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Title: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 20, 2013, 08:52:06 PM
Any tips on how to approach micing a drum kit that's in a plexiglass shield?

My problem so far has been bleed. Now, obviously I expect some, since the drums are so close together and the sound is bouncing all over the walls of the shield, but sometimes the bleed can be bad enough that a mic is picking up more of the rest of the kit than the individual drum it's pointed at.

It's mostly the kick drum and toms that need the mics. The cymbals are already louder than I would like without any mics so I don't even bother putting them into the mains most of the time. The snare can go either way depending on the drummer or the song. Sometimes it's so loud I pull the mic all the way off and other times I give it a boost. The toms on the other hand can almost always use a little boost.

The problem often with tom mics though is that they often pick up just as much snare and cymbals as they do toms, even if they're pointed directly at the toms and no more than an inch away from the heads.

I've used gates/expanders before but it doesn't help if the drummer is playing that drum plus a cymbal at the same time. For instance playing the high tom and the hi hat or ride at the same time.

The kick drum I think I basically have figured out, although I wish I had two of them so I could blend the beater sound and the body of the drum instead of having to choose one or the other.

Anyway, thoughts?
Title: Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 20, 2013, 09:16:23 PM
 Frequency sensitive gates.  You need real gates with filters that narrow the trigger frequency such that only the intended source will open the gate.  Your basic on/off gate that comes as a bonus feature on your average inexpensive compressor will be of no use whatsoever.

If you have the ability to side-chain either a graphic or parametric EQ into whatever gate you have, you can set a trigger frequency to open the gate. 

So there are basically two ways to do it:

1.  the type which uses a selected center frequency

or

2.  the type which excludes all unwanted frequencies by using high and low shelving filters.
Title: Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 20, 2013, 09:19:10 PM
Frequency sensitive gates.  You need real gates with filters that narrow the trigger frequency such that only the intended source will open the gate.  Your basic on/off gate that comes as a bonus feature on your average inexpensive compressor will be of no use whatsoever.

If you have the ability to side-chain either a graphic or parametric EQ into whatever gate you have, you can set a trigger frequency to open the gate. 

So there are basically two ways to do it:

1.  the type which uses a selected center frequency

or

2.  the type which excludes all unwanted frequencies by using high and low shelving filters.

hmm, unfortunately there are no side-chain filters on the gates on our board, so in order to get that we'd have to get some outboard dynamics processors of some kind.
Title: Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 20, 2013, 09:28:18 PM
hmm, unfortunately there are no side-chain filters on the gates on our board, so in order to get that we'd have to get some outboard dynamics processors of some kind.

In your case, I would use a small sub-mixer for anything you need to gate and properly process them before they hit your digital doo-hickey. 

Where are you positioning the kick mic?
Title: Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 20, 2013, 09:36:31 PM
In your case, I would use a small sub-mixer for anything you need to gate and properly process them before they hit your digital doo-hickey. 

Where are you positioning the kick mic?

Alright. I will also probably look at other mics, since I think we have a number of super/hyper cardioid mics and I think some standard cardioids might work better.

As for the kick mic I've experimented with placement a bit. At this moment I have the head of mic just barely inside the sound hole, attempting to get the "body" of the drum, and just a tiny bit of beater. It's working alright for now. Were I to use a two-mic approach I'd have one that captured basically nothing but low end and one that captured almost nothing but beater. That way I could crank the low end mic so that it's really pumping in the sub, and then have just a little bit of the beater mic to give some tone and "snap" to the kick.
Title: Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 20, 2013, 09:49:46 PM
At this moment I have the head of mic just barely inside the sound hole, attempting to get the "body" of the drum, and just a tiny bit of beater.

Forget that.  If your primary concern is to gate the kick with what you have, you'll want to get the mic close enough to the beater and set the threshold on the gate so that only the kick will be loud enough to open the gate.

What good does it do you to get the body of the drum when you're also getting the rest of the kit?

Title: Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 20, 2013, 09:50:52 PM
Forget that.  If your primary concern is to gate the kick with what you have, you'll want to get the mic close enough to the beater and set the threshold on the gate so that only the kick will be loud enough to open the gate.

What good does it do you to get the body of the drum when you're also getting the rest of the kit?

