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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => The Basement => Topic started by: Jon McElvain on April 29, 2014, 03:19:07 PM
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I've found that a small percentage of audiophiles are involved in Pro Audio in some way and I'm curious if there are any audiophiles here. If so what do you have for equipment?
I'm a budget audiophile (though "budget" is a meaningless word because it's all relative). Currently (and probably for a long time to come) my stereo rig includes a Pioneer Elite SACD player, Yaqin MC-30L integrated tube amplifier (China Manufactured), Focal Chorus 836v speakers, and Blue Jeans Cable interconnects and speaker cables.
I love the digital source in combination with the tube amplifier and was extremely impressed with the value of the tube amplifier. I've heard systems at the local hi fi shop worth 10x (or more) than what my system is worth and I'm still happy to listen at home.
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in 1993 i built a custom 3 - way speaker system. it had a Dynaudio 30w100 woofer , Eaton 7-380 mid , Accuton 28mm ceramic dome tweeter and custom crossovers built by the owner of a large speaker compnay whos name i said i would not tell.
the preamp Convergent Audio Signature preamp
modified QSC 3500 power amp
VPI HW 19 turntable with ET II arm
the 3-way speaker system i posted above has ben retired. i now use the 3-way system triamped system i built in the foto now. i built 4 of these stacks. 2 for home stereo and 2 for band rehersal. they have Ciare cones and a Radian compression drive , DDS horn.
i'm also a drummer, singer, bass guitar , rhythm guitar , keyboard and hot rod mechanic and electrician , etc
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I guess that depends on how you define audiophile.
I used to design consumer audio gear but left in disgust decades ago over the lack of reality in magazine reviews. In one case I had the exact same unit receive two wildly different reviews from two different magazines.
At least in live sound reinforcement you can't BS a stadium full of listeners. The physics of making lots of high SPl in large volume keeps it honest.
JR
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I guess that depends on how you define audiophile.
I used to design consumer audio gear but left in disgust decades ago over the lack of reality in magazine reviews. In one case I had the exact same unit receive two wildly different reviews from two different magazines.
At least in live sound reinforcement you can't BS a stadium full of listeners. The physics of making lots of high SPl in large volume keeps it honest.
JR
that because people like different sounds. guys that listen to violins usually dont like transsistor stuff. was always a transistor guy until i tried a CAT tube preamp. i always liked a transistor bass guitar amp until i heard a Hiwatt DR201. i use to read the Absolute and Stereophile years ago. a friend worked a several audiophile stores here in los angles. they had systems that would reproduce music in may different ways. i all come down to taste just like when musicians look for a certain drum or guitar sound.
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Audiofools are the reason we have the second amendment.
And Jeff, if you must insist on showing the fridge how about painting the produce storage cabinet and bread box standing beside it.
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And Jeff, if you must insist on showing the fridge how about painting the produce storage cabinet and bread box standing beside it.
what are you talking about man ! are you blind ? ! thats NOT a storage cabinet/breadbox ! thats the front loading washer and dryer stack with the horn on top that sounds when the clothes are done ! and just for you infomation thats the new "natural" wood finish for mica look.
looks like something from Dr. Seuss
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that because people like different sounds. guys that listen to violins usually dont like transsistor stuff. was always a transistor guy until i tried a CAT tube preamp. i always liked a transistor bass guitar amp until i heard a Hiwatt DR201. i use to read the Absolute and Stereophile years ago. a friend worked a several audiophile stores here in los angles. they had systems that would reproduce music in may different ways. i all come down to taste just like when musicians look for a certain drum or guitar sound.
Guys who listen to violins? Violins have overtones up to 12kHz and higher, but I'm not smart enough to guess what people think they hear.
Stereophile was the the magazine who gave my unit a good review but for even more irony, I didn't even submit it to them for review. I sent it to a friend up in Michigan to evaluate for more commercial professional applications, I had already given up on the phools. My friend was friends with Larry Greenhill so sent it to him without my knowledge and he liked it enough to write it up for Stereophile. Where was he when I was trying to sell to that market?
While I don't have any first hand experience I've heard rumors of TAS expecting some quid pro quo for good reviews. It explains some of the flip-flops I've seen where products rise and fall in popularity from issue to issue I knew the publisher of the Audio Critic, and didn't have much respect for any of their technical chops. Lots of looney toons in those magazines.
