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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => DJ Forum => Topic started by: john Her on October 27, 2012, 09:11:41 PM
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Hi
I am a mobile DJ and last Christmas I upgraded my amps and speaker, I purchased
4 x JBL SRX715 Speakers,
and 2 Crown Macrotech 5000i amplifiers
with the idea that I would use one amp for the 4 SRX715
and the other amp for my JBL subs when I purchase,
My thoughts were what a great sound system, and I must say I love the crown macrotech 5000i amplifier
Its fair to say I push the speakers hard when I DJ, sometimes I use 4 and other times only two
A few of the things I don't like with SRX715s are ...
1) there not very sweet sounding, the top frequencies seem very suppressed until they are pushed quite hard
2) they have to be driven very hard before they come to life
3) It seems the top diaphragm over time deteriorate in sound quality rather than just blow like other diaphragms.
I replaced 4 diaphragms with genuine JBL replacements in the summer, due to the overall sound of the speakers sounding poor (Mid & Top) and it would seem it's that time again as I am not liking the quality from the speakers.
I understand I should run them with subs, but I do not like the way the overall quality seems to slowly deteriorate over time when pushing them hard ?
replacing the diaphragms is not cheap, $700 a time and twice in one year is not good either, please note I am not changing the 4 diaphragms again because they have totally blown, its because the over sound quality sounds dull.
so I would like other peoples feedback on these speakers, they are not cheap to buy and to be honest I am not over impressed with them.
Yes they are nice and light but they need a lot of driving before they come alive and if they are driven to hard they slowly start to sound poor.
Is there anything better out there for a pumping sound system, that sounds great and takes lots of punishment.
I love a strong top end, with a pleasant sounding mid range and obviously a great sounding bottom end, I know this will come from a decent pair of subs.
I'm just not sure the the SRX 715s are my best option as I seem to keep damaging them.
I have always been a JBL fan and had JBL speakers, I'm now wondering if there are other makes of speaker that might do the JOB better for me.
Any feed back and info would be very much appreciated.
Regards
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It's just a DJ...
Anywho - you'll need to change your display name to your real name: forum rules.
I don't think i've seen a negative thing about the SRX series...
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1) there not very sweet sounding, the top frequencies seem very suppressed until they are pushed quite hard
2) they have to be driven very hard before they come to life
Please get a hearing test done by a qualified person. Odds are great that you have damaged your hearing which in turn is causing this effect.
I understand I should run them with subs, but I do not like the way the overall quality seems to slowly deteriorate over time when pushing them hard ?
replacing the diaphragms is not cheap, $700 a time and twice in one year is not good either, please note I am not changing the 4 diaphragms again because they have totally blown, its because the over sound quality sounds dull.
Regards
You are most likely frying the voice coils.
Time to bring enough rig for the gig or stop cranking them so loud.
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Hi
I am a mobile DJ
I'm just not sure the the SRX 715s are my best option as I seem to keep damaging them.
Your choices:
1. Learn how to power and operate your system to protect the drivers from damage.
2. Be prepared to pay the price for abusing your gear.
Just buying heavier duty speakers does not guarantee that you won't end up with loss of sound quality by "DJ'ing" them.
As the old country doctor said, "If it hurts when you do that.......STOP DOING THAT!"
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Hi
I am a mobile DJ and last Christmas I upgraded my amps and speaker, I purchased
4 x JBL SRX715 Speakers,
And, might I as, how do you arrange your four speakers when you use them? For example, if you do the obvious: two per side with the grills parallel, well, welcome to the world of comb filtering that can do wonderful things to your sound. Granted, at 1KHz the null and lobes will probably be no more than a foot apart, but this can definitely have an impact on how you perceive the sound from these guys (especially outdoors).
and 2 Crown Macrotech 5000i amplifiers
Not a bad choice. However, I run my SRX 712m monitor wedges off an ITech 8000 and an XLS 602 (biamped). I *do* however, use a speaker management system (DBX DriveRack 260 in this case). Which is probably why I don't blow up the speakers.
with the idea that I would use one amp for the 4 SRX715
and the other amp for my JBL subs when I purchase,
My thoughts were what a great sound system, and I must say I love the crown macrotech 5000i amplifier
Its fair to say I push the speakers hard when I DJ, sometimes I use 4 and other times only two
A few of the things I don't like with SRX715s are ...
