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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: David Sturzenbecher on November 10, 2013, 03:11:18 PM

Title: VRX Line Array
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on November 10, 2013, 03:11:18 PM
Perfect!

http://m.ebay.com/itm/181257604079
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Luke Geis on November 10, 2013, 03:19:17 PM
The tag should be: If you bought the wrong array and want to utilize it even more incorrectly, I have a solution for you : )
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on November 10, 2013, 03:30:32 PM
Perfect!

http://m.ebay.com/itm/181257604079

Wonder if JBL's warranty is still good if you fall for this one...
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Ivan Beaver on November 10, 2013, 03:30:50 PM
The tag should be: If you bought the wrong array and want to utilize it even more incorrectly, I have a solution for you : )
I guess as long as people "believe" they are doing something right---------well that explains a lot of our industry :(

Why let the truth get in the way.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on November 10, 2013, 05:26:32 PM


http://business.idahostatesman.com/?action=showentrydetail&dataset=1&entryid=49149
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Luke Geis on November 10, 2013, 08:52:45 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Wow!!!!! It must have literally been a couple of dudes with a VRX array. Hey I have a great idea...................now lets sell it to other silly uninformed individuals.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Tim Weaver on November 11, 2013, 04:12:37 PM
While the original use for this angle plate is pretty ludicrous, It would be handy to use one on top of a VRX sub for a ground stack. You could have the first box pointing out straight while still attached with flyware, instead of a goofy pole.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Spenser Hamilton on November 11, 2013, 06:24:37 PM
Perfect!

http://m.ebay.com/itm/181257604079

Shut up and take my money!
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Bob Leonard on November 11, 2013, 06:34:22 PM
Everyone bangs the VRX, but there's plenty of people making plenty of money using VRX. They work just fine if used and deployed as intended.

The bracket? While it solves an issue I think it might be just a tad bit expensive to throw a pair of those brackets on a hand at $569 each. Well, unless they come with gold plated happy ending.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Luke Geis on November 11, 2013, 07:55:02 PM
The VRX array is fine. I was pointing out that if your using it and need to splay it differently, your already using the wrong array. Add in the adjusters and your really in the wrong field.....
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Tim Weaver on November 11, 2013, 08:13:40 PM
The VRX array is fine. I was pointing out that if your using it and need to splay it differently, your already using the wrong array. Add in the adjusters and your really in the wrong field.....

Eggsactly.

The VRX shouldn't be used as anything other than a fixed curve array. That's why JBL doesn't make angle adjustment hardware for the VRX. You want angels? Buy Vertec.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: lionel rodrigues on January 25, 2014, 08:56:24 AM
Eggsactly.

The VRX shouldn't be used as anything other than a fixed curve array. That's why JBL doesn't make angle adjustment hardware for the VRX. You want angels? Buy Vertec.

JBL should come out with a zero angle box compatible with the vrx tops, then it's a win win for everyone.

are vrx still in production ?
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on January 25, 2014, 09:06:14 AM
JBL should come out with a zero angle box compatible with the vrx tops, then it's a win win for everyone.

are vrx still in production ?
Why?  I don't understand the drive to do that when many other products exist (4886) that actually work in that scenario.

VRX are still in production, and JBL is coming out with V5 presets for them, which should help clean up some pattern control things.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Ray Aberle on January 26, 2014, 12:23:10 AM
Shut up and take my money!
Did you notice that the ebay listing originally quoted sold for $350.00?? Amazing that people have tens of thousands of dollars of equipment, yet no clue on the basics of their configuration.... Oh well. *sighs*

Ray
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 26, 2014, 02:01:39 AM
Did you notice that the ebay listing originally quoted sold for $350.00?? Amazing that people have tens of thousands of dollars of equipment, yet no clue on the basics of their configuration.... Oh well. *sighs*

Ray

Ad a couple of zeros, maybe 3... and you can still find owners who "don't get it" when it comes to vertical arrays.  They essentially treat them as if the speakers were conventional boxes hung on their sides, with all the incorrect assumptions that go with conventional rigs.

The VRX and other constant curvature arrays are very specific tools, and they're probably the wrong tool in many of the situations they're used in.  That won't stop system owners from using them anyway and schmoozing clients with "the emperor's new PA" sell job.  Used when appropriate, you can get pretty good results for less money than a fully articulated array.  But it's still a one-trick pony.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 26, 2014, 09:36:03 AM
Ad a couple of zeros, maybe 3... and you can still find owners who "don't get it" when it comes to vertical arrays.  They essentially treat them as if the speakers were conventional boxes hung on their sides, with all the incorrect assumptions that go with conventional rigs.

The VRX and other constant curvature arrays are very specific tools, and they're probably the wrong tool in many of the situations they're used in.  That won't stop system owners from using them anyway and schmoozing clients with "the emperor's new PA" sell job.  Used when appropriate, you can get pretty good results for less money than a fully articulated array.  But it's still a one-trick pony.
I would argue that most "pa failures" are simply because the user/ "designer" simply has no clue what they are doing-how boxes interact-what coverage patten means (YEAH MANY people get that one wrong), where to aim and so forth.

I think I have to go this next week and fix a job that the customer is very unhappy with the coverage.  We asked for some photos and it was immediately apparent that the installer simply has no clue as to how the boxes work and where to aim them.

Yeah no kidding-point the box in the wrong place and it doesn't work well -DUH!!!!!!!!!!

And now you are blaming the loudspeaker??????

The people that need "Audio 101" are the ones who would not attend such a class-because they think they know it all-and constantly blame the gear for THEIR failures and lack of knowledge.

Oh well----------------------------
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Ray Aberle on January 26, 2014, 02:22:48 PM
I would argue that most "pa failures" are simply because the user/ "designer" simply has no clue what they are doing-how boxes interact-what coverage patten means (YEAH MANY people get that one wrong), where to aim and so forth.

The people that need "Audio 101" are the ones who would not attend such a class-because they think they know it all-and constantly blame the gear for THEIR failures and lack of knowledge.

Oh well----------------------------
I was exchanging emails with one of the esteemed members of this forum, as I am getting some I-Techs ready for my (finally!) expansion into VerTec, and I was double checking myself when loading V4 presets, that I didn't see any crossover points. As I suspected, they're locked down to prevent "smart" sysops from making "changes" to them-- as is my response to the local guy who builds all of his own speakers 'cos he can do it better,' -- I am not about to presume I can config a system better then the people at JBL.

I'll still have my VRX rig, and it will get used a bunch still-- because I won't just automatically go with the 4888s since they're my "big" rig now. And my SRX rig will still get used.

.... there was really no point to my post. Haha.

-Ray
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 26, 2014, 02:46:21 PM
I was exchanging emails with one of the esteemed members of this forum, as I am getting some I-Techs ready for my (finally!) expansion into VerTec, and I was double checking myself when loading V4 presets, that I didn't see any crossover points. As I suspected, they're locked down to prevent "smart" sysops from making "changes" to them-- as is my response to the local guy who builds all of his own speakers 'cos he can do it better,' -- I am not about to presume I can config a system better then the people at JBL.