JR
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I have 2 Butler tubedriver amplifiers in my car. Its a hybrid design with tube pre-amps, transistor high power outputs. They are mounted to either side of a 7 foot path length folded horn subwoofer in the trunk. DSP is a JBL control MS-8. Also, some elliptical, 60db/octave passive crossovers to virtually eliminate comb filtering between tweets and mids. I think that counts as "audiophile" as the system is worth more than the car and I spend more time tuning it than I do drive it.
(http://i769.photobucket.com/albums/xx338/coronaoperator/Car/IMG_0580.jpg) (http://s769.photobucket.com/user/coronaoperator/media/Car/IMG_0580.jpg.html)
Link to full album of build http://s769.photobucket.com/user/coronaoperator/library/Car (http://s769.photobucket.com/user/coronaoperator/library/Car)
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and just for you infomation thats the new "natural" wood finish for mica look.
When I visited Peavey's UK factory many years ago, they were working on a version of the SP2 speaker with a second 15" speaker at 30 degrees from horizontal. I'm not sure if it became a product but we referred to it as the SP two and a half.
It was in bare wood and the person I was with asked if it was going to be vinyl or carpet covered. The Peavey engineer said he was going to try a creosote finish!
Steve.
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I suppose I'm a budget audiophile, too. I loved hanging out in hi-fi stores. I used to read the magazines. In the early '80s I started out with a Harmon Kardon receiver and pair of a/d/s L570 speakers. Ten years later I replaced the H/K for an Adcom amp & preamp, and added a Philips CD player, JBL 4410 speakers and a 15" Def-Tec sub. No changes for the past 20+ years until a couple of months ago when I picked up a pristine Dual TT. Actually, I boxed up my stereo eight years ago in anticipation of moving, but that never happened. Now I'm remodeling the house. I'll set it up one of these days.
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Also, some elliptical, 60db/octave passive crossovers to virtually eliminate comb filtering between tweets and mids. [/url]
I would imagine that a 60dB passive crossover would have some ringing issues-not to mention the tolerance needed to keep it all "lined up".
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guys that listen to violins usually dont like transsistor stuff.
I listen to violins... preferably in a good room with no mics, speakers, or electronics at all.
When that's not available I'm totally fine with transistors or even op-amps.
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I have 2 Butler tubedriver amplifiers in my car. Its a hybrid design with tube pre-amps, transistor high power outputs. They are mounted to either side of a 7 foot path length folded horn subwoofer in the trunk. DSP is a JBL control MS-8. Also, some elliptical, 60db/octave passive crossovers to virtually eliminate comb filtering between tweets and mids. I think that counts as "audiophile" as the system is worth more than the car and I spend more time tuning it than I do drive it.
Link to full album of build http://s769.photobucket.com/user/coronaoperator/library/Car (http://s769.photobucket.com/user/coronaoperator/library/Car)
I had a tube radio in my 1954 Ford...
(http://www.johnhroberts.com/burnout1.jpg)
JR
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I would imagine that a 60dB passive crossover would have some ringing issues-not to mention the tolerance needed to keep it all "lined up".
Not sure a passive filter would ring very much.
I recall an old tweaky speaker designer back in the 70s when small programable HP calculators were the tool of choice. he would run the calculations for some complex passive crossover over night because it would literally take hours for the calculator to crunch the equations. You want to make sure your battery is fully charged or your lose the result.
We take modern computer technology for granted. it wasn't always as easy as now.
JR
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When I visited Peavey's UK factory many years ago, they were working on a version of the SP2 speaker with a second 15" speaker at 30 degrees from horizontal. I'm not sure if it became a product but we referred to it as the SP two and a half.
It was in bare wood and the person I was with asked if it was going to be vinyl or carpet covered. The Peavey engineer said he was going to try a creosote finish!
Steve.
Was that Mike Lee? 8)....
Maybe call it a Peavey "Deuce and a half"...
JR
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I would imagine that a 60dB passive crossover would have some ringing issues-not to mention the tolerance needed to keep it all "lined up".
