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Title: Underheads/Overheads, other mic technique for cymbals
Post by: Shawn Parmer on January 03, 2013, 04:19:19 PM
What goes into your decision on all the various mic placement techniques for cymbals/overheads?  I know with the hi hat most people recommend top micing because of stick noise/sizzle/bleed.

When bottom micing are you basically close micing every individual cymbal or is it picking up the entire kit similar to overheads?

I have seen a lot of discussion on general overhead placement but not very much about 'nontraditional' techniques like underheads, close micing ride, etc.

Partially I am trying to find ways to cut down on mic stands.  Everything but toms and kick has its own full size mic stand crammed into a small area and it is ugly and a complete pain to negotiate wiring.  Right now the kit I am working with is simple enough that really one overhead would be enough, but I have to bring them in so close to compensate for stage noise that two are needed for even coverage.

Thinking about buying various clamps, etc. that can hook onto cymbal stands but I want something that will be useful on a variety of kits.  Adding mics to experiment with (I know they aren't necessary but I would like being able to experiment some and learn) is not an option because the board is maxed and the snake is almost maxed.  Every time I get to 'we really don't need that, why are we close micing everything?' a song comes up that reminds me why everything is close miced.
Title: Re: Underheads/Overheads, other mic technique for cymbals
Post by: Dave Bednarski on January 03, 2013, 06:24:45 PM
I noticed this, this summer at a few Springsteen shows that Max Weinberg's kit is underhead mic'd, great photo here, http://mrbsdomain.com/gallery2/d/36061-2/IMG-4245.jpg

I've attempted with spare Shure 81s using clamps and similar aiming with minimal success.  =/
Title: Re: Underheads/Overheads, other mic technique for cymbals
Post by: John Chiara on January 03, 2013, 08:59:54 PM
Overhead is simply a description of where the mics are placed not their function. In studio settings I place 'overheads' wherever they work best... Sometimes about 4' high at 10&2 in front of the kit.
And you are probably only wanting to amplify the cymbals with those mics, so experiment and learn about phase relationships in the process.
Title: Re: Underheads/Overheads, other mic technique for cymbals
Post by: Keith Broughton on January 04, 2013, 07:51:19 AM
Overhead is simply a description of where the mics are placed not their function. In studio settings I place 'overheads' wherever they work best... Sometimes about 4' high at 10&2 in front of the kit.
And you are probably only wanting to amplify the cymbals with those mics, so experiment and learn about phase relationships in the process.
Good points.
Also, if using a plexi drum shield, remember to consider reflections from that.
Title: Re: Underheads/Overheads, other mic technique for cymbals
Post by: Geoff Doane on January 04, 2013, 07:58:40 AM
I noticed this, this summer at a few Springsteen shows that Max Weinberg's kit is underhead mic'd, great photo here, http://mrbsdomain.com/gallery2/d/36061-2/IMG-4245.jpg


Great photo!  There's lots of detail there to think about.  At least Max is only using three cymbals.  That's only one extra mic compared to a traditional "stereo" overhead.  8)

Anybody know what's going on with that mic below the snare, but pointed away from the kit?

GTD
Title: Re: Underheads/Overheads, other mic technique for cymbals
Post by: John Chiara on January 04, 2013, 10:35:07 AM
Great photo!  There's lots of detail there to think about.  At least Max is only using three cymbals.  That's only one extra mic compared to a traditional "stereo" overhead.  8)

Anybody know what's going on with that mic below the snare, but pointed away from the kit?

GTD

Probably part of an ambient in ear setup.
Title: Re: Underheads/Overheads, other mic technique for cymbals
Post by: Mac Kerr on January 04, 2013, 10:53:45 AM
Great photo!  There's lots of detail there to think about.  At least Max is only using three cymbals.  That's only one extra mic compared to a traditional "stereo" overhead.  8)

Anybody know what's going on with that mic below the snare, but pointed away from the kit?

GTD

I was talking to a friend who was part of the stage audio crew for the 121212 concert at Madison Square Garden. He mentioned that it was good that Bruce was on first so they didn't have to set up his 112 inputs during a changeover. I think the number of drum OHs was a minor thing. Eric Clapton was 12 inputs.

Mac
Title: Re: Underheads/Overheads, other mic technique for cymbals
Post by: John Chiara on January 04, 2013, 12:18:35 PM
I was talking to a friend who was part of the stage audio crew for the 121212 concert at Madison Square Garden. He mentioned that it was good that Bruce was on first so they didn't have to set up his 112 inputs during a changeover. I think the number of drum OHs was a minor thing. Eric Clapton was 12 inputs.

Mac

This amazes me sometimes. I understand every show is different but 112 inputs for a live show. Maybe a lot of backups?
Title: Re: Underheads/Overheads, other mic technique for cymbals
Post by: Shawn Parmer on January 04, 2013, 01:23:24 PM
Overhead is simply a description of where the mics are placed not their function. In studio settings I place 'overheads' wherever they work best... Sometimes about 4' high at 10&2 in front of the kit.
And you are probably only wanting to amplify the cymbals with those mics, so experiment and learn about phase relationships in the process.

