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Title: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Samuel Rees on December 14, 2013, 01:10:08 AM
I'm getting ready to put together my own build of the "poormans" PowerCON Distro that has been discussed here and linked from here:

http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,91739.0.html

http://www.padrick.net/LiveSound/BarDistro/BarDistro.htm

I'm preparing to invest in some new powered boxes with PowerCON, so this seams an ideal time time to move over to this type of system. When with my rig I'm always running off 1-4 local 15-20 amp circuits, or I'm getting run a couple similar circuits from a distro in a bigger rig. I don't have any single device that can draw more than 15 amps. I like that I will be able to power my wedges, stage power and etc in the same way to the distro box every time, then reconfigure some jumpers and run a couple long leads to quickly configure the best distribution of power from the site.  I'll also being getting new stage power and etc - I'm currently looking at OA Windsor. 

From everything I've read, this looks fairly straight forward to put together. That said - I have not done a lot of DIY and it'll be in many ways a new experience. I'm hoping that this thread can help me vet some of the parts I buy and the quality of the final product.

I'm planning on a 4 in, 12 out panel with all 16 holes lined right up on a 1U panel face something like this:
http://www.amazon.com/Penn-Elcom-R1269-1UK-16/dp/B005H3OVQ4
and a second panel with just 1 inlet and perhaps 8 outlets, similar to the above. This is just what came up on a quick google search. It seems something with a box on it like in Rob's design would be ideal, but I was having trouble figuring out the search terms to find something. Any suggestions?

Parts Express has what appears to be the parts I need for the panel:

Inlet
http://www.parts-express.com/neutrik-nac3mpa-1-powercon-chassis-connector-power-in-blue--092-284
Outlet
http://www.parts-express.com/neutrik-nac3mpb-powercon-chassis-connector-power-out-gray--092-286


and for the cables:


NAC3FCA
http://www.parts-express.com/neutrik-nac3fca-powercon-cable-connector-power-in-blue--092-280
NAC3FCB
http://www.parts-express.com/neutrik-nac3fcb-powercon-cable-connector-power-out-gray--092-282


12-3 SJ/SO-OOW should be appropriate cable for everything, correct? I've put some together but never bought it myself. This from Parts Express looks about right, but I'd appreciate suggestions on where (and what) to buy this as well as connectors and etc.
http://www.parts-express.com/carol-12-awg-3c-sjoow-power-cable-250-ft--100-579

I plan to build my main feeder cables with powercon at the distro and NEMA 15-20p on the other end - and I'll tie on a 15-20r to 15-15p adapter on the end of it.

Any general advice? I'm very open to suggestion and direction. Thanks in advance!



Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 14, 2013, 03:08:10 AM
The purpose of the "poor man's distro" is to have all grounds at the same potential.  If you don't have issues with hum or buzz now, the only benefit is from having a central patch point for loads.  You're still running 12/3 to 4 separate circuits...

Your proposed 1 unit, 16 hole strip will likely be very, very tight.  If you look closely at the photo you'll notice that there isn't much metal between holes.  Now think about the wiring you have to do...  I don't remember how Padrick addressed the need for this to be fully inclosed (all 6 sides), preferably in steel (and don't forget to ground the box).  Code also limits the number of conductors and connections within a box based on the cubic volume of the box and the size of the conductors.

(http://www.stayonline.com/images/referenceimages/nema_15-20p.gif)
NEMA 15-20 is for 3 phase/250v service

Did you mean NEMA 5-20?
(http://www.stayonline.com/images/referenceimages/nema_5-20r.gif)

Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on December 14, 2013, 07:55:25 AM
I'm getting ready to put together my own build of the "poormans" PowerCON Distro that has been discussed here and linked from here:

http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,91739.0.html

http://www.padrick.net/LiveSound/BarDistro/BarDistro.htm

I'm preparing to invest in some new powered boxes with PowerCON, so this seams an ideal time time to move over to this type of system. When with my rig I'm always running off 1-4 local 15-20 amp circuits, or I'm getting run a couple similar circuits from a distro in a bigger rig. I don't have any single device that can draw more than 15 amps. I like that I will be able to power my wedges, stage power and etc in the same way to the distro box every time, then reconfigure some jumpers and run a couple long leads to quickly configure the best distribution of power from the site.  I'll also being getting new stage power and etc - I'm currently looking at OA Windsor. 

From everything I've read, this looks fairly straight forward to put together. That said - I have not done a lot of DIY and it'll be in many ways a new experience. I'm hoping that this thread can help me vet some of the parts I buy and the quality of the final product.

I'm planning on a 4 in, 12 out panel with all 16 holes lined right up on a 1U panel face something like this:
http://www.amazon.com/Penn-Elcom-R1269-1UK-16/dp/B005H3OVQ4
and a second panel with just 1 inlet and perhaps 8 outlets, similar to the above. This is just what came up on a quick google search. It seems something with a box on it like in Rob's design would be ideal, but I was having trouble figuring out the search terms to find something. Any suggestions?

Parts Express has what appears to be the parts I need for the panel:

Inlet
http://www.parts-express.com/neutrik-nac3mpa-1-powercon-chassis-connector-power-in-blue--092-284
Outlet
http://www.parts-express.com/neutrik-nac3mpb-powercon-chassis-connector-power-out-gray--092-286


and for the cables:


NAC3FCA
http://www.parts-express.com/neutrik-nac3fca-powercon-cable-connector-power-in-blue--092-280
NAC3FCB
http://www.parts-express.com/neutrik-nac3fcb-powercon-cable-connector-power-out-gray--092-282


12-3 SJ/SO-OOW should be appropriate cable for everything, correct? I've put some together but never bought it myself. This from Parts Express looks about right, but I'd appreciate suggestions on where (and what) to buy this as well as connectors and etc.
http://www.parts-express.com/carol-12-awg-3c-sjoow-power-cable-250-ft--100-579

I plan to build my main feeder cables with powercon at the distro and NEMA 15-20p on the other end - and I'll tie on a 15-20r to 15-15p adapter on the end of it.

Any general advice? I'm very open to suggestion and direction. Thanks in advance!
I built a 4-circuit 3 output box (16 Powercons on the panel) as described in your thread and really like it.  Some thoughts:

- You must enclose this!  Bare Powercons on the inside of a rack are really dangerous.  Unfortunately, this isn't trivial, as I've never seen an enclosure with the Neutrik-style punched front.  I made my own on my Bridgeport milling machine.  I don't find it particularly hard to get the connectors in and outduring use, but I will say that unless you have some automated means of making the holes, it's very likely you'll end up with a 15-Powercon fill when you're done - the spacing must be very precise or it won't fit.  A 12-socket will be a lot easier to make.

- Conductor fill count - as far as I can tell, NEC table 314.16(B) says you need 2.25 in^3 per conductor.  32 of them requires 72 in^3, which is plenty fine for a 1U 6" deep or greater box.  That all being said, this requirement in this situation is BS - we're not wadding conductors in a junction box - you've got good access, and will not have trouble if you do a neat job.

- THHN wire on the inside is a good idea - it has good abrasion resistance, and can be bent at nice angles, so it's easy to make your wiring neat.

- Definitely use 12-ga wire for everything.

- Some of the other examples used jumper-style wiring to the next Powercon.  I found that very difficult to do (particularly with 16 in a panel), and did mine pigtail style to a screw terminal block.  I soldered the pigtails before mounting the Powercon sockets to the box.  I am in the solder camp for the Powercon tabs, and I used spade connectors at the other end of the pigtails, also soldered.

- I used a breaker panel-style ground bus bar for all of the grounds.  That worked well, and is a simple way to ground your enclosure at the same time.

- Unless you have pre-existing Powercon cabling, I would suggest you look at the new True-1 Powercon stuff - same panel size I believe, but with some really nice features - sort of what Powercon should have been in the first place.

- All of my cabling uses 5-15P -> 5-20R.  I have some devices - my ITechs and dimmer packs - that require a 20R, and this is a great way to provide that. 

- Mine lives in my amp rack.  I like it there, as I can easily configure how the amps go to multiple circuits.  I have sliced the Edison plug off of several C13/C19 cables and replaced with Powercon at the length required for my rack, and it's a nice, clean way to distribuite power.

