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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Sam Costa on January 08, 2014, 12:13:34 PM
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Hey guys,
I know I saw something like this quite sometime ago regarding motorized faders that wouldn't move because they jumped off track, or the belt that moves the fader "de-railed" itself and no longer moves the fader.
Specifically this happened on a X32 of mine and it's not under warranty. I'm guessing it couldn't be that difficult to remove the side caps, remove a few screws and attempt to repair it myself by placing the belt back on track.. If any of you have experience in performing this task would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
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Hey guys,
I know I saw something like this quite sometime ago regarding motorized faders that wouldn't move because they jumped off track, or the belt that moves the fader "de-railed" itself and no longer moves the fader.
Specifically this happened on a X32 of mine and it's not under warranty. I'm guessing it couldn't be that difficult to remove the side caps, remove a few screws and attempt to repair it myself by placing the belt back on track.. If any of you have experience in performing this task would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
Hi Sam-
Call the Behringer "care" facility in Nevada and see if you can order a couple of faders and have a local tech replace the defective one.
I think someone fixed a jumped belt (or Joe from Berry discussed it) over on Soundforums dot net.
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I have seen a few posts around about jumped belts. It should be straightforward to put it back on, but if you are taking it apart you might as well look into replacing the belt with a new one.
Contact Behringer service about availability or repair parts. Since they make their own motor-faders, even replacing a whole fader should not break the bank, but hopefully they will give you good support. If not the resale price for used X32 will reflect uncertainty about this aspect, when they start dropping belts. Being out of warranty is a minor detail, if the new Behringer is serious they will support customers with inexpensive repair parts.
Since they designed their own motor-fader. Reliability of this was one of the major unknowns about this mixer.
JR
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Hi Sam-
Call the Behringer "care" facility in Nevada and see if you can order a couple of faders and have a local tech replace the defective one.
I think someone fixed a jumped belt (or Joe from Berry discussed it) over on Soundforums dot net.
It probably doesn't need replacement, a large number of early units (including ours, we received one of the first units shipped to Canada) have an issue with faders coming off the belt, in our case someone had their hand on DCA 6 fader and changed the fader bank causing the belt to fall off.
Our repair tech was able to fix the fader, as well as all the faders on the board per Behringer's instructions. We were covered under warranty, I'd call someone at Music Group and see if they would help you it since it is an acknowledged issue with early units.
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It probably doesn't need replacement, a large number of early units (including ours, we received one of the first units shipped to Canada) have an issue with faders coming off the belt, in our case someone had their hand on DCA 6 fader and changed the fader bank causing the belt to fall off.
Our repair tech was able to fix the fader, as well as all the faders on the board per Behringer's instructions. We were covered under warranty, I'd call someone at Music Group and see if they would help you it since it is an acknowledged issue with early units.
Thanks for the responses gentleman. Looking at it, it doesn't seem all that complicated especially with the way it's designed. I'll try giving Music Group a call and see if they can forward me the repair instructions.
I appreciate all the help!
-Sam
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in our case someone had their hand on DCA 6 fader and changed the fader bank causing the belt to fall off.
The first time I pressed send on faders on an X32, I had my other hand in the way and a fader hit my hand. It didn't cause any damage but made me wonder if there is any sort of collision detection, and if so, how does it recover?
Any ideas?
Steve.
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The first time I pressed send on faders on an X32, I had my other hand in the way and a fader hit my hand. It didn't cause any damage but made me wonder if there is any sort of collision detection, and if so, how does it recover?
Any ideas?
Steve.
Steve,
I've had my hand in the way on several occasions (fat fingers I guess) lol, and I'm yet to have the belt jump off the gear because of that. Mine happened one day in the middle of a sound check and I'm certain it must have already been loose. From what I understand there are 2 screws above and below the small pulley/gear that controls the belt, lossen those up, move the pulley/gear up a bit to tighten the slack on the belt once it's placed on the track, tighten them up and should be back to normal.
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The first time I pressed send on faders on an X32, I had my other hand in the way and a fader hit my hand. It didn't cause any damage but made me wonder if there is any sort of collision detection, and if so, how does it recover?
Any ideas?
Steve.
More expensive consoles have touch sensitive faders, in particular the SC48 won't move a fader if you have your hand on it, then when you remove your hand the fader will snap to position.
I'm not aware of any budget digital consoles with this feature.
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More expensive consoles have touch sensitive faders, in particular the SC48 won't move a fader if you have your hand on it, then when you remove your hand the fader will snap to position.
I'm not aware of any budget digital consoles with this feature.
Correct, X32 and several others are NOT touch sensitive. Controlled by pulley/gear and belt.
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Correct, X32 and several others are NOT touch sensitive. Controlled by pulley/gear and belt.
Well, contacted the Music Group and unfortunately the rep I got on the phone said they dont have any pdf or instruction sheets on how to repair of the faders... :O/
Looks like I'm going in blind! :)
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Well you can take pictures....
and tell how to do it after you're finished. :-)
JR
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Well, contacted the Music Group and unfortunately the rep I got on the phone said they dont have any pdf or instruction sheets on how to repair of the faders... :O/
Looks like I'm going in blind! :)
The laymen's explanation that I got was your line up the sprocket/pulley that drive the belt, and use some type of adhesive to keep them from sliding on the shaft.
Pics would be awesome, won't be long before a large number of X32s are no longer under warranty.
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The laymen's explanation that I got was your line up the sprocket/pulley that drive the belt, and use some type of adhesive to keep them from sliding on the shaft.
Pics would be awesome, won't be long before a large number of X32s are no longer under warranty.
The X32 Rack now comes with a life time warranty on all faders ;)
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The X32 Rack now comes with a life time warranty on all faders ;)
Yeah, I'll definitely take pictures during the R&R and possibly a how-to video for others. I'm sure it would come in handy at some point for someone. ;)
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What you need is : Service Directive_BEHRINGER X32 Fader.pdf
Which goes into the matter in minute detail
(PDF attachments are not permissable here and even if they were I wouldn't want Uli's fleet of black (imatation) helicopters chasing me).
