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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board => Topic started by: Rufus Crowder on January 07, 2014, 09:58:37 AM
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Getting ready to decide on purchasing two (2) Danley TH212 subs for a fixed install and would like some feedback from those that have used these before I place the order. The install will be under a stage at a church. Contemporary Christian rock music is played and yes the db's get up there at times!
This is the only sub with dimensions that will fit in the space provided. Anything else would have to placed to the sides of the stage.
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Getting ready to decide on purchasing two (2) Danley TH212 subs for a fixed install and would like some feedback from those that have used these before I place the order. The install will be under a stage at a church. Contemporary Christian rock music is played and yes the db's get up there at times!
This is the only sub with dimensions that will fit in the space provided. Anything else would have to placed to the sides of the stage.
Have you considered flying them? If its possible to do so you will have more even coverage in the room. The 212 is probably my favorite sub on the market.
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Getting ready to decide on purchasing two (2) Danley TH212 subs for a fixed install and would like some feedback from those that have used these before I place the order. The install will be under a stage at a church. Contemporary Christian rock music is played and yes the db's get up there at times!
This is the only sub with dimensions that will fit in the space provided. Anything else would have to placed to the sides of the stage.
I have four of them. You will not be disappointed. I can do upwards of 1000 people outdoors with stunning results. They will get low and loud. I drive mine with a single PL380
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I have four of them. You will not be disappointed. I can do upwards of 1000 people outdoors with stunning results. They will get low and loud. I drive mine with a single PL380
Wow, with one amp and outdoors!
@Benjamin...The trim height of the ceiling would prohibit flying these which is why the stage height is so low too. We had to make some concessions during the design phase. Our mid-high speakers are JBL VRX's that we could only do two in the array due to sight line limitations of the projection screens.
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Getting ready to decide on purchasing two (2) Danley TH212 subs for a fixed install and would like some feedback from those that have used these before I place the order. The install will be under a stage at a church. Contemporary Christian rock music is played and yes the db's get up there at times!
This is the only sub with dimensions that will fit in the space provided. Anything else would have to placed to the sides of the stage.
Put the exit opening on the small side (you can move the exit to the large side if needed for different applications) and place the openings together and you will be good to go.
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Put the exit opening on the small side (you can move the exit to the large side if needed for different applications) and place the openings together and you will be good to go.
Rufus...note that Ivan is suggesting you install the subs together, not separated left and right.
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Rufus...note that Ivan is suggesting you install the subs together, not separated left and right.
Of course that goes for subs in general.
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Of course that goes for subs in general.
True Ivan but there are many who don't seem to grasp the concept...
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True Ivan but there are many who don't seem to grasp the concept...
Hence the need for BASIC sound education.
Our industry is full of misconceptions/falsehoods/lies/poor specs and so forth.
The sad thing is that most of the people who would benefit from "sound 101" are the very ones who already think they know it all and would not take the class-------------------
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Hence the need for BASIC sound education.
Our industry is full of misconceptions/falsehoods/lies/poor specs and so forth.
The sad thing is that most of the people who would benefit from "sound 101" are the very ones who already think they know it all and would not take the class-------------------
Something I learned about this biz is that I ALWAYS have something new to learn ...even after 30+ years.
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Rufus...note that Ivan is suggesting you install the subs together, not separated left and right.
Yeah, I got that, however, that may not be doable in this room so we will have to suffer a little:(
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Yeah, I got that, however, that may not be doable in this room so we will have to suffer a little:(
With most sound situations-there is what would be "correct" or ideal.
And then there is what you "can do". That can be anything from physical location of loudspeakers-to price and so forth.
It is all a matter of compromise-and in some cases "less than ideal" is just fine. It may not be "perfect" but does the job.
You have to do what you have to do-or can do.
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With most sound situations-there is what would be "correct" or ideal.
And then there is what you "can do". That can be anything from physical location of loudspeakers-to price and so forth.
It is all a matter of compromise-and in some cases "less than ideal" is just fine. It may not be "perfect" but does the job.
You have to do what you have to do-or can do.
Ivan are the 212 and 412 subs smaller versions of the 812?
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Ivan are the 212 and 412 subs smaller versions of the 812?
They are all tapped horns-so they have that in common.
THe TH412 and TH812 use the same drivers. The TH212 uses a slightly less powerful woofer (2dB power) because the ones in the 412 and 812 won't fit.
The TH412 has a longer horn path than the 212 and the TH812 has a still longer path.
In all of them the drivers are in a kinda "push pull" configuration. This is done to be able to get the drivers physically closer together so they have a closer source of origin.
The overall physical layouts are different. Only the TH212 (of those models) has a selectable physical output location for different uses.locations.
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...The trim height of the ceiling would prohibit flying these which is why the stage height is so low too. We had to make some concessions during the design phase. Our mid-high speakers are JBL VRX's that we could only do two in the array due to sight line limitations of the projection screens.