Actually the kick is the only mic where I don't really have the issue of picking up a ton of the other drums.
Title: Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
Post by: Taylor Phillips on January 20, 2013, 11:28:36 PM
I've mostly only done drum kits with limited mics and have had some success by placing mics where they look a bit odd on stage.  I had four mics for a whole kit where the crash cymbal was too loud, but I needed more high hat and high tom than what was coming from the stage acoustically, so I moved the mic off to the side and a bit in front so I could point it at the tom and hat and away from the crash.  From the mix position it looked really out of place, but it sounded the way I wanted it.  This may not work with a shield though because of one, space, and two, reflections.
Title: Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 21, 2013, 01:54:19 AM
...This may not work with a shield though because of one, space, and two, reflections.

Yeah, there's only so many places I can put the mics due to the space limitations.
Title: Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
Post by: Frank DeWitt on January 21, 2013, 10:02:20 AM
Unfortunately you are trying to fix the problem that is caused by another problem that is caused by the the original problem.
The drums are being played to loud.
I attended a seminar on micing drums given by two professional drummers and a professional producer.  The guy sitting at the kit said "If you need a shield, take that money and spend it on lessons for your drummer." The other two agreed.   It may take training, it may take IEMs, but drums can be played at any number of volumes. 

BTW We are a 200 person church in a room that will hold 270  We have a full drum kit with mics and the drums are not so loud that they control the mix.

Frank
Title: Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 21, 2013, 10:12:20 AM
Unfortunately you are trying to fix the problem that is caused by another problem that is caused by the the original problem.
The drums are being played to loud.
I attended a seminar on micing drums given by two professional drummers and a professional producer.  The guy sitting at the kit said "If you need a shield, take that money and spend it on lessons for your drummer." The other two agreed.   It may take training, it may take IEMs, but drums can be played at any number of volumes. 

BTW We are a 200 person church in a room that will hold 270  We have a full drum kit with mics and the drums are not so loud that they control the mix.

Frank

We all rush to address the problem the way it's stated.  But when you get right down to it, this is really the gist of the matter.

Well said, Frank.
Title: Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 21, 2013, 11:02:15 AM
The drummer can play at a reasonable volume provided they can clearly hear the drum kit. I know because during our christmas service she played with no shield and the volume level was perfectly fine (although very little reinforcement was needed on the drums).

But the headphones she's using as IEMs block out the sound of the drums. So then we have to put drums in her ears. But if the drums aren't loud enough in her ears she's going to play loud. This is why I started that thread a little while back on open-ear monitors, wondering if they would work well in our case.

The only other problem is that I believe the back wall of the stage is reflecting a lot of the sound of the drums and guitar amps. Because the acoustic volume of the drums and the guitar amps is actually louder in the back of the room than it is in the front row.
Title: Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
Post by: Kent Thompson on January 21, 2013, 11:09:08 AM
Since changing the drummer and the way he/she plays is sometimes a fruitless endeavor, changing out the gongs on the stands for some nice thin quieter cymbals will be a major help. Getting some sound proofing material and coating as much of the plexiglass shield as possible will help as well.
Title: Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
Post by: Frank DeWitt on January 21, 2013, 11:48:55 AM
The drummer can play at a reasonable volume provided they can clearly hear the drum kit. I know because during our christmas service she played with no shield and the volume level was perfectly fine (although very little reinforcement was needed on the drums).

But the headphones she's using as IEMs block out the sound of the drums. So then we have to put drums in her ears. But if the drums aren't loud enough in her ears she's going to play loud. This is why I started that thread a little while back on open-ear monitors, wondering if they would work well in our case.

The only other problem is that I believe the back wall of the stage is reflecting a lot of the sound of the drums and guitar amps. Because the acoustic volume of the drums and the guitar amps is actually louder in the back of the room than it is in the front row.

Jason, this is great news.  You have a good drummer,  It is easier to fix tech problems then people / skill problems.

The best fix would be to get her IEM with her own personal mixer (Control surface)  I understand that this is easy to say and hard to do.   Some other thoughts.  Do you have a extra aux that you could use just for here earphone mix? 