-Ray
I would ask the "local guy" to show you some measurements INCLUDING PHASE to prove he can do it better.

YES there are some very smart guys out there who can do a good job.  But in most cases-it is the guys who "think" they can do better-just using their ears.

Yes listening is VERY important and can't be dismissed-but most (if not all) of the guys I have meet that say they can do a better alignment don't use any type of tools and can't prove that they do it any better-you just have to "trust" them------------------
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Bob Leonard on January 26, 2014, 03:02:39 PM
I was exchanging emails with one of the esteemed members of this forum, as I am getting some I-Techs ready for my (finally!) expansion into VerTec, and I was double checking myself when loading V4 presets, that I didn't see any crossover points. As I suspected, they're locked down to prevent "smart" sysops from making "changes" to them-- as is my response to the local guy who builds all of his own speakers 'cos he can do it better,' -- I am not about to presume I can config a system better then the people at JBL.

I'll still have my VRX rig, and it will get used a bunch still-- because I won't just automatically go with the 4888s since they're my "big" rig now. And my SRX rig will still get used.

.... there was really no point to my post. Haha.

-Ray

Actually Ray, you made the point by example. Three different rigs, each with it's own purpose to be used as required to fill a specific need or group of needs. The problem is, as already stated, not many people understand this fact of life.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Chris Jensen on January 26, 2014, 03:08:45 PM
Aside from all the coverage and interaction physics being right or wrong, isn't a box designed to only support so much weight underneath it?  I have never used a VRX but I would suspect that hanging another box from it would add more stress to the top boxes which would only be rated to hold enough to make the proper array.  As pointed out more boxes negates the tool.  Why would JBL design the enclosure for more hang such as the Vertec where you might want 4 boxes one show and 20 the next.  It seems like a waste of money to add that in to the VRX.  As I said I am unfamiliar with the rigging system so correct me if I am wrong.  I have seen many product specs that specifically say you can only array X amount underneath, I guess this is mostly point and shoot boxes though.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 26, 2014, 04:25:06 PM
Aside from all the coverage and interaction physics being right or wrong, isn't a box designed to only support so much weight underneath it?  I have never used a VRX but I would suspect that hanging another box from it would add more stress to the top boxes which would only be rated to hold enough to make the proper array.  As pointed out more boxes negates the tool.  Why would JBL design the enclosure for more hang such as the Vertec where you might want 4 boxes one show and 20 the next.  It seems like a waste of money to add that in to the VRX.  As I said I am unfamiliar with the rigging system so correct me if I am wrong.  I have seen many product specs that specifically say you can only array X amount underneath, I guess this is mostly point and shoot boxes though.

None of the JBL speakers that are designed to be flown have any weight transferred to the speaker enclosure.  All the rigging is metal to metal, and the enclosure attaches to the rigging.  Any enclosure can fail and the suspension will remain intact.

I do not know the weight limit for VRX rigging but VerTec is designed to hang >16 boxes.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Tim Weaver on January 26, 2014, 10:59:06 PM
None of the JBL speakers that are designed to be flown have any weight transferred to the speaker enclosure.  All the rigging is metal to metal, and the enclosure attaches to the rigging.  Any enclosure can fail and the suspension will remain intact.

I do not know the weight limit for VRX rigging but VerTec is designed to hang >16 boxes.

iirc VRX is rated for 6 boxes which gives you a full 90 degrees vertical. Or you can fly 4 VRX under 1 VRX sub. (might be 2 subs, but I'm a little fuzzy there.)
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Ray Aberle on February 06, 2014, 12:43:07 PM
Perfect!

http://m.ebay.com/itm/181257604079

So just for kicks and giggles, I followed up with this person, and asked them, "Isn't this a silly item? I mean, wouldn't the VRX boxes then interfere with each other if they don't have the line array curve to it?"

He replied,

Quote from: joelj8hom
Thanks for the question. If you understand line array theory, which it sounds like you do, because the distance between the low frequency drivers, which are considered omni-directional, does not change, the polar response of those drivers is unaffected. If the StraightArray bracket increased the distance between the cabinets somehow (which it does not), lobing would occur at predictable frequencies. But this is not the case.
The high frequencies are the most likely to be affected. A constant curvature line array, such as the VRX, is an attempt (that works very well I might add) to create a monopole sound source. This creates a very coherent wave front at most, if not all of the high frequencies because there is no interaction between adjacent drivers. To create the best isophasic wave front, planar line arrays use lenses on the high frequency drivers to make it "look" like these drivers are as close to one another as possible (there is a lot more to it than that as you may know). The StraightArray bracket does change the angle between the cabinets and therefore changes the characteristics of the monopole configuration, but not a great deal. This may cause lobing at certain frequencies but it is not noticeable. Let’s face it, most rooms that systems are deployed in, due to reflections caused by ceilings, walls, column, etc., lobing occurs at various frequencies that we all have to deal with. The StraightArray bracket is designed to allow a sound professional to add cabinets to the hang so more SPLs can be produced to better cover the far-field audience members. Most small to midsized sound companies do not have the resources to spend $500,000 or more (elements and amplification) on a planar line array, which makes the StraightArray bracket a great solution when more power is needed.

I feel like Ivan would have a field day with this. :)
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on February 06, 2014, 12:55:28 PM
So just for kicks and giggles, I followed up with this person, and asked them, "Isn't this a silly item? I mean, wouldn't the VRX boxes then interfere with each other if they don't have the line array curve to it?"

He replied,

I feel like Ivan would have a field day with this. :)
I actually don't have a huge problem with the intent here, and as a former owner of a constant-curve system (and a current owner of a "real" line array), certainly understand the draw of "more".  There will be some sound quality hit, but that may be (depending on how bad it really is, and I'm not qualified to comment) an acceptable tradeoff for more output.  IMO, the real issue here is the safety issues of the original design of the VRX rigging and the presumably non-engineered nature of this product.

I hope he (and the operators buying these) have good insurance.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Steve M Smith on February 06, 2014, 03:35:40 PM
So just for kicks and giggles, I followed up with this person, and asked them, "Isn't this a silly item?

Did you ask what it was made from?  The price indicates unobtanium with a seven micron coating of weapons grade balonium.


Steve.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on February 06, 2014, 04:58:43 PM
Did you ask what it was made from?  The price indicates unobtanium with a seven micron coating of weapons grade balonium.


Steve.
While I'm not disagreeing with you that this is a BS and potentially dangerous product, the price doesn't seem too far out of line.  Check the price of any flyware for reference, not to mention the high cost of small runs of parts.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: James A. Griffin on February 06, 2014, 06:18:09 PM
So just for kicks and giggles, I followed up with this person, and asked them, "Isn't this a silly item? I mean, wouldn't the VRX boxes then interfere with each other if they don't have the line array curve to it?"

He replied,

I feel like Ivan would have a field day with this. :)

I inquired as well and got the exact same answer.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Ray Aberle on February 06, 2014, 06:23:45 PM
I inquired as well and got the exact same answer.
As in a copy-and-paste?!? Interesting...