Isn't it a shame that "sound quality" is usually the last thing that gets considered when designing a sound stage?
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Yeah, I got that, however, that may not be doable in this room so we will have to suffer a little:(
That's not an uncommon problem. :(
Is there a way you can get by with just one sub even if it's installed off centre?
I did a job in a church with just one sub, installed in a plenum under the stage near one wall.
Worked great!
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Put the exit opening on the small side (you can move the exit to the large side if needed for different applications) and place the openings together and you will be good to go.
Ivan, I've never used these subs but have always been curious about the difference which side the port is on makes on performance. You know, like in half space (out doors on the ground) standing up vs. laying down. I know you guys measure everything accurately. I am curious.... Although I am sure the difference is not large or you wouldn't sell it that way, I can't help but think SOMETHING changes...
Ed Walters
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Ivan, I've never used these subs but have always been curious about the difference which side the port is on makes on performance. You know, like in half space (out doors on the ground) standing up vs. laying down. I know you guys measure everything accurately. I am curious.... Although I am sure the difference is not large or you wouldn't sell it that way, I can't help but think SOMETHING changes...
Ed Walters
Not Ivan, but from measuring other TH and FLH where there is an option the side with the larger surface area will provide a bit more forward gain, more boundary area.
My guess would be that a pair of TH 212 with the 36 x 36 side forward compared to a pair with the 36 x 15 sides forward would result in an average of around 2-3 dB more on axis level.
Art
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Not Ivan, but from measuring other TH and FLH where there is an option the side with the larger surface area will provide a bit more forward gain, more boundary area.
My guess would be that a pair of TH 212 with the 36 x 36 side forward compared to a pair with the 36 x 15 sides forward would result in an average of around 2-3 dB more on axis level.
Art
You are correct. I use two in this fashion in several rooms, and they are obviously louder
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Not Ivan, but from measuring other TH and FLH where there is an option the side with the larger surface area will provide a bit more forward gain, more boundary area.
My guess would be that a pair of TH 212 with the 36 x 36 side forward compared to a pair with the 36 x 15 sides forward would result in an average of around 2-3 dB more on axis level.
Art
That is totally correct. Of course the gain/forward directivity will depend on freq. The higher freq will have more of both.
Part of the design idea of the TH212 was a dula purpose cabinet in which in on e "mode" it could be put under a short stage and in the other "mode" you could make a block of 4 (with the exits in the middle) and get quite a bit of forward directivity.
This is especially useful in places like gyms and such in which you are trying to keep as much energy as possible out of the ceiling. (assuming the subs were flown in this case)
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Isn't it a shame that "sound quality" is usually the last thing that gets considered when designing a sound stage?
True. This room is in a shopping center and the chairs are in a wide fan shape where the width is almost three (3) times the depth. It was the only way to fit in more people. Sound? What sound? Oh yeah, that sounds good enough...kinda loud though...Can you move those speakers to the back wall so we can see all of the stage? Yeah right there, perfect! Those boxes stacked to the side of the stage need to be moved. Sounds great to me! (Catch my drift...)
Sometimes what we consider sounding the best is not visually appealing to the "boss". Again, I may try what everyone is suggesting as an experiment. If it makes a considerable difference, I will present this view for sure. I am sure that y'all will have my back ;)
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Sometimes what we consider sounding the best is not visually appealing to the "boss". Again, I may try what everyone is suggesting as an experiment. If it makes a considerable difference, I will present this view for sure. I am sure that y'all will have my back ;)
If you could send me [email protected] some drawings with dimensions (doesn't have to be exact-just kinda close) of the room and possible locations to put the subs (photos are nice also) I will do a model and give some suggestions.
However most of this next week is really busy-so it may be a couple of days before I can get back with you.
Is it possible to fly the subs-location wise? Flying them is always my first "go to" in a church/performance room.
By flying them you will get a more even coverage in the space (because the front people are further away and the rear people are still the same distance-so the front to back ratio of distance from the sub is smaller).
Flying them might also open up more options for subs (physical size wise)
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If you could send me [email protected] some drawings with dimensions (doesn't have to be exact-just kinda close) of the room and possible locations to put the subs (photos are nice also) I will do a model and give some suggestions.
However most of this next week is really busy-so it may be a couple of days before I can get back with you.
Is it possible to fly the subs-location wise? Flying them is always my first "go to" in a church/performance room.
By flying them you will get a more even coverage in the space (because the front people are further away and the rear people are still the same distance-so the front to back ratio of distance from the sub is smaller).
Flying them might also open up more options for subs (physical size wise)
Great Ivan! I will take you up on this for sure. I believe that I can get my hands on some drawings and I will take some photos also. I am not sure of flying the subs due to sight lines involving the projection screens. They are left, center, and right of the stage. I had inquired about flying subs in the same series (JBL VRX) but was talked out of it saying that the results would be less than desirable.