/end PMD brain dump.

- edit - Oops - another round of brain diarhhea - Middle Atlantic makes enclosed rack boxes: http://www.middleatlantic.com/rackac/chassis/chassis.htm#2

- My main extension cables are all 12/3 SOOW.  NEC 520.68 requires extra-hard service (SOOW or SEOW) cabling for portable stage use.  There are some exemptions, but it's too early in the morning for me to look them all up.  If you want to be sure you're covered, make all your cabling SOOW if it's ever going to be on the floor.   

- This goes without saying, but you're building a non-listed device.  A really anal inspector may call you on that, but IMO that's really unlikely, as if you do a nice job in constructing it, it will look like a manufactured piece of equipment and won't raise any flags, unlike a home load-center on a piece of plywod.   If this bothers you, build the other version of the PMD - 4 rack-mount strips with paint scraped off the backs of the rack ears and the rails.  You'll accomplish the same grounding objective without modifying gear, at the cost of a 4U (or whatever size you make) rack and some lack of coolness. 

- As much as I am usually a code stickler, the PowerCon PMD is one thing that I'm very comfortable with - if it's done correctly, neatly, and in a good enclosure.  The beauty of it is there is no switching, no OCPD, or anything required as the device is all 20A 120V, and requires no fancy power available at the venue, yet it offers a lot of the benefits of a high-current distro with regards to reducing ground issues.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Samuel Rees on December 14, 2013, 10:51:04 AM
The purpose of the "poor man's distro" is to have all grounds at the same potential.  If you don't have issues with hum or buzz now, the only benefit is from having a central patch point for loads.  You're still running 12/3 to 4 separate circuits...

Hum and buzz are definitely issues when running my small PA around town, so that is an upside for me. I expect a central patch point for loads will simplify setup and add consistency to deploying my rig. The other benefit for my rig is that I'm about to replace all my powered boxes with ones that have powerCON, so it seems to make sense to move to a system based on that. More on that in my response to Mr. Cornish.

Your proposed 1 unit, 16 hole strip will likely be very, very tight.  If you look closely at the photo you'll notice that there isn't much metal between holes.  Now think about the wiring you have to do...  I don't remember how Padrick addressed the need for this to be fully inclosed (all 6 sides), preferably in steel (and don't forget to ground the box).  Code also limits the number of conductors and connections within a box based on the cubic volume of the box and the size of the conductors.

I definitely want to fully enclose it - I'm looking for suggestions on that issue. Looks like Mr. Cornish has linked me to something, I'll be looking into that for sure. That link was a quick google link to something where the faceplate just looked right. Speaking of the faceplate - fitting 16 plugs on one faceplate was based on Rob Spence's design in the PSW thread I linked. It looked like he managed it ok - were you thinking it'll be hard to wire on the back, or that the powerCON connectors will be too close for easy field use?

(http://www.stayonline.com/images/referenceimages/nema_15-20p.gif)
NEMA 15-20 is for 3 phase/250v service
Did you mean NEMA 5-20?
(http://www.stayonline.com/images/referenceimages/nema_5-20r.gif)

I definitely meant that, my mistake!
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Samuel Rees on December 14, 2013, 11:12:19 AM
I built a 4-circuit 3 output box (16 Powercons on the panel) as described in your thread and really like it.  Some thoughts:

- You must enclose this!  Bare Powercons on the inside of a rack are really dangerous.  Unfortunately, this isn't trivial, as I've never seen an enclosure with the Neutrik-style punched front.  I made my own on my Bridgeport milling machine.  I don't find it particularly hard to get the connectors in and outduring use, but I will say that unless you have some automated means of making the holes, it's very likely you'll end up with a 15-Powercon fill when you're done - the spacing must be very precise or it won't fit.  A 12-socket will be a lot easier to make.

I definitely want to enclose it. My friend suggested perhaps the opposite solution - getting a faceplate with D Series holes, then riveting a case onto it. I could get one of those mid-atlantic cases, cut the back of the case off, then rivet it to the punched front. What do you think? I'll also keep looking, maybe it exists pre-made. Maybe EWI could make it for me?

- THHN wire on the inside is a good idea - it has good abrasion resistance, and can be bent at nice angles, so it's easy to make your wiring neat.
- Definitely use 12-ga wire for everything.

Understood. Any suggestions on where to buy this stuff, or how much I should expect it to cost? Does that Carol Cable roll look about right?

- Unless you have pre-existing Powercon cabling, I would suggest you look at the new True-1 Powercon stuff - same panel size I believe, but with some really nice features - sort of what Powercon should have been in the first place.

I looked at True-1, it does seem better than original powerCON by design. However, from what I understand it is not backwards compatible in any way with original powerCON, and I'm about to buy these powered boxes with original powerCON. It would seem to defeat some of the purpose to not move to one connector systemwide. Am I understanding this correctly?

My main extension cables are all 12/3 SOOW.  NEC 520.68 requires extra-hard service (SOOW or SEOW) cabling for portable stage use.  There are some exemptions, but it's too early in the morning for me to look them all up.  If you want to be sure you're covered, make all your cabling SOOW if it's ever going to be on the floor.   

I'm not very familiar with all these SOOW and etc cable ratings. I've only just begun to learn about it. So the SJOOW I linked is an inappropriate cable? Do you have any suggestions on where to buy this? I'd love a link to something. I'd love if there is somewhere I could get all the powerCON plugs and etc, as well as the 12/3.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Samuel Rees on December 14, 2013, 11:26:48 AM
PS - Can anyone explain why I see some pre-made powerCON and powerCON to Edison cables made with 14-3? This confuses me.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 14, 2013, 12:07:44 PM
PS - Can anyone explain why I see some pre-made powerCON and powerCON to Edison cables made with 14-3? This confuses me.

14 ga wire is suitable for 15 amp devices (like the NEMA 5-15 that we use almost everywhere in the USA).

The presence of the letter "J" in a portable cord description means "Junior hard-service".  Code requires "extra-hard service" ratings for feeders and stage cabling.  The absence of the "J" means the cord is "extra."  From a practical standpoint this means both the conductor insulation and the outer cable jacket are thicker and hence the outside diameter of extra-hard services cords is greater.  SO, SOOW, SOW, SEOOW, SC and a couple others are acceptable.
Title: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Samuel Rees on December 14, 2013, 12:12:58 PM
Understood. Any recommendations for where I can buy this sort of cable? I think I'd like to opt towards the lighter end of whatever is up to code. Weight and space matter especially in my little rig.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: John Fruits on December 14, 2013, 12:20:30 PM
The "J" in the cable you listed stands for Junior service, and it is not quite as heavy duty as SO type cable.  SJ cable is allowed for short runs for such things as power input cables (sometimes called whips or tails), and for twofers.  Also, I have been told my numerous people, that when talking about adaptor cables, you name the male end first. 
Full Compass also sells the Neutrik powercon items.   For cable, since it is bulky and heavy look into local sources.  There are many "to the trade" electrical wholesalers who will sell to anyone. 
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 14, 2013, 12:43:11 PM
Understood. Any recommendations for where I can buy this sort of cable? I think I'd like to opt towards the lighter end of whatever is up to code. Weight and space matter especially in my little rig.

Elastomer-jacketed cables tend to be lighter weight.  That's the "E" in SEOOW.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Samuel Rees on December 14, 2013, 12:45:58 PM
Sounds perfect. Thank you sir. Not sure where to start, I'll be googling later and scope out my local Home Depot.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 14, 2013, 02:20:32 PM
Sounds perfect. Thank you sir. Not sure where to start, I'll be googling later and scope out my local Home Depot.

Root research can be done at the cable manufacturer level... Carol, Coleman, Southwire - there are others - all have weight, dimensional and rating agency data on their web sites.