I am not confident enough in my skills with line array technology to really repute any of his statements there, but why I asked what I did was just the basic thought that if you're having issues with enough coverage for the long-distance throw... perhaps you are using the wrong box in general.

Call me crazy?!?

-Ray
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: James A. Griffin on February 06, 2014, 06:28:27 PM
Eggsactly.

The VRX shouldn't be used as anything other than a fixed curve array. That's why JBL doesn't make angle adjustment hardware for the VRX. You want angels? Buy Vertec.

+1   The VRX has 3 HF drivers, each splayed at 5 deg, giving you 15 deg per cabinet.   When you take the curve out of the system, the path of the bottom HF driver is going to cross the path of the top HF driver of the box underneath pretty quickly.   As you move out from the array, all HF drivers in the array will begin to run into each other.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 06, 2014, 06:53:07 PM
So just for kicks and giggles, I followed up with this person, and asked them, "Isn't this a silly item? I mean, wouldn't the VRX boxes then interfere with each other if they don't have the line array curve to it?"

He replied,

I feel like Ivan would have a field day with this. :)
There are a couple of "issues" here.

I do agree that it doesn't matter how good a particular loudspeaker is- if it cannot be heard.

But trying to simply add more loudspeakers to get louder is not the right approach.

You should be using the correct tool for the job. 

But trying to "excuse" sound quality for quantity does not work for me.  If you need more output-you should be using a stronger product.

How much does the sound degrade by doing this?  It depends on the listener.  Some people like the "mush" and think that it is "correct" based on their experience.

Some people will really hate it.

The level of "acceptance" of sound quality is quite wide.  Just look at all the bad audio we experience-compressed MP3s-overdriven sound systems of all sorts-computer speakers etc.

It is amazing to me that with all the advancements we have in all areas of audio (recording-loudspeakers-processing etc), I feel the overall quality of audio that is heard by the average person is worse than in years past.  I could be wrong-but that is my gut feeling.

So people are willing to accept lower "standards".

Of course products like the one in question do not help matters-deliberately sacrificing sound quality for quantity.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Art Welter on February 07, 2014, 10:38:43 AM
+1   The VRX has 3 HF drivers, each splayed at 5 deg, giving you 15 deg per cabinet.   When you take the curve out of the system, the path of the bottom HF driver is going to cross the path of the top HF driver of the box underneath pretty quickly.   As you move out from the array, all HF drivers in the array will begin to run into each other.
Correct, there will be some vertical HF interference created by the overlap between the straight array elements.
This would be evident as you move forward or backward from the array.
It would be a trade off between the usual six cabinet VRX dilemma of pointing HF uselessly in to the air (or ceiling) or floor.

It would be less of a concern to me than the built in mid range interference already created by the side by side placement of the HF horn and the LF driver.

That arrangement, by design, guarantees comb filtering (off-axis mid range suck out) in the horizontal coverage in the critical crossover frequency region.

My primary concern would be whether the rigging piece is certified for the same (or greater) loads as the JBL product carries.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Steve M Smith on February 07, 2014, 10:58:08 AM
It is amazing to me that with all the advancements we have in all areas of audio (recording-loudspeakers-processing etc), I feel the overall quality of audio that is heard by the average person is worse than in years past.  I could be wrong-but that is my gut feeling.

I agree with you.  Despite many decades of advancements in sound recording technology, some of the nicest sounding records are those from RCA and Columbia, particularly those recorded under Chet Atkins' supervision (not necessarily with him playing).

It's the same in the photographic world.  Convenience seem to win over quality now (I say that as someone who uses film in many formats).


Steve.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: John Chiara on February 07, 2014, 12:38:46 PM
There are a couple of "issues" here.

I do agree that it doesn't matter how good a particular loudspeaker is- if it cannot be heard.

But trying to simply add more loudspeakers to get louder is not the right approach.

You should be using the correct tool for the job. 

But trying to "excuse" sound quality for quantity does not work for me.  If you need more output-you should be using a stronger product.

How much does the sound degrade by doing this?  It depends on the listener.  Some people like the "mush" and think that it is "correct" based on their experience.

Some people will really hate it.

The level of "acceptance" of sound quality is quite wide.  Just look at all the bad audio we experience-compressed MP3s-overdriven sound systems of all sorts-computer speakers etc.

It is amazing to me that with all the advancements we have in all areas of audio (recording-loudspeakers-processing etc), I feel the overall quality of audio that is heard by the average person is worse than in years past.  I could be wrong-but that is my gut feeling.

So people are willing to accept lower "standards".

Of course products like the one in question do not help matters-deliberately sacrificing sound quality for quantity.

I dont think it is so much a matter of acceptance as many buyers do not have enough audio expertise to tell the difference or comment if they do tell. Plus with so much available to so many providers I think a lot of it is just a basic lack of reference by operators. I go to many shows where the FOH mixer is on a computer or their cell phone especially during opening acts where things could be pulled together. In both live audio and musicians I see, there is a great deal of laziness and/or lack of passion. IMO if you don't want to give it 100% move over or stay home.
Plus, patrons of shows who will raise hell over a flat beer or an undercooked burger will NEVER complain to a vendor about bad sound.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: drew gandy on February 07, 2014, 08:47:04 PM
Plus, patrons of shows who will raise hell over a flat beer or an undercooked burger will NEVER complain to a vendor about bad sound.

Well, a flat beer or undercooked burger are a lot easier to fix than bad sound. :)  Thank God they don't complain about the sound. 

As far as the splay adaptor, we don't really know if this is any worse than "stock" until we measure it.  I have a suspicion that it wouldn't be that bad (compared to stock).  As far as the safety, yeah, that could be another issue.   

My 2 cents. 
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Brad Weber on February 08, 2014, 10:23:40 AM
As far as the splay adaptor, we don't really know if this is any worse than "stock" until we measure it.  I have a suspicion that it wouldn't be that bad (compared to stock).  As far as the safety, yeah, that could be another issue.
Except the VRX are a constant curvature array and not intended to be used the way this aftermarket adapter works, it's sort of a solution to a problem that doesn't exist (or possibly a solution that creates new problems).
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Jason Phair on February 08, 2014, 11:28:43 AM
None of the JBL speakers that are designed to be flown have any weight transferred to the speaker enclosure.  All the rigging is metal to metal, and the enclosure attaches to the rigging.  Any enclosure can fail and the suspension will remain intact.

I do not know the weight limit for VRX rigging but VerTec is designed to hang >16 boxes.

Tim, I know you know it's 18.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 08, 2014, 01:37:26 PM
Tim, I know you know it's 18.

Could be more, depending on the design factor, could be less if the local or other authorities require a greater safety margin.

The "16" number came out of my memory, and 16 is pretty much the most we put up in a single hang.  Convenient but not fully inclusive... ;)

The point is that each product family is designed to particular limits and deviating from those is ill-advised at best, particularly if one isn't intimately familiar with the actual design criteria, methods and materials used in the creation of the speaker system suspension.  While I don't want anyone harmed, it would not disappoint me to find this bullshit item fail catastrophically and lead to lawsuits.  This is the kind of stupid shit I routinely have to dispel among folks that see these kinds of things on ebay or a youtube video.  Trying to educate someone with no expertise in mechanical engineering, but who is easily influenced by a video or advertising, is a battle worthy of Don Quixote.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on February 08, 2014, 01:39:31 PM
Could be more, depending on the design factor, could be less if the local or other authorities require a greater safety margin.

