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Title: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Steve Cook on February 21, 2012, 04:43:12 PM
This one I just don't get.  There's a snobbery amongst original musicians towards cover bands.  At least in my area there is, and some things I read online. 

 
Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Charlie Zureki on February 21, 2012, 04:45:39 PM
This one I just don't get.  There's a snobbery amongst original musicians towards cover bands.  At least in my area there is, and some things I read online.

   Ok... and... your point is...?

  Hammer
Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Steve Cook on February 21, 2012, 04:58:45 PM
   Ok... and... your point is...?

  Hammer

Ok, thanks.  Light bulb went on--it's generally musicians on the 'local' level, and few on the regional, and none that I know on the national level.
Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Charlie Zureki on February 21, 2012, 05:25:48 PM
Ok, thanks.  Light bulb went on--it's generally musicians on the 'local' level, and few on the regional, and none that I know on the national level.

  Hello Steve,

   I think that original bands that hate cover bands are "hate'n" for one of two reasons... either they themselves can't play these covers well enough to get gigs   Or... they are just haters...hoping that their music will get the appreciation that they think it deserves.  (wether it's true or not is another whole bag o' rosin)

 
  I don't necessarily see cover bands and original bands as competition, but, I suppose it is market dependant....

  Good Luck,
  Hammer   
Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Lee Brenkman on February 21, 2012, 06:17:31 PM
This one I just don't get.  There's a snobbery amongst original musicians towards cover bands.  At least in my area there is, and some things I read online.


As others have noted, it's on the local level of rock bands that I've known about this being the case since about 1964.

Some of it is artistic snobbery on the part of people who consider themselves "true artist" and a great deal of it is envy that a good cover band can regularly command more money and work a wider variety of venues than a band that only plays those "songs no one has ever heard of"

There was also, in my younger days a real strong divide between "real", "traditional" folk musicians and the "commercial" ones.   This has died down considerably since the days of the Kingston Trio's heyday and what Utah Phillps called "the great folk music scare of the 1960s" but I occasionally still see the "Real folk musicians have day jobs" bumper sticker.  The implication is that, if you do it "professionally" you're not a REAL folk musician.

Me, I just go with the "two kinds of music, good and bad" crowd.
Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Bob Charest on February 21, 2012, 06:24:49 PM
Me, I just go with the "two kinds of music, good and bad" crowd.
+1 - Like Duke Ellington said "If it sounds good, it is good."
Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Tim Tyler on February 21, 2012, 07:02:20 PM
+1 to Lee.

Added to the artistic "snobbery" and jealousy, is a great hypocrisy... bands/artists who want to have recognition and great popular acceptance (ie. - "hit record"), with the inevitable honor of having this work of art covered by other bands...

-Tim T
Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Bob Leonard on February 21, 2012, 07:08:08 PM
+1 - Like Duke Ellington said "If it sounds good, it is good."
I have to go along with that. We play mostly covers of 60's and blues tunes and in the past I have had people ask me why I continue to cover older songs. My reply has always been that I'm doing nothing more than what has been done since Elvis started covering great black artists in the 50's. We have our own style and the cover sounds like us and no one else.
Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Steve Cook on February 21, 2012, 07:46:42 PM
+1 - Like Duke Ellington said "If it sounds good, it is good."

Pretty simple formula, and it's one I've based my band upon.  There's only 2 rules. 

In tune. 

On time.

And I didn't want to sound like an arrogant jerk, but to me it does appear that the 'haters' lack the talent and discipline to play 3 hours of covers.  Luckily there's not much for direct competition, as the clubs here are either original OR covers, rarely both.

I might be getting a biased view on this here, because this forum is full of experienced pro's.  I might go over to sevenstring.org and see what their opinion on this is.

 I'm 42, had my first 'paid' gig when I was 18. Graduate of McNally/Smith and 2 years of Jazz studies at the University level, which means I can play a wrong note and explain for 2 hours how it was really the right one!  What I have noticed, compared to 20 years ago, is back then, when you went to see another band, you stood back in the corner with your arms folded and would diss the band and hit the notes the singer couldn't hit.