They are built by a company called CDT audio and described as "quasi-elliptical", being an audio-phoolery thread, I'll leave it up to your imagination what the term "quasi" means. In a car, the mids are in the kickpanels to minimize path differences to the ears between l/r drivers as our brain uses time delay for imaging at those frequencies, while the tweets are up in the dash near ear level with the closest tweet off axis as we use relative volume for imaging at higher frequencies. To finish off the imaging, band limited pink noise at iso centers is played and on a l/r 31 band EQ, one band is raised while the other lowerered in order to center that band in the center of the dash. Wash, rinse, repeat for all other bands. The illusion of a centered, eye level sound stage across the dash can be made quite real in a car using these techniques. I suspect there is some ringing, however there are bigger problems/resonances/reflections in a car to deal with. With the tweets being about 3 feet away from the mids, higher slope crossovers are usually sought after. One of the things that a car has going for it is that the listeners head is usually always in exactly the same spot +/- a few inches.
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Was that Mike Lee?
I don't remember his name... most likely, I never knew it. The guy I was with from our local music shop seemed to know everyone by name though. And he once visited Meridian at Hartley's invitation.
Maybe call it a Peavey "Deuce and a half"...
My first amplifier which wasn't home made was a Peavey Deuce. It was great apart from the phaser! And I'm sure nobody ever used the channel combine footswitch.
Steve.
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I have 2 Butler tubedriver amplifiers in my car. Its a hybrid design with tube pre-amps, transistor high power outputs. They are mounted to either side of a 7 foot path length folded horn subwoofer in the trunk. DSP is a JBL control MS-8. Also, some elliptical, 60db/octave passive crossovers to virtually eliminate comb filtering between tweets and mids. I think that counts as "audiophile" as the system is worth more than the car and I spend more time tuning it than I do drive it.
(http://i769.photobucket.com/albums/xx338/coronaoperator/Car/IMG_0580.jpg) (http://s769.photobucket.com/user/coronaoperator/media/Car/IMG_0580.jpg.html)
Link to full album of build http://s769.photobucket.com/user/coronaoperator/library/Car (http://s769.photobucket.com/user/coronaoperator/library/Car)
Interesting setup; way fancier than any of the car stereo stuff I've done. In my previous car('95 Nissan Sentra, see this thread (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=148730.0) for why it was my previous car) I had a single 12in sub in the trunk powered by a little "200 watt" amp, Sony rear speakers, stock front speakers, and an Alpine head unit. IMO is sounded pretty good for the very little money I had in it.
Now I'm driving a '06 Ford Focus hatchback and have put an Alpine head unit in it(very similar to the one I had in the Nissan) and a Sound Ordnance B-8PTD compact powered sub (http://www.crutchfield.com/p_777B8PTD/Sound-Ordnance-B-8PTD.html#details-tab)I'm very impressed with this sub. It fits under the drivers seat and is powered so I don't need a separate amp. It sounds pretty good; plenty of thump for kick and bass guitar though it doesn't go very low. I'd recommend it to anyone wanting some extra bass in a small car/truck without having a large cabinet taking up space. With the head unit I have acting as a crossover the factory speakers sound much better as they don't have to deal with a bunch of low frequencies. I'll grab a pic of the installed sub when I go to my car after work.
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I had CDTs in my vehicle when I competed at USACi world finals in '03. They were quite smooth and I really liked them. The specific set I had used 18 and 24 dB passives if I remember right.
I currently have Martin Logans in my basement listening room, and I would recommend to everyone to at least give them a listen.
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Butler Audio has some home audio products that I'd love a chance to hear.
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I had a tube radio in my 1954 Ford...
(http://www.johnhroberts.com/burnout1.jpg)
JR
Go, go. Go Johnny, go Johnny go.
When we were the kids ages we didn't need no stinkin fancy sound system. We had a tube powered AM radio, a bench seat, and some of the best music ever written. I'll bet 90% of these kids have never seen a submarine race either. What say ye' JR?
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Go, go. Go Johnny, go Johnny go.
When we were the kids ages we didn't need no stinkin fancy sound system. We had a tube powered AM radio, a bench seat, and some of the best music ever written. I'll bet 90% of these kids have never seen a submarine race either. What say ye' JR?
Can't say that I've ever seen a submarine at a submarine race but that's the point. Been to a few submarine races when the drive-in was closed. ;D ;D ;D Bench seats were good for something.