Another possibility would be to get one of the little "more of me" devices such as the Rolls PM 55.  Set up a microphone on a boom and place it near the drummers left ear.  This lets her hear what she would hear if playing alone.  It has been recommended as a good one mic or two mic location for micing the whole kit.

Re the back wall,  I get that.  We had to move our entire worship team and place the drum kit in front of the team in order to get away from a stone wall.

BTW  When we went to IEMs and personal mixers for everyone, our stage volume went down automatically INCLUDING the drums  I was surprised but they were playing louder to hear them selves.   We had no amps on stage for a long time and used emulators.  Now we allow amps in a separate back room and mic the amps.  This mic channel is fed to the guitar player by his IEM mixer.  They seem to like it.

It sounds like your church is really crying for full IEMs with personal mixers. 
Title: Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
Post by: Nick Simon on January 21, 2013, 11:53:50 AM
cymbal bleed is what always gives me fits....
Title: Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 21, 2013, 11:58:46 AM
Jason, this is great news.  You have a good drummer,  It is easier to fix tech problems then people / skill problems.

The best fix would be to get her IEM with her own personal mixer (Control surface)  I understand that this is easy to say and hard to do.   Some other thoughts.  Do you have a extra aux that you could use just for here earphone mix? 

Another possibility would be to get one of the little "more of me" devices such as the Rolls PM 55.  Set up a microphone on a boom and place it near the drummers left ear.  This lets her hear what she would hear if playing alone.  It has been recommended as a good one mic or two mic location for micing the whole kit.

Re the back wall,  I get that.  We had to move our entire worship team and place the drum kit in front of the team in order to get away from a stone wall.

BTW  When we went to IEMs and personal mixers for everyone, our stage volume went down automatically INCLUDING the drums  I was surprised but they were playing louder to hear them selves.   We had no amps on stage for a long time and used emulators.  Now we allow amps in a separate back room and mic the amps.  This mic channel is fed to the guitar player by his IEM mixer.  They seem to like it.

It sounds like your church is really crying for full IEMs with personal mixers.

They really are.

The drummer right now has her own AUX from FOH, although she can't control it at all. So we just set the levels according to what she asks for. I think she needs the drums louder in her ears though than she has them now (hopefully not much), especially the cymbals and snare, because those are still too loud.

It may be that we have to ditch the shield first, figure out mic placement and get the right gate and EQ settings before her mix will work and she'll be able to play quieter.
Title: Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 21, 2013, 12:19:20 PM
They really are.

The drummer right now has her own AUX from FOH, although she can't control it at all. So we just set the levels according to what she asks for. I think she needs the drums louder in her ears though than she has them now (hopefully not much), especially the cymbals and snare, because those are still too loud.

It may be that we have to ditch the shield first, figure out mic placement and get the right gate and EQ settings before her mix will work and she'll be able to play quieter.

What does she want/need in her aux mix?  Do you have the time outside of actual performance to work on her monitor situation?

There are lots of variations in monitor setups.  It would seem that she can play at a reasonable volume without headphones or IEM.  If she needs vocals, it might work to give her "vocal only" monitoring from some small monitors which could be mounted at her ear level, something like a HotSpot or a powered near-field monitor (or monitors) which could be mounted on mic stands.

Positioning the guitar amps to fire across the stage will help the sound out front and taking that into consideration can also help in the on-stage monitoring, alleviating the need for her to have any guitar in the monitors and thereby simplifying her monitor mix.

So it would help to know what she needs to hear.  I agree with Frank that  personal control of her monitor content/level might be very nice.  It's amazing what you can do with a $75 sub-mixer. 
Title: Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 21, 2013, 12:56:28 PM
What does she want/need in her aux mix?  Do you have the time outside of actual performance to work on her monitor situation?

There are lots of variations in monitor setups.  It would seem that she can play at a reasonable volume without headphones or IEM.  If she needs vocals, it might work to give her "vocal only" monitoring from some small monitors which could be mounted at her ear level, something like a HotSpot or a powered near-field monitor (or monitors) which could be mounted on mic stands.

Positioning the guitar amps to fire across the stage will help the sound out front and taking that into consideration can also help in the on-stage monitoring, alleviating the need for her to have any guitar in the monitors and thereby simplifying her monitor mix.

