ProSoundWeb Community
Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board => Topic started by: Doug Fowler on March 27, 2014, 04:53:01 PM
-
http://m.imgur.com/a/1U2oM
Couldn't get the image to appear using my phone, will someone do it please?
-
(http://i.imgur.com/ndnkUyZ.jpg)
I've wanted to put that phrase on a shirt for a while now :D
-
http://m.imgur.com/a/1U2oM
Couldn't get the image to appear using my phone, will someone do it please?
The Funktion One VERO, for your dining and dancing pleasure.
(http://i.imgur.com/EKpA4LHh.jpg)
-
Hey duz any1 have plans for the F1 sub? I got some wiked woofers from my friend's car I want to use.
-
They'll never get it in the truck like that!
Steve.
-
You just need a longer truck. Or one with a biiiiiiiiig sunroof
-
They'll never get it in the truck like that!
Steve.
Try this...
and if you look closely you can see there are at least 3 different boxes with red, blue and yellow handles. It appears that each may contain different speaker / driver combinations, as such it’s not your typical line array …but Tony will have some explaining to do :)
-
With that curved face, it must have a 140 degree pattern?
I've yet to hear a F1 product sound good-even at a Tony Andrews setup demo in a theater here in NYC.
Yet all the big party promoters blindly ask for the stuff-as if they know everything about concert audio.
-
Yet all the big party promoters blindly ask for the stuff-as if they know everything about concert audio.
The look reminds them of the old days. Old enough that some of the party promoters weren't yet born...
Is Systems by Shorty still around?
-
With that curved face, it must have a 140 degree pattern?
I've yet to hear a F1 product sound good-even at a Tony Andrews setup demo in a theater here in NYC.
Yet all the big party promoters blindly ask for the stuff-as if they know everything about concert audio.
Funktion 1 and KV2 are both big in the EDM circuit in the PNW. I remember someone telling me a couple of years ago that "KV2, hands down, is the best sounding system without going to a line array," without taking into consideration silly things like the right tool for the job, etc etc.
-Ray
-
Is Systems by Shorty still around?
HOLY HELL that's funny! BUT-would you believe the answer to this question is yes?
There is an art to dazzling them with bullshit.
-
Try this...
and if you look closely you can see there are at least 3 different boxes with red, blue and yellow handles. It appears that each may contain different speaker / driver combinations, as such it’s not your typical line array …but Tony will have some explaining to do :)
I'd imagine they took a Clair style approach, with each color being a different vertical pattern. Though I could be entirely wrong.
Evan
-
One giant, 20' long horn that would need a phase plug of about 16' in length X 10' diameter. It'll honk worse than the piezo horns on my Quads.
If they stack 4 high on a cart, why would they want to hang 17 boxes, seems like an odd configuration, assuming the vertical pattern is horn dependent rather than dependent on the length of the line????
-
I'd imagine they took a Clair style approach, with each color being a different vertical pattern. Though I could be entirely wrong.
Evan
I suspect you are correct...
-
In this article of October 2013 Mr. Andrews admits line arrays go up "faster".
http://www.audioprointernational.com/news/read/best-of-british-funktion-one-still-flying-the-flag/06479
Yet in this piece dated 2004 he states this is not the case.
http://www.funktion-one.com/news/line-array-nice-but-dim/
What has changed?
-
What has changed?
The trends of people buying loudspeakers?
-
In this article of October 2013 Mr. Andrews admits line arrays go up "faster".
http://www.audioprointernational.com/news/read/best-of-british-funktion-one-still-flying-the-flag/06479
Yet in this piece dated 2004 he states this is not the case.
http://www.funktion-one.com/news/line-array-nice-but-dim/
What has changed?
time .... it's 9 years later
-
In this article of October 2013 Mr. Andrews admits line arrays go up "faster".
http://www.audioprointernational.com/news/read/best-of-british-funktion-one-still-flying-the-flag/06479
Yet in this piece dated 2004 he states this is not the case.
http://www.funktion-one.com/news/line-array-nice-but-dim/
What has changed?
Ah, you have hit upon the universal truth of buying loudspeaker systems (or pretty much any systems) that I constantly remind people of:
Nobody buys PA because it sounds good.