M
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What you need is : Service Directive_BEHRINGER X32 Fader.pdf
Which goes into the matter in minute detail
(PDF attachments are not permissable here and even if they were I wouldn't want Uli's fleet of black (imatation) helicopters chasing me).
M
Perhaps it's a secret document since their own service(?) rep didn't know about it. Actually it happens sometimes with large companies that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.
JR
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You can find the pdf here. A good look at just how cheaply made the faders are.
http://www.eastcoastpc.plus.com/Behringer_X32_fader.pdf
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That last picture showing the belt slipped under the gear surprises me. It wouldn't take much intelligence to design a gear with a flange on both sides to stop that happening.
Steve.
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That last picture showing the belt slipped under the gear surprises me. It wouldn't take much intelligence to design a gear with a flange on both sides to stop that happening.
Steve.
While we can claim intelligence from the benefit of hindsight, this may not be so simple. Experience from building sh__ loads of these will indicate to them how to refine the design if there are any obvious flaws.
JR
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That last picture showing the belt slipped under the gear surprises me. It wouldn't take much intelligence to design a gear with a flange on both sides to stop that happening.
Steve.
While we can claim intelligence from the benefit of hindsight, this may not be so simple. Experience from building sh__ loads of these will indicate to them how to refine the design if there are any obvious flaws.
JR
Having the belt where it somewhat easily comes off of the gear may be, by design, to prevent worse damage if the fader "interrupted" while moving. Better that the belt comes off rather than breaking or striping out.
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Having the belt where it somewhat easily comes off of the gear may be, by design, to prevent worse damage if the fader "interrupted" while moving. Better that the belt comes off rather than breaking or striping out.
Alternately you could probably just let the motor stall if movement is blocked. Dropping the belt, is a failure to the end user. Being easy to fix is good, but it isn't that easy to fix.
Of course I am uncomfortable second guessing the design from photo's and such distance.
JR
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Being easy to fix is good, but it isn't that easy to fix.
Especially in the field, at showtime.
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Alternately you could probably just let the motor stall if movement is blocked. Dropping the belt, is a failure to the end user. Being easy to fix is good, but it isn't that easy to fix.
Of course I am uncomfortable second guessing the design from photo's and such distance.
JR
If my recollection of my college motor theory is correct, you could monitor the current being drawn by the motor and treat an unexpected rise in current as the fader being blocked. But again, that might not line up with the price point.
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If my recollection of my college motor theory is correct, you could monitor the current being drawn by the motor and treat an unexpected rise in current as the fader being blocked. But again, that might not line up with the price point.
Indeed, we seem to forget how much of a breakthrough this product is for this feature content at this price point. Most other console companies were unwilling to attempt rolling their own motorized fader (IMO not trivial). If this is the extent of their problems they did well.
They can add more bells and whistles to motor faders in more expensive SKUs.
JR
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You can find the pdf here. A good look at just how cheaply made the faders are.
http://www.eastcoastpc.plus.com/Behringer_X32_fader.pdf
I've eyeballed these critters fairly close and find the standard of manufacture no better or worse than the Taiwan Alpha motor faders used the SI Expression and similar Soundcraft models. You have to spend a LOT more money to move to the next level (K series, P&G etc). One thing I do notice is that the ballistics of the X32 fader movement is a bit more brutal than the Soundcraft, but that's just software.
M
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I've eyeballed these critters fairly close and find the standard of manufacture no better or worse than the Taiwan Alpha motor faders used the SI Expression and similar Soundcraft models. You have to spend a LOT more money to move to the next level (K series, P&G etc). One thing I do notice is that the ballistics of the X32 fader movement is a bit more brutal than the Soundcraft, but that's just software.
M
They definitely "snap to attention" pretty rapidly when you switch layers. :)
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I've eyeballed these critters fairly close and find the standard of manufacture no better or worse than the Taiwan Alpha motor faders used the SI Expression and similar Soundcraft models. You have to spend a LOT more money to move to the next level (K series, P&G etc). One thing I do notice is that the ballistics of the X32 fader movement is a bit more brutal than the Soundcraft, but that's just software.
M
So the X32 would be better for using the motorized faders to kick paper footballs into the crowd during moments of boredom?
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So the X32 would be better for using the motorized faders to kick paper footballs into the crowd during moments of boredom?
You really shouldn't give me ideas like that... ;D One of the churches I help at has an x32 in one of those(horrible) loft sound booths 15+ feet above the main floor...... ::) Lets see... Fader 8 all the way up on layer A and all the way down on layer B; switch to layer B, place football, and switch to layer A. Or maybe 16 footballs all at once. :)
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So the X32 would be better for using the motorized faders to kick paper footballs into the crowd during moments of boredom?
Dammit - missed opportunity!. Had an Expression in the workshop last week for repair, and own an X32 - could have done a ping pong ball launch test but it just didn't occur to me at the time.
M
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So the X32 would be better for using the motorized faders to kick paper footballs into the crowd during moments of boredom?
It's time like this that I wish this forum had a like button. 8)
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Making the pulley with one flange allows them to use a simple two part mold. The mold costs less and the parts are made faster then if it had two flanges. It isn't good design but it does save money.
(I am a mechanical designer, I use timing belts often, and I have designed plastic parts and there molds. I have never seen this done.)
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Having been an experimental machinist/model maker for about 20 years in my previous life I'll state for a fact that you could certainly produce the same part with two flanges using a 2 piece mold. Poor design is the only answer here. If I owned an X32 I would be mighty tempted to remove every sprocket and either Loctite it back on, or put a 2-56 set screw in every one of them.
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Bob is right. It is common practice to have a flange both sides on drive belts.
(http://www.nonstopsystems.com/radio/antenna-magloop-plastic-pulley.jpg)
The Behringer design appears to use the surface of whatever is below the gear to retain the belt. This will probably work 99.99% of the time but if the gear is only a press fit on the shaft, a small quantity are going to move upwards at some point and cause a problem.
Steve.