Your best deal on price will come from buying full, 250' spools rather than 'cuts' and you may find a better deal by shopping local/regional electrical supply stores.  If they say they sell only to the trade, tell them you are an OEM building a prototype.  Most of them won't care and just want to make the sale.  Copper is a commodity with prices changing daily so it will pay to call around as not every vendor updates his prices in lockstep with the market, but many do.  If you find a "killer deal" on line I will offer two caveats:  it may be thinner copper with more insulation (dangerous fakery) or it's legit but shipping will negate any cost savings.  There have been forum posts about both...

Ken at OA Windsor is a nice guy who really listens to his customers and makes a quality product.  His PowerCon® boxes are largely the result of folks in our tiny little spec of an industry asking for them.  We're very pleased with everything Ken has made for us and expect our Windsor boxes to still be in use 30 years from now.  Buy once. ;)

Now for the topic swerve...  if you have system hums almost everywhere you work I submit you have a system problem.  I don't want to discourage you from building the PowerCon® patchbay/distro - I think your goal of simplicity & consistency is spot on - but the underlying problem is still there.  Just sayin'....
Title: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Samuel Rees on December 14, 2013, 02:38:19 PM
I should have been more clear on that last bit - I don't have a recurring grounding problem any more than any 1-4 circuit small provider. It's more like "I don't often have ground related hum, but when I do its annoying as %\*€" and takes valuable time out of my deployment to solve even if it's brief. It's just another benefit of the project. I see consistency,  simplicity, and interfacing with new powerCON gear as the primary goal. Being able to ask my other guy to wire the stage same as ever, while just Figure out where to run 1-4 feeders from sounds amazing.

I'll look into it and be sure to go for the full spools. Also - Ill scope manufacturer sites in advance for the cable: 12-3 SEOxxx.

When you say "sell to the trade" does that mean electrician companies or just businesses in general? I'll keep the strategies you mentioned in mind, I'm sure I can convince someone...

I'm sold on OA Windsor - I've heard these same words about him before and it sounds like a no brainer. I was thinking about 4 PowerCon to Edison quads and a PowerCon mult. I'd use 2 quads downstage and two quads upstage for band power powered off "loop 4" from my PMD, each line coming off of the mult.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Brian Bolly on December 14, 2013, 03:15:36 PM
I should have been more clear on that last bit - I don't have a recurring grounding problem any more than any 1-4 circuit small provider. It's more like "I don't often have ground related hum, but when I do its annoying as %\*€" and takes valuable time out of my deployment to solve even if it's brief. It's just another benefit of the project. I see consistency,  simplicity, and interfacing with new powerCON gear as the primary goal. Being able to ask my other guy to wire the stage same as ever, while just Figure out where to run 1-4 feeders from sounds amazing.

I'll look into it and be sure to go for the full spools. Also - Ill scope manufacturer sites in advance for the cable: 12-3 SEOxxx.

When you say "sell to the trade" does that mean electrician companies or just businesses in general? I'll keep the strategies you mentioned in mind, I'm sure I can convince someone...


A couple of the "go-to" sites for cable might be Camel Traders (http://acesny.com/Camel_Traders.html), as well as Nassau Wire (http://www.nassauwireandcable.com).  In a fairly recent search for some cable, the cost of a spool + shipping was still a savings over the prices some of the local suppliers had given me.

Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Jon Ross on December 14, 2013, 06:04:55 PM
Par metal sells metal enclosures for decent prices. They come with an aluminum faceplate but they might sell one to you without one. You can use a pre punched steel panel as a front. The front attaches with just 2 screws on each side. I don't think a 16 hole panel will work though, you'd need a panel with more space on the sides to attach the enclosure.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: George Dougherty on December 14, 2013, 11:56:54 PM
A couple of the "go-to" sites for cable might be Camel Traders (http://acesny.com/Camel_Traders.html), as well as Nassau Wire (http://www.nassauwireandcable.com).  In a fairly recent search for some cable, the cost of a spool + shipping was still a savings over the prices some of the local suppliers had given me.
+1 on camel traders. They stock the Coleman CCI Royal cable that will actually fit in a powercon connector as 12/3 SOOW.  That's apparently not common. It's also the neoprene type jacketing which is really nice handling.  A 250' spool wasn't cheap, but I'd highly recommend looking for the CCI Royal stuff if you want something nice to deal with.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Samuel Rees on December 15, 2013, 03:52:04 PM

+1 on camel traders. They stock the Coleman CCI Royal cable that will actually fit in a powercon connector as 12/3 SOOW.  That's apparently not common. It's also the neoprene type jacketing which is really nice handling.  A 250' spool wasn't cheap, but I'd highly recommend looking for the CCI Royal stuff if you want something nice to deal with.

Sounds great, I'll look into that. It's been suggested that I consider SEOOW because of a possible weight reduction which is a very serious consideration for me. You were saying not all 12/3 will fit in a PowerCon connection - this worries me. How can I identify what will and won't? Is there another spec?
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 15, 2013, 05:22:01 PM
Sounds great, I'll look into that. It's been suggested that I consider SEOOW because of a possible weight reduction which is a very serious consideration for me. You were saying not all 12/3 will fit in a PowerCon connection - this worries me. How can I identify what will and won't? Is there another spec?


I will be blunt- all the info you seek is readily available from the manufacturers of the various stuff you intend to use.  Neutrik publishes the min/max cable O.D. that will fit the
Ethercon strain relief chuck.  The cable makers publish the O.D of every wire and cable they make.  Is it really that difficult to find this information?
A few minutes with the search engine of your choice will provide the answers much quicker than we can look it up for you and then post it here.

The weight savings of SEOOW is minimal.  If you're carrying all the cables on your back I can see where a couple of pounds per 100' would be important, but in the scenario you propose I doubt you'll save more than 20 pounds for the whole kit.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Samuel Rees on December 15, 2013, 07:53:37 PM


I will be blunt- all the info you seek is readily available from the manufacturers of the various stuff you intend to use.  Neutrik publishes the min/max cable O.D. that will fit the
Ethercon strain relief chuck.  The cable makers publish the O.D of every wire and cable they make.  Is it really that difficult to find this information?
A few minutes with the search engine of your choice will provide the answers much quicker than we can look it up for you and then post it here.

The weight savings of SEOOW is minimal.  If you're carrying all the cables on your back I can see where a couple of pounds per 100' would be important, but in the scenario you propose I doubt you'll save more than 20 pounds for the whole kit.

I'll look into those specs from the various manufacturers, thanks. This is just very new territory for me - I appreciate the help, even if my questions are silly. I hadn't even considered the diameters of the jacket or the core in relation to the PowerCON strain relief or interior clips, because I've never done this before. I have a friend who is going to help me out with teaching me some of the procedure for wiring as he has much more experience with this. 20-30 pounds for the whole thing is a little less than weight of the one extra powered speaker, all carried in my small SUV which is currently at about weight capacity. Once I've got a real number in front of me, it may or may not matter, but I definitely want to think about it. I have the goal of redoing most of my rig, getting a little more capable, but staying at about the same weight (which means I have to slim down).

Thanks again everyone. I have a lot of research to do from your direction. I'll post back once I've identified a choice for my 12/3, and then I'll just be waiting for parts to arrive.

PS - Powercon specs say 6-15 mm for the cable diameter. Southwire 12/3 SEOOW is ~15.2 mm and SOOW is ~15.4.  I see what you mean about this being possibly tight. Thats just the first cable I've looked at. Neutrik does interestingly spec 14/3 on their PowerCON connector. That still seems confusing. I get that 14/3 is regular 15A service and makes sense for many applications, but wouldn't they put 12/3 as the primary spec which matches the 20A service rating? Here is the link:

http://www.neutrik.com/en/audio/powercon/powercon-20-a/nac3fcb

I guess it doesn't matter because I want to buy in one big spool for the price, so 12/3 all the way it is. Just curious.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Nils Erickson on December 19, 2013, 01:37:02 AM
Hey Samuel,

I was in a similar spot a couple years back.  I built all of my power cabling from 12/3 SO; I ordered all the bulk cable from Camel Traders.  They are nice people with good pricing.  It is a tight fit.  Build lots of good edison-powercon feeders, and use a high quality edison like Hubbell.  Think in advance about how you want to mark/identify your cabling, and how you want to wrap it (velcro or tie line).

