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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Subwoofer Forum => Topic started by: Johnny Diaz on July 03, 2011, 01:11:41 PM

Title: Bass Maximizers
Post by: Johnny Diaz on July 03, 2011, 01:11:41 PM
How many people use bass maximizers?  I went to a reggae concert a few weeks back and the bass was intense.  They had a bunch of Yorkville LS1208 and it just had a different feel in your face deep attack to it. I have heard LS1208s before but never like this.  Any idea how they achieved this?
Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: Paul Dershem on July 03, 2011, 01:33:06 PM
You might want to look at Maxxbass:
http://waves.com/content.aspx?id=92
Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: Johnny Diaz on July 03, 2011, 01:50:36 PM
You might want to look at Maxxbass:
http://waves.com/content.aspx?id=92

Any experience  or heard any comments on this product?
Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: Ivan Beaver on July 03, 2011, 04:54:49 PM
Any experience  or heard any comments on this product?
I have limited experience with it. But while the units can fool the ear into thinking it is hearing tones you are not actually hearing. They don't allow you to actually feel those notes
Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: Mac Kerr on July 03, 2011, 05:09:17 PM
Any experience  or heard any comments on this product?

Not personally, but a little searching found THIS (http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?SQ=0&t=search&srch=Maxxbass&btn_submit=Forum+Search&field=subject&forum_limiter=&search_logic=AND&sort_order=DESC&author=).

Mac
Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: duane massey on July 03, 2011, 06:05:40 PM
If you have a real system, properly set up, they are totally useless. If you have a BS system, they may give you the impression that you are getting a little bit more "boom", but it's somewhat like putting a brown bag over a pig; it's still a pig....
Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: Doug Fowler on July 04, 2011, 02:23:10 AM
If you have a real system, properly set up, they are totally useless. If you have a BS system, they may give you the impression that you are getting a little bit more "boom", but it's somewhat like putting a brown bag over a pig; it's still a pig....

Actually, it's far from useless although I can easily see inexperience operators using it to attempt to compensate for a weak system.   I have yet to use it as an insert.

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/335782/35282/0///632/#msg_335782

Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: Alan Sledzieski on July 04, 2011, 10:40:27 AM
Actually, it's far from useless although I can easily see inexperience operators using it to attempt to compensate for a weak system.   I have yet to use it as an insert.

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/335782/35282/0///632/#msg_335782

Where is the best place to put the 107, main out of the desk?, low out of the driverack?
Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: Greg_Cameron on July 04, 2011, 11:05:50 AM
There's no substitute for a true bass maximizer (http://www.mccauleysound.com/product_overview.cfm?ID=2275).

Greg
Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: Chris Carpenter on July 05, 2011, 06:40:37 PM
Where is the best place to put the 107, main out of the desk?, low out of the driverack?

If you went that route, I believe you would want it before the driverack, as it generates frequencies that may end up going to your mid drivers.

OTOH, if you have a driverack, you can play with the subharmonic synth. It is sort of the opposite of the maxxbass in that it generates lower frequencies rather than higher ones. Depending on how your system is set up, you may prefer that. Also, if you have the lower end driverack, you already have it in your rig.
Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: John Chiara on July 11, 2011, 08:03:02 PM
If you have a real system, properly set up, they are totally useless. If you have a BS system, they may give you the impression that you are getting a little bit more "boom", but it's somewhat like putting a brown bag over a pig; it's still a pig....

Actually, it's far from useless although I can easily see inexperience operators using it to attempt to compensate for a weak system.   I have yet to use it as an insert.

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/335782/35282/0///632/#msg_335782

I just bought 2 more on Ebay for less than $130 each. They work best with reflex boxes. I use it set to near the lowest frequency to attempt to add the impression of an extra 1/2 octave or so on the bottom.
Always helps and in some setups makes an amazing difference in the "heft" of the system. For small wedding and club systems it's a no brainer..IMO. I demo mine to clients and let them push the bypass switch...always generates a similar facial expression. Would be great for reggae setups I would think. I sold my first unit to a reggae bass player for his rig.....he wouldn't sell it back for double the money. YMMV
Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: Tracy Garner on July 11, 2011, 10:52:07 PM
Actually, it's far from useless although I can easily see inexperience operators using it to attempt to compensate for a weak system.   I have yet to use it as an insert.