The "16" number came out of my memory, and 16 is pretty much the most we put up in a single hang.  Convenient but not fully inclusive... ;)
Depends which model you're talking about. 3 4883 + 12 4886 is the max for the little guys.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 08, 2014, 01:44:39 PM
Depends which model you're talking about. 3 4883 + 12 4886 is the max for the little guys.

Since I fly 4889 most often, that was my reference.  YMMV, etc.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: drew gandy on February 09, 2014, 01:56:33 AM
Except the VRX are a constant curvature array and not intended to be used the way this aftermarket adapter works, it's sort of a solution to a problem that doesn't exist (or possibly a solution that creates new problems).

I think my post was misunderstood and I'm not sure how to fix it. 

I'll try this and hope I don't make it worse. 

Brad, I know you've heard a VRX or 2 before.  I don't disagree with your reply but was aiming for something between:

A) VRX sound so bad to begin with that maybe this wouldn't really mess it up ;D

and
B) This isn't rocket surgery and there is a good chance that this thing WILL throw more lead vocal to the back of the room which I think is the intent of it.  Whether it combs your hair in the process might be irrelevant.  I see so many goofy ways of "doing sound" even from experienced sound dudes that this just seems like more of the same.  Further, until someone uses this arrangement (and takes valid measurements) we don't know for sure if it will be any worse than other "correct" solutions.  Every speaker has flaws (read, engineering compromises). 

Now that said, the safety aspect is definitely one to look at closely and I'm sure if a "problem" were to occur at an event, JBL would distance themselves from it very quickly.  This is not what they intended when they boxed up and shipped these speakers.  Of course we might also be able to argue that they brought it upon themselves by writing "Line Array" across the top of the cardboard box.  What do they expect people to do when they've got a "Line Array"?   ::)
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 09, 2014, 08:19:04 AM

B) This isn't rocket surgery and there is a good chance that this thing WILL throw more lead vocal to the back of the room which I think is the intent of it.  Whether it combs your hair in the process might be irrelevant.
I would argue that it is easier to "throw the vocals" with a system that has as little interference as possible.

Because with vocals it is the UNDERSTANDING that makes them clear.  So to get them clearer means less interference.

Especially at long distances.  The systems that have less interference are much clearer.

Now if you are looking for that "ice pick in the forehead" type sound-that is a different story.

So it all depends on what the "goal" is.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: drew gandy on February 09, 2014, 04:51:30 PM
I would argue that it is easier to "throw the vocals" with a system that has as little interference as possible.

Because with vocals it is the UNDERSTANDING that makes them clear.  So to get them clearer means less interference.

I'm being a bit cynical but... Who goes to a show to hear what the performers say between songs?  The way a vocal sits in a mix is different than what it needs for good intelligibility.  I agree with what you're saying but I see this thing as a "combat audio" type of device.  I mean... sometimes even Ivan stacks up SH46s to get more level (and height) for a rock show. :)

Quote
Now if you are looking for that "ice pick in the forehead" type sound...

And who isn't?!?   ;) 
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: John Chiara on February 09, 2014, 08:28:52 PM
I am putting a system in a club this month. 4 Danley TH215's and 2 Comm SLS960's.
I have been here dozens of times and this will kick butt. The last "experienced" guy I saw in the room doing a Mötley Crüe tribute had 4 QSC KW 153's over 2 KW 181's.
Go figure...
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on February 10, 2014, 05:05:47 AM
I am putting a system in a club this month. 4 Danley TH215's and 2 Comm SLS960's.
I have been here dozens of times and this will kick butt. The last "experienced" guy I saw in the room doing a Mötley Crüe tribute had 4 QSC KW 153's over 2 KW 181's.
Go figure...

That's nice... It this in the wrong topic?
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Brad Weber on February 11, 2014, 09:16:38 AM
I think my post was misunderstood and I'm not sure how to fix it. 

I'll try this and hope I don't make it worse. 

Brad, I know you've heard a VRX or 2 before.  I don't disagree with your reply but was aiming for something between:

A) VRX sound so bad to begin with that maybe this wouldn't really mess it up ;D

and
B) This isn't rocket surgery and there is a good chance that this thing WILL throw more lead vocal to the back of the room which I think is the intent of it.  Whether it combs your hair in the process might be irrelevant.  I see so many goofy ways of "doing sound" even from experienced sound dudes that this just seems like more of the same.  Further, until someone uses this arrangement (and takes valid measurements) we don't know for sure if it will be any worse than other "correct" solutions.  Every speaker has flaws (read, engineering compromises).

My point was really simply that this seemed to be a product not developed to fix a common problem or provide a solution for a common application but rather a product that does something nobody really seemed to be asking for and that goes against how the product was intended to be used.
 
The eBay ad states:
Quote
This speaker bracket enables you to attach six 932 speakers together in a useful 6-hang speaker array. Normally you can only use a maximum of four speakers due to the fixed 15 degree splay angle of the 932. With the StraightArray® speaker bracket, you can hang six of your VRX932s in one line array more like a JBL Vertec series line array for better far-field audience coverage without over powering the near-field audience members.

The VRX-AF Array Frame is apparently actually rated for up to five VRX932 in a hang, the four box limit is for ground stacked.  How does adding a 'straightening bracket' increase those numbers and are there any physical, structural or safety implications related to supporting a larger number of speakers from an Array Frame?
 
Is a straight array of VRX boxes actually a "useful array" and how was that determined?  Given that JBL did not intend the VRX932 for such use, do you really get "better far-field audience coverage without over powering the near-field audience members."?  Does simply using a 'straightening bracket' truly make a VRX932 array like a Vertec array?
 
Basically, I see a bunch of claims, some of which seem questionable and none of which seem to have any support.  It would be interesting to hear from anyone who has actually tried these.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: James A. Griffin on February 11, 2014, 09:22:36 AM
A) VRX sound so bad to begin with that maybe this wouldn't really mess it up ;D

Compared to what?   The VRX is made for a specific application at a specific price point.     4 per side hanging from trusses or lifts can deliver a pretty decent show.    Lots of folks - many on PSW - have done it and are doing it every day.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: drew gandy on February 12, 2014, 12:59:25 AM
Brad, I think we're mostly on the same page.  And I apologize if I've come across argumentative at all in my posts the past few days (maybe I'm not getting enough fresh air?).


My point was really simply that this seemed to be a product not developed to fix a common problem or provide a solution for a common application but rather a product that does something nobody really seemed to be asking for and that goes against how the product was intended to be used.