I know it is a reference on position, that is why I mentioned overheads/underheads/techniques.  I would love to have more time/channels to experiment but unfortunately that isn't an option.  Trying to learn some of the techniques, narrow them down a bit, and then play with those.

Right now I am practically close micing the cymbals anyway.

Good points.
Also, if using a plexi drum shield, remember to consider reflections from that.


Thanks for the reminder.

This amazes me sometimes. I understand every show is different but 112 inputs for a live show. Maybe a lot of backups?

Close micing every string on the piano maybe?  I have seen some keyboard setups that would probably eat up 16+ channels if the person playing could get away with it.
Title: Re: Underheads/Overheads, other mic technique for cymbals
Post by: EvanKirkendall on January 04, 2013, 05:14:14 PM
I'm all about less clutter, and LP claws for my full kit have been the solution. Close micing everything, and underheads on the cymbals. It works well and sounds good to me. Granted, my drummer beats the shit out of everything so I don't lose any brightness or attack with the underheads...



Evan
Title: Re: Underheads/Overheads, other mic technique for cymbals
Post by: Daniel Nickleski on January 04, 2013, 08:19:37 PM
I'll second what Evan said. For All Time Low this setup has worked great for us. It has also worked great for ever other band I have worked for. Less clutter on stage and a much cleaner look.
Title: Re: Underheads/Overheads, other mic technique for cymbals
Post by: Shawn Parmer on January 04, 2013, 08:32:55 PM
I'm all about less clutter, and LP claws for my full kit have been the solution. Close micing everything, and underheads on the cymbals. It works well and sounds good to me. Granted, my drummer beats the shit out of everything so I don't lose any brightness or attack with the underheads...

Evan

I have heard of issues with the LP claws being easy to tear up the drums.  Has this been an issue for you?  Been considering buying at least a couple myself for things like djembe/congas.  A couple times with a group of percussionists the stage has turned into a bit of a mic stand forest because the Shure PG mic mounts (if you can even call them that) can't attach and even if they could they are not compatible with the screws on standard Shure mic clips.  Djembe Top/Bottom, Conga, and Cajon Front/Port all miced using standard vocal boom stands is one of the ugliest things I have ever seen.

Thinking the lpclaw or one of the K&M dual mic mounts could be useful for me at least for getting hihat and possibly snare on space limited stages even if I don't do underheads.

On that kit is that 4 underheads + hihat?

I would be a bit worried about brightness/attack on the hihat because of the bottom cymbal but how drastic of a difference is there with the others?  Is it something that can be compensated for using a bit of eq?

On a completely unrelated note, is the thin wire coming from the kick mic area a wire for an internal kick mic?  Always wondered about how to consistently get that to work without interfering with the other mic or the drum head.
Title: Re: Underheads/Overheads, other mic technique for cymbals
Post by: EvanKirkendall on January 04, 2013, 10:20:29 PM
I have heard of issues with the LP claws being easy to tear up the drums.  Has this been an issue for you?  Been considering buying at least a couple myself for things like djembe/congas.  A couple times with a group of percussionists the stage has turned into a bit of a mic stand forest because the Shure PG mic mounts (if you can even call them that) can't attach and even if they could they are not compatible with the screws on standard Shure mic clips.  Djembe Top/Bottom, Conga, and Cajon Front/Port all miced using standard vocal boom stands is one of the ugliest things I have ever seen.

Thinking the lpclaw or one of the K&M dual mic mounts could be useful for me at least for getting hihat and possibly snare on space limited stages even if I don't do underheads.

On that kit is that 4 underheads + hihat?

I would be a bit worried about brightness/attack on the hihat because of the bottom cymbal but how drastic of a difference is there with the others?  Is it something that can be compensated for using a bit of eq?

On a completely unrelated note, is the thin wire coming from the kick mic area a wire for an internal kick mic?  Always wondered about how to consistently get that to work without interfering with the other mic or the drum head.

Never had an issue with them tearing up the drums. Granted, I always clamp to the drum hardware, not the actual drum. I found that clamping to the hoops would detune the drum with the weight of the claw and mic.

I've got L C R OH's, ride and Hat. Never had an issue with anything sounding dull. Here's a sample board recording that I've got:

http://harfordsound.com/Do%20you%20want%20me%20deadd.mp3

The thin wire coming out of the drum is from my SM91. Cable sits on top of the D6. Never have an issue with the drum tearing up the cable with it sitting on top of the D6.


Evan
Title: Re: Underheads/Overheads, other mic technique for cymbals
Post by: Rick Powell on January 04, 2013, 10:39:39 PM
The LP Claw continues to be one of my more favorite pieces of versatile mic mounting hardware.  Our regular drummer uses Tama Starclassics with the suspension mounting, and the LP grabs the suspension bar good, and will usually clamp well to drum hardware one way or another.  I do not like mounting directly on the drum rim, I always ask permission if I'm doing sound for and the drummer doesn't have suspended toms.  Some guys are touchy about clamping to their drums.