So it would help to know what she needs to hear.  I agree with Frank that  personal control of her monitor content/level might be very nice.  It's amazing what you can do with a $75 sub-mixer.

Well, currently her mix has the drums, the lead vocals, the guitars and the piano. This is per her request. She can't hear the guitar amps in her cage with her headphones on. Even though, right now, the guitar amps actually are firing across the stage.

Next week we'll be going down to the local pro audio shop to look at integrating a Presonus StudioLive 24.4.2 mixer to provide personal monitoring for everyone on stage. More than half the band has iPhones already and a used iPod Touch is pretty cheap nowadays.
Title: Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
Post by: Frank DeWitt on January 21, 2013, 03:42:56 PM
Well, currently her mix has the drums, the lead vocals, the guitars and the piano. This is per her request. She can't hear the guitar amps in her cage with her headphones on. Even though, right now, the guitar amps actually are firing across the stage.

Next week we'll be going down to the local pro audio shop to look at integrating a Presonus StudioLive 24.4.2 mixer to provide personal monitoring for everyone on stage. More than half the band has iPhones already and a used iPod Touch is pretty cheap nowadays.

Interesting,  Will you be using the StudioLive as a head to drive IEMs and there mixes or also use it as your FOH board?

I note that the SL has 10 auxes  Does this give 10 independent mixes or are they 5 stereo auxes?  If 5, is that enough different mixes for your Worship team?  I assume it also needs a computer and a wireless router?

10 IEM mixes for $3K plus i-touch and phones ETC seems like a good deal.  5, I would go in a different direction.  I am asking because I know very little about the StudioLive, not because I think it is a good or bad idea.  Just education.

 
Title: Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 21, 2013, 03:45:40 PM
Interesting,  Will you be using the StudioLive as a head to drive IEMs and there mixes or also use it as your FOH board?

I note that the SL has 10 auxes  Does this give 10 independent mixes or are they 5 stereo auxes?  If 5, is that enough different mixes for your Worship team?  I assume it also needs a computer and a wireless router?

10 IEM mixes for $3K plus i-touch and phones ETC seems like a good deal.  5, I would go in a different direction.  I am asking because I know very little about the StudioLive, not because I think it is a good or bad idea.  Just education.

They can be configured as 10 mono or 5 stereo. We'll be using 10 mono. I understand stereo is nicer, but we've used mono for years now and it's perfectly fine, especially if you have a good quality signal.

We would be using the SL as a head to drive IEMs and their mixes, as you said, and continue to use the Roland for FOH. It'll be less than $4k altogether including headphone amps.
Title: Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
Post by: Frank DeWitt on January 21, 2013, 04:51:33 PM
They can be configured as 10 mono or 5 stereo. We'll be using 10 mono. I understand stereo is nicer, but we've used mono for years now and it's perfectly fine, especially if you have a good quality signal.

We would be using the SL as a head to drive IEMs and their mixes, as you said, and continue to use the Roland for FOH. It'll be less than $4k altogether including headphone amps.

Cool.  We use a Rane HC-6.  With some creative wiring of the plugs you can get 12 mono signals through it and it sounds good.  BTW there are a bunch on Ebay right now.  We use ours with a SAC system
Title: Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
Post by: Thomas Harkin on January 21, 2013, 05:13:40 PM
Unfortunately you are trying to fix the problem that is caused by another problem that is caused by the the original problem.
The drums are being played to loud.
I attended a seminar on micing drums given by two professional drummers and a professional producer.  The guy sitting at the kit said "If you need a shield, take that money and spend it on lessons for your drummer." The other two agreed.   It may take training, it may take IEMs, but drums can be played at any number of volumes. 

BTW We are a 200 person church in a room that will hold 270  We have a full drum kit with mics and the drums are not so loud that they control the mix.

Frank

+1 with a bullet!!

In the meantime, try micing just the kick, along with only one, or two, overhead condenser mics. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised with the results.
Title: Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 21, 2013, 05:22:49 PM
+1 with a bullet!!

In the meantime, try micing just the kick, along with only one, or two, overhead condenser mics. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised with the results.