Well,  I can see how a sound company who has VRX in stock as their "flagship" speaker system might be tempted to buy some of these for those handful of gigs where they need a little more level at the far seats.  Instead of renting a better solution for the gig they are inclined to "invest" in something that can let them use the system they already have.  I don't know that it's a solution that nobody asked for.  Check out TJ's comments earlier in this thread.  I'm familiar with looking at gigs that are on the edge of your capabilities and calling in a "bigger rig" might mean no profit or maybe creating other issues.  All that to say I can certainly imagine some VRX folks who will see this and go "wow, that might be just what I need!"

Quote
Is a straight array of VRX boxes actually a "useful array" and how was that determined?  Given that JBL did not intend the VRX932 for such use, do you really get "better far-field audience coverage without over powering the near-field audience members."?  Does simply using a 'straightening bracket' truly make a VRX932 array like a Vertec array?

These are the questions that I don't think we can answer without actually measuring the setup.  That's really the point I was trying to make.  I'm not willing to call it a dud until I've heard it and measured it.  And since JBL has not published much in the way of polars or other data for the VRX to gauge the control group, I can see how the guys making the "straightening brackets" might not have an easy way of showing that their invention doesn't disrupt "the delicate balance" of the original design. 

As far as allowing you to hang more boxes [safely] than the JBL specs state, I.... no idea... how... why would... can this be.... please don't.  The safety issue is the biggest issue here.  But perhaps they've had a mechanical engineer sign off on them?   

Quote
It would be interesting to hear from anyone who has actually tried these.

I agree.  But this is not an invitation to ignore the potential safety issues!!!

Quote from: James A. Griffin
Compared to what?   The VRX is made for a specific application at a specific price point.     4 per side hanging from trusses or lifts can deliver a pretty decent show.    Lots of folks - many on PSW - have done it and are doing it every day.

Exactly; compared to what!?!  :D I don't know that VRX with this array adaptor would be significantly worse than any other comparably priced solution for live music.   Tim, how much would it cost to rent a "better" solution from your JBL inventory?  Would a nice line of 4886 be loud enough to compete with 5 or 6 boxes of VRX? 

btw, I put in the grinning emoticon because I meant that line about VRX sounding bad mostly as a joke.  JBL did a few things quite well with the line but I have to say that VRX is not my first choice for live music.  It does have it's issues (engineering compromises).  For instance, I think it tends to sound bright and a bit brash straight out of the box.  Those who use them on a routine basis obviously figure out ways of taming it.  (I use 932s at least a dozen times a year moistly for talking head stuff and so I'm not sure I count.) 
 
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on February 12, 2014, 07:30:41 AM

Well,  I can see how a sound company who has VRX in stock as their "flagship" speaker system might be tempted to buy some of these for those handful of gigs where they need a little more level at the far seats.  Instead of renting a better solution for the gig they are inclined to "invest" in something that can let them use the system they already have.  I don't know that it's a solution that nobody asked for.  Check out TJ's comments earlier in this thread.  I'm familiar with looking at gigs that are on the edge of your capabilities and calling in a "bigger rig" might mean no profit or maybe creating other issues.  All that to say I can certainly imagine some VRX folks who will see this and go "wow, that might be just what I need!"
Yep.  It costs a lot less to use your own gear than to rent something else, and it's a lot cheaper to buy another box or two than a complete larger system - hence the temptation for products like this.

Half of the posts on this forum are about folks trying to do things cheaper - an understandable desire considering the incredible cost of capital in this business - particularly the lounge.  Unfortunately the low hanging fruit has been eaten long ago, and pretty much every sound company looks the same - lots of gear, lots of infrastructure, etc. - because that's what it takes to do the job.  This product, safety aside, purports to turn VRX into what every VRX owner wished they had - a "real line array".  If it worked (and was safe), it would be more popular than Viagra on this forum.


Exactly; compared to what!?!  :D I don't know that VRX with this array adaptor would be significantly worse than any other comparably priced solution for live music.   Tim, how much would it cost to rent a "better" solution from your JBL inventory?  Would a nice line of 4886 be loud enough to compete with 5 or 6 boxes of VRX? 
I upgraded from EAW JFL210s to Vertec 4886/4883.  On demo day, we had my EAWs, VRX, and 4886/4883 side by side.  The performance difference between systems is not small.  1 for 1, 4886 has significantly more output and much better pattern consistency than VRX.  If you're comparing line length, it takes 1.5 4886 to be the same height as 1 VRX, so a 5 box VRX hang would be about the same length as 8 4886.  I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb to say that 8 4886 would have SIGNIFICANTLY more capability than a McGuyvered VRX rig.  :) 

The purchase or rental cost of a 4886 system would be similarly SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive than a VRX system.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: drew gandy on February 12, 2014, 02:40:22 PM
If it worked (and was safe), it would be more popular than Viagra on this forum.

Is Viagra popular on this forum?  (I wasn't aware there was a problem among sound people.;) 


Quote
I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb to say that 8 4886 would have SIGNIFICANTLY more capability than a McGuyvered VRX rig.  :) 

The purchase or rental cost of a 4886 system would be similarly SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive than a VRX system.

Thanks TJ for the comments.   I've never used 4886 and just threw it out because I knew it was the small box in the Vertec line.  Looking at the specs now I see that the 4886 is a MUCH smaller box and I have a hard time thinking that it can keep up with VRX932 at the low end of the spectrum (2 6-1/2" drivers vs 1-12")  Of course, once you stack a bunch up the low end adds and the highs become the "problem".  I am also curious about the pattern consistency you mentioned.  I've never noticed a problem between VRX boxes in the vertical (it's harder to notice unless you turn the boxes sideways) but have noticed that the horizontal is not completely even (as Art alluded to).  The 4886 is specified as 110 degrees vs 100 for the VRX.  Any additional comments about the pattern? 
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on February 12, 2014, 03:32:49 PM
Thanks TJ for the comments.   I've never used 4886 and just threw it out because I knew it was the small box in the Vertec line.  Looking at the specs now I see that the 4886 is a MUCH smaller box and I have a hard time thinking that it can keep up with VRX932 at the low end of the spectrum (2 6-1/2" drivers vs 1-12")  Of course, once you stack a bunch up the low end adds and the highs become the "problem".  I am also curious about the pattern consistency you mentioned.  I've never noticed a problem between VRX boxes in the vertical (it's harder to notice unless you turn the boxes sideways) but have noticed that the horizontal is not completely even (as Art alluded to).  The 4886 is specified as 110 degrees vs 100 for the VRX.  Any additional comments about the pattern?
4886 has significantly better pattern consistency than VRX in the horizontal plane.  JBL released V5 presets for VRX that I'm told help a lot with that.

I am not sure off the top of my head about LF comparison between 4886 and VRX, but I am pretty confident they are comparable.  Considering that normally you deploy the 4883 sub modules with 4886, it is a non-issue.  That being said, 4886 has no trouble down to 80Hz, which may be where your subs start, so the system components you would choose are application dependent.  4886/4883 exceeds VRX in every way, including price.  :)
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: drew gandy on February 12, 2014, 03:44:37 PM
Would you happen to know what this is? 

Quote from: 4886 spec sheet
Low frequency diffraction absorber eliminates cavity resonance and cabinet edge diffraction effects
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 12, 2014, 03:50:20 PM
Would you happen to know what this is?

