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Church and H.O.W. – Forums for HOW Sound and AV - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Church and HOW Forums => Church Sound => Topic started by: Jason Lucas on January 28, 2013, 04:17:35 PM

Title: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 28, 2013, 04:17:35 PM
So, regardless of what room we move to, and regardless of what we eventually wind up with for our permanent speaker system, we want to replace our "travel" speakers that we've been using as mains for the past 4 years. We really are not very happy with their sound (or their durability, for that matter).

I've compiled a list of speakers in various price ranges that I think could be good candidates.

My requirements were for passive cabs, up to $3000, with a nominal coverage pattern of at least 90 x 50, pole-mountable, and I tended towards 2-way systems with 12" woofers. I also looked for flyable models when I could.

The resulting list (including amps matched to the program rating) is below:

SpeakersPriceRatingAmpsPriceRating
EV Live X ELX112$300500wCrown XLS 1500$399525w
Yamaha C112V$350350wCrown XLS 1000$299350w
JBL PRX412M$500600wQSC GX5$400700w
Peavey SSE 12$530500wCrown XLS 1500$399525w
EV Tour X TX1122$7301000wQSC GX7$600 1000w
EV ZX3$9001200wPeavey IPR 5000$7001510w
JBL AE AC2212$1,024500wCrown XLS 1500$399525w
EV EVF-1122S$1,1921000wQSC GX7$600 1000w
JBL AE AM5212$1,520600wQSC GX5$400700w
RCF TT22$2,049800wCrown Xti 2002$699800w
EV EVF-1122D$2,0811200wPeavey IPR 5000$7001510w
JBL AE AM7212$2,4001200wPeavey IPR 5000$7001510w
SubsPriceRatingAmpsPriceRating
Yamaha CW115V$400500wCrown XLS 1500$399525w
EV ELX118$500800wCrown Xti 2002$699800w
EV ZX1-Sub$500800wCrown Xti 2002$699800w
Yamaha CW118V$500600wQSC GX5$400700w
EV TX1181$7501000wQSC GX7$6001000w
JBL PRX418S$7501600wPeavey IPR 5000$7001510w
RCF S8018$1,2002000wPeavey IPR 7500$8002022w
EV EVF-1181S$1,500800wCrown Xti 2002$699800w
JBL AL7115$1,5002000wPeavey IPR 7500$8002022w
JBL ASB6115$1,5001600wPeavey IPR 5000   $7001510w
JBL ASB6118$2,0002400wCrown I-T5000 HD$6,0002500w
JBL ASB7118$3,0004000wCrown MA-9000i$5,7003500w
System ProcessorsPrice Range
dbx DriveRack PA$250-$400
Peavey VSX 26$450
dbx DriveRack PA+$319-$500
TC Electronic XO24$799
dbx DriveRack 260$600-$1000

Any other suggestions? Anything in the list you'd recommend against?
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Josh Daws on January 28, 2013, 06:38:33 PM
i suggest you go to you local installer that sells this equipment. get them to do a site visit and make recommendations. My reason for suggesting to do this is that we could unknowingly suggest the wrong product for your needs.

we can give a good suggestion, but to say this speaker is better than this for x reason, you should really consult your local intallation dealer.

BTW - that is a really extensive and good list...
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 28, 2013, 06:40:25 PM
The church leadership has made it pretty clear to me that they don't think bringing someone in for that is worth the cost. So unless someone is willing to come in and tell us what we need for free, then that idea's out.

I've talked about this in previous threads a little bit, and as much as we all know that it would be better to just do things by the book, I can see where the leadership is coming from.

This church has been around for a little over 20 years now. They've had sound reinforcement in some shape or form for the past 15. At first the goal was simply to have sound that worked, but as they got better equipment and more competent volunteers we moved from having working sound to having sound that was almost sort of kind of okay to having sound that wasn't half bad.

Fast forward to about 3 years ago when our main loudspeakers blew out and our Mackie TT24 got swirlies and wiped everything. We replaced the Mackie with a Roland digital console complete with digital snakes, and we replaced our dead speakers with the JBL PRX 535s that we had boxed up in the back room, for use at retreats and such. Since the PRXs sounded good enough (in fact they sounded better than our old mains), we continued to use them.

So for a good 3 years, our sound has been "good enough" it hasn't been fantastic or anything, but it's better than a lot of churches our size, for sure.

Now, everyone involved in production at the church really wants better sounding speakers. There's a pretty unanimous opinion that the ones we have now are really not that great.

If we get new speakers with the same coverage patterns as our current speakers, placed in the same spots, but are better sounding, I can't imagine our sound wouldn't be better. Even if it's not by all that much.

My point here is that even though we'd see a much bigger improvement by not just getting better sounding speakers, but getting the right speakers for our application, and putting them in the proper location, that we should still see improvement even if the only thing that changes is that the speakers themselves sound better.

So long as our sound is "good enough" without the help of a professional, I seriously doubt they will bring one in. My hope is that they'll come around, but I'm not going to bank on it.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Scott Wagner on January 28, 2013, 08:09:17 PM
If we get new speakers with the same coverage patterns as our current speakers, placed in the same spots, but are better sounding, I can't imagine our sound wouldn't be better. Even if it's not by all that much.

My point here is that even though we'd see a much bigger improvement by not just getting better sounding speakers, but getting the right speakers for our application, and putting them in the proper location, that we should still see improvement even if the only thing that changes is that the speakers themselves sound better.

So long as our sound is "good enough" without the help of a professional, I seriously doubt they will bring one in. My hope is that they'll come around, but I'm not going to bank on it.
The PRX line isn't the best out there, but if it doesn't sound good with those, I doubt better speakers with the same coverage pattern deployed in the same way will make much of difference.  The most likely senario is that the pattern and deployment of the current speakers is the majority of what is "wrong" with your system.  Bringing in a professional would help address that (and many other) potential problem.  A professional will give you proper product choice, proper numbers, proper deployment, and proper tuning.  The problem is that the leadership wants "better sound", but they don't want to bring in any expertise to achieve that goal.  Given that particular situation, they likely won't be impressed with their results.  If improvements in sound quality are important, bring in a professional.  If they are not important, don't change a thing (except, perhaps, to try different speaker placement and tuning until you find some noticable improvement).  There's no use wasting the church's money on a lateral move (no matter how expensive it is).
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 28, 2013, 08:24:08 PM
The PRX line isn't the best out there, but if it doesn't sound good with those, I doubt better speakers with the same coverage pattern deployed in the same way will make much of difference.  The most likely senario is that the pattern and deployment of the current speakers is the majority of what is "wrong" with your system.  Bringing in a professional would help address that (and many other) potential problem.  A professional will give you proper product choice, proper numbers, proper deployment, and proper tuning.  The problem is that the leadership wants "better sound", but they don't want to bring in any expertise to achieve that goal.  Given that particular situation, they likely won't be impressed with their results.  If improvements in sound quality are important, bring in a professional.  If they are not important, don't change a thing (except, perhaps, to try different speaker placement and tuning until you find some noticable improvement).  There's no use wasting the church's money on a lateral move (no matter how expensive it is).

I understand that. As I have mentioned before, I completely support the idea of bringing in a professional. I just haven't been able to convince the church to bring one in.

I think just the DSP alone will give us some pretty significant improvement. Right now we're using the built-in crossover in our powered subwoofer and I don't think it's very steep because it seems like we're still getting overlap (microphones will feedback through the sub with any high pass filter setting below 280Hz).

As far as coverage I'm hoping for something around 120 x 60, which some of those speakers mentioned above have.

To be honest, I think our room's acoustics are a bigger problem than the speakers, but the amount of treatment it would take to really "fix" the room is far greater than the amount we want to spend on a building we're going to be in for less than 2 years.

As far as the placement of the speakers, we are extremely limited in our options of where to put the speakers, since they're pole-mounted. If we had fly-able speakers that might be a different case.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 28, 2013, 08:41:21 PM
Good luck to all concerned.

Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: AllenDeneau on January 28, 2013, 08:49:42 PM
i suggest you go to you local installer that sells this equipment. get them to do a site visit and make recommendations. My reason for suggesting to do this is that we could unknowingly suggest the wrong product for your needs.

we can give a good suggestion, but to say this speaker is better than this for x reason, you should really consult your local intallation dealer.

BTW - that is a really extensive and good list...

+1 to the above...

I understand where you're coming from Jason. Before we moved, our Church back home was in the middle of a $7,000,000 building project for phase 1, sanctuary and offices only, and regardless of what I said and how much I pleaded with them to bring an acoustical designer and integrator into help in the building design as well as a system design, they refused putting little to no importance on getting the right tools for the job :( My forehead was so sore from all the banging it on the wall.... We had TC Furlong right down the road ready to help.

Anyway, I'm sure you came at the suggestion this way but just in case, have you explained that having someone come in and measure the room acoustically they may find that it is just speaker placement or treatments and the fix could be under the $3k mark, saving them money and being better stewards of the Church's $$$?

I'm just beginning to work with our current Church's sound team and when I get the opportunity I'll be suggesting to bring someone in because I'm CERTAIN the issues we have is speaker deployment along with a few other things I can correct such as the board and DBX routing...

The only piece of gear I'm going to suggest against is the Driverack PA+. I had the DR PA and really didn't like it. I didn't like it's sound nor was it as flexible as I wanted. If I were to go Driverack again it'd be the 260 at a minimum or the 480, I've heard that the 480 sounds a ton better.. In my own system I'm implementing the Peavey VSX26 which I seem to like a lot so far...

Good luck.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 28, 2013, 09:01:48 PM
Even if our biggest problem was speaker placement, there's really nothing we can do about it with our current speakers. If we get flyable ones, then maybe.

Treatment is out the window because we're going to be in this building for less than two years and the amount of treatment we would need is pretty cost-prohibitive.

About the driverack you're right, I haven't heard that many good things about the DRPA or PA+. People say good things about the 260 but it's pricey. The Peavey looks like it might be a good option.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Josh Daws on January 28, 2013, 11:44:27 PM
Even if our biggest problem was speaker placement, there's really nothing we can do about it with our current speakers. If we get flyable ones, then maybe.

Treatment is out the window because we're going to be in this building for less than two years and the amount of treatment we would need is pretty cost-prohibitive.

About the driverack you're right, I haven't heard that many good things about the DRPA or PA+. People say good things about the 260 but it's pricey. The Peavey looks like it might be a good option.

take this into consideration...you are about to waste money...if you are going to be out of the building in LESS than 2 years time, those speakers will more than be no longer applicable (maybe useful elsewhere) to you "new" venue. in which you will have to purchase a new FOH system.

i don't mean to sound blunt,  i would rather give my blunt, honest, and straight up advice, then beat around the bush telling you my opinions on speakers in which probably wont work how you would like. you will also find that speakers will sound completely different on the ground, versus flown.

if i were to recommend ANY speaker is would be JBL VRX series. you will spend at least $2500 a cabinet, but this series has great coverage and plenty of power. and also horn throw selection switch. and if you get the crown I-TECH 4x3500 amp this will negate any need for a Driverack. its networkable and you will have enough power to run2 tops and 2 subs per side, which is more than enough system to go into any venue space. and the VRX Series are flyable. DO NOT just by any regular speaker cabinet that has holes for fly points, it probably wont suit your FUTURE needs..

so you got my recommendation...but my EVEN MORE HONEST recommendation is to wait until you are in your new venue, and get a PA system that will work with that system. and go passive! :)

Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on January 29, 2013, 09:45:55 AM
So, regardless of what room we move to, and regardless of what we eventually wind up with for our permanent speaker system, we want to replace our "travel" speakers that we've been using as mains for the past 4 years. We really are not very happy with their sound (or their durability, for that matter).

I've compiled a list of speakers in various price ranges that I think could be good candidates.

My requirements were for passive cabs, up to $3000, with a nominal coverage pattern of at least 90 x 50, pole-mountable, and I tended towards 2-way systems with 12" woofers. I also looked for flyable models when I could.

The resulting list (including amps matched to the program rating) is below:

SpeakersPriceRatingAmpsPriceRating
EV Live X ELX112$300500wCrown XLS 1500$399525w
Yamaha C112V$350350wCrown XLS 1000$299350w
JBL PRX412M$500600wQSC GX5$400700w
Peavey SSE 12$530500wCrown XLS 1500$399525w
EV Tour X TX1122$7301000wQSC GX7$600 1000w
EV ZX3$9001200wPeavey IPR 5000$7001510w
JBL AE AC2212$1,024500wCrown XLS 1500$399525w
EV EVF-1122S$1,1921000wQSC GX7$600 1000w
JBL AE AM5212$1,520600wQSC GX5$400700w
RCF TT22$2,049800wCrown Xti 2002$699800w
EV EVF-1122D$2,0811200wPeavey IPR 5000$7001510w
JBL AE AM7212$2,4001200wPeavey IPR 5000$7001510w
SubsPriceRatingAmpsPriceRating
Yamaha CW115V$400500wCrown XLS 1500$399525w
EV ELX118$500800wCrown Xti 2002$699800w
EV ZX1-Sub$500800wCrown Xti 2002$699800w
Yamaha CW118V$500600wQSC GX5$400700w
EV TX1181$7501000wQSC GX7$6001000w
JBL PRX418S$7501600wPeavey IPR 5000$7001510w
RCF S8018$1,2002000wPeavey IPR 7500$8002022w
EV EVF-1181S$1,500800wCrown Xti 2002$699800w
JBL AL7115$1,5002000wPeavey IPR 7500$8002022w
JBL ASB6115$1,5001600wPeavey IPR 5000   $7001510w
JBL ASB6118$2,0002400wCrown I-T5000 HD$6,0002500w
JBL ASB7118$3,0004000wCrown MA-9000i$5,7003500w
System ProcessorsPrice Range
dbx DriveRack PA$250-$400
Peavey VSX 26$450
dbx DriveRack PA+$319-$500
TC Electronic XO24$799
dbx DriveRack 260$600-$1000

Any other suggestions? Anything in the list you'd recommend against?
Hi Jason.  You've done some research, but many options on your list aren't better than what you already have, and a few are MUCH worse.  I agree that it's doubtful you'll be able to be confident that anything you buy today will be the right fit for a hypothetical building at some point in the future.  If you really have a problem that different speakers can solve, I'd suggest getting something right for your current situation, and not worry about a future situation. 

What is that problem by the way? I don't think you've said.  Why passive?  If only so that you could potentially re-use them in a permanent install, I'd skip this.  It's significantly more difficult to make a passive system sound good (especially a cheap one) compared to an active system where the manufacturer has already done a lot of the box tuning and alignment.

Is $3000 for each speaker, or for a pair plus an amp?  If $3000 total, you're probably already toast.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Scott Wagner on January 29, 2013, 09:57:22 AM
Even if our biggest problem was speaker placement, there's really nothing we can do about it with our current speakers. If we get flyable ones, then maybe.
I recently did a charity concert in a local church that is infamous for its poor acoustics.  I, of course, brought my own rig; however, it wasn't much different than the house rig.  The biggest difference is that I deployed my speakers forward of the back wall and away from the corners.  That simple move of a few feet turned a sound nightmare into a dream - nothing but compliments all night long.  The church decision makers all assumed that the difference was my equipment.  The reality is that my simple (and free) changes in deployment mitigated most of the troublesome reflections and boundary interaction resulting in MUCH better sound.  Knowledge is much harder to aquire than new toys (and surely isn't as flashy), but it makes a much greater difference.

In your situation, with a move on the horizon, I'd recommend that you experiment with your speaker deployment (and NOT spend any money).  The beauty of SOS (speakers on sticks) is that they are portable - use that to your advantage.  In the meantime, try to convince the powers-that-be to engage a professional in the design, planning, and deployment for the new facility.  Believe it or not, but it WILL save the church money in the long run.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 29, 2013, 11:17:20 AM
Hi Jason.  You've done some research, but many options on your list aren't better than what you already have, and a few are MUCH worse.  I agree that it's doubtful you'll be able to be confident that anything you buy today will be the right fit for a hypothetical building at some point in the future.  If you really have a problem that different speakers can solve, I'd suggest getting something right for your current situation, and not worry about a future situation. 

What is that problem by the way? I don't think you've said.  Why passive?  If only so that you could potentially re-use them in a permanent install, I'd skip this.  It's significantly more difficult to make a passive system sound good (especially a cheap one) compared to an active system where the manufacturer has already done a lot of the box tuning and alignment.

Is $3000 for each speaker, or for a pair plus an amp?  If $3000 total, you're probably already toast.

Passive speakers are more portable because they don't have to be near an outlet, and there's only one cable. With passive speakers the components are separate, and you can upgrade them individually.

If we were buying new speakers I would not want to get ones that were specifically setup for our room, because they probably won't work for the new room. Since we take our speakers with us on retreats, we still need a good portable system, and I think we could do better than the PRX.

I recently did a charity concert in a local church that is infamous for its poor acoustics.  I, of course, brought my own rig; however, it wasn't much different than the house rig.  The biggest difference is that I deployed my speakers forward of the back wall and away from the corners.  That simple move of a few feet turned a sound nightmare into a dream - nothing but compliments all night long.  The church decision makers all assumed that the difference was my equipment.  The reality is that my simple (and free) changes in deployment mitigated most of the troublesome reflections and boundary interaction resulting in MUCH better sound.  Knowledge is much harder to aquire than new toys (and surely isn't as flashy), but it makes a much greater difference.

In your situation, with a move on the horizon, I'd recommend that you experiment with your speaker deployment (and NOT spend any money).  The beauty of SOS (speakers on sticks) is that they are portable - use that to your advantage.  In the meantime, try to convince the powers-that-be to engage a professional in the design, planning, and deployment for the new facility.  Believe it or not, but it WILL save the church money in the long run.

We have like less than 5 feet of space within which we can move our speakers.

This is how the JBLs are setup:

View from balcony (http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/5527/img20120708114243.jpg)
View from back row, center aisle (http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/4827/img20120708114359.jpg)
View from sound booth (http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/5086/img20120708114336.jpg)
Looking left from Pastor's seat (http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/6808/img20120708114434.jpg)
Looking right from Pastor's seat (http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/4386/img20120708114443.jpg)
View from back row, right aisle (http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/9879/img20120708114512.jpg)

We've turned them inward as much as we can without the outer aisles losing too much direct sound. We've also tried moving the speakers closer to the center of the stage but no one liked it.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Josh Daws on January 29, 2013, 11:37:35 AM
JBL VRX if you wish to fly them, OR SRX if you don't...you can save a little bit of money there...

you will want something of a line array type configuration IMO. you will get better coverage...there is also very few cheap line array speakers...

however the new PRX 600 series is considerably better than the previous 500 series...
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on January 29, 2013, 12:12:14 PM
JBL VRX if you wish to fly them, OR SRX if you don't...you can save a little bit of money there...

you will want something of a line array type configuration IMO. you will get better coverage...there is also very few cheap line array speakers...

however the new PRX 600 series is considerably better than the previous 500 series...
?? Why does he want a "line array"?  I can see nothing about this room that would be better with a line array.  VRX is not a line array, anyway.  SRX has been discontinued, STX will blow the $3K budget, and (IMO) not sound as good as what he's already using without some tuning and a reasonable amp/DSP.

To fix any real problems in this room would require installing speakers in a reasonable location, and choosing speakers that fit the coverage requirements of the room.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on January 29, 2013, 12:15:58 PM
Passive speakers are more portable because they don't have to be near an outlet, and there's only one cable. With passive speakers the components are separate, and you can upgrade them individually.

If we were buying new speakers I would not want to get ones that were specifically setup for our room, because they probably won't work for the new room. Since we take our speakers with us on retreats, we still need a good portable system, and I think we could do better than the PRX.