Likewise, I ordered my powercon quad boxes from Ken at OA Windsor. Also a great guy with good pricing. 

Might I suggest you look at this instead of trying to do it yourself:
http://www.triktags.com/power.htm
I ordered one of these and it is great.  The cost savings of doing yourself seems negligible to me, especially when you will spend half of the retail price on the powercons anyway.

Cheers, and have fun putting this stuff together.  It is a bit of work.  But, you can't find it commercially anywhere I don't think. Someone will likely prove me wrong, but I have never seen 12/3 SO cables for sale; you simply have to make them.

Nils
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Josh Millward on December 19, 2013, 06:16:06 PM
I'm getting ready to put together my own build of the "poormans" PowerCON Distro that has been discussed here and linked from here:

Any general advice? I'm very open to suggestion and direction. Thanks in advance!

Middle Atlantic makes both the rack mount box and the rack panel for you. You just need to add the connectors and wire it up.

As has been already mentioned, the box can be found here: Middle Atlantic Econo-Chassis 1, 2, & 3 (http://www.middleatlantic.com/rackac/chassis/chassis.htm)

The laser cut, pre configured rack panel can be found here: Middle Atlantic UNI-1 and UNI-2 (http://www.middleatlantic.com/rackac/chassis/chassis.htm)

Yes, they are both on the same page, on either side of the 10" deep rack mount box. In this case, I would expect that the 6" deep box should be plenty deep enough to fit everything in. You may need to do a little "body work" to get the rack mount box and the face plate to mate up, but I would not worry about it much because it is going in a rack where you don't have to look at anything besides the front panel.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Chris Jensen on December 19, 2013, 06:56:59 PM
Might be a slight topic swerve, but it might also be of use in this project.  Just out of curiosity what is the Neutrik SCDR accessory part for?  I have seen it in pictures as a backing for powercons panel mounts.  Never handling one, I'm not sure if it is an insulating material or not.  Here is the product picture from Neutrik:
http://www.neutrik.us/en-us/speakon/speakon-chassis-connectors-accessories/scdr
Neutrik is using it as a simple cover.

After Googleing the product, I found it at Mouser listing it under the category for AC power plug covers:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Neutrik/SCDR/?qs=R5cXQUTKuHVWH2LTVdPAcw==

I want to build a patch panel for a small amp rack that is fed with the new breakable Powercon True1 line.  I wonder if the SCDR allows to not have to use an enclose for simple panel mount applications?
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Samuel Rees on December 19, 2013, 09:31:29 PM
Several interesting posts.

1 - I've never seen a commercial product like this before. It must be somewhat new because others in the previous PMD threads had not seen this.

2 - PowerCon True1: it looks more functional than original PowerCon in every way. But, it is completely incompatible with original PowerCon, correct? How did you select True1, then - Is it that you don't have any existing PowerCon gear in your inventory and just need a locking connector for certain racks rather than an ecosystem? Or have user products begun carrying true1?
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on December 19, 2013, 10:33:57 PM
Several interesting posts.

1 - I've never seen a commercial product like this before. It must be somewhat new because others in the previous PMD threads had not seen this.

2 - PowerCon True1: it looks more functional than original PowerCon in every way. But, it is completely incompatible with original PowerCon, correct? How did you select True1, then - Is it that you don't have any existing PowerCon gear in your inventory and just need a locking connector for certain racks rather than an ecosystem? Or have user products begun carrying true1?
If it were me, I would do the True1 version - there's no downside, really, and potentially significant upside.  You may have a few products that use old-style Powercon, but probably not very many.  A couple old-True1 cables would solve that problem, and you get the benefit of standardizing your distro gear on a much more normal linkable power scheme, unlike the confusion of white vs. blue old Powercon.

As time passes, True1 will likely replace regular Powercon.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Chris Jensen on December 19, 2013, 10:52:59 PM
Several interesting posts.

1 - I've never seen a commercial product like this before. It must be somewhat new because others in the previous PMD threads had not seen this.

2 - PowerCon True1: it looks more functional than original PowerCon in every way. But, it is completely incompatible with original PowerCon, correct? How did you select True1, then - Is it that you don't have any existing PowerCon gear in your inventory and just need a locking connector for certain racks rather than an ecosystem? Or have user products begun carrying true1?

I'm not sure how long the SCDR has been around.  The first time I saw it was listed as an accessory to NL4 panel mounts. 

The True1 is not compatible with the blue and grey powercons.  In my current stock of gear I have no powercons, starting from scratch this seems like the way to go.  Best I can tell they were only introduced a month or so ago.  I am working on a collage campus with novice operators.  Although they are bright workers, I don't want to risk anything by tempting breaking under load if I have the choice.  What I really am looking for more than a full distro, is a way to get power to my rack in a clean locking connector.  The SCDR looks very attractive if it can be mounted on a panel and not in its own box.  I am out of rack space and can't afford another slot for a single power drop. 

The draw back to these connectors are that they are only 16amps.  I see them being very popular on lighting instruments where you want to daisy chain the instruments.  I'm blanking on ETC LED lighting instruments at the moment, but I don't believe they have a local power switch.  Because they are using relay power, not dimmers, I don't see how you can not break the standard powercons not under load.  This seems like the market where this product is really geared for.

I have considered making a PMD for my new small portable systems for around campus.  Within my FOH mixer rack I would be able to power powered speakers off of the same power as my rack rather than the closest outlet.  All cable would loom back to the rack in either 25' or 50' cable runs, power and signal.  Again with breakable power I don't have to worry about the order things get done it.  Sometimes I have 3 people out doing a small setup all working on different parts. 

Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Chris Jensen on December 19, 2013, 10:56:00 PM
If it were me, I would do the True1 version - there's no downside, really, and potentially significant upside.  You may have a few products that use old-style Powercon, but probably not very many.  A couple old-True1 cables would solve that problem, and you get the benefit of standardizing your distro gear on a much more normal linkable power scheme, unlike the confusion of white vs. blue old Powercon.

As time passes, True1 will likely replace regular Powercon.

As far as old gear with powercons, does Neutrik even make pcb mounts?  I don't see them listed on their site.  I bet it would be simple enough to change out the panel mount on any old gear for the new True1 and you would never have to worry about it.

The only downside is that they are 16amps, not the full 20amps.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Tommy Peel on December 20, 2013, 12:11:06 AM
Been following this thread for a while.

Anyway, I was looking up the True1 connectors on Neutrik's website and noticed that they refer the the True1 as a 16/20A several times and to 16A(20A US) in another place.

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/20/5uhage5y.jpg)

What are they referring to and what is the rating of the connector at 120vac and at 230vac?

Sent from my Nexus 4 running OmniROM 4.4 KitKat using Tapatalk Pro

Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Samuel Rees on December 20, 2013, 12:48:34 AM

Been following this thread for a while.

Anyway, I was looking up the True1 connectors on Neutrik's website and noticed that they refer the the True1 as a 16/20A several times and to 16A(20A US) in another place.

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/20/5uhage5y.jpg)

What are they referring to and what is the rating of the connector at 120vac and at 230vac?

Sent from my Nexus 4 running OmniROM 4.4 KitKat using Tapatalk Pro

Interesting. I'm about to replace the powered boxes I have with RCF NX 12s on the "box-a-month" plan. I can't modify the box, I want to retain a warranty. I wish there was a way I could do this with True1, but how could I do that with 6 brand new original PowerCon wedges? I'm
Bummed that doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Samuel Rees on December 20, 2013, 12:50:58 AM
Topic swerve welcomed. Definitely a lot of group interest in PowerCon, it's a good thread.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: George Dougherty on December 20, 2013, 01:52:43 AM
Interesting. I'm about to replace the powered boxes I have with RCF NX 12s on the "box-a-month" plan. I can't modify the box, I want to retain a warranty. I wish there was a way I could do this with True1, but how could I do that with 6 brand new original PowerCon wedges? I'm
Bummed that doesn't make sense.