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I am not keen on second guessing their design. It seems a liquid adhesive could secure the pulley to the motor shaft. If they need to tool a new pulley they can probably afford to do that now.
They seem to have had pretty good success so far.
JR
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Maybe John, but if you notice that the sprocket Steve has shown has a hub and both flanges. The hub is the ideal spot for a set screw which eliminates the movement on the shaft while the flanges retain the belt. A quick look at the Behringer design and it's apparent that height is a factor. The motor shaft isn't long enough to protrude through a redesigned sprocket with a hub and two flanges, and height above the sprocket may be constrictive.
The other problem is this. The design and mold process has probably resulted in a slight taper of the sprocket surface, maybe as little as .001 - .002 to allow for quick removal from the mold. That taper will eventually result in the belt forcing the sprocket up allowing the belt to slip underneath as in the example. It may be that Behringer's design could be modified by placing a set screw as I mentioned above, in the low point between the sprockets teeth where it will not effect movement or create excessive wear on the belt.
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Maybe John, but if you notice that the sprocket Steve has shown has a hub and both flanges. The hub is the ideal spot for a set screw which eliminates the movement on the shaft while the flanges retain the belt. A quick look at the Behringer design and it's apparent that height is a factor. The motor shaft isn't long enough to protrude through a redesigned sprocket with a hub and two flanges, and height above the sprocket may be constrictive.
If the clearance above is that tight, that should keep the sprocket down. ;D
The other problem is this. The design and mold process has probably resulted in a slight taper of the sprocket surface, maybe as little as .001 - .002 to allow for quick removal from the mold. That taper will eventually result in the belt forcing the sprocket up allowing the belt to slip underneath as in the example. It may be that Behringer's design could be modified by placing a set screw as I mentioned above, in the low point between the sprockets teeth where it will not effect movement or create excessive wear on the belt.
Using set screws, in a mass production environment, on a high volume product is undesirable added labor (and even the cost of the screw, not to mention tapping the hole the set screw screws into, etc). Some hard setting adhesive seems appropriate if this is a real problem.
I am surely repeating myself but this is a deep value product (good for the money).
JR
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I am surely repeating myself but this is a deep value product (good for the money).
Despite some armchair redesigning with the benefit of hindsight, I agree with you. Behringer are to be congratulated on the X32 which is really quite an achievement.
The problem of the belt slipping off the pulley is probably very rare and for all we know, they might have already addressed this problem themselves.
Steve.
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With 3d printers commonplace now, I'm sure someone could create a new pully if it becomes a problem. It would be an interesting experiment.
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Having been an experimental machinist/model maker for about 20 years in my previous life I'll state for a fact that you could certainly produce the same part with two flanges using a 2 piece mold.
I don't see how this could be done. I could see it with a flanged pulley without teeth but not for a timing belt pulley.
To be clear. I agree, timing belt pulleys should and usually do have two flanges, and I think they should. I am only saying that the mold is a bit simpler if you cheat and make it with one flange. Not a good design.
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I continue to be impressed with the depth of experience in this forum. I myself have only designed one injection molded part (the plastic case for my current product), so I have a rudimentary, but not expert understanding of draft angles, and sundry IM design rules.
Uli needs to ask you guys how to do it next time. :-)
JR
[edit] are any of you guys experts about linker scripts for my embedded DSP debugging environment? I am having trouble with variable visibility, and suspect it is related to the linker. [/edit]
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I don't see how this could be done. I could see it with a flanged pulley without teeth but not for a timing belt pulley.
To be clear. I agree, timing belt pulleys should and usually do have two flanges, and I think they should. I am only saying that the mold is a bit simpler if you cheat and make it with one flange. Not a good design.
Looking at the pics of the fader gear, in normal use, gravity might help a little to keep the belt near the flange but what struck me was that with only the one flange, it was then possible to install the belt without slack adjusters. With two flanges, some force would be needed (or belt stretching) to install it.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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Looking at the pics of the fader gear, in normal use, gravity might help a little to keep the belt near the flange but what struck me was that with only the one flange, it was then possible to install the belt without slack adjusters. With two flanges, some force would be needed (or belt stretching) to install it.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Often the non driving pulley has no flanges, and that appears to be the case here. The belt would be placed over the flanged pulley first, and then over the pulley at the other end
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Anyway you guys, the design is of course not flangeless, it is simply a two part design with a single flange pulley sitting on top of a washer that performs the function of the second flange. This is not an uncommon design. The forces working on the pulley (or the variation in product consistency or raw material consistency) was obviously underestimated to some extent, thus there has been some instances of the pulley slipping off the axle. The pulley has been secured with a spot of glue/locktite for a long time now, and applying it to every pulley is as far as I know part of the procedure when a board is in for repair.
Set screws, as JR comments, comes with their own set of issues, they are extra work, and not least they come loose and become more of a problem than a solution unless the set screw is properly secured, which of course is more work again.
Torque/current/resistance-sensing is of course part of a lot of chips and circuitry for driving small motors. On a mixer you would want to use that both for protection and for touch sensing (for going to automation recording when you don't have capacitive touch sensing for instance). I have no idea what the motor driving circuit looks like, and if there are chips with torque sensing, and if the necessary pins on these chips are connected and available for future firmware updates.
While some of you are too prejudiced to see clearly, I doubt if the Behringer designers are raving idiots, and a lot of testing has gone into these faders. There have been a number of loose pulleys ( out of more than a million), but it doesn't seem to be a dramatic failure and the fix is relatively quick and easy if one is willing to risk voiding the warranty.
(Being able to use the equipment to me is more important than preserving warranty, I bought it to use it, not to drool over the warranty)
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How many sound guys does it take to design a pulley? :-)
JR
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Anyway you guys, the design is of course not flangeless, it is simply a two part design with a single flange pulley sitting on top of a washer that performs the function of the second flange.
Thank you for the information. I could not see a lower flange and the text said "13. As you can see the belt has slipped under the gear" So I assumed based on what I saw and read that there was no flange on the under side of the pulley. I am glad to hear that I was wrong.
