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Church and H.O.W. – Forums for HOW Sound and AV - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Church and HOW Forums => Church Sound => Topic started by: Paul Foeller on February 28, 2014, 05:18:12 PM
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I'm looking to replace pretty much every facet of the sound system in a sanctuary that is split into two sections separated by a wall that extends downward approx. 5 feet from the ceiling. The "main" room is 3750 sq. ft, of which about 1/4 is stage space. The other "room" is about 2500 sq ft, of which about 1/5 is stage space. The ceiling in both rooms is vaulted at anywhere between 30 and 40 feet. Basically, it's an acoustical nightmare.
That said, I'm not so much looking to make the sound perfect as I am looking to make the new system adequate for the space. What I'm looking at currently is:
4 Cerwin Vega INT-152 V2 speakers (2 on each side)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/997157-REG/cerwin_vega_int_152v2_int_152_v2_15_2_way.html
2 Cerwin Vega INT-118S V2 Subwoofers (1 on each side)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/997159-REG/cerwin_vega_int_118sv2_int_118s_v2_18_passive.html
3 Cerwin Vega CV-1800 amps
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/997138-REG/cerwin_vega_cv_1800_na_cv_1800_high_performance_professional.html
1 PreSonus Studio Live 16.0.2 Digital Mixer
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/763627-REG/PreSonus_STUDIOLIVE_16_0_2_StudioLive_16_0_2_Performance.html
I'm also planning some other purchases, but I'm certain on those purchases. My question is about the above listed items.
Are they adequate or overkill? Are they about right for my needs?
The system will be primarily used for regular traditional and contemporary worship services, as well as monthly movie nights and other activities.
Thanks for you input.
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It is difficult to imagine the space without pictures. That said there are two comments I have.
One - without knowing the type of program material it's hard to suggest if a speaker is appropriate or not. A rock church needs a very different spl than a traditional catholic service
Two - you should not have speakers on the same side overlapping coverage. If you need 90 degrees of horizontal coverage then find a single speaker with 90 degrees of coverage that will do the job. The speakers you link to are on the extreme low end of the budget and performance spectrum. The will certainly make noise but probably do not sound good at all.
Do you have any pictures of the space? The presonus is a decent console, it would be a shame to send the signal into crappy speakers. What is your budget?
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In a reverberant space it is advantageous to aim the speakers at the people and not at the reverberant spaces. A flown system installed by a professional will give you the best results. That being said, the fewer speakers the better. Try to use only one speaker & one sub per side. Consider using auxiliary subs to keep the vocals out of the subs. The best answer will be the most expensive but it might be better to spend a bit more than have something that will not work.
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It is difficult to imagine the space without pictures. That said there are two comments I have.
One - without knowing the type of program material it's hard to suggest if a speaker is appropriate or not. A rock church needs a very different spl than a traditional catholic service
Two - you should not have speakers on the same side overlapping coverage. If you need 90 degrees of horizontal coverage then find a single speaker with 90 degrees of coverage that will do the job. The speakers you link to are on the extreme low end of the budget and performance spectrum. The will certainly make noise but probably do not sound good at all.
Do you have any pictures of the space? The presonus is a decent console, it would be a shame to send the signal into crappy speakers. What is your budget?
The budget is whatever it takes to get the job done, within reason (as in don't get stuff just because it's expensive). I won't be able to get pictures until tomorrow. What consitutes non-crappy speakers?
Thanks for the help.
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The budget is whatever it takes to get the job done, within reason (as in don't get stuff just because it's expensive). I won't be able to get pictures until tomorrow. What consitutes non-crappy speakers?
Thanks for the help.
No problem - there are great offerings from a number of companies, I can probably name 10 or so, but to give some perspective, a couple years ago we spent $200k putting sound and video in a 450 seat space. So budget REALLY matters, and if it is a waste of time to recommend a system that consists of $3000 a piece speakers before you get cable in the wall, or amplifiers, or anything else, then it's a waste of time...
I would also say my recommendation is that you contract with a reputable av firm to help you come up with a list of needs and then develop a plan to implement them.