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/335782/35282/0///632/#msg_335782


I just bought 2 more on Ebay for less than $130 each. They work best with reflex boxes. I use it set to near the lowest frequency to attempt to add the impression of an extra 1/2 octave or so on the bottom.
Always helps and in some setups makes an amazing difference in the "heft" of the system. For small wedding and club systems it's a no brainer..IMO. I demo mine to clients and let them push the bypass switch...always generates a similar facial expression. Would be great for reggae setups I would think. I sold my first unit to a reggae bass player for his rig.....he wouldn't sell it back for double the money. YMMV

I've used one in-line out of a DJ mixer into my system. I think it works better than using the comp/limiter solutions some use to try to tame the DJ signal. It also helps when the DJ has a lot of different types of MP3 files and they may not have the control from one song to the next. It appears to bring back some of the bass that is lost with on the low bitrate files.

One of the best bass sounds I "think" I ever heard with bass enhancement was with Burning Spear at 930 club in DC when they were using the EAW System. The guy had one of those SWR bass rigs with that special aural exciter/type sub harmonic synth circuit. It just 'sounded' great. I don't think the raw PA would have produced that sound.

Over the last six months, I've been working completely without it and I don't think my system sounds worse without it. I don't think it sounded better with it - just different.
Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: Jason Bruton on July 12, 2011, 02:07:17 AM
How many people use bass maximizers?  I went to a reggae concert a few weeks back and the bass was intense.  They had a bunch of Yorkville LS1208 and it just had a different feel in your face deep attack to it. I have heard LS1208s before but never like this.  Any idea how they achieved this?
Engineer knew what they were doing? But if you need gear, Peavey Kosmos.
Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: Jon Geissinger on August 09, 2011, 05:17:41 PM
I was under the impression that bass enhancers should not be used with subs in that you could destroy speakers/drivers inadvertantly. My thoughts are I use it when I don't have my sub(s) with me and some low end enhancement is required. I don't overuse it, just us it to tweak.
I build all my own equipment so I don't need to blow anything up!
Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: Chris Carpenter on August 09, 2011, 05:54:05 PM
I was under the impression that bass enhancers should not be used with subs in that you could destroy speakers/drivers inadvertantly. My thoughts are I use it when I don't have my sub(s) with me and some low end enhancement is required. I don't overuse it, just us it to tweak.
I build all my own equipment so I don't need to blow anything up!

You can destroy MF drivers with over-extension just as easily (more easily?) that LF drivers. Also, depending on the type of bass enhancer you use, you may actually decrease the level of extension at a perceived level of output (MaxxBass, for example).

Damage could occur if you overuse a subharmonic synthesizer after your crossover and limiters (or just crank the level), but that's just bad practice.
Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: John Chiara on August 15, 2011, 07:38:34 PM
Actually, it's far from useless although I can easily see inexperience operators using it to attempt to compensate for a weak system.   I have yet to use it as an insert.

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/335782/35282/0///632/#msg_335782


I just bought 2 more on Ebay for less than $130 each. They work best with reflex boxes. I use it set to near the lowest frequency to attempt to add the impression of an extra 1/2 octave or so on the bottom.
Always helps and in some setups makes an amazing difference in the "heft" of the system. For small wedding and club systems it's a no brainer..IMO. I demo mine to clients and let them push the bypass switch...always generates a similar facial expression. Would be great for reggae setups I would think. I sold my first unit to a reggae bass player for his rig.....he wouldn't sell it back for double the money. YMMV

New report from a real world setup..last week did a small outdoor amphitheater..seats about 800 or so. 4 PAS CB2 subs...4 Community SLS960's. With the Maxxbass dialed in to about 75 of max set on the lowest frequency setting...classic L/R setup....modern country band. Low end was VERY impressive at outdoor concert level. Full and beefy sounding..running on old Carver amps...all on 1 20amp circuit. Hitting bypass changed the whole feel of the system...and not in a satisfying way. Well worth it in these types of situations.
Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: George Friedman-Jimenez on August 16, 2011, 12:23:55 AM
The MaxxBass 107 is stereo and I generally run mono. Is there a (cheaper) mono version available?
Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: Paul Dershem on August 16, 2011, 01:34:27 AM
I just ordered a Maxxbass 102 to try; it was $40 plus shipping. The only downside appears to be that it uses RCA connectors:

http://waves.com/Content.aspx?id=337
Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: John Chiara on August 16, 2011, 06:00:12 PM
I just ordered a Maxxbass 102 to try; it was $40 plus shipping. The only downside appears to be that it uses RCA connectors:

http://waves.com/Content.aspx?id=337

RCA and probably -10db..that is a bigger problem without some kind of compensation.