1) there not very sweet sounding, the top frequencies seem very suppressed until they are pushed quite hard
Now I use SRX 725 cabs rather than SRX 715, but they sound a whole lot better to me when I'm not pushing them to their limits. And this is a guy with substantial hearing loss above 1K. When they get really loud, I need to be far away from them or they rip my ears off.
2) they have to be driven very hard before they come to life
96 dB SPL @ 1w/1m isn't great, but not terrible either (725 columns have 99 dB SPL IIRC). Yes, it takes over twice the power on the 715 cabs to reach the same levels as my 725 cabinets. JBL SRX equipment is known to be rather power hungry (though not as bad as some gear out there). For me, 99 dB SPL @1w/1m seems to be the sweet spot. You can get some Danley gear that blows these numbers away (SH46 comes to mind), but you'll pay 2-3x the price of the SRX gear to achieve that.
BTW, my 712m wedges have 95 dB SPL @1w/1m, which is why I biamp them and drive the LF driver with an ITech.
3) It seems the top diaphragm over time deteriorate in sound quality rather than just blow like other diaphragms.
I run my 725 cabs (which, AFAIK, use the same compression driver as the 715) loud all the time. I've done shows with 3,000 people with four of these cabs (plus subs, of course). Granted, I use the limiter in a DBX Driver 4800 to protect the speakers, but I've never had a problem.
I replaced 4 diaphragms with genuine JBL replacements in the summer, due to the overall sound of the speakers sounding poor (Mid & Top) and it would seem it's that time again as I am not liking the quality from the speakers.
I understand I should run them with subs, but I do not like the way the overall quality seems to slowly deteriorate over time when pushing them hard ?
Time to invest in a loudspeaker management system. As you've got Harmon gear (JBL+Crown), I'd strongly recommend a DBX DriveRack 260. Much cheaper than replacing HF drivers.
replacing the diaphragms is not cheap, $700 a time and twice in one year is not good either, please note I am not changing the 4 diaphragms again because they have totally blown, its because the over sound quality sounds dull.
DR 260 costs around $950 on the street. Buy one.
so I would like other peoples feedback on these speakers, they are not cheap to buy and to be honest I am not over impressed with them.
If you are not impressed with them because they blow up, invest in a limiter (such as the DR 260). If you are not impressed with them because of the sound they produce, I'd suggest looking elsewhere. While most people are at least okay with the sound of the SRX, there are some people who don't like them. You may very well be one of those people.
Yes they are nice and light but they need a lot of driving before they come alive and if they are driven to hard they slowly start to sound poor.
Hint: a limiter can be your friend.
Is there anything better out there for a pumping sound system, that sounds great and takes lots of punishment.
Absolutely. How much money do you want to spend? I've mentioned Danley; they universally get great reviews. However, you'll spend $3,000-$5,000 for typical cabinets from Danley rather than $1,500.
[/quote
I love a strong top end, with a pleasant sounding mid range and obviously a great sounding bottom end, I know this will come from a decent pair of subs.
[/quote]
You might also want to consider a 3-way system. Definitely consider going biamp-ed or tri-amped (when you get subs).
I'm just not sure the the SRX 715s are my best option as I seem to keep damaging them.
If you keep damaging SRX cabinets, you're clearly doing something wrong. Again, a limiter can be your friend. If the limiter prevents you from driving the speakers to the point you like the sound, then you need something better than an SRX 715. Consider the VRX 915 which has a much better horn in it.
I have always been a JBL fan and had JBL speakers, I'm now wondering if there are other makes of speaker that might do the JOB better for me.
I have always been a fan of (pro-level) Harmon International gear. Some recent experiences with their PRX 625 cabinets have made me question my loyalty to that company (granted, most people would not consider the PRX line "pro" gear). As soon as I can afford it, I'd like to move up to something like Danley. If you've got the bucks, I'd look into that line as well.
Note however, that you can blow up Danley drivers just as easily as JBL (more easily, in fact as they are far more sensitive that SRX cabinets and, therefore, tend to operate at much lower power levels).
Cheers,
Randy Hyde
P.S. I wouldn't mention that you're a DJ blowing up SRX gear. That just reinforces the opinions many people have of DJs around here :)
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After 45 years of JBL I would have to say the SRX series is a success all around. There are better speakers, but not so much better that most people could notice as long as the SRX cabinets are used properly and that means a DSP. My system is all 725s and 718s that are never run to their limits, simply because there is never a real reason to do so. Saying this and based on my experience with the SRX line I'll put my money on those 715s being abused. Buy some subs, a DSP, and a book, "DJs and speaker destruction 101".
