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Title: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Rick Alan on May 04, 2018, 10:10:51 AM
All are welcome. Come joins use for a Danley demo outside at Riverfront Park in Cocoa, FL May 16th 11:00am.  More info on the FB event page.

https://www.facebook.com/events/1521089144667335/
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on May 04, 2018, 10:32:34 AM
Ooooh I wish I lived closer....
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Chrysander 'C.R.' Young on May 04, 2018, 11:30:56 AM
Hmm, that's not scary far from Gainesville.  Might have to make a trip out for this one.  What system(s) will be used?
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Dave Garoutte on May 04, 2018, 12:09:32 PM
  What system(s) will be used?

The facebook link has that info.
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Cailen Waddell on May 04, 2018, 12:11:07 PM
Ooooh I wish I lived closer....
Debbie there is plenty of danley close by...  I’m certain we could arrange a demo at some point.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on May 04, 2018, 03:31:56 PM
Debbie there is plenty of danley close by...  I’m certain we could arrange a demo at some point.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I did get to listen to a couple of the SM80 outdoor versions (OS 80?) a couple of years ago at Scott Carnevals workshop when we did a Danley/SRX  comparison but thats it. It would be nice to hear a full system.... :D
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Michael Lascuola on May 04, 2018, 09:52:08 PM
I'd love to see someone bring good mics and a better than cell phone quality video.  I feel the product deserves better "press."
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Jeff Lelko on May 04, 2018, 09:58:54 PM
Hi Rick, thanks for putting this together!  Unless something comes up I'll definitely plan on attending.  As I think you know, I'm a regular lights/sound provider at this venue so it'll be nice to hear the Danley products in an environment I'm very familiar with.  See you then! 
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Lance Hallmark on May 08, 2018, 04:24:25 PM
I'm starting to feel a little sick, probably will be in full swing by mid-week, guess I'm going to have to miss work on Wednesday.  ;D
Pretty sure I'll be there, coming over from the Tampa area, will probably bring a few with me. I could bring an Orbit Shifter and Noesis 3TX if anyone was interested in a comparison - if you wanted, of course, wouldn't want to intrude or step on toes.
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Jeff Lelko on May 08, 2018, 06:09:35 PM
I could bring an Orbit Shifter and Noesis 3TX if anyone was interested.

I'm attending and would be interested!  Given that both the SM80/TH118 and Noesis 3TX/OS were recommended to me as replacement/upgrades for my QSC HPR rig at this exact venue, getting to hear both there would be amazing!  I'd volunteer my QSC boxes too, but given the other higher quality speakers being auditioned I doubt they'd add any value.
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 08, 2018, 06:59:30 PM
Some of the "big boys" may show up as well, just for fun. 

Not sure yet.
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Chrysander 'C.R.' Young on May 08, 2018, 07:19:23 PM
That settles it.  I will be there.  Anyone want to carpool from Gainesville?  :)
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Jeff Lelko on May 08, 2018, 07:23:11 PM
As an aside, there's a fair amount of local eateries in Cocoa Village.  If seafood is your thing there's plenty to enjoy up in Port Canaveral too.  Not sure if anyone would be interested in a PSW hangout afterwards, but it's always nice to put faces to the names!
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Keith Broughton on May 09, 2018, 09:32:03 AM
If I wasn't moving those 2 weeks, I would use this as an excuse to ride my bike down from Toronto.  :'(
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 09, 2018, 11:53:59 AM
If I wasn't moving those 2 weeks, I would use this as an excuse to ride my bike down from Toronto.  :'(
You can always move later-------

I will be doing a concert later that week (20th) in Fort Lauderdale with J3s and BC415s if you wanted to "hang".

That's a lot of peddling on a bike :)  HA-HA, I know you just like any excuse to take a nice long ride.  It is not to hot-yet. 
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Rick Alan on May 09, 2018, 01:37:39 PM
We are working on some possible surprises.  More details to come.  All the planets have to line up to bring out some "Big Guns."