As long as it sounds halfway decent, then you buy it because:
- It rigs quickly
- It packs in the truck nice
- Its the right size & weight
- Its got the right dispersion for the application
- You have a good relationship with the dealer
- You can subhire it from the guy down the road easily
- Its cheap to run
- Its got the right brand name for the client
- You already had some other stuff by the same people
- You didn't want to have to change your amps/cabling/processor
- It looks pretty
- The dealer bought you lots of beers
- etc....
This is why line arrays won. Because they are far more practical than big point source systems. Its that simple. They didnt have to sound better to win, because actually, as long as they sound OK, people buy them for all the other business reasons that have nothing to do with sound quality.
-
Ah, you have hit upon the universal truth of buying loudspeaker systems (or pretty much any systems) that I constantly remind people of:
Nobody buys PA because it sounds good.
As long as it sounds halfway decent, then you buy it because:
- It rigs quickly
- It packs in the truck nice
- Its the right size & weight
- Its got the right dispersion for the application
- You have a good relationship with the dealer
- You can subhire it from the guy down the road easily
- Its cheap to run
- Its got the right brand name for the client
- You already had some other stuff by the same people
- You didn't want to have to change your amps/cabling/processor
- It looks pretty
- The dealer bought you lots of beers
- etc....
This is why line arrays won. Because they are far more practical than big point source systems. Its that simple. They didnt have to sound better to win, because actually, as long as they sound OK, people buy them for all the other business reasons that have nothing to do with sound quality.
Couldn't agree more but it's when the little guy tries to do it on no budget the whole thing falls flat on it's arse.
-
Those springback handles will rattle someday, probably sooner than later.
It's like looking a 1990's F1 car: impressive in the flesh, great for its day, but alot has changed performance-wise since.
Tony is no doubt charging premium cash for rather pedestrian tech. A cult-ish thing...like BOSE?!
-
This is why line arrays won. Because they are far more practical than big point source systems. Its that simple. They didnt have to sound better to win, because actually, as long as they sound OK, people buy them for all the other business reasons that have nothing to do with sound quality.
As with most things today, convenience wins out over quality.
That's why MP3 files are more popular than CDs or vinyl, digital imaging is more popular than film, etc, etc.
Steve.
-
convenience wins out over quality.
Let us not conflate the concepts of "convenience" and "efficiency".
People will pay a premium for convenience.
Efficiency (should) bring costs down so more people will pay.
The depth of the VERO boxes suggests that Tony A. has some arrangement of proprietary waveguides in there that dip into the mid frequencies.
In the earliest days of some manufacturers kneejerk response to V-DOSC, we saw a share of clueless horn and quasi-horn loaded vertically arrayed cabinets hit the market, with no real grasp of the critical driver spacing an effective LA deployment requires. I'd love to see these with grilles off!
-
Those springback handles will rattle someday, probably sooner than later.
It's like looking a 1990's F1 car: impressive in the flesh, great for its day, but alot has changed performance-wise since.
Tony is no doubt charging premium cash for rather pedestrian tech. A cult-ish thing...like BOSE?!
Let's not forget that Bose jumped on the bandwagon with their own line array system! It's on their "Pro" website.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Let's not forget that Bose jumped on the bandwagon with their own line array system! It's on their "Pro" website.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The worst,worst,worst system I ever had to endure was a "consultant spec'd" BOSE rig in a venue in Williamsport, PA. It was a collection or their array boxes, and they appeared to be in appropriate positions (more or less).
My first clue was during advance, when the house guy offered that "No one likes our system". I had never really heard that before.
I learned that Jerry Seinfeld - one guy with one mic - previously did a walk around preshow and was considering cancelling the date over the bad sound..... I had an orchestra backing a Beatles band! HELP! indeed.
There was simply no output. Give me one clear voice and I can fake my way through a show. Nothing. I walked and checked the room. Everything was on and operating ("normally" as house tech informed me). Something was coming out of the speakers, just not much.
I seriously could have done a better show with almost anything else: JBL Eons on sticks, Perkins w/1" horn, megaphones, anything. I still am baffled by the "Kings New Clothes" attitude I got. After all, it was consultant spec'd and it was BOSE!!
-
As with most things today, convenience wins out over quality.
That's why MP3 files are more popular than CDs or vinyl, digital imaging is more popular than film, etc, etc.
Steve.