We have like less than 5 feet of space within which we can move our speakers.

This is how the JBLs are setup:

View from balcony (http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/5527/img20120708114243.jpg)
View from back row, center aisle (http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/4827/img20120708114359.jpg)
View from sound booth (http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/5086/img20120708114336.jpg)
Looking left from Pastor's seat (http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/6808/img20120708114434.jpg)
Looking right from Pastor's seat (http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/4386/img20120708114443.jpg)
View from back row, right aisle (http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/9879/img20120708114512.jpg)

We've turned them inward as much as we can without the outer aisles losing too much direct sound. We've also tried moving the speakers closer to the center of the stage but no one liked it.
You still haven't told us what's wrong with what you have - i.e. not clear, not loud enough, coverage holes, too loud at front, too quiet at back, not enough bass, etc. 

Passive speakers aren't really any more portable than active - I would argue the reverse.  For portable use, passive speakers mean hauling around an amp rack, while active it's inside.  As to the two cables thing - several vendors make a combo XLR/power cable if that really bothers you.

If your whole budget is $3K, you're not going to do better than what you have.  If your budget is $10K you could get a great Nexo PS15 system, JBL VP series, and a few other choices I'm sure.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 29, 2013, 12:29:35 PM
You still haven't told us what's wrong with what you have - i.e. not clear, not loud enough, coverage holes, too loud at front, too quiet at back, not enough bass, etc. 

After looking at the pictures and seeing the huge, flat slabs of ceiling angled in at the seating area, I'd say it's a lose-lose situation IF the musicians idea of "joyful noise" is "high SPL".  In a room like that, the majority of seating will be in the reverberative field, not the direct field.  The louder the source, the more reverberation and the less intelligibility/clarity.

Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 29, 2013, 12:48:56 PM
You still haven't told us what's wrong with what you have - i.e. not clear, not loud enough, coverage holes, too loud at front, too quiet at back, not enough bass, etc. 

Passive speakers aren't really any more portable than active - I would argue the reverse.  For portable use, passive speakers mean hauling around an amp rack, while active it's inside.  As to the two cables thing - several vendors make a combo XLR/power cable if that really bothers you.

If your whole budget is $3K, you're not going to do better than what you have.  If your budget is $10K you could get a great Nexo PS15 system, JBL VP series, and a few other choices I'm sure.

Well, first of all, me, the other sound guys, the band leader and even the senior pastor don't think the JBLs sound all that great. So, there's that.

The speakers also don't appear to provide enough coverage for our room, so we have to run that center cluster you can see flown from the ceiling in the pictures posted above. The center cluster sounds pretty awful, but it's needed in order to cover the whole room. We've tried running without it but then the people in the center can't hear the vocals.

**We don't have any issues with things being too quiet. Our system easily puts out enough SPL for us (although I'd like to be able to feel the kick drum without triggering the limiter on the sub...)**

The PRX cabs also don't seem very durable. While we haven't "babied" them, we also haven't really abused them, but they're showing a lot of wear and tear for the length of time we've had them.

We have to haul a rack anyway because of our mic receivers and floor monitor amps. Besides, they make amps that weigh less than 20 pounds now. So I still believe passive speakers are more portable.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 29, 2013, 01:16:34 PM
Well, first of all, me, the other sound guys, the band leader and even the senior pastor don't think the JBLs sound all that great. So, there's that.

The speakers also don't appear to provide enough coverage for our room, so we have to run that center cluster you can see flown from the ceiling in the pictures posted above. The center cluster sounds pretty awful, but it's needed in order to cover the whole room. We've tried running without it but then the people in the center can't hear the vocals.

As for the low end - the bass is much stronger in the sides than in the middle of the room. As you move from the center aisle to either of the outer aisles, the bass gets stronger and then weaker again as you move back to the middle. It's pretty consistent from front to back, though.

**We don't have any issues with things being too quiet. Our system easily puts out enough SPL for us (although I'd like to be able to feel the kick drum without triggering the limiter on the sub...)**

The PRX cabs also don't seem very durable. While we haven't "babied" them, we also haven't really abused them, but they're showing a lot of wear and tear for the length of time we've had them.

We have to haul a rack anyway because of our mic receivers and floor monitor amps. Besides, they make amps that weigh less than 20 pounds now. So I still believe passive speakers are more portable.

Jason....

I'm going to say one last thing and then sign off on your various threads.

You're looking for a technical solution to a human problem.  Throwing money and gear at the situation is not going to help until you all learn how to and how NOT to do sound IN AN ENCLOSED SPACE.

First (and majorly), you've got MULTIPLE SOURCES FOR THE SAME SOUND.  You've got the cluster, your "mains" and any stage sound (at whatever level).  This is the ingredients list for MUD.

Secondly (and this is an informed speculation on my part), you're attempting to "mix" all the instruments and people through the system as you imagine that's how sound is done.

One reliable solution to all this is to simply put your mains where they belong REGARDLESS OF WHETHER PEOPLE LIKE IT OR NOT, shut off the center cluster, bring the vocals up where they are nice and clear and can be heard over the largest part of the seating area.  Then and ONLY THEN, add in the instruments WITHOUT THE SOUND SYSTEM.  If there is anything "missing" at that point, delicately add it into the mains.

Bottom line is you're doing things in a way that is destined to fail NO MATTER HOW MUCH MONEY YOU THROW DOWN THE TOILET. 

It's not the gear.  It's how you're (mis)using it.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 29, 2013, 01:36:24 PM
Jason....

I'm going to say one last thing and then sign off on your various threads.

You're looking for a technical solution to a human problem.  Throwing money and gear at the situation is not going to help until you all learn how to and how NOT to do sound IN AN ENCLOSED SPACE.

First (and majorly), you've got MULTIPLE SOURCES FOR THE SAME SOUND.  You've got the cluster, your "mains" and any stage sound (at whatever level).  This is the ingredients list for MUD.

Secondly (and this is an informed speculation on my part), you're attempting to "mix" all the instruments and people through the system as you imagine that's how sound is done.

One reliable solution to all this is to simply put your mains where they belong REGARDLESS OF WHETHER PEOPLE LIKE IT OR NOT, shut off the center cluster, bring the vocals up where they are nice and clear and can be heard over the largest part of the seating area.  Then and ONLY THEN, add in the instruments WITHOUT THE SOUND SYSTEM.  If there is anything "missing" at that point, delicately add it into the mains.

Bottom line is you're doing things in a way that is destined to fail NO MATTER HOW MUCH MONEY YOU THROW DOWN THE TOILET. 

It's not the gear.  It's how you're (mis)using it.

Actually the end goal IS to "mix" all of the instruments and people through the system. Once we have IEMs and take the guitar amps off stage that will be the case.

I am completely aware that we have multiple sources for the same sound and that it's creating mud. If I could do anything about it I would. But we don't have enough coverage from the JBLs, and we don't have good IEMs for the guitar players.

Believe it or not, out of every configuration we've attempted, this is the best we've been able to come up with. How it sounds now is the best it's ever sounded in this building.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on January 29, 2013, 01:48:00 PM
Actually the end goal IS to "mix" all of the instruments and people through the system. Once we have IEMs and take the guitar amps off stage that will be the case.

I am completely aware that we have multiple sources for the same sound and that it's creating mud. If I could do anything about it I would. But we don't have enough coverage from the JBLs, and we don't have good IEMs for the guitar players.

Believe it or not, out of every configuration we've attempted, this is the best we've been able to come up with. How it sounds now is the best it's ever sounded in this building.
Sounds like applying your $3K to IEMs might be a good start.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 29, 2013, 01:55:13 PM
Sounds like applying your $3K to IEMs might be a good start.

Those are first on the list, for sure. And we actually may have found a system that will work really well for us, I'm taking the man in charge down to our local pro audio shop to check it out.
Title: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Samuel Rees on January 29, 2013, 02:04:27 PM
I think just the DSP alone will give us some pretty significant improvement. Right now we're using the built-in crossover in our powered subwoofer and I don't think it's very steep because it seems like we're still getting overlap (microphones will feedback through the sub with any high pass filter setting below 280Hz).

I don't think you can spend a cent until you get this system working properly. That's a crazy problem gear won't fix... any PRX system can be configured at least well enough (not like that) without a separate system processor if you at least have parametrics on your output (which it sounds like you do).
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 29, 2013, 02:18:18 PM
I don't think you can spend a cent until you get this system working properly. That's a crazy problem gear won't fix... any PRX system can be configured at least well enough (not like that) without a separate system processor if you at least have parametrics on your output (which it sounds like you do).

We used to do AUX-fed subs and just high passed the mains and low passed the sub with the PEQs in the board. It didn't sound as good though.
Title: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Samuel Rees on January 29, 2013, 02:54:33 PM
Jason, it's so much more than aux fed v.  full range. It doesn't matter. Especially with an equipped digital desk you should not be putting a 280 Hz HPF on PRX mains. The woofer in the 535 has got to be crossed internally at 300 or so right??? You've nearly reached it! It be hard to swallow but you have not even got this rig working right. You can spend $3000 or whatever on some new speakers and deploy them badly like this one or you can at least hire a pro for an afternoon for a few hundred bones and get your PRX system functioning ok!

Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jared Koopman on January 29, 2013, 03:15:52 PM
Jason,

As someone mentioned earlier based on what we know, this sounds like a people problem. I have been in your shoes and sometimes the best thing you can do is simply tell them that if they are not willing to do this the right way, you will not be a part of it. Ya it hurts sometimes because we want to help out, but if leadership is simply not willing to heed due diligence, then sometimes we just have to say our peace and move on.

I know you are probably beating your head against a wall trying to get them the right information. Perhaps the best thing you can do is simply say to them the right course of action and that anything outside of that, you are not qualified to help them. Sure it might hurt our ego to admit that, but sometimes that builds the trust and respect...knowing when we are in over our heads.

You have been given good advice here. I suspect that there is more to this story (past history, etc) that you might not even be aware of and thus the reason they refuse to heed the advice. My advice tell them the truth, and walk away.

Jared
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 29, 2013, 03:49:39 PM
Jason, it's so much more than aux fed v.  full range. It doesn't matter. Especially with an equipped digital desk you should not be putting a 280 Hz HPF on PRX mains. The woofer in the 535 has got to be crossed internally at 300 or so right??? You've nearly reached it! It be hard to swallow but you have not even got this rig working right. You can spend $3000 or whatever on some new speakers and deploy them badly like this one or you can at least hire a pro for an afternoon for a few hundred bones and get your PRX system functioning ok!

The 280Hz HPF is on the vocal channels, not on the mains. I had the mains high passed at 100Hz.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Scott Wagner on January 29, 2013, 06:46:15 PM
The 280Hz HPF is on the vocal channels, not on the mains. I had the mains high passed at 100Hz.
Is a 280Hz HPF on the vox really necessary?  There are a lot of useful things going on in the vox down to about 100Hz.  That could be part of your vocal intellegibility issue.  The other obvious part is that your PRX mains are pointed at each other causing cancellations right in the center of the room of anything that's close to equal level in left and right - like your center panned vox.

We're not bashing you here.  We are seriously trying to help you.  Save your pennies, take some time to increase your knowledge base, and bide your time until the new facility shows up.  Once the new facility is in place (hopefully with some input from a proper audio consultant before construction), bring in a professional to design, spec, and install a proper system for that space.  Keep your PRX for your portable system.  If you can't get those PRX to sound good, then you're doing something wrong - yet another opportunity to learn.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 29, 2013, 06:56:33 PM
Is a 280Hz HPF on the vox really necessary?  There are a lot of useful things going on in the vox down to about 100Hz.  That could be part of your vocal intellegibility issue.  The other obvious part is that your PRX mains are pointed at each other causing cancellations right in the center of the room of anything that's close to equal level in left and right - like your center panned vox.

We're not bashing you here.  We are seriously trying to help you.  Save your pennies, take some time to increase your knowledge base, and bide your time until the new facility shows up.  Once the new facility is in place (hopefully with some input from a proper audio consultant before construction), bring in a professional to design, spec, and install a proper system for that space.  Keep your PRX for your portable system.  If you can't get those PRX to sound good, then you're doing something wrong - yet another opportunity to learn.

I can roll the HPF up to about 375Hz before there is any noticeable loss in body from the vocals. It's not until about 400 that it starts to really sound thin at all. With the HPF at 315Hz (my standard setting for spoken word right now), you can still feel plosives if the person speaking has the mic right up to their lips. My youth pastor could easily shake the room with his voice if we rolled off the HPF.

There isn't any problem with vocal intelligibility. I never have a problem hearing or understanding any of the vocalists, or the Pastor. The problem is only in certain parts of the room and only when the center speaker is off.

When we run the center you can hear the Pastor and the lead vocal just fine (although the backing vocals can get lost in the mix in certain parts of the room, I've been told).

If we turn the center off, you can hear the vocals just fine on either side of the room and in the back of the room, but you lose them the closer you get to the center aisle and the closer you get to the front row (like where the Pastor sits).
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Scott Wagner on January 29, 2013, 07:47:55 PM
There isn't any problem with vocal intelligibility. I never have a problem hearing or understanding any of the vocalists, or the Pastor. The problem is only in certain parts of the room and only when the center speaker is off.

When we run the center you can hear the Pastor and the lead vocal just fine (although the backing vocals can get lost in the mix in certain parts of the room, I've been told).

If we turn the center off, you can hear the vocals just fine on either side of the room and in the back of the room, but you lose them the closer you get to the center aisle and the closer you get to the front row (like where the Pastor sits).
What you're describing is exactly what I was talking (typing) about.  You ARE getting cancellation in the center - physics dictates it.  You are covering up the problem with the center cluster, but it's still a problem.  Like I said before, it's another opportunity to learn.  Do some reading on "comb filtering" to begin your journey.  The $3000 that you're trying to spend will be better used in your new facility.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 29, 2013, 08:04:41 PM
What you're describing is exactly what I was talking (typing) about.  You ARE getting cancellation in the center - physics dictates it.  You are covering up the problem with the center cluster, but it's still a problem.  Like I said before, it's another opportunity to learn.  Do some reading on "comb filtering" to begin your journey.  The $3000 that you're trying to spend will be better used in your new facility.

At this point I've already decided not to mention that list I posted in the first thread to the church leadership. Hopefully they don't just buy some speakers anyway. They have bought sound equipment without any input from the sound team in the past...

I'm sorry if it seemed like I was saying I didn't believe you or something when you said we're getting cancellation in the center. We definitely are, it's pretty apparent just from walking around in the room, especially in the low end. I didn't mean to sound like I was disagreeing with you.

My problem is that I don't believe there is really anything we can do about it. I mean, unless you guys have some suggestions about what else we can do with those JBLs given our room. I'm absolutely open to suggestions but just be aware that I might not be able to do some of the things you suggest, if only because the leadership doesn't agree.

If it were up to me I'd have replaced the center speakers with better sounding ones right after we moved in. They appear to have been professionally installed (although I can't verify that), and they seem to have good coverage. They just sound like garbage. I think if we had replaced those when we moved in we could have put the JBLs in a closet and just used the center cluster.

But I agree with you guys, it does seem like it would be a waste to replace any of our mains at this point. So, like I said, if there's any suggestions you have for improvements to our speaker placement, please let me know and I'll consider them and even try them if I'm able.

One piece of gear I think would still be worth the investment, regardless, is some DSP. Just having a real 24dB per octave crossover would probably help out a lot and should remove the need to high pass the vocal channels so high.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on January 29, 2013, 09:16:08 PM
At this point I've already decided not to mention that list I posted in the first thread to the church leadership. Hopefully they don't just buy some speakers anyway. They have bought sound equipment without any input from the sound team in the past...

I'm sorry if it seemed like I was saying I didn't believe you or something when you said we're getting cancellation in the center. We definitely are, it's pretty apparent just from walking around in the room, especially in the low end. I didn't mean to sound like I was disagreeing with you.

My problem is that I don't believe there is really anything we can do about it. I mean, unless you guys have some suggestions about what else we can do with those JBLs given our room. I'm absolutely open to suggestions but just be aware that I might not be able to do some of the things you suggest, if only because the leadership doesn't agree.

If it were up to me I'd have replaced the center speakers with better sounding ones right after we moved in. They appear to have been professionally installed (although I can't verify that), and they seem to have good coverage. They just sound like garbage. I think if we had replaced those when we moved in we could have put the JBLs in a closet and just used the center cluster.

But I agree with you guys, it does seem like it would be a waste to replace any of our mains at this point. So, like I said, if there's any suggestions you have for improvements to our speaker placement, please let me know and I'll consider them and even try them if I'm able.

One piece of gear I think would still be worth the investment, regardless, is some DSP. Just having a real 24dB per octave crossover would probably help out a lot and should remove the need to high pass the vocal channels so high.
It may not be possible to stop the train of ignorant church leadership from buying dumb gear.  It's definitely possible for you to not be part of the problem.  I'm glad you're coming around.

$3000 will go a good way towards a few more IEM sets.  Getting rid of stage volume will make a huge difference when music is playing - iso booth for the drum set, IEMs instead of wedges, instrument amps off-stage.  I'd work VERY hard in this direction - the improvement is not subtle. 

A real crossover is a good thing, though I don't remember you mentioning that you have subs.  If you don't, then a crossover won't help you.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 29, 2013, 09:37:49 PM
It may not be possible to stop the train of ignorant church leadership from buying dumb gear.  It's definitely possible for you to not be part of the problem.  I'm glad you're coming around.

$3000 will go a good way towards a few more IEM sets.  Getting rid of stage volume will make a huge difference when music is playing - iso booth for the drum set, IEMs instead of wedges, instrument amps off-stage.  I'd work VERY hard in this direction - the improvement is not subtle. 

A real crossover is a good thing, though I don't remember you mentioning that you have subs.  If you don't, then a crossover won't help you.

We do have a QSC HPR181i active subwoofer. We are actually using its internal crossover right now. I just don't think it's working properly. Re: the whole 280Hz high pass thing, which wasn't necessary when we fed the sub with an AUX.

I don't know if we actually have $3000 to spend right now, it was just a number to use as a reference. For all I know our budget could be $0 for sound. I think the last piece of pro audio equipment we bought other than cables was our FOH board...

We've wanted to put the whole band on IEMs for years but we just haven't been able to afford it yet. We'll see what happens next week when me and the decision maker go down to the local pro audio shop and try some stuff out.

Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on January 30, 2013, 02:02:46 AM
I'll repeat myself one more time for your benefit. (That is, I have said something to this effect on many OTHER peoples' threads, people who've been in your situation.)

Figure out what you need and what it will cost BEFORE you decide how much you can spend. Then you can ask the congregation for the money you need. People are amazingly charitable when they know how their money is to be used and how much is needed. They like to see a plan, and they like to have some assurance that the plan will meet the needs.

Otherwise, it's like giving your wife a dollar to buy a gallon of milk, when you have no clue how much milk costs. (Around here it's around $2.69/gallon right now.)
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 30, 2013, 02:22:16 PM
I'll repeat myself one more time for your benefit. (That is, I have said something to this effect on many OTHER peoples' threads, people who've been in your situation.)

Figure out what you need and what it will cost BEFORE you decide how much you can spend. Then you can ask the congregation for the money you need. People are amazingly charitable when they know how their money is to be used and how much is needed. They like to see a plan, and they like to have some assurance that the plan will meet the needs.

Otherwise, it's like giving your wife a dollar to buy a gallon of milk, when you have no clue how much milk costs. (Around here it's around $2.69/gallon right now.)

$3000 was more or less an arbitrary number. To my knowledge our budget for speakers is $0 right at this moment.

