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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Installed Sound/Contracting => Topic started by: Kyle Rasmussen on March 06, 2018, 12:55:34 PM
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Hi all, this is a strange situation that I've run into a few times and am curious where you fellow A1's draw the line.
I work at a museum where we have a 300 cap theater for live presentations during the day, corporate and/or social event buyouts. It's a pretty standard equipped theater: 32 channel LS9, digital stage box, suspended VRX mains/subs, 1080p 7,500 lumen projector, 10'x16' screen...
My job is to oversee, maintain, and serve as A1 for *all* presentations, meetings, events, etc. However we occasionally have clients that need more video capabilities than our theater is equipped with, and will need to hire an outside AV company to assist.
I'm in a situation where the outside company wants to bring in another A1 and use me as A2, even though they will be using entirely museum-provided equipment. Since this is essentially "my house", I don't really feel comfortable letting an outside A1 be in charge of the equipment that I buy, install and maintain, or mix on a console that I've patched and saved scenes for the daily needs of the theater, in a room that he or she has never mixed in before. I typically adhere to a "only museum staff can operate museum-owned AV equipment" policy... does that sound unreasonable to any of you?
Basically, I'm not comfortable having someone else come in to do my job.
I'm sure I'm not alone on this, but I'm curious if anyone else has had similar experiences and how to gracefully deal with it.
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Sounds like the powers-that-be will decide what your role will be ,otherwise you have to be courteous and make sure they don't blow anything up, and save all your scenes and settings before they even touch your system
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Sounds like the powers-that-be will decide what your role will be, otherwise you have to be courteous and make sure they don't blow anything up, and save all your scenes and settings before they even touch your system
Who do you mean by the powers-that-be? At work, I am the power-that-is haha. Having someone blow something up is my fear, partially because if anything happens we don't have the budget or stock to immediately replace anything. That would be a major issue for the daily presentations and other clients that have the theater reserved, and I would almost certainly get the heat for it.
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If you're using the wireless connection like an iPad or whatever, you can be ready when it or if things start getting out of control.
also set your limiters to a lower threshold on the mains.
covertly of course
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If you're using the wireless connection like an iPad or whatever, you can be ready when it or if things start getting out of control.
also set your limiters to a lower threshold on the mains.
covertly of course
We don't have an iPad unfortunately. I guess the big question is, is it unheard of for a theater with a dedicated A1 to not allow outside people to use their equipment? Especially in a setting like ours where it gets used for daily presentations and *nothing* can be out of place. Honestly it doesn't sound unreasonable to me.
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Sorry, but this ended up inserted as part of your post. Please follow the forum etiquette. Your displayed name must be your real full name as per the posting rules. Please make this change to your profile.
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Hi all, this is a strange situation
Please go to your profile and change the "Name" field to your real first and last name as required by the posting rules displayed in the header at the top of the section, and in the Site Rules and Suggestions (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/board,36.0.html) in the Forum Announcements section, and on the registration page when you registered.
Mac
admin
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Please go to your profile and change the "Name" field to your real first and last name as required by the posting rules displayed in the header at the top of the section, and in the Site Rules and Suggestions (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/board,36.0.html) in the Forum Announcements section, and on the registration page when you registered.
Mac
admin
Done. Sorry about that.
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Welcome to the forum. You'll find a lot of opinions, and a lot of very good information. I understand your situation, but sometimes you just have to grin and bear it. You may find the outside crew isn't too bad. I almost always learn something working with other people. Sometimes it how NOT to do something!
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Powers that be are your management. You don’t own the gear or the museum. Get over it.
Separate out the responsibility vs the operation. You can be A1 while an AV employee mixes the gig. Don’t get wrapped up in titles.
Have you asked (yourself or the AV company or your boss) why the AV guys want to be A1?
As said earlier, always back up settings to a USB stick.
It is reasonable in my mind for you to restrict what changes they can make such as the system DSP for example.
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One place that I work for (public place for hire) have two options for those renting the place.
Use of the pre-installed A/V are only to be operated by the designated techs provided by the town council, for a nominal fee. There are normally no exceptions to this.
