engineers are essentially “rebuilding” classics from Neve, SSL, UREI and others into effects that will be included on the X32. Well-known and loved gear such as the LA-2A compressor, Lexicon reverbs, an SPL De-Esser and even the TC Finalizer multi-band compressor are on our list.
We are also working on some pretty amazing pitch shifting and pitch correction tools for the X32. Imagine pitch correction on every console and the power of what that will allow you to do in a live or recording environment. The best part is that these effects will be made available as part of a regular firmware update and hence will be free of charge to X32 owners! Our goal is to make the X32 a living platform for constant expansion and improvement.
No company is perfect, but rest assured that all of our people are working very hard to constantly improve your Customer Experience, the quality of our products and service in every possible way.
Allow me to thank you again for all your support in all these 23 years.
Warm regards
Uli
-
Help! I bought my X32 in late December 2012. I tried interfacing it with my PC laptop using firewire. It didn't work. I tried downloading the latest firmware from the website. I downloaded to 2 different USB's, inserted into USB slot on console top, restarted the console, and nothing. I put the files in the root of the USB sticks per the directions. Any help will be appreciated.
What kind of USB sticks, and how were they formatted?
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Help! I bought my X32 in late December 2012. I tried interfacing it with my PC laptop using firewire. It didn't work. I tried downloading the latest firmware from the website. I downloaded to 2 different USB's, inserted into USB slot on console top, restarted the console, and nothing. I put the files in the root of the USB sticks per the directions. Any help will be appreciated.
Not every brand of USB stick works. I"ve have good luck with the SanDisk Cruzer sticks...
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Help! I bought my X32 in late December 2012. I tried interfacing it with my PC laptop using firewire. It didn't work. I tried downloading the latest firmware from the website. I downloaded to 2 different USB's, inserted into USB slot on console top, restarted the console, and nothing. I put the files in the root of the USB sticks per the directions. Any help will be appreciated.
Couldn't find the answers over at SoundForums.net, or from Behringer, eh?
The Behringer Appreciation Society is MUCH smaller over here...
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Help! I bought my X32 in late December 2012. I tried interfacing it with my PC laptop using firewire. It didn't work. I tried downloading the latest firmware from the website. I downloaded to 2 different USB's, inserted into USB slot on console top, restarted the console, and nothing. I put the files in the root of the USB sticks per the directions. Any help will be appreciated.
Buy a new computer......
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Help! I bought my X32 in late December 2012. I tried interfacing it with my PC laptop using firewire. It didn't work. I tried downloading the latest firmware from the website. I downloaded to 2 different USB's, inserted into USB slot on console top, restarted the console, and nothing. I put the files in the root of the USB sticks per the directions. Any help will be appreciated.
Try Behringer customer service.
JR
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That is exactly why your opinion would be valuable.
Ditto. I have mixed on all but the CL... Plus Profile, D Show, Rolands, SL 24.4.2 , LS9 and Soundcrafts.. I have my own X32 opinion which I will hold on to.
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I ended up assigning a new IP address to my puter (Local area connection)10.0.0.1 and X32 10.0.0.2. I used 255.255.255.0 for the Gateway. Attached ethernet cable to X32/puter- and wallah! It worked. Thanks Don Leamen!
You have to unzip the firmware 1st before placing the file in the root of your USB! I'm learning! :)
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I ended up assigning a new IP address to my puter (Local area connection)10.0.0.1 and X32 10.0.0.2. I used 255.255.255.0 for the Gateway. Attached ethernet cable to X32/puter- and wallah! It worked. Thanks Don Leamen!
You have to unzip the firmware 1st before placing the file in the root of your USB! I'm learning! :)
It's gonna be a long road...
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I ended up assigning a new IP address to my puter (Local area connection)10.0.0.1 and X32 10.0.0.2. I used 255.255.255.0 for the Gateway.
It may work, but not correctly or for the right reasons.
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It may work, but not correctly or for the right reasons.
It did work and all functions were operable so I could "play" with Xcontrol on my laptop. I have a router that I will use at shows. But, it was nice to be able to hardwire an ethernet connection and make it work. Versatility! I was simply sharing an application that worked with the forum.
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I ended up assigning a new IP address to my puter (Local area connection)10.0.0.1 and X32 10.0.0.2. I used 255.255.255.0 for the Gateway.
If by "Gateway" you mean "Subnet Mask", then this is correct. If not, address your gateway (ie: router) within the subnet (10.0.0.x) with the 255.255.255.0 subnet mask.
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My "not for the right reasons" comment was simply due to the ethernet settings you were using, not saying the X32 can't communicate to a computer without a router.