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Unrelated but interesting Here is a video of a fader for the Midas Pro 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqCplmX3Rkw That mixer uses a drive pulley with one flange.
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Thank you for the information. I could not see a lower flange and the text said "13. As you can see the belt has slipped under the gear" So I assumed based on what I saw and read that there was no flange on the under side of the pulley. I am glad to hear that I was wrong.
There is no flange as such, the washer, from what I can faintly remember from a picture or video I saw a long time ago, simply fills the gap, and the gap opens up and allows the belt to potentially drop off when the pulley travels too far up the axle.
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Correct, a washer is not as flange. If the sprocket had an upper and lower flange the belt would ride with the sprocket up or down eliminating ANY possibility of the belt coming off due to up and down movement on the shaft. That's not to say there might be another reason for belt failure.
Set screws are a method commonly used, as is Loctite or other adhesives. Either method might cost almost a nickel per fader to implement.
And no Per, I am not prejudiced or due I consider the Behringer engineers to be raving idiots. I'm sure they thought a good press fit would suffice, but unfortunately that is not the case. The problem, which is much more common than you care to believe, requires a future redesign or recommended fix from Behringer, then it will be problem solved and time to move on.
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Correct, a washer is not as flange. If the sprocket had an upper and lower flange the belt would ride with the sprocket up or down eliminating ANY possibility of the belt coming off due to up and down movement on the shaft.
Second guessing this from a far distance, if a two flanged pulley rides up the motor shaft, the belt will interfere with the bottom flange on the pulley, and if it binds that could throw the belt. The lack of a bottom flange "might" reduce alignment related belt friction, while it will still interfere with the top flange of the lower pulley.
That's not to say there might be another reason for belt failure.
Belts are like tires on a car, they are expected to wear out given enough time and use. There is a reason "all" moving faders have less than lifetime warranties.
Set screws are a method commonly used, as is Loctite or other adhesives. Either method might cost almost a nickel per fader to implement.
I would not expect there to be anything close to cost parity. A set screw first requires a drilled hole, then tapping that hole, then inserting the screw, then finally tightening in place (not to mention set screws and plastic pulleys don't really mix (IMO).
A press fit, with adhesive for insurance strikes me as a practical, and cost effective approach. It's hard to imagine anything requiring a human touch for only $0.05, while application of adhesives can be more easily automated.
And no Per, I am not prejudiced or due I consider the Behringer engineers to be raving idiots. I'm sure they thought a good press fit would suffice, but unfortunately that is not the case. The problem, which is much more common than you care to believe, requires a future redesign or recommended fix from Behringer, then it will be problem solved and time to move on.
I am prejudiced by personal experience and Behringer's past behavior. I try not to allow that to interfere with current engineering discussions.
JR
PS: Trying to discredit Bob's observations as being prejudiced reminds me of the current political climate in the US. :o Bob has his own personal life experience set, while IMO model shop work is a long way from factory floor high volume production. I've been involved in my share of both. I even worked in a real machine shop as a kid (summer jobs).
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And no Per, I am not prejudiced or due I consider the Behringer engineers to be raving idiots.
Bob, I have finally had it and decided to say what's on my mind...You saying that you're not prejudiced against Behringer and the X32 in particular is like me saying I love to eat cooked strained spinach...it simply isn't true. I guarantee you that I don't like to eat cooked strained spinach and that you can't stand the fact that Behringer has a hit on it's hands. So my free advice is why don't you get off the 'let's bash Behringer bandwagon' until you have used an X32 live for say 6 months. I hated Behringer until they came out with the X32. I didn't even want to look at buying one until one of the people that works for me finally convinced me to give them a chance. It took him 6 months. Bang for the buck the X32 is better than anything that I have personally worked period. I own several other digital mixers and have access through Mason Sound, to even more, and I can tell you from my personal experience I use the X32 over the M7CL, LS9 and SC48 more times then not. If I have a National that requires the M7CL, SC48 or CL5 then I will bring them out. Otherwise I use the X32, because it's smaller, does what I need it to do and the iPad App is amazing.
You can write all of this off as me being a 'Newbie' around here. You should know however, I've been doing this since 1977 when I started with a Peavey MC12 non powered mixer and a Peavey CS400. So why don't you do everyone a favor and lay-off until you have actually used the X32 for 6 months or so and know what you are talking about when it comes to that particular piece of equipment. You don't seem me complaining about equipment that I haven't used...that could be a good lesson for you to take home from a 'Newbie'.
Sorry about getting off topic about the faders...there have not been nearly as many problems with them as Bob would like to have you believe. Could the design be improved...sure...could the design of a Mercedes SLS-Class Coupe be improved...sure it can. Am I comparing Behringer to Mercedes...not a chance. I would rather mix on the Behringer and drive the Mercedes...they were designed for two different functions.
Oh, and I still hate cooked, strained spinach.
Bill
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Bob, I have finally had it and decided to say what's on my mind...You saying that you're not prejudiced against Behringer and the X32 in particular is like me saying I love to eat cooked strained spinach...it simply isn't true. I guarantee you that I don't like to eat cooked strained spinach and that you can't stand the fact that Behringer has a hit on it's hands. So my free advice is why don't you get off the 'let's bash Behringer bandwagon' until you have used an X32 live for say 6 months. I hated Behringer until they came out with the X32. I didn't even want to look at buying one until one of the people that works for me finally convinced me to give them a chance. It took him 6 months. Bang for the buck the X32 is better than anything that I have personally worked period. I own several other digital mixers and have access through Mason Sound, to even more, and I can tell you from my personal experience I use the X32 over the M7CL, LS9 and SC48 more times then not. If I have a National that requires the M7CL, SC48 or CL5 then I will bring them out. Otherwise I use the X32, because it's smaller, does what I need it to do and the iPad App is amazing.
You can write all of this off as me being a 'Newbie' around here. You should know however, I've been doing this since 1977 when I started with a Peavey MC12 non powered mixer and a Peavey CS400. So why don't you do everyone a favor and lay-off until you have actually used the X32 for 6 months or so and know what you are talking about when it comes to that particular piece of equipment. You don't seem me complaining about equipment that I haven't used...that could be a good lesson for you to take home from a 'Newbie'.