I'm pretty sure that's the MOJO...
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: drew gandy on February 12, 2014, 03:53:01 PM
I'm pretty sure that's the MOJO...

So... if you had a broken MOJO and need to replace it.... would it be hard to get to?  Is it easy to remove and does JBL stock replacements? 
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 12, 2014, 04:09:21 PM
So... if you had a broken MOJO and need to replace it.... would it be hard to get to?  Is it easy to remove and does JBL stock replacements?

Pretty sure you have to go down to Louisiana...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEFPQWK--rc
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Ray Aberle on February 12, 2014, 04:23:40 PM
So... if you had a broken MOJO and need to replace it.... would it be hard to get to?  Is it easy to remove and does JBL stock replacements?
Yes, they have replacements (http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/jbl_professional_introduces_vtx_v20_line_array_and_s25_subwoofer/news)... For the right price, you can buy anything! :D

But back to the VRX discussion, did you notice that a Line Array Calculator has now been released for the VRX models? I couldn't find the splay adapter as an option in there, though. Heh.

-Ray
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on February 12, 2014, 06:11:25 PM

Yes, they have replacements (http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/jbl_professional_introduces_vtx_v20_line_array_and_s25_subwoofer/news)... For the right price, you can buy anything! :D

But back to the VRX discussion, did you notice that a Line Array Calculator has now been released for the VRX models? I couldn't find the splay adapter as an option in there, though. Heh.

-Ray

I saw that the other day as well, and played around a little. The results with a typical venue were less then impressive.... Maybe my mythical venue was just not the right application but the polars didn't seem to play nice.

I will also jump in and say that a properly deployed 4886 is far superior to a 932 rig in every aspect. Output, coverage,  consistency, quality.  I've used them as L/R hangs in small venues to stage front fills and outfills for A Level Artists.

Ok, I'll bite my tongue.... The 4886 has pretty poor rigging. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Thomas Le on June 06, 2014, 10:34:35 AM
Looks like someone got suckered in to buying them...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0M_82jOgBs
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Ray Aberle on June 06, 2014, 11:32:29 AM
Looks like someone got suckered in to buying them...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0M_82jOgBs

I think our general consensus last fall was that it might not sound AWESOME, it may also not sound TOO BAD....

-Ray
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Samuel Rees on June 06, 2014, 12:28:53 PM

Is Viagra popular on this forum?  (I wasn't aware there was a problem among sound people.;) 


Thanks TJ for the comments.   I've never used 4886 and just threw it out because I knew it was the small box in the Vertec line.  Looking at the specs now I see that the 4886 is a MUCH smaller box and I have a hard time thinking that it can keep up with VRX932 at the low end of the spectrum (2 6-1/2" drivers vs 1-12")  Of course, once you stack a bunch up the low end adds and the highs become the "problem".  I am also curious about the pattern consistency you mentioned.  I've never noticed a problem between VRX boxes in the vertical (it's harder to notice unless you turn the boxes sideways) but have noticed that the horizontal is not completely even (as Art alluded to).  The 4886 is specified as 110 degrees vs 100 for the VRX.  Any additional comments about the pattern?

The 4886's two sixes have a bit less surface area than one twelve (~40%), but they are handling a much smaller band! The VRX is just a two way box while the 4886. So I don't think it's reasonable to be comparing a the VRX 12" to the 4886 two 6.5" apples to apples. I think look at the 4886s two 6.5" and four 2.5" compared to the VRX single 12" is a closer comparison.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on June 06, 2014, 12:52:12 PM
The 4886's two sixes have a bit less surface area than one twelve (~40%), but they are handling a much smaller band! The VRX is just a two way box while the 4886. So I don't think it's reasonable to be comparing a the VRX 12" to the 4886 two 6.5" apples to apples. I think look at the 4886s two 6.5" and four 2.5" compared to the VRX single 12" is a closer comparison.
A typical 4886 deployment on sticks is 3 4886 per side. There is no shortage of output compared to VRX. The difference is not subtle.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Samuel Rees on June 06, 2014, 12:55:26 PM
I'm sure that's true, Tom. I think Drew's assumption about the VRX having bigger LF drivers than the 4886, which caused him not to consider it, were bad assumptions and not really thought out.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Tim McCulloch on June 06, 2014, 12:57:30 PM
A typical 4886 deployment on sticks is 3 4886 per side. There is no shortage of output compared to VRX. The difference is not subtle.

And 4886 sounds better, too.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Michael Gorecki on June 06, 2014, 01:14:42 PM
A buddy of mine saw this the other day at a festival.

I thought it was appropriate in this thread.


(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/07/za9u5a4u.jpg)


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Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: James A. Griffin on June 06, 2014, 01:15:34 PM
A buddy of mine saw this the other day at a festival.

I thought it was appropriate in this thread.


(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/07/za9u5a4u.jpg)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Most of the audience is in the trees?
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Taylor Hall on June 06, 2014, 01:17:30 PM
Must be in Colorado where everyone's high as a kite
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on June 06, 2014, 01:19:20 PM
Just saw the new mailer from GC.  They are specifically advertising the VRX as a line array!
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Ivan Beaver on June 06, 2014, 01:42:32 PM
A buddy of mine saw this the other day at a festival.

I thought it was appropriate in this thread.


(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/07/za9u5a4u.jpg)
And THAT is exactly what is wrong with so much of our industry.

Anybody can go by gear and "claim" they know how to use it.

And somebody will actually pay them for their "services".

It does not mean you actually do know what you  are doing.

It is sad, but in many cases people think that somebody who can "get sound out of a system" knows what they are doing----------

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Marjan Milosevic on June 06, 2014, 06:14:24 PM
I will not argue about how wrong that bracket thing is in terms of safety, but i dont see that acoustically it will make more problems then any other 15 degree box that has adjustable angle rigging.
Take D&B Q1 as an example, it is also a 16 degree box. I dont see anyone complaining here about the crossfire of the hf when boxes are flat.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on June 21, 2014, 08:05:10 AM
As seen on PA of the day.


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Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on June 21, 2014, 08:20:17 AM
As seen on PA of the day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That picture hurts my ears...
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: eric lenasbunt on June 21, 2014, 05:46:02 PM
That is one of the worst things I've seen in some time...
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Ray Aberle on June 21, 2014, 05:59:05 PM
That is one of the worst things I've seen in some time...

I'm just trying to grasp the thought process behind setting that up. I mean, really… why? You're not gonna get more coverage any direction… just a mumble of mush. *sighs*

-Ray "running 2 over 2 VRX per side right now at an event (http://www.prideasia.org)" Aberle
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Nathan DePaulo on June 21, 2014, 11:59:10 PM
I'm just trying to grasp the thought process behind setting that up. I mean, really… why? You're not gonna get more coverage any direction… just a mumble of mush. *sighs*

-Ray "running 2 over 2 VRX per side right now at an event (http://www.prideasia.org)" Aberle

It tickles me to imagine the FOH guy saying to the stagehand as he's hanging those VRXs side-by-side, "Hey hey hey, what are you doing?! The horns need to be right up next to each other!" 
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: drew gandy on June 22, 2014, 11:58:07 AM
It tickles me to imagine the FOH guy saying to the stagehand as he's hanging those VRXs side-by-side, "Hey hey hey, what are you doing?! The horns need to be right up next to each other!"
I'll bet it has some SIZZLE directly on axis!  That's a lot of comp driver pointed in one direction..

