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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Product Reviews => Topic started by: Mike Christy on January 23, 2013, 06:18:05 PM
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This is a review of the Noesis 3TX PA speaker designed by Jeff Permanian of JTR speakers. Jeff shipped me a demo pair of 3TX Noesis which allowed me to use them for a couple of gigs, compare them with my other speakers and capture some SMAART transfer function plots.
Details about the boxes can be found here on the JTR Speakers website: http://jtrspeakers.com/portable/noesis-3tx/ (http://jtrspeakers.com/portable/noesis-3tx/)
Build
The Noesis 3TX are front loaded loaded with 2 10" low frequency drivers and a BMS 4593 coax MF/HF driver mounted on a 60x40 horn. The 3TX has been tested to 178V (4000W at 8 ohms) which correlates to the recommended 2000W R.M.S. power specification.
The build of the Noesis cabinet is like the other JTR speakers that I am familiar with (Growler, Triple-8 and Triple-12), very solid build, line-x coated, quality hardware. I’ve own the Growlers and Triple-8s for several years and have gigged with them most weekends. Material has included rock, bluegrass, praise and DJ. I have been very pleased with the JTR speakers. There is no degradation of the build, materials or performance of those products. Id expect the Noesis to perform to the same standard.
Each 3TX weighs 49 pounds, and I understand that a new cabinet design will include enclosing the rear of the horn, so I speculate that it may add some weight, but at around 50 pounds I will not complain considering it is a solid birch wood box.
The Noesis speakers include metal pole cups for mounting on speaker poles. They slip on my K&M ratcheting poles easily, and become secure after tightening the ratchet snugly. I found because of the 3TX height (35 inches) that I did not need to extend the speaker pole from it’s first position.
Some may consider the Noesis 3TX speaker to be industrial looking since the grill does not completely cover the entire face of the cabinet. The front of the rotatable 60x40 thick resonate-free Constant Directivity aluminum horn is exposed. The port for the lows is large and is located at the front bottom of the cabinet. The front grill covering the 10s is black perforated steel. There are two metal NL4 connectors mid way up the back, and a single handle integrated into the top of the cabinet.
Auditioning
My auditioning and test setup was a laptop using an Indigo PCMCIA sound card for audio I/O, a QSC PL6 powering subs, a PLX3602 in stereo on tops and a Sabine NAV360 processor. Software was SMAART 6, hardware included an ART dual preamp, a custom signal splitter/feedback box, and a Behringer omni test mic.
For listening comparison I had my 90 degree JTR Triple-8 (loaded with 2 8" LF, 1 8" MF w/1" coax HF), my 75 degree EV QRX212/75, and the 60 degree JTR Noesis 3TX. I flattened out the processor leaving only a HPF at 100Hz. I aligned the crossover for each of the 3 speakers. Tests were performed with the speakers in passive mode.
Material was Steely Dan, rock and some other progressive jazz tracks. I set the speakers up in my driveway on an unusual warm Maine December afternoon.
Triple-8s
The Triple-8s which I use on many gigs sounded very good but can have a bit of high end sizzle that I usually EQ down, most times it is not obvious in a live mix but sometimes excessive sibilance does show up. My T-8s are an early version that do not have an improved crossover. I still like these boxes a lot, they are 90 degrees and for wide rooms are great, but have their limits. Ive only damaged the HF coils once, and that was during a packed house for a progressive jam band, not enough RFTG.
QRx212
Next listen was the QRx212s, I was a little surprised they sounded like they did - the high end seemed a little rolled off, this is subjective of course but I'm used to these boxes. Normally these are bi-amp but I had them in passive mode with no processing for this test. Even on axis they weren't what I was used to. It is possible bi-amping really does help these boxes. Ive used these boxes for several years mainly for DJ and outside rock gigs.
Noesis 3TX
Next I connected the 3TXs. The lows had a similar character as the Triple-8s, a natural sound, but with lower extension of the 10s. I found the mids and highs were more clear and natural compared to the EVs. Immediately I tried to analyze why: obviously it must be the BMS coax compression driver. The mid and high drivers are in the same assembly - physically very close - and the horn loads the mids down to 450Hz. I pushed the levels up and and walked out to my backyard, very nice clarity, no harshness, balanced response, just loud and clear and detailed. The big sound coming from this box really surprised me due to it small size.