I see your point, but I'm not sure its really as much of a tradeoff as people think.
Clearly fast food is so prevalent because, exactly as you say, convenience beats quality. Fast food is 'less good' than proper food in lots of ways, including its ability to provide nourishment.
However, when it comes to music and live shows, there are a couple of truths:
- I have never been to a medium to high budget live show where the PA was the limiting factor in sound quality. Thats not to say that we can't look at systems and make statements about the merits of different approaches, but in my opinion, in most cases changing the PA wont actually make a show sound better
- Again, whether a show is 'good' or not, has a lot less to do with technical sound quality than sometimes we sound engineers would like to believe. Its about the experience at the end of the day. Sound quality is part of that, but only part.
- Most people can't tell the difference between an iTunes store MP3 and a Wav. Either because they don't notice, or because their listening equipment doesn't allow them to. So has any actual quality been lost by going to MP3s? I'd argue not. People listen to, and have access to, more music today than ever before in history. Surely thats the point of selling music: for people to listen to it..
- Lots of old recordings and vinyls sound technically poor, but we love them. Why? Because we are listening to the content, not the audio quality.
-
This is why line arrays won. Because they are far more practical than big point source systems. Its that simple. They didnt have to sound better to win, because actually, as long as they sound OK, people buy them for all the other business reasons that have nothing to do with sound quality.
Yes, but they also did sound better. Today with many more entrants into the field there are plenty of mediocre LA systems, but in the beginning there was V-DOSC, and nothing else in use at the time sounded as good.
Mac
-
Lisa: Dad, you can't judge a place you've never been to.
Bart: Yeah, that's what people do in Russia.
-
I used to be a big fan of the LA concept and performance. Until many years of hearing bad sounding LA systems from many manufacturers. In many cases the things I disliked were from bad setup and deployment and other parts inherent to the LA itself. In the end I am more a fan of point source systems. I find point source to be a better solution. In every case in which I have setup, or been in the presence of a PS system, it has sounded better and was subject to much less of the acoustical problems that are exposed by LA systems that are even nearly 100% properly set up.
I can live with the inverse square laws rules in a PS system. I would rather the PA sound right over a small area than sound wrong over a large area. I am interested in knowing more about this F1 system and if it is in fact a scaled horn system. I get the feeling it's not?
-
I used to be a big fan of the LA concept and performance. Until many years of hearing bad sounding LA systems from many manufacturers. In many cases the things I disliked were from bad setup and deployment and other parts inherent to the LA itself. In the end I am more a fan of point source systems. I find point source to be a better solution. In every case in which I have setup, or been in the presence of a PS system, it has sounded better and was subject to much less of the acoustical problems that are exposed by LA systems that are even nearly 100% properly set up.
I can live with the inverse square laws rules in a PS system. I would rather the PA sound right over a small area than sound wrong over a large area. I am interested in knowing more about this F1 system and if it is in fact a scaled horn system. I get the feeling it's not?
But you have to remember, it's not a matter of line array versus point source. What matters is... wait for it...
What is the best tool for the job?
Now, of course there's going to be the case of small-operator who just has their trap rig, and that's it... but don't discount the advantages of a line array system, especially when it comes to delivering a more even coverage over a larger area just because some idiots either deployed the previous systems you have heard wrong, or they didn't bring enough Rig For The Gig.
-Ray
-
I am interested in knowing more about this F1 system and if it is in fact a scaled horn system. I get the feeling it's not?
The scaled horn system was done 15 years ago: KF760.
Here is another example of a perfectly good system with a less than stellar reputation because of an unlocked crossover. Been there, got the T-shirt.
-
About that F1 Vero system, the bottom of this page says "this is a point source design"
http://jayrockit.tumblr.com/post/72518011376/new-funktion-one-vero-exclusive-touring-rig
And here's some pictures of the system very properly deployed:
http://imgur.com/a/aFVwF
-
About that F1 Vero system, the bottom of this page says "this is a point source design"
http://jayrockit.tumblr.com/post/72518011376/new-funktion-one-vero-exclusive-touring-rig
And here's some pictures of the system very properly deployed:
http://imgur.com/a/aFVwF
I suspect he has packaged something like this with a far, mid and near field section into a package that looks like a line array. He has probably tried to combine the best properties of a line array and point source. It will be interesting to see when they reveal the details …
-
The scaled horn system was done 15 years ago: KF760.