Some of the "big boys" may show up as well, just for fun. 

Not sure yet.
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: John L Nobile on May 09, 2018, 01:49:38 PM
Can't make it but it would be nice if someone posted pics. We don't see many Danley systems in the wild in Canada.
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Rick Alan on May 09, 2018, 03:33:23 PM
Not to worry, I will be doing a video of the event.

Can't make it but it would be nice if someone posted pics. We don't see many Danley systems in the wild in Canada.
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: John L Nobile on May 09, 2018, 04:21:17 PM
Not to worry, I will be doing a video of the event.

 :)
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Keith Broughton on May 10, 2018, 08:01:50 AM
Can't make it but it would be nice if someone posted pics. We don't see many Danley systems in the wild in Canada.
There are some SBH10s and SBH20s down in Kitchener you should hear, John. Also TH112s. VERY surprising low end from a 12"!
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: John L Nobile on May 10, 2018, 10:37:14 AM
There are some SBH10s and SBH20s down in Kitchener you should hear, John. Also TH112s. VERY surprising low end from a 12"!

I should but it's finally golf season and I don't leave town till November.

Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Rick Alan on May 10, 2018, 11:32:35 AM
Excited to announce the big guns are coming.

1 - J3-94
2 - BC218
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Lance Hallmark on May 10, 2018, 04:53:36 PM
I'm attending and would be interested!  Given that both the SM80/TH118 and Noesis 3TX/OS were recommended to me as replacement/upgrades for my QSC HPR rig at this exact venue, getting to hear both there would be amazing!  I'd volunteer my QSC boxes too, but given the other higher quality speakers being auditioned I doubt they'd add any value.

I won't be able to this time Jeff but we will set it up at some point. You can always hit me up as well if you are in the Tampa Bay area if you would like to hear my setup. I'm not a salesperson or broker, just someone who appreciates good sound. Looking forward to the Danley Demos!
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Jeff Lelko on May 10, 2018, 06:51:38 PM
No worries Lance.  I appreciate your offer and will let you know the next time I'm on that side of the state!
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Rick Alan on May 14, 2018, 03:12:27 PM
Do to a tropical front setting over FL for the next couple day I am rescheduling the events to next week.  More details to come. 

Rick
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Jeff Lelko on May 14, 2018, 06:18:27 PM
Do to a tropical front setting over FL for the next couple day I am rescheduling the events to next week.  More details to come. 

I was about to ask if you had a rain plan!  I'll stay tuned for the reschedule! 
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Rick Alan on May 15, 2018, 11:46:15 AM
New Danley Date May 24th
Same Danley Location
Same Danley Time
 

https://www.facebook.com/events/1521089144667335/
[/quote]
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Chris Hindle on May 15, 2018, 12:14:07 PM
New Danley Date May 24th
Same Danley Location
Same Danley Time
 

https://www.facebook.com/events/1521089144667335/
Gee. I wanted to hear them in a good stiff breeze.......  ::)
Be safe out there...
Chris.
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Rick Alan on May 16, 2018, 08:25:22 PM
Make sure you register to win free stuff at the event next Thursday. 

https://goo.gl/forms/0TGrTSTegg4mp4023
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Rick Alan on May 20, 2018, 01:33:44 PM
Sample of whats to come at the demo.  This was an event in south FL with 2-J3, 2-BC218, 4-BC415

https://vimeo.com/270921662
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 20, 2018, 10:10:05 PM
Sample of whats to come at the demo.  This was an event in south FL with 2-J3, 2-BC218, 4-BC415

https://vimeo.com/270921662

The show got cancelled this morning.