Sorry about getting off topic about the faders...there have not been nearly as many problems with them as Bob would like to have you believe. Could the design be improved...sure...could the design of a Mercedes SLS-Class Coupe be improved...sure it can. Am I comparing Behringer to Mercedes...not a chance. I would rather mix on the Behringer and drive the Mercedes...they were designed for two different functions.
Oh, and I still hate cooked, strained spinach.
Bill
It is also human nature to be defensive and introspective about personal purchase decisions. Premium product merchandizers play on this insecurity to sell more expensive brands.
Bob, has clearly stated his thought process in deciding to buy a more expensive digital mixer. What makes him comfortable is not expected to be the same as everybody else.
It is not very productive to argue about what other people on the internet think, when we often don't have a firm grasp on what and why we think what we do.
Nobody disputes the remarkable value X32 delivers. Not even Bob (i think he thinks I think). 8)
JR
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Oh, and I still hate cooked, strained spinach.
Bill
Well then, I guess I'll bid on the Ohio Spinach Festival... ;)
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It is also human nature to be defensive and introspective about personal purchase decisions. Premium product merchandizers play on this insecurity to sell more expensive brands.
Bob, has clearly stated his thought process in deciding to buy a more expensive digital mixer. What makes him comfortable is not expected to be the same as everybody else. ...
JR
John, I don't begrudge anyone buying what they want. I make my purchases like everyone else...what will my client accept and does it meet my needs. I agree we don't need to do any bashing, and that is the problem I have with Bob vs Behringer...it is all that he does. All I am saying is that if you are going to complain about a desk, you might want to spend a little bit of time working on that desk first.
OK, I am done now.
Thanks
Bill
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Well then, I guess I'll bid on the Ohio Spinach Festival... ;)
Good luck with that one Tim. It's a long way from Kansas to Ohio...I'll go back down to Tampa and do a beach festival instead.
Bill
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John, I don't begrudge anyone buying what they want. I make my purchases like everyone else...what will my client accept and does it meet my needs. I agree we don't need to do any bashing, and that is the problem I have with Bob vs Behringer...it is all that he does. All I am saying is that if you are going to complain about a desk, you might want to spend a little bit of time working on that desk first.
OK, I am done now.
Thanks
Bill
You know what they say about opinions. Bob is a long time member here who does a lot more than express his widely felt opinions about Behringer. Perhaps some of here do not object to his views because we agree with him, in part if not in full.
I repeat, is is not productive to argue about what people think on the WWW.
You are entitled to your opinions too. I will refrain from characterizing them pejoratively as some might.
We all value our own opinions very highly. That is normal. Expecting everybody to think like we do, can be disappointing (it is for me). Trying to make other people think like we do is politics. ;D ;D
JR
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Bill,
I've said plenty of times that I thought the X32 was a decent product, so perhaps you've not read those post. The board is a great board with a great feature set and a product home run for Uli and crew.
I have also stated in the past that I had come very close to purchasing an X32, had put a number of hours on an X32 while comparing entry level boards. Unlike many people I didn't rush to the Behringer band wagon, even after noting that the board was many steps above anything available at the time. I had other choices I could have made well above the cost of an X32, but held off continuing to us my APB for the purpose intended until more players entered the field. Waiting also confirmed my reasons for not buying Behringer, and those reasons still stand. To many "minor" problems out of the box, one service center, poor reputation.
The fader problem shows due to poor design based on minimum cost, a problem that could show up in any board using a similar design or cheap low quality parts. I didn't always work at the top of the trade as a machinist, and there were plenty of years working as an apprentice, in job shops, as a mold maker, experimental machinist and then model maker for Uncle Sam. That was an almost 20 journey prior to changing careers, and my remarks, even if not supported by other people, are backed with hands on experience and many years of education.
And Bill, I don't care how many posts you have. It's not relevant to the discussion pertaining to faders. what is relevant is each persons given right to choose what they feel is the best solution for the task at hand. You chose the X32, I went with Soundcraft. And not owning a specific piece of hardware does not make someone unqualified in it's use or capabilities. Also Bill, please try harder to not be one of those people who bought a product and constantly feels the need to defend the purchase simply because everyone you meet doesn't share the same opinion. Pull your head out Bill, search the web for the problem, and you'll find there are plenty of people with the problem, sharing comments, and publishing a "fix". IGGY for you, have a good life.
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We could look at any piece of equipment and come up with ways to improve it. Even top of the range equipment is built down to a price.
If something was built with absolutely best manufacturing practice and highest quality components and materials, not many people would be able to afford it.
Steve.
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Bill,
I've said plenty of times that I thought the X32 was a decent product, so perhaps you've not read those post. The board is a great board with a great feature set and a product home run for Uli and crew.
I have also stated in the past that I had come very close to purchasing an X32, had put a number of hours on an X32 while comparing entry level boards. Unlike many people I didn't rush to the Behringer band wagon, even after noting that the board was many steps above anything available at the time. I had other choices I could have made well above the cost of an X32, but held off continuing to us my APB for the purpose intended until more players entered the field. Waiting also confirmed my reasons for not buying Behringer, and those reasons still stand. To many "minor" problems out of the box, one service center, poor reputation.
The fader problem shows due to poor design based on minimum cost, a problem that could show up in any board using a similar design or cheap low quality parts. I didn't always work at the top of the trade as a machinist, and there were plenty of years working as an apprentice, in job shops, as a mold maker, experimental machinist and then model maker for Uncle Sam. That was an almost 20 journey prior to changing careers, and my remarks, even if not supported by other people, are backed with hands on experience and many years of education.
And Bill, I don't care how many posts you have. It's not relevant to the discussion pertaining to faders. what is relevant is each persons given right to choose what they feel is the best solution for the task at hand. You chose the X32, I went with Soundcraft. And not owning a specific piece of hardware does not make someone unqualified in it's use or capabilities. Also Bill, please try harder to not be one of those people who bought a product and constantly feels the need to defend the purchase simply because everyone you meet doesn't share the same opinion. Pull your head out Bill, search the web for the problem, and you'll find there are plenty of people with the problem, sharing comments, and publishing a "fix". IGGY for you, have a good life.
