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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Scott Carneval on March 07, 2013, 05:17:52 PM
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I would ask this on the hi-fi boards, but everything it seems they all swear by the $300/ft oxygen free magical twist french braided speaker wire. Is there any difference compared to using a quality 12/2 or 14/2? I have a friend who wants me to move his equipment to the back of his listening room and fish the wire through the floor and back up the wall. Right now he has cables that are about the size of my thumb (didn't check the gauge) but they're only about 10' long each because the gear is in a bookshelf in the front of the room. If we move it to the back we'll need about 30' per run. The speakers are Ascendants by Avalon Acoustics, 4ohm impedence and rated for 50-200 watts each. I told him we could connect them with his magical wire and my West Penn 224 and see if we notice a difference, but I was hoping someone could give some input on what to expect.
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In my experience, the only person who hears an improvement is the person who bought the wire.
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Copper is copper. Usually if a difference is heard when replacing speaker wire it is beacuse the ends of the wire being replaced are badly oxidized. A simple cutting and restripping of the ends would bring about the same improvement heard with new wire.
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#resistancehigh (http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#resistancehigh)
This calculator (http://www.bcae1.com/images/swfs/speakerwireselectorassistant.swf) will guide you for wire length and gauge determination.
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Some 14ga install speaker wire(has a shielded jacket) will do the trick, for the power level you're talking about here these giant welding cables the Audiofools love to use are absurd.
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Why would you use shielded cable for speakers in a home stereo?
Some 14ga install speaker wire(has a shielded jacket) will do the trick, for the power level you're talking about here these giant welding cables the Audiofools love to use are absurd.
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I've always used zip cord. Buy it at the hardware store. Flexible, handles plenty of power, white or brown, cheap.
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FYI - if you don't want to fish wires through the floor, we used flexible molding trim at the wall/roof corner and added a nice touch to the room. A lot easier than potentially having to drill holes through joists. the PVC foam trim molding also molds to irregular walls, and your corner cuts won't shrink over time...
We used zip cord as well, 40' run of each for the surrounds. Of course, ours was that clear kind, which allows for more transparent sound...
Just a thought.
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I've always used zip cord. Buy it at the hardware store. Flexible, handles plenty of power, white or brown, cheap.
+1 zip cord
JR
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Copper is copper, and "you'll never take me alive, Coper!"
Avoid wire with a brand name or chemical composition that can be found in any AudioPhool publication or on such websites. Avoid anything that costs more than $10/pound.
14ga. zip cord is ideal. Go to a rock shop and get some pretty quartz or turquoise and tiny cloth bags to hold it. Tie one to each speaker wire at whatever end matches the story you're about to make up. These bags of rocks will provide the "magic" necessary to transform mere zip cord into an AudioPhool Delight. Embellish as you see fit.
Remember that Freud thought a large fee to be therapeutic....
edit ps. I'll PM you with an address for my commission. 8)
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Good one, Ned.....
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Shielded speaker wire can introduce noise into the system. The same goes for non-twisted speaker wire-such as straight zip cord.
Any 16 to 14 gauge twisted pair speaker wire will suffice and pass amplified speaker level signal equally well as any other cable, including the high dollar exotics.
Twisted pair wiring is noise self-canceling. A thousand feet of cat5 without shield is church quiet.
Once upon a time, I did a blind A/B/C test with a friend who considers himself an "audiophile" on his high end system. His big bucks wire, 16 gauge zip cord and just two strands of a cat5 wire. He could NOT discern the difference between any of the cables.
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That same fool today has these high voltage insulators lined up across his living room to elevate the speaker cables off the floor. It "improves the imagery and transparency of the sound while unveiling the curtain on the acoustical performance of the inductors"
I'm in the wrong business!
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u316/pbellsound/KGrHqVHJEFE3spbY-qBROKk1g2dQ60_12_zps3f89319e.jpg)
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Shielded speaker wire can introduce noise into the system. The same goes for non-twisted speaker wire-such as straight zip cord.
Most cases of noise in hifi systems caused by speaker wire were related to marginal hifi amplifier designs. The hifi side is/was flakier than even value pro amps.
Shielded wire has more capacitance which "could" lead a marginal amp to oscillate. While the oscillation is generally above audio frequency sometimes you will hear noise or even radio, until the amp releases it's smoke.