Thankfully, that's changed.  But the artistic snobs....it would be nice i they would realize that we are all brothers and sisters and unity is stronger than contempt.
Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Woody Nuss on February 22, 2012, 01:26:52 AM
Because one is art and the other is craft. You don't "create" covers.
Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Bob Charest on February 22, 2012, 11:46:23 AM
Because one is art and the other is craft. You don't "create" covers.
Hi Woody,

Almost agreed... but not quite for me. As a composer, I appreciate what goes into the original, and the study and effort that goes into an realistic/authentic cover.

I've heard many an original that didn't even rise to the level of craft, never mind art - on many levels, classical and jazz among them. And, I would argue that to use the particular ensemble available  to "cover" something really accurately might be a bit more than craft. Take the multi-keyboard components of Cousin Dupree for example... and undoubtedly the original is at a level that is art for me. To reproduce that means that one has to hear all those layers and find a way to cover them, and if your one keyboard player, it's almost impossible.

To use the classical repetoire as an example, Richard Goode's playing of a Beethoven sonata is definitely art, even though he didn't write it.

Or maybe I've just had too much coffee and am thinking too much after taking off Rod Argent's solo on the Zombies' Time Of The Season  :)
Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Brian Elstro on February 22, 2012, 03:11:31 PM
Steve, I have some friends in your area, and some of them could be who you're talking about (I'm not concerned...lol). Alot of it seems to be based on how much the original artist gets paid for their time and effort vs how much time and effort it takes to learn a cover and play it. I've been in both cover and original bands, the cover band played 6-8 times a month, making as much as 150/person a night. The original band played maybe once a month, and got paid much less (embarrasingly less, no joke) for ten times the rehearsal time as the cover band. I never have understood the nihilistic attitude that original 'artists' have. 90% of the time the cover band was there just to have fun and play some tunes that we all enjoyed in our youth.... and I havent met a sobberish drummer yet that can play for 6 hours.... " I leave it all out there in the one set I have...", yeah... maybe so.... play Green Grass And High Tides and Freebird to open the 4th set one time then you can say something to me!
Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Chris Davis on February 22, 2012, 03:52:46 PM
Steve, I have some friends in your area, and some of them could be who you're talking about (I'm not concerned...lol). Alot of it seems to be based on how much the original artist gets paid for their time and effort vs how much time and effort it takes to learn a cover and play it. I've been in both cover and original bands, the cover band played 6-8 times a month, making as much as 150/person a night. The original band played maybe once a month, and got paid much less (embarrasingly less, no joke) for ten times the rehearsal time as the cover band. I never have understood the nihilistic attitude that original 'artists' have. 90% of the time the cover band was there just to have fun and play some tunes that we all enjoyed in our youth.... and I havent met a sobberish drummer yet that can play for 6 hours.... " I leave it all out there in the one set I have...", yeah... maybe so.... play Green Grass And High Tides and Freebird to open the 4th set one time then you can say something to me!

Plus a cover band makes more use of the neural pathways of those in the band and in the crowd (songs you have heard before™).  People show up to hear those songs again and to relive certain experiences.

Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 22, 2012, 04:11:50 PM
This one I just don't get.  There's a snobbery amongst original musicians towards cover bands.  At least in my area there is, and some things I read online.

I think part of it is the significant difference in how one works to get a crowd reaction.  A local "originals" act is going to have a tougher time because they have to :prove: each song... and that song is somebody's baby; it really hurts if the audience doesn't respond or responds negatively.  To work up enough acceptable material to play a 60 min set (let alone 3) is a significant feat.

Contrast with the cover act that is playing 3 sets of songs people already like.  While the selection process is easier, pulling off a variety of covers that are reasonably faithful to the originals is a lot of work, from working out the arrangement to actually having enough hands/technology to perform the song.  The originals act can choose to limit their production and arrangements to the instruments/people/technology available to them; the cover act needs for the songs to bear more than a passing resemblance to what the audience remembers and that requirement necessitates a different approach to the music as well as a different mindset.