Bob, I also went Yamaha and Avid for digital and have decades of experience on large frame Yamaha, Midas and Soundcraft. We can agree to disagree, because everyones opinion, right wrong indifferent, has some value. As for where my head is, it's just fine, maybe you should check to see where your is. If you wish to continue this discussion, as JR pointed out, feel free to send me a personal email.
Bill
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Well, we can agree on two things Bill. You have a great web site and seem to be using some first class hardware, and you need to loose some weight. ;)
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Well, we can agree on two things Bill. You have a great web site and seem to be using some first class hardware, and you need to loose some weight. ;)
Bob, I think that you have found two things that we can agree on...definitely the later. :)
Bill
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Bob, I think that you have found two things that we can agree on...definitely the later. :)
Bill
FWIW it's worth, re-aligning the fader and using a dab of adhesive is the repair method that Behringer has instructed repair facilities to use.
I'm not sure about the situation in the US, but we have a repair depot about 1.5 hours away that is authorised to do Behringer warranty work, luckily enough they are also authorised to do warranty work on a large number of brands we use, and anything non warranty related goes to them anyways because they do good work. I'm not so sure that the statements regarding "one service center, poor reputation" are 100% accurate.
I really don't have a horse in the race, I'm an X32 User but I'm also currently saving for an SI Expression 1. Different board, different job.
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FWIW it's worth, re-aligning the fader and using a dab of adhesive is the repair method that Behringer has instructed repair facilities to use.
I'm not sure about the situation in the US, but we have a repair depot about 1.5 hours away that is authorised to do Behringer warranty work, luckily enough they are also authorised to do warranty work on a large number of brands we use, and anything non warranty related goes to them anyways because they do good work. I'm not so sure that the statements regarding "one service center, poor reputation" are 100% accurate.
I really don't have a horse in the race, I'm an X32 User but I'm also currently saving for an SI Expression 1. Different board, different job.
Behringer has different distributors in each country and those distributors are generally responsible for service in their respective countries. In the US AFAIK there is one service center in Las Vegas.
The new improved Behringer promised better product support and only time will tell..How that works in practice.
So far they have been pretty active on forums to grease the squeaky wheels.
I do not expect a deep value product to provide big ticket support, the world just does not work that way.
JR
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I am not prejudiced or due I consider the Behringer engineers to be raving idiots. I'm sure they thought a good press fit would suffice, but unfortunately that is not the case. The problem, which is much more common than you care to believe, requires a future redesign or recommended fix from Behringer, then it will be problem solved and time to move on.
Uli, being the ultimate pragmatist, will not lose any winks over a minor issue such as this...especially considering the release of the rack-mount, surface-less models they've released.
Just as Tim McCulloch notes the number of young BE's coming through his area who have never mixed on an analog console, in another few years there will be a whole crop of folks who have never mixed on a physical surface with faders and knobs. Their experience will be with pads and "virtual surfaces" utilizing laser projection on any suitably sized flat surface.
They're thinking forward, not sideways or backwards.
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And no Per, I am not prejudiced or due I consider the Behringer engineers to be raving idiots. I'm sure they thought a good press fit would suffice, but unfortunately that is not the case. The problem, which is much more common than you care to believe, requires a future redesign or recommended fix from Behringer, then it will be problem solved and time to move on.
Bob, I respect your opinion because you have been around for a long time and have skills and experience I could only wish for, but I sometimes get the impression that you are very quick to draw less than favourable conclusions about this particular product, including making reference the multitude of problems reported on the various internet forums. As somone who have owned the X32 since it came out, reading about other people's problems, sometimes helping them out with whatever little insight I can provide, I have long since come to the conclusion that most problems people encounter, including so-called "faults" are down to a lot of users simply lacking the experience and knowledge to operate any but the simplest gear without problems. This is in stark contrast to the majority of users of most other digital desks.
<snip>A good look at just how cheaply made the faders are.
I think this sort of hints towards prejudice on your part, but I might be wrong. The finish and simplicity of internal parts definitely reflects the philosophy of a product, but "cheap" and "cost efficient" isn't always the same thing.
<snip>It wouldn't take much intelligence to design a gear with a flange on both sides to stop that happening.
Thus my raving idiots comment.
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Uli, being the ultimate pragmatist, will not lose any winks over a minor issue such as this...
Not so sure, the fader problem could potentially cost a fortune in shipping cost and man-hours if the number of glueless units is substancial and the problem increases exponentially with time untill the warranty expires.
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Just as Tim McCulloch notes the number of young BE's coming through his area who have never mixed on an analog console, in another few years there will be a whole crop of folks who have never mixed on a physical surface with faders and knobs. Their experience will be with pads and "virtual surfaces" utilizing laser projection on any suitably sized flat surface.
And therein lies the Digital Crystal Ball's pixelated images of something from Yamaha, arrival date unknown.
Other manufacturers will not be idle. I expect NAMM to be interesting.
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Nam was very interesting.
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Nam was very interesting.
Never mind...
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Never mind...
Well, I finally had a chance to tackle the repair job myself and it was very simple. No manual, no diagram or spec page, just a Phillips screw driver, tweezers, and a whole lotta guts! Lol
Started by removing the plastic side panels, kept all the screws separated and took pics along the way so in the event of needing to recall it was a click away.
After removing all the side, back-upper, front-under screws it popped right up. I placed a small wood block that was about 12" in length to hold the top of the console while I removed the silver machined screws that held the section (mix buss) that I wanted to repair and it too came right out. Lowered it down, used the tweezers to gently grab the belt and placed it back on the pulley.
From what I found, the bottom gear that the belt rolls on seemed to be positioned higher (not fully pushed down) like all the others, so it looks like this "might" be a potential issue in the future but for now all is working perfectly!
Screwed everything back in place, powered her up and she is all good. :)
Total time to repair: 25min
Tools required: Phillips screw driver (medium size)
Tweezers worked for me but you might use something else that could be in your arsenal of tools.