Zip cord does not have much loop area between the conductors to pick up noise from magnetic fields. Twisted pair is better than loose single wires but both the loudspeaker load and amplifier output are relatively low impedance, so noise pick up is generally not an issue. I have seen a few obscure cases where a speaker wire picked up a high RF field and that got rectified by the amplifier output stage, but that is pretty rare.
I stand with zip cord recommendation, and keeping the wire runs relatively short.
Any 16 to 14 gauge twisted pair speaker wire will suffice and pass amplified speaker level signal equally well as any other cable, including the high dollar exotics.
Twisted pair wiring is noise self-canceling. A thousand feet of cat5 without shield is church quiet.
Once upon a time, I did a blind A/B/C test with a friend who considers himself an "audiophile" on his high end system. His big bucks wire, 16 gauge zip cord and just two strands of a cat5 wire. He could NOT discern the difference between any of the cables.
If the wires were short I wouldn't expect any audible difference. If the wire length and gauge allows enough resistance build up, it can alter passive crossover tuning, and interact with the speaker impedance changing with frequency to cause response errors.
The hifi wire business is a stupidity tax.
JR
PS: I recall years ago on this forum wrestling with a true believer who "heard" an improvement from his exotic speaker cable. After a little back and forth we determined that the resistance of the relatively small gauge speaker wire had altered the frequency response of his particular speakers in a way he liked. There is an expectation bias with expensive doo-dads to interpret any difference as an improvement.
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Shielded is probably the wrong term to use on a forum like this I should have said jacketed.. it makes the cable easier to pull through drilled holes and protects the conductors.
http://www.parts-express.com/cat/in-wall-speaker-wire/1618
Why would you use shielded cable for speakers in a home stereo?
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In my experience, the only person who hears an improvement is the person who bought the wire.
.... and the people who sell them.
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keeping the wire runs relatively short. If the wires were short I wouldn't expect any audible difference. If the wire length and gauge allows enough resistance build up, it can alter passive crossover tuning, and interact with the speaker impedance changing with frequency to cause response errors.
Yep. He'll probably do more damage to his systems's performance, percieved or not, by relocating the amplifiers farther away, than a specific speaker wire will.
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Shielded speaker wire can introduce noise into the system. The same goes for non-twisted speaker wire-such as straight zip cord.
Any 16 to 14 gauge twisted pair speaker wire will suffice and pass amplified speaker level signal equally well as any other cable, including the high dollar exotics.
Twisted pair wiring is noise self-canceling. A thousand feet of cat5 without shield is church quiet.
Once upon a time, I did a blind A/B/C test with a friend who considers himself an "audiophile" on his high end system. His big bucks wire, 16 gauge zip cord and just two strands of a cat5 wire. He could NOT discern the difference between any of the cables.
Back in the 1980s, I compared 12-GA zip, "Monster" cable, and Litz wire. The stereo system consisted of an Ampzilla amp driving Dalquist DQ-10 (IIRC) speakers. A pretty decent stereo system at the time.
The 12-GA and the Monster cables produced no audible difference. I could hear a difference between the Litz wire and the other cables, but I couldn't tell you if it was better or worse -- just different. I can't explain the difference (certainly none of the marketing hype concerning Litz wire at the time makes any sense to me today), but there was definitely a difference.
Today I wouldn't hear a difference; but back then my hearing was actually pretty good.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde
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Most cases of noise in hifi systems caused by speaker wire were related to marginal hifi amplifier designs. The hifi side is/was flakier than even value pro amps.
Shielded wire has more capacitance which "could" lead a marginal amp to oscillate. While the oscillation is generally above audio frequency sometimes you will hear noise or even radio, until the amp releases it's smoke.
Zip cord does not have much loop area between the conductors to pick up noise from magnetic fields. Twisted pair is better than loose single wires but both the loudspeaker load and amplifier output are relatively low impedance, so noise pick up is generally not an issue. I have seen a few obscure cases where a speaker wire picked up a high RF field and that got rectified by the amplifier output stage, but that is pretty rare.
I stand with zip cord recommendation, and keeping the wire runs relatively short. If the wires were short I wouldn't expect any audible difference. If the wire length and gauge allows enough resistance build up, it can alter passive crossover tuning, and interact with the speaker impedance changing with frequency to cause response errors.
The hifi wire business is a stupidity tax.
JR
PS: I recall years ago on this forum wrestling with a true believer who "heard" an improvement from his exotic speaker cable. After a little back and forth we determined that the resistance of the relatively small gauge speaker wire had altered the frequency response of his particular speakers in a way he liked. There is an expectation bias with expensive doo-dads to interpret any difference as an improvement.