The major difference is that Powercon isn't rated for making/breaking connections under load.  Leave the wedge(s) switched off while you're cabling them together and it's a non-issue.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Nils Erickson on December 20, 2013, 04:07:14 AM
Interesting. I'm about to replace the powered boxes I have with RCF NX 12s on the "box-a-month" plan. I can't modify the box, I want to retain a warranty. I wish there was a way I could do this with True1, but how could I do that with 6 brand new original PowerCon wedges? I'm
Bummed that doesn't make sense.
Personally, I wouldn't worry about it too much.  If you build the True1 cables, you are going to need to make adapters.  Probably for quite a while, as lots of useful gear uses powercon now, including your wedges.  So, make a bunch of short cables with a True1 connector, and the blue powercon on the other side. 

The other major upside to the new connector is that they mate without an adapter.  The blue-grey powercon mate is $15 or so, to connect your cables together.  If you are using quad boxes, this is a little less of an issue, but you will still want some.  Another upside is that they are IP65 rated.

I am curious to see how quickly this connector is adopted by other manufacturers.  Personally, I have never had an issue with the non-breaking aspect of powercon.  I have hundreds of feet of this cable in my inventory, lots of devices that use it, and close to 30 quad boxes as well... I don't see myself changing it any time soon; it works great, and it will be some time before we start seeing this other connector in use.  The thought of having two systems to work with current inventory is not appealing at all, as you are seeing now...

I wish the new "outlet" connector they are making also fit in the "D" size hole like all of the other ones... that would make swapping them out eventually much easier.

Nils
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Geoff Doane on December 20, 2013, 10:37:13 AM

The only downside is that they are 16amps, not the full 20amps.

It's been pointed out that they are rated for 20A if the voltage is only 120 (not 230V).

However, the major downside, IMHO, is that virtually no commercial product uses the True1.  Maybe some day that will change, but it could turn out to be another Elcassette (if that reference makes no sense to you, Google it!)

With a bit of planning, the lack of mating between cable connectors is not a problem.  I've been using a PowerCon based stage distro system for over five years now, and don't even have any couplers.  On the rare occasion that I need to join two cables, I just use a quad box.  Cable kits consist of 1m, 5m and 15m cables (3, 15 and 50 ft. for the metric challenged), with a 38m run for FOH.  That works for me, as long as the distro is located at the stage.  I use my own PVC electrical boxes for the quads, but if I was doing it again, I'd spend a bit more for the OA Windsor quads.

All racks and all quad boxes have in and out connectors, so I can daisy chain around the stage.  My powered subs also have in and out connectors, so they integrate well with the stage power.

In my experience, the PowerCons have proven to be as reliable as the Hubbell Twist-Locks that preceded them.  With no exposed pins, bending them isn't a problem, and if something does get damaged (I've lost the odd spring and latch), you can do a field repair with nothing more than a crescent wrench (and a spare connector, which is worth far less than a new twist-lock).

My biggest complaint with them is that it's a very tough fit for 12/3 SOOW cable, but apparently, the True1 is worse in that regard (only 12mm instead of 15mm for the original).  Whirlwind and Digiflex have distro products out there using PowerCons, but they appear to be building them with 12/3 SJ00W cable, not S-type. 

Has anybody actually seen a True1 in the wild? (trade shows don't count  ;) )

GTD
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Steve M Smith on December 20, 2013, 12:01:07 PM
It's been pointed out that they are rated for 20A if the voltage is only 120 (not 230V).

Current is current.  The voltage is irrelevant.


Steve.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Geoff Doane on December 20, 2013, 01:37:41 PM
Current is current.  The voltage is irrelevant.

Not if you're going to break that current, and the True1 is specified as a current breaking connector (CBC).  This is particularly true with switches.  Here are the specs from a couple I pulled at random from the parts bins:

C&K toggle switch: 2A @ 250 VAC, 5A @ 120 VAC

Miltac microswitch: 6A @ 250 VAC, 0.1A @ 125 VDC, 1/8 HP @ 125/250 VAC

The current varies all over the place, especially if you're switching DC.

GTD
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Nils Erickson on December 20, 2013, 02:25:33 PM

However, the major downside, IMHO, is that virtually no commercial product uses the True1.  Maybe some day that will change, but it could turn out to be another Elcassette (if that reference makes no sense to you, Google it!)

In my experience, the PowerCons have proven to be as reliable as the Hubbell Twist-Locks that preceded them.  With no exposed pins, bending them isn't a problem, and if something does get damaged (I've lost the odd spring and latch), you can do a field repair with nothing more than a crescent wrench (and a spare connector, which is worth far less than a new twist-lock).

My biggest complaint with them is that it's a very tough fit for 12/3 SOOW cable, but apparently, the True1 is worse in that regard (only 12mm instead of 15mm for the original).  Whirlwind and Digiflex have distro products out there using PowerCons, but they appear to be building them with 12/3 SJ00W cable, not S-type. 

GTD

Totally agree with Geoff here.  Not sure how people will squeeze 12/3 SO into that connector, as it can be very tight on the current ones. 

FWIW, I did find a commercially available 12/3 SO powercon assembly (I said I hadn't seen one previously in this thread); you can custom order them from Motion Labs.  They also build distros with powercon outs.

As a curious side question here:  Why do you suppose these commercially available cable assemblies from Whirlwind and Digiflex use 12/3 SJ?

Cheers,
Nils
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Samuel Rees on December 20, 2013, 03:22:15 PM
All original PowerCon cabling at the venues I've been at this week have been SJOOW (I've been looking :). One venue has a huge stock from
Clair Bros with Carol Cable 12/3 SJOOW.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Rob Spence on December 20, 2013, 10:51:32 PM
Hum and buzz are definitely issues when running my small PA around town, so that is an upside for me. I expect a central patch point for loads will simplify setup and add consistency to deploying my rig. The other benefit for my rig is that I'm about to replace all my powered boxes with ones that have powerCON, so it seems to make sense to move to a system based on that. More on that in my response to Mr. Cornish.

I definitely want to fully enclose it - I'm looking for suggestions on that issue. Looks like Mr. Cornish has linked me to something, I'll be looking into that for sure. That link was a quick google link to something where the faceplate just looked right. Speaking of the faceplate - fitting 16 plugs on one faceplate was based on Rob Spence's design in the PSW thread I linked. It looked like he managed it ok - were you thinking it'll be hard to wire on the back, or that the powerCON connectors will be too close for easy field use?

I definitely meant that, my mistake!

My first version used a pre punched 16 hole plate. As I wrote in the thread you linked, version 2 only had 12 holes as the connectors were too close with 16.

Also, starting with a rack box made it safer.

I found I never used 4 inputs for the rigs I would use wall power for. Three was plenty.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Steve M Smith on December 21, 2013, 06:34:19 AM
Not if you're going to break that current

Yes.  I didn't consider that.


Steve.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Samuel Rees on January 07, 2014, 12:16:46 PM
Checking back in on my PMD and related endeavors.

For the unit itself, I'm going with the premade product previously linked here. It is priced reasonably above the cost of parts, and seems to have a superior design to what I would by building with its solderless rear connections and PCB. Also, I can't mess it up. Until now I has never seen a device like this off the shelf, even with years of PMD threads.

Kirby Y and I have an order out for the RCF NX 12s from Mike Pyle - with whom we've had a superb experience. Thanks Mike! Also ordered some PowerCon quads from Ken @ OA Windsor, looking forward to getting them.

I've decided to go with leads of 12/3 SO/SEOOW to feed the PMD, and 12/3 SJOOW for everything else. Just picked up the SJ, I went with Southwire "Viper" 12/3 SJOOW. Bought a 250ft roll of it at Home Depot for $220. Found it online and picked up so no shipping. I was surprised because this was the best price I could find anywhere.  Many of their other cables seemed to be overpriced, the SJ by the foot was 30% more. I chose to use SJ for my cables between boxes, jumpers and etc because of significant weight and cost savings over SO/SE, and because the outer diameter actually fits in the spec for the PowerCon strain relief. I'm still looking at different models on the SE/SO, because all of it so far is over 15mm (the spec max OD on the PowerCon). Carol seems "close enough". Additionally, most all the stage PowerCon I've found at venues is Carol 12/3 SJOOW. PowerCon connectors from Parts Express.