So at this point I'm thinking the Noesis 3TX may replace my QRx212 at 30 pounds lighter, smaller, I can downsize my amp rack and use them for all my gigs. I will not have to swap out a QRx ground stack for a Triple-8 SOS rig. Use the same rig for all gigs, and for the larger gigs, stack multiple Growlers a side with multiple 3TX on each for wider coverage. But first lets use them at some gigs.
Gig Reviews
New Years Eve was an event with my regular 5-piece cover rock band. It took place in a function room with sloping high ceilings and linoleum flooring, 200 people in attendance. Ive done this room many times before with the T-8s and sometimes the QRxs. The Noesis performed wonderfully, no problem covering this room with 2 subs and 1 3TX a side What I found interesting was that small mix changes could be heard much more definitively with the 3TX, again I suppose because of the focused detail from the quality MF/HF coax driver.
I did not measure it but 3TX HF pattern does seem to drop off in the horizontal off axis steeper than the 212s, which made sense because the QRxs are stated to be 75 degrees and the Noesis are 60. I asked Jeff about the CD EQ being designed into the crossover and he confirmed it was. So, the bottom line is the 60 degree horn in the 3TX will be a benefit for problem rooms where one needs good pattern control. These speakers sounded very good in this room and the pattern helped keep the sound off the walls.
Home
Listening to the 3TX in a home theater environment was interesting. This is the first time I’ve brought PA speakers into the living room, but these speakers have such a small foot print and are unobtrusive. They sound Hi-Fi like HT speakers! We watched the Zeppelin Celebration Day DVD which really came across well on these boxes. It was impressive listening to Zep at an appropriate level and hearing the details of the mix. I have to contribute the transparency of the Noesis to the apparent high quality components and Jeff's excellent crossover design.
Further
The final acid test for the 3TXs was a DJ gig where I normally provide the QRxs. These events take place in a 70x70 multifunction room with hard linoleum floors and a high ceiling. Ive provided in this room many times in the past for both pro DJs and bands. Gear setup was NAV360, PL6 driving 4 Growlers 35Hz-95Hz, PLX3602 driving two 3TXs on poles, 100Hz-20Hz, with only small processing dips at 750Hz and 100Hz, everything else flat. Attendance was 200 to 250 young adults.
The 3TX performed better than my usual bi-amped QRx setup. I found the usual QRx low mid buildup gone, with the 3TX producing a very clear and defined top end that stayed even when the room filled up. In the past Ive found the QRxs seems to diminished some in the last octave with more bodies in the room. With the 3TX I could clearly pick out the hi-hat work in the DJ mixes, which many times Ive found buried in slush. I applied no additional EQ to the 3Tx throughout the evening, they sounded good straight out the gate. The mids and lows stayed defined and never were lost throughout the night.
Summary
The performance and sound quality of these speakers convinced me of the value and quality of the JTR Noesis 3TX. They exceed the performance of the 212s, have a smaller foot print and are 38% lighter, therefore I decided to purchase a set as new FOH mains. These are a high output, solid performing and great sounding box in a small package. Jeff has certainly hit his design target. Nice job Jeff.
I hope this review is helpful, I’ve tried to present the facts as well my impressions from a few tests and gigs as best I could. The demo boxes I review have been sold to another labster, I hope fully he finds them as excellent sounding as I have.
Measurement specifics during the DJ show had the amps intermittently tickling
-10db, I used a handheld SPL meter set C/Slow, measured approx 114db SPL @ 9 feet (passages w/o sub content) approx 96db SPL @ 50 feet (passages w/o sub content). With subs playing add +6db SPL. These are only estimates as I averaged the measurements by eye and committed them to memory.
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JTR Noesis 3TX, EV QRx212/75, JTR Triple-8, JTR Growler Subs.
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60x40 Horn.
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Multifunction Hall (DJ gig)
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Ground plane measurement (w/o snow!)
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Transfer Function.
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Mike,
I enjoyed your review and as an owner of the qrx212's which I use and appreciate you've certainly got my attention on these boxes. While I'm more than pleased with my EV's you're right on the money when you stated that "the high end seemed rolled off." Yes, I've noticed this myself and find that I need to add a little eq to those diminished frequencies. It's not that I'm looking for the more aggressive high end of jbl's however a little more presence in the upper range would be of benefit. I can especially appreciate the weight factor of the JTR's and when working solo my back could benefit from the weight reduction.