We don't have a separate budget for production/tech. Anything we buy for that comes out of the church's general fund, and we rarely spend more than 2 or 300 dollars on anything.

I'll repeat what I said in my last post: I no longer have any plans to mention the list in the OP to the church leadership. At this point I think the best thing we can do is maybe add some DSP and then continue to use our current speakers until we know for sure which building we'll be moving into in 2015. Once we know for sure which building we're going to move into, I will strongly suggest that we hire a consultant to design a system for the new space.

Unless we suddenly get a huge influx of income, we're going to be renting our next building as we were with this one, so the amount of construction we'll be able to do will be very limited, but we can at least get the right system for the job if we hire a consultant.

We've worked with a local company called Advanced Broadcast Solutions in the past (we bought our Roland board from them) and may do so again. After talking to Caleb Dick here on PSW I'm also going to highly recommend AVE.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: AllenDeneau on January 30, 2013, 04:09:47 PM
Actually the end goal IS to "mix" all of the instruments and people through the system. Once we have IEMs and take the guitar amps off stage that will be the case.

I am completely aware that we have multiple sources for the same sound and that it's creating mud. If I could do anything about it I would. But we don't have enough coverage from the JBLs, and we don't have good IEMs for the guitar players.

Believe it or not, out of every configuration we've attempted, this is the best we've been able to come up with. How it sounds now is the best it's ever sounded in this building.

Hi again Jason, I really wanted to add something in related to the above quote;
First I'll add a bit of background of myself. I went through the exact same thing you are just over a year ago at my last church where I was in charge of tech. This church is a pole type building with tall flat walls, a pitched ceiling and a stage area recessed into the back wall with wicked hard surfaces. To add injury to insult, the person "in charge" of audio when the church was built knew electric but NOT audio.

The stage area had a straight back wall and angles side walls greating a trapezoid, much like a speaker box, more on that later. Now here's the biggest issue, besides hard and untreated surfaces, a short distance to the back wall and the sound booth upstairs in a room with a cutout "window"... The speakers were installed @ 15' up from stage level on the side walls on the stage. They were slightly angled down but, not nough to direct sound to the people AND they completely washed the stage not to mention they were cross firing. Washing the stage with unnecessary sound was one problem however, the larger problem was the crazy comb filtering that was occuring. You could literally walk from one side to the other, parallel to the stage, in the center to rear of the room and every few feet you'd go from a muddy null point to a wicked hot spot back to a null etc...

I noticed the issue early on and slowly tried to bring it up but, it's a small country church that did the things they did because thats they way they always did them and didn't want to hurt the persons feelings that installed the speakers. Finally a few complaints were made regarding the hearing issues and I had my in or so I thought. I suggested re-deploying the speakers we had, after I had researched and researched, and determined I could actually get them to work pretty well in new locations. The person who installed the system was dead set on new speakers and that's what we did. It's a bit better BUT, with the cost of a bit of supplies for rigging and running cables and a lift, we could've been just as good as we were with spending $3000 on a new system. It's weird how similar our situations are/were...

Don't get me wrong, new speakers helped BUT, I deployed them where they would work. I'm convinced we could've reached nearly the same level of upgrade with a move of the previous speakers...

The above was just really to relate I know what you're going through as I lived it just over a year ago and I'm making my recommendations based on what I learned.

So the two points I'm going to try to make are:

1. Regarding your above comment, I mentioned the stage area of my past church was much like that of a speaker cabinet. Where that's relevant is even with IEM's you're still going to have a ton of stage volume being "pushed" off the stage into the seats due to the very nature of your stage area..It's a open sided box with hard surfaces and a tall ceiling, much like that of a speaker enclosure. Even with IEM's and moving the amps off stage along with the wedges you still have acoustic instruments do deal with in the drums, even though you have a shield, and acoustic guitar bodies and human voices... It appears as if your drum location is pretty close to a corner and near the back walls and unless the drum shield is a 360 degree enclosure with acoustic treatment you're going to be getting a bit of acoustic drum sound just from the stage.. There are a few things that can be done to actually let the drum kit help you but that's for a different post..

Not to mention you have the baptismal in the rear of the stage just above your sub...

I do believe that IEM's will help a bit but I am hoping you don't think they'll be the end all fix all solution. As Dick said, start with the vocals and get them mixed in and sounding good, then and only then add in what you can't hear coming off the stage. Your mix will be cleaner, honest...

2. More than speaker sound or quality, deployment of the speakers is the most critical part of the solution. It's pretty easy to get a Nexo or Meyer (insert your brand here) rig sounding like poop just by placing the speakers in the wrong locations. Likewise, it's not too difficult to get a cheap pair of $99 Kustoms, ok well maybe not those but you get my drift, sounding ok with proper placement and tuning..

I know you get the deployment thing as evidenced by your trying them in different locations and with or without the center speakers but I also think you may be having some issues with stage volume as well which is biasing your judgement of the location of the JBL's.

here are my questions/solutions...

1. Do you have a proper eq system on the JBL's? I've not used thos boxes but I've heard a lot of good things about them so I'm wondering if they aren't eq'd and dialed in. Again, you MUST take into account what's being pushed off stage and not into the PA as well...

2. Get a ladder or lift and get up to the flown centers and check them out. Maybe they're mis wired causing a phase issue or maybe somethings come un-wired... Maybe something is blown but I'd bet they can be fixed pretty easily. Could be an easy solution to your issue and you may not even need the JBL's afterward..

3. If they gave you a $3000 budget, research integrators in the area to see what it would actually cost to have them come in and measure out the room. Present it to the board in a way that they can understand that proper proir planning is prudent. Having a professional come in to analyze the system may help them acheive their goals AND save them $$$$.

We've wanted to put the whole band on IEMs for years but we just haven't been able to afford it yet. We'll see what happens next week when me and the decision maker go down to the local pro audio shop and try some stuff out.

Jason, I mean NO disrespect but that's going about it backwards. Trying things out without truly knowing what you need is kind of like talking to  builder to build you a house before you had an architect design what you want/need. A sniper doesn't shoot then dial in his scope, he assesses, dials in, aims then shoots. 1 shot 1 kill, so to speak...

It seems I missed a whole page of responses here before I posted my $.02 but I want to add this.. I'd guess you're feeling pretty deflated now and maybe a bit ganged up on BUT, I can honestly only speak for myself as I've never met anyone posting here, I'm only trying to help you now and in the long run. Nothing is more irritating, to me, than when I see an Issue and it can be corrected gbut the person in charge doesn't see it or care about it or understand the need to fix it right, been there done that got the migrain from it, lol... I'm only guessing that's how you feel with your situation at church.

I do also understand when we're bleeding we need to put a bandage on the wound BUT, sometimes more is necessary and without seeking professional help, we won't know. If you have a cut and it's bleeding, put a bandage on it. If it doesn't stop the bleeding, go to the doctor to be sure the cut was addressed properly and will heal correctly otherwise you'll have issues with the same very woud later down the road. That's kind of a losse parallel to the point I'm trying to make. Believe me, even in my own company, I've hard to learn fix it right or don't fix it at all.

Spending $$ on good sound is applaudable, however it's best to do so with a distinct plan to acheive the desired results.

Ok, I've rambled on enough and my dog needs to go out but I'll part with this; A number of years ago I went to a sound training seminar with Kent Morris, from Cornerstone Media based in Atlanta. I didn't know he would be speaking about sound in church but as he opened up his session he said this: "there's only one thing more important than God's word in church". At that point I thought I was going to get the secret to life or the most profound secret in all of history and I did get the latter, he followed it up with this, "hearing God's word" It was a silly little statement BUT as it sank in and he expounded on his word, it hit me like a ton of bricks, what we do as church tech stewards is very, very, very important but most don't know that.. He talked about how sound is typically the last thing on the line item budget for most churches and it's nearly always an afterthought however, without it/us, what good would be the best sermon ever?

Hope any of my ramblings has helped.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 30, 2013, 04:40:02 PM
So the two points I'm going to try to make are:

1. Regarding your above comment, I mentioned the stage area of my past church was much like that of a speaker cabinet. Where that's relevant is even with IEM's you're still going to have a ton of stage volume being "pushed" off the stage into the seats due to the very nature of your stage area..It's a open sided box with hard surfaces and a tall ceiling, much like that of a speaker enclosure. Even with IEM's and moving the amps off stage along with the wedges you still have acoustic instruments do deal with in the drums, even though you have a shield, and acoustic guitar bodies and human voices... It appears as if your drum location is pretty close to a corner and near the back walls and unless the drum shield is a 360 degree enclosure with acoustic treatment you're going to be getting a bit of acoustic drum sound just from the stage.. There are a few things that can be done to actually let the drum kit help you but that's for a different post..

Yes, we get plenty of acoustic drum sound. To the point that I often don't use any drum mics other than the kick drum and tom mics.

Not to mention you have the baptismal in the rear of the stage just above your sub...

I do believe that IEM's will help a bit but I am hoping you don't think they'll be the end all fix all solution. As Dick said, start with the vocals and get them mixed in and sounding good, then and only then add in what you can't hear coming off the stage. Your mix will be cleaner, honest...

This is actually always how I approach my mix. Most of the time I don't put the electric guitars, snare drum or cymbals into the speakers because they're already so loud on stage.

2. More than speaker sound or quality, deployment of the speakers is the most critical part of the solution. It's pretty easy to get a Nexo or Meyer (insert your brand here) rig sounding like poop just by placing the speakers in the wrong locations. Likewise, it's not too difficult to get a cheap pair of $99 Kustoms, ok well maybe not those but you get my drift, sounding ok with proper placement and tuning..

I know you get the deployment thing as evidenced by your trying them in different locations and with or without the center speakers but I also think you may be having some issues with stage volume as well which is biasing your judgement of the location of the JBL's.

here are my questions/solutions...

1. Do you have a proper eq system on the JBL's? I've not used thos boxes but I've heard a lot of good things about them so I'm wondering if they aren't eq'd and dialed in. Again, you MUST take into account what's being pushed off stage and not into the PA as well...

I don't have any EQ on the JBLs. I don't know very much about system tuning. I've read quite a bit about it, but my ear is simply not trained well enough yet to do it right. I could just use an RTA but I've been advised against it by what I've read here and elsewhere. RTA doesn't give any information on phase or time delay and doesn't account for the room at all.

2. Get a ladder or lift and get up to the flown centers and check them out. Maybe they're mis wired causing a phase issue or maybe somethings come un-wired... Maybe something is blown but I'd bet they can be fixed pretty easily. Could be an easy solution to your issue and you may not even need the JBL's afterward..

Everything looks to be wired correctly, I think it's an issue of a blown driver or possibly crossover distortion or something of that nature. If we actually owned that center cluster I think we would have repaired it a long time ago. But it came with the building and belongs to the people that own the building (we're renting).
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Josh Daws on January 30, 2013, 08:00:21 PM
I could just use an RTA but I've been advised against it by what I've read here and elsewhere. RTA doesn't give any information on phase or time delay and doesn't account for the room at all.

Not entirely rue...this is exactly what an RTA does, BUT you must have the right program (and person) for this. a program like SMAART will tell you phasing, time, EQ, and more. using AUTO eq on a device won't always take this into account? varies between units, manufacturers etc.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 30, 2013, 08:10:21 PM
Not entirely rue...this is exactly what an RTA does, BUT you must have the right program (and person) for this. a program like SMAART will tell you phasing, time, EQ, and more. using AUTO eq on a device won't always take this into account? varies between units, manufacturers etc.

You should be a bit clearer in your statement.  While SMAART incorporates an RTA function, RTA boxes come nowhere near being capable of the capability of SMAART.  I know you know this, but it is not clear in your post.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Josh Daws on January 30, 2013, 10:45:07 PM
You should be a bit clearer in your statement.  While SMAART incorporates an RTA function, RTA boxes come nowhere near being capable of the capability of SMAART.  I know you know this, but it is not clear in your post.

you are right i should have been a little more clearer/specific...
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 31, 2013, 01:30:11 AM
Not entirely rue...this is exactly what an RTA does, BUT you must have the right program (and person) for this. a program like SMAART will tell you phasing, time, EQ, and more. using AUTO eq on a device won't always take this into account? varies between units, manufacturers etc.

And SMAART costs quite a bit more than I imagine the church would want to spend on such software. I've heard Room EQ Wizard does a lot of the same stuff though, that could be an option perhaps.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Kent Thompson on January 31, 2013, 01:58:14 AM
And SMAART costs quite a bit more than I imagine the church would want to spend on such software. I've heard Room EQ Wizard does a lot of the same stuff though, that could be an option perhaps.
Even a great tool like SMAART can be misused. It is not really the cost of the tool as it is the skills of the person using it. Sometimes the wizard might get it right other times it might not. It can only make decisions based on the information it has which might not be enough to get it right.

 
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 31, 2013, 02:11:53 AM
Even a great tool like SMAART can be misused. It is not really the cost of the tool as it is the skills of the person using it. Sometimes the wizard might get it right other times it might not. It can only make decisions based on the information it has which might not be enough to get it right.

And that's the reason I don't even have any EQ on the mains. Seems like there's way too many ways to get it wrong.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Brad Weber on January 31, 2013, 07:59:44 AM
I don't have any EQ on the JBLs. I don't know very much about system tuning. I've read quite a bit about it, but my ear is simply not trained well enough yet to do it right. I could just use an RTA but I've been advised against it by what I've read here and elsewhere. RTA doesn't give any information on phase or time delay and doesn't account for the room at all.
A RTA does account for the room, phase based phenomena, etc. in that it can reflect the results of those issues on the frequency response.  What a RTA does not do is provide information that can help identify and/or address any the effects of the room, relative phase and so on.  If the relative phase of two speakers, a reflection from a wall, a room mode, etc. results in a dip in the frequency response a RTA may very well show that resulting dip in the response but it would not provide information to be able to differentiate that, which cannot be fixed with EQ, from a simple dip in the response of the speaker that can be fixed with EQ.  This can lead to people spending many hours applying massive amounts of EQ to try to address a response anomaly that can't be corrected with EQ.
 
However, while you may feel your ear is not well trained enough, there is no standard for what sounds 'right' other than what the listeners believe sounds right and you know your audience and their expectations as well as, if not better than, anyone.  Someone with less experience may not be as efficient and may have to implement much more of a trial and error approach, but that doesn't mean that they can't potentially improve the sound.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Bob L. Wilson on January 31, 2013, 09:49:47 AM
I can't reconcile
it seems like we're still getting overlap (microphones will feedback through the sub with any high pass filter setting below 280Hz).
and
I can roll the HPF up to about 375Hz before there is any noticeable loss in body from the vocals. It's not until about 400 that it starts to really sound thin at all. With the HPF at 315Hz (my standard setting for spoken word right now), you can still feel plosives if the person speaking has the mic right up to their lips.

Unless the system has a massive response peak under 500Hz something just does not compute.

Our system easily puts out enough SPL for us (although I'd like to be able to feel the kick drum without triggering the limiter on the sub...)**
and
We used to do AUX-fed subs and just high passed the mains and low passed the sub with the PEQs in the board. It didn't sound as good though.

I would go back to square one. That cluster looks like a quality install and rarely does anybody bother with a quality install on cheap speakers. This last summer I walked in to a sanctuary in Canada and the system sounded awful turns out the cluster was triamp only Community speakers and the church was sending a full range signal to the woofers only! When I asked them after the service what they were using for crossover settings and got a blank stare I knew immediately what the problem was. They were trying to crutch it with a huge high frequency shelf boost and some sidefills but it was all bad. Something similar could explain both your cluster sounding "bad" and a huge excess of 100-500Hz in your room. I would start by playing full range dynamic music through the cluster and work with that until it sounds acceptable. If you can't make it sound acceptable then get up there and see what those speakers are and how they are wired/configured.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 31, 2013, 11:02:42 AM
The center cluster is by a company called OAP.

http://www.oapaudio.com/index.php/products/flyable-installs/category/configurable-modular-systems

I believe it is from their Q series, but I'd have to get a closer look at them. I'll see if we can pull out the big ladder sometime soon and get a good look at them.

The center is being run off of one side of a QSC RMX 1450 power amp, and I have it high passed at 100Hz using the board EQ.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Samuel Rees on January 31, 2013, 12:47:30 PM
Bob is right - something doesn't compute. Tell your people that the best money you can possibly spend would be on a consult. If they resist, tell them it doesn't have to be any kind of large scale professional redeployment or anything - for a few hundred bucks you could just get a local professional engineer to come down just for a night and straighten the basics out.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Bob L. Wilson on January 31, 2013, 12:59:22 PM
The center cluster is by a company called OAP.

http://www.oapaudio.com/index.php/products/flyable-installs/category/configurable-modular-systems

I believe it is from their Q series, but I'd have to get a closer look at them. I'll see if we can pull out the big ladder sometime soon and get a good look at them.

The center is being run off of one side of a QSC RMX 1450 power amp, and I have it high passed at 100Hz using the board EQ.

OAP builds perfectly reasonable speakers. I have only ever come across a couple installs, but both performed fine. Those are probably not Q series as it looks like they have handles on top. Judging by their size perhaps they are http://www.oapaudio.com/index.php/products/flyable-installs/item/t-1502?category_id=55 (http://www.oapaudio.com/index.php/products/flyable-installs/item/t-1502?category_id=55) I picked these because they are a biamp only example, where a standard speakon(pins 1+ and 1-) will drive only the 15 woofers. Maybe they are a full range model and one or both horns are toast?

Action plan:
1) Get the cluster sorted out. Less posting more investigation and analysis. If you aren't comfortable with this stop and beg the leadership to bring in a professional.
2) Split your signals! Instruments will go into the JBLs. Vocals only into the cluster. Go back to driving the sub off an aux. Keeping the vocals separate from the instruments will improve intelligibility as you avoid IM distortion. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO3XZnDkYfE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO3XZnDkYfE).
3) Configure the JBLs as dual mono but leave them off to start.
4) Nothing but kick, bass and keys in the sub. Add them in that order one at a time so if the low end falls apart you know what to investigate.
5) You may find that with the wedges on, vocals only in the cluster, and the sub running but the JBLs off that the instruments are already a big muddy loud mess just from the stage wash.
6) Create and enforce a stage volume limit. No sense even turning on the JBLs for instrument reinforcement if the room is already too excited.
7) Once it sounds decent with just the backline, wedges, cluster and sub then and only then fire up the JBLs. Start by bringing up the level of whatever is too low in the wash from the wedges and backline, this is usually the keys, add in any other instruments that need more level to be balanced in the room one at a time.
7) Eventually you may want to switch the JBLs back to a stereo configuration and pan things appropriately one can then pull SMALL amounts of certain instrument signals say guitar or keys in to the cluster to anchor them.

If things fall apart go back a step and investigate what happened.

There were plenty of good mixes long before IEM became the must have thing, but those mixes where made by engineers that understood how to manage and work with the stage levels.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 31, 2013, 01:12:12 PM
Re:

1) This sounds like a good idea, I will do some investigation on the center cluster.

2) I have tried vocals only in the center but it has sounded terrible every time we've tried it. (BTW, We aren't putting any instruments in the center right now if anyone was curious.)

3) The JBLs are practically dual mono anyway since we don't pan anything. Everything is center panned.

4) Back when we ran AUX-fed subs that's all we ever put in there was bass, kick and keys.

