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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Stephen Swaffer on February 19, 2014, 11:24:54 PM

Title: Apples to apples?
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on February 19, 2014, 11:24:54 PM
Just curious-looking at your basic powered mixers for roughly the same money you can get a Peavey, Yamaha,or Behringer-but the Peavey and Yamaha's show roughly half the output power as the Behringers.  What gives?  Seems like the Behringers are overpowered for where his mixers are typically used anyway?

Title: Re: Apples to apples?
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on February 19, 2014, 11:31:17 PM
Just curious-looking at your basic powered mixers for roughly the same money you can get a Peavey, Yamaha,or Behringer-but the Peavey and Yamaha's show roughly half the output power as the Behringers.  What gives?  Seems like the Behringers are overpowered for where his mixers are typically used anyway?

Here us the specs page for a "3000 Watt" amplifier.  How can anyone really figure out what they need to know when the specs are so exaggerated. 
http://geminisound.com/product/xga-3000
Title: Re: Apples to apples?
Post by: Lyle Williams on February 20, 2014, 01:26:54 AM
If the PA equipment business was as shady with dollar numbers as watt numbers they'd all be in gaol inside a week.

Watts AES, watts RMS, watts program, watts peak, watts PMPO?  A sliding scale of ways to measure and market.  And that's before you decide if the number was measured under optomistic conditions or just exagerated.
Title: Re: Apples to apples?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 20, 2014, 07:37:07 AM
It all depends on how you calculate "watts".

Generally it is RMS reading of a sine wave voltage into a particular load impedance.

HOWEVER if you get "creative" you can "figure" using the peak of the voltage waveform instead of the RMS-and THEN you can double that to get the Peak to peak.

So a 20V RMS into an 8 ohm load is 50 watts real.

But if you use the calculation above you get 400 watts.

Then if you just "throw in" 6dB for a peak that who knows where it comes from (like some loudspeaker manufacturers do) you get 1600 watts out of a real 50 watt amp.

SEE-simple marketing-----------------------------

And if people are comparing its actual output to others in the same price range-they get the same result and nobody is the wiser-----------

And then they wonder why those "big amp companies" are trying to "rip them off".

I guess as long as you hook them up to speakers in the same price category-you will have a good "match".
Title: Re: Apples to apples?
Post by: Jamin Lynch on February 20, 2014, 07:45:59 AM
It all depends on how you calculate "watts".

Generally it is RMS reading of a sine wave voltage into a particular load impedance.

HOWEVER if you get "creative" you can "figure" using the peak of the voltage waveform instead of the RMS-and THEN you can double that to get the Peak to peak.

So a 20V RMS into an 8 ohm load is 50 watts real.

But if you use the calculation above you get 400 watts.

Then if you just "throw in" 6dB for a peak that who knows where it comes from (like some loudspeaker manufacturers do) you get 1600 watts out of a real 50 watt amp.

SEE-simple marketing-----------------------------

And if people are comparing its actual output to others in the same price range-they get the same result and nobody is the wiser-----------

And then they wonder why those "big amp companies" are trying to "rip them off".

I guess as long as you hook them up to speakers in the same price category-you will have a good "match".

Power your cheap speakers with a cheap amp and power your expensive speakers with an expensive amp and you'll be OK. LOL  :o
Title: Re: Apples to apples?
Post by: Chris Hindle on February 20, 2014, 08:44:02 AM
Many (ok, many, many) years ago, I was at a local "electronic / electric superstore / clearance outlet" kind of place. They had a couple of 5 way behemoths that had just come in, with a big sign overhead saying proclaiming 2,000 watts. Didn't say each, or pair, whatever.
You know the kind.... 10 piezo's across the top......
I told the salesdude that I had a show that night, and if I could rent them.
He asked what amp I was going to use. EX-4000 I said.
He said "No, these only work with home amps, no pro gear"
Riiiight...  Not a lot of 1,000 watt home amps, where the owner is likely to shop at Addison for speakers.......
He did offer me a home-built Dynaco that would "really go good with these boxes"

Apples to apples... what a concept
Title: Re: Apples to apples?
Post by: Steve M Smith on February 20, 2014, 08:49:58 AM
These are what I refer to as 'salesman's watts'.


Steve.
Title: Re: Apples to apples?
Post by: Bob Leonard on February 20, 2014, 09:17:14 AM
How about that. The Peavey is rated 1/2 the output of the "B" box. Those little Peavey heads are built like a brick shithouse, will last forever, and the specs are honest. Buy the Peavey.
Title: Re: Apples to apples?
Post by: Sammy Barr on February 20, 2014, 09:59:13 AM
We have a Several Peaveys, a yamaha and a behringer at the college where I work. The behringer is the weak link. It does not sound as good or have the output of the Peaveys regardless of specs. The Peavey would be my first choice followed closely by the Yamaha.
Title: Re: Apples to apples?
Post by: Steve M Smith on February 20, 2014, 10:02:49 AM
Those little Peavey heads are built like a brick shithouse

They certainly are.  We use an old XR600 and I have a couple of friends who 'upgraded' to the XR684 about fifteen years ago.  One is now back to using an XR600 and the other is using an XR500.