For simplicity and compatibility purposes I would avoid having your computer on the .1 address since that is typically used by gateways within the subnet (which the 255.255.255.0 "masks" out) - If you happen to forget to set your computer back to DHCP then this will end up conflicting with your router. Another tip to that end is to use the same subnet as your router would use but outside of the DHCP assignable range. So if your router uses the 10.0.0.x subnet, typically assigning an address in the upper region, say between 10.0.0.200 and .254 is fine, in this way it will still work with your router should you forget to set the computer back to DHCP and not interfere with other devices if that happens. (My personal recommendation for that situation would be X32 at .200 and computer at .201).
If your router works in the 192.168.0.x subnet, then adjust accordingly.
(Little known fact, if you're not trying to access another "network" (ie, the internet) you can use whatever address you want for the gateway, so he could've gotten away with using 255.255.255.0 for the gateway and still have the network work, and since this was a peer-to-peer style connection I'm assuming there was no internet involved anyway.)
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(Little known fact, if you're not trying to access another "network" (ie, the internet) you can use whatever address you want for the gateway, so he could've gotten away with using 255.255.255.0 for the gateway and still have the network work, and since this was a peer-to-peer style connection I'm assuming there was no internet involved anyway.)
While this would technically work, it's procedurally wrong. The IP communications RCF [1918] states that private addressing should be used unless you have registered your address with the proper authority (IANA). Stick to the private addressing ranges (10.0.0.0 - 10.255.255.255.255 [10/8], 172.16.0.0 - 172.31.255.255 [172.16/12], or 192.168.0.0 - 192.168.255.255 [192.168/16]).
Any device can use any address within your subnet. I regularly see routers addressed at the beginning of subnets, at the end of subnets, and everywhere else within the subnet. It seems fairly typical that (in home networks) routers are addressed with the x.x.x.1 addressing scheme and a 24bit subnet mask; however, in large scale networks all bets are off. Even if all routers are to be addressed at the beginning of the subnet (as defined by company policy), there is no guarantee that the beginning of the subnet would be a x.x.x.1 address. The subnet mask defines where the beginning and end of a subnet are. Since subnet masks are binary (in operation), they don't translate that nicely into base10 numbers (or thinking). Let's not forget that the first address on a subnet (x.x.x.0 for a 24bit mask) identifies the network, and the last address (x.x.x.255 for a 24bit mask) is the broadcast address - so avoid using those.
Given that most home networks are addressed on the 192.168.0/24 subnet and that most are wireless, the OP's choice to use the 10.0.0/24 subnet for the wired LAN connection is a valid one. Address one device to 10.0.0.1 with a 255.255.255.0 mask; address the other device to 10.0.0.2 with a 255.255.255.0 mask; and enjoy the results. Since it's using a different interface for this subnet, there should be no conflict with the connection to the wireless network.
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Thank you Scott for saving me the time to type the correct response.
Additionally the subnet mask 255.255.255.0, a class "C" mask provides for allocation of any address between .1 and .254 to ANY device. A "gateway" is a device within your physical subnet which is aware of and can forward your IP address to a device NOT seen by you local subnet, typically but not always a router.
Therefor if your subnet is 192.168.1.xxx
And the mask is 255.255.255.0
You can then "see" any address on the 192.168.1.xxx subnet .1 through .254
If you set the default gateway to 192.168.1.1, then ANY time your 192.168.1.xxx device CAN NOT find the address within your subnet that you have asked for 192.168.1.1 is looked at to see if that address has an answer, or knows where to send your packet of data. You may not always like the answer you receive as traffic can also be blocked using a set of complex rules in which case you may have discovered a "firewall".
So if your PC or board is addressed;
192.168.1.10
255.255.255.0
GW=192.168.1.1
and your router is addressed as 192.168.1.1, where does the board look if it can't find 192.168.10.55 ?
It looks at the router and asks the router if it knows where 192.168.10.55 is located. Your router then looks at the networks it is aware of to see if it can resolve the address. If not you will eventually (500ms) receive the dreaded address unknown reply.
That is why you can use anything inside the house up to the router (outside world). From that point subnets are licensed and why your provider issues the IP address for your home router. They own the subnet addressing scheme you attach to.
Keep your network simple, live long, and prosper.
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Thanks for missing the point of being a hypothetical situation with regards to the 255 as a gateway address. I wasn't recommending anyone use it, just stating that a fully internal network would still work... Not like I went to school for telecommunications and networking or anything.
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Not trying to make you look like a knucklehead Chris, but if you put it into text the uninformed may take your words as gospel vs. a hypothetical reply.