Thanks
-Sam
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a136/fullforcesound/Sound%20Pics/4BE0F292-1C9B-4719-9CCB-5AB2A18B397B_zps22do18vc.jpg) (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/fullforcesound/media/Sound%20Pics/4BE0F292-1C9B-4719-9CCB-5AB2A18B397B_zps22do18vc.jpg.html)
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a136/fullforcesound/Sound%20Pics/14F27AEA-66E4-4630-B7F6-AD5AF27D0671_zpsvudoi9le.jpg) (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/fullforcesound/media/Sound%20Pics/14F27AEA-66E4-4630-B7F6-AD5AF27D0671_zpsvudoi9le.jpg.html)
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a136/fullforcesound/Sound%20Pics/B073D178-7C07-4C8B-A961-83270EA872C1_zpsyjbaq4iy.jpg) (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/fullforcesound/media/Sound%20Pics/B073D178-7C07-4C8B-A961-83270EA872C1_zpsyjbaq4iy.jpg.html)
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a136/fullforcesound/Sound%20Pics/FAF90175-B710-47F3-B385-563A6B1C6C7D_zpsz4v1wsen.jpg) (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/fullforcesound/media/Sound%20Pics/FAF90175-B710-47F3-B385-563A6B1C6C7D_zpsz4v1wsen.jpg.html)
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a136/fullforcesound/Sound%20Pics/EE83E060-F64F-4F07-8396-AA0695E278BF_zpsgu5zrlmp.jpg) (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/fullforcesound/media/Sound%20Pics/EE83E060-F64F-4F07-8396-AA0695E278BF_zpsgu5zrlmp.jpg.html)
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a136/fullforcesound/Sound%20Pics/64964D39-E6AA-4164-A8EB-524176F369AE_zpsdr0b2nc3.jpg) (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/fullforcesound/media/Sound%20Pics/64964D39-E6AA-4164-A8EB-524176F369AE_zpsdr0b2nc3.jpg.html)
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a136/fullforcesound/Sound%20Pics/61C22FD8-A5A2-4892-AF0B-73D67E2B91B9_zpsh3ao98kf.jpg) (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/fullforcesound/media/Sound%20Pics/61C22FD8-A5A2-4892-AF0B-73D67E2B91B9_zpsh3ao98kf.jpg.html)
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a136/fullforcesound/Sound%20Pics/D4BDABEB-3504-44C0-8594-391874D66A79_zpsk8btwx1s.jpg) (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/fullforcesound/media/Sound%20Pics/D4BDABEB-3504-44C0-8594-391874D66A79_zpsk8btwx1s.jpg.html)
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a136/fullforcesound/Sound%20Pics/0BE12A64-28CB-4B1D-8EE7-6756D4F26292_zps4oupr159.jpg) (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/fullforcesound/media/Sound%20Pics/0BE12A64-28CB-4B1D-8EE7-6756D4F26292_zps4oupr159.jpg.html)
SHE'S ALIVE!!! :0)
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Excellent. Well done.
I do wonder if they really need to snap to position almost instantly and if the high speed is anything to do with the track jumping off the pinion.
I'm sure they would be more reliable and it would be hardly noticeable if they moved a bit slower.
Steve.
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Well, I finally had a chance to tackle the repair job myself and it was very simple. No manual, no diagram or spec page, just a Phillips screw driver, tweezers, and a whole lotta guts! Lol
Started by removing the plastic side panels, kept all the screws separated and took pics along the way so in the event of needing to recall it was a click away.
After removing all the side, back-upper, front-under screws it popped right up. I placed a small wood block that was about 12" in length to hold the top of the console while I removed the silver machined screws that held the section (mix buss) that I wanted to repair and it too came right out. Lowered it down, used the tweezers to gently grab the belt and placed it back on the pulley.
From what I found, the bottom gear that the belt rolls on seemed to be positioned higher (not fully pushed down) like all the others, so it looks like this "might" be a potential issue in the future but for now all is working perfectly!
Screwed everything back in place, powered her up and she is all good. :)
Total time to repair: 25min
Tools required: Phillips screw driver (medium size)
Tweezers worked for me but you might use something else that could be in your arsenal of tools.
Thanks
-Sam
SHE'S ALIVE!!! :0)
Thanks for the update Sam. I am sure that at some point I will have to do this to one of the two that I own. I appreciate the pics, which make it easy to see what is being done.
Bill ;)
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From what I found, the bottom gear that the belt rolls on seemed to be positioned higher (not fully pushed down) like all the others, so it looks like this "might" be a potential issue in the future but for now all is working perfectly!
Ah yes, a chicken and egg problem. We have two problems here: Did the out-of-place gear cause the belt to slip off, or did the slipping belt cause the gear to go out of place? If you could establish which event happened first, you would be halfway to establishing a fix. If the former, perhaps it's a simple manufacturing defect -- but why didn't it slip off sooner? If the latter, is there a design flaw?
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Ah yes, a chicken and egg problem. We have two problems here: Did the out-of-place gear cause the belt to slip off, or did the slipping belt cause the gear to go out of place? If you could establish which event happened first, you would be halfway to establishing a fix. If the former, perhaps it's a simple manufacturing defect -- but why didn't it slip off sooner? If the latter, is there a design flaw?
STEVE & BILL,
I did notice that when I placed the belt back on the bottom pulley, it would track up and down while moving the fader, so my guess is that if the pulley is not pushed or inserted correctly that it will eventually cause the pulley to lift thus causing the belt to slide down and off track.
I personally don't think it would be a BAD thing if they would slow the faders just a bit which could help alleviate these types of issue from happening, but one never truly knows. Again, I work with this console on a weekly bases and I put it through a lot of mixes and its been holding up quite nicely. I'm impressed.
During this quick down time I ended up building a custom case which is attached to my FOH rack which also has the snake wired to the console so all I do is roll it to the desired location, drag the stage end of the stage near the amp rack and I'm up and running.