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DR 260 costs around $950 on the street.
They're quite a bit cheaper than that if you know where to look
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Hi
I am a mobile DJ and last Christmas I upgraded my amps and speaker, I purchased
4 x JBL SRX715 Speakers,
and 2 Crown Macrotech 5000i amplifiers
with the idea that I would use one amp for the 4 SRX715
and the other amp for my JBL subs when I purchase,
My thoughts were what a great sound system, and I must say I love the crown macrotech 5000i amplifier
Its fair to say I push the speakers hard when I DJ, sometimes I use 4 and other times only two
A few of the things I don't like with SRX715s are ...
1) there not very sweet sounding, the top frequencies seem very suppressed until they are pushed quite hard
2) they have to be driven very hard before they come to life
3) It seems the top diaphragm over time deteriorate in sound quality rather than just blow like other diaphragms.
I replaced 4 diaphragms with genuine JBL replacements in the summer, due to the overall sound of the speakers sounding poor (Mid & Top) and it would seem it's that time again as I am not liking the quality from the speakers.
I understand I should run them with subs, but I do not like the way the overall quality seems to slowly deteriorate over time when pushing them hard ?
replacing the diaphragms is not cheap, $700 a time and twice in one year is not good either, please note I am not changing the 4 diaphragms again because they have totally blown, its because the over sound quality sounds dull.
so I would like other peoples feedback on these speakers, they are not cheap to buy and to be honest I am not over impressed with them.
Yes they are nice and light but they need a lot of driving before they come alive and if they are driven to hard they slowly start to sound poor.
Is there anything better out there for a pumping sound system, that sounds great and takes lots of punishment.
I love a strong top end, with a pleasant sounding mid range and obviously a great sounding bottom end, I know this will come from a decent pair of subs.
I'm just not sure the the SRX 715s are my best option as I seem to keep damaging them.
I have always been a JBL fan and had JBL speakers, I'm now wondering if there are other makes of speaker that might do the JOB better for me.
Any feed back and info would be very much appreciated.
Regards
Without ready anything but how you don't like Jbl and the top end I have to agree.
3.15k is a problem...even more of a problem the jbls I mix on
Junky but loud
Jbl.
P.s. I have only heard the jrx and srx line and mixed on those can't comment on vrx or higher
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Typical response from the uneducated and inexperienced. You compare the JRX series to the SRX series? Really? LMFAO
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Typical response from the uneducated and inexperienced. You compare the JRX series to the SRX series? Really? LMFAO
Yep. Those new jeans make your ass look fat.......
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This post just made me dumber.
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Typical response from the uneducated and inexperienced. You compare the JRX series to the SRX series? Really? LMFAO
I've had a few BEs complain about the "JBL sound" and problem frequencies, I might lend the argument some credibility but none of them can ever seem to agree on what that frequency is. My thoughts are that when you reach SRX (and equivalent competitor lines) levels of equipment, any issues with box performance is typically operator error.
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A buddy of mine (and damn good engineer) said once that JBL made their horns out of recycled ninjas. Because they were "angry and had a bunch of sharp points"
Lol
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Hi
I am a mobile DJ and last Christmas I upgraded my amps and speaker, I purchased
4 x JBL SRX715 Speakers,
and 2 Crown Macrotech 5000i amplifiers
with the idea that I would use one amp for the 4 SRX715
and the other amp for my JBL subs when I purchase,
My thoughts were what a great sound system, and I must say I love the crown macrotech 5000i amplifier
Its fair to say I push the speakers hard when I DJ, sometimes I use 4 and other times only two
A few of the things I don't like with SRX715s are ...
1) there not very sweet sounding, the top frequencies seem very suppressed until they are pushed quite hard
2) they have to be driven very hard before they come to life
3) It seems the top diaphragm over time deteriorate in sound quality rather than just blow like other diaphragms.
I replaced 4 diaphragms with genuine JBL replacements in the summer, due to the overall sound of the speakers sounding poor (Mid & Top) and it would seem it's that time again as I am not liking the quality from the speakers.
I understand I should run them with subs, but I do not like the way the overall quality seems to slowly deteriorate over time when pushing them hard ?
replacing the diaphragms is not cheap, $700 a time and twice in one year is not good either, please note I am not changing the 4 diaphragms again because they have totally blown, its because the over sound quality sounds dull.
so I would like other peoples feedback on these speakers, they are not cheap to buy and to be honest I am not over impressed with them.