When I got to the gig, this is what I did on the way to the stage

https://www.facebook.com/ivan.beaver/videos/2170016543027713/
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 20, 2018, 10:27:24 PM
Nothing like needing a boat to get to FOH

https://www.facebook.com/ivan.beaver/videos/2170674386295262/
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Michael Lascuola on May 20, 2018, 11:33:55 PM
I think you need to make that post public, Ivan (unless you only want your FB friends to be able to see it :) )
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: David Winners on May 21, 2018, 08:04:50 AM
I know that shows of this magnitude are at the other end of the pool from where I swim, so this question is posed in near complete ignorance...

Why would someone choose to deal with deploying a line array when a single J3 at 432 pounds will average 101db at 128 meters, needs one NL8 connection, can be driven and processed by one amplifier and is a point source cabinet?
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 21, 2018, 08:28:43 AM
I know that shows of this magnitude are at the other end of the pool from where I swim, so this question is posed in near complete ignorance...

Why would someone choose to deal with deploying a line array when a single J3 at 432 pounds will average 101db at 128 meters, needs one NL8 connection, can be driven and processed by one amplifier and is a point source cabinet?
There are lots of reasons.

The rental company can charge more money.

It currently meets "rider" requirements.

People "think" it is more scaleable.

It is easier to rent more boxes and "think" you are getting louder.  But it takes A LOT more boxes than people think to make any noticeable difference in SPL

People like to think that 16 boxes that are 150lbs is easier to move than 1 that is 450lbs.

People like to hire more crew to set it up, so they can bill the promoter more for more hands.

Some people like the idea that they can "blame the wind" for blowing the sound around, when they cannot mix.  It doesn't have to be that way.

I have heard people say that they don't like a system that responds to every little change you make on the console.  They prefer a system that you have to make large changes on the console to hear it.

Loudspeaker companies like line arrays because they can sell more boxes.

Loudspeaker driver manufacturers like line arrays because they sell more drivers.

If you notice something common here-money
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: John Fruits on May 21, 2018, 09:19:05 AM
Ivan, you left one item out, the so-called "consultants" who are really only salespeople for the merchant hired as the "consultant".
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on May 21, 2018, 11:31:53 AM
 If you need to choose somewhere else to hold the demo due to all the rain in FL, you are welcome to come to the Raleigh NC area - you could use my back yard if you want!.... I won't mind - honestly... ;D
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Rick Alan on May 23, 2018, 07:38:37 PM
Tomorrow
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Keith Broughton on May 24, 2018, 06:15:17 AM
Quote
There are lots of reasons.

Don't forget that line arrays "look cool" 8)   ;D
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 24, 2018, 08:16:40 AM
Don't forget that line arrays "look cool" 8)   ;D
Often "cool and sexy" does not equal "practical and useful" and better performing where it counts.

Just like people.

Often the best people are not the prettiest or handsome, but they work/do the job better.

Just my opinion anyway.
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: John Fruits on May 24, 2018, 11:08:56 AM
Don't forget that line arrays "look cool" 8)   ;D
Also don't that some have that strange typo, they should be called lyin' arrays.
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on May 24, 2018, 01:59:34 PM
Tomorrow

Have fun   :'(
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Jeff Lelko on May 24, 2018, 02:29:02 PM
Have fun   :'(

It was!  So nice to finally get ears on some Danley products!
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on May 24, 2018, 04:37:42 PM
It was!  So nice to finally get ears on some Danley products!

I'm not jealous or anything.....
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Scott Bolt on May 24, 2018, 07:11:08 PM
I'm not jealous or anything.....
I am ;)

@Ivan,

I tend to agree with your statements on line arrays.  From an engineering stand point, it is always much easier to get good alignment and clarity from a single point source than a line array.

Wouldn't a line array spread the sound more evenly though?  Just from a pure transmission theory standpoint, a line source will be more even than a point source .... until you get far enough away that the "line" starts looking like a point of course.
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on May 24, 2018, 07:20:54 PM
I am ;)

@Ivan,

I tend to agree with your statements on line arrays.  From an engineering stand point, it is always much easier to get good alignment and clarity from a single point source than a line array.