Finally, a question. What connector should I put on the feeder cables? My first thought was to put a 5-20p and them build an adapter cable to 5-15p for when I have 15a plugs. My issue with that is that I'll be working with 15a only plugs plenty of time, I don't love the idea of a non-locking adapter in my main power chain for 40% of my gigs. Will the 5-15p plug from P&S actually have contacts rated to take 20amps from a 15r/20r  receptacle? That would be ideal - then I'd just get an adapter cable for the odd time I encounter a 20r ONLY, non combo plug. But using a 15p for a 20a circuit doesn't sound very code. Suggestions?


 
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on January 07, 2014, 01:41:23 PM

Finally, a question. What connector should I put on the feeder cables? My first thought was to put a 5-20p and them build an adapter cable to 5-15p for when I have 15a plugs. My issue with that is that I'll be working with 15a only plugs plenty of time, I don't love the idea of a non-locking adapter in my main power chain for 40% of my gigs. Will the 5-15p plug from P&S actually have contacts rated to take 20amps from a 15r/20r  receptacle? That would be ideal - then I'd just get an adapter cable for the odd time I encounter a 20r ONLY, non combo plug. But using a 15p for a 20a circuit doesn't sound very code. Suggestions?
Put 5-15P on your cables and 5-20Rs for Edison outs.  There is no current-carrying difference between the 5-15P and 5-20P - it's just one blade turned 90°.  You're not going to get an ETL listing with a 5-15P to a device designed for 20A, but I doubt you're building a product for resale.  I've never heard of an inspector caring as long as the cabling is 12-ga.

By the way - there is not a 20A only non-locking 120 volt receptacle - the 5-20R accepts both 5-15P and 5-20P.  If you encounter anything else, BE VERY CAREFUL.  If the receptacle is weird, it's likely unreliable, illegal, or intended for a different purpose.  On a related note - many L5-20R receptacles are dimmed, and therefore unsuitable for general-purpose power.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Lyle Williams on January 07, 2014, 02:48:45 PM
I don't know what the wiring rules are in the US, but there may be a limit on the legal feeder length.  A long feeder results in a voltage drop, but more importantly results in a higher fault current impedance; if this gets too high an upstream breaker may not trip promptly.

Down here in 230V Oz for a 10a circuit I can go 60m with 2.5mm2 (~13ga) and 100m with 4mm2 (~11ga)

Halve those distances for a 20a circuit.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Samuel Rees on January 07, 2014, 03:30:12 PM

Put 5-15P on your cables and 5-20Rs for Edison outs.  There is no current-carrying difference between the 5-15P and 5-20P - it's just one blade turned 90°.  You're not going to get an ETL listing with a 5-15P to a device designed for 20A, but I doubt you're building a product for resale.  I've never heard of an inspector caring as long as the cabling is 12-ga.

By the way - there is not a 20A only non-locking 120 volt receptacle - the 5-20R accepts both 5-15P and 5-20P.  If you encounter anything else, BE VERY CAREFUL.  If the receptacle is weird, it's likely unreliable, illegal, or intended for a different purpose.  On a related note - many L5-20R receptacles are dimmed, and therefore unsuitable for general-purpose power.

Thanks so much, that perfectly answers my question and I will look out for that receptacle. I didn't realize that!
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Rob Spence on January 07, 2014, 03:47:52 PM
Thanks so much, that perfectly answers my question and I will look out for that receptacle. I didn't realize that!

I like the Pass & Seymour cord caps. Good strain relief and good quality screws and such. They are a bit more $$$ but worth it IMHO.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on January 07, 2014, 04:55:34 PM
I don't know what the wiring rules are in the US, but there may be a limit on the legal feeder length.  A long feeder results in a voltage drop, but more importantly results in a higher fault current impedance; if this gets too high an upstream breaker may not trip promptly.

Down here in 230V Oz for a 10a circuit I can go 60m with 2.5mm2 (~13ga) and 100m with 4mm2 (~11ga)

Halve those distances for a 20a circuit.
I don't know the code references off the top of my head, but voltage drop can certainly be an issue.  You're supposed to have less than 5% voltage drop at the device, but this is pie in the sky in some cases, in my experience. 

When playing with the receptacle load tester that several of us got on Woot last month, I discovered that many of the receptacles in my house fail the voltage drop test.  The older part of my house has 15A circuits and was cheaply wired (back-stabbed rather than screwed), so that didn't shock me.  What did surprise me was that some receptacles in the newer area of my house where I did the wiring - 12-ga wire, screws, lots of branch circuits so no long runs of like 10 receptacles on a circuit - a few still showed a little low.  Some of this I'm sure is the fact that I have 300' of feeder from the pole to my panel, but it did surprise me a little.

Power distribution is complicated, and there are nuances to watch out for.  Much of the NEC relates to fire prevention (it's published by the National Fire Protection Association), and therefore ampacities are specified so as to not overheat distribution components; and suitability to a purpose (noise immunity, acceptable voltage levels, etc.) is left as an exercise to the engineer. 

I'm curious to see the results of a poll of feeder sizes - 2/0 single conductor cable is rated at 175 amps.  4/0 is rated at 400 amps.  I've never seen a distro with a 175A breaker - they're pretty much either 100, 200, or 400.  How many folks fudge and use 2/0 feeder to a 200A breaker?  I bet a lot.

A personal anecdote - undersized feeders are the norm in virtually all of the hotels I work in - 4/4 SOOW cord feeding a 100A panel, L15-series receptacles with no neutral wire, etc.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on January 07, 2014, 05:55:21 PM
NEC 210.19.A.1 Fine print note actually recommends a threshhold of 3%-or 3.6 volts 0n 120 VAC.  Given the resistance of #12 Cu, unless I blew a calculation, it only takes 56 ft at 20 amps to get that kind of drop-but you have to figure both ways so really only 28 ft of romex.  The threshold of 5% includes the drop on the feeder as well.

If the tester is using a full 20 A load and the 3% threshold, a failure is not too surprising-in practice we would rarely see a full 20 A load-especially in a residence.  Voltage drop is not as much a safety issue as a function issue-too l low a voltage and stuff won't work as advertised.

I would guess the 200 Amp-2/0 fudge is because 2/0 is OK for a residential 200 A service-its easy to forget to go to "full size" when doing  feeder (which a distro is).  But that is heading OT.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Lyle Williams on January 07, 2014, 08:58:59 PM
If the resistance (impedance) of the long feeder cable is too high then a short circuit at the end of the cable may not cause the breaker to open quickly enough.

I think with typical breakers down here the fault current needs to be at least 7.5 times the breaker rating for an immediate trip.

So for a 10A 230v circuit here the permisable impedance is 3 ohms.  About half an ohm will be the supply impedance.  Some of the remaining 2.5 ohms will be taken by the fixed wiring.  Remember that you need to account for the wire losses both ways (active and ground wires). 

Too long a feeder results in a longer breaker trip time.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Samuel Rees on January 07, 2014, 10:15:43 PM
Well, I don't imagine I'll be running into these problems. A bit of a topic swerve.

I'll follow up when I get my distro and report on its build quality, along with ken's boxes and etc! I'm a little bummed that all this DIY spirit has gone to waste, but I'm comfortable with my conclusions.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Lyle Williams on January 08, 2014, 01:03:13 AM
No worries.  I don't know what length of feeder you were planning on.  If you don't go super long, no need for any calculations.  :-)
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Samuel Rees on January 08, 2014, 02:01:43 PM

No worries.  I don't know what length of feeder you were planning on.  If you don't go super long, no need for any calculations.  :-)

I was thinking of making 2 x 50ft leads haha.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Chad V. Holtkamp on January 08, 2014, 04:21:05 PM
NEC 210.19.A.1 Fine print note actually recommends a threshhold of 3%-or 3.6 volts 0n 120 VAC.  Given the resistance of #12 Cu, unless I blew a calculation, it only takes 56 ft at 20 amps to get that kind of drop-but you have to figure both ways so really only 28 ft of romex.  The threshold of 5% includes the drop on the feeder as well.