Yes they are nice and light but they need a lot of driving before they come alive and if they are driven to hard they slowly start to sound poor.
Is there anything better out there for a pumping sound system, that sounds great and takes lots of punishment.
I love a strong top end, with a pleasant sounding mid range and obviously a great sounding bottom end, I know this will come from a decent pair of subs.
I'm just not sure the the SRX 715s are my best option as I seem to keep damaging them.
I have always been a JBL fan and had JBL speakers, I'm now wondering if there are other makes of speaker that might do the JOB better for me.
Any feed back and info would be very much appreciated.
Regards
Hi Guys
First of all thank you for your replies, makes very interesting reading.
My hearing is fine, I know when a sound system sounds good and blows you away with quality, and when I replace the diaphragms they sound great.
My problem is overtime, I am obviously driving them too hard and slowly making the 715s sound dull, and thus I assume frying the coils, but not to the point of blowing them.
I own and have been using a dbx 1066 Dual Compressor / Limiter / Gate with limited success, I guess due to sometimes using two speakers for smaller venues and other times using 4,
I am feeling from your suggestions that the dbx drive rack products are much more intelligent when it comes to protecting speakers and as they have my amps and speakers already pre programmed for selection when setting up, this must be a major plus point.
My only concern is, can the dbx drive rack be used with only 2 or 4, 715s and no subs, as there are times for smaller venues that I will not be using subs ?
I am hoping the answer is yes, I have been finding out more info on the drive rack product range and watching some videos on the dbx products, they seem very impressive.
Some one also suggested upgrading the diaphragms to Titanium Or Beryllium not a cheap option but may be worth while, as I believe these diaphragms are used in more expensive JBL top ends.
How impressive are the DBX Drive Racks, do they really work well ?, I am assuming one can have different profiles for different setups configurations,
I know there are a few people, that have quoted "It's only a DJ" and almost been arrogant in there reply, I am not uneducated, I spend my life trying to reach perfection or as close as I can afford to it. Any educated person out there will know I have not cut corners with my kit,
I know this factual as most DJs I know in the UK and not using this grade of speakers or amplifiers, I use Pioneer CDJ 2000 decks and xone:92 Allen & Heath Mixer
My main profession is an electronics engineer and I repair many professional products.
So I know I have a problem that needs to be addressed and I appreciate all positive replies from people that are not arrogant, I'm not the first person to damage a pair of JBL diaphragms and I am sure I will not be last. What's important with any problem is NOT keep making the same mistake over and over and thus why I have posted here.
I have the DBX crossover too, but have not used it yet as I am still to purchase some subs. though I kind of get the impression the dbx drive rack has a crossover built in, so If I purchase the Drive rack I will not need my current dbx limiter 1066 or dbx crossover.
Is it worth by passing the passive crossovers in the 715s and run the mid and top active, if so what amplifier would one suggest using to run the tops, as my macrotech 5000i is far to powerful.
also if I run the 715s active can the drive rack supply full range frequencies to the 715 if I choose not to use subs for the smaller venues.
I do appreciate your help and feedback, all I want to do is get my system right and prevent further damage in the future and it would seem the two missing ingredients is a DSP and Subs
I look forward to your replies
and thank you in advance
Regards
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You can read myriad threads on these forums regarding protecting sound systems from DJ's. You can read an equal number on Drive Racks. The bottom line is that there is no really practical way to use a piece of gear to keep DJ (ab)use from degrading speaker performance over time or flat-out destroying drivers.
The only things that will save your speakers are:
1. Knowing what NOT to do.
2. Having enough "rig for the gig" so as not to push the gear past it's maximum capacity in search for enough volume and presence.
Knowledge on the part of the operator is the only really effective tool. No rack-mountable processor can substitute for the needed knowledge. So.....
Learn how far you can safely push your gear and stay within those limits. If you can't do your job within those limits, you need more and better gear.
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Does anybody think that incorrect settings on the 1066 could be causing, or contributing to, the issues?
Also, stick with the JBL spec'd driver IMO.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Does anybody think that ........... the 1066 could be causing, or contributing to, the issues?
Gee. Ya think?