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The budget is whatever it takes to get the job done, within reason (as in don't get stuff just because it's expensive). I won't be able to get pictures until tomorrow. What consitutes non-crappy speakers?
Thanks for the help.
Until we know more about the room and your use of the system it's difficult to offer any recommendations that would be based on your specific situation.
By your use of the system I mean things like knowing whether the system is permanent or portable, what instruments you plan to run through the system, how important spoken word is to your services, the skill level and experience of the operators, whether there are any specific expectations in terms of performance or functionality, etc. And since you are apparently replacing an existing system, it could really help to know what is currently there, why you are replacing it and what improvements or changes you are hoping to obtain.
The Cerwin-Vega speakers you listed are definitely what I would consider MI grade rather than professional grade. One aspect of that is that the information available on them is limited, I read the web site pages, data sheets and manual for the mains and subs and still don't know if they have a pole cup, although they do say they are not intended to be flown or suspended. They also claim a nominal 90x50 pattern for the mains but there is no more detailed data showing the actual pattern at different frequencies. That kind of more information may not really matter to a band or DJ just wanting to put out sound but it can be important when you are wanting to determine if all your members will hear the sound from the system while also understanding the spoken word in your "acoustical nightmare".
You said you are planning on other purchases, does that include processing for the speaker system? As far as I can tell, the mixer, subwoofers, main speakers and amplifiers you selected have no integrated crossover functionality, thus unless you are running aux fed subs and using the mixer output equalization, which seems unlikely, you will need to provide a crossover or speaker processor before the amplifiers in order to route the high frequencies to the main speakers and the low frequencies to the subwoofers.
Will the eight mono and four mono/stereo inputs of the 16.0.2 be sufficient for your use? One might assume that the reference to contemporary services represents a band or some instrument sources and the reference to traditional services one or more mics for that while the reference to movie nights seems to represent at least one stereo source for that purpose. You might want to make sure you have sufficient inputs for your needs and perhaps some future expansion.
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No one is suggesting you buy anything "just because it's expensive". Your certainly at no risk of that right now - CV and similar products are sorta something people but "just because they are cheap".
+1 on the coverage - 90 degree horizontal boxes are too wide to splay close together nicely. How many degrees of coverage do you estimate you need? If not that much, consider one box per side that is much louder. That shouldn't be hard, OR expensive considering that the CV's CALCULATED SPL is a small 124db.
If you look at one box per side with the coverage you need, you can get something much nicer for similar money. If you aren't experienced in configuring a DSP and processing a system, consider powered speakers. JBL PRX700, QSC KW, and Yamaha DSR offer significant pre-configured processing and require no external crossover.
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Until we know more about the room and your use of the system it's difficult to offer any recommendations that would be based on your specific situation.
By your use of the system I mean things like knowing whether the system is permanent or portable, what instruments you plan to run through the system, how important spoken word is to your services, the skill level and experience of the operators, whether there are any specific expectations in terms of performance or functionality, etc. And since you are apparently replacing an existing system, it could really help to know what is currently there, why you are replacing it and what improvements or changes you are hoping to obtain.
The Cerwin-Vega speakers you listed are definitely what I would consider MI grade rather than professional grade. One aspect of that is that the information available on them is limited, I read the web site pages, data sheets and manual for the mains and subs and still don't know if they have a pole cup, although they do say they are not intended to be flown or suspended. They also claim a nominal 90x50 pattern for the mains but there is no more detailed data showing the actual pattern at different frequencies. That kind of more information may not really matter to a band or DJ just wanting to put out sound but it can be important when you are wanting to determine if all your members will hear the sound from the system while also understanding the spoken word in your "acoustical nightmare".
You said you are planning on other purchases, does that include processing for the speaker system? As far as I can tell, the mixer, subwoofers, main speakers and amplifiers you selected have no integrated crossover functionality, thus unless you are running aux fed subs and using the mixer output equalization, which seems unlikely, you will need to provide a crossover or speaker processor before the amplifiers in order to route the high frequencies to the main speakers and the low frequencies to the subwoofers.