I was curious about this as I'm looking to make some extension cords and debating #10 or #12 SOOW. Using the calculator at http://www.gorhamschaffler.com/wire_size_calculator.html (http://www.gorhamschaffler.com/wire_size_calculator.html) I came up with these for the max lengths with the 3% drop.

20 amps - #12 - ~45 feet
15 amps - #12 - ~60 feet

20 amps - #10 - ~72 feet
15 amps - #10 - ~96 feet

Does it look like I figured these correctly?
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on January 08, 2014, 05:07:27 PM
I was curious about this as I'm looking to make some extension cords and debating #10 or #12 SOOW. Using the calculator at http://www.gorhamschaffler.com/wire_size_calculator.html (http://www.gorhamschaffler.com/wire_size_calculator.html) I came up with these for the max lengths with the 3% drop.

20 amps - #12 - ~45 feet
15 amps - #12 - ~60 feet

20 amps - #10 - ~72 feet
15 amps - #10 - ~96 feet

Does it look like I figured these correctly?
You're probably in the range.  Most receptacles have more than 45' of cabling between the box and the receptacle, not to mention feeder length, and whatever you plug into the wall - you can be done before you start.  Most pro gear will operate down below 110v - which is why things work at all, but this should be a good indication that stringing together a bunch of orange 18-ga cables for 200' isn't a good idea.

I'll go about 150' total from building power using conventional cabling, and will put heavy-current stuff as close to the source as possible.  Farther than that, it's generator time.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Chad V. Holtkamp on January 08, 2014, 05:32:56 PM
Sounds good. I'm lucky if I get one decent circuit so I'll go with #10 just to be safe.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Samuel Rees on January 08, 2014, 06:12:51 PM
I don't think any 10/3 SOOW will fit in a PowerCon connector (15mm). Most 12/3 SOOW squeezes in at +1mm over spec.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Samuel Rees on January 14, 2014, 02:18:23 PM
My PMD arrived today! Looks great. Super solid construction. I didn't realize that the ground bussing would occur with jumpers on the back of the box, although I get that now with a re-read. Works great though - sturdy cable and sturdy jump terminals. Professional fit and finish. So far I would definitely recommend this - it doesn't seem like I could have build a product this robust myself.

PowerCon plugs arrived from parts express as well, so I started building.

The SJOOW I bought fits perfectly in the chuck, not to big and not to small, while the 12/3 barely squeezes into the conductor terminal.  Pretty difficult to get it all in there without loosing a thread of the 12g. Zero chance anything with bigger conductors would fit in without cutting the tip down. Excellent behavior from the jacket, coils extremely well right off the roll. Will pick up some Southwire SOOW very soon to make my feeders.

Unrelated, my first two  NX-12s came in also!
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: George Dougherty on January 15, 2014, 10:35:04 PM
My PMD arrived today! Looks great. Super solid construction. I didn't realize that the ground bussing would occur with jumpers on the back of the box, although I get that now with a re-read. Works great though - sturdy cable and sturdy jump terminals. Professional fit and finish. So far I would definitely recommend this - it doesn't seem like I could have build a product this robust myself.

PowerCon plugs arrived from parts express as well, so I started building.

The SJOOW I bought fits perfectly in the chuck, not to big and not to small, while the 12/3 barely squeezes into the conductor terminal.  Pretty difficult to get it all in there without loosing a thread of the 12g. Zero chance anything with bigger conductors would fit in without cutting the tip down. Excellent behavior from the jacket, coils extremely well right off the roll. Will pick up some Southwire SOOW very soon to make my feeders.

Unrelated, my first two  NX-12s came in also!
I run a light amount of solder into the leads on my AC and speaker cable so I can easily unscrew them and replace the connector in the field if need be.  Just enough to bind things together and keep it from becoming a frayed mess.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on January 15, 2014, 11:03:47 PM
I run a light amount of solder into the leads on my AC and speaker cable so I can easily unscrew them and replace the connector in the field if need be.  Just enough to bind things together and keep it from becoming a frayed mess.
This isn't a good idea, as it prevents the stranded end from conforming to the wire clamp.  You end up with a low-surface area connection that is going to be iffy after a little movement.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: George Dougherty on January 16, 2014, 01:45:23 AM
This isn't a good idea, as it prevents the stranded end from conforming to the wire clamp.  You end up with a low-surface area connection that is going to be iffy after a little movement.

With a light amount it seems to deform quite easily in the cup though it still holds together.  It seems no worse than using a solid core conductor.  Am I wrong?
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Nathan Vanderslice on January 16, 2014, 01:50:53 AM
This isn't a good idea, as it prevents the stranded end from conforming to the wire clamp.  You end up with a low-surface area connection that is going to be iffy after a little movement.
I have to agree with that! It's worse than using aluminum wire, and I believe (not sure) it would not be code. I'm no electrician, but the other part to this is that clamping it into connector could lead to bad connection, heat, worse connection when the solder melts, and possibly fire. I had a situation a few decades ago where I built a power distribution setup for the lights in an orchestra pit. I had done it as I had always been taught (using stranded wire) to wrap the wires around the screws and tighten them down. Then some "yahoo" foreign exchange student tried to fix a problem and ended up redoing I think the whole set up by cutting the bare wires to about the same length as the diameter of the screw head and tinning the bare wire so that it was like unstranded wire.  :( The teacher that I was working with at the time tried to tell me that I had done it wrong, and I told him that what the other person did was not to code in the US.

I have one question about all of this. In tying together the grounds from multiple outlets, doesn't it require that the all of the ground wires have to be rated for the sum total current capacity of the unit? That is to say that if you have 4 20 amp circuits, don't all of the ground wires have to be rated for a 80 amp circuit?
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on January 16, 2014, 07:12:34 AM
With a light amount it seems to deform quite easily in the cup though it still holds together.  It seems no worse than using a solid core conductor.  Am I wrong?
The clamps in Powercons, cord plugs, etc. are not intended for solid wire.

The trick to Powercon/Speakon connectors is to back the screw out a little before inserting the wire. They come with the clamp partly closed, which doesn't help for getting the wire in. With a little practice it isn't that hard. Once in a while a strand gets away, but that is easily trimmed off with a diagonal cutter or bent around so it can't short to another terminal.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on January 16, 2014, 07:35:12 AM
I have one question about all of this. In tying together the grounds from multiple outlets, doesn't it require that the all of the ground wires have to be rated for the sum total current capacity of the unit? That is to say that if you have 4 20 amp circuits, don't all of the ground wires have to be rated for a 80 amp circuit?
The ground wire needs to be capable of handling enough current to trip the breaker, which is 20A, not 80A. As each pair of current-conducting wires stays separate, There is no situation (other than if the receptacles you are using are fed by an illegally-large breaker) for there to be 80A on the ground wire.

There are a number of potential scenarios, but unless you are using cheaters, you actually have 80A worth of ground wires - one for each circuit. About the worst circumstance I can think of is if all your supply circuits are H-G reversed, but your receptacle testing procedure ensures you'll never plug into a H-G reversed receptacle. Right?  :)
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Kevin Graf on January 16, 2014, 09:33:55 AM
Solder-tinning a stranded wire for use under a screw terminal is a bad idea. With time and temperature changes the solder will cold-flow and allow the screw to loosen.  Also with a flexible wire, where the solder-tinning ends a hard spot will be created. With continued flexing the strands may break one at a time.

On another note, never attach a Safety Ground wire by solder alone.  Under ground fault conditions, the high current can create so much heat that the solder will melt.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Geoff Doane on January 16, 2014, 10:45:27 AM
With a light amount it seems to deform quite easily in the cup though it still holds together.  It seems no worse than using a solid core conductor.  Am I wrong?

After seeing what can happen with tinned AC leads, I'm happier to just deal with the slightly more tedious process of stuffing all those strands in the terminal.  So far, the only failures I've had with PowerCons have been the older latches, and the outer barrel can be replaced without doing anything to the wires.  Although you might as well tighten them up (with a Pozidrive No. 1 screwdriver) while you have it apart.