Could it be that a 60X40 horn will naturally give more of a focused high end than a 75 X 50 box simply due to it's tighter focus???
... and thanks also for the quality photos.
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Addendum: Just checked the specs on the JTR and the QRX 212's:
JTR: 80hz - 24khz +/-3db
QRX 212: 75hz - 16khz =/-3db
Answers a few questions regarding the more pronounced upper frequencies of the JTR.
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Could it be that a 60X40 horn will naturally give more of a focused high end than a 75 X 50 box simply due to it's tighter focus???
... and thanks also for the quality photos.
Hi John, Thank you for the vote of confidence. I think you are correct in one regard, the more focused pattern is on factor, but that BMS coax driver (mids and highs) seem to have one heck of an impact on the "intelligencey" frequencies.
Best,
Mike
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FWIW I like the "Industrial Look."
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Could it be that a 60X40 horn will naturally give more of a focused high end than a 75 X 50 box simply due to it's tighter focus???
... and thanks also for the quality photos.
It all depends on the ACTUAL pattern of coverage-not the stated number. This will vary with freq. Many horns get pretty narrow as the freq goes up. Polar plots or coverage angle charts are the best way to see how they actually perform.
If you look at the measured angles of coverage of many boxes you will find that the stated numbers do not even come close to the actual coverage pattern.
And in order to actually have that pattern to a usable low feq requires a large horn. The horn is the Noesis is larger than most and that is a good thing.
I have attached a very popular manufacturers measured data from a SINGLE BOX. Notice how the actual coverage pattern varies quite a bit-depending on the freq.
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60x40 Horn.
In that orientation, vertical oval throat, it's 40 wide x 60 high, no?
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I would assume so.
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I would assume so.
Possibly, but since they're rotatable horns it's irrelevant. The real question is which orientation matches the lows at crossover best?
Mac
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Possibly, but since they're rotatable horns it's irrelevant.
This is why it's relevant.
3TX HF pattern does seem to drop off in the horizontal off axis steeper than the 212s,
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In that orientation, vertical oval throat, it's 40 wide x 60 high, no?
Dan, the horn is installed so that it is 60 degrees in the horizontal.
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Dan, the horn is installed so that it is 60 degrees in the horizontal.
The vertical oval is the wide orientation? Interesting. Is there some sort of lens effect?
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This is an update to using the 3TX speakers at a couple of gigs. First off I received the new enclosed-horn cabinets from Jeff, much more professional and finished look. The demos I had went to Dan, I will not speak for him, but do understand he is very very pleased with their performance.
One of the last gigs I had with the 3TXs was a pep rally in a gym. I had no apprehension bringing 1 3TX over 2 subs for this. The program consisted of ipod playback, announcements, skits, beat-boxing, speeches... and slam dunk contests.
Power on a single AC outlet, 2 PL236 bridged for tops, and one PL6 for subs. Max signal of -20db on amps. Tablet mixing from bleachers. System performed flawlessly - powerful, clear and loud presentation of all material. Notice mics were positioned out front of the stacks most times, but somewhat in the null - still, no feedback issues (AKG D5 mics).
The Noesis 60 degree pattern really helped direct sound on this setup (could have used 40 I suppose, but did not think to rotate horns). I would say at times it was could have actually been too loud. Everyone pleased, especially the boss (Coach Rob). Sometimes Im still surprised and impressed at the Growlers' performance, I could feel the floor and bleachers vibrate across the court on music tracks.
Best,
Mike
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I don't think rotating the horns would have been good. Would have put too much sound on the ceiling.
Glad they are working. I am almost jealous. :-)
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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I don't think rotating the horns would have been good. Would have put too much sound on the ceiling.
Glad they are working. I am almost jealous. :-)
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Dont be jealous, Im broke now.
Good point on the rotation, agreed, but it probably would not have mattered, considering the diffused field, but I still would have liked to have listened to both orientaitons.
Mike
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This is an update to using the 3TX speakers at a couple of gigs. First off I received the new enclosed-horn cabinets from Jeff, much more professional and finished look...