6) I don't have the authority to set a volume limit. When the guitarists and drummers play too loud I politely ask them to turn down.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Scott Wagner on January 31, 2013, 01:37:53 PM
3) The JBLs are practically dual mono anyway since we don't pan anything. Everything is center panned.
Since you're not panning anything, you've got a dual mono system - no "practically" involved.  You've got two 90 degree nominal coverage (approaching 360 degrees in the low end) speakers placed against a boundary and pointing at each other, and you're wondering why it doesn't sound good?  Do yourself (and the congregation) a favor and bring in an experienced professional.  It's the best money you'll ever spend.  It's never easy to admit you're in over your head, but it's the right thing to do.  It's impossible to properly diagnose all of the issues over the internet.  Boots on the ground is the only way.  Currently, you're trying to fight physics with EQ - that's a losing battle.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 31, 2013, 03:11:59 PM
Scott....

When it gets to five pages and the OP hasn't implemented any of the suggestions, it would seem that solving the "problem" is secondary to "discussing" it.  What I'm getting from all this is complain first, then dismiss all suggested fixes with "its' actually ok" or "it's still the best it's ever been"  when all signs point out to your basic noob syndrome and a distinct lack of a willingness to just "get in there and do it".

Time for my nap.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 31, 2013, 03:31:29 PM
Scott....

When it gets to five pages and the OP hasn't implemented any of the suggestions or supplied requested information, it would seem that solving the "problem" is secondary to posting on the InterWeb and "discussing" sound rather than "doing" sound.

Time to add to the IL......   

The thread was started on a Monday and it's only Thursday and I only have access to building when the doors are open...Wouldn't have had the chance.

If you want to add me to your IL I understand, I realize I've started a number of threads on here that have lead no where and I must sound like a broken record at this point.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Scott Wagner on January 31, 2013, 03:51:57 PM
If you want to add me to your IL I understand, I realize I've started a number of threads on here that have lead no where and I must sound like a broken record at this point.
We all realize that you're not the decision maker, and that all you can do is champion the idea of trying to get a qualified person on site.  No need for the Iggy List from my perspective.  I wish I could give you some simple fix, but the reality is that it's not so simple.  Where are you located?  Perhaps some nearby forum member could pop in for a "look-see" and a listen some Sunday.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 31, 2013, 04:01:48 PM
The thread was started on a Monday and it's only Thursday and I only have access to building when the doors are open...Wouldn't have had the chance.

If you want to add me to your IL I understand, I realize I've started a number of threads on here that have lead no where and I must sound like a broken record at this point.

Jason....

It's the logically inconsistencies and constant self-contradictions that frustrate any attempts to take you seriously any longer.  Yes, this thread is only a few days old, but contains the same suggestions given to your numerous other posts.  Go back and think about this statement from your second post in this thread:

"If we get new speakers with the same coverage patterns as our current speakers, placed in the same spots, but are better sounding, I can't imagine our sound wouldn't be better. Even if it's not by all that much."

The answer is NO.....N......O......NO.

Your speakers are OK.

Your deployment of them is not.

It's not how the speakers sound by themselves, it's how they work IN THE ROOM.

Your speakers are fine.

Your deployment is not.

Beyond that, your dumping of the aux-fed subs is suspect.  As has been suggested, go back to that.

If you lack a proper crossover, BUY ONE.  Don't ask the church to buy it for you. They can be had for under $50.  If you're not willing to chip in on an absolutely essential and relatively inexpensive piece of gear, STOP COMPLAINING.

Same goes for a graphic EQ, although I would imagine that the capability exists within the Roland....or should, if it's not a total toy or recording-only console.

You don't need DSP, new speakers or anything else.  You need to have someone who knows what they're doing. 

At this point, it's not you.  You're a ways away from seeing how this stuff all works in the real world and you need a mentor on site.

You're spinning your wheels on the PSW by starting a new thread every time you're given good suggestions that you can't or don't put into practice.  This whole thread comes after you've been told in other threads that it's not your speakers, it's the deployment and your inexperience.  Yet you start a thread on new speakers.  You've stopped making sense.     

Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 31, 2013, 05:23:24 PM
I should apologize,

I just feel powerless here, and maybe on some level I thought that if I just asked the right questions to the right people that they'd come up with some magic fix-all solution. I don't think I conciously thought that, because typing it right now just felt silly. But I think I must have believed that on some level.

I'm more than willing to chip in my own money. Heck if I was a millionaire by now the church would have a whole new top of the line sound system (installed by a professional). I don't make a whole lot of money as I'm a college student, but I do have some, so I should be able to afford a crossover. I might just do that this week.

The number one complaint I hear from everyone involved in this mess (everyone on the sound team, the worship leaders and the senior pastor) is that our speakers suck. Maybe they wouldn't feel that way if the speakers had been depolyed correctly.

You're right though, sorry for using this forum as a place to vent my frustrations. I know you're all trying to help, and I am thankful that despite all these threads you've been willing to offer help anyway.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 31, 2013, 05:34:02 PM
I should apologize,

I just feel powerless here, and maybe on some level I thought that if I just asked the right questions to the right people that they'd come up with some magic fix-all solution. I don't think I conciously thought that, because typing it right now just felt silly. But I think I must have believed that on some level.

I'm more than willing to chip in my own money. Heck if I was a millionaire by now the church would have a whole new top of the line sound system (installed by a professional). I don't make a whole lot of money as I'm a college student, but I do have some, so I should be able to afford a crossover. I might just do that this week.

The number one complaint I hear from everyone involved in this mess (everyone on the sound team, the worship leaders and the senior pastor) is that our speakers suck. Maybe they wouldn't feel that way if the speakers had been depolyed correctly.

You're right though, sorry for using this forum as a place to vent my frustrations. I know you're all trying to help, and I am thankful that despite all these threads you've been willing to offer help anyway.

A lot of my frustration is that I can't fix it for you over the Interweb.  But it is not a given that your speakers suck.  If that is being shoved down your throat, take a sabbatical and let it be someone else's problem.  If you move the speakers to the right place for good sound and are told that "they don't look good there".........move on to something else and let them go ahead and hang themselves.

Either cross the sub(s) over properly and aux feed them or forget it.

Keep all the vocal mics out of the subs (see aux-fed above).

If you don't have a workable (outside of any system processing) graphic EQ for the mains, get one.

And as always.......find a pro in your area to assist.

If the powers-that-be won't work together with you, it's vacation time.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jordan Wolf on January 31, 2013, 08:59:26 PM
If the powers-that-be won't work together with you, it's vacation time.

Jason,

It sounds to me like you're banging your head on the wall in frustration.  I understand that feeling; Dick is right, though...if you've done everything you can to make known how the status quo is unacceptable and the reasoning behind it, you've said your peace.  Leave it at that, see what happens, and maybe you'll see positive results.  You might also see things crash and burn - but at least you tried.

You don't have to stick around for the fireball.
Title: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Samuel Rees on February 01, 2013, 12:42:14 AM
It does seem like you should be able to get some good mileage out of fixing your crossover and configuration. Aux fed subs are a simple way to make sure unwanted sources stay out of the subs. They should not "sound" different, with the exception of better isolation of non-sub-sources as long as there is not a weird gain stage somewhere in one of the chains.

What is the db/oct slope of the HPFs/LPFs on the Roland? If its 18 or 24 db/oct you should be able to do some solid output processing on the desk. Also, a crossover for your PRXs could definitely help with your low end issues because right now yours are running full range from what I understand. If you get a crossover or you determine your board has steep enough filters, fiddle with the frequency somewhere from 100-120 as the sub you mention has a 100hz LPF I believe I recall. Also, scope out the processing in the center cluster, and high pass it around the same.

Besides that - good advice coming from the rest of these guys I think.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 01, 2013, 03:02:28 AM
It does seem like you should be able to get some good mileage out of fixing your crossover and configuration. Aux fed subs are a simple way to make sure unwanted sources stay out of the subs. They should not "sound" different, with the exception of better isolation of non-sub-sources as long as there is not a weird gain stage somewhere in one of the chains.

What is the db/oct slope of the HPFs/LPFs on the Roland? If its 18 or 24 db/oct you should be able to do some solid output processing on the desk. Also, a crossover for your PRXs could definitely help with your low end issues because right now yours are running full range from what I understand. If you get a crossover or you determine your board has steep enough filters, fiddle with the frequency somewhere from 100-120 as the sub you mention has a 100hz LPF I believe I recall. Also, scope out the processing in the center cluster, and high pass it around the same.

Besides that - good advice coming from the rest of these guys I think.

I haven't seen anything in the documentation for the Roland that specifies the order of the crossover but it looks like it's 12dB per octave, judging by the slope vs that of the M480 which can do 6, 12, or 18.

A Peavey 23XO is only $100 and can do 3 way mono. I was heading to guitar center this weekend anyway so I'll pick one up and give it a go. If the crossover fixes the HPF thing and I can turn that down on the vocals to a more typical setting the AUX feed might not be necessary.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: AllenDeneau on February 01, 2013, 04:24:25 AM
Hey Jason, I'm new to the Roland M400, actually still haven't used it yet but starting next month I'll be on our Church tech team and we have the 400 also. I don't believe the 400 has built in crossover capabilities BUT it does have eq's that can be patched into ins and outs, so that's good for when you get the deployment fixed.

As someone mentioned, your entire system is basically producing the same frequencies BUT from 4 different spots. While you do have inputs sorted out to various sets of speakers, there's a LOT of similar frequencies in each speaker. See the attached picture for a look at what instruments overlap one another.

By adding a crossover you'll probably see a bit of clarity right away even without moving a speaker because you'll be eliminating same sounds from different points.  It was mentioned that as you don't have the PRX's crossed over or eq'd, since you don't you're certainly getting a lot of low frequency info from them that is also in the sub and they're arriving at the audience at different times creating lack of intelligibility. My guess is you're getting a prety muddy and boomy sound which makes understanding the vocals difficlut correct?
So a crossover is a great start.

As far as your PRX's "sucking", my guess is that's their way of saying the sound isn't good, in their opinion. People know what they like and what they don't like when it comes to sound and a mix BUT, most can't tell you what's causing their dislike and therefore "something" becomes the scapegoat. It's like taking a chevy suburban to a drag race vs a corvette. The suburban is a very nice vehicle BUT, it's not designed to race. So the non-pro racer stomps on the pedal when the green light drops and by the time he's getting off the line the corvette is dang near to the finish line.. When the non-pro racer, with his suburban, gets to the pits and is discouraged he lost, his statement is; "the suburban sucks". It doesn't suck, it just wasn't designed or set up for that use, you get my point.

Are there better speakers on the market, yep. Will they help your sound issue, probably not. Are there worse speakers on the market than your PRX's, ABSOLUTELY. The right tool used in the wrong way IS the still the right tool being used improperly...

Want to prove to your "haters" that the PRX's are a pretty good box? Bring them outside, place them on stands in an area with NO obstructions, as to avoid slapback, and run them with a very familiar song. My guess is that your "team" will find they're pretty ok, now you can start to help them see they need a professional to come in for a consult.

As I mentioned as well as did Bob, I'd work on finding the issue with the installed center cluster. It does look like a decent install so I'll "assume" they're deployed in a fashion for good coverage. A center cluster, like what you have hanging, is a GREAT solution for a room like what you have, a very reverberant room. The center cluster is called a single point source which simply means, the sound is coming from a single point. The benefit to this is you eliminate a bunch of issues with overlapping sound and sound arriving to the listeners ears at different time because the sound all starts from one location and moves uniformly outward.

I'd invest the time into testing the center cluster and determining the issue.

2) I have tried vocals only in the center but it has sounded terrible every time we've tried it. (BTW, We aren't putting any instruments in the center right now if anyone was curious.)

What do you mean when you say terrible? Could be a processing issue, could be a wiring issue, could be a componant issue but it needs to be determined as it may very well be your saving grace in this situation. I understand they're not your speakers BUT, you are renting the space for 2 more years so, even if the fix costs say, $1000, you've now only spent $500 for each remaing year, you've saved $X AND you've left the place in a better way than you found it while acheiving a better sound while you're there.

There are 3 things I think you need to become familiar with in order to help you.

1. Direct Field - the area in which the sound from the speaker hits the listeners ears with NO effect from the rooms boundaries (walls, floor etc...)
2. Reverberant Field -  the area in which the sound hitting the listeners ears is a reflection from the rooms boundaries
3. Critical Distance - this is the distance you can get from the speaker before you start "hearing" the sound from the speaker coming from other areas instead of directly from the speaker itself.

There are a number of other principles which would help you but, understanding those, if you don't already, will help you see how speaker placement is one of the most critical things within a system. See sound is physics and physics are laws, not just sugggestions. The laws of physics CANNOT be broken, only worked within.

I obviously don't know if you're read, or even heard of, this book but, I'll strongly suggest you find yourself a copy and read it front to back. I bought mine years ago and enjoyed reading it completely. It covered things I already knew AND helped explain things I didn't know. It's written for people on a sound team at a church. There are great sections on speaker deployment, how to eq, sound check, etc... It also have a great sound glossary in the back to better understand what many of these terms mean. I think it'll help you in a HUGE way as you're fighting this battle.

Here's a link to amazon for  copy: http://www.amazon.com/Celestial-Sound-Peavey-Better-Church/dp/B002IRERCK

After you've read that and understand it pretty well, it's then time to go to Yamaha's Live Sound Reinforcement Book. That book gets pretty in-depth....

Good luck Jason...
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 01, 2013, 11:15:46 AM
Thanks for the other suggestions, I do want to address one point here though:

By adding a crossover you'll probably see a bit of clarity right away even without moving a speaker because you'll be eliminating same sounds from different points.  It was mentioned that as you don't have the PRX's crossed over or eq'd, since you don't you're certainly getting a lot of low frequency info from them that is also in the sub and they're arriving at the audience at different times creating lack of intelligibility. My guess is you're getting a prety muddy and boomy sound which makes understanding the vocals difficlut correct?
So a crossover is a great start.

First, we're using our QSC HPR subwoofer's built-in crossover. So we do have one, I just don't think it's working very well. Could just be a bad match up because the speakers are different brands?

I'm really not getting any lack of intelligibility. I never have trouble clearly hearing the vocals.

Here's what it looks like when you high pass one EQ and low pass the other at the same frequency on the M-400:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/Master_Razor/crossover_zpse6522d65.png)
Title: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Samuel Rees on February 01, 2013, 01:29:11 PM
Haha ok, could be 12 or even 6. Not very good for crossovers. I used to have an HPR and though it wasn't the steepest slope in the world it was not a problem. Seems like the lack of crossover on your mains is an issue. The HPR should have a built in HPF out, as well as a LPF built in.

Check that out and see if I'm remembering right - you could run that to the PRX instead of direct signal from the board. You could do that without buying any gear. That or aux fed and get a crossover for the PRX. I'd prefer the later, but you can do the first without buying anything.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 01, 2013, 01:42:51 PM
Haha ok, could be 12 or even 6. Not very good for crossovers. I used to have an HPR and though it wasn't the steepest slope in the world it was not a problem. Seems like the lack of crossover on your mains is an issue. The HPR should have a built in HPF out, as well as a LPF built in.

Check that out and see if I'm remembering right - you could run that to the PRX instead of direct signal from the board. You could do that without buying any gear. That or aux fed and get a crossover for the PRX. I'd prefer the later, but you can do the first without buying anything.

I'm already using the 100Hz high passed outputs from the sub to the PRXs.

There could just be an issue with one of the outputs on the sub. I think I briefly mentioned this in another thread but one of the PRXs sounds noticeably louder than the other, and the issue didn't move when we flipped the speakers. So the one on the right was louder regardless of which cab was on the right. I didn't think about it before but if one of the outputs on the sub is malfunctioning that might be one of the causes of the high pass issue with vocals.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Scott Wagner on February 02, 2013, 10:30:53 AM
I'm already using the 100Hz high passed outputs from the sub to the PRXs.

There could just be an issue with one of the outputs on the sub. I think I briefly mentioned this in another thread but one of the PRXs sounds noticeably louder than the other, and the issue didn't move when we flipped the speakers. So the one on the right was louder regardless of which cab was on the right. I didn't think about it before but if one of the outputs on the sub is malfunctioning that might be one of the causes of the high pass issue with vocals.
Are you saying that you're using the sub's internal crossover AND the roll-your-own-not-really-crossover you've created with the board EQ?  If so, remove the board EQ from the equation.  Multiple crossover filters applied to the same passband are NOT a good thing.

As for one PRX being louder, since this is run as a mono system, wire it that way - sub HPF out to one PRX then daisy chained to the other PRX.  That way they would both be seeing the exact same level.

I would highly recommend that you remove/bypass ALL EQ in the system, use the HPR's internal crossover (if you don't want to buy one), and start tuning the system from there.  Of course, your speaker deployment is going to continue to cause you problems, but that won't change unless the deployment does.  While that is a big issue, it sounds like it's the least of your problems right now.  Simplify.

Then again, in that space the single center cluster is probably your best bet if you can figure out what's wrong with it.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 02, 2013, 01:04:39 PM
Are you saying that you're using the sub's internal crossover AND the roll-your-own-not-really-crossover you've created with the board EQ?  If so, remove the board EQ from the equation.  Multiple crossover filters applied to the same passband are NOT a good thing.

No, right now I am only using the subs crossover.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Ray Aberle on February 02, 2013, 02:41:02 PM
And as always.......find a pro in your area to assist.

There are quite a few... You've got Mr. Johnson near by in Battle Ground, I've got gear and staff in Vancouver, there's West Coast Events in PDX (They're a VerTec shop), and quite a few others. I don't do installs but could definitely help a bit with system tuning and gear deployment/usage.

So, reach out and let someone help out! :)

-Ray
Title: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Samuel Rees on February 02, 2013, 02:45:24 PM
Sounds like the short answer, without changing your physical deployment or getting a real consult, is to get a crossover for your PRX and go aux fed, that way there's no chance of vocal / sub interaction so you can rule that out as an issue.

So is getting a cheap consult or even just a look over REALLY out of the question? Have you presented that I could be cheap just just for some to take a look to your management?

That's about all anyone can say about this topic over the interwebz I think.

Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 02, 2013, 04:22:02 PM
When we first installed the Roland, we had a guy by the name of Mark Miller train up the guy who used to be our "lead" sound tech (he's since stepped down and doesn't do sound for us anymore) how to use the board and while he was there he did help dial everything in a bit. One of the things we did was start running our system without AUX fed subs and used a crossover (which I assume was the sub's crossover). After that we had issues with the Pastor's mic feeding back through the sub every time he would walk by it.

Then we moved to a new building and moved back to AUX fed subs for a while. Then after I started learning a lot more about sound I noticed we were running the JBLs full range. I thought to myself "Hey, why are we running the JBLs full range if we have a sub?" so I used the EQ on the board to cut the low end below 100Hz out of the JBLs.

Then after a while it still seemed like the JBLs and the sub were occupying a lot of the same sonic space and the low end seemed pretty muddy. So I went back to using the sub's crossover and then when I was getting way too much boom/low end feedback from the vocal mics I high passed them way up.

At one point I suggested we bring Mark in to come tune the system, but they said it was too expensive to bring him in.

I can make the suggestion again, but I don't know how cheap someone would have to be before they would give the ok.
Title: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Samuel Rees on February 02, 2013, 06:42:34 PM
Then after I started learning a lot more about sound I noticed we were running the JBLs full range. I thought to myself "Hey, why are we running the JBLs full range if we have a sub?" so I used the EQ on the board to cut the low end below 100Hz out of the JBLs.

Then after a while it still seemed like the JBLs and the sub were occupying a lot of the same sonic space


Sounds like the reason that happened is because the Roland filters were not steep enough. Grab a crossover, set it high for some exaggerated separation, and I bet it will help a lot.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 02, 2013, 06:51:14 PM


Sounds like the reason that happened is because the Roland filters were not steep enough. Grab a crossover, set it high for some exaggerated separation, and I bet it will help a lot.