The other option is for the renter to bring his own gear at their own expense and then use their own people to run it.
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Powers that be are your management. You don’t own the gear or the museum. Get over it.
Being condescending is not necessary, thanks.
Short of owning the gear personally, every piece of equipment is spec'd out, budgeted for, purchased, installed, and operated by me, the coordinator of my department. My ego is not at stake here. My only concerns are liability, and to an extent, quality control. It is my job to make sure the client has a flawless event. When you have eight panelists on a hard wood stage within two feet of each other with wireless headsets, it pays to have a mix engineer who's familiar with the space. It pays to know if the XLR patch points are at mic or line level. Etc. We've had many events where the sound was quite sub-par, and that can reflect badly on the museum. Standing by while someone else botches the job in front of me isn't exactly in my job description.
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One place that I work for (public place for hire) have two options for those renting the place.
Use of the pre-installed A/V are only to be operated by the designated techs provided by the town council, for a nominal fee. There are normally no exceptions to this.
The other option is for the renter to bring his own gear at their own expense and then use their own people to run it.
Thank you. Good to know I'm not completely alone on this. That makes perfect sense to me.
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Thank you. Good to know I'm not completely alone on this. That makes perfect sense to me.
Without knowing the particulars of the events presented I have several comments based on my own history.
One of the worst experiences I ever had as BE was a situation where the house system was to be touched by house personnel only. The touring group I was working with had a fairly production heavy set with lot's of mix and FX changes as part of the presentation. I had to shout into the house engineers ear every coming change. The artistic outcome was severely compromised!
I also work as a house engineer for a theater. I welcome BEs and end up profiting from the experience as I am exposed to techniques that might not occur to me if left on my own. In that role I am still in charge as it is communicated and understood that any operation that is detrimental to the systems will not be tolerated. But other than preventing harm to the system I do not feel it is my role change the esthetic of the presentation - if the artist/presenter is happy with a bad mix then far be it from me to suggest otherwise.
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Without knowing the particulars of the events presented I have several comments based on my own history.
One of the worst experiences I ever had as BE was a situation where the house system was to be touched by house personnel only. The touring group I was working with had a fairly production heavy set with lot's of mix and FX changes as part of the presentation. I had to shout into the house engineers ear every coming change. The artistic outcome was severely compromised!
I also work as a house engineer for a theater. I welcome BEs and end up profiting from the experience as I am exposed to techniques that might not occur to me if left on my own. In that role I am still in charge as it is communicated and understood that any operation that is detrimental to the systems will not be tolerated. But other than preventing harm to the system I do not feel it is my role change the esthetic of the presentation - if the artist/presenter is happy with a bad mix then far be it from me to suggest otherwise.
That does sound like a nightmare. The event in question is a fairly straight-forward panel discussion with several power point slide shows, nothing nearly as complicated as a touring group with FX, etc. Having done sound for live concerts in the past, I agree that's a completely different scenario entirely. I've had no problem stepping aside for touring acts at venues I've worked at... this is just a different situation altogether haha... thank you for the input!
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That does sound like a nightmare. The event in question is a fairly straight-forward panel discussion with several power point slide shows, nothing nearly as complicated as a touring group with FX, etc. Having done sound for live concerts in the past, I agree that's a completely different scenario entirely. I've had no problem stepping aside for touring acts at venues I've worked at... this is just a different situation altogether haha... thank you for the input!
Sorry about picking on you.
What is the AV company bringing in?
Why do you suppose they think they need to be in charge?
The gig as you describe it doesn’t seem to need much beyond your house system.
Think from their point of view. Have you worked with them before? Has there been points of contention?
If you can understand the motivation, then you have something to work with.
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That does sound like a nightmare. The event in question is a fairly straight-forward panel discussion with several power point slide shows, nothing nearly as complicated as a touring group with FX, etc. Having done sound for live concerts in the past, I agree that's a completely different scenario entirely. I've had no problem stepping aside for touring acts at venues I've worked at... this is just a different situation altogether haha... thank you for the input!