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a136/fullforcesound/Sound%20Pics/ACEED30F-5294-4E82-BB19-89097619CA2A_zpsqsdlygwd.jpg) (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/fullforcesound/media/Sound%20Pics/ACEED30F-5294-4E82-BB19-89097619CA2A_zpsqsdlygwd.jpg.html)
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a136/fullforcesound/Sound%20Pics/46E33C7D-9FD9-4D33-B874-AC3611AEFD24_zps9rn8mprk.jpg) (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/fullforcesound/media/Sound%20Pics/46E33C7D-9FD9-4D33-B874-AC3611AEFD24_zps9rn8mprk.jpg.html)
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a136/fullforcesound/Sound%20Pics/98E2C844-2D19-4E96-A0AA-51902D0AAC7D_zpseocp5c5p.jpg) (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/fullforcesound/media/Sound%20Pics/98E2C844-2D19-4E96-A0AA-51902D0AAC7D_zpseocp5c5p.jpg.html)
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a136/fullforcesound/Sound%20Pics/431381EB-A0F1-4A6F-8BD8-59CEACFED8A1_zpsgpxy3dpq.jpg) (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/fullforcesound/media/Sound%20Pics/431381EB-A0F1-4A6F-8BD8-59CEACFED8A1_zpsgpxy3dpq.jpg.html)
I know it's not the greatest looking case but it was my first attemp in building one for the X32. I plan on spending some more time here shortly building one out of MDF and possibly getting corner guards and edges.
That's my .2 cents :0)
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I would be quite sure the cog was pressed down to the same position on all of the faders as it left the factory. This would be an automated process and the chances of a single cog not being pressed down properly are slim to none. Note the belts aren't very tight by design, however, if the belt runs towards the bottom of the cog constantly it will tend to push the cog upwards until eventually there is enough room between the cog and bottom washer for the belt to slip under the cog, between the cog and washer where it will cease to function. If the motor is tilted back the belt will ride down the cog. If the motor is tilted forward the belt will ride up the cog and hit the flange. This is why I felt a dual flanged cog would be best. The belt will remain captured by the bottom flange on the cog.
In a mutli part design like the one being used here it will be all but impossible to guarantee perpendicular alignment. Many manufacturers use this type of design and not having a flange on the top and bottom of the cog does not make it a poor design. The goal will be to eliminate and chance of the cog moving on the motors shaft, so Loctite or a similar adhesive is called for.
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Really, it's something that the buyer of a new board should not have to worry about.
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I agree Chuck, but X32 owners tend to overlook these little issues.
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Seeing these as synchro motors the setting to zero should place the motors all at the lowest point on the fader and then the placement of the belt onto the gears should be good.
On the case I feel you would be better served with a good plywood because when you drop the case or something hits the case the particle boards will shatter like a wind shield from a car.
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I know it's not the greatest looking case but it was my first attemp in building one for the X32. I plan on spending some more time here shortly building one out of MDF and possibly getting corner guards and edges.
That's my .2 cents :0)
I don't know. The case looks pretty good, especially for a first try.
I also agree that you need to stay far away from MDF for a case - it just is not as durable as plywood. Screws don't hold as well. Other problems. MDF is also heavy as hell.
Baltic Birch seems to be the plywood of choice - seems like it is generally higher quality, fewer voids. Depending on who is handling the mixer, and how important weight is, you can choose from (in my opinion) 3/8" to 3/4" (actually it usually in metric thicknesses).
Smaller mixers can get away with 1/4", but at the cost of case rigidity. Aluminum profiles are available in all popular thicknesses. Some places also sell the ply already laminated with melamine cover.
And now back to our regular topic - thrown fader belts - already in progress...
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I don't know. The case looks pretty good, especially for a first try.
I also agree that you need to stay far away from MDF for a case - it just is not as durable as plywood. Screws don't hold as well. Other problems. MDF is also heavy as hell.
Baltic Birch seems to be the plywood of choice - seems like it is generally higher quality, fewer voids. Depending on who is handling the mixer, and how important weight is, you can choose from (in my opinion) 3/8" to 3/4" (actually it usually in metric thicknesses).
Smaller mixers can get away with 1/4", but at the cost of case rigidity. Aluminum profiles are available in all popular thicknesses. Some places also sell the ply already laminated with melamine cover.
And now back to our regular topic - thrown fader belts - already in progress...
BOB:
I agreed on some of your points, however, we've also encountered similar problems with higher end console (PM5D more recently) where the motor failured on 2 faders... So, although I would like to believe that things of this nature won't happen again in the future, it falls back on the luck if the draw. For the price, it's a fantastic console and best bang for the
buck. Like I said its put to work every weekend and I prefer it over my presonus and 02R for the small to medium sized venues.
As for the case, I will be using a plywood, at least 1/2" thick for strength and to obtain structural integrity.
Thanks.
-Sam
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BOB:
I agreed on some of your points, however, we've also encountered similar problems with higher end console (PM5D more recently) where the motor failured on 2 faders... So, although I would like to believe that things of this nature won't happen again in the future, it falls back on the luck if the draw. For the price, it's a fantastic console and best bang for the
buck. Like I said its put to work every weekend and I prefer it over my presonus and 02R for the small to medium sized venues.
As for the case, I will be using a plywood, at least 1/2" thick for strength and to obtain structural integrity.
Thanks.
-Sam
Broken belts, slipping belts, etc. Any of these problems can occur regardless of the manufacturer, design, or care taken during assembly, and the faders don't have to say Behringer on them either. If it's mechanical it will eventually break.
Try using 5/8" plywood with no voids. It will be heavier but it will also be easier to work with when creating joints and corners.
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Late to the party here. The really good news is that the faders are servicable, both to implement this simple fix, and to replace if they genuinely fail.
And replacements are available at around USD 100 for 5.
Given that the moving faders were the area of greatest concern on this board, I'm reassured that my investment would be dead in the water after a (notional) fader failure after the first 12 months warranty period.
I'm also re-assured, that even Midas Pro faders have a similar (but not identical) design flaw. That said, they do look slightly easier to replace.