Wouldn't a line array spread the sound more evenly though?  Just from a pure transmission theory standpoint, a line source will be more even than a point source .... until you get far enough away that the "line" starts looking like a point of course.

Here we go...

That is the equivalent of saying.  Hey salesmen, tell me about that thing the other guy sells.
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on May 24, 2018, 07:32:30 PM
Here we go...

That is the equivalent of saying.  Hey salesmen, tell me about that thing the other guy sells.

My husband is always happy to tell the customer about that thing the other guy sells....... he usually wins the bid.  ;)
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Jeff Lelko on May 24, 2018, 08:29:38 PM
I'm not jealous or anything.....

Sorry Debbie!  I'd share some pictures but don't want to steal Rick's thunder.  He was the one gracious enough to coordinate the event and deserves the bragging rights for a stage full of Danleys!
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Rick Powell on May 24, 2018, 09:24:43 PM
I am ;)

@Ivan,

I tend to agree with your statements on line arrays.  From an engineering stand point, it is always much easier to get good alignment and clarity from a single point source than a line array.

Wouldn't a line array spread the sound more evenly though?  Just from a pure transmission theory standpoint, a line source will be more even than a point source .... until you get far enough away that the "line" starts looking like a point of course.

“If” one could create a perfectly cylindrical wavefront, yes. The argument as I understand it is that the compromises that are made to create an imperfect cylindrical wavefront outweigh the advantages using today’s technology.
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 24, 2018, 10:02:39 PM
“If” one could create a perfectly cylindrical wavefront, yes. The argument as I understand it is that the compromises that are made to create an imperfect cylindrical wavefront outweigh the advantages using today’s technology.

Danley uses Wisdom of the Ancients®.  What is new is that Tom put it all together and then built a box around it.

The primary issue with curved vertical arrays is the astigmatism created by the curve, then the self-interference that is undesired (as opposed to the desired self-interference).

"Other than *that*, what did you think of the play, Mrs. Lincoln?"
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 24, 2018, 11:18:29 PM
I am ;)

@Ivan,

I tend to agree with your statements on line arrays.  From an engineering stand point, it is always much easier to get good alignment and clarity from a single point source than a line array.

Wouldn't a line array spread the sound more evenly though?  Just from a pure transmission theory standpoint, a line source will be more even than a point source .... until you get far enough away that the "line" starts looking like a point of course.
If you look at what a line array does- or any time you start to put loudspeaker in a line, the pattern narrows.  That is basic physics.

So you are not getting wider coverage (when horizontal) or taller coverage (when vertical) you are getting LESS.

I just got done doing STIPA measurements of a large (100,000+ seat) stadium.

 It was pretty interesting.  Doing what the theory would suggest.

In the areas where 1 loudspeaker was covering the seats, the intelligibility was higher.  Where more than 1 loudspeaker was covering the seats (like the far end zone and under the scoreboard) the intelligibility was lower.

That just goes to show that interference lowers intelligibility.

When it comes to loudspeakers, the FEWER you can use, the BETTER it will sound.  No matter whos loudspeakers they are.
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Scott Bolt on May 25, 2018, 04:17:55 PM
If you look at what a line array does- or any time you start to put loudspeaker in a line, the pattern narrows.  That is basic physics.

So you are not getting wider coverage (when horizontal) or taller coverage (when vertical) you are getting LESS.

I just got done doing STIPA measurements of a large (100,000+ seat) stadium.

 It was pretty interesting.  Doing what the theory would suggest.

In the areas where 1 loudspeaker was covering the seats, the intelligibility was higher.  Where more than 1 loudspeaker was covering the seats (like the far end zone and under the scoreboard) the intelligibility was lower.

That just goes to show that interference lowers intelligibility.