My background is more music oriented, but I have been through a large number of theaters, PACs and other venues as a traveling tech, as well as recently holding down a pretty simple house gig.
I would have never listed mixing as high on an A1's list of duties. As a matter of fact, I would say the more the A1 has their act together, the less it matters who is mixing. And that includes other people working on my system, other people working on systems I am responsible for, and me mixing on other people's systems.
When I was traveling, I even often said about venues that unwillingness to work with a visiting tech was a sign of their lack of professionalism.
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My job is to oversee, maintain, and serve as A1 for *all* presentations, meetings, events, etc. However we occasionally have clients that need more video capabilities than our theater is equipped with, and will need to hire an outside AV company to assist.
I'm in a situation where the outside company wants to bring in another A1 and use me as A2, even though they will be using entirely museum-provided equipment. Since this is essentially "my house", I don't really feel comfortable letting an outside A1 be in charge of the equipment that I buy, install and maintain, or mix on a console that I've patched and saved scenes for the daily needs of the theater, in a room that he or she has never mixed in before. I typically adhere to a "only museum staff can operate museum-owned AV equipment" policy... does that sound unreasonable to any of you?
I would say it depends who has hired who more than anything else.
If the outside company is being brought in by the museum's client, then I would treat them like a band engineer, to use another parallel. That is; assume they know more about the detail of how the presentations/discussions are going to work, and let them do their thing as long as it doesn't threaten your system (the other respondents' comments about saving settings & appropriate limiting apply here).
Your role would be more along the lines of system tech/house engineer in that case.
If the outside company are being brought in by you, then it's up to you to set the scope of what you're hiring them to do - whether it's just "deliver and set up an extra XYZ gizmo" because you need that one bit of kit, or whatever.
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I'm thinking all this should be/should have been ironed out before the contract was signed. If you are going expressly prohibit anyone but house technicians from operating house equipment, don't bring in events that require third party operation of house equipment. Put it in your tech specs. Don't leave it up for interpretation. Make it an initialed line item, that way at least you've made it known and somebody acknowledged it.
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Where I have heard of similar is in television broadcast.
If a band brings their own engineer for a television appearance (say, a late nite variety show), the broadcaster's engineer will mix while the BE is allowed to hover with advice like, "The horns come in right after this guitar solo..."
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Well in theory, an A1's role is to simply walk in, confirm system setup ( is it to his / her standard ) and then mix the show and leave. An A2's role is to set up the system to the A1's standard, be sure all stage power and patching is correct, handle RF management and mic changes, manage com, then clean it all up. A really nice A1 will help with setup and clean up. System design falls onto one of three peoples roles. Usually a system designer will draw up the system that will be put together, this can sometimes be an A2 or an A1 who does this or simply a system designer.
So while being the owner, operator and all of the above, it kinda makes you not an A1, but more a systems tech. A systems tech falls more into an A2 role. The systems tech is the guy who usually knows more about the PA system than the A1 and if a request is made by an A1, he can not only make the change quickly, but with confidence.
So as mentioned, don't get caught up in the titles. It is a team sport. If you are playing to win, you have to be in the game and being in the game means sharing and sharing is caring :)
What may not be clear is if the client actually hired the outside A/V company to provide an A1. You are very much a system provider and systems tech, so while you have a vested interest ( because your own the gear ), you have to allow others to succeed or fail on their own. If I am running an event and the band has a BE and they ask if they can run the desk, my answer is sure, I will be in the beer garden, if you break it you buy it...... Actually not kidding, but sort of kidding. I usually ask if they are proficient with the mixer I have provided. If the answer is no, then I suggest just shouldering me, if they are, then I say cool you break it you buy it, I will be in the beer garden, here is my number...... Don't be afraid to give up the wheel. If a show goes bad because of tech issues and it is not the venues fault, there should be no fear of it looking bad on you as long as you gave 100% to the effort in making things the best they can be.
If the system is pretty much set and requires little to no management so to speak, it should be rather easy for even an average A1 to walk in and run things with success. I can't see why there should be fear of blowing things up, that protection should already be built into your system, but a well designed system should have ample room left as to not need worrying about who is behind the wheel. If the system is on the raged edge, then perhaps. A well designed system practically runs itself.