Best,
Mike
I was waiting for that... I didn't particularly like the open-horn look. Do you have pics of the full grill speakers?
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I was waiting for that... I didn't particularly like the open-horn look. Do you have pics of the full grill speakers?
Reg, this is all I have of the new ones, hopefully they are helpful - Mike
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Addendum: Just checked the specs on the JTR and the QRX 212's:
JTR: 80hz - 24khz +/-3db
QRX 212: 75hz - 16khz =/-3db
Answers a few questions regarding the more pronounced upper frequencies of the JTR.
FWIW- The QRX is a little "dull" sounding out of the box, but with a little EQ up top, they do liven up. I've never had a bad experience with the QRX.
Evan
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FWIW- The QRX is a little "dull" sounding out of the box, but with a little EQ up top, they do liven up. I've never had a bad experience with the QRX.
Evan
Agree, they need that CD horn EQ added, where as the 3TX needs nothing up top. We will see how I feel about them in a year.... especially how my old back feels.
Best,
Mike
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What am I missing in the photos? I really don't see much of the difference in the aesthetics of the older model vs. the updated.
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FWIW- The QRX is a little "dull" sounding out of the box, but with a little EQ up top, they do liven up. I've never had a bad experience with the QRX.
Evan,
Evan, I've never had a bad experience with the QRX boxes as a matter of fact I feel that the 212 cabinet is one of the finest out there.
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What am I missing in the photos? I really don't see much of the difference in the aesthetics of the older model vs. the updated.
Can't see the different in my photos, you would have to go to the JTR site and look on the forum there to see the prototype photos.
Mike
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What am I missing in the photos? I really don't see much of the difference in the aesthetics of the older model vs. the updated.
Maybe this will help. I attached a pic from a get together we had late last year.
From left to right:
- Noesis 2AX on top of an Orbit Shifter
- Noesis 3TX on top of an Orbit Shifter
- T12-X on top of an amp rack
The N3TX is 40 ish pounds.
The T12-X is 74 pounds and is almost identical in size to a EV QRX212
The size difference is more apparent in person than it is in the pic.
The output of the N3TX is impressive, regardless of size.
Factor in size and the impressiveness factor goes up another tier.
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here is the n3TX prototype:
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j123/racingxtc7/Noesis3TX_back2.jpg)
Here is the production version:
(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j123/racingxtc7/Noesis3TXside.jpg)
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I will need a bit of a clarification about the use of that specific horn driver combo. Spec says the xover is 400Hz, on the other hand the horn is 18sound 2064 that has a low cut off at 800Hz. And the manufacturer is not recomending it to be used under 800Hz. Am i missing something here?
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I will need a bit of a clarification about the use of that specific horn driver combo. Spec says the xover is 400Hz, on the other hand the horn is 18sound 2064 that has a low cut off at 800Hz. And the manufacturer is not recomending it to be used under 800Hz. Am i missing something here?
You are miss a few things. The horn isn’t a XR2064 however the horn I’m using is of similar size. The horn is 180mm deep (7.08”) and horns have directivity down to ¼ wavelength which is 416hz. The crossover point (-6db down) on the production units ended up at 450hz. The horn starts losing its 40x60 coverage pattern below 1667hz (one wave length) however due to its design, having a square mouth and nearly equal distant path horizontally and vertically, it is well behaved as the coverage pattern gradually becomes omni unlike rectangular horns with uneven path lengths. The horn is larger than most if its competitors.
The compression drive I’m using is the BMS 4593 which is a coaxial compression driver. It is rated at 118db at 1 watt on a 40x20 horn however I’m measuring 115db at 1 watt (15db padding in crossover) on the 40x60 horn. The power handling is rated at 150w aes and 1000w peak which means it’s capable of 136db continuous and 145db peak. The Noesis 3TX has a tremendous amount of head room giving it ultra low distortion.
http://bmsspeakers.com/index.php?id=4593nd_overview
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Jeff, we use BMS exclusively on our top boxes so i am quite aware of what you use. Just the horn looked as the 18sound horn, which can not load that driver down to 400Hz. And the 18sound horn is bigger then your, not smaller.
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I will be receiving another pair of 3TXs next week. After a year under my belt with them there is nothing I can complain about. The additional two will give me appropriate coverage on wide venues and some outdoors events I having coming up - after the snow melts, if it ever does by June...