I stand by the zip cord. I've owned and now own some top class systems and have never had an issue, picked up noise, or sacraficed tone or clarity. Actually, many well known and highly respected hi-fi speaker manufactureres ship zip cord with their cabinets, and to say zip cord will induce noise or is a major cause for concern is just crapola.
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I stand by the zip cord. I've owned and now own some top class systems and have never had an issue, picked up noise, or sacraficed tone or clarity. Actually, many well known and highly respected hi-fi speaker manufactureres ship zip cord with their cabinets, and to say zip cord will induce noise or is a major cause for concern is just crapola.
But my MajikQuartz® Cable Impurity Dampers is fo' real, fo' sure. ;)
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But my MajikQuartz® Cable Impurity Dampers is fo' real, fo' sure. ;)
But really unnecessary.
All you really need to do is run your cables through the washing machine once per week for really clean sound.
The fresh scent tide seems to give the vest transient response.
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But really unnecessary.
All you really need to do is run your cables through the washing machine once per week for really clean sound.
The fresh scent tide seems to give the vest transient response.
B.S. When the scent wears off so does the effect, and most users can't remove their wires from the installation. My MajikQuartz® Cable Impurity Dampers work so long as the bag remains tied to the cable.
So there. Pffffffft! (my Bill the Cat acknowledgement).
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B.S. When the scent wears off so does the effect, and most users can't remove their wires from the installation. My MajikQuartz® Cable Impurity Dampers work so long as the bag remains tied to the cable.
So there. Pffffffft! (my Bill the Cat acknowledgement).
You must be snorting the dandelions
So I challenge you to a totally biased, uncontrolled, purely subjective listening test.
We can use the Billy and the Boingers single as the source material
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CABLE SHOOTOUT!!!
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I've always used zip cord. Buy it at the hardware store. Flexible, handles plenty of power, white or brown, cheap.
OK, I think I got it. The clear version is for transparent sound ;D, but if I need to EQ to the room I use brown to warm it up 8), or white if the sound needs to be brighter ;).
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OK, I think I got it. The clear version is for transparent sound ;D, but if I need to EQ to the room I use brown to warm it up 8), or white if the sound needs to be brighter ;).
^like
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OK, I think I got it. The clear version is for transparent sound ;D, but if I need to EQ to the room I use brown to warm it up 8), or white if the sound needs to be brighter ;).
Personally, for hi fi I recommend used blasting wire. It's usually free, it's usually oxygen AND copper free, and it's demonstrated that in the past that someone got a bang out of it.
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You must be snorting the dandelions
So I challenge you to a totally biased, uncontrolled, purely subjective listening test.
We can use the Billy and the Boingers single as the source material
Uh... you got a copy of that? "U Stink but I *heart* You" and "I'm a Boinger"
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a friend that did multitrack to 2 track stereo studio master work also worked at several audiophile (including Christopher Hansens) stores in la. as there were audible differences between amps and speakers there were small audible differences between cables. we even experimented with our own cables and he liked 2 rg6 catv cables for speker wire. i like 10 gauge because the bass is a little stronger and i have dynaudio 30w100 woofs that can handle 300 watts rms. i use fine stranded automotive power cable because its very flexable and the insulation is tough. my stereo is powered by a qsc 3500 that rated 300 watts into 8 ohms and i crank it up.
my firend and i did a lot of comparisons between conrad-johnson , manley(used in lots of recording studios) , audio research , vtl , cat , mit cable , kimber cable , monster cable , and other brands of high priced junk. save your money and buy zip cord. if you crank it like i do use 12 or 10 gauge. i use canarie star quad and make my own rca interconnect cables.
for a home stereo 12-14 gauge zip cord is fine. the larger gauge seems to have better bass and just for you guys that might mock me , i am a drummer , sound man , recording engineer and can easily make a recording and compare it to the real instrument.
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Uh... you got a copy of that? "U Stink but I *heart* You" and "I'm a Boinger"
Well I dug up the book but the single has gone missing somewhere in my library.
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Personally, for hi fi I recommend used blasting wire. It's usually free, it's usually oxygen AND copper free, and it's demonstrated that in the past that someone got a bang out of it.
Yeah, great impulse response with that stuff...