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GI had inquired about flying subs in the same series (JBL VRX) but was talked out of it saying that the results would be less than desirable.
There are advantages and disadvantages to each approach.
The biggest issue with subs on the floor is simply that some people are close to them and others are far away. The closer seats will be louder-no way around that.
In some cases this is fine (ie concerts-clubs etc), but in a situation like in a church-the goal SHOULD be to get as close to the same sound quality/level etc as possible.
However we have one local large church in which the original install the subs were flown and provided very even coverage.
But they wanted more punch/impact etc from the same number of subs. So we did a test and put them on the floor in the middle. They LOVED it. and they accept the fact that the close seats are VERY bass heavy.
So much so-that in all of their satellite campuses they INSIST that the subs be put on the ground in front of the stage. They say "That sound is part of our DNA".
They are one of those "kick drum worshiping" Churches
It is important that the end user and designer are aware of the pros and cons of flying vs on the ground.
On the ground can provide more punch and impact up close-but provides (in most cases) poor coverage from front to back and side to side.
Flown subs provide much more even coverage front to back and side to side.
Also with flown subs-it is much easier to integrate the subs with the main speakers (assuming the mains are flown) because they are physically together with them.
Sometimes it can be a bit "odd feeling" if the subs are on the ground and the mains flown-as there can be a "disconnect" in the feeling of the sound-even though it may measure just fine. Our ears tell us different.
The lower the mains go in this case-the less "disconnect" there is. If the mains only go down to around 100Hz or higher-then you can have a big "disconnect". At least I do.
I do both in my designs-it depends on what is most important to the customer and I make them aware of the "price" to be paid for a particular layout.
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There are advantages and disadvantages to each approach.
The biggest issue with subs on the floor is simply that some people are close to them and others are far away. The closer seats will be louder-no way around that.
In some cases this is fine (ie concerts-clubs etc), but in a situation like in a church-the goal SHOULD be to get as close to the same sound quality/level etc as possible.
However we have one local large church in which the original install the subs were flown and provided very even coverage.
But they wanted more punch/impact etc from the same number of subs. So we did a test and put them on the floor in the middle. They LOVED it. and they accept the fact that the close seats are VERY bass heavy.
So much so-that in all of their satellite campuses they INSIST that the subs be put on the ground in front of the stage. They say "That sound is part of our DNA".
They are one of those "kick drum worshiping" Churches
It is important that the end user and designer are aware of the pros and cons of flying vs on the ground.
On the ground can provide more punch and impact up close-but provides (in most cases) poor coverage from front to back and side to side.
Flown subs provide much more even coverage front to back and side to side.
Also with flown subs-it is much easier to integrate the subs with the main speakers (assuming the mains are flown) because they are physically together with them.
Sometimes it can be a bit "odd feeling" if the subs are on the ground and the mains flown-as there can be a "disconnect" in the feeling of the sound-even though it may measure just fine. Our ears tell us different.
The lower the mains go in this case-the less "disconnect" there is. If the mains only go down to around 100Hz or higher-then you can have a big "disconnect". At least I do.
I do both in my designs-it depends on what is most important to the customer and I make them aware of the "price" to be paid for a particular layout.
Just curious... Would flying a couple more subs than you would ground stack result in the same punch/impact?
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Just curious... Would flying a couple more subs than you would ground stack result in the same punch/impact?
It really isn't so much a SPL thing. People like to use the example of the subs on the ground as being in half space and flying them in whole space-with a 6dB difference.
HOWEVER the LISTENER is usually on the ground (not to many people listen when they are 20' off the ground-except at a Grateful dead show ;))-so the listener is in (or close enough) to half space-so the resultant SPL is the same-MAYBE. It depends on where you measure at. If you are measuring up close-then yes the subs on the ground will be louder-DUH you are closer to them and the increase in SPL is exaclty the reason we fly the subs.
BUT measure at the back of the coverage area and see what SPL difference there is. In dealing with subs it is very important to measure at a distance-to help remove cabinet "issues" by being to close. The physical size of the cabinet can throw off the measurement. That is the reason Danley measures subs at 10M with 28V input. A 20dB increase in input level and a 20dB reduction in SPL due to distance.
If you measure a sub of close you will get a higher SPL number than if you measure it at a distance and "back calculate". I feel this is where some subs get their "unusually high" SPL numbers. It is not really a useful number-but it is correct at the distance measured.
It is my feeling that spec numbers should be useful to help figure out how loud a system can actually get. But I need to stop ranting.
One of the things that people like about ground subs is simply the fact that they are on the ground/floor. This transfers energy into the ground-so you get a tactile feel from the subs. It would take more subs flown to give this same tactile feel-but then the SPL as experienced by the listener would be louder.
Basically this why butt shakers are popular-you get the feel without all the level.
So again it comes down to "it depends"