When it comes to loudspeakers, the FEWER you can use, the BETTER it will sound.  No matter whos loudspeakers they are.
Thanks Ivan.
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Lance Hallmark on May 30, 2018, 02:55:59 PM
Thanks again Rick for putting on the event. Power issues notwithstanding, an impressive demonstration of sound. First time I was able to hear most of the models present outside, sounded great across the board from 100-300 feet. Especially impressed with the SM80 outside and the SM80f with the 4 TH-118s, you already know the J3s and BC415 are going to rock!
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: John L Nobile on May 30, 2018, 03:51:36 PM
Can someone who was there please give us some info on the event? What cabinets were there, thoughts?
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Lance Hallmark on May 31, 2018, 03:48:25 PM
Can someone who was there please give us some info on the event? What cabinets were there, thoughts?

From what I recall:
SM80, SM80f, OS80, J3, THMini15, TH118, BC415, SH96, J3
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Jeff Lelko on May 31, 2018, 04:46:37 PM
Can someone who was there please give us some info on the event? What cabinets were there, thoughts?

I believe Lance got the cabinet roster correct (minus the BC218s that didn't come out), and I'll throw in my 2 cents as well...

The SM80, while impressive for what it was, isn't for me.  I didn't notice enough of an improvement over my existing QSC tops to warrant the upgrade, but more importantly I just can't live with such a high crossover point mandated by the SM80 frequency response.  I do enough corporate events where I don't want subs - including several at that exact venue (and yes, I was the guy who asked to hear the SM80 without subs), so I'd want something that can extend a little lower.  Great box - just not in line with my needs.

The SM80F was a substantial improvement on that remark, but after being allowed to wheel it around a bit I can see how logistically this box might be a struggle to handle for a smaller 2 person crew, which is how I run 85% of my events.  For a permanent install or in situations where there's plenty of crew to help lift this option would be much more viable given it's 215 pounds.  It was definitely amazing to hear what just one box can do though!

The TH118s on the other hand were very impressive.  Even with high expectations, I was completely taken aback by what a block of 4 can do, and that's coming from a current Yorkville UCS1 owner/user.  Not surprising, 4 TH118s would be a very nice upgrade path for me.

Finally, the J3/BC415 combo was great.  The coherence of the audio even 300ft back was outstanding, and I would have walked even further back had it not been for the river.  I'd have no hesitation using them, but again, it's a big box.  At that point your handling logistics really need to be in line.  For me, not only was hearing the speakers nice but so was being able to move a few of them.  Being a smaller operator I really don't want to be stuck with something that's nearly impossible to move safely by only one or two people. 

It was a great demo though.  I was really happy to finally hear some of the Danley products and compare the offerings with what my near-term needs are for business growth.  It was nice meeting you too Lance, along with couple of other PSWers out there!
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on May 31, 2018, 05:12:22 PM
From what I recall:
SM80, SM80f, OS80, J3, THMini15, TH118, BC415, SH96, J3

Is there any possibility that someone that knows which ones are which could mark up that picture and label which boxes are which?
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Jeff Lelko on May 31, 2018, 05:19:16 PM
Is there any possibility that someone that knows which ones are which could mark up that picture and label which boxes are which?

Left to Right:
SM80, BC415, SM80F, SH96 (above the SM80F), THmini15 (x2), TH118 (x4), SH96, BC415, J3, SM80, OS80.  There's a second J3 hidden behind the lefthand BC415.
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on May 31, 2018, 05:29:59 PM
Left to Right:
SM80, BC415, SM80F, SH96 (above the SM80F), THmini15 (x2), TH118 (x4), SH96, BC415, J3, SM80, OS80.  There's a second J3 hidden behind the lefthand BC415.

Thank you. The BC415 is much bigger then I thought and the J3 looks smaller then I thought. So the OS80 is the shinny white or silver one?
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: John L Nobile on May 31, 2018, 05:37:37 PM
Thanks for the update and the pics gentlemen. I'd love to hear the J3/BC415 setup.

Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Jeff Lelko on May 31, 2018, 06:02:52 PM
So the OS80 is the shinny white or silver one?