Back then the hot car audio system was to mount a spring reverb in the trunk. Later 8T tapes came along. It was fun to hear the reverb springs bottom out and make a racket when riding over rail road crossings or potholes.
JR
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Go, go. Go Johnny, go Johnny go.
When we were the kids ages we didn't need no stinkin fancy sound system. We had a tube powered AM radio, a bench seat, and some of the best music ever written. I'll bet 90% of these kids have never seen a submarine race either. What say ye' JR?
{spoiler - technical term usage}
...and how many 6V vibrators did you have you replace?
Mine was a '53.
-Wigs
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as much of an audiofile that i am and with the nice BIG wonderful sound system i have , 95% of ALL my music listening is done on this pair of things in the foto that cost me a whole $10.00 NEW 9 years ago !
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as much of an audiofile that i am and with the nice BIG wonderful sound system i have , 95% of ALL my music listening is done on this pair of things in the foto that cost me a whole $10.00 NEW 9 years ago !
If you really enjoy audio equipment and music but listen to you computer speakers often check out audioengine A2 speakers. Great sound. I have a pair at work and love them.
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{spoiler - technical term usage}
...and how many 6V vibrators did you have you replace?
Mine was a '53.
-Wigs
Not many, but I've adjust a bunch using a screw driver and Hickok meter.
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Can't say that I've ever seen a submarine at a submarine race...
Me neither, but my date usually had no trouble finding the periscope.
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Not many, but I've adjust a bunch using a screw driver and Hickok meter.
i need to find a good HighKock tube tester.
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I've found that a small percentage of audiophiles are involved in Pro Audio in some way and I'm curious if there are any audiophiles here. If so what do you have for equipment?
For many years I considered myself a "pragmatic" audiophile. I didn't waste money on oxygen-free unidirectional digital speaker cables, or waste time running green markers around the edge of my CDs, but my system included good stuff by Dynaco, Soundcraftsman, Onkyo, Accoustic Research and Thorens. When mp3 originally came out I was horrified that people would settle for such compressed sound, because I could definitely tell the difference. Fast-forward many years and several moves... my esoteric stuff is gathering dust in the man cave behind the house, not hooked up yet even though I moved here 2 years ago. Maybe it's because I'm too busy, or maybe because tinnitus has taken its toll on my ability to appreciate true hi-fi. Someday...
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For many years I considered myself a "pragmatic" audiophile. I didn't waste money on oxygen-free unidirectional digital speaker cables, or waste time running green markers around the edge of my CDs, but my system included good stuff by Dynaco, Soundcraftsman, Onkyo, Accoustic Research and Thorens. When mp3 originally came out I was horrified that people would settle for such compressed sound, because I could definitely tell the difference. Fast-forward many years and several moves... my esoteric stuff is gathering dust in the man cave behind the house, not hooked up yet even though I moved here 2 years ago. Maybe it's because I'm too busy, or maybe because tinnitus has taken its toll on my ability to appreciate true hi-fi. Someday...
Pragmatic Audiophile, I like that. My system is a hand me down from Audisar founder Bob Munger. His personal set of Audisar speakers, a Hitachi HMA-7500 (recapped by Bob) and a Rotel stereo preamp.
Clean, accurate sound at any volume is all I ask. This rig delivers in spades.
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{spoiler - technical term usage}
...and how many 6V vibrators did you have you replace?
Mine was a '53.
-Wigs
A few... the vibrator to chop DC and step it up was crude technology, but worked, mostly. The hip radios back then had auto-search function where you press the button and it scans up to the next loud station.
My 54 in that picture had been converted to 12V to be easier to start... Still wasn't that easy (thanks to full race isky cam). I ended up connecting the choke cable to my distributor so I could retard the timing just while cranking, then advance it again to make power at rpm.
JR
PS: 54 was the first year for overhead valve V8, 53 had flathead 8 and OHV inline 6. A friend of mine had 53 IL-6 and modified the intake manifold to mount 3x1 barrel carbs. Made a lot of noise, but didn't go much faster...:-(
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Pragmatic Audiophile, I like that. My system is a hand me down from Audisar founder Bob Munger. His personal set of Audisar speakers, a Hitachi HMA-7500 (recapped by Bob) and a Rotel stereo preamp.