Will the eight mono and four mono/stereo inputs of the 16.0.2 be sufficient for your use? One might assume that the reference to contemporary services represents a band or some instrument sources and the reference to traditional services one or more mics for that while the reference to movie nights seems to represent at least one stereo source for that purpose. You might want to make sure you have sufficient inputs for your needs and perhaps some future expansion.
It will be a permanent system, with mostly piano, drums and acoustic guitar in addition to some spoken word. I'm fairly new on the scene on this specific place, but have a lot of mixing experience before this. The main reason I'm taking over is that the other operators are really bad at mixing sound and understanding basic concepts about feedback, distortion, and anything else besides moving the channel sliders up and down. I mentioned gain one time, and they looked at me like I had just walked off of a spaceship.
Performance expectations are simply to improve on the old system. The old system consists of an analog Yamaha board (I don't remember the model number, but it is clearly at least a decade old, probably closer to 2 decades old) that has no effects processing. It's a 32 channel board, but it's being used in crazy ways. Probably half of the channels are being used improperly (floor monitors and other aux sends, rca inputs for computers and dvd players, etc) which is taking up more channels than needed.
I have no idea what speakers are being flown, except that they were already there in a picture from the early 80's and they look like this: http://www.beoworld.org/prod_details.asp?pid=647 except they're white and possibly a little bigger. There are currently 2 of those on each side of the room, and no subwoofer. There is also currently an apparently equally old Peavy amp and they've EQ'd it all in a smiley face shape... yeah, it's really bad.
They asked my opinion, and after having been to a number of services there -- and never having a single service without multiple instances of distortion, feedback, and nearly inaudible voices and instruments -- I told them that what they currently have is at the very least outdated, and more than likely incapable of ever doing what they want it to do.
So now, on their request, I'm looking in to replacing pretty much everything, and I've been given no budget or specific instruction. Fun stuff.
That said, If I'm understanding correctly, I would be better served by getting one of these:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1003318-REG/jbl_prx735_1500w_15_3_way_powered.html
for each side of the space, and pairing each with a sub like this:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1003320-REG/jbl_prx718xlf_1500w_18_extended_lows.html
is that correct? If so, what amp, crossover, mixer or other recommendations would you make?
Thanks again.
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So now, on their request, I'm looking in to replacing pretty much everything, and I've been given no budget or specific instruction. Fun stuff.
That said, If I'm understanding correctly, I would be better served by getting one of these:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1003318-REG/jbl_prx735_1500w_15_3_way_powered.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1003318-REG/jbl_prx735_1500w_15_3_way_powered.html)
for each side of the space, and pairing each with a sub like this:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1003320-REG/jbl_prx718xlf_1500w_18_extended_lows.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1003320-REG/jbl_prx718xlf_1500w_18_extended_lows.html)
is that correct? If so, what amp, crossover, mixer or other recommendations would you make?
For permanent installs you often start by looking at where speakers can be located and based on that, what speaker pattern(s) may be appropriate in order to provide good coverage while also minimizing overlap and keeping the sound aimed at the listeners rather than at the walls or ceiling. Without knowing the speaker locations or how those relate to the listener area it is therefore difficult to comment on any proposed speakers or to make related recommendations. And without knowing the room and where speakers could be located it is usually rather difficult to determine where the speakers should be located. While nothing can beat actually being able to be in the room, it would really help to have any pictures, drawings, dimensions, etc. for the room.
Another aspect of the speaker system is the speaker output and response. As proposed to be installed, can the speakers provide sufficient output and do they have appropriate response for the intended application? There's two basic ways to approach this. One is to define related goals and select speakers that can be predicted to meet those goals. If you have any goals for the desired sound levels and/or response then knowing that that might help people with such an effort. The other option is to select speakers based solely on other criteria (size, brand, price, etc.) and then accept whatever results they provide. It really comes down to whether you have any specific goals in terms of the system output and/or response or are willing to accept whatever you get.
Of course one aspect of the speaker installation that is often relevant to installed systems is whether any speakers are to be flown or rigged overhead. That is often a desired approach in order to obtain more even coverage across the entire listener area, but it also entails having a professonal verify that you have structure to which the speakers can be safely attached and having appropriately qualified and insured parties handle the related installation.