Yep!  It had a little more LF output than the SM80 (I forget the reason why), but you'd still want to use a sub with it for any real music playback.  The J3 isn't terrible size-wise, but at 440 pounds you still won't be throwing it up on your shoulder!  I also believe the Danley distributor mentioned that you'd ideally want something like 3 BC415s for every J3, so the logistics of that definitely puts it out of the league of most smaller companies such as mine, but I can certainly see the appeal to the larger companies who usually use large arrays and piles of subs.  Quite an interesting alternative!   
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Tom Roche on May 31, 2018, 08:29:58 PM
Impressions on the sound of the THMini15?
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 31, 2018, 09:00:28 PM
Yep!  It had a little more LF output than the SM80 (I forget the reason why), but you'd still want to use a sub with it for any real music playback.  The J3 isn't terrible size-wise, but at 440 pounds you still won't be throwing it up on your shoulder!  I also believe the Danley distributor mentioned that you'd ideally want something like 3 BC415s for every J3, so the logistics of that definitely puts it out of the league of most smaller companies such as mine, but I can certainly see the appeal to the larger companies who usually use large arrays and piles of subs.  Quite an interesting alternative!   
The OS80 has more low freq than the SM80, simply because it has a larger interior volume in the cabinet.

I personally say that if you are doing "hard" material (EDM-hard rock etc) you should use 4 BC415s for each J3.  Of course you can use less, it just depends on how much low end you want/need.

But when you consider that a single J3 can take the place of 16 or more line arrays and each BC415 can take the place of 6-8 double 18s, you may not need as much as you think.
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Jeff Lelko on May 31, 2018, 09:40:53 PM
The OS80 has more low freq than the SM80, simply because it has a larger interior volume in the cabinet.

Thanks Ivan, now that you mention it that's what I recall being told.

Impressions on the sound of the THMini15?

To me the pair being demo'd weren't enough for the venue and the SM80s easily outran them.  The TH118s definitely had a lot more punch to them, but I'm sure in the right setting the THMini15s would be a suitable choice.  It's been probably close to a decade since the last time I heard a JTR Growler, but (from memory) they sounded somewhat similar.  Not super-deep or loud but adequate for most smaller applications.  Again, that's comparing a 5min demo to a 10 year old memory, so take it with a grain of salt!
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on May 31, 2018, 10:54:26 PM
The OS80 has more low freq than the SM80, simply because it has a larger interior volume in the cabinet.

I personally say that if you are doing "hard" material (EDM-hard rock etc) you should use 4 BC415s for each J3.  Of course you can use less, it just depends on how much low end you want/need.

But when you consider that a single J3 can take the place of 16 or more line arrays and each BC415 can take the place of 6-8 double 18s, you may not need as much as you think.

I think you left out a very important word there. Shouldn't it read - a single J3 can take the place of 16 or more line arrays Elements.

A line array is made up of multiple elements or boxes. One box does not a line array make.

And while I am at it the one thing I have really liked when using GOOD line arrays is the lack of sound behind the boxes. How do the Danley boxes behave behind them?
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 31, 2018, 11:11:11 PM
Thanks Ivan, now that you mention it that's what I recall being told.

To me the pair being demo'd weren't enough for the venue and the SM80s easily outran them.  The TH118s definitely had a lot more punch to them, but I'm sure in the right setting the THMini15s would be a suitable choice.  It's been probably close to a decade since the last time I heard a JTR Growler, but (from memory) they sounded somewhat similar.  Not super-deep or loud but adequate for most smaller applications.  Again, that's comparing a 5min demo to a 10 year old memory, so take it with a grain of salt!

The TH-Mini are just that, mini.  No shame there, but to compare them to a TH-118 isn't valid.

For the size they're deceptively loud but not terribly deep.
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Keith Broughton on June 01, 2018, 06:21:12 AM
I think you left out a very important word there. Shouldn't it read - a single J3 can take the place of 16 or more line arrays Elements.

A line array is made up of multiple elements or boxes. One box does not a line array make.