In another post someone said one is "art" and the other "craft".  Not so much, methinks... how about "composer" and "entertainer"?  Think back to tin pan alley for a moment... experienced song writers turning out material for entertainers to present to the public.  Why?  Because *most* songwriters aren't gifted entertainers.  You'd be surprised how many hits are written by people that never set foot on a national stage, composing in their living rooms or studio.

Finally, some acts do both fairly well.  Van Halen made their initial mark with covers of Roy Orbison and other classic rock writers.  There is no shame in performing any music well.
Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Scott Shaw on February 22, 2012, 05:21:18 PM

   I think that original bands that hate cover bands are "hate'n" for one of two reasons... either they themselves can't play these covers well enough to get gigs   Or... they are just haters...

I've seen quite a few bands on Conan and SNL that might fit your quote to a t!
Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Bob Charest on February 22, 2012, 06:14:10 PM
I think part of it is the significant difference in how one works to get a crowd reaction.  A local "originals" act is going to have a tougher time because they have to :prove: each song... and that song is somebody's baby; it really hurts if the audience doesn't respond or responds negatively.  To work up enough acceptable material to play a 60 min set (let alone 3) is a significant feat.

Contrast with the cover act that is playing 3 sets of songs people already like.  While the selection process is easier, pulling off a variety of covers that are reasonably faithful to the originals is a lot of work, from working out the arrangement to actually having enough hands/technology to perform the song.  The originals act can choose to limit their production and arrangements to the instruments/people/technology available to them; the cover act needs for the songs to bear more than a passing resemblance to what the audience remembers and that requirement necessitates a different approach to the music as well as a different mindset.

In another post someone said one is "art" and the other "craft".  Not so much, methinks... how about "composer" and "entertainer"?  Think back to tin pan alley for a moment... experienced song writers turning out material for entertainers to present to the public.  Why?  Because *most* songwriters aren't gifted entertainers.  You'd be surprised how many hits are written by people that never set foot on a national stage, composing in their living rooms or studio.

Finally, some acts do both fairly well.  Van Halen made their initial mark with covers of Roy Orbison and other classic rock writers.  There is no shame in performing any music well.

Tim - you nailed it. Wish I'd responded as well!
Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: kristianjohnsen on February 22, 2012, 08:55:54 PM
Because one is art and the other is craft. You don't "create" covers.

When you go to listen to a big orchestra there's a good chance they're playing covers that were written by some stuffy old Austrian guys 300 years ago..I guess that means it's not art  ;)
Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Bill Hinds on February 22, 2012, 09:53:48 PM
This one I just don't get.  There's a snobbery amongst original musicians towards cover bands.  At least in my area there is, and some things I read online.

I think if they look deep enough it is jealously. I know, that probably will piss someone off. When I hear this they just can't seek to understand why someone would like to go see a cover band over an original because they just copied and did not create. Which then in turn pays better because the public "generally" support the cover/popular music more so the club owners pay because more butts in the venue = more available $'s.  Just to be clear, this is directed at the Local Music Scene.
  Of course I could be wrong. ::)

Bill
Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Lee Brenkman on February 22, 2012, 09:57:47 PM
When you go to listen to a big orchestra there's a good chance they're playing covers that were written by some stuffy old Austrian guys 300 years ago..I guess that means it's not art  ;)

I just recorded the audio for a master class given by jazz pianist Richie Beirach who would certainly disagree with that.

He said that the "job" of the classical musician was to consistently play the piece "the SAME but GREAT" and a jazz musician's goal was to continue to play something "DIFFERENT but GREAT".

As for the whole "art" vs "craft" thing, I have always considered myself a craftsman, not an artist.  My job is to facilitate the artist in presenting their music to an audience.

PS   The more you learn about some of those German and Austrian guys 300 years ago you find a lot of them FAR from "stuffy".   A lot of them were just hustling gigs and commissions, trying to make a living and MAYBE attain some degree of fame, just like musicians nowdays.
Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: brian maddox on February 22, 2012, 11:56:13 PM
i spent more of my 20s and 30s playing original music.  it was tough.  and took a lot of work.  but it was also artistically satisfying and i really enjoyed it.  i'm now in my 40s and play, essentially, in a cover band.  i play/work at a church and we play popular praise and worship music.  i have found that it is actually more difficult for me to play the 'covers' than it was to play the originals.  it's always nice to be able to write to one's strengths, and avoid one's weaknesses.  with covers you don't have that luxury.

but, it's also a bunch of fun to play covers.  and when we have a concert at our church, our little  church 'cover band' will get 700-800 people.  in my originals days, i'd have been overjoyed to see 50.
Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: kristianjohnsen on February 23, 2012, 04:42:44 AM
I just recorded the audio for a master class given by jazz pianist Richie Beirach who would certainly disagree with that.