Then there is system tuning. Getting the most from a speaker system often involves proper system optimization or tuning and that includes both having the appropriate equipment in place and having the skills and tools to apply that equipment in an effective manner. While many churches cut back on the tuning and/or related hardware to help reduce costs, just be aware that doing so quite likely negatively affects the final system performance and/or limits getting the most effective use of the speaker system hardware.
The general point is that selecting speakers for installed systems is typically approached differently than selecting them for portable systems and because you are dealing with a specific space and often specific uses, much of that difference is often in optimizing the speakers, their physical implementation and the system tuning to the specific room, acoustical environment and application(s) involved. Put simply, to get the best results for installed speaker systems it is usually not just picking good speakers for the intended use, it is also considering how the speakers will work with the intended implementation in that particular space.
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For permanent installs you often start by looking at where speakers can be located and based on that, what speaker pattern(s) may be appropriate in order to provide good coverage while also minimizing overlap and keeping the sound aimed at the listeners rather than at the walls or ceiling. Without knowing the speaker locations or how those relate to the listener area it is therefore difficult to comment on any proposed speakers or to make related recommendations. And without knowing the room and where speakers could be located it is usually rather difficult to determine where the speakers should be located. While nothing can beat actually being able to be in the room, it would really help to have any pictures, drawings, dimensions, etc. for the room.
Another aspect of the speaker system is the speaker output and response. As proposed to be installed, can the speakers provide sufficient output and do they have appropriate response for the intended application? There's two basic ways to approach this. One is to define related goals and select speakers that can be predicted to meet those goals. If you have any goals for the desired sound levels and/or response then knowing that that might help people with such an effort. The other option is to select speakers based solely on other criteria (size, brand, price, etc.) and then accept whatever results they provide. It really comes down to whether you have any specific goals in terms of the system output and/or response or are willing to accept whatever you get.
Of course one aspect of the speaker installation that is often relevant to installed systems is whether any speakers are to be flown or rigged overhead. That is often a desired approach in order to obtain more even coverage across the entire listener area, but it also entails having a professonal verify that you have structure to which the speakers can be safely attached and having appropriately qualified and insured parties handle the related installation.
Then there is system tuning. Getting the most from a speaker system often involves proper system optimization or tuning and that includes both having the appropriate equipment in place and having the skills and tools to apply that equipment in an effective manner. While many churches cut back on the tuning and/or related hardware to help reduce costs, just be aware that doing so quite likely negatively affects the final system performance and/or limits getting the most effective use of the speaker system hardware.
The general point is that selecting speakers for installed systems is typically approached differently than selecting them for portable systems and because you are dealing with a specific space and often specific uses, much of that difference is often in optimizing the speakers, their physical implementation and the system tuning to the specific room, acoustical environment and application(s) involved. Put simply, to get the best results for installed speaker systems it is usually not just picking good speakers for the intended use, it is also considering how the speakers will work with the intended implementation in that particular space.
I've attached a rough layout of the sanctuary space, with the stage area indicated by the red line, the partial wall by the green line, the speakers by yellow (and their direction by the black lines from the yellow) and the mixer, amp, etc location indicated by blue.
Ideally, the system could average at around 90 or 95 db but peak higher and maintain slightly higher for contemporary services and/or special events.
Is there any other information that would be helpful?
Edit: I don't expect to average 90 or 95, but I would like the system to able to sustain that level.
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For permanent installs you often start by looking at where speakers can be located and based on that, what speaker pattern(s) may be appropriate in order to provide good coverage while also minimizing overlap and keeping the sound aimed at the listeners rather than at the walls or ceiling. Without knowing the speaker locations or how those relate to the listener area it is therefore difficult to comment on any proposed speakers or to make related recommendations. And without knowing the room and where speakers could be located it is usually rather difficult to determine where the speakers should be located. While nothing can beat actually being able to be in the room, it would really help to have any pictures, drawings, dimensions, etc. for the room.