And while I am at it the one thing I have really liked when using GOOD line arrays is the lack of sound behind the boxes. How do the Danley boxes behave behind them?
Having heard the J3 and spent some time listening below and behind the box, I can say the sound rejection is excellent.
As you would expect, there is some low frequency content around the box as the horn looses pattern control but not something that I would consider a problem.
The same applies to the BC218. I was stunned by how little sound was behind the sub in comparison the the output in front.

As for a more "manageable" solution for smaller companies and gigs, the SH96HO is worth considering.
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: John Halliburton on June 01, 2018, 07:52:58 AM
I think you left out a very important word there. Shouldn't it read - a single J3 can take the place of 16 or more line arrays Elements.

A line array is made up of multiple elements or boxes. One box does not a line array make.

And while I am at it the one thing I have really liked when using GOOD line arrays is the lack of sound behind the boxes. How do the Danley boxes behave behind them?

Definitely better, especially in the smaller cabinets vs what passes for a line array at gigs I've seen.  I provided sound for the Willis Family a few years ago, and they are all on IEM, and with my TD-1(now SH46) stacked on each downstage corner on my Orbit Shifter subs, I was stunned the first time I walked backstage during the show to check on things.  Incredibly quiet.

Best regards,

John
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Ivan Beaver on June 01, 2018, 08:18:40 AM
Thanks Ivan, now that you mention it that's what I recall being told.

To me the pair being demo'd weren't enough for the venue and the SM80s easily outran them.  The TH118s definitely had a lot more punch to them, but I'm sure in the right setting the THMini15s would be a suitable choice. 
For an outdoor setting, with "heavier" material, I would recommend 3 TH118s for each SM80-if you need to push the SM80 to the limit.  Many times you do not, so you don't need as many subs.

People often get "hung up" on "I can't afford that many subs to keep up with the tops".

That is the wrong way to look at it.  Look at it as, "How many subs do I need for the gig".  Then ask yourself if the tops will keep up with that many subs.

If the tops are run quieter, there is less distortion, so the sound is cleaner.

If a single TH mini15 will do the job, then the SM80 would be cruisin'.
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Ivan Beaver on June 01, 2018, 08:20:19 AM
Having heard the J3 and spent some time listening below and behind the box, I can say the sound rejection is excellent.
As you would expect, there is some low frequency content around the box as the horn looses pattern control but not something that I would consider a problem.
The same applies to the BC218. I was stunned by how little sound was behind the sub in comparison the the output in front.


Natural pattern control (without using physical or electronic cancellation) is always better sounding and more consistent.

As I often say "pattern control is your friend".
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Ivan Beaver on June 01, 2018, 08:25:08 AM
I think you left out a very important word there. Shouldn't it read - a single J3 can take the place of 16 or more line arrays Elements.

A line array is made up of multiple elements or boxes. One box does not a line array make.

And while I am at it the one thing I have really liked when using GOOD line arrays is the lack of sound behind the boxes. How do the Danley boxes behave behind them?
[/quote
Yes, I should have said "elements".

Pattern control with large horns not only controls the sound behind, but also to the sides and below/above (out of the pattern of course), so there is less spillage on stage.

Line arrays, due to their nature, put a large "donut" pattern around the middle of the line.  This puts a lot of energy on or near the stage, which means more garbage getting into the mics, so that muddies up the sound.  Then the musicians can't hear the monitors as well (assuming non IEM setup), so they ask for more monitor level, which muddies up the sound even more, and pushes closer to feedback etc.

Having a quiet stage is a good thing.
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on June 01, 2018, 09:17:55 AM
I think you left out a very important word there. Shouldn't it read - a single J3 can take the place of 16 or more line arrays Elements.

A line array is made up of multiple elements or boxes. One box does not a line array make.

And while I am at it the one thing I have really liked when using GOOD line arrays is the lack of sound behind the boxes. How do the Danley boxes behave behind them?