He said that the "job" of the classical musician was to consistently play the piece "the SAME but GREAT" and a jazz musician's goal was to continue to play something "DIFFERENT but GREAT".

As for the whole "art" vs "craft" thing, I have always considered myself a craftsman, not an artist.  My job is to facilitate the artist in presenting their music to an audience.

PS   The more you learn about some of those German and Austrian guys 300 years ago you find a lot of them FAR from "stuffy".   A lot of them were just hustling gigs and commissions, trying to make a living and MAYBE attain some degree of fame, just like musicians nowdays.

It was tounge-in-cheek :) 

The cover bands vs original bands thing is basically a schoolyard popularity contest gone astray:  Most bands feel like if they can get people to pay to hear THEM play THEIR music, they've won.

I know many talented musicians who play in cover bands.  Some of them try to "sneak in" some originals during a set "to see how it works".  Sadly, it's a completely different crowd.  If a musician starts down the road of cover band muso it's very hard to change rails and become "known".  A better bet, if one were to consider things from a career standpoint only, would probably be to work as session muso for "Bands that have the name of the lead singer" and then go solo.  At least there will be a well-know name in the release-promo package...

PS.  Some of the "stuffy" guys were teenagers :)

Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Steve Hurt on February 23, 2012, 05:16:41 PM
This one I just don't get.  There's a snobbery amongst original musicians towards cover bands.  At least in my area there is, and some things I read online.

Original band all but one guy play someone else's song

Cover band all of them play someone else's song


Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Bob Charest on February 23, 2012, 10:19:53 PM
Original band all but one guy play someone else's song

Cover band all of them play someone else's song
Steve! That's the best yet! My wife and I are both laughing over that one - Thanks!
Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Felix Werner on February 24, 2012, 01:08:57 AM
Also, it doesn't require nearly as much, (if any), talent to do original music. You can't make a mistake in an original song. "I meant to do that".
Only very talented bands can play covers correctly. Anyone can play an original....Even a monkee.
Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Charlie Zureki on February 24, 2012, 03:15:41 AM
Also, it doesn't require nearly as much, (if any), talent to do original music. You can't make a mistake in an original song. "I meant to do that".
Only very talented bands can play covers correctly. Anyone can play an original....Even a monkee.

   Some of the Monkees were very talented.

   Hammer
Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Charlie Zureki on February 24, 2012, 03:20:33 AM
Original band all but one guy play someone else's song

Cover band all of them play someone else's song

 Steve, a part-time job writing for a Fortune Cookie company ?   ;)

  Hammer
Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 24, 2012, 10:46:05 AM
Also, it doesn't require nearly as much, (if any), talent to do original music. You can't make a mistake in an original song. "I meant to do that".
Only very talented bands can play covers correctly. Anyone can play an original....Even a monkee.

For the recordings, most of the Monkee's material was performed by session players.  The cast did the vox.  In live performance the band played on their own.

As Hammer points out, the individuals in the Monkees came to the show with existing talent and experience (although the latter wasn't consistent on the instruments they played for the show).

They had Boyce and Hart writing the songs, 2 of the best resident writers at Columbia-Screen Gems.  That doesn't hurt a bit...
Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Charlie Zureki on February 24, 2012, 10:55:54 AM
For the recordings, most of the Monkee's material was performed by session players.  The cast did the vox.  In live performance the band played on their own.

As Hammer points out, the individuals in the Monkees came to the show with existing talent and experience (although the latter wasn't consistent on the instruments they played for the show).

They had Boyce and Hart writing the songs, 2 of the best resident writers at Columbia-Screen Gems.  That doesn't hurt a bit...