Another aspect of the speaker system is the speaker output and response. As proposed to be installed, can the speakers provide sufficient output and do they have appropriate response for the intended application? There's two basic ways to approach this. One is to define related goals and select speakers that can be predicted to meet those goals. If you have any goals for the desired sound levels and/or response then knowing that that might help people with such an effort. The other option is to select speakers based solely on other criteria (size, brand, price, etc.) and then accept whatever results they provide. It really comes down to whether you have any specific goals in terms of the system output and/or response or are willing to accept whatever you get.
Of course one aspect of the speaker installation that is often relevant to installed systems is whether any speakers are to be flown or rigged overhead. That is often a desired approach in order to obtain more even coverage across the entire listener area, but it also entails having a professonal verify that you have structure to which the speakers can be safely attached and having appropriately qualified and insured parties handle the related installation.
Then there is system tuning. Getting the most from a speaker system often involves proper system optimization or tuning and that includes both having the appropriate equipment in place and having the skills and tools to apply that equipment in an effective manner. While many churches cut back on the tuning and/or related hardware to help reduce costs, just be aware that doing so quite likely negatively affects the final system performance and/or limits getting the most effective use of the speaker system hardware.
The general point is that selecting speakers for installed systems is typically approached differently than selecting them for portable systems and because you are dealing with a specific space and often specific uses, much of that difference is often in optimizing the speakers, their physical implementation and the system tuning to the specific room, acoustical environment and application(s) involved. Put simply, to get the best results for installed speaker systems it is usually not just picking good speakers for the intended use, it is also considering how the speakers will work with the intended implementation in that particular space.
In the "cart before the horse" scenario, I'd not make any commitment further than analyzing and optimizing the current setup. Too many times I've seen attempts at "improvement" jump right into "let's get a whole new system", completely bypassing the possibility that the original equipment may well work if brought up to specs and put into a more advantageous deployment.
It has been mentioned by the OP that things are not well-configured at the board and suffering from "screwy EQ"...as well as ill- or un-trained operators. New equipment will not address a basic lack of understanding and operator training. So...
I'd see how well the existing setup can be made to work. If nothing else proceeds, at least everyone involved in the "upgrade" attempt can obtain a decent grounding in "what's wrong" which will play well into doing it right with either a tweaked and tuned system or any upgrades attending.
Haste maketh waste...
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I am not as experienced as Dick, but from personal experience I would agree with working with the existing setup first. I took over a system 2o years ago that was using an outdated 12 channel BiAmp mixer, and while the main house speakers and monitors were well done, some of the other areas left a lo to be desired. Over time the BiAmp was replaced with a Mackie 32-8 for more channels and now o a A & H GL3800-48 channel-but the house speakers are still the same and this last Christmas we had a lot of visitors commenting on how good the prorgam sounded. The auditorium is roughly the same square footage as the OP's with vaulted, tin ceiling and the back wall consists of four hardwood roll-up doors that do a very nice job of reflecting sound. It is a very live space -but over the years I have learned how to tune and tweak the sound in the room to get excellent consistent results. In my opinion, getting to know the space and the program material and what is currently in place before ripping everything out will yield far better results. Though it it takes a lot more effort and is not as fun as buying and unwrapping new gear. New gear, improperly utilized will sound little better than old gear improperly utilized.
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Paul, I am not a sound contractor, but we replaced our sound system about eight years ago (partially driven by some system failures).
The absolute best thing we did was to solicit bids, and hire a professional for the final system design and installation. A good contractor will model your room(s), and pick the best solution for you. They will then optimize the solution during installation, and provide training.
I have serious doubts that we could have picked up the Full Compass / B&H / Sweetwater catalog, and gotten the same results (even now with the availability of design software, SMAART, etc). We are potentially upgrading our board this year, and I will still bring in a contractor to help pick the best option for us.
Two other thoughts. You may want some DSP in front of the amp/speakers; that board has an EQ on the main bus, but something dedicated (and lockable) may be desirable. And what would you do for crossover? And, make sure you plan for the future. You will likely outgrow a 16x2 mixer very quickly, especially one that only has 12 mic ins (some which you lose if you want the stereo ins). Repatching every time you want to do something different gets old really quickly.