Yes, I should have said "elements".

Pattern control with large horns not only controls the sound behind, but also to the sides and below/above (out of the pattern of course), so there is less spillage on stage.

Line arrays, due to their nature, put a large "donut" pattern around the middle of the line.  This puts a lot of energy on or near the stage, which means more garbage getting into the mics, so that muddies up the sound.  Then the musicians can't hear the monitors as well (assuming non IEM setup), so they ask for more monitor level, which muddies up the sound even more, and pushes closer to feedback etc.

Having a quiet stage is a good thing.

I am not in any way saying that line arrays are perfect.

With the Line arrays I have had experience with (except for one) I have never experienced what you are referring to. The one that I really didn’t like was the EAW with the speakers on the sides of it, that one had the donut effect badly.

The one issue I did have was in one room because of how it had to be deployed and the shape of the room the sound hit the back wall and came back onto stage louder than I had heard from any other system. But the clarity and coverage was really good. And the slap back was livable.

I am going to again be on a d&b audiotechnik line array next Friday and I hopefully will have some time to walk around and listen for the behavior that you are describing. The first time I heard this install (outdoor venue) I was really impressed. And I am not easily impressed.     
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: John L Nobile on June 01, 2018, 09:37:40 AM

As for a more "manageable" solution for smaller companies and gigs, the SH96HO is worth considering.

I thought so as well. Makes sense for an install though I do get questioning looks from BE's and a few "not enough rig" comments before hearing it. An 8 box array/side really killed the sightlines in the room I oversee. The 96's are almost invisible in comparison. And are so much nicer to mix on.

But a rental company has to provide what's in demand and providing a box from a company that no one up here seems to know is not going to pay the bills.
Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Ivan Beaver on June 01, 2018, 10:18:21 AM
I am not in any way saying that line arrays are perfect.

With the Line arrays I have had experience with (except for one) I have never experienced what you are referring to. The one that I really didn’t like was the EAW with the speakers on the sides of it, that one had the donut effect badly.

The one issue I did have was in one room because of how it had to be deployed and the shape of the room the sound hit the back wall and came back onto stage louder than I had heard from any other system. But the clarity and coverage was really good. And the slap back was livable.

I am going to again be on a d&b audiotechnik line array next Friday and I hopefully will have some time to walk around and listen for the behavior that you are describing. The first time I heard this install (outdoor venue) I was really impressed. And I am not easily impressed.   
Here is a "kinda easy" way to experience it.

Take the line array and turn it 90*.  So that it is wider than tall.  You can do this with the "stick" lines as well.

YES, totally unusable, but this is for demo purposes.

Try to get it where the center of the boxes is somewhere around ear height.  Sitting on road cases for example.

Do this outside-free of reflections (so they don't influence what you hear).

Now play music and walk from one end of the array to the other.

You should hear the buildup in the middle. ie the "donut".

If you have a tall mic stand, take some measurement "above" the array (which would normally be the side of the array)

Do this at the ends and the middle.  You will see the build up in the middle-again the donut.  This is where all of the energy is combining (think of it as power alley with subs).

Title: Re: Danley Demo - Cocoa FL - May 16th
Post by: Marc Sibilia on June 01, 2018, 11:17:10 AM
You should hear the buildup in the middle. ie the "donut".

If you have a tall mic stand, take some measurement "above" the array (which would normally be the side of the array)

Do this at the ends and the middle.  You will see the build up in the middle-again the donut.  This is where all of the energy is combining (think of it as power alley with subs).

If you want to see a visual representation of the "donut" Ivan is referring to, take a look at Don Keele's paper:

The Full-Sphere Sound Field of Constant Beamwidth Transducer (CBT) Loudspeaker Line Arrays (http://www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com/PDF/Keele%20(2003-03%20AES%20Preprint)%20-%20CBT%20Paper3.pdf)
AES 2003

There are some nice graphics in there that illustrate the effect.

Marc