Clean, accurate sound at any volume is all I ask. This rig delivers in spades.
Yours is indeed a nice sounding rig. And nice that you don't need no stinking sub either. Currently upgrading my own rig starting with a new Marantz receiver to replace a busted Sony.
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Yours is indeed a nice sounding rig. And nice that you don't need no stinking sub either. Currently upgrading my own rig starting with a new Marantz receiver to replace a busted Sony.
Stinking sub? Well, that is as much a function of living in an apartment as it is about the sound.
I always end up having to double check in the car to make sure that the kick sits in my mixes.
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If by audiophile you mean someone that has a hobby of high quality home audio systems then sure, I'm one of those. But I don't read the magazines or buy into the audiophoolery that that rich folk like. (Tho I had no problems selling it to them :) )
I usually attend the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest in Denver yearly just to be able to see what's new in person and visit with old friends. I can't afford to buy what I want so I will stick with the pioneer/paradigm/Hsu system I got for now.
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I'm no audiophool, but I like having nice music reproduction in my home.
Soundcraftsmen CX4000 preamp (recently rebuilt, new input ICs, all electrolytics replaced) and kit-assembled Hafler DH500 power (my first PA amp!). JBL 4408 speakers, Technics SL1700 tt with Ortofon FF15e (very much pre-DJ Ortofon).
My philosophy is to not pay for stuff I can't hear (even back when my hearing was really, really good I couldn't hear a price correlation to perceived sound quality once you got above the low 4-figures). The incremental "improvements" are very expensive and represent either rapidly diminishing returns or greasy serpent marketing.
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I'm no audiophool, but I like having nice music reproduction in my home.
Soundcraftsmen CX4000 preamp (recently rebuilt, new input ICs, all electrolytics replaced) and kit-assembled Hafler DH500 power (my first PA amp!). JBL 4408 speakers, Technics SL1700 tt with Ortofon FF15e (very much pre-DJ Ortofon).
My philosophy is to not pay for stuff I can't hear (even back when my hearing was really, really good I couldn't hear a price correlation to perceived sound quality once you got above the low 4-figures). The incremental "improvements" are very expensive and represent either rapidly diminishing returns or greasy serpent marketing.
Those JBL 4000 series were very very nice, but built to suck up your whole B+ rail and then some! Glad you're giving them the juice they need! The 4412 sticks in my head as one of my favorite listening experiences.
I had a buddy who at one point owned a pair of 4412s and a pair of 4355. The 4412 barely got by on a pair of 250W randalls. The 4355 had a rack in the basement with 2kW AE techron monoblocks.
That's some audiophoolery I can get behind. DC to light at 120dBC.
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Those JBL 4000 series were very very nice, but built to suck up your whole B+ rail and then some! Glad you're giving them the juice they need! The 4412 sticks in my head as one of my favorite listening experiences.
I had a buddy who at one point owned a pair of 4412s and a pair of 4355. The 4412 barely got by on a pair of 250W randalls. The 4355 had a rack in the basement with 2kW AE techron monoblocks.
That's some audiophoolery I can get behind. DC to light at 120dBC.
I first heard the 4400 series speakers in 1990 while on a 3-day layover in Japan. I had heard many of the high-end products around that time, but these fairly simple designed rectangular boxes did impress at their price point. When I returned to S. Korea a month later the base exchange had mistakenly ordered a pair of the 4410s. They weren't "authorized" to sell these in country, so they marked them down 50% to sell quickly. I love them.
By the way, I power them with an Adcom 555 II (200 wpc) with zero issues.
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I couldn't decide weather to leave this thread alone or not but it seems to be going my way. I love large format studio monitors. I have 4435's in my office driven with a Crown K2 and 4430's on my tech bench on a K2.
My favorite though is a pair of 4350's at home that are seriously hot-rodded with JBL 1501Al-1's on the bottom and JBL 1200Fe's for midbass drivers, Be diaphragms in the 2440's, four way active via DBX4800, three K2's, a K1 and a D45 on the slots.
If audiophile could be defined as one who spends a dissproportional percentage of his income chasing good sound, then, I are one I s'pose.
Barry.
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Well I frequently listen to stuff recorded in the 1920's and 1930's for entertainment and I do have studio monitors in use as computer speakers, but it seems to me the typical "audiophile" says they want great sound when what they really want is sound that is colored to be palatable. It seems to be that the more expensive home systems I have heard make most recordings start to sound the same.