GTD
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Samuel Rees on January 16, 2014, 11:17:55 AM
The 12/3 does fit, it just requires some time and attention on each conductor.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Samuel Rees on January 22, 2014, 07:10:43 PM
Just keeping my power distribution journey archive updated! My O.A. Windsor PowerCon quads arrived, I'm super happy about it. The box feels excellent. As I mentioned on another thread they seem extremely rugged, professionally built boxes. Ken will definitely be getting more of my business!
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: George Dougherty on January 23, 2014, 12:17:17 AM
With a light amount it seems to deform quite easily in the cup though it still holds together.  It seems no worse than using a solid core conductor.  Am I wrong?

Thanks everyone for correcting my bad habits.  I'll have to go back and check my power cabling.

On a similar note, is it also a bad idea for speakons?
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Lyle Williams on January 23, 2014, 01:51:43 AM
I think the correct equivalent "hard end" for stranded power cables is a bootlace ferrule.  Google will find you some pictures.

There are no problems doing your solder thing with speakons.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Mark McFarlane on January 23, 2014, 03:53:12 AM
...
There are no problems doing your solder thing with speakons.

Perhaps no real safety problem, but the physical connection problem (surface area of contact) should persist.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Lyle Williams on January 23, 2014, 04:53:40 AM
The surface area of the contact will be plenty big enough.

Solder is banned under electrical codes to prevent people from building wiring that falls apart when hot - really they are trying to prevent people from having solder-dependent joints.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Nick Enright on January 23, 2014, 09:19:15 AM
Perhaps no real safety problem, but the physical connection problem (surface area of contact) should persist.

And they loosen up easily over time. There's a difference in the mechanics of the connection when the little metal tab gets pushed against the wire strands, when its a matrix of solder/copper, it's much stiffer and doesn't create the same sort of physical conditions in the joint.

Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on January 23, 2014, 09:25:43 AM
The surface area of the contact will be plenty big enough.

Solder is banned under electrical codes to prevent people from building wiring that falls apart when hot - really they are trying to prevent people from having solder-dependent joints.
The surface area will be big enough initially, but as was mentioned somewhere upthread, solder flows, and the joint will loosen.  Thou shalt not solder wire destined for clamp-type terminals. 

There's no upside to tinning - I have made hundreds of Speakon/Powercon/NEMA/whatever connections with stranded wire, and after about the first 3 plugs, got the hang of it with very few straggling strands. 
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 23, 2014, 10:14:00 AM
The surface area will be big enough initially, but as was mentioned somewhere upthread, solder flows, and the joint will loosen.  Thou shalt not solder wire destined for clamp-type terminals. 

There's no upside to tinning - I have made hundreds of Speakon/Powercon/NEMA/whatever connections with stranded wire, and after about the first 3 plugs, got the hang of it with very few straggling strands.

Tinning is just wrong.  Even when it works, it doesn't...
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Geoff Doane on January 23, 2014, 01:52:06 PM
Thanks everyone for correcting my bad habits.  I'll have to go back and check my power cabling.

On a similar note, is it also a bad idea for speakons?

Did you mean actually soldering the wire into the terminals in a Speakon?  We haven't had that debate here for a while, but some people swear by it.  Personally, I've always used the screw connections, and except for some first generation Speakons that came with cap screws that bottomed out before they applied enough pressure, I've had zero problems over the years.  I have seen some Speakons that someone else put together, and they got things hot enough to melt the plastic and misalign one of the pins.

OTOH, I've always sweat soldered the wires onto the NL4MP connectors, and those have held up fine too.

GTD
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Kevin Graf on January 23, 2014, 02:05:18 PM
If a Safety Ground terminal unsolder's it's self because of heat a bad situation just got worse!
Is a Speakon terminal unsolder's it's self a bad situation just got a little bit better.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Lyle Williams on January 23, 2014, 02:55:29 PM
Would I pull apart speakons and re-terminate them because the ends were tinned?  Gosh no. 

All my commercially made speakon cables have tinned ends.  They don't seem to loosen up.

Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 23, 2014, 08:27:08 PM
Would I pull apart speakons and re-terminate them because the ends were tinned?  Gosh no. 

All my commercially made speakon cables have tinned ends.  They don't seem to loosen up.

Give them time, they will.  Trust me, I'm a doctor... of something... ;)
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Nick Enright on January 24, 2014, 03:16:56 AM
Give them time, they will.  Trust me, I'm a doctor... of something... ;)
And they loosen up easily over time. There's a difference in the mechanics of the connection when the little metal tab gets pushed against the wire strands, when its a matrix of solder/copper, it's much stiffer and doesn't create the same sort of physical conditions in the joint.

I don't know if this is going to read correctly, but I'm a master metallurgist, and Tim's right. :)

Don't tin unless the connector spec calls for it, exactly how you should build up the connector is called out in very specific instructions on how to make it work best. You disregard these things at your own loss.

(an engineer) and soundguy by practice.

Nick
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Lyle Williams on January 24, 2014, 04:39:36 AM
I understand that clamped tinned wires are not best practice, and are prohibited in some environments.  I'm not sure they are actually banned in AS3000 here or the NEC in the states though.

From my reading, solder shows a 0.01% creep rate per day under 2.3MPa pressure.  That seems significant, but won't creep cause the joint pressure to drop and thus the creep rate to drop?

Clamped tinned wires are very common.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Nick Enright on January 24, 2014, 12:00:29 PM
I understand that clamped tinned wires are not best practice, and are prohibited in some environments.  I'm not sure they are actually banned in AS3000 here or the NEC in the states though.

From my reading, solder shows a 0.01% creep rate per day under 2.3MPa pressure.  That seems significant, but won't creep cause the joint pressure to drop and thus the creep rate to drop?

Clamped tinned wires are very common.

Once you loose pressure/tension in a threaded joint you have failure. Once the solder and copper have moved away from the terminal they start to arc, and go intermittent. Imagine that happening to a Macro-tech 5002vz driving a 2.67ohm load at full tilt... That's basically an arc welder.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: frank kayser on January 24, 2014, 12:06:47 PM
Once you loose pressure/tension in a threaded joint you have failure. Once the solder and copper have moved away from the terminal they start to arc, and go intermittent. Imagine that happening to a Macro-tech 5002vz driving a 2.67ohm load at full tilt... That's basically an arc welder.

Don't forget now there's a path for oxidation to creep in.  As I understand a crimped connection, it is supposed to be tight enough to be basically air-tight - and therefore no oxidation.

Is a screw terminal that tight?
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Lyle Williams on January 24, 2014, 01:43:50 PM
I understand the theoretical failure modes, and why tinned and clamped is not best practice.  It isn't something I do personally - I use ferrules or bare strands.

I'm just trying to get some idea of the expected increase in failures due to this problem.  Tinned clamped wires are common.  Tinned crimped wires are common.  We don't seem to be swamped with failures.
Title: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Samuel Rees on January 24, 2014, 01:58:03 PM
I have not understood why anyone here wants to tin 12-14/3 in PowerCon. They fit fine, clamp down fine, stay down fine... What's the problem here? Why is tinning such an issue for discussion on a non-solder field serviceable connector? Make a thread about it if there is a discussion to be had... seems to me like there isn't though.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Rob Spence on January 24, 2014, 07:17:52 PM
  Tinned clamped wires are common.  Tinned crimped wires are common.  We don't seem to be swamped with failures.

I suspect failures are much more common than you suspect but the symptoms are diagnosed as something else. And, if it ain't sparking, it might not get reported at all.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Lyle Williams on January 24, 2014, 08:51:25 PM
Ok.  It's not something I do, but I see it in commercial speaker cables I have.  Just trying to work out if I need to go and reterminate them.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 24, 2014, 11:20:38 PM
Ok.  It's not something I do, but I see it in commercial speaker cables I have.  Just trying to work out if I need to go and reterminate them.

On hand-built NL cables I suspect the wire is stripped and tinned in a solder pot to make them easier & faster to assemble.

I think you should just tighten them up once a year, and when something is intermittent consider these terminations as possible suspects.
Title: Re: My build of a "poormans" PowerCON Distro
Post by: Tim Padrick on January 26, 2014, 09:40:11 PM
Hammond makes very nice rack enclosures.

I'd use crimped and soldered fastons if I could find some big enough to hold even a single 12GA, let alone a pair.