Steve.
Title: Re: Apples to apples?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on February 20, 2014, 10:26:01 AM
Just curious-looking at your basic powered mixers for roughly the same money you can get a Peavey, Yamaha,or Behringer-but the Peavey and Yamaha's show roughly half the output power as the Behringers.  What gives?  Seems like the Behringers are overpowered for where his mixers are typically used anyway?

Back when I was engineering manager or product manager over powered mixers I could give you an answer from personal inspection. These days I do not have first hand experience with these models, nor do I really care.

I hope that the new Behringer is not inflating their wattage if they want to be taken seriously, and I do not expect that they are.

The obvious thing is to check the spec sheet and look for any fine print. Power amp companies have not been free to make up their own power metrics for years***. UL and agency testers will test the products based on their reported power output. Since the safety agencies do not read magazine ads, it is often important to look at power numbers and speaker load minimums, screened on to the back of the unit. These will be  real numbers.

Perhaps the Behringer does have twice the power of the Peavey and Yamaha. They are a low cost manufacturer, and there is a new trend in the industry for low cost power amps that should evolve down into powered heads.  I don't expect Behringer to be half the manufacturing cost of Yamaha or Peavey, but power amplifier cost is not linear, i.e. bigger amps are cheaper per watt than small amps.

When trying to compete against well established players you need to come up with a merchantable difference to win that contest. You can offer the same for significantly less cost, or more for the same cost. If the amp power is the most important feature to you, the Behringer sounds like your mixer. Good luck.

JR

*** there is an unwritten specification covering amplifier duty cycle, or how long it can play how loud without shutting down. Again I do not know if all three have similar long term duty cycle. Some of the new amp technologies are more efficient so should do better at this metric. While old school amp technology is time proven reliable by many users over several decades.


Title: Re: Apples to apples?
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on February 20, 2014, 10:38:03 AM
For the record, when you view an item description, then B box lists as 900 watts, the Peavey as 400.  Specs actually list as: B box 2 X 160 watts into 8 ohms, Peavey 2 X 120 into 8 ohms.  A little closer-probably not really a meaningful difference.

I know these are cheap units-but no need to use a Sherman tank to kill a fly!  For what this is for it is the right tool, IMO.
Title: Re: Apples to apples?
Post by: john sanders on February 20, 2014, 10:44:49 AM
How about that. The Peavey is rated 1/2 the output of the "B" box. Those little Peavey heads are built like a brick shithouse, will last forever, and the specs are honest. Buy the Peavey.

Purchase the Peavey! Agree with Bob totally.
Title: Re: Apples to apples?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on February 20, 2014, 11:29:10 AM
For the record, when you view an item description, then B box lists as 900 watts, the Peavey as 400.  Specs actually list as: B box 2 X 160 watts into 8 ohms, Peavey 2 X 120 into 8 ohms.  A little closer-probably not really a meaningful difference.

I know these are cheap units-but no need to use a Sherman tank to kill a fly!  For what this is for it is the right tool, IMO.

Based in those numbers that is 1.25 dB more power...  Other factors will likely be more significant than that...

JR
Title: Re: Apples to apples?
Post by: Tommy Peel on February 20, 2014, 12:04:28 PM
My band uses a Mackie 808S box mixer/amp mostly just for it's power amps though on simple gigs we'll use it as a mixer too. We normally run it in stereo with the L/R from our Mackie Onyx feeding L & R power amps. Here are some excepts from the spec sheet...

(http://i.imgur.com/yRdEKCE.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/eP9dnmk.png)

So essentially we get about 300 watts per speaker(600 Total) with our setup of one 8Ω cabinet per channel.
Title: Re: Apples to apples?
Post by: Scott Olewiler on February 20, 2014, 05:55:20 PM
Just curious-looking at your basic powered mixers for roughly the same money you can get a Peavey, Yamaha,or Behringer-but the Peavey and Yamaha's show roughly half the output power as the Behringers.  What gives?  Seems like the Behringers are overpowered for where his mixers are typically used anyway?

I'm not sure how other posters have figured out which models you are referring to since you did not state, but I would not buy anything until you've taken a look at Carvin powered mixers. After owning numerous small Yamaha and Peavey powered mixers that I really enjoyed, I still like the Carvin I have the best.  But you can't go wrong with a Yamaha or a Peavey for a basic mixer. The Yammies sound great and the Peaveys are built to last.
Title: Re: Apples to apples?
Post by: Mark Mattocks on February 23, 2014, 06:59:35 PM
Here us the specs page for a "3000 Watt" amplifier.  How can anyone really figure out what they need to know when the specs are so exaggerated. 
http://geminisound.com/product/xga-3000


The most accurate part of this spec is listing the THD as 'Greater Than' .1% instead of <. 

Very nice.