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You can read myriad threads on these forums regarding protecting sound systems from DJ's. You can read an equal number on Drive Racks. The bottom line is that there is no really practical way to use a piece of gear to keep DJ (ab)use from degrading speaker performance over time or flat-out destroying drivers.
The only things that will save your speakers are:
1. Knowing what NOT to do.
2. Having enough "rig for the gig" so as not to push the gear past it's maximum capacity in search for enough volume and presence.
Knowledge on the part of the operator is the only really effective tool. No rack-mountable processor can substitute for the needed knowledge. So.....
Learn how far you can safely push your gear and stay within those limits. If you can't do your job within those limits, you need more and better gear.
Hi Even if I always used all 4 SRX 715s all the time, It's clear I am driving them at times too hard,
so are you saying the 715s are not powerful enough and I should look at other speakers? when you say you need more and better gear.
I seem to be getting many conflicting replies, some people saying use dbx drive racks, some people saying get bigger speakers
So are the thoughts now that dbx drive rack are not much good to help me with this issue?
I think in wisdom, CROWN should have used a BIG RED LED for there clip indicator,
Anyway any further views and feedback always appreciated
Thanks in advance
Regards
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Gee. Ya think?
I watched DJ's destroy a set of SRX725's used as BOOTH MONITORS! -Standing at the DJ table was probably not that different than being behind a jet engine at takeoff.
If DJ's can endure that level then ask for more then I strongly doubt nothing will make them happy.
(The club had a live sound stage setup and the speakers were normally the sidefill monitors and had seen years of service with no problems)
The SRX line of speakers is the best sounding version of the series ever. No more of the JBL "horn" sound that everybody seems to complain about (rightly-so as even I remember dealing with 2445's on 2380 horns) but give the new SRX a good listen before lumping them in with all previous products.
In many ways providing good pro gear for "pro" club DJ's is akin to laying pearls before swine -and I say that after just retiring from 2 straight years of managing a large trendy nightclub in southern california so I've seen enough attitude, ego and equipment carnage to put me off of that end of our business for a long time.
It was the "pro" guest DJ's that were always the problem. The local regular guys were still mold-able and after a couple years were starting to focus on quality and not just quantity.
I replaced the flaming 725's with a pair of my custom 8" coax (radian driver) set right on the DJ table L&R
-on a slow-recovery buss-compressor before the A/D of the processor -followed by a hard output limiter within the processor (for spikes that get past the analog) set at -10 from clipping on a smaller QSC amp. They got loud enough to hurt your ears yet were far enough below maximum ratings on the driver they will run forever with the mixer booth output hard-clipped -and they have now for the last 6 months.
As far as the O-P is concerned, go get yourself some V-35 Cerwins and L-36 bass cabs. I'm not joking - you will be happy and probably won't have any burnout problems. -And this is learned knowledge from a very smart equipment dealer in the LA area that has been servicing the mobile DJ industry for decades. Something about the smoothness and flatness of high quality gear doesn't make it sound as "loud" as middle-range DJ oriented gear. I used to laugh at this, but when people kept bringing back blown-up JBL, EV and EAW all while the C-V stuff just kept on going! -I began to see the light :-)
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Hi Even if I always used all 4 SRX 715s all the time, It's clear I am driving them at times too hard,
Read what you wrote. Think about it.
100% of the driver failures in DJ use are caused by driving things too hard.
Until you understand this and the light that it throws on the replies you receive you will continue to blow things up.
I'm not going to reply any more. You've been given the information you need.
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so are you saying the 715s are not powerful enough and I should look at other speakers?
John, exactly what size rooms are you covering, gym sized? What sytle of music? Are you clipping the DJ mixer, or the amps?
If you are playing high compressed material, you should not be using an amp that outputs more that 800W into the 715s long term. Putting more dynamic material though them, like live music, you can apply the 1600W (or more) as stated in the specs.
If an 800W amp doesnt generate enough SPL for your needs (with compressed mp3. etc), you probably need more efficient speakers as the 715s are only 96db/1m, which are not the loudest speaker around.
Mike
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John, exactly what size rooms are you covering, gym sized? What sytle of music? Are you clipping the DJ mixer, or the amps?
If you are playing high compressed material, you should not be using an amp that outputs more that 800W into the 715s long term. Putting more dynamic material though them, like live music, you can apply the 1600W (or more) as stated in the specs.
If an 800W amp doesnt generate enough SPL for your needs (with compressed mp3. etc), you probably need more efficient speakers as the 715s are only 96db/1m, which are not the loudest speaker around.