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I am not as experienced as Dick, but from personal experience I would agree with working with the existing setup first. I took over a system 2o years ago that was using an outdated 12 channel BiAmp mixer, and while the main house speakers and monitors were well done, some of the other areas left a lo to be desired. Over time the BiAmp was replaced with a Mackie 32-8 for more channels and now o a A & H GL3800-48 channel-but the house speakers are still the same and this last Christmas we had a lot of visitors commenting on how good the prorgam sounded. The auditorium is roughly the same square footage as the OP's with vaulted, tin ceiling and the back wall consists of four hardwood roll-up doors that do a very nice job of reflecting sound. It is a very live space -but over the years I have learned how to tune and tweak the sound in the room to get excellent consistent results. In my opinion, getting to know the space and the program material and what is currently in place before ripping everything out will yield far better results. Though it it takes a lot more effort and is not as fun as buying and unwrapping new gear. New gear, improperly utilized will sound little better than old gear improperly utilized.
I really appreciate all of the replies. Would the speakers and/or board be in danger of imminent failure simply from length of use at anywhere from 20 -35 years? I've honestly never used gear 35 years old before on a regular basis.
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Paul, I am not a sound contractor, but we replaced our sound system about eight years ago (partially driven by some system failures).
The absolute best thing we did was to solicit bids, and hire a professional for the final system design and installation. A good contractor will model your room(s), and pick the best solution for you. They will then optimize the solution during installation, and provide training.
I have serious doubts that we could have picked up the Full Compass / B&H / Sweetwater catalog, and gotten the same results (even now with the availability of design software, SMAART, etc). We are potentially upgrading our board this year, and I will still bring in a contractor to help pick the best option for us.
Two other thoughts. You may want some DSP in front of the amp/speakers; that board has an EQ on the main bus, but something dedicated (and lockable) may be desirable. And what would you do for crossover? And, make sure you plan for the future. You will likely outgrow a 16x2 mixer very quickly, especially one that only has 12 mic ins (some which you lose if you want the stereo ins). Repatching every time you want to do something different gets old really quickly.
I was looking at the (please don't kill me) Behringer X32 after the lukewarm replies to the PreSonus. Is it any better than Behringer products of the past?
And I'll definitely look into hiring some outside help. Thanks.
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I was looking at the (please don't kill me) Behringer X32 after the lukewarm replies to the PreSonus. Is it any better than Behringer products of the past?
And I'll definitely look into hiring some outside help. Thanks.
I think it is. The X32 has been reviewed pretty well here at PSW considering, where skepticism of the brand is plentiful. It offers additional features over the Presonus options which may or may not be important to you.
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In the "cart before the horse" scenario, I'd not make any commitment further than analyzing and optimizing the current setup. Too many times I've seen attempts at "improvement" jump right into "let's get a whole new system", completely bypassing the possibility that the original equipment may well work if brought up to specs and put into a more advantageous deployment.
I agree with you wholeheartedly, however if the existing speakers are indeed like the residential B&O speakers that Paul linked earlier (http://www.beoworld.org/prod_details.asp?pid=647)then (http://www.beoworld.org/prod_details.asp?pid=647)then) and are 20-35 years old then in this case they would likely benefit from some system upgrades.
I really appreciate all of the replies. Would the speakers and/or board be in danger of imminent failure simply from length of use at anywhere from 20 -35 years? I've honestly never used gear 35 years old before on a regular basis.
How a system has been operated and maintained can affect how well a system 'ages' and a 20-35 year old system would typically be expected to have incurred some degradation to specific components such as cone surrounds and capacitors, however that does not mean the equipment is in danger of imminent failure. What is often more of an issue is how a church's needs and expectations may have changed over that 20-35 years. Most churches looking to upgrade their audio systems seem to be doing so primarily as a result of their existing systems no longer adequately serving their needs. And that is why it is often important to keep the focus on the overall goals and results rather than on the equipment itself.
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I have help setup a few church systems where the initial thought was spending money to fix it. Although each case is different, spending money is not always the answer! In one case the system was lacking the needed EQ to properly deal with all output channels, but was able to be changed in such a way that at least it was usable and functioned better than it did in the past. The beauty of it is that only the money spent for consulting was used. They were left with the options for future improvement. In general, the major downfall is the lack of user knowledge. A relatively crappy system can be made to sound pretty good these days for very little money. It requires proper processing equipment such as EQ's and X-over's, but for the most part can be made to work rather well.