This is like someone claiming to be a gourmand when what they really want is diner food covered in white gravy.
Is the purpose of a high end system to reproduce the flaws as they are recorded or like white gravy cover the flaws up so they are less noticeable?
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Well I frequently listen to stuff recorded in the 1920's and 1930's for entertainment and I do have studio monitors in use as computer speakers, but it seems to me the typical "audiophile" says they want great sound when what they really want is sound that is colored to be palatable. It seems to be that the more expensive home systems I have heard make most recordings start to sound the same.
This is like someone claiming to be a gourmand when what they really want is diner food covered in white gravy.
Is the purpose of a high end system to reproduce the flaws as they are recorded or like white gravy cover the flaws up so they are less noticeable?
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I like that analogy-and it carries over into the world of pro audio.
People talk about wanting a system that is accurate-but yet they want a system to "cover up" the bad stuff.
So that means it is NOT accurate.
Garbage in garbage out.
Poorly recorded or performed audio will sound bad through a truly accurate system-BUT well recorded or performed audio will sound GREAT through an accurate system
Less than accurate systems all start to sound the "same".
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I like that analogy-and it carries over into the world of pro audio.
People talk about wanting a system that is accurate-but yet they want a system to "cover up" the bad stuff.
So that means it is NOT accurate.
Garbage in garbage out.
Poorly recorded or performed audio will sound bad through a truly accurate system-BUT well recorded or performed audio will sound GREAT through an accurate system
Less than accurate systems all start to sound the "same".
I just wanted to talk about white gravy...
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IMO we need to make an important distinction between "sound reinforcement" and "home playback" systems. There are objective metrics that can effectively characterize how well a reinforcement rig "reinforces" sound in a given performance space. OTOH, typical playback in a car or living space is often compromised by the space when we attempt to create an illusion of sound recorded in a different space, and with more than two discrete sound sources.
Stereo has delivered an improved illusion of complex sound spaces, but that illusion is not a linear process. In some cases added distortion improves the illusion while objectively degrading measured accuracy.
IMO it is not apples and apples, so be careful about drawing strong parallels.
JR
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IMO we need to make an important distinction between "sound reinforcement" and "home playback" systems. There are objective metrics that can effectively characterize how well a reinforcement rig "reinforces" sound in a given performance space. OTOH, typical playback in a car or living space is often compromised by the space when we attempt to create an illusion of sound recorded in a different space, and with more than two discrete sound sources.
Stereo has delivered an improved illusion of complex sound spaces, but that illusion is not a linear process. In some cases added distortion improves the illusion while objectively degrading measured accuracy.
IMO it is not apples and apples, so be careful about drawing strong parallels.
JR
Okay, but what can we do will all the white gravy that Jay has spilled everywhere? ;)
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Mmmmmm...gravy
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Mmmmmm...gravy
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Dang, now I want a chicken fried steak.
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I just wanted to talk about white gravy...
No gravy here, only ferrofluid. Don't know if it's analog, digital or "digital-ready" (to use audiophile magazine ad-speak).
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a freind that worked at a few audiophile stores in la said guys that liked classical music wanted a system that reproduced the sound the way they would here it at places like the Hollywood bowl , etc. he said they wanted to be able close their eyes and immagine they were at a live concert. they didnt want to hear every detail because that wasnt what they would hear at a live concert and it ruined the affect. one reason i started using pa speakers for my home system is i wanted to hear live recordings the way i would hear them at a rock concert with a good pa. my other home speaker system will reproduce stuff you are not suppose to hear but the sound is different from pa speakers(gee i wonder why :O !). i have come across a lot of rock concerts that were recorded from the record out jacks on the board and the sound quailty is awsome. so now i can sit back and close my eyes(unless its a video) and it sounds like i'm at the concert. i am using QSC series 3 amps made in 1982 & up so i got about 2/3 of a real pa in my system. if i want to hear every little detail including drums sticks hitting together or a cough in the background that i'm not suppose to hear i will use my other speakers and not my pa speakers.
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Audiophile? I can't afford the $4,000 for a pair of 25' cables..
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Someone is going to have to tell me what white gravy is. Is it an American thing? I have never heard of it over here.