Mike
Hi
In all fairness the subs have been on my shopping list for quite some time, SRX718
An average large sized venue where I would use 4 Srx715 may be about 30 meters wide by 60/80 long
This would be the large venues such as a golf club, smaller venues would be 20 meters by 15/20 meters, I would tend to use a pair only for this sized room.
The other thing I have been doing which may not help, if I am honest is when I use two (715s) I use them on the floor, to get a better bass out of them, though it means a lot of top frequencies are going into peoples legs and thus I may be pushing the tops harder than I should be.
So it obvious to me I need subs, Its just not all venues I work warrant using subs
I think my next purchase should be a a drive rack 260 and a pair of srx718 subs
I know people have said think about what you wrote, bla bla bla, but is adding more 715 to my system going to really help me?
Its obvious that the type of music I play for long periods of time is to much for the system as is at the moment.
It ok for people to say turn it down, I agree but sadly when you are working with a full dance floor in front of you, you don't realise the damage that is occurring until it's to late, this is happening over a period of weeks/months until I end up with a dull sounding box
My amplifiers are Crown Macrotech 5000i they are very powerful and I love the build quality of these amplifiers, I don't feel I need to change the amplifiers,
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Just wanted to say thanks for all feedback
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Can anyone tell me if the DBX drive rack can be setup for 2way active crossover and 3 way active crossover
Thus can be used with no subs for smaller venues and with sub for larger venues
Regards
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Can anyone tell me if the DBX drive rack can be setup for 2way active crossover and 3 way active crossover
Thus can be used with no subs for smaller venues and with sub for larger venues
Regards
Both of the common dbx Driveracks will let you have multiple presets, so you can have one for with subs and one without subs. The Driverack PA+ only has 2 inputs so you cannot do subs on an aux, the Driverack 260 has 3 inputs so you can use the third input for a sub send if you want. There are lots of other DSP speaker processors besides the dbx lineup.
Mac
ps There are no capital letters in the name of the company that uses founder David Blackmer's initials in their name, it is dbx, not DBX. There is 1 capital letter in the abbreviation of deciBel, dB.
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Hi would you suggest anything better than the dbx lineup? or is dbx the way to go
regards
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The other thing I have been doing which may not help, if I am honest is when I use two (715s) I use them on the floor, to get a better bass out of them, though it means a lot of top frequencies are going into peoples legs and thus I may be pushing the tops harder than I should be.
I think this is a major source of your trouble.
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I think this is a major source of your trouble.
I bet your kneecaps thought it sounded great.
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I bet your kneecaps thought it sounded great.
Great set up. That way you could hear the music while biting ankles.....
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The problem is put the speakers up in the air and no bass !,
it would seem you can have the best of all for smaller venues.
Mid & top if you put them up in the air or an overall full range of frequencies on the stage floor
Over all I appreciate everyone's feedback, it has been more than helpful thank you, though shame about the odd flippant arrogant replies that just come across as unhelpful and make the person look uneducated.
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Great set up. That way you could hear the music while biting ankles.....
(http://static2.fjcdn.com/comments/You+made+my+day+lol+x+_cc9efc0a7ecf286b52c45759ff980916.jpg)
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I think this is a major source of your trouble.
that,and trying to do 90' x 200' rooms with only 4 overpowered fullrange speakers!
I would say that those 715's being alive at all under those conditions is a testament to their quality!
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I seem to be getting many conflicting replies, some people saying use dbx drive racks, some people saying get bigger speakers
Those are complementary rather than conficting recommendations. The signal processing could help you get the most from your existing system and also help protect it from being pushed too hard. However, it sounds like you need more from your system than it currently may be able to provide without being damaged. And anything you do there likely could still benefit from thge signal processing.
The problem is put the speakers up in the air and no bass !,
No bass where? You might want to read http://fulcrum-acoustic.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/comments-on-half-space.pdf (http://fulcrum-acoustic.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/comments-on-half-space.pdf). To listeners some distance from the speaker both the source (the speaker) and receiver (the listeners) may effectively be on the same boundary plane (the floor) and thus any related 'half space' loading for the direct sound is independent of the speaker location. So any increase in the low frequency levels resulting from putting the speaker on the floor may be limited to listeners up close to the speakers and/or due more to increased indirect low frequency energy that is reflected off the walls and ceilings rather than due to any increase in the direct sound.