As others have mentioned, you can always end up learning a new trick. In my case working as an A2 on some jobs, the A1 has shown me some things that have made me not only a better A2, but a better A1 as well. An A2's role is SUPER IMPORTANT to the degree where if you are really that good at it, any A1 can walk in and do exactly as they wish easily and without problems. When I play A1, I shoot to teach my A2's what can make them better at not only being an A2, but replacing me one day. You know you are a good A2 when your A1 asks a question about something and the answer is its already done, it is exactly that way already, everything is ready, all mics are checked, everything is on and hot, everything is off and cold and you have done it all before he asked. It may not be as fun to be an A2, but being an A1 sucks too. If shit hits the fan he is the FIRST person everyone looks at. The less an A1 has to worry about, the more he can focus on giving a flawless show.
I used to be VERY controlling and rigid about things too. It took me a long time to realize how much fun I was having and how easy this job really is when you have acquired a lot of the knowledge and experience at it. Soon I began to realize that my way isn't the only way, but there are certain things that truly make a difference. The things that make a difference are making it so you can always work around a problem. Having a well designed system that can do anything you need it to at any time is the key. Never having to say I can't do that is a goal. Give your system away as much as possible is what I say. You might just find it fun to turn over a system that is so well designed and tuned that even a monkey can walk in and run it with ease. Getting to that point is the hardest part. We sell an experience and a result, not limitations. Our job is to make ANYTHING possible within the confines of our employment. You fear what you don't know, so make it a goal to start knowing it.
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This is in a band vs BE situation but most principles still apply.
I sometimes help out on a yearly event another company does here. This is a 3 man show. A monitor guy/stage hand, A system designer/coordinator/mix engineer and me.
All I do is mix the bands so that makes me A1. But I'm essentially with the production company so when a band comes in with their own BE all they get is the talk and a babysitting from me. The talk always includes me telling them what their limitations are and that after a third warning(level) I will take over.
When I'm out with my own equipment I sometimes end up as an A1 by default cause there is no one else there. No offense but this might be the situation here. They will run your system and you are there to answer their questions and keeping things in check.
This last one depends on the specifics of the situation. If the company is sending someone over they are probably providing an AV solution which can be very specialized/unique and/or complicated. They will have the same reservations as you do. If their equipment malfunctions or doesn't do what it should because of house-operator errors it could reflect badly on them.
If all you need is one extra piece of equipment there should be no need for extra personnel unless you are unfamiliar with the device and/or their guy knows certain specifics about the events (where his cues are for instance).
If the client however insists that the production company a1's the event none of this may matter. They are the ones responsible in his/her eyes and you are there to help them as if you rented your equipment to them.
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Hi all, this is a strange situation that I've run into a few times and am curious where you fellow A1's draw the line.
I work at a museum where we have a 300 cap theater for live presentations during the day, corporate and/or social event buyouts. It's a pretty standard equipped theater: 32 channel LS9, digital stage box, suspended VRX mains/subs, 1080p 7,500 lumen projector, 10'x16' screen...
My job is to oversee, maintain, and serve as A1 for *all* presentations, meetings, events, etc. However we occasionally have clients that need more video capabilities than our theater is equipped with, and will need to hire an outside AV company to assist.
I'm in a situation where the outside company wants to bring in another A1 and use me as A2, even though they will be using entirely museum-provided equipment. Since this is essentially "my house", I don't really feel comfortable letting an outside A1 be in charge of the equipment that I buy, install and maintain, or mix on a console that I've patched and saved scenes for the daily needs of the theater, in a room that he or she has never mixed in before. I typically adhere to a "only museum staff can operate museum-owned AV equipment" policy... does that sound unreasonable to any of you?
Basically, I'm not comfortable having someone else come in to do my job.
I'm sure I'm not alone on this, but I'm curious if anyone else has had similar experiences and how to gracefully deal with it.