(Yes, I could look it up on Google but I'm not going to!).
Steve.
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White Gravy is an excellent band name!
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White Gravy is an excellent band name!
I could just see some politically correct organization getting their panties up in a bunch about it, though, calling it racist.
The times we live in...!
-Ray "never makes gravy" Aberle
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I could just see some politically correct organization getting their panties up in a bunch about it, though, calling it racist.
The times we live in...!
-Ray "never makes gravy" Aberle
i can think of an equally provocative yet non-racist application of "white gravy"
In my parts, the color brown has its own potential for raised eyebrows. There is a whitish sauce, hollandaise, but im not sure if that is what jay is drooling over. There is also a brown sauce, which is beef-based, but enough people use an instant powder and have no idea what is in it.
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a freind that worked at a few audiophile stores in la said guys that liked classical music wanted a system that reproduced the sound the way they would here it at places like the Hollywood bowl , etc. he said they wanted to be able close their eyes and immagine they were at a live concert. they didnt want to hear every detail because that wasnt what they would hear at a live concert and it ruined the affect. one reason i started using pa speakers for my home system is i wanted to hear live recordings the way i would hear them at a rock concert with a good pa. my other home speaker system will reproduce stuff you are not suppose to hear but the sound is different from pa speakers(gee i wonder why :O !). i have come across a lot of rock concerts that were recorded from the record out jacks on the board and the sound quailty is awsome. so now i can sit back and close my eyes(unless its a video) and it sounds like i'm at the concert. i am using QSC series 3 amps made in 1982 & up so i got about 2/3 of a real pa in my system. if i want to hear every little detail including drums sticks hitting together or a cough in the background that i'm not suppose to hear i will use my other speakers and not my pa speakers.
That sounds a little like the Bose 89% reflected/direct sound ratio Kool-aid.
I haven't appreciated my home hifi as much since having live bands in my living room... 8)
JR
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i can think of an equally provocative yet non-racist application of "white gravy"
In my parts, the color brown has its own potential for raised eyebrows. There is a whitish sauce, hollandaise, but im not sure if that is what jay is drooling over. There is also a brown sauce, which is beef-based, but enough people use an instant powder and have no idea what is in it.
For those of you outside the south and west parts of the US, white gravy is basically a seasoned béchamel (flour, milk, butter) that you can find find slathered over lower grades of fried meat, canned vegetables, and potatoes that come from a box in dinners featuring "country cookin'". A good white gravy can conceal a multitude of over culinary sins.
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For those of you outside the south and west parts of the US, white gravy is basically a seasoned béchamel (flour, milk, butter) that you can find find slathered over lower grades of fried meat, canned vegetables, and potatoes that come from a box in dinners featuring "country cookin'". A good white gravy can conceal a multitude of over culinary sins.
usually put on chicken fried steak. i am a south missippi boy.
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Got it all cheap back when I was in the hi-fi import business:
Linn LP12/Cirkus/Trampolinn/Lingo/Akito/K18 'Record Player'.
Linn Kremlin Tuner
Linn Karik CD Transport
Linn Numerik D-A Converter
Linn Kairn Preamp
Linn Aktiv Crossover (currently out of the system)
Linn Klout Poweramp x3
Linn Kaber Loudspeakers (currently with passive XOs)
Linn cables
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Got it all cheap back when I was in the hi-fi import business:
Linn LP12/Cirkus/Trampolinn/Lingo/Akito/K18 'Record Player'.
Linn Kremlin Tuner
Linn Karik CD Transport
Linn Numerik D-A Converter
Linn Kairn Preamp
Linn Aktiv Crossover (currently out of the system)
Linn Klout Poweramp x3
Linn Kaber Loudspeakers (currently with passive XOs)
Linn cables
how come your name isnt Linn ?
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IMO we need to make an important distinction between "sound reinforcement" and "home playback" systems. There are objective metrics that can effectively characterize how well a reinforcement rig "reinforces" sound in a given performance space. OTOH, typical playback in a car or living space is often compromised by the space when we attempt to create an illusion of sound recorded in a different space, and with more than two discrete sound sources.
Stereo has delivered an improved illusion of complex sound spaces, but that illusion is not a linear process. In some cases added distortion improves the illusion while objectively degrading measured accuracy.