So put together up to 100' x 200'-250' rooms, DJ use, no subs, the mains on the floor, no processing and so on and it's not surprising that your SRX715s aren't working for you, but that's likely more a result of the application of the product than of the product itself. Before you make any changes it might be good to try to assess what improvements or performance you do expect, that way you can have some better basis for selcting appropriate solutions for your applications.
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The other thing I have been doing which may not help, if I am honest is when I use two (715s) I use them on the floor, to get a better bass out of them, though it means a lot of top frequencies are going into peoples legs and thus I may be pushing the tops harder than I should be.
Whoa!
Wish this fact was mentioned in the first post. There's your problem no question about it.
Don't get more tops, get some subs. The horns on your 715 ought to be at least 7' in the air. Heck yeah, the high-end is going to sound dull if those guys are sitting on the floor.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde
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ok here is my plan to go forward over the next week or so...
1) 4 new genuine JBL Diaphragms from the USA are now waiting at UK customs, should have them in the next few days. I will repair all the tops for a 2nd time this year
Not sure if the I have damaged the mid drivers ? hard to tell, the cones/coils are not rubbing, but worst ways I can replace 4 of these 15" drivers too.
2) I already own speaker stands, so no big issue there, I will use them in the future when not using subs, and just suffer lack of bass, I also understand the mid & top frequencies should be at ear level, not at leg level.
3) Will keep my two Crown Macrotech 5000i amplifiers, one being used to drive either 2 or 4 of the mid range drivers in the 715s,
4) the other Crown Macrotech 5000i amplifier will drive the two new subs I plan to purchase in the next few days being 2 x SRX 718 cabs
5) I plan to purchase a dbx Drive Rack 260 DSP, hope it is the right choice?
6) I will also purchase 1u Matrix XT800 amplifier for my Tops in the SRX715
7) and thus running the system 3 way or two way fully active depending If I am using subs
8) I will always ensure there is NO Clipping on any of the 3 amplifiers, though the only thing that does worry me is any badly recorded CDs I may own, but I am hoping the Drive Rack should prevent any nasty transients or clips etc.
I would like to think this should go somewhere close to improving things and making me a little more happy with the overall sound of my system.
I am also guessing the HiFi I have always been hoping for will not happen due to the size of the HF drivers, that's the feedback I have read on this post from others
Also another thank you to everyone's input, appreciated.....
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4) the other Crown Macrotech 5000i amplifier will drive the two new subs I plan to purchase in the next few days being 2 x SRX 718 cabs
6) I will also purchase 1u Matrix XT800 amplifier for my Tops in the SRX715
I'd rather see a pair of 728 (or 4 718) than spending money bi-amping those tops, in the short term at least. Two 718 will keep up with a pair of 715, when you run all 4 tops the subs will likely be left in the dust.
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I'd rather see a pair of 728 (or 4 718) than spending money bi-amping those tops, in the short term at least. Two 718 will keep up with a pair of 715, when you run all 4 tops the subs will likely be left in the dust.
This
When I have used the SRX line, I'm usually perfectly happy with the passive crossover. You would be miles ahead by having at least 4 18" subs under your tops. In your situation I would go for 4 of the 718's so you can maximize your set up options.
Just as an example, you could easily run 4 SRX728's under the tops you have and be perfectly fine. To make real bass, it takes a lot of cones and power. 4 718's will get you happy, but if you are doing some big high school event you might want more.
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This
When I have used the SRX line, I'm usually perfectly happy with the passive crossover. You would be miles ahead by having at least 4 18" subs under your tops. In your situation I would go for 4 of the 718's so you can maximize your set up options.
Just as an example, you could easily run 4 SRX728's under the tops you have and be perfectly fine. To make real bass, it takes a lot of cones and power. 4 718's will get you happy, but if you are doing some big high school event you might want more.
Agreed as well. Spend your money on more subs rather than bi-amping. Get used to running them in passive mode without blowing them up before you try to run them bi-amped.
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This
When I have used the SRX line, I'm usually perfectly happy with the passive crossover. You would be miles ahead by having at least 4 18" subs under your tops. In your situation I would go for 4 of the 718's so you can maximize your set up options.
Just as an example, you could easily run 4 SRX728's under the tops you have and be perfectly fine. To make real bass, it takes a lot of cones and power. 4 718's will get you happy, but if you are doing some big high school event you might want more.
Now we're on to something.