As mentioned before, do yourself a favor and try and make the current system work first before writing it off! I was recently in a meeting with a local University to consult about one of their campuses. The question mark was if there system currently had the needed power to do the job. It consisted of some mid range JBL ceiling speakers in the meeting room they had. They had a very limited range of control, but would work fine in competent hands. I had worked the room a few times and knew the system was capable of what they needed. The less knowledgeable " USER'S " were the ones having a tough time with it. Un-skilled user's presented a large part of the problem. In the hands of a proficient user the system was fine. I suggested a couple of options, each of which were cheap and useful, but left them with the fact that no matter what, a better trained operator will have better results. I ran a show there a few weeks later :)
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In the "cart before the horse" scenario, I'd not make any commitment further than analyzing and optimizing the current setup. Too many times I've seen attempts at "improvement" jump right into "let's get a whole new system", completely bypassing the possibility that the original equipment may well work if brought up to specs and put into a more advantageous deployment.
In a classic case of misused equipment yielding bad results, I once attended a service at a sister church to mine. As this was a special service and I arrived late, I ended up sitting in the fellowship hall. A signal from the sanctuary PA system was fed to the PA system in the fellowship hall.
Almost immediately, I could tell things weren't working right. My first impression was of an overdriven input. After that service, I took a look at the system, and found that the signal line between the systems was connected to a speaker-level output on the sanctuary system, and to a line-level input on the fellowship hall system. This resulted in the input being overdriven. A simple repatching to a line-level output at the sanctuary system resolved the issue.
I found out later that several "experts" (probably music store salesmen ::) ) had failed to find a solution.
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I had an interesting scenario some years ago where in a short time period we had two potential Clients where we recommended that they could resolve many of their existing problems by cleaning up and optimizing the equipment they already had. One Client was happy to not have someone try to sell them another piece of gear that did not solve their problems and was very happy with the results. The other group responded quite negatively to our suggestion and my guess is that the tech staff involved were concerned that getting more out of what they already had would make them look bad and/or they simply wanted new gear to play with.
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Understanding the room is far more important than a hard list of gear. Until you understand the room's dynamic capabilities and what could or could not excite the room the gear portion is a long shot. You need to have someone in the industry come and do a modeling of the room. That way you can understand SPL, intelligible levels, and how to "paint the room" with sound hitting only what it should. It will give you a proper analysis of treatments needed and systems used to make your room gain clarity needed for the proper audio solution. You can actually see how each system will respond and react with a model. In the long term integration of the right solution will far out way the money "saved" on the DIY system, because that money will inevitably be overwhelmed with "fixes" or "redesigns."
Adam -Sound Stage Inc.
"The bitter taste of low quality will always outlast the satisfaction of low cost."
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Understanding the room is far more important than a hard list of gear. Until you understand the room's dynamic capabilities and what could or could not excite the room the gear portion is a long shot. You need to have someone in the industry come and do a modeling of the room. That way you can understand SPL, intelligible levels, and how to "paint the room" with sound hitting only what it should. It will give you a proper analysis of treatments needed and systems used to make your room gain clarity needed for the proper audio solution. You can actually see how each system will respond and react with a model. In the long term integration of the right solution will far out way the money "saved" on the DIY system, because that money will inevitably be overwhelmed with "fixes" or "redesigns."
Adam -Sound Stage Inc.
"The bitter taste of low quality will always outlast the satisfaction of low cost."
Please change your username to be your full real name, as clearly indicated in forum rules.