When you all say "scaled horn", what exactly are you referring to? Is the concept similar to what Danley calls the "shaded" amplitude horn? From EAW's KF760 product information it appears to be a similar concept.
-
When you all say "scaled horn", what exactly are you referring to? Is the concept similar to what Danley calls the "shaded" amplitude horn? From EAW's KF760 product information it appears to be a similar concept.
What I meant was KF760 uses horns for all pass bands.
-
I was thinking along the lines of the much-unloved EAW KF860 specifically.
I was shop manager for a V-DOSC early adopter that was previously buying lots of EAW. (Cox Audio era L'Acoustics). Someone from EAW contacted me and asked if (for a future unnamed favor) they could borrow a V-DOSC or 2. (NO!) They were quite frustrated and clueless regarding the principal, even though the concept was long ago established and the L'Acoustics patent was published.
To give props where they are due: Brock Adamson had a patent already on file that was so similar in concept that IMO L'Acoustics should never have been granted theirs. But L'Acoustics was granted the patent, and they ran with it, and the rest is history. Their products are routinely excellent.
PS- Upon first delivery I dismantled the DOSC device and marveled at its wise simplicity ...and again wondered how it had patent protection as the design screamed of prior art.
-
I was thinking along the lines of the much-unloved EAW KF860 specifically.
I was shop manager for a V-DOSC early adopter that was previously buying lots of EAW. (Cox Audio era L'Acoustics). Someone from EAW contacted me and asked if (for a future unnamed favor) they could borrow a V-DOSC or 2. (NO!) They were quite frustrated and clueless regarding the principal, even though the concept was long ago established and the L'Acoustics patent was published.
To give props where they are due: Brock Adamson had a patent already on file that was so similar in concept that IMO L'Acoustics should never have been granted theirs. But L'Acoustics was granted the patent, and they ran with it, and the rest is history. Their products are routinely excellent.
PS- Upon first delivery I dismantled the DOSC device and marveled at its wise simplicity ...and again wondered how it had patent protection as the design screamed of prior art.
KF860 - totally forgot about that one.
-
KF860 - totally forgot about that one.
If you had ever had to rig them you wouldn't have.
Mac
-
If you had ever had to rig them you wouldn't have.
Mac
360lbs per box, maximum 10 boxes in a hang, pass band averaged long term output of 138dB. VerTec 4889 has < half the weight, the same or more output, and you can hang 20 of them in a column.
The KF860 deserves its obscurity.
-
360lbs per box, maximum 10 boxes in a hang, pass band averaged long term output of 138dB. VerTec 4889 has < half the weight, the same or more output, and you can hang 20 of them in a column.
The KF860 deserves its obscurity.
Without it it may have taken much longer to have wide availability of V-DOSC however. It was built to counter the lease only business plan of L-Acoustic, largely at the request of a couple of sound cos.
KF860 was the first system we mounted on field level carts for PA at SuperBowl, the carts (or their descendants) are still used today.
Mac
-
PS- Upon first delivery I dismantled the DOSC device and marveled at its wise simplicity ...and again wondered how it had patent protection as the design screamed of prior art.
?
-
It was built to counter the lease only business plan of L-Acoustic, largely at the request of a couple of sound cos.
I don't recall any lease-only arrangement. There was, however a significant minimum buy-in, and amplification and crossovers had to be up to snuff. Jeff Cox did personal evaluations of company facilities to ensure that the gear didn't end up in the hands of any knucklehead wannabe with deep pockets and a dream.
-
I don't recall any lease-only arrangement. There was, however a significant minimum buy-in, and amplification and crossovers had to be up to snuff. Jeff Cox did personal evaluations of company facilities to ensure that the gear didn't end up in the hands of any knucklehead wannabe with deep pockets and a dream.
Jeff got really cranky with me when I told him we wanted to use Peavey CS-series amps if we spent $1m+ on a PA. He and Paul Bauman had the unenviable task of convincing USA system owners that they couldn't futz with the processing or put the rig up willy-nilly.
Frankly it took awhile for the black box processing and level of manufacturer control to show its value to me. It came with the realization that we, the folks who wrote the cheque, were not the actual market for this product or way of doing business.