John
Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: Johnny Diaz on August 17, 2011, 07:41:18 AM
New report from a real world setup..last week did a small outdoor amphitheater..seats about 800 or so. 4 PAS CB2 subs...4 Community SLS960's. With the Maxxbass dialed in to about 75 of max set on the lowest frequency setting...classic L/R setup....modern country band. Low end was VERY impressive at outdoor concert level. Full and beefy sounding..running on old Carver amps...all on 1 20amp circuit. Hitting bypass changed the whole feel of the system...and not in a satisfying way. Well worth it in these types of situations.

John,

Did it actually give you more bass or the illusion of it?
Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: Brian Ehlers on August 17, 2011, 05:54:42 PM
Did it actually give you more bass or the illusion of it?
As I understand it, the entire principle of the Maxxbass unit is to give the illusion of more bass without requiring the speakers to go any louder down low.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.  Pipe organ makers have done this for centuries.  And the manufacturers of small speakers often tune their boxes with a small hump in-band to make it sound like they extend lower than they really do.
Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: Daniel Lozada on August 23, 2011, 01:35:02 AM
I would like to give one of the MaxxBass units a try on my LS808s...what model should I look into? All DJ work, running 4 LS808s under 4 E15s.
Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: Brad Weber on August 23, 2011, 08:30:08 AM
As I understand it, the entire principle of the Maxxbass unit is to give the illusion of more bass without requiring the speakers to go any louder down low.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.  Pipe organ makers have done this for centuries.  And the manufacturers of small speakers often tune their boxes with a small hump in-band to make it sound like they extend lower than they really do.
That's what I find so ironic about how many people apply these devices and what they think they are doing.  The way the MaxxBass works is actually to reduce the low frequency signal levels and create and/or increase the higher frequency harmonics that would be associated with that low frequency content.  So you actually get less physical low frequency output while adding to the higher frequency signal content, which may increase the mains signal level and thus require that you reduce the mains level to compensate.

So if you have a system with excess mains headroom and insufficient low frequency capability then it may help give the perception of greater low frequency output, but it is not really providing greater low frequency output, in fact it is normally reducing the low frequency content.
Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: Iain.Macdonald on August 23, 2011, 09:32:36 AM
That's what I find so ironic about how many people apply these devices and what they think they are doing.  The way the MaxxBass works is actually to reduce the low frequency signal levels and create and/or increase the higher frequency harmonics that would be associated with that low frequency content.  So you actually get less physical low frequency output while adding to the higher frequency signal content, which may increase the mains signal level and thus require that you reduce the mains level to compensate.

So if you have a system with excess mains headroom and insufficient low frequency capability then it may help give the perception of greater low frequency output, but it is not really providing greater low frequency output, in fact it is normally reducing the low frequency content.


Err not quite. Remember energy distribution of fundamentals and harmonics. Below is the PSD of a 50Hz signal, and the "Maxxed" version. Note the level difference. That's why this system is so attractive to consumer equipment manufacturers, who use limited capability drivers.

Iain.
Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: Mike Christy on August 23, 2011, 09:44:25 AM
Err not quite. Remember energy distribution of fundamentals and harmonics. Below is the PSD of a 50Hz signal, and the "Maxxed" version. Note the level difference. That's why this system is so attractive to consumer equipment manufacturers, who use limited capability drivers.

Iain.

This looks suspiciously like sub harmonic (speaker) distortion and the frequency range of the mud I am always trying to clear up...
Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: Chris Carpenter on August 23, 2011, 01:24:23 PM
This looks suspiciously like sub harmonic (speaker) distortion and the frequency range of the mud I am always trying to clear up...
It is actually the opposite of subharmonics; it is harmonics of the fundamental. While the range amplified is in a trouble zone for LF content, I find that, used properly, it doesn't really add mud. Having said that, if you jack up some of the wrong parameters, it will most definitely add mud (sortof makes it sound like a heavily pumping compressor).
Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: Mike Christy on August 23, 2011, 02:05:11 PM
It is actually the opposite of subharmonics; it is harmonics of the fundamental. While the range amplified is in a trouble zone for LF content, I find that, used properly, it doesn't really add mud. Having said that, if you jack up some of the wrong parameters, it will most definitely add mud (sortof makes it sound like a heavily pumping compressor).

Lost in translation: Sub harmonics as in natural harmonic distortion from subwoofer cabs when they are driven hard, you cant get away from it, always a higher frequency, not below the fundamental like a synth.

Mike
Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: Chris Carpenter on August 23, 2011, 05:15:20 PM
Lost in translation: Sub harmonics as in natural harmonic distortion from subwoofer cabs when they are driven hard, you cant get away from it, always a higher frequency, not below the fundamental like a synth.