That's what I'm hoping for. Planning on picking one up tomorrow afternoon while I'm at guitar center.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 03, 2013, 08:43:35 PM
Picked this up today while I was at GC: http://www.dbxpro.com/en-US/products/234s

Gonna try to find a night where I can get down to the church and test it out.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 03, 2013, 08:46:05 PM
Picked this up today while I was at GC: http://www.dbxpro.com/en-US/products/234s

Gonna try to find a night where I can get down to the church and test it out.

Don't forget the TRS>XLR cabling you'll need for the hook-up.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 03, 2013, 08:52:04 PM
Don't forget the TRS>XLR cabling you'll need for the hook-up.

We have enough hanging around for testing purposes. If it works out I might have to pick up some.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 04, 2013, 08:48:39 PM
Alright, my plan this week is to run some tests (assuming I get a chance this week, might have to wait till next week).

Test one: Running a single JBL and the sub, plug the output from the board into the left input on the sub, and plug the speaker into the left "100Hz Low-cut" output. Measure the SPL from approx 6-10 feet away.

Next, plug the output from the board into the right input on the sub and plug the speaker into the right "100Hz Low-cut" output. Measure the SPL again from the same distance.

If the SPL is about the same (less than 3dB difference), then the inputs and outputs are in good working order and we can look to the cables as the most likely culprit. My bet is on the output levels varying significantly.

Test two
: (whether or not this test is necessary will depend upon the results from the first test) Stand next to the sub with a hot mic, make sure the mic is hot enough to be considered typical for a service, but not so hot that there is feedback from the sub when standing close to it.

Roll the high pass filter down until you get feedback from the sub. Roll it back up one notch. This is the lowest HPF setting we can get away with using the sub's built-in crossover (this has usually been around 280Hz).

Next, integrate the dbx crossover into the system, setting the crossover to about 100Hz.

Stand next to the sub once again and turn down the high pass filter, see if it feeds back at the same setting, or if it takes a lower setting to feedback.

If, after all of that, we still have the same issue, then something strange is going on that is beyond my ability to solve.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 04, 2013, 08:55:06 PM
Alright, my plan this week is to run some tests (assuming I get a chance this week, might have to wait till next week).

Test one: Running a single JBL and the sub, plug the output from the board into the left input on the sub, and plug the speaker into the left "100Hz Low-cut" output. Measure the SPL from approx 6-10 feet away.

Next, plug the output from the board into the right input on the sub and plug the speaker into the right "100Hz Low-cut" output. Measure the SPL again from the same distance.

If the SPL is about the same (less than 3dB difference), then the inputs and outputs are in good working order and we can look to the cables as the most likely culprit. My bet is on the output levels varying significantly.

Test two
: (whether or not this test is necessary will depend upon the results from the first test) Stand next to the sub with a hot mic, make sure the mic is hot enough to be considered typical for a service, but not so hot that there is feedback from the sub when standing close to it.

Roll the high pass filter down until you get feedback from the sub. Roll it back up one notch. This is the lowest HPF setting we can get away with using the sub's built-in crossover (this has usually been around 280Hz).

Next, integrate the dbx crossover into the system, setting the crossover to about 100Hz.

Stand next to the sub once again and turn down the high pass filter, see if it feeds back at the same setting, or if it takes a lower setting to feedback.

If, after all of that, we still have the same issue, then something strange is going on that is beyond my ability to solve.

Now that you have the cross-over, go back to the aux-fed sub configuration.  Assign only the kick, bass and keys to the aux feeding the sub.  Simply keeping the microphones out of the sub will be a big help.  Use one channel of the x-over to feed the subs, the other channel to feed the JBL's.

Note that center clusters flown over the performing area will often exhibit a distinct LF standing wave.  I find it usually around 200-250 depending.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 04, 2013, 08:58:37 PM
Now that you have the cross-over, go back to the aux-fed sub configuration.  Assign only the kick, bass and keys to the aux feeding the sub.  Simply keeping the microphones out of the sub will be a big help.  Use one channel of the x-over to feed the subs, the other channel to feed the JBL's.

Note that center clusters flown over the performing area will often exhibit a distinct LF standing wave.  I find it usually around 200-250 depending.

I will try that if it's necessary. It would mean I couldn't use the crossover for the center speaker, unless I wanted to run instruments through the center (and I don't).

I will report my findings here after these tests.
Title: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Samuel Rees on February 04, 2013, 09:53:30 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong - seriously - but might it be better to leave the sub with just its built in LPF which I think was previously mentioned, so as not to double filter? If that is the case then you could use one channel for mains, one for cluster. Dick is definitely right though IMHO skip the second test and go right to aux fed. Use the crossover on the mains and cluster. Start out setting it at 120 or so and move down closer to 100 if it sounds like its leaving a hole in between. But, if the slope on the sub is not steep as you say you'll likely want to keep it high.This way, no matter where you set the Vocal HPF, vox never go to the sub. That'll be helpful from just a troubleshooting perspective!
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 05, 2013, 12:23:33 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong - seriously - but might it be better to leave the sub with just its built in LPF which I think was previously mentioned, so as not to double filter? If that is the case then you could use one channel for mains, one for cluster. Dick is definitely right though IMHO skip the second test and go right to aux fed. Use the crossover on the mains and cluster. Start out setting it at 120 or so and move down closer to 100 if it sounds like its leaving a hole in between. But, if the slope on the sub is not steep as you say you'll likely want to keep it high.This way, no matter where you set the Vocal HPF, vox never go to the sub. That'll be helpful from just a troubleshooting perspective!

There's nothing in the documentation that actually states that the sub has a LPF at all. It does however have a limited frequency range, only up to 145Hz at -10dB.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Samuel Rees on February 05, 2013, 12:37:24 AM
There's nothing in the documentation that actually states that the sub has a LPF at all. It does however have a limited frequency range, only up to 145Hz at -10dB.

Ah, I thought I remembered there being a 100 Hz low pass.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 05, 2013, 12:42:03 AM
Ah, I thought I remembered there being a 100 Hz low pass.

I said earlier in the thread that it had a crossover but I was mistaken, it appears to only have the low-cut/high-pass outs for the speakers.

Things will be pretty busy at the church this week, meetings and services every evening. So I might not get a chance to test until next week. We'll see.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 05, 2013, 08:28:51 AM
Alright, my plan this week is to run some tests (assuming I get a chance this week, might have to wait till next week).

Test one: Running a single JBL and the sub, plug the output from the board into the left input on the sub, and plug the speaker into the left "100Hz Low-cut" output. Measure the SPL from approx 6-10 feet away.

Next, plug the output from the board into the right input on the sub and plug the speaker into the right "100Hz Low-cut" output. Measure the SPL again from the same distance.

If the SPL is about the same (less than 3dB difference), then the inputs and outputs are in good working order and we can look to the cables as the most likely culprit. My bet is on the output levels varying significantly.

Test two
: (whether or not this test is necessary will depend upon the results from the first test) Stand next to the sub with a hot mic, make sure the mic is hot enough to be considered typical for a service, but not so hot that there is feedback from the sub when standing close to it.

Roll the high pass filter down until you get feedback from the sub. Roll it back up one notch. This is the lowest HPF setting we can get away with using the sub's built-in crossover (this has usually been around 280Hz).

Next, integrate the dbx crossover into the system, setting the crossover to about 100Hz.

Stand next to the sub once again and turn down the high pass filter, see if it feeds back at the same setting, or if it takes a lower setting to feedback.

If, after all of that, we still have the same issue, then something strange is going on that is beyond my ability to solve.

If you're going to test the system, test it with all the mics in their usual spots.  It's OK to try it with a mic next to the sub or the mains, but that's not going to tell you how the system balances out under typical use.

Feedback frequencies will be position-dependent.  Often, if you move a mic 6 inches one way or the other, the feedback it was producing will disappear.  So if you set it up not to feed back by using a measurement mic right at the speaker, that doesn't mean you won't get feedback with the mic in another position.

Test in regular stage placement.

Test with ALL mics on.  When you encounter feedback, mute the mics one at a time to identify the culprit.  Deal with that mic.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 05, 2013, 03:43:12 PM
If you're going to test the system, test it with all the mics in their usual spots.  It's OK to try it with a mic next to the sub or the mains, but that's not going to tell you how the system balances out under typical use.

Feedback frequencies will be position-dependent.  Often, if you move a mic 6 inches one way or the other, the feedback it was producing will disappear.  So if you set it up not to feed back by using a measurement mic right at the speaker, that doesn't mean you won't get feedback with the mic in another position.

Test in regular stage placement.

Test with ALL mics on.  When you encounter feedback, mute the mics one at a time to identify the culprit.  Deal with that mic.

In that case I should probably just have someone walk all over the stage with a mic, since stage placement changes frequently.

The sub feedback occurred even if only one mic was on. I'll test with all mics on anyway though, just for good measure.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 05, 2013, 03:53:16 PM
In that case I should probably just have someone walk all over the stage with a mic, since stage placement changes frequently.

The sub feedback occurred even if only one mic was on. I'll test with all mics on anyway though, just for good measure.

So if you turn off the sub, does the feedback go away?  Same question for the mains.  If you turn them off but leave the sub on, does the feedback go away?

It still sounds as if something basic is not right. 

With aux fed subs, there would be no mics going to the subs, so it would be impossible for the scenario to repeat.

Hook up the system with the crossover.

Proceed.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Thomas Harkin on February 05, 2013, 04:20:38 PM
In that case I should probably just have someone walk all over the stage with a mic, since stage placement changes frequently.

The sub feedback occurred even if only one mic was on. I'll test with all mics on anyway though, just for good measure.
This is what you are doing to get your "aux fed" subs, right?

http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/a_detailed_explanation_of_the_aux_fed_subwoofer_technique/
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 05, 2013, 04:58:54 PM
So if you turn off the sub, does the feedback go away?  Same question for the mains.  If you turn them off but leave the sub on, does the feedback go away?

It still sounds as if something basic is not right. 

With aux fed subs, there would be no mics going to the subs, so it would be impossible for the scenario to repeat.

Hook up the system with the crossover.

Good question, I can try turning the sub all the way down and see (can't turn it off with the mains on).

@Thomas: Yes, that appears to be how we had the aux fed subs setup in the past.
Proceed.

Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 07, 2013, 01:12:40 AM
Okay, so I had a chance to try a couple of things tonight:

First of all, there is a very noticeable difference in output levels between the left and right channels on the sub.

Second, when I had one speaker hooked up through one channel of the sub, I was able to walk all over the room holding a mic, including right up to the sub, with a HPF setting of 140Hz with no low end feedback. Below 150Hz was a little boomy for me but it was still acceptable. I didn't try going lower than 140.

So, what that tells me is that the high cut out on the sub is working perfectly fine on the one channel. So there's nothing wrong with using the high cut out on the sub.

So now what I want to try to do is run one of the JBLs through that channel, and then daisy chain the other JBL from the first JBL.

It turns out I might not need the crossover after all.
Title: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Samuel Rees on February 07, 2013, 03:36:50 AM
Glad you got it working. I'd want to do aux fed anyway, but that's just my preference where the situation is anything less than perfect. You could use 1 channel for the center cluster at least.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 07, 2013, 04:42:05 PM
Glad you got it working. I'd want to do aux fed anyway, but that's just my preference where the situation is anything less than perfect. You could use 1 channel for the center cluster at least.

AUX feeding isn't off the table, I just want to see if I can get the system working right without having to do that.

Got a 100 ft XLR cable coming in the mail that I'm going to use to daisy chain the JBLs. We'll see how that goes.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 07, 2013, 04:46:32 PM
AUX feeding isn't off the table, I just want to see if I can get the system working right without having to do that.

Got a 100 ft XLR cable coming in the mail that I'm going to use to daisy chain the JBLs. We'll see how that goes.

Aux feeding the subs IS the way to get it working right.  Keeping the mics out of the subs by feeding them only the LF stuff will put you way ahead.


You should really try implementing the advice you've been giving and stop wasting time trying to get along without it. 
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 07, 2013, 05:22:16 PM
Aux feeding the subs IS the way to get it working right.  Keeping the mics out of the subs by feeding them only the LF stuff will put you way ahead.


You should really try implementing the advice you've been giving and stop wasting time trying to get along without it.

AUX feeding doesn't appear to be the standard approach at all. I see very few people running AUX fed subs and they don't have any issues with LF and vocals.

If the system works fine without AUX feeding, why would it be necessary?

If, after I'm done testing, I find I'd prefer to go AUX-fed, I will.

I appreciate the help, I'm thankful for it, but I'm also going to try things out before I decide to change anything.

I don't believe any of what I'm doing right now is a waste of time. I'm simply troubleshooting. I'd rather find the cause for something than just apply a band-aid. In that sense I actually am following the advice given in this thread, I believe.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Scott Wagner on February 07, 2013, 06:10:27 PM
AUX feeding doesn't appear to be the standard approach at all.
For actual audio professionals, AUX-fed subs ARE the standard.  Your big complaint is that you have feedback from the vocal mics in the subs.  AUX-fed subs directly address this issue.  I don't understand your reluctance.

No offense intended, but your knowledge level is seriously lacking.  Those who have replied to you here have some serious credentials, and they know enough to know that even they don't know everything.  If you follow their advice, you'll have a much shorter path towards actually resolving your issues.  If you choose not to, prepare yourself for a long and frustrating experience while you learn the hard way.  We are here to help, but you have to actually allow us to help you.  Eventually, they'll stop trying.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 07, 2013, 06:33:07 PM
For actual audio professionals, AUX-fed subs ARE the standard.  Your big complaint is that you have feedback from the vocal mics in the subs.  AUX-fed subs directly address this issue.  I don't understand your reluctance.

No offense intended, but your knowledge level is seriously lacking.  Those who have replied to you here have some serious credentials, and they know enough to know that even they don't know everything.  If you follow their advice, you'll have a much shorter path towards actually resolving your issues.  If you choose not to, prepare yourself for a long and frustrating experience while you learn the hard way.  We are here to help, but you have to actually allow us to help you.  Eventually, they'll stop trying.

The subwoofer feedback is the least of our worries right now, in my own opinion. I'd say our biggest issue is the comb filtering and mud caused by multiple sources of sound.

My church is the only one I've ever been to where the sub was run off an AUX. Every other sound system I've seen with a top/sub configuration simply used a crossover and ran everything through it. I find it odd to hear now that AUX-fed subs are considered standard...

We used to run an AUX sub for years, when we stopped the sound actually improved. So, I hope you see why that would lead me to believe that going back to aux-fed seems like taking a step backwards.

I don't know as much as a lot of you guys and that's kind of part of the reason I'm doing these tests instead of simply doing what you told me, because I'm trying to learn. I never said that I know everything, I know I don't otherwise I wouldn't be having any of these issues.
Title: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Samuel Rees on February 08, 2013, 12:46:03 AM
Do you understand why, when properly deployed, aux fed subs should not sound any different, with the exception of a reduction of  unwanted sources in the sub??? You've got yourself convinced that aux fed subs "sound worse" - you're wrong. You've got yourself convinced that they are "not standard" - and you are still wrong. Plenty of people don't aux feed, but its a standard config for many pro systems. Both the current venue I work at. (~500 cap) and the previous one (~200 cap) aux fed subs.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 08, 2013, 01:43:43 AM
Do you understand why, when properly deployed, aux fed subs should not sound any different, with the exception of a reduction of  unwanted sources in the sub??? You've got yourself convinced that aux fed subs "sound worse" - you're wrong. You've got yourself convinced that they are "not standard" - and you are still wrong. Plenty of people don't aux feed, but its a standard config for many pro systems. Both the current venue I work at. (~500 cap) and the previous one (~200 cap) aux fed subs.

No, no no. You misunderstand.

I do not think they sound worse. I know why the sound improved after we changed from AUX fed subs, it was simply that we were getting the benefit of the low-cut out from the sub and we weren't getting so many shared frequencies between the tops and sub.

I see the benefit of AUX fed subs, it just doesn't seem necessary if I can fix my issues without it.

And, I had every reason to believe that that was a non standard approach. I don't personally know of anyone that does it. Other than I guess a few of the people on this forum.

That is honestly the only thing I had against AUX fed subs is that I believed that that was not the standard way to do things.

I don't like this attitude though that it's the only way to go. It's not, and I just proved that the other night. Will it be beneficial? Maybe, that depends. First thing I'd have to do is tell the other sound guys to un-learn everything they've ever known about AUX fed subs. Since before, we weren't just leaving the sends to the sub AUX at unity. I know I personally had the kick drum somewhere around +6dB going to the sub and then around unity (or slightly less) going to the tops.

So, the pros of AUX fed subs in my case are:

1. Keeps unwanted sources out of the sub

Cons are:

1. Have to train everyone to do things differently, and that assumes they'll even listen to me instead of just doing what they used to (guess which one's easier?).
2. Cannot make use of the sub's high cut outs (need an external crossover, two if I want one for the center speaker)
3. Lose an AUX (of course, not that big of an issue right now, but there was a point where we were using every AUX...)

If I wind up feeling like there's still too much unwanted stuff in the sub after all this is over with, then I'll absolutely move to an AUX-fed method. If it's not necessary, there's no sense in putting any extra effort into doing it.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on February 08, 2013, 06:57:53 AM
No, no no. You misunderstand.

I do not think they sound worse. I know why the sound improved after we changed from AUX fed subs, it was simply that we were getting the benefit of the low-cut out from the sub and we weren't getting so many shared frequencies between the tops and sub.

I see the benefit of AUX fed subs, it just doesn't seem necessary if I can fix my issues without it.

And, I had every reason to believe that that was a non standard approach. I don't personally know of anyone that does it. Other than I guess a few of the people on this forum.

That is honestly the only thing I had against AUX fed subs is that I believed that that was not the standard way to do things.

I don't like this attitude though that it's the only way to go. It's not, and I just proved that the other night. Will it be beneficial? Maybe, that depends. First thing I'd have to do is tell the other sound guys to un-learn everything they've ever known about AUX fed subs. Since before, we weren't just leaving the sends to the sub AUX at unity. I know I personally had the kick drum somewhere around +6dB going to the sub and then around unity (or slightly less) going to the tops.

So, the pros of AUX fed subs in my case are:

1. Keeps unwanted sources out of the sub

Cons are:

1. Have to train everyone to do things differently, and that assumes they'll even listen to me instead of just doing what they used to (guess which one's easier?).
2. Cannot make use of the sub's high cut outs (need an external crossover, two if I want one for the center speaker)
3. Lose an AUX (of course, not that big of an issue right now, but there was a point where we were using every AUX...)

If I wind up feeling like there's still too much unwanted stuff in the sub after all this is over with, then I'll absolutely move to an AUX-fed method. If it's not necessary, there's no sense in putting any extra effort into doing it.
Jason, I agree with your list of cons. I personally don't like aux fed subs for many of the same reasons. When I bus the subs separately, I prefer to use "group-fed" subs, which accomplishes a couple things - doesn't take an aux. and doesn't require adjusting the sub level per channel. Which makes the subwoofers kind of like an effect.

I also agree with you that this likely isn't your biggest or even second biggest problem. Testing out for yourself the advice you're getting is a great way to not only learn, but to vet what other people say.

One more thing - kudos to you for sticking to this thread through 10 pages. I'm sure it's been a little hard on the pride now and again, but you are definitely heading in the right direction.
Title: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Samuel Rees on February 08, 2013, 09:23:27 AM
Fair enough, do that if you've got your reasons. Training is not something I think about often. I thought you were saying you thought there was some kinda of inherent difference in quality between the two configs, just wanted to make sure that was not your only reason!