Not that pleasantly, unfortunately. I tried this approach during our christmas service and I couldn't run the overheads very hot at all or they would feedback. So you couldn't really even hear them through the speakers. Don't know if it was a problem of the drum kit being too close to the subwoofer or what. I don't normally have feedback issues with other microphones.
Title: Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 21, 2013, 05:45:54 PM
Not that pleasantly, unfortunately. I tried this approach during our christmas service and I couldn't run the overheads very hot at all or they would feedback. So you couldn't really even hear them through the speakers. Don't know if it was a problem of the drum kit being too close to the subwoofer or what. I don't normally have feedback issues with other microphones.

Try lowering them.  Loudest sound at the mic wins.

Get in there and stick your head around, listen for spots where everything seems balanced and try a mic there. 

I have done drum kits in unbelievably high ambient noise levels using hyper-cardioids pulled down tight on the kit using the nulls to regulate the cymbal content.  Solo the headphones......nothing but kit.

There's an answer.  It will seem simple once you find it.  Don't assume anything.
Title: Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
Post by: Thomas Harkin on January 21, 2013, 08:02:43 PM
Try lowering them.  Loudest sound at the mic wins.

Get in there and stick your head around, listen for spots where everything seems balanced and try a mic there. 

I have done drum kits in unbelievably high ambient noise levels using hyper-cardioids pulled down tight on the kit using the nulls to regulate the cymbal content.  Solo the headphones......nothing but kit.

There's an answer.  It will seem simple once you find it.  Don't assume anything.

I thought you said the drummer was on headphones.  As Dick said, the loudest sound wins.  What was the feedback path?  Where were the speakers that were feeding it?

"There's an answer."

Start simple and break down the problem. Get the mics as close as possible to the drums, without getting in the drummer's way.

I suggested this method because I've had good success with it.

(EDIT)
I missed the mention of the subwoofer. Did you have the high pass filter on the overheads?

Blessings,
Title: Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 21, 2013, 08:13:11 PM
I thought you said the drummer was on headphones.  As Dick said, the loudest sound wins.  What was the feedback path?  Where were the speakers that were feeding it?

"There's an answer."

Start simple and break down the problem. Get the mics as close as possible to the drums, without getting in the drummer's way.

I suggested this method because I've had good success with it.

(EDIT)
I missed the mention of the subwoofer. Did you have the high pass filter on the overheads?

Blessings,

I did, although it may have been set too low.

If you stand right next to the sub with a hot mic in your hand and the HPF is below 280Hz, you'll get feedback. I think the sub just has a crappy crossover. Because 280Hz seems unnaturally high, yet I can ramp up the HPF to about 350Hz on a vocal channel before you start to notice it sounding "thinner" at all.
Title: Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 21, 2013, 08:17:59 PM
I did, although it may have been set too low.

If you stand right next to the sub with a hot mic in your hand and the HPF is below 280Hz, you'll get feedback. I think the sub just has a crappy crossover. Because 280Hz seems unnaturally high, yet I can ramp up the HPF to about 350Hz on a vocal channel before you start to notice it sounding "thinner" at all.

Why did you not simply raise the HPF on the OH's until the feedback stopped?

You have to try things.  And you have to think......but not too much...... 8)
Title: Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 21, 2013, 08:22:43 PM
Why did you not simply raise the HPF on the OH's until the feedback stopped?

You have to try things.  And you have to think......but not too much...... 8)

It was quicker and easier to just turn them down than to experiment with what HPF setting I could get away with at the time.

Anyway, I think we just need to experiment with things. I do think ditching the snare and tom mics and just trying the kick + OHs may work if we have it setup right. I'm also all for getting rid of the drum shield if we can get the drummer's monitors figured out. I'll experiment a bit this weekend.
Title: Re: Drum mics in plexiglass shield
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 21, 2013, 08:33:14 PM
It was quicker and easier to just turn them down than to experiment with what HPF setting I could get away with at the time.

Anyway, I think we just need to experiment with things. I do think ditching the snare and tom mics and just trying the kick + OHs may work if we have it setup right. I'm also all for getting rid of the drum shield if we can get the drummer's monitors figured out. I'll experiment a bit this weekend.

You can do a kit very nicely with 3 mics.  Two if you work at it.

Edit:


Here's a link to a drum kit miking discussion.

http://soundforums.net/junior-varsity/6081-one-my-favorite-drum-mic-techniques.html