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a friend that did multitrack to 2 track stereo studio master work also worked at several audiophile (including Christopher Hansens) stores in la. as there were audible differences between amps and speakers there were small audible differences between cables. we even experimented with our own cables and he liked 2 rg6 catv cables for speker wire. i like 10 gauge because the bass is a little stronger and i have dynaudio 30w100 woofs that can handle 300 watts rms. i use fine stranded automotive power cable because its very flexable and the insulation is tough. my stereo is powered by a qsc 3500 that rated 300 watts into 8 ohms and i crank it up.
my firend and i did a lot of comparisons between conrad-johnson , manley(used in lots of recording studios) , audio research , vtl , cat , mit cable , kimber cable , monster cable , and other brands of high priced junk. save your money and buy zip cord. if you crank it like i do use 12 or 10 gauge. i use canarie star quad and make my own rca interconnect cables.
for a home stereo 12-14 gauge zip cord is fine. the larger gauge seems to have better bass and just for you guys that might mock me , i am a drummer , sound man , recording engineer and can easily make a recording and compare it to the real instrument.
There is some large gauge zip cord out there in the world, but that is not the type cable we're speaking about here. Zip cord by definition is a cable that has a pair of insulated conductors that can be pulled apart by hand. One side of the cable will be plain, and the other side will be ribbed, making it very easy to designate plus minus withing the pair.
Zip cord also comes in many colors including white, clear, gold, black, red, and brown and combinations, usually black and red, for use with DC circuits and devices. Brown was the dominent color until the mid / late 60's, and the most common use for zip cord is table lamps and speaker wire.
The single most common gauge for zip cord, is 18 guage. I am aware of other type cables that come in pairs, may be red and black, can be pulled appart by hand, and are not 18 guage. These should be considered speciality use zip cord, such as the zip cord designed for automotive work. These type zip cords can be found at Radio Shack and other distributors. None of these cables should be used for home wiring that will be hidden in a wall. Fiber cable also has a zip cord designation for certain types.
When used for lamps zip cord should never be run under rugs, and zip cord should never be used to manufacture extension cords.
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Well I dug up the book but the single has gone missing somewhere in my library.
The boingers were just a watered down version of Deathtongue.
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The boingers were just a watered down version of Deathtongue.
Had to bring the large flightless waterfowl with large proboscis down from his perch above my desk for a little photo op...
Opus rocks.
John
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Had to bring the large flightless waterfowl with large proboscis down from his perch above my desk for a little photo op...
Opus rocks.
John
I didn't know they were hall-of-famers http://tyrannyoftradition.com/2012/04/09/deathtongue-honored-by-imaginary-rock-roll-hall-of-fame/
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This hits at the other part of my experience as a home theater designer/ installer
Electrically zip or regular speaker cable is fine 18ga - 14ga stranded is fine. Any larger you hit a point of diminishing returns and most home gear won't take anything bigger than 14ga.
BUT (and this is a bigger but than my butt) if you are penetrating a fire stopping plane (wall, floor or ceiling) you should use CL rated wire. If you go through an air plenum you need at least CL-3 rated. That is assuming you are not running conduit.
If you are doing new construction, the inspector( if he or she has a clue) will make you tear it out. If you are doing it for yourself, some day when you sell the house, the home inspector (code enforcement wannabes) will raise holy hell.
As to jacketed vs Non Jacketed- I find it is easier to pull a round cable through a round hole.
the jacket also adds a little extra protection from what the electricians around here call "shortages" ::)
I would ask this on the hi-fi boards, but everything it seems they all swear by the $300/ft oxygen free magical twist french braided speaker wire. Is there any difference compared to using a quality 12/2 or 14/2? I have a friend who wants me to move his equipment to the back of his listening room and fish the wire through the floor and back up the wall. Right now he has cables that are about the size of my thumb (didn't check the gauge) but they're only about 10' long each because the gear is in a bookshelf in the front of the room. If we move it to the back we'll need about 30' per run. The speakers are Ascendants by Avalon Acoustics, 4ohm impedence and rated for 50-200 watts each. I told him we could connect them with his magical wire and my West Penn 224 and see if we notice a difference, but I was hoping someone could give some input on what to expect.
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If you go through an air plenum you need at least CL-3 rated. That is assuming you are not running conduit.
CL-3 doesn't mean that that the wire is plenum rated. You'd have to see something ending with a "p" such as CL-3P, but there are also CL-2P Cables out there.