+1 On the above, hope this wasn't too painful. Sounds like you've got stuff working a lot better and found a crucial problem!
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 08, 2013, 10:52:10 AM
Thanks guys. Like I said I really do appreciate the advice.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Samantha Wissenbach on February 10, 2013, 03:12:33 PM
Hi jason.  I've been reading along with interest since.  I find it quite interesting that everyone's talking speakers, placement, treatment etc with such limited knowledge of the situation.

Now there are a few things that need to be cleared up before I go any further.

Have I read correct on a previous page that there is no system Eq (ie 32 or so bands) on the mains?
Also does the sub have an individual volume knob on the back?
Do the side speakers have volume knobs on the back?
What feed does the flown speakers get?
What volume in dbA does your usual upbeat / praise songs get played at when measured at the sound desk mixing location? 
How is this different to the stage level near lead singer, front row seats in the ctr, mid row at the ctr
How does the system sound in these "bad areas" with various professionally master tracks (ie from different producers)?
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 10, 2013, 03:17:56 PM
Hi jason.  I've been reading along with interest since.  I find it quite interesting that everyone's talking speakers, placement, treatment etc with such limited knowledge of the situation.

Now there are a few things that need to be cleared up before I go any further.

Have I read correct on a previous page that there is no system Eq (ie 32 or so bands) on the mains?
Also does the sub have an individual volume knob on the back?
Do the side speakers have volume knobs on the back?
What feed does the flown speakers get?
What volume in dbA does your usual upbeat / praise songs get played at when measured at the sound desk mixing location? 
How is this different to the stage level near lead singer, front row seats in the ctr, mid row at the ctr
How does the system sound in these "bad areas" with various professionally master tracks (ie from different producers)?

JJ......

Yeah, you've been following along and paying attention.....NOT.

If you'd been paying attention you'd know that logging in with anything other than your full, real name is against Forum rules.  You'll have to fix that before you can continue to participate.

As to the information you've asked for:

It has been given either in this thread or the other numerous threads on the same topic by the same OP.  And getting any info from Jason has been like pulling teeth.

Go ahead and school us.........after you learn how to follow the rules. 
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Mac Kerr on February 10, 2013, 04:33:38 PM
Hi jason.  I've been reading along with interest since

Please go to your profile and change the "Name" field to your real first and last name as required by the posting rules displayed in the header at the top of the section, and in the Site Rules and Suggestions (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/board,36.0.html) in the Forum Announcements section, and on the registration page when you registered.

Mac
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 12, 2013, 06:56:40 PM
Hi jason.  I've been reading along with interest since.  I find it quite interesting that everyone's talking speakers, placement, treatment etc with such limited knowledge of the situation.

Now there are a few things that need to be cleared up before I go any further.

Have I read correct on a previous page that there is no system Eq (ie 32 or so bands) on the mains?
Also does the sub have an individual volume knob on the back?
Do the side speakers have volume knobs on the back?
What feed does the flown speakers get?
What volume in dbA does your usual upbeat / praise songs get played at when measured at the sound desk mixing location? 
How is this different to the stage level near lead singer, front row seats in the ctr, mid row at the ctr
How does the system sound in these "bad areas" with various professionally master tracks (ie from different producers)?

The Roland M-400 has 4 internal 31-band GEQs that can be switched to 8-band PEQs. I have one 8 band PEQ assigned to each main out.

The sub has an individual volume knob. It is currently set at "noon". I chose that setting after listening to music through the system and turning it up until it sounded "right".

The M-400 sort of "fakes" an LCR setup by using up one of the AUXes, but treating that AUX as a third main out. Each input channel has a percentage to which it is sent to the center channel, from 0 to 100%. I have all of the instruments set to 0% (actually the center send is just turned off for them) and the vocals at 60%, so they're 40% in the L/R main out channels. See picture below:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/Master_Razor/Capture-3_zps6f5e592d.png)

My mixes average between 92dBA and 96dBA, with maximum peaks at 98dBA.

The drum kit can hit 89dB all on its own if the drummer isn't giving an honest effort to play softly, I'd say we average about 85-90dBA of stage noise.

I've never noticed much of an issue when listening to professionally mastered tracks. The differences throughout the room are negligible, although the bass is stronger on the outer aisles of the seating area than in the middle.

As to the information you've asked for:

It has been given either in this thread or the other numerous threads on the same topic by the same OP.  And getting any info from Jason has been like pulling teeth.

This comment I don't understand. I've been more than willing to give information, assuming I have the information. A lot of stuff I just don't know. In the past few months I've learned quite a bit just about my church's audio system and the equipment I have. A few months back I did an inventory of all of our equipment, so now I finally know, for instance, what brand and model of kick drum mic we have.

I can't give dimensions for our room because I don't have them. We apparently don't have blue prints or floor plans for the building so if we wanted to know the dimensions we'd have to actually measure the room, and I don't have a tape measure that goes beyond 40 feet...

I also have no idea what model our center speakers are. I haven't gotten the chance to get a ladder out and get a good luck at them.

Most of the audio equipment we own and a lot of the methods we use have been in place since long before I joined the sound team.

But anyway, if anyone needs more info I'm happy to give it, provided I have it.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Samantha Wissenbach on February 13, 2013, 06:10:47 AM
So do you have any peq setting applied and if so what are they for each output.

What abt the side speakers volume knobs?  Also what are all the settings for the side speakers as there are a few different buttons on the back of them I believe.

Interesting way of doing the LCR but it seems under control.

When you say your mix is 92-96dBA.  That is at the sound desk?

The 85-90dba .... Is that the stage noise at the sound deck or the SPL on stage (lead vocal location) while FOH is at normal levels?

Very interesting regarding bass in the side isles?  Is the bass louder or the highs softer?

Do you have access to a sound level meter?

Sorry abt all the questions but it is really the only way I can get a feel of the room tens of thousands of miles away.

Regarding Mr Rees comment, some time it feels like pulling teeth but I just always remember that everyone had to start with nothing.

The Roland M-400 has 4 internal 31-band GEQs that can be switched to 8-band PEQs. I have one 8 band PEQ assigned to each main out.

The sub has an individual volume knob. It is currently set at "noon". I chose that setting after listening to music through the system and turning it up until it sounded "right".

The M-400 sort of "fakes" an LCR setup by using up one of the AUXes, but treating that AUX as a third main out. Each input channel has a percentage to which it is sent to the center channel, from 0 to 100%. I have all of the instruments set to 0% (actually the center send is just turned off for them) and the vocals at 60%, so they're 40% in the L/R main out channels. See picture below:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/Master_Razor/Capture-3_zps6f5e592d.png)

My mixes average between 92dBA and 96dBA, with maximum peaks at 98dBA.

The drum kit can hit 89dB all on its own if the drummer isn't giving an honest effort to play softly, I'd say we average about 85-90dBA of stage noise.

I've never noticed much of an issue when listening to professionally mastered tracks. The differences throughout the room are negligible, although the bass is stronger on the outer aisles of the seating area than in the middle.

This comment I don't understand. I've been more than willing to give information, assuming I have the information. A lot of stuff I just don't know. In the past few months I've learned quite a bit just about my church's audio system and the equipment I have. A few months back I did an inventory of all of our equipment, so now I finally know, for instance, what brand and model of kick drum mic we have.

I can't give dimensions for our room because I don't have them. We apparently don't have blue prints or floor plans for the building so if we wanted to know the dimensions we'd have to actually measure the room, and I don't have a tape measure that goes beyond
I also have no idea what model our center speakers are. I haven't gotten the chance to get a ladder out and get a good luck at them

Most of the audio equipment we own and a lot of the methods we use have been in place since long before I joined the sound team.

But anyway, if anyone needs more info I'm happy to give it, provided I have it.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 13, 2013, 11:45:21 AM
So do you have any peq setting applied and if so what are they for each output.

What abt the side speakers volume knobs?  Also what are all the settings for the side speakers as there are a few different buttons on the back of them I believe.

Interesting way of doing the LCR but it seems under control.

When you say your mix is 92-96dBA.  That is at the sound desk?

The 85-90dba .... Is that the stage noise at the sound deck or the SPL on stage (lead vocal location) while FOH is at normal levels?

Very interesting regarding bass in the side isles?  Is the bass louder or the highs softer?

Do you have access to a sound level meter?

Sorry abt all the questions but it is really the only way I can get a feel of the room tens of thousands of miles away.

Regarding Mr Rees comment, some time it feels like pulling teeth but I just always remember that everyone had to start with nothing.

Right now I'm just using a HPF on the PEQs at 45Hz. Otherwise the EQ is flat.

The JBLs side speakers' volume knobs are currently at different settings, due to an issue with one of the subwoofer's inputs. You see the JBLs are being fed signal from the 100Hz low-cut outputs on the back of the subwoofer, and the subwoofer is receiving the main L/R outputs from the board. One of the XLR inputs on the back of the sub has been damaged (almost looks like someone hit it with a hammer), and that channel is much quieter than the other one. So I'm compensating for that with the level knobs on the JBLs. Normally I would be setting the volume knob in the lower part of the "+4dB" range near 12 o'clock.

This weekend during rehearsal I'm going to try running the system in mono, sending a mono main out signal to the one fully working channel on the sub, then feeding one JBL from the cooresponding 100Hz low-cut output, and then running the other JBL off of the output from the first JBL.

Each JBL has an EQ button which is set to "boost" when depressed. It is currently set to the "flat" position on both speakers. The input button is set to "line" as opposed to "mic". Again, on both speakers.

I use a radio shack SPL meter to get my dBA measurements and all measurements are made at the desk.

As far as bass volume throughout the room the bass is noticeably stronger on the outer aisles. You can feel it in your feet as you walk from the middle of the room out to either side.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Samantha Wissenbach on February 13, 2013, 09:55:58 PM
What sends to foldbacks are you running and what's their setup (ie. routing, amps, eq, speakers)?

What vocal microphones are you using?

Pls upload a photo standing at the back of the stage looking out over the seating so I can see where the sound is going?

This weekend can you get some sound levels around the place (ie. At lead vocal location facing the lead vocal foldback wedge, right behind the drummer seat, front seats ctr (Pastors Seat), front seats left [ie. in front of side speakers], middle of seating center, rear of seating center) while your running a normal levels at the sound desk (ie. 94dBA).

Are the sound levels you've give for a slow speed and A weighting?

In the future I'm going to be chasing a bit of a plan with some dimensions of the room (including stage dimensions, seating areas, speaker locations, ceiling heights [at the lower edges at least so then I can calculate the apex], sound booth location).  I know you only have a 40' tap so you might have get creative and place something (ie. a pen) on the floor and move the tape along and add up the pieces.

Good to see those EQ buttons at the back are on flat though.

What's the model of your SPL meter?

You said that you can feel the bass in you feet when you move to the sides.  What's the floor made of? (ie. concrete with carpet or timber off the ground/with rooms under)

There's a lot to this sound thing isn't there....

Just to clarify the issues that we are trying to solve:
1. Vocals in front center seating are hard to hear.
2. Vocal mics feedback through the sub with a HPF less than 400Hz or so.
3. ???? Anything else I've particularly missed?



Right now I'm just using a HPF on the PEQs at 45Hz. Otherwise the EQ is flat.

The JBLs side speakers' volume knobs are currently at different settings, due to an issue with one of the subwoofer's inputs. You see the JBLs are being fed signal from the 100Hz low-cut outputs on the back of the subwoofer, and the subwoofer is receiving the main L/R outputs from the board. One of the XLR inputs on the back of the sub has been damaged (almost looks like someone hit it with a hammer), and that channel is much quieter than the other one. So I'm compensating for that with the level knobs on the JBLs. Normally I would be setting the volume knob in the lower part of the "+4dB" range near 12 o'clock.

This weekend during rehearsal I'm going to try running the system in mono, sending a mono main out signal to the one fully working channel on the sub, then feeding one JBL from the cooresponding 100Hz low-cut output, and then running the other JBL off of the output from the first JBL.

Each JBL has an EQ button which is set to "boost" when depressed. It is currently set to the "flat" position on both speakers. The input button is set to "line" as opposed to "mic". Again, on both speakers.

I use a radio shack SPL meter to get my dBA measurements and all measurements are made at the desk.

As far as bass volume throughout the room the bass is noticeably stronger on the outer aisles. You can feel it in your feet as you walk from the middle of the room out to either side.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 14, 2013, 01:48:19 AM
What sends to foldbacks are you running and what's their setup (ie. routing, amps, eq, speakers)?

What vocal microphones are you using?

Pls upload a photo standing at the back of the stage looking out over the seating so I can see where the sound is going?

This weekend can you get some sound levels around the place (ie. At lead vocal location facing the lead vocal foldback wedge, right behind the drummer seat, front seats ctr (Pastors Seat), front seats left [ie. in front of side speakers], middle of seating center, rear of seating center) while your running a normal levels at the sound desk (ie. 94dBA).

Are the sound levels you've give for a slow speed and A weighting?

In the future I'm going to be chasing a bit of a plan with some dimensions of the room (including stage dimensions, seating areas, speaker locations, ceiling heights [at the lower edges at least so then I can calculate the apex], sound booth location).  I know you only have a 40' tap so you might have get creative and place something (ie. a pen) on the floor and move the tape along and add up the pieces.

Good to see those EQ buttons at the back are on flat though.

What's the model of your SPL meter?

You said that you can feel the bass in you feet when you move to the sides.  What's the floor made of? (ie. concrete with carpet or timber off the ground/with rooms under)

There's a lot to this sound thing isn't there....

Just to clarify the issues that we are trying to solve:
1. Vocals in front center seating are hard to hear.
2. Vocal mics feedback through the sub with a HPF less than 400Hz or so.
3. ???? Anything else I've particularly missed?

We have two wedges/floor monitors, one used for the background vocalists and one used for the acoustic guitarist.

They are both running off of AUXes going to a Mackie M1400i power amp. No EQ on the wedges.

We're using 3 different generations of Sennheiser mics. A single EW100, two EW100 G2s and two EW365 G3s. The two lead vocalists are using the 365s which are super-cardioid condensers. The backing vocalists have dynamic cardioid mics. We also have one singer on a Sennheiser e845 super-cardioid mic.

I'll get a picture of the seating from the stage this weekend some time.

This is our SPL meter:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/Master_Razor/radioshak_sound_meter_zpse70c3a00.jpg)

I run it with an "A" weighting and at a "slow" response.

I don't know what the floor is made of, it almost feels "hollow". Certainly doesn't feel like carpet over concrete.

The vocal feedback through the sub is a non-issue at this point as I've found that by eliminating the "bad" channel on our sub I can set the high pass filter back down to a reasonable level without any excess low end from the mics.

Main issue is an inconsistency of sound throughout the room, e.g. vocals are hard to hear in some spots, piano is hard to hear in some spots, guitar and drums get quieter or louder in different parts of the room, bass gets more intense on the outer aisles, etc...
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Samantha Wissenbach on February 14, 2013, 05:16:21 AM
 Does the drummer not have a foldback?

Are the floor monitor any particular make or model or just a generic speaker?

Is the floor level somewhat higher than the ground surrounding the building or is there a basement under?

Very interesting regarding the sub feedback stopping.  I would never have thought that but yes sometimes strange things like that seem to happen.

Is the balcony used for much as it looks like the lighting truss is in the view line of the main screen?

I see the drums are miked.  Do you use them much?

Do you have the facilities to record you FOH mixes?

How do you find the Senn microphones?  Do u use much channel eq on them?

From your description, I'm getting the feeling that the general mix in the general seating area is lacking clarity with possibly the exception of the area right in front of the side speakers.  You said that some area are ok and others are not so good. Is this correct
is



We have two wedges/floor monitors, one used for the background vocalists and one used for the acoustic guitarist.

They are both running off of AUXes going to a Mackie M1400i power amp. No EQ on the wedges.

We're using 3 different generations of Sennheiser mics. A single EW100, two EW100 G2s and two EW365 G3s. The two lead vocalists are using the 365s which are super-cardioid condensers. The backing vocalists have dynamic cardioid mics. We also have one singer on a Sennheiser e845 super-cardioid mic.

I'll get a picture of the seating from the stage this weekend some time.

This is our SPL meter:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/Master_Razor/radioshak_sound_meter_zpse70c3a00.jpg)

I run it with an "A" weighting and at a "slow" response.

I don't know what the floor is made of, it almost feels "hollow". Certainly doesn't feel like carpet over concrete.

The vocal feedback through the sub is a non-issue at this point as I've found that by eliminating the "bad" channel on our sub I can set the high pass filter back down to a reasonable level without any excess low end from the mics.

Main issue is an inconsistency of sound throughout the room, e.g. vocals are hard to hear in some spots, piano is hard to hear in some spots, guitar and drums get quieter or louder in different parts of the room, bass gets more intense on the outer aisles, etc...
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 14, 2013, 11:40:38 AM
Drummer and both keyboard players use IEMs. Backing vocalists and acoustic guitarist use floor monitors. Bassist just monitors himself through the sub and the lead vocalists don't use any monitoring at all.

The two floor monitors are Genz Benz SM12Hs. Model not only appears to be discontinued but also doesn't show up in their discontinued gear page.

There isn't a basement underneath, the floor is only a little bit higher than the ground outside.

The lighting person, the person running easy worship and the person recording the audio for the service all work up in the balcony.

Lately I've only been using the kick drum mic and maybe the tom mics during passages where there's a lot of toms.

I could record the main L/R mix, but it wouldn't be very representative of how the mix sounds in the room because the guitars and drums would be practically silent.

The Sennheiser mics appear to have a significant boost in the high frequencies, which can really bring out the sibilance in our vocalists to the point where a de-esser becomes necessary. I used to cut out a fair portion of the frequencies above 6KHz, but now I just use a "channel strip" effect insert on those channels because it has a de-esser on it.

In the back of the room you can hear everything pretty loud and clear. Near the front of the room is where the clarity basically starts to fall off, and once you get to the front row it sounds basically completely different than it did in the back, like there's a dead zone in the front row. There is also some difference between the center aisle and outter aisles, but less so.

Oddly enough the guitars and drums are quieter in the front row than the back row. I imagine this is possibly due to the walls behind the musicians reflecting the sound back.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Samantha Wissenbach on February 14, 2013, 07:18:06 PM
What model IEMs are the drummer and keyboard players using?  How are they fed?

The lighting, screen control and audio recording is done up on the balcony but your sound booth is down on the seating floor.  Is this correct?

Sounds like possibly a floating timber floor over a concrete or just over bear earth.  What's the wall construction (ie. concrete/timber frame)?

Can you record the L/R mains this weekend please?  I'd like to have a listen to what's getting fed to the sub & mains.  Even better would be to set up two mics (they need to be the same type and I'll need to know the models) in an XY config (ie. the heads about 1' apart and separated by about 70° facing center stage) near the sound desk and record them.  However for now, just the mains will probably be easier.  128bps stereo mp3 will be fine say about 5-10mins worth / 1 or 2 songs ... more if you want though.

Regarding the drums and guitar being louder at the back than the front, I think that what you will probably find is that the Drums and Guitar are much the same but that your Highs in everything else is dying off at the back making the illusion that the drums and guitar are getting louder.  It's all about the balance.

On that point, can you also get a photo of the guitar amp setup (ie. location, direction it is facing, angle up, etc)?

I'll give you something to try for the weekend though.  Put the following EQ on the vocals and AC guitar foldback (NOT their individual input channels but the AUX sent).