  +1..

     and some of the Monkees became very good friends with many of the groups/musicians of the 1960s including at least one (Peter Tork) recording with with the Beatles.   

   Hammer
Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Steve Hurt on February 24, 2012, 11:00:27 AM
  +1..

     and some of the Monkees became very good friends with many of the groups/musicians of the 1960s including at least one (Peter Tork) recording with with the Beatles.   

   Hammer

It's my understanding that Stephen Stills auditioned for the Monkees, and was passed on because he had bad teeth.  Glad he ended up w/CSN(&Y) instead!
Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Chris Davis on February 24, 2012, 01:35:33 PM
For the recordings, most of the Monkee's material was performed by session players.  The cast did the vox.  In live performance the band played on their own.

As Hammer points out, the individuals in the Monkees came to the show with existing talent and experience (although the latter wasn't consistent on the instruments they played for the show).

They had Boyce and Hart writing the songs, 2 of the best resident writers at Columbia-Screen Gems.  That doesn't hurt a bit...

Very common, at least in the US during those years, was Hal Blaine's "Wrecking Crew".


Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on February 25, 2012, 02:37:42 PM
Pretty simple formula, and it's one I've based my band upon.  There's only 2 rules. 

In tune. 

On time.


And the musician that requires pitch correction (autotune) and a click track is neither in tune nor on time.
Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: kristianjohnsen on February 26, 2012, 05:29:12 AM
And the musician that requires pitch correction (autotune) and a click track is neither in tune nor on time.

But for some reason:  In demand  ;D
Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Lee Brenkman on February 26, 2012, 04:23:41 PM
But for some reason:  In demand  ;D

They look GOOD in the video?
Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Jason Rufo on February 27, 2012, 10:44:45 AM
This one I just don't get.  There's a snobbery amongst original musicians towards cover bands.  At least in my area there is, and some things I read online.

I've played in both. I was successful in both and honestly, I hate cover bands because it takes 0 talent to play someone else's songs. That's why they have karaoke. Original bands have it worse because even though they sound great, there is no market for what they're doing. Especially from where I'm from - Philadelphia.

I had a lot of fun being the front man for my cover band but it's not all that hard... Writing something that has to sound good and be catchy and be creative and have a hook.. thats where it's at. That's where the real skill as a musician is.

 
Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Steve Hurt on February 27, 2012, 10:49:05 AM
it takes 0 talent to play someone else's songs.

Disagree 1000%

Quote
Writing something that has to sound good and be catchy and be creative and have a hook.. thats where it's at. That's where the real skill as a <musician  song writer> is.
fixed
Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Steve Hurt on February 27, 2012, 10:55:39 AM
A general comment about pay differences - not a response to any one post:


Cover bands are playing for a paycheck, like working a job. 
Good cover bands get paid a basic wage every time they play.

Originals bands are playing the lotto.
They usually make nothing, on rare occasions they hit the jackpot.
Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Jason Rufo on February 27, 2012, 11:03:43 AM
A general comment about pay differences - not a response to any one post:


Cover bands are playing for a paycheck, like working a job. 
Good cover bands get paid a basic wage every time they play.

Originals bands are playing the lotto.
They usually make nothing, on rare occasions they hit the jackpot.

Sad but true.
Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Charlie Zureki on February 27, 2012, 11:12:10 AM
Disagree 1000%
fixed

  +1
  HAmmer
Title: Re: Why do original musicians hate cover bands?
Post by: Greg_Cameron on February 27, 2012, 01:41:35 PM
I've found it very interesting about the different demand & perception of cover bands depending on location. I grew up and live in So Cal/Los Angeles most of my life. Cover band outside of the bar band/wedding/high school dance scenes were not wanted and scorned in general. But after living in N. Cal for the past few years, it's apparent that the attitude is quite different up here and I do sound now for quite a few. And I have to say, I find a few of them quite good. Bands like Zeparella (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xH-_9cwdLug) are quite good (not to mention the women play hard and are smoking hot). There's a Floyd cover band from Reno (nearby) called Eclipse that also puts on a good show. I'm not much of a cover/tribute band guy, but I'd rather do sound for some of them compared to some not so great original acts.