The real market was the 400-500 mixerpersons or artist TDs (maybe 1000, IDK) world-wide who had the clout to specify the PA for arena and stadium one-offs (as well as tours). What l'Acoustic was delivering was uniformity and consistency, and they did that with very limited approval of support equipment, required training, and minimum purchase requirements that insured the vendor would have Enough Rig for the Gig® (and a inter-provider rental network for over hire).
-
So, about this Function One "Line Array", I understand they were used in the Carl Cox tent at Ultra this year.
Anybody seen them, maybe took some pics?
-
I don't recall any lease-only arrangement. There was, however a significant minimum buy-in, and amplification and crossovers had to be up to snuff. Jeff Cox did personal evaluations of company facilities to ensure that the gear didn't end up in the hands of any knucklehead wannabe with deep pockets and a dream.
You may not remember, but originally you could not purchase V-DOSC, only lease. It was the reaction of a few large sound companies to this policy that led to the KF-860, and later to the ability to purchase V-DOSC.
Mac
-
or put the rig up willy-nilly.
Killer side fill, man!
-
Those springback handles will rattle someday, probably sooner than later.
It's like looking a 1990's F1 car: impressive in the flesh, great for its day, but alot has changed performance-wise since.
Tony is no doubt charging premium cash for rather pedestrian tech. A cult-ish thing...like BOSE?!
I guess you know what is inside your Christmas presents too just by looking at the wrapper?
Handles - not my first choice but then again not inherently bad - also interferes less with horn flares on the inside I suspect.
Rigging system looks usable and simple.
This is probably also the prototype as it certainly has not hit market yet - which means cosmetics are also likely to change (possibly including handles)
Dispersion is very unlikely to be 140 degrees (maybe 90 - 100 but that is just an educated guess on my part)
I did listen to a small amount of this system in its early development days. It sounded superb.
Perhaps the guys who just used it for Deadmaus would care to comment - or perhaps not. Such things are best kept close to the chest until a product is 100% ready for launch.
The smart will reserve judgement on it (especially on how it sounds) until they have actually seen it and tried it.
-
Those springback handles will rattle someday, probably sooner than later.
One of the venues I work at has Martin a W8-series PA, probably 20 years old and still going strong. Can't say I have noticed any rattles from the handles!
-
One of the venues I work at has Martin a W8-series PA, probably 20 years old and still going strong. Can't say I have noticed any rattles from the handles!
Not hard to lift around either as I recall - a friend still has some W8c
-
If you had ever had to rig them you wouldn't have.
Mac
Bolts and wrenches/sockets, right?
-
Bolts and wrenches/sockets, right?
That, and a hand full of "fiddly bits" and a special dolly to handle the speakers while building the hang.
-
So, about this Function One "Line Array"
Closely coupled point source horn and direct radiator systems have plenty of known response aberrations, some of which can be mitigated by DSP (see Gunness Focusing). Other limitations are intrinsic to the design and challenging ($!) to address - especially when a true line array is part of the solution. Hence a fair amount of cynicism regarding the (unheard) performance of Tony Andrew's VERO.
The playback world (i.e. DJ) can play somewhat looser with the "live" sound protocols, because a stage full of open mics isn't part of that stew.
-
Vero was up at the Carl Cox stage at Ultra in Miami this past weekend. SD8 and Pro2 at FOH. Everything sounded good from FOH, I didn't get a chance to wade through the crowd.
(http://i.imgur.com/bfFJf56.jpg)
The main stage was unbelievable. 18 a side J12s, 40+ PER SIDE J subs, and somewhere around 20 J INFRA subs. They were pushing around 110A and 145+ C weighted, and that was still in the middle of the afternoon.
(http://i.imgur.com/bsmqg04.jpg)
I handled a small stage in the corner, which happened to be the only one on the front side of the main stage. Kudo+SB28 rig, held up pretty nicely.
(http://i.imgur.com/qCHuCHo.jpg)
-
We probably need a redefinition of "live" sound. I am sure that Carl Cox was living and breathing and occasionally speaking into a mic. I am sure that the experience was VG.
For most us on the LAB "live sound" means dealing with the full-monty of multiple live performers with their individual instruments performing realtime in the same space as the audience. It may be my own unique opinion, but this kind of "open loop" tends to be a greater challenge for the gear and particularly the operators..