Kyle, a venue that I have done several shows for is setup much the same way you are talking about. They have a staff with an A1 and I have, on several shows, been asked to come and mix. The rule at the venue is that you have to have gone through an 8 hour training session on the system and rules. You also have to sign off that anything that is broken during the show is to be repaired with funds from the show or my pocket. We have to check each wireless before we take it for the show and prior to putting it back after the show with the theatre A1. I am good with all of this. People have me do their show because I have decades of theatre experience.
This approach seems to work well.
Backup your LS9 to a USB stick and computer prior to visiting A1 coming in
Visiting A1 has to be trained on this system
Performance group or who ever is renting the facility is responsible for any repairs
All equipment is tested at checkout and check-in
Any physical changes to signal routing ie moving cable etc. have to be approved by you
You reserve the right to disqualify visiting A1
When show is done load your USB stick back to the mixer
I think that takes care of it.
Bill
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Unless I missed something, the museum is hiring the outside company. If that is the case, your house/your rules. Doesn't mean you can't be flexible and work with them.
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hey
another one coming from the music side rather than corporate events, but I agree with most of the music based comments above.
The band bringing their own engineer is a pretty common thing, even low level bands are starting to do it nowadays and anyone of any level above this will usually have their own engineer. They're the ones that have worked with the band and know what "sound" they're looking for, and know the songs. They know when the horns come in, when to push the reverb or delay for a particular effect, when the singer hits a quiet section and needs a we push on the fader etc etc.
If they come to my house venue, or if I'm system teching as part of the rental company providing a system, then I'm there to facilitate a good show, so will help them set up the band and mic everything up, and am happy to let them mix the show. However from their side they know I'll be there babysitting and checking everything goes smoothly, and I'll have no problem providing some "advice" or if worst came to worst stepping in of there is a danger of something being broken.
The result is we regularly get told Glasgow is their favourite stop of the tour, and is the smoothest and easiest show of the run. To be honest, always kind of confuses me wondering what other engineers do to make this not the case. We're all there to work together and put on the best show possible.
So yeah, I don't see your situation being all that different.
From the event's company point of view, there's lots of great house engineers in venues all across the world, and I'm sure you're one of them. But there's also some who aren't as experienced or capable, and maybe they've had a bad experience in the past, just prefer to have someone they trust and who has worked with them before and knows how the night runs to make sure things go smoothly.
If they want an engineer there then let him mix, they're paying the bills. You'll be there to babysit and make sure it all goes well (you'll know straight away whether he knows his stuff or seems a bit inexperienced and how much you're gonna have to help him).
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Here’s one more perspective, more from the corporate side...
I’ve been on both sides of the discussion as an engineer for an outside venue, and as a house tech. In either position, my preference is to have the house A1 available and located at FOH. That way the house A1 - you - can help sort out routing, answer questions about console operation if the visiting A1 is not that familiar, give the heads-up about any gotchas particular to the venue, interact with the other house staff (stage management, front of house staff, etc.), and troubleshoot/put out fires if anything comes up. If I’m the house A1, of course I like to be free to watch out for any unsafe use of the system and be ready to jump in if anything really goes sideways - the outside engineer is probably fine, but it’s always possible they will be completely clueless, and if I can save the show without stepping on anyone’s toes, everybody wins.
I‘d be less comfortable with a scenario where the house A1 gets repurposed as A2. In that case, you aren’t really available to put out fires since you’ve got a show track that keeps you away from FOH. It could be OK in some smaller venues but I’d make the case to your management that either your venue or the vendor should supply the A2 so you can stay at FOH.
That arrangement should be best for all - you can keep an eye on the A1 and have a nice relaxed day, and the A1 can mix his show and have a capable helper if he needs it.
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I have always thought of the A1 as the lead audio person with the other audio folk being A2.
This has nothing to do with who is mixing. To me, it is a management title. In any event, for each technical discipline (audio, protection, or lights for example) there needs to be one person in charge. In the audio world, I see that as the A1.