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I agree with what others are saying. Sometimes it's better to take a step back and look at what you have already in place to work with before you dive right into spending a whole lot of money. I have worked with churches in the past that all that was needed was some simple training and a few tweaks to the processing. But since you're talking about replacing the system I would really suggest consulting a professional before just buying something because it sounded good at a DJ party. A pro could Point you in the right direction after reviewing your style of worship and the actual venue itself. When I do church installs I always sit down with the worship leaders and tec directors to find out the needs from both groups. I also understand you have came here for advice on some types of gear... Most smaller churches that I have done installs in satisfy with a flown cluster of community speakers (Size and model depending on the style of worship an size of the room), a community subwoofer, QSC amplification, and a StudioLive. I do not suggest you try to fly any kind of speakers however without a pro! This could be very dangerous and a huge liability! But again I will say, just don't buy something because it's cheap and it puts out sound. This always comes to mind when having a discussion such as this
"Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church. (1 Corinthians 14:7-12 NIV)"
Feel Free to ask anyone up here any questions that you need answers to.
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If those are really your speakers ( the link you provided) don't waste your time with them. They are not made for live music reinforcement. Get a budget together. The JBLs you mentioned are up to the task, pretty much anything else that can handle a few hundred watts will be better. Yes you need to understand the room, yes, spend carefully. Buy quality transducers, your bangs for the buck go farthest on good speakers and microphones. Placement is key for good coverage. Hang if you can, but get a licensed contractor to perform that task.
Once you get a reasonable PA that will give you the sound levels you want for music, get your pastor a quality head-worn microphone so the spoken word can keep up with your new found level of music.
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If those are really your speakers ( the link you provided) don't waste your time with them. They are not made for live music reinforcement. Get a budget together. The JBLs you mentioned are up to the task, pretty much anything else that can handle a few hundred watts will be better.
The rated power handling is generally not as relevant as the desired speaker pattern and output. While the maximum output possible with a speaker may be limited by the maximum power rating, the power required to get a certain output is related to the speaker sensitivity rather than the rated power. The common example is that a speaker rated at 125W and 97dB at 1W/1m can get just as loud as a speaker rated at 500W and 91dB at 1W/1m, the lower power handling of the first speaker is offset by the greater sensitivity. So you usually aren't as concerned with the rated power handling of the speakers as much as you are with the potential output levels.
Placement is key for good coverage.
Speaker placement is indeed important but also goes hand-in-hand with the speaker pattern. This is one area where permanent installs differ from tour or rental type systems as rather than a flexible system that can work reasonably well in many different applications and venues, with an installed system you typically focus on optimizing the system for a specific venue and often for specific applications. Thus selecting the speakers for installed systems typically involves considering the speaker patterns and locations such that the speaker system will provide appropriate coverage for that particular space.
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I'm looking to replace pretty much every facet of the sound system in a sanctuary that is split into two sections separated by a wall that extends downward approx. 5 feet from the ceiling. The "main" room is 3750 sq. ft, of which about 1/4 is stage space. The other "room" is about 2500 sq ft, of which about 1/5 is stage space. The ceiling in both rooms is vaulted at anywhere between 30 and 40 feet. Basically, it's an acoustical nightmare.
That said, I'm not so much looking to make the sound perfect as I am looking to make the new system adequate for the space. What I'm looking at currently is:
4 Cerwin Vega INT-152 V2 speakers (2 on each side)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/997157-REG/cerwin_vega_int_152v2_int_152_v2_15_2_way.html
2 Cerwin Vega INT-118S V2 Subwoofers (1 on each side)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/997159-REG/cerwin_vega_int_118sv2_int_118s_v2_18_passive.html
3 Cerwin Vega CV-1800 amps
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/997138-REG/cerwin_vega_cv_1800_na_cv_1800_high_performance_professional.html
1 PreSonus Studio Live 16.0.2 Digital Mixer
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/763627-REG/PreSonus_STUDIOLIVE_16_0_2_StudioLive_16_0_2_Performance.html
I'm also planning some other purchases, but I'm certain on those purchases. My question is about the above listed items.
Are they adequate or overkill? Are they about right for my needs?
The system will be primarily used for regular traditional and contemporary worship services, as well as monthly movie nights and other activities.
Thanks for you input.
So I've been looking at a lot of these replys and I personally think that the Community SLS920s would do you good, as well as the single 12" QRX Subs, and a nice couple of crowns would power them nicely. Now on the mixer side if your wanting digital I personally love the Soundcraft SI Performer 2 and 3.