My most recent gig with them was a Beatles sound-a-like band performing in one of those old music halls/converted movie theater venues. The mid/hi coax on the horns brought the vocal clarity to the very rear of the theater nicely. For a "ground stacked" rig, I could not be happier.
Mike
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I will be receiving another pair of 3TXs next week. After a year under my belt with them there is nothing I can complain about. The additional two will give me appropriate coverage on wide venues and some outdoors events I having coming up - after the snow melts, if it ever does by June...
My most recent gig with them was a Beatles sound-a-like band performing in one of those old music halls/converted movie theater venues. The mid/hi coax on the horns brought the vocal clarity to the very rear of the theater nicely. For a "ground stacked" rig, I could not be happier.
Mike
I'm very happy with mine also. Vocal clarity is great, doesn't fall apart at high volume. The only thing I want is 2 more.
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I will be receiving another pair of 3TXs next week. After a year under my belt with them there is nothing I can complain about. The additional two will give me appropriate coverage on wide venues and some outdoors events I having coming up - after the snow melts, if it ever does by June...
My most recent gig with them was a Beatles sound-a-like band performing in one of those old music halls/converted movie theater venues. The mid/hi coax on the horns brought the vocal clarity to the very rear of the theater nicely. For a "ground stacked" rig, I could not be happier.
Mike
Was the band you worked with called Sixtyfour? I'm related to the bass players wife.
Douglas R. Allen
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Was the band you worked with called Sixtyfour? I'm related to the bass players wife.
Douglas R. Allen
Nope, All Together Now, not a look a like, def sound a like.
Seems theres quite a few of these B bands around...
Mike
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I'm very happy with mine also. Vocal clarity is great, doesn't fall apart at high volume. The only thing I want is 2 more.
I've been wanting a pair or two for sometime now but keep spending money on something else (car repairs, kids, etc.) I was talking to someone about these and made a comparison in terms of SPL to EAW NTL720 line array boxes I use. It takes at least 3, if not 4 of the NTL720s to equal the output of one 3TX. At street price of $4K per NTL720, it makes the 3TX an incredible bargain (granted they're different beasts and the NTL720 is powered.)
Jeff, if you're listening, put the horn in the middle like the 2AX, add some hardware and turn this puppy into a line array!
JR
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Jeff, if you're listening, put the horn in the middle like the 2AX, add some hardware and turn this puppy into a line array!
You're joking, right?
Typed on a virtual keyboard.
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Jeff, if you're listening, put the horn in the middle like the 2AX, add some hardware and turn this puppy into a line array!
JR
You need to do a little reading up on how line arrays "work" and some of the science behind them.
Sticking a wide coverage horn between 2 woofers is NOT one of the parameters or design goals.
But to some people it is not the actual performance that matters-only what it looks like-to each his own.
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You need to do a little reading up on how line arrays "work" and some of the science behind them.
Sticking a wide coverage horn between 2 woofers is NOT one of the parameters or design goals.
But to some people it is not the actual performance that matters-only what it looks like-to each his own.
Ivan, of course I don't mean for him to put a wide coverage horn like what he has on his point source boxes. That would not make it a line array cabinet at all. I meant load the mids and compression driver into a suitable horn for a line array format box.
I just wish he would make a line array cabinet. His own design. I would buy it.
For the record, I own a 3-dozen EAW line array boxes, a bunch of SLS line columns, four each of your (or Tom's) GH-60 and SH46. I have an understanding of how a line array versus point source works. But I do not know how to classify the GH60.
JR
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For the record, I own a 3-dozen EAW line array boxes, a bunch of SLS line columns, four each of your (or Tom's) GH-60 and SH46. I have an understanding of how a line array versus point source works. But I do not know how to classify the GH60.
JR
The GH 60 has a pattern unlike anything that I am aware of. Because of the amplitude shading the energy is much louder in the "hot" part of the horn-which is NOT facing straight forward-but rather 20° down-than the lower part of the pattern.
This does not work for every application-but in certain situations (like at lambeau field-Greenbay packers) it IS what makes that system work very well.
Loudspeakers are simply tools-and the same tools is not right for every application and different applications need different tools.
That is the reason I always say you have to "define the target" THEN figure out what is the proper tool for the job.