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If the museum is hiring the AV company on behalf of a client renting the theater or the client is bringing them in directly, the AV company works for the rental client and there is a presumption of deference to the relationship between the rental client & production company. If the AV company is hired by the museum to supplement the installed system, the AV company works for the museum and presumably you'd have been in on the hire. If you were not that person, it is THAT person you need to be talking to about the who has what authority and responsibility.
I'm one of the house A1s at our PAC, rooms from 600 to 5000 capacity. All have some kind of installed audio and supplemental portable gear that comes with the venue rental. If a client brings in their own production (however limited or extravagant) my job is to be the interface between the house and client. The client is already paying for use of certain assets and I'd probably get in trouble if I were to say "no, you can't use that if I'm not driving." My job would be driving inspector, not driver, to protect the City's assets while providing access to whatever comes with the room.
As the Outside A1 I'd consider it part of my gig to have YOU in the email loop so we can get a common understanding of what Our Mutual Client wants and we can work out the details between ourselves. If I or my firm are being brought in it's because OMC believes we can best deliver their message. I'd rather have you on the team, bringing your facility and asset knowledge and in-venue experience to the table. That might mean you're mixing audio or switching video or running playback, or you could be reading a book during the show. Regardless of your exact showtime role you have some responsibility for the outcome of the event and I really like happy clients. I enjoy writing nice thank you letters that look good to superiors, too. :)
So there's obviously a back story to this. Care to share?
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Hi all, this is a strange situation that I've run into a few times and am curious where you fellow A1's draw the line.
I work at a museum where we have a 300 cap theater for live presentations during the day, corporate and/or social event buyouts. It's a pretty standard equipped theater: 32 channel LS9, digital stage box, suspended VRX mains/subs, 1080p 7,500 lumen projector, 10'x16' screen...
My job is to oversee, maintain, and serve as A1 for *all* presentations, meetings, events, etc. However we occasionally have clients that need more video capabilities than our theater is equipped with, and will need to hire an outside AV company to assist.
I'm in a situation where the outside company wants to bring in another A1 and use me as A2, even though they will be using entirely museum-provided equipment. Since this is essentially "my house", I don't really feel comfortable letting an outside A1 be in charge of the equipment that I buy, install and maintain, or mix on a console that I've patched and saved scenes for the daily needs of the theater, in a room that he or she has never mixed in before. I typically adhere to a "only museum staff can operate museum-owned AV equipment" policy... does that sound unreasonable to any of you?
Basically, I'm not comfortable having someone else come in to do my job.
I'm sure I'm not alone on this, but I'm curious if anyone else has had similar experiences and how to gracefully deal with it.
I'm a little late to the party here, but I honestly don't see a problem with this. At least not in any situation I've been in.
It's your house, it's your audience, and ultimately YOU will be held accountable if anything goes wrong. That means the gear blowing up, or the show not sounding good. You have a patron base to keep happy. So let them drive, and keep an eye on the gear. If the client is bringing in everything and everyone to run their production, it's likely far easier for them to do that with someone they know and trust, just like it's easier for you to run your system the way it's set up than have an outsider come in and tinker with it. You're there to support the act. Get them a clean 1:1 patch with working outputs and let them drive. Set your limiters. Set boundaries (do not exceed xdB at y'...ideally done during contracting), make sure you backup your scenes in at least 2 different places, and take photos of all of your I/O if you're worried that'll change too.
In the future, you may want to try to be brought into the loop with whoever is doing booking for your organization. I know where I am, if anyone requests any form of technology, I either see a rider, or make sure we have the capabilities to provide or obtain the services necessary before signing anything to make the event a successful one. Sometimes that includes me booking an extra tech to do nothing more than play games on a tablet for the entire show as long as they're capable of jumping in if anything gets hairy with our equipment, sometimes we rent a mixer, or lights to fulfill a rider...
It might just be my view, but in the end of the day, I work for the client. The only reason I get a paycheck is because people want to perform in my house, and other people want to watch. I am there to make sure they have a good time/experience and deliver a contracted service (yes, I said and mean have a good time, because I don't go to work every day to fight a war with somebody, that makes life crap). I love it when other people come mix, gives me an opportunity to learn something new. :)