Mike
Ah, so sub harmonics, as opposed to subharmonics  ;). Yeah, that's basically the idea behind it. Strangely, though, I find that maxxbass doesn't create so much of what I consider "mud", though I may have a different definition.
Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: Brad Weber on August 23, 2011, 05:20:12 PM
That's what I find so ironic about how many people apply these devices and what they think they are doing.  The way the MaxxBass works is actually to reduce the low frequency signal levels and create and/or increase the higher frequency harmonics that would be associated with that low frequency content.  So you actually get less physical low frequency output while adding to the higher frequency signal content, which may increase the mains signal level and thus require that you reduce the mains level to compensate.

So if you have a system with excess mains headroom and insufficient low frequency capability then it may help give the perception of greater low frequency output, but it is not really providing greater low frequency output, in fact it is normally reducing the low frequency content.


Err not quite. Remember energy distribution of fundamentals and harmonics. Below is the PSD of a 50Hz signal, and the "Maxxed" version. Note the level difference. That's why this system is so attractive to consumer equipment manufacturers, who use limited capability drivers.

Iain.
I'm not clear what you are disagreeing with in what I said.  I said that MaxxBass reduces the level of the low frequency fundamental and increases the level of, or introduces, the associated higher frequency harmonics.  In the charts you attached the processed signal apparently reduces the level of the 50Hz fundamental by around 17dB or so while introducing additional signal content at 100Hz, 150Hz and 200Hz, which would sum (assuming the signals to be in phase) with the levels of the natural harmonics.  This means that if the audio includes a 50Hz fundamental then with MaxxBass you may reduce the level of the 50Hz fundamental you have to reproduce significantly but you will also likely see an increase the levels in the 100-200Hz harmonics.  So your system has to handle those greater higher frequency levels and you'd seem to essentially be taking the 'load' of reproducing low frequency signals and using psychoacoustiocs to move that load up higher in frequency.
Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: Mike Christy on August 23, 2011, 06:02:05 PM
Ah, so sub harmonics, as opposed to subharmonics  ;). Yeah, that's basically the idea behind it. Strangely, though, I find that maxxbass doesn't create so much of what I consider "mud", though I may have a different definition.

Interesting, could be because the subs are being not driven hard into that harmonic distortion mode, and nice sounding even order harmonics are being introduced by the MB.

Guess I need a waves plug in now... GAS!  ;D
Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: John Chiara on May 17, 2012, 07:36:30 PM
Interesting, could be because the subs are being not driven hard into that harmonic distortion mode, and nice sounding even order harmonics are being introduced by the MB.

Guess I need a waves plug in now... GAS!  ;D

Bingo!!
Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: Tracy Garner on May 17, 2012, 07:53:09 PM
Bingo!!

I hear Dave Rat uses an old DBX120 for certain "effects"...
Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: John Chiara on May 17, 2012, 11:43:21 PM
I hear Dave Rat uses an old DBX120 for certain "effects"...

The Maxxbass doesn't get used by me for effects. It radically changes the " heft" and feel of systems using reflex subs in a way nothing else has. Plus has the added benefit of not upping the power requirements. Big, thick, hefty low end available in all power situations is part of my signature sound. I can make wedding gigs sound like a rock concert so when the band goes into "Livin' on a Prayer" it sounds real instead of stupid and whimpy. Maxxbass makes that possible... No brainer for me, just wish I bought 20 of them when they blew them out.
Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 18, 2012, 10:28:10 AM
I hear Dave Rat uses an old DBX120 for certain "effects"...

I still own a dbx 500 "Professional Disco Boombox" sub-harmonic synthesizer.

It's important to understand that these products were developed back when vinyl was king and CDs were a "real soon now" technology... and analog cutting and playback technology meant that making records with <40Hz waves at any level was difficult or impossible for most consumer uses.  Sure, you could cut the grooves and get maybe 16 minutes per side, but at the level the consumer expected the stylus would jump out of the groove on playback.

It was this problem that dbx addressed with sub-harmonics.

Now that digital recordings are the norm and specialized vinyl releases don't have the same user constraints as mass consumer releases did 30 years ago, the sub harmonic synthesis method has become moot as a *system* enhancement.  I've used the old 500 as an insert or effect a couple of times in this decade, but that's about it.
Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: Mike Pyle on May 18, 2012, 06:58:01 PM
just wish I bought 20 of them when they blew them out.

Do you find that they have a pretty high noise floor? The two I have do, except when bypassed.
Title: Re: Bass Maximizers
Post by: John Chiara on May 21, 2012, 04:38:55 PM
Do you find that they have a pretty high noise floor? The two I have do, except when bypassed.

That is true. I have 4 devices in my drive chain and it works better depending on where it is inserted. I usually bypass it during breaks and while using playback music.