I'm sure that's true, Tom. I think Drew's assumption about the VRX having bigger LF drivers than the 4886, which caused him not to consider it, were bad assumptions and not really thought out.

No, I was thinking about low frequency output (you know, below 250hz or so).  The sd x xmax is a large predictor of output potential. [output in midrange is largely thermally limited whereas low frequency is a mix of excursion and thermal] I have no doubt that the 4886 sound better and seems louder over the rest of the range (probably vocals especially) but I'm having a hard time seeing it put out more dBs, box for box, at the bottom end.  As was pointed out, the 4886 is likely to be deployed in larger numbers (like a "real" line array) whereas the VRX is more of a utility box (deploy as many as the customer will pay for...) so it's more of an apples to oranges kind of thing. 
Title: VRX Line Array
Post by: Samuel Rees on June 22, 2014, 03:00:11 PM
I'm pretty skeptical of the assertion about box for box SPL performance below 250. You talk about excursion, but don't mention any real specs of the actual driver in the VRX vs the vertec. It's not as though driver diameter is a conclusive predictor of output. I'm not qualified to say exactly what the case is here, but I'm very skeptical of your explanation.

Not to mention the value of "more output below 250". We're hoping for flat, right? Maybe I'm not following you, please feel to explain.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on June 22, 2014, 09:57:58 PM
I'm pretty skeptical of the assertion about box for box SPL performance below 250. You talk about excursion, but don't mention any real specs of the actual driver in the VRX vs the vertec. It's not as though driver diameter is a conclusive predictor of output. I'm not qualified to say exactly what the case is here, but I'm very skeptical of your explanation.

Not to mention the value of "more output below 250". We're hoping for flat, right? Maybe I'm not following you, please feel to explain.
It's hard to tell what assumptions the calculators make, but here's a composite picture from the various LAC tools.  The graph is at 1 meter.  The VRX tool says that the graph indicates preset output, and I selected V5 long throw for 4886.  Selecting max output for 4886 gives a chunk more SPL.

I will say from experience, that 4886 is louder than VRX broadband (3 4886 vs 2 VRX). 
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Ray Aberle on June 22, 2014, 11:51:26 PM
It's hard to tell what assumptions the calculators make, but here's a composite picture from the various LAC tools.  The graph is at 1 meter.  The VRX tool says that the graph indicates preset output, and I selected V5 long throw for 4886.  Selecting max output for 4886 gives a chunk more SPL.

I will say from experience, that 4886 is louder than VRX broadband (3 4886 vs 2 VRX).
Tom, you went with a 4886/4883 combination, right?

-Ray
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on June 23, 2014, 09:03:21 AM
Tom, you went with a 4886/4883 combination, right?

-Ray
Yep.  My usual system is 3x4886 over 1x4883 over 1xTH118 per side.  I have two partner companies in the city that I can cross-rent additional boxes from.  Attached is a picture of the event I just completed - 100 x 220' room (we used about 100' x 120') with 500 high school students.

I run the 4886/120Hz preset, the 4883 60Hz - 120Hz preset, and the TH118s I think to about 85 or 90Hz (group-fed).  I was watching the limiters on the ITechs and I had about 10dB left on the 4886 and 4883, and was occasionally maxed out on the TH118s.  Next year I will be bringing another pair of TH118. 
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: eric lenasbunt on June 23, 2014, 01:11:42 PM

I'm just trying to grasp the thought process behind setting that up. I mean, really… why? You're not gonna get more coverage any direction… just a mumble of mush. *sighs*

-Ray "running 2 over 2 VRX per side right now at an event (http://www.prideasia.org)" Aberle

I have no problem with the VRX, not my favorite, but great for a lot of projects.

I do have a problem with deploying them in such a ridiculous fashion.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: eric lenasbunt on June 23, 2014, 01:13:26 PM

I'll bet it has some SIZZLE directly on axis!  That's a lot of comp driver pointed in one direction..

I've NEVER heard VRX boxes and thought, "man I wish I could hear more of that sweet horn sound"
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Ray Aberle on June 23, 2014, 01:16:31 PM
I have no problem with the VRX, not my favorite, but great for a lot of projects.

I do have a problem with deploying them in such a ridiculous fashion.

Being mainly a Harman house, and not wanting to keep buying loads more speakers until business can support it... the VRX boxes are my go to utility box for when something needs more then 450s but either need them flown, thus negating SRX (4x725) or can't justify the size/cost of VerTec (16x4888).

-Ray
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: jasonfinnigan on June 23, 2014, 07:45:11 PM
I'm pretty sure this isn't true but, another local sound engineer told me that I could get 6 per side of the JBL VRX932LAP along with the VRX 18 subs or STX dual 18" and would be able to get as much coverage and output as I would with two-three EAW 850EFs per side? I'm thinking that's not true, I don't seem them going anywhere near as loud as the EAW 850EFs to keep up with an outdoor festival for 2,500 people at least (3 per side 850EF can do almost 4,000 I've been told by most in a medium sized area) Any thoughts on that? I just don't seem them doing that.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Brian Jojade on June 23, 2014, 08:10:29 PM
A buddy of mine saw this the other day at a festival.

I thought it was appropriate in this thread.


(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/07/za9u5a4u.jpg)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah, why did they stack the SRX728's on their sides?  What were they thinking??
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Ray Aberle on June 23, 2014, 08:11:41 PM
I'm pretty sure this isn't true but, another local sound engineer told me that I could get 6 per side of the JBL VRX932LAP along with the VRX 18 subs or STX dual 18" and would be able to get as much coverage and output as I would with two-three EAW 850EFs per side? I'm thinking that's not true, I don't seem them going anywhere near as loud as the EAW 850EFs to keep up with an outdoor festival for 2,500 people at least (3 per side 850EF can do almost 4,000 I've been told by most in a medium sized area) Any thoughts on that? I just don't seem them doing that.
I am one of seven people on this board who has not actually used any of the KF850 variants... so, I have no opinion on the comparison. But, a 6 box hang of VRX is gonna be 90° vertical-- so straight down to straight out. You'd need to get them up pretty high to not be wasting the bottom 2 boxes per hang. (And then you negate the need for front fills!)

-Ray
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Art Welter on June 23, 2014, 08:34:00 PM
I'm pretty sure this isn't true but, another local sound engineer told me that I could get 6 per side of the JBL VRX932LAP along with the VRX 18 subs or STX dual 18" and would be able to get as much coverage and output as I would with two-three EAW 850EFs per side?
Jason,

Aside from how they would each be arrayed (six of the VRX make a 90 x 100 HF pattern, the EAW HF pattern would be around 110 x 40 degrees), from a sensitivity standpoint the 6 JBL 12" would be about equal the two EAW 15. Assuming we use the JBL peak power rating of 1725 watts x 6=10,350, assuming the EAW's are powered with around 2000 watts per driver = 4000 watts, so the JBLs could be a bit more than 3 dB louder, though take away the peak rating and they are about the same.