I am old enough to remember when the expression "Live DJ" was an oxymoron.
-
We probably need a redefinition of "live" sound. I am sure that Carl Cox was living and breathing and occasionally speaking into a mic. I am sure that the experience was VG.
For most us on the LAB "live sound" means dealing with the full-monty of multiple live performers with their individual instruments performing realtime in the same space as the audience. It may be my own unique opinion, but this kind of "open loop" tends to be a greater challenge for the gear and particularly the operators..
I am old enough to remember when the expression "Live DJ" was an oxymoron.
The FOH guys I worked with this last week spent a lot of time surfing the internet-looking at photo albums and generally "walking around" and chit chatting during their sets.
They pretty much set some levels and they are done.
Not quite the same thing as mixing a band that is constantly moving and changing things-patches-dealing with multiple monitor mixes and so forth.
There are some unusual challenging things that happen to the gear however.
DO NOT do one of these gigs without properly set limiters!!!!!!! 1/2 continuous is a good starting place. Not where you would start with a live band----------
-
I'd love to be able to shadow someone at an event like this. I would be completely out of my element but I'm as much a visual learner as I am kinetic. I'm sure there are about 50,000 reasons why it wouldn't happen (insurance liability being roughly 49,000 of them) but a guy can dream, can't he?
-
The FOH guys I worked with this last week spent a lot of time surfing the internet-looking at photo albums and generally "walking around" and chit chatting during their sets.
They pretty much set some levels and they are done.
Not quite the same thing as mixing a band that is constantly moving and changing things-patches-dealing with multiple monitor mixes and so forth.
There are some unusual challenging things that happen to the gear however.
DO NOT do one of these gigs without properly set limiters!!!!!!! 1/2 continuous is a good starting place. Not where you would start with a live band----------
The last photo I posted was my FOH. Doors were open from 4p-12a Friday, 12p to 12a Saturday, and 12p to 11p Sunday. Our stage was 100% continuous, most DJs transitioned to the same mixer so there was literally no changeover at all. I set peak hold on the meters, locked the console and took turns with the LD walking around the park, taking pictures and seeing some old friends at other stages. When at my stage, I was editing photos I just took, surfing on my phone, and trying to keep from falling asleep.
It was crucial for us to have our system controller monitoring at FOH (I have it running pretty much any show anyways), to watch system limiting and handling different zoning and shading (we were asked to keep the top boxes in the array shaded during the day, and I added a bit of a low shelf EQ around 35hz to give me a little bit of headroom when it came to low end for the headliners.
Main stage was the same engineer for the entirety of the festival. I was lucky enough to be doing another conference, so I only came in for Sunday.
-
If you had ever had to rig them you wouldn't have.
Mac
on top of a Brown United roof, with 1/2" clearance in the brackets, from a crane. Pucks and pins, my how I hated that. I think EAW engineering may still have the bent puck (not by me) from one of those events. The crane won, the puck bent, the end of the box violently came off. I wanted to hang it as a trophy in the shop...no such luck.
-
on top of a Brown United roof, with 1/2" clearance in the brackets, from a crane. Pucks and pins, my how I hated that. I think EAW engineering may still have the bent puck (not by me) from one of those events. The crane won, the puck bent, the end of the box violently came off. I wanted to hang it as a trophy in the shop...no such luck.
Didn't Spectrum still have them on Promise Keepers on the Washington Mall? I know there were KF900s and MSL-6s.
Mac
-
Didn't Spectrum still have them on Promise Keepers on the Washington Mall? I know there were KF900s and MSL-6s.
Mac
If memory serves me right, they were on the single Brown United poles in between the screen "stages". They moved on to Australia about a year later for the Olympic Ceremonies.
-
If memory serves me right, they were on the single Brown United poles in between the screen "stages". They moved on to Australia about a year later for the Olympic Ceremonies.
Those boxes were up for sale cheap for quite a while over here. I don't know if they ever sold or not. I was in the Norwest warehouse maybe 3 years ago and they were still piled in the corner collecting dust.
Nowadays I can't really think of anything much they would be useful for. An install in a large church with little budget maybe? Or, perhaps send them out with young crews who need to earn their stripes ;) I remember stacking MT4's and I'm quite happy that we have progressed to lighter boxes with the march of technology!
Darren