Goerge, this is the "real deal" advice. Run your tops passive, spend your money on subs. A 718 for each top box is a good start.
As for an up-thread comment about keeping your amps out of clipping with DSP... for your subs, don't sweat a clip light that only flashes *briefly* on peaks. Seriously, it's not going to hurt anything. The amount of limiting necessary to keep that light off will squash the life out of any dynamic range that might exist in your program material. What you don't want to see are clip lights that stay on. As for clipping in general I think it's important to understand that clipping, by and of itself, does NOT damage speakers. If it did, rock and roll distorted guitar sounds would have blown every car radio and home stereo by 1972. Speakers die because of mechanical abuse or heat.
Mechanical failures occur because the transducer is operating outside the physical design limits of its materials, adhesives, or structure. Heat failures are caused by exceeding the thermal dissipation capability of the voice coil and its surrounding magnetic structure. Highly compressed signals get that way by lowering the peak, thereby INCREASING the average voltage sent to the voice coil. The coil will get hotter and stay that way once you run out of thermal headroom.
Using a conventional single-stage compressor/limiter will not offer you any real system protection and may be contributing to the premature aging of your HF. To answer an earlier question, it is not likely that you need to recone the 15s yet.
Have fun, good luck.
Tim Mc
ps.
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Reply #1
If you are running full-range cabs and only blowing up the HF drivers, then that tells me your sound must be excruciatingly bright. That is the sound that makes me leave an event early, but apparantly you are doing OK with it. I really expected this thread to be problems blowing up woofers. Perhaps you are playing in very acoustically damped rooms, or really huge and reflective ones, where you would then (maybe) need all that HF. Is your problem getting the sound to "penetrate" in those rooms, causing you to drive the top end so hard?
This, to me, is perplexing.
-Dennis
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Reply #2
You have to mount the cabinets so that the HF horn is at least 1 foot above the patrons heads. Any lower, and the HFs will be blocked by those closest to the speakers. You will get no penetration. It is a fallacy (mostly) that you will get "more bass" by putting them on the floor. What you are really doing is blocking the highs, not increasing the lows, causing you to turn up the HFs. Subs make great, stable, speaker stands. Don't leave home without them.
-Dennis
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Reply #3
If your source material is MP3s, I cannot help you any further. MP3s have no useable bass, very distorted midrange, and extremely distorted highs; all due to the extreme compression. Further compression by DSP limiting just makes it worse. The output appears (on a 'scope), and sounds, like the output of a square wave generator. Look up the effects of square waves and driver diaphragm failures.
Google this: square waves tweeter failures
-Dennis
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Reply #3
If your source material is MP3s, I cannot help you any further. MP3s have no useable bass, very distorted midrange, and extremely distorted highs; all due to the extreme compression. Further compression by DSP limiting just makes it worse. The output appears (on a 'scope), and sounds, like the output of a square wave generator. Look up the effects of square waves and driver diaphragm failures.
Google this: square waves tweeter failures
-Dennis
A audio myth that refuses to die. Transducers are killed by heat or over excursion. Compressing the signal has no effect until you raise the volume to compensate for the gain reduction. A compressed signal has a higher average energy compared to peak volume. This equates to heat. The shape of the signal is meaningless.
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...Compressing the signal has no effect until you raise the volume to compensate for the gain reduction. A compressed signal has a higher average energy compared to peak volume. This equates to heat...
That was exactly my point.
We are trying to solve this fellow's dilema from the operator's POV; not the transducer's.
Perhaps I should have stated that an MP3 further comressed will "approach" the shape of a square wave. A more technical term might be a "high duty cycle" waveform.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_cycle
I think that we are talking about the same thing.
-Dennis
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That was exactly my point.
Perhaps I should have stated that an MP3 further comressed will "approach" the shape of a square wave. Better?
-Dennis
The shape doesn't matter, and even if it did, at the extreme situation the transducer does not follow the same wave pattern as the input. The transducer still has to deaccelerate, stop, and then accelerate every time it changes direction. Since this cannot happen instantaneously the transducer may not follow the electrical signal.
A square wave with less energy than the speaker can convert to motion and heat is perfectly safe. A perfect sine wave with more energy than the speaker can convert to motion and dissipate as heat will destroy the speaker.
I see this as a simple conservation of energy problem. The shape of the wave is really meaningless (especially given the complexity of a true musical signal, as opposed to the simpler models we tend to think about). All waves regardless of shape transfer energy. This just comes down to how much.