Art
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Tim McCulloch on June 23, 2014, 09:21:06 PM
I'm pretty sure this isn't true but, another local sound engineer told me that I could get 6 per side of the JBL VRX932LAP along with the VRX 18 subs or STX dual 18" and would be able to get as much coverage and output as I would with two-three EAW 850EFs per side? I'm thinking that's not true, I don't seem them going anywhere near as loud as the EAW 850EFs to keep up with an outdoor festival for 2,500 people at least (3 per side 850EF can do almost 4,000 I've been told by most in a medium sized area) Any thoughts on that? I just don't seem them doing that.

I have heard 4/side VRX932 with lots of subby, and it sounded like a small box being pushed very, very hard. This in a 5,000 capacity auditorium that was sold as floor-only (about 2000 seats) for a gospel show.  I was very glad it wasn't my gig or rig.

While I consider myself to be a KF850 n00b, I have no problem believing that horizontal coverage aside, 2 850s would simply stomp the 4 VRX, especially in the mids.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: jasonfinnigan on June 23, 2014, 09:26:58 PM
I have heard 4/side VRX932 with lots of subby, and it sounded like a small box being pushed very, very hard. This in a 5,000 capacity auditorium that was sold as floor-only (about 2000 seats) for a gospel show.  I was very glad it wasn't my gig or rig.

While I consider myself to be a KF850 n00b, I have no problem believing that horizontal coverage aside, 2 850s would simply stomp the 4 VRX, especially in the mids.

That's kinda what I figure. He's one of those "dj" turn in to a sound guy.. and we all know how they are, He's probably pushing the boxes so hard the can in fact get as loud as the 850 but whole lack any clarity/intelligibility at that point.. I would be nice however if someone steped up to the plate a made a modern box that had the same power has the EAW 850 but I guess everyone want's a sexy line array now any one with good volume is going to be starting at like $50-$75k imo.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Ray Aberle on June 23, 2014, 09:31:21 PM
That's kinda what I figure. He's one of those "dj" turn in to a sound guy.. and we all know how they are, He's probably pushing the boxes so hard the can in fact get as loud as the 850 but whole lack any clarity/intelligibility at that point.. I would be nice however if someone steped up to the plate a made a modern box that had the same power has the EAW 850 but I guess everyone want's a sexy line array now any one with good volume is going to be starting at like $50-$75k imo.

Meh. Your Line Array is just another tool in the box. If you're just using it everywhere cos it's what's "Sexy," then you need to re-think your business model. Use the best took for the job, not what's sexy or what makes you the most money.

-Ray "upgrading an 8 year client to 5/side VT4888 cos they're sexier than 725s" Aberle
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Tim McCulloch on June 23, 2014, 09:40:46 PM
Meh. Your Line Array is just another tool in the box. If you're just using it everywhere cos it's what's "Sexy," then you need to re-think your business model. Use the best took for the job, not what's sexy or what makes you the most money.

-Ray "upgrading an 8 year client to 5/side VT4888 cos they're sexier than 725s" Aberle

My employer expects me to maximize revenue and most customers seem to prefer to give up more $$ for the sexy vertical thingy.  Fine by me unless the choice is stupendously wrong (or impractical), and then we'll try to steer them to the conventional rigs and save them a few ducats, too.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Ray Aberle on June 23, 2014, 09:50:54 PM
My employer expects me to maximize revenue and most customers seem to prefer to give up more $$ for the sexy vertical thingy.  Fine by me unless the choice is stupendously wrong (or impractical), and then we'll try to steer them to the conventional rigs and save them a few ducats, too.
Oh yeah, I totally agree. I should have been more specific: If you're pushing someone towards a line array because it will bring in the most money AND be detrimental to the quality of the event. Yes, if an event can handle it, both fiscally and in the system design, awesome, but if you're specing an 8 box hang of 88s in a small hotel ballroom (say 50' wide by 115' deep) just because they'll do it, well that's what I was talking about silly choices.

-Ray
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: jason misterka on June 23, 2014, 09:55:15 PM
That's kinda what I figure. He's one of those "dj" turn in to a sound guy.. and we all know how they are, He's probably pushing the boxes so hard the can in fact get as loud as the 850 but whole lack any clarity/intelligibility at that point.. I would be nice however if someone steped up to the plate a made a modern box that had the same power has the EAW 850 but I guess everyone want's a sexy line array now any one with good volume is going to be starting at like $50-$75k imo.

Someone did. We were one of the few that bought them. TurboSound Aspect 880.  Recently discontinued :(
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: jasonfinnigan on June 23, 2014, 09:59:35 PM
Someone did. We were one of the few that bought them. TurboSound Aspect 880.  Recently discontinued :(

True. We have the Turbosound TA-880H readily available to cross rent to us. Never used them though. Sad thing is even if you stumble upon a used buy it's usually around $11,000 per box.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Bob Leonard on June 23, 2014, 10:02:47 PM
Yeah, why did they stack the SRX728's on their sides?  What were they thinking??

I don't think stacking the 728s on their side will really hurt, but it must be pretty loud for all of the aircraft flying by. Looking at the picture, and if it could be done correctly, you would think as a last resort the cabinets could have been hung from the truss in the background. Not to mention that a little prior planning could have pout the truss up at the front of the stage. We should have a section on PSW called laugh of the day.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Brian Jojade on June 24, 2014, 12:03:54 PM
I don't think stacking the 728s on their side will really hurt, but it must be pretty loud for all of the aircraft flying by. Looking at the picture, and if it could be done correctly, you would think as a last resort the cabinets could have been hung from the truss in the background. Not to mention that a little prior planning could have pout the truss up at the front of the stage. We should have a section on PSW called laugh of the day.

Of course putting the 728's on their side wouldn't hurt, but WHY did they do that?  They have nice little feet that recess into themselves, and the handles make them easy to stack.  But I guess since they actually deployed the VRX cabinets the way they did, stacking the cabinets would be asking too much.
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Rick Powell on June 24, 2014, 12:32:13 PM
Yeah, why did they stack the SRX728's on their sides?  What were they thinking??

Do the limbo rock, mon!
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: drew gandy on June 24, 2014, 01:32:03 PM
it must be pretty loud for all of the aircraft flying by.

Wait, aircraft?  I was thinking hot air balloon rides. Or tree climbers.  Anybody ever hear the story of Zacchaeus? 
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: Tim McCulloch on June 24, 2014, 02:14:59 PM
Wait, aircraft?  I was thinking hot air balloon rides. Or tree climbers.  Anybody ever hear the story of Zacchaeus?

I think they're trying to give some ambiance to Icarus...
Title: Re: VRX Line Array
Post by: drew gandy on June 24, 2014, 10:35:44 PM
I think they're trying to give some ambiance to Icarus...

See, there's a whole host of scenarios where that deployment makes sense.  We just don't see it from the picture.   :P