200Hz HPF
-6db @ 330Hz with a Q=4
+3dB @ 3.3kHz with a Q=5.6
+3.5kHz @ 10kHz with a Q=5.6

See the two very important points below and ensure their adhearance before implementing the following.  If anyone on stage says that it's to harsh turn the overall monitor level down.  Try that first and if they need it louder again but still say it too harsh put the overall volume back up and lower the 10kHz gain first in a few steps trying it each time ... then if it is still to harsh for them with 0dB @ 10kHz then lower the 3.5kHz as with the 10kHz in a few steps ... try it and then if it is still to harsh for them then slowly put the 330Hz back in just like you backed the 10kHz off in a few steps ... try it and then if it is still not right lower the HPF in a few steps back to wherever you had it originally. 

VERY IMPORTANT POINT:
1.  Make sure that you trial it throughout a song as opposed to them just talking into the microphone themselves.
JUST AS IMPORTANT POINT:
2.  Ensure that the Main Speakers are running at normal levels. 

The reasoning behind this is to ensure the vocalists and guitarist hear the fullness (lower muddy frequencies) from the FOH speakers but the clarity (higher frequencies) from their foldback.  It also means that the FOH doesn't get the wash of fullness from the foldback and thus muddy up the seating area (ie. FOH).  In my experience using this method, the stage people are usually saying it's too loud on stage before I feel like the stage levels need to come down. 

Let me know how it goes (but don't forget all the other things you need to do too ... ie. recording, photos, getting various levels around the room & stage)?

PS:  I have a few other things for you to try but we'll keep them for another day.

Drummer and both keyboard players use IEMs. Backing vocalists and acoustic guitarist use floor monitors. Bassist just monitors himself through the sub and the lead vocalists don't use any monitoring at all.

The two floor monitors are Genz Benz SM12Hs. Model not only appears to be discontinued but also doesn't show up in their discontinued gear page.

There isn't a basement underneath, the floor is only a little bit higher than the ground outside.

The lighting person, the person running easy worship and the person recording the audio for the service all work up in the balcony.

Lately I've only been using the kick drum mic and maybe the tom mics during passages where there's a lot of toms.

I could record the main L/R mix, but it wouldn't be very representative of how the mix sounds in the room because the guitars and drums would be practically silent.

The Sennheiser mics appear to have a significant boost in the high frequencies, which can really bring out the sibilance in our vocalists to the point where a de-esser becomes necessary. I used to cut out a fair portion of the frequencies above 6KHz, but now I just use a "channel strip" effect insert on those channels because it has a de-esser on it.

In the back of the room you can hear everything pretty loud and clear. Near the front of the room is where the clarity basically starts to fall off, and once you get to the front row it sounds basically completely different than it did in the back, like there's a dead zone in the front row. There is also some difference between the center aisle and outter aisles, but less so.

Oddly enough the guitars and drums are quieter in the front row than the back row. I imagine this is possibly due to the walls behind the musicians reflecting the sound back.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 15, 2013, 10:56:30 AM
I'll try to get to the rest of the questions this weekend but I thought I'd hit these ones now.

What model IEMs are the drummer and keyboard players using?  How are they fed?

The drummer is using Vic Firth headphones: http://www.vicfirth.com/products/headphones.php

I don't know if she uses the "drummer headphones" or the "stereo isolation headphones".

I think the piano/keyboard players are using Shure IEMs. We have an "OZ audio" (now Mackie) HMX-56 Headphone matrix mixer on stage that gets fed 3 different mono AUX sends from FOH.

The lighting, screen control and audio recording is done up on the balcony but your sound booth is down on the seating floor.  Is this correct?

Yes, that is correct.

Sounds like possibly a floating timber floor over a concrete or just over bear earth.  What's the wall construction (ie. concrete/timber frame)?

Timber frame, I imagine. I very much doubt there is any concrete there. Although the wall behind the stage/baptismal has brick behind it, unlike the other walls.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Samantha Wissenbach on February 15, 2013, 04:46:01 PM
The drummer is using Vic Firth headphones: http://www.vicfirth.com/products/headphones.php
I don't know if she uses the "drummer headphones" or the "stereo isolation headphones".
Ummm.  I'm not exactly understanding reasons I suppose.  Can you explain a bit of the reasoning and history behind the drum screen & roof and the drummer having noise attenuation headphones?  The drum screen to me suggests that the drums are being/have been played too loud in the past for FOH &/ stage.  This is the most common reason for such treatment.  Is that correct in this case too? 

To be honest when the drummer is playing at 95dBA but hearing it at 70dBA (ie. -25dB due to the headphones) then yes they are going to be giving it every thing just to hear themselves.  Makes for very physical, intense & passionate drumming but very loud, obnoxious clanging for everyone else in the room. 

So back to my question ... Can you explain a bit of the reasoning and history behind the drum screen & roof and the drummer having noise attenuation headphones from your end?
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 15, 2013, 05:19:26 PM
Ummm.  I'm not exactly understanding reasons I suppose.  Can you explain a bit of the reasoning and history behind the drum screen & roof and the drummer having noise attenuation headphones?  The drum screen to me suggests that the drums are being/have been played too loud in the past for FOH &/ stage.  This is the most common reason for such treatment.  Is that correct in this case too? 

To be honest when the drummer is playing at 95dBA but hearing it at 70dBA (ie. -25dB due to the headphones) then yes they are going to be giving it every thing just to hear themselves.  Makes for very physical, intense & passionate drumming but very loud, obnoxious clanging for everyone else in the room. 

So back to my question ... Can you explain a bit of the reasoning and history behind the drum screen & roof and the drummer having noise attenuation headphones from your end?

Everything I know about that is second hand, since that was all said and done without my involvement or input...

We implemented a drum cage sometime around 2008, to help control the drum volume which, at the time, was definitely too high.

We've had the drummer on IEMs for as long as I can remember. I don't know if they've always been on IEMs of the noise-cancelling variety, but they've always had ear buds or headphones.

I am (soon, hopefully) working on completely changing how we mic the drums, and strongly considering eliminating the shield, but it will depend on how quiet the drummers are capable of playing.

My goal is to, whenever I actually get the chance, get a couple of our drummers and rework our drum micing, monitoring, and the shield.

At least one of the drummers has shown that they can play at a suitable volume level without the shield, but we really need to fix our drum mics and monitoring for the drummer before it can go away.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Samantha Wissenbach on February 16, 2013, 04:26:24 PM
Yea, have a check into the history of it and get back.  On a side note, I wouldn't restrict yourself by saying that you've got to get the drum micing all good because you probably will find that you won't want more than you have already.

Either way the sheild can probably stay.  I think the main thing is to get the ear muffs off the drummer so they can hear themself.  In this case I think a foldback wedge would be useful.  Maybe not though.  If the drummer cann't hear the lead vocalist, maybe they should play a little softer and thus it will reduce the drum level.  However, they do need to hear the vocals clearly to play togther as a band so I think that they need some foldback for clarity.  The drummers need to feel like they're in the same room to that they can work with you and not all on their own in their own sound world in their own little room. It can feel very isolating. Not good.

That's really what church is all about ... being together and sharing the experience and life with each other.  Always take some time to think about that aspect.  It's so easy to get consumed with just the technical sound aspects.

Looking forward to the recordings.   ;)



Everything I know about that is second hand, since that was all said and done without my involvement or input...

We implemented a drum cage sometime around 2008, to help control the drum volume which, at the time, was definitely too high.

We've had the drummer on IEMs for as long as I can remember. I don't know if they've always been on IEMs of the noise-cancelling variety, but they've always had ear buds or headphones.

I am (soon, hopefully) working on completely changing how we mic the drums, and strongly considering eliminating the shield, but it will depend on how quiet the drummers are capable of playing.

My goal is to, whenever I actually get the chance, get a couple of our drummers and rework our drum micing, monitoring, and the shield.

At least one of the drummers has shown that they can play at a suitable volume level without the shield, but we really need to fix our drum mics and monitoring for the drummer before it can go away.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 16, 2013, 07:03:34 PM
Yea, have a check into the history of it and get back.  On a side note, I wouldn't restrict yourself by saying that you've got to get the drum micing all good because you probably will find that you won't want more than you have already.

Either way the sheild can probably stay.  I think the main thing is to get the ear muffs off the drummer so they can hear themself.  In this case I think a foldback wedge would be useful.  Maybe not though.  If the drummer cann't hear the lead vocalist, maybe they should play a little softer and thus it will reduce the drum level.  However, they do need to hear the vocals clearly to play togther as a band so I think that they need some foldback for clarity.  The drummers need to feel like they're in the same room to that they can work with you and not all on their own in their own sound world in their own little room. It can feel very isolating. Not good.

That's really what church is all about ... being together and sharing the experience and life with each other.  Always take some time to think about that aspect.  It's so easy to get consumed with just the technical sound aspects.

Looking forward to the recordings.   ;)

We're definitely not putting a foldback in the drum cage. For several reasons:

1) We don't have an extra foldback to spare (and getting one that sounds as good as the drummer's headphones would be cost prohibitive)
2) A foldback wouldn't really fit in there. There's barely enough room for what we already have in there.
3) We're trying to move away from amps and wedges, with the end goal of having everyone on IEMs.

The drummer needs some sort of monitor in order to hear the rest of the band, and they already have one that works well. The church isn't going to go out and buy a monitor wedge when the drummer already has a working monitor solution.

I'm looking at going from spot mics on each drum to just a good pair of overheads and using the "recorderman" drum micing technique to get a good image of the entire kit. My goal is to make it so the sound coming into the overheads matches the unamplified sound of the kit as closely as possible. Then, we'd put those mics in the drummer's ears loud enough so that they can clearly hear themselves and don't have to play too hard.

After that, we can keep the cage if needed, or otherwise ditch it.

Anyway I also had a concern about the recording. We aren't really doing any original music, it's mostly Hillsong stuff, and while we have a church copyright license (and a rehearsal license, I believe) from CCLI but not a streaming and podcast license or similar license so I don't think I'm legally allowed to post a recording of our worship here on a public forum...
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Samantha Wissenbach on February 17, 2013, 12:22:34 AM
Get the recording but we'll work out a way of transferring is via a public forum.  I'll PM you.

So your not too concern about the volume of the drums on stage and in the seating area at the moment?



We're definitely not putting a foldback in the drum cage. For several reasons:

1) We don't have an extra foldback to spare (and getting one that sounds as good as the drummer's headphones would be cost prohibitive)
2) A foldback wouldn't really fit in there. There's barely enough room for what we already have in there.
3) We're trying to move away from amps and wedges, with the end goal of having everyone on IEMs.

The drummer needs some sort of monitor in order to hear the rest of the band, and they already have one that works well. The church isn't going to go out and buy a monitor wedge when the drummer already has a working monitor solution.

I'm looking at going from spot mics on each drum to just a good pair of overheads and using the "recorderman" drum micing technique to get a good image of the entire kit. My goal is to make it so the sound coming into the overheads matches the unamplified sound of the kit as closely as possible. Then, we'd put those mics in the drummer's ears loud enough so that they can clearly hear themselves and don't have to play too hard.

After that, we can keep the cage if needed, or otherwise ditch it.

Anyway I also had a concern about the recording. We aren't really doing any original music, it's mostly Hillsong stuff, and while we have a church copyright license (and a rehearsal license, I believe) from CCLI but not a streaming and podcast license or similar license so I don't think I'm legally allowed to post a recording of our worship here on a public forum...
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 17, 2013, 01:58:26 AM
Get the recording but we'll work out a way of transferring is via a public forum.  I'll PM you.

So your not too concern about the volume of the drums on stage and in the seating area at the moment?

The drum volume is really more of an annoyance than an "issue". No complaints from the audience about overwhelming drums. Would like some more control though. I think we'll find a way, just need to keep working at it.

Update after mixing tonight:

I changed the way the speakers are hooked up. One of the JBLs is hooked up to the 100Hz low-cut output (the fully functional one) and the other JBL is daisy chained off the first.

Had all the microphones' HPF settings down to about 180Hz. Any lower and the vocals get a tad too "boomy" for my taste. The sound was pretty good tonight, clean and full. I think our bass has actually improved. I no longer notice a big change between the middle of the room and the outer aisles.

I also have a recording of tonight's worship set on a USB drive. I don't normally mix on Sunday mornings, but this week I am, so I'm going to record that service as well.
Title: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Samuel Rees on February 17, 2013, 08:00:35 AM
Sounds like you've eliminated a problem! 180 is a completely reasonable vocal HPF. The old 250++ settings were a symptom. One channel lpf must be bad on that sub.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 17, 2013, 02:47:38 PM
Sounds like you've eliminated a problem! 180 is a completely reasonable vocal HPF. The old 250++ settings were a symptom. One channel lpf must be bad on that sub.

Actually I think it's a problem with one of the inputs, the XLR connector looks like it was hit with a hammer or something.

Update after sound this morning: To be quite honest, this morning's sound was probably the best I've ever heard in this building.

I took the SPL meter up to the front row and there's about a 1-2dB increase in volume from back in the booth. Negligible, but noticeable if you're listening for it.

We're still using our center speaker, running it off an AUX.

As far as spoken word clarity throughout the room, it apparently sounded kind of muddy underneath the balcony, noticeably better near the booth, and the muddyness was nearly imperceptible in the seating area. Or at least that's what one of the ushers told me.

Samantha: I have two recordings ready.
Title: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Samuel Rees on February 17, 2013, 03:17:35 PM
Input, filter, whatever one channel wasn't working for you. Long thread, but it seems like you've gained some ground!
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Samantha Wissenbach on February 17, 2013, 08:53:08 PM
So what your saying is that it's the cable to the sub and not the sub itself.  It this correct?

1-2 dB difference is sounding good.  Still looking forward to those photos from up on stage as I'm not yet clear as to the size, height & depth of the balcony arrangement.

Center cluster AUXed:  I don't think that you'll be able to get rid of that arrangement to be quite honest.  We might look at the signal getting sent there but that's all.  For now hardware wise, I think that you really do need that centre cluster and in it's right location and aimed at the correct direction.

I'm glad to hear that the sound was good this weekend.  What do you feel made the change?

Did you get to those EQ setting on the foldbacks?

Jason:  Got those recording.  I will listen to them later and get back to you.  Thanks for that.


Actually I think it's a problem with one of the inputs, the XLR connector looks like it was hit with a hammer or something.

Update after sound this morning: To be quite honest, this morning's sound was probably the best I've ever heard in this building.

I took the SPL meter up to the front row and there's about a 1-2dB increase in volume from back in the booth. Negligible, but noticeable if you're listening for it.

We're still using our center speaker, running it off an AUX.

As far as spoken word clarity throughout the room, it apparently sounded kind of muddy underneath the balcony, noticeably better near the booth, and the muddyness was nearly imperceptible in the seating area. Or at least that's what one of the ushers told me.

Samantha: I have two recordings ready.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Samantha Wissenbach on February 18, 2013, 02:04:47 AM
Samantha: I have two recordings ready.
Well thankyou very much for those recording.  First I must commend your fine team on stage ... make sure you pass that on to them.  Your lead singer lead well and the elec guitarist was right there supporting.  The bass player was playing with definition (I'll be giving my bass player a listen to him/her before Sunday).  The keys, acoustic and backing singers were in the mix but were only audible hear and there.  The drummer was pretty solid too and I'm sure even stronger in the room as opposed to the recording.

Now regarding the mix part itself.  This has two parts which I'll like to point out first and we'll discuss them first.

Point 1:  The general bass end (of the frequency spectrum not necessarily the bass guitar) was very overpowering by about 8dB.  Assuming that it generally sounded alright in the room, indicates that the system EQ needs a boost of about the same so that your not putting it in the mix. 

It seems strange that that would be the case as you said that professional mixes (ie. CD tracks) sounded ok.  I'm assuming that was with flat EQ on the CD channel.  Is this correct?


Point 2:  Even out of the room (ie. in the recording) your vocals were lacking clarity.  They seemed behind (I'll explain the term "behind" another day) the guitar and the drum on the Saturday Mix and still behind the guitar on the Sunday Mix (the drum were a fair bit back in the Sunday mix) but the vocals were still lacking clarity.

Can you have a listen to the two recording yourself on a reasonable sound system be that home hi-fi, car, PA system (but not the church system) and let me know what your thoughts and feelings are regarding the following:
1.  How the recording itself sounds (ie. overall tonal balance, instrument clarity and levels, vocals clarity & levels, etc)?
2.  How they reflected the live room sound.

Question:  When you are standing about 1/3rd of the seating area back from the front row of seats in the center isle and shut your eyes, describe which direction do you are hearing the vocalists from (ie. which direction does it sound like the vocalists are).
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 18, 2013, 12:26:30 PM
I don't have access to any real hifi system, I just have my computer speakers and my Sony MDRs.

That said, I took a close listen on both.

The Saturday recording is just a very bad representation of my mix. The balance between vocals and instruments was nothing like that in the room on Saturday.

Also, neither of these recordings took into account the fact that I also have vocals going to a center speaker AUX. I'm fairly certain the recordings would be a good 75-80% vocal if I had included that. Rest assured, in the room the vocals are absolutely the dominant part of the mix.

Now, as to the Sunday recording:

On my speakers the bass was not overpowering at all, perfectly normal for my mixes, in fact I was surprised to hear the kick drum that clearly, as most of the time when I've recorded just the mains out off the board, you can't hear it at all.

The guitars were a little all over the place volume wise but it was that way in the room too, the guitar players are not always very consistent, especially with volume pedal settings. There were >6dB jumps in signal level when the guitar players changed pedals.

I would have made the lead vocalist a little more prominent if this was the mix I was hearing while in the room, but not a whole lot more I don't think. The background vocalists are right about where I would want them.

Also, had I known that that's what the drums sounded like coming through the mains I'd have made some changes. For one thing, the overheads sound too hot compared to the snare. I would have made the snare quite a bit louder and turned the overheads down a bit. The toms also sound like garbage in this recording.

When I listened through my Sony MDR headphones, I only thought the bass was just a little too loud, maybe 3dB. After adjusting that, turning down the OHs, and turning up the snare I think I'd be rather happy with the Sunday mix if I was listening on cans.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Samantha Wissenbach on February 19, 2013, 12:34:14 AM
It's a little hard to compare our comments on the mix without an independent system.  The MDRs aren't to bad.  When I listened with my MDRs the bass wasn't as noticable but the MDRs do have dip in the bass and you have to hold the cans to get their full subbass level to work to any extent.  Even so I still prefered the Saturday mix to the Sunday balance wise.  I thought that the vocals in the Sunday mix really were lacking clarity and sparkle.  On that note, the reverb effect used on the lead vocalist seems to have a long reverb time (ie seconds as opposed to hundreds of milliseconds) which fakingly seem to spark him but not really as such.  Eq would have in my opinion worked better.

I'm well aware of the fact that the vocals had the extra in AUXed cluster.  That was why I asked the question.  That brings up another point from several pages back before I arrived regarding the Sub being AUXed.  I had to cringe when the others were saying that it was standard practice.  Not at all.  It's too hard to control the mains system and the overall system reponse.  I've tried previously and it just ain't pretty.  You can't get a good consistant reference sound out of the system.  Thus, I'd be in preference to your current setup of having the sub set with the main LR.  I'd almost go one step further and say that really you should also have that center cluster being sent the same signal but maybe with a higher frequency high pass filter (say 1kHz).  This however might be a bit more difficult for you to implement given the current setup but just putting the idea out there for thought.

For your own mixing education and knowledge, it may pay you to A/B your mix against a professional CD just to get a quick idea of how they compare and to ensure that you have sufficient clarity in you mix.  As I always say - results are typically 85% how you use the tools and 15% the tools themself ... although sometimes I'd like to push that to 95% and 5%.  So much rests on the person in control and not the equipment.

Well there so much more that could be done but it really depends on how far you wanted to improve the setup of the existing system.  Based on your comments after the weekend you and others in your church seemed pretty happy with the current arrangements.  Let me know if you want any further direction in this area.




I don't have access to any real hifi system, I just have my computer speakers and my Sony MDRs.

That said, I took a close listen on both.

The Saturday recording is just a very bad representation of my mix. The balance between vocals and instruments was nothing like that in the room on Saturday.

Also, neither of these recordings took into account the fact that I also have vocals going to a center speaker AUX. I'm fairly certain the recordings would be a good 75-80% vocal if I had included that. Rest assured, in the room the vocals are absolutely the dominant part of the mix.

Now, as to the Sunday recording:

On my speakers the bass was not overpowering at all, perfectly normal for my mixes, in fact I was surprised to hear the kick drum that clearly, as most of the time when I've recorded just the mains out off the board, you can't hear it at all.

The guitars were a little all over the place volume wise but it was that way in the room too, the guitar players are not always very consistent, especially with volume pedal settings. There were >6dB jumps in signal level when the guitar players changed pedals.

I would have made the lead vocalist a little more prominent if this was the mix I was hearing while in the room, but not a whole lot more I don't think. The background vocalists are right about where I would want them.

Also, had I known that that's what the drums sounded like coming through the mains I'd have made some changes. For one thing, the overheads sound too hot compared to the snare. I would have made the snare quite a bit louder and turned the overheads down a bit. The toms also sound like garbage in this recording.

When I listened through my Sony MDR headphones, I only thought the bass was just a little too loud, maybe 3dB. After adjusting that, turning down the OHs, and turning up the snare I think I'd be rather happy with the Sunday mix if I was listening on cans.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 19, 2013, 12:48:33 AM
Thanks for the suggestions. Thanks to everyone here, actually. This thread lead me to pursue an idea that helped improve our sound, and in the process I've learned more about our system and more about system tuning in general (even if I never touched an EQ knob...).

If I have any specific questions I'll come back and ask but I think I've got plenty to work on as it is. Thanks again.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on April 02, 2013, 10:37:03 PM
I wanted to ask something regarding all of this.

If my church decides to do things the right way and hire a consultant to come in and design a system that fits our needs, is there a ball park estimate as to how much money we'd be spending?

I know there are a ton of variables involved, but regardless of what the church decides to do, if we're going to buy new speakers, we're going to need to do fundraising. Probably several months if not a couple of years worth. So having a number, even if it's an extremely rough estimate, of how much it will cost to hire the consultant, and how much the equipment will cost (including speakers, amps and DSP) will give us a nice goal to shoot for.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jared Koopman on April 03, 2013, 12:14:00 AM
I wanted to ask something regarding all of this.

If my church decides to do things the right way and hire a consultant to come in and design a system that fits our needs, is there a ball park estimate as to how much money we'd be spending?

I know there are a ton of variables involved, but regardless of what the church decides to do, if we're going to buy new speakers, we're going to need to do fundraising. Probably several months if not a couple of years worth. So having a number, even if it's an extremely rough estimate, of how much it will cost to hire the consultant, and how much the equipment will cost (including speakers, amps and DSP) will give us a nice goal to shoot for.

A good consultant should be able to help you find that number. We could say a whole bunch of numbers and none of them would be meaningful.

Perhaps it isn't pick a budget and then design the system, you might be best served to design the system around what you need it to do and then determine if you can afford it. If you need to scale the design back in order to meet budget at least the core of it will still be there that you can build off of.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on April 03, 2013, 01:37:56 AM
A good consultant should be able to help you find that number. We could say a whole bunch of numbers and none of them would be meaningful.

Perhaps it isn't pick a budget and then design the system, you might be best served to design the system around what you need it to do and then determine if you can afford it. If you need to scale the design back in order to meet budget at least the core of it will still be there that you can build off of.

Yeah but the point is that the budget is $0 right now. There is no system that will fit our budget. We need to know how much we'll need so then we know how much we need to save up. Like I said it will take several months most likely.

We priced an IEM system at $3300 and that's what we're currently putting away money towards.

It seems odd to hire a consultant, have him get you a quote and tell him. "Great, see you again in a year or two when we have the money."
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on April 03, 2013, 01:45:36 AM
...is there a ball park estimate as to how much money we'd be spending?

It's a pretty big ballpark, probably somewhere in the range of $10 - $200 per seat (or more), depending on the size and shape of your facility, the program material you will present, and your desires and expectations.

If you can find an independent, fee-based designer/consultant that isn't in the business of selling equipment and has a good reputation (check references), you will likely get an honest assessment and a well-designed system.

Yeah but the point is that the budget is $0 right now. There is no system that will fit our budget. We need to know how much we'll need so then we know how much we need to save up. Like I said it will take several months most likely.

I like that plan. Identify the needs, identify the way to fulfill those needs, then plan the implementation as the budget allows.

Quote
It seems odd to hire a consultant, have him get you a quote and tell him. "Great, see you again in a year or two when we have the money."

All the more reason to hire the consultant based on fee rather than commission. Then you will feel free to take as much time as you want, possibly even shop around if the consultant agrees. You may be able to negotiate a fee-for-service contract that allows you to take the consultant's design and shop it around for the best deal on materials and installation.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on April 03, 2013, 02:00:11 AM
It's a pretty big ballpark, probably somewhere in the range of $10 - $200 per seat (or more), depending on the size and shape of your facility, the program material you will present, and your desires and expectations.

If you can find an independent, fee-based designer/consultant that isn't in the business of selling equipment and has a good reputation (check references), you will likely get an honest assessment and a well-designed system.

I like that plan. Identify the needs, identify the way to fulfill those needs, then plan the implementation as the budget allows.

All the more reason to hire the consultant based on fee rather than commission. Then you will feel free to take as much time as you want, possibly even shop around if the consultant agrees. You may be able to negotiate a fee-for-service contract that allows you to take the consultant's design and shop it around for the best deal on materials and installation.

Any suggestions as to where I can find fee-based consultants specifically? How much does a consulting fee run, typically?
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Lee Buckalew on April 03, 2013, 07:51:08 AM
Any suggestions as to where I can find fee-based consultants specifically? How much does a consulting fee run, typically?

They (we) are all over.  Check references well.  The fee range can vary widely.  If you want a single, known fee going in then you will have to clearly define and limit the scope of services.  Some consultants will work on a project fee basis others on a daily fee basis, some hourly, travel/on-site days are often billed differently than other days.  O.o.p (out of pocket) expenses are typically billed separately, some bill on as as incurred basis for o.o.p. expenses at actual cost while others charge a percentage over cost since the consultant carries the expense over time and is often being charged a fee to have the expenses on their credit card(s).
Often the budget development process brings to light areas of concern that had not previously been considered (do you need an intercom system designed in, you use the facilities for public, non-church related events so maybe ADA compliant hearing assit systems are required, etc.). 

Lee
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on April 03, 2013, 10:54:25 AM
They (we) are all over.  Check references well.  The fee range can vary widely.  If you want a single, known fee going in then you will have to clearly define and limit the scope of services.  Some consultants will work on a project fee basis others on a daily fee basis, some hourly, travel/on-site days are often billed differently than other days.  O.o.p (out of pocket) expenses are typically billed separately, some bill on as as incurred basis for o.o.p. expenses at actual cost while others charge a percentage over cost since the consultant carries the expense over time and is often being charged a fee to have the expenses on their credit card(s).
Often the budget development process brings to light areas of concern that had not previously been considered (do you need an intercom system designed in, you use the facilities for public, non-church related events so maybe ADA compliant hearing assit systems are required, etc.). 

Lee

Alright, but this:

They (we) are all over.  Check references well.

Really doesn't tell me anything. How do you look up this kind of person? Is there a directory of sound consultants somewhere?
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Brad Weber on April 03, 2013, 11:15:58 AM
Just to add to what has already been said, whether you involve a Consultant, go the design/build route with a Contractor or try DIY, I think you can always benefit from first defining what it is you are trying to do and achieve and documenting what is defined so that it can be used as a reference throughout the project.  That not only makes the most of the efforts of outside parties and helps provide a delineation of what you consider a successful result but also provides a reference for internal use.  In fact in many cases getting consensus internally on what is desired can be half the battle and one that you may be able to do much of on your own or with limited help.

One reason for that is that in most cases the desired result is not specific equipment but rather certain functionality, capabilities and performance.  Your Pastor may not care what mixer and speakers are used but they may care greatly that what they say is clearly understood by everyone.  Your musicians may not care what monitor system is used but they may want it to function in a certain way.  The Building Committee may have input on aesthetic considerations.  And so on, in many cases a successful result is defined by what the system does and how well it works rather than by the equipment used and those are aspects you may be able to greatly define before involving outside help.

At the same time, the earlier you can get any system designer involved, the better.  Sometimes there may be options regarding the shape, dimensions, relationships and finishes of the spaces that affect the sound system, and the related budget, required to get the desired results and it makes sense to be able to factor those considerations into any related decisions made.  It can also potentially allow you to start addressing any related structural loads, space requirements, power requirements, ambient noise levels, and infrastructure when you can probably most effective and cost efficiently address them.

As far as fees, I agree that they can range all over and that there are a number of potential factors.  As Lee noted, there are typically several options on how services are billed, but there are also many options on the scope of services to be provided and most consultant and designers will tailor the services proposed to the needs of each project.

You also sometimes run into other considerations.  For example, if I am providing services through construction then knowing that a qualified Contractor will be used versus it potentially being whoever offers the lowest price or a price within your budget will affect me fees.  If I am working direct for the church or through an Architect, if I've worked with some of the other parties before and so on can also affect the fees.  That is why it is so difficult to offer a number without knowing some of the related details.

As far as how to select a Consultant or Designer, there are some professional associations such as InfoComm, NCAC, etc. that may offer member lists that let you search for Consultant members but membership in those groups by itself may not really tell you that much.  References from other churches can be useful, but I always caveat that with the point that many times you may be talking to people who were not directly involved and are passing down second or third hand information (or misinformation in some cases) or that were not part of the initial discussions and thus may not be pleased with the results.  Architects and especially AV Contractors can be good sources for references, especially if you have any particular firms already involved or in mind for your Project.  If you have specific product preferences then those manufacturers may be able to provide some recommendations.  However, what is often overlooked is the indefinable 'clicking' with someone and the comfort factor.  You may find people or firms that are very qualified but that just don't 'click' with you while others may immediately relate and be on the same page right from the start.  There is no way to quantify that in advance but it can be the difference between and good and bad experience for all involved.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on April 03, 2013, 12:08:02 PM
One reason for that is that in most cases the desired result is not specific equipment but rather certain functionality, capabilities and performance.  Your Pastor may not care what mixer and speakers are used but they may care greatly that what they say is clearly understood by everyone.  Your musicians may not care what monitor system is used but they may want it to function in a certain way.  The Building Committee may have input on aesthetic considerations.  And so on, in many cases a successful result is defined by what the system does and how well it works rather than by the equipment used and those are aspects you may be able to greatly define before involving outside help.

Absolutely. I don't have any specific equipment in mind, but I have a pretty clear idea of what we want/need.

A system that would meet our current needs would be a system that could clearly and accurately reinforce both spoken word and music and provide even coverage to an audience of about 200 people in a room that is (roughly) 40 feet deep 40 feet wide and capable of hitting 100dBA without distortion. Stereo is not necessary, but desirable if it is practical. I'm picturing a flown central mono cluster with subs either flown, under the stage, or both. Not sure if that'd be best or not though.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Lee Buckalew on April 04, 2013, 07:07:23 AM
Absolutely. I don't have any specific equipment in mind, but I have a pretty clear idea of what we want/need.

A system that would meet our current needs would be a system that could clearly and accurately reinforce both spoken word and music and provide even coverage to an audience of about 200 people in a room that is (roughly) 40 feet deep 40 feet wide and capable of hitting 100dBA without distortion. Stereo is not necessary, but desirable if it is practical. I'm picturing a flown central mono cluster with subs either flown, under the stage, or both. Not sure if that'd be best or not though.

You have a good general starting point but, your description can be met without meeting your expectation.  You need to define some measure able goals (what is "even" coverage in dB plus or minus, from what frequency to what frequency, 100dBA peak, average).  Without distortion is also open to interpretation.  I bring this up because here are companies that will provide the bare minimum and then turn it up to reach 100dBA on the Radio Shack meter and only the HF driver sections will accomplish that level.  The sound, at 100dBA would not be "pleasant" to most but it also wold not be distorted.

Lee
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on April 04, 2013, 11:31:12 AM
You have a good general starting point but, your description can be met without meeting your expectation.  You need to define some measure able goals (what is "even" coverage in dB plus or minus, from what frequency to what frequency, 100dBA peak, average).  Without distortion is also open to interpretation.  I bring this up because here are companies that will provide the bare minimum and then turn it up to reach 100dBA on the Radio Shack meter and only the HF driver sections will accomplish that level.  The sound, at 100dBA would not be "pleasant" to most but it also wold not be distorted.

Lee

What is reasonable to ask for regarding coverage in dB plus or minus?
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 04, 2013, 12:15:37 PM
What is reasonable to ask for regarding coverage in dB plus or minus?
+/- 3dB is a 'starting point.  Some people say higher or lower numbers.

But you have to define what that "means".  Does it mean across the freq band?  How wide is the freq band?

Or does it mean that you put some noise in the system and walk around with an SPL meter and it needs to fall within a 6dB range?  What about the freq response.  What if some seats the HF is 6dB high and at other the LF is 6dB high.  The net result would be the same on an SPL meter-but not to the ears.

And just because a "standard" is set-does not mean that it can actually be achieved.  MANY other factors affect that-far beyond equipment choices.

We redid a large install done by a competitor awhile back-because the coverage was so bad the church was getting several hundred WRITTEN complaints about the sound each week.

So the loudspeaker manufacturer came in and "proved" that the system was with +/-4dB (the spec).  HOW can that be-I have personally measured large areas in the audience that were 25dB down across an octave or more.  At the FOH position- you could easily hear 5 different "sounds" as you walked from one side of the console to the other.

I got  a copy of the "report".  Image a graph that has a dB scale on the vertical and seating positions along the bottom (something like 50 of them).  The graph shows SPL vs seating position-and yes it was within +-4dB.

HOWEVER the system was "tuned" so that 120Hz was about 18dB higher than anything else in the freq response.  And at 120Hz, the room WAS withing +/-4dB.  BUT NOT THE REST of the freq spectrum.

I assume this manufacturer did not want to make the local installer (who installs a lot of their products) look bad.

Even though it was evident that some of the cabinets were actually pointed up at the ceiling (away from the audience).

So the church hired us to redo the system-using the same components.  We did and the complaints stopped.\

Simple numbers end up the incorrect answers
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on April 04, 2013, 12:22:44 PM
+/- 3dB is a 'starting point.  Some people say higher or lower numbers.

But you have to define what that "means".  Does it mean across the freq band?  How wide is the freq band?

Or does it mean that you put some noise in the system and walk around with an SPL meter and it needs to fall within a 6dB range?  What about the freq response.  What if some seats the HF is 6dB high and at other the LF is 6dB high.  The net result would be the same on an SPL meter-but not to the ears.

And just because a "standard" is set-does not mean that it can actually be achieved.  MANY other factors affect that-far beyond equipment choices.

We redid a large install done by a competitor awhile back-because the coverage was so bad the church was getting several hundred WRITTEN complaints about the sound each week.

So the loudspeaker manufacturer came in and "proved" that the system was with +/-4dB (the spec).  HOW can that be-I have personally measured large areas in the audience that were 25dB down across an octave or more.  At the FOH position- you could easily hear 5 different "sounds" as you walked from one side of the console to the other.

I got  a copy of the "report".  Image a graph that has a dB scale on the vertical and seating positions along the bottom (something like 50 of them).  The graph shows SPL vs seating position-and yes it was within +-4dB.

HOWEVER the system was "tuned" so that 120Hz was about 18dB higher than anything else in the freq response.  And at 120Hz, the room WAS withing +/-4dB.  BUT NOT THE REST of the freq spectrum.

I assume this manufacturer did not want to make the local installer (who installs a lot of their products) look bad.

Even though it was evident that some of the cabinets were actually pointed up at the ceiling (away from the audience).

So the church hired us to redo the system-using the same components.  We did and the complaints stopped.\

Simple numbers end up the incorrect answers

Is it reasonable to ask for +/- 3dB to all (or at least 99%) of the congregation from 45Hz to 12KHz? Or is that more than most systems can do?
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Frank DeWitt on April 04, 2013, 12:29:25 PM
How about including a line something like  "The system must score .80 or higher on the standard STIPA test at every seat with a test sound source 5'5" above the floor and 12 in. horizontal behind the back edge of the pulpit."

I know just numbers alone don't do it, but would it help?
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Jason Lucas on April 08, 2013, 04:15:55 PM
Is it reasonable to ask for +/- 3dB to all (or at least 99%) of the congregation from 45Hz to 12KHz? Or is that more than most systems can do?

I don't know if thread "bumping" is discouraged around here but I would truly like to know the answer to this question if anyone has an answer.

Is the above quoted question reasonable to ask a system designer/installer for? If not, what would have to change?
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 09, 2013, 12:00:21 PM
How about including a line something like  "The system must score .80 or higher on the standard STIPA test at every seat with a test sound source 5'5" above the floor and 12 in. horizontal behind the back edge of the pulpit."

I know just numbers alone don't do it, but would it help?
If you do that-then almost all sound systems would fail.

Especially with a open mic that far away from the source.

And even if you did-that is just one measure of overall "quality".  It measures intelligibility-but says nothing about sound quality.  It could "sound" like garbage-and still get a high score. on the STIPA test.

Don't get me wrong-that is a good target to shoot for-and more systems should be actually measured for intelligibility.  At least it give a reference that is easily measured and not up for debate (at least not much anyway :))
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: Frank DeWitt on April 09, 2013, 01:14:50 PM
If you do that-then almost all sound systems would fail.

Especially with a open mic that far away from the source.

And even if you did-that is just one measure of overall "quality".  It measures intelligibility-but says nothing about sound quality.  It could "sound" like garbage-and still get a high score. on the STIPA test.

Don't get me wrong-that is a good target to shoot for-and more systems should be actually measured for intelligibility.  At least it give a reference that is easily measured and not up for debate (at least not much anyway :))

I agree that it should be only one specification, not THE specification.  It does seem important.  Let me lay out my thinking so I can learn .

1.  Churches exist to tell people about Christ.
2.  That implies that the people must be able to hear and understand.
3.  I fear that preachers are talking in churches thinking they are being heard when the people in the seats either can't hear, or can't understand, or are destructed by odd things like the sound coming from beside or behind them.

I have this vision of a pastor receiving a kit of instructions.  He sets up a boom box with a 3 to 4 in speaker in front of his podium and plays a supplied CD. He adjusts the podium mic, or puts his head worn mic in front of the boom box.  He then walks the room running the http://www.studiosixdigital.com/audiotools/stipa-basic.html
or something like it.
He checks the instructions for guides on what the numbers mean.

At this point he knows either
A  His flock can hear and understand him.
B  He needs help.  Call a professional.

He still doesn't know if his system sounds awful,  or if it is adequate for the worship team, or a lot of other things, but at least he has taken a first step towards being award that a big part of his ministry depends on a good sound system.

I have played with the app above and all the things that you would think should hurt the score do.  For example.  Increase the distance to the mic.  Open other mics, turn the volume down to mumble.  introduce other noise, point the PA speaker at walls or ceiling.
Title: Re: Main loud speaker options
Post by: roshansankar on September 16, 2013, 08:23:00 PM
I currently own four VRX932LA's, i plan to buy 2 more so i'll have 6 in total, but I need proper (affordable) amplification for them, what are your suggestions?is it better bi-amp for live applications?