IMO it is not apples and apples, so be careful about drawing strong parallels.
JR
There are very few commercial recordings that are not colored in some way or another; over 99% of audio played back on home theater / audiophile systems is commercial recording. When an audiophile demands a highly accurate playback system, they are accurately replaying whatever coloring has been introduced -- intentionally -- during recording. You can bet that over 99% of commercial recordings have not been made with highly precise coloring. Therefore, the audiophile is getting a highly accurate reproduction of something that is not accurate to begin with.
Likewise, no live performance is uncolored. If we wanted uncolored live performances, we wouldn't have effects processors, equalizers, mixers, and the like; all microphones and loudspeakers would have identical characteristics, all auditoriums would be equipped with a Bogen integrated PA amplifier, all lead singers would be on-key, all guitarists would be happy with their monitor mix, and all drummers would be able to play softly.
Recording engineers may be artists, and audiophiles may want to accurately reproduce the coloration that the engineer has introduced. But the audiophiles fool themselves, because few recording engineers are as concerned with accuracy as audiophiles are (they have deadlines and budgets to meet) so allow a certain amount of undesirable coloration in the product.
To the audiophile, you are wasting your money in pursuit of a level of perfection sabotaged by the constraints of real-world recording processes. It's an unachievable goal.
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There are very few commercial recordings that are not colored in some way or another; over 99% of audio played back on home theater / audiophile systems is commercial recording. When an audiophile demands a highly accurate playback system, they are accurately replaying whatever coloring has been introduced -- intentionally -- during recording. You can bet that over 99% of commercial recordings have not been made with highly precise coloring. Therefore, the audiophile is getting a highly accurate reproduction of something that is not accurate to begin with.
My dad was a recording engineer for RCA back in the 50's and they were still trying to make it as linear as they could... Back then they didn't have to add tube distortion. 8) 8)
Likewise, no live performance is uncolored. If we wanted uncolored live performances, we wouldn't have effects processors, equalizers, mixers, and the like; all microphones and loudspeakers would have identical characteristics, all auditoriums would be equipped with a Bogen integrated PA amplifier, all lead singers would be on-key, all guitarists would be happy with their monitor mix, and all drummers would be able to play softly.
Recording engineers may be artists, and audiophiles may want to accurately reproduce the coloration that the engineer has introduced. But the audiophiles fool themselves, because few recording engineers are as concerned with accuracy as audiophiles are (they have deadlines and budgets to meet) so allow a certain amount of undesirable coloration in the product.
Audiophools are on a quasi-religious quest to find some non-existant holy grail of perfect reproduction. It's all a fools chase founded on magical thinking.
To the audiophile, you are wasting your money in pursuit of a level of perfection sabotaged by the constraints of real-world recording processes. It's an unachievable goal.
For many it is all about the gear not the music. I have known a few who were seriously about the music (like Rudy Bozak RIP), but they were few and far between.
JR
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My dad was a recording engineer for RCA back in the 50's and they were still trying to make it as linear as they could... Back then they didn't have to add tube distortion. 8) 8)Audiophools are on a quasi-religious quest to find some non-existant holy grail of perfect reproduction. It's all a fools chase founded on magical thinking.
For many it is all about the gear not the music. I have known a few who were seriously about the music (like Rudy Bozak RIP), but they were few and far between.
JR
Right on. I used to be into the logical pursuit of good home audio and managed a shop for my friend. Some old guys told me they could not hear any of the stuff I could. They bought what was in the magazines because their friends did, and when their friends came over, it gave them something to talk about. Another old guy told me his wife had fake boobs, clothes, a crap ton of shoes, etc. The audiophile stuff was his fake boobs and shoes.
When the economy tanked in 2009, just about all the local audiophile shops closed up. The current batch of fans are into moderate priced stuff. The problem remains the same. They never leave good enough alone, they do not know what the music should sound like, and they are trying to go about things backasswards.
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well to all of you who talk about colored recordings and how audiophiles are listening to colored recordings and some are bout the music and lots are about the gear. well i'm all about having the most accurate coloration and thats WHY i build my own super accurate front load washer and dryer. when i wash and dry my colored clothes i want them done as accurate as possible so they are the same color when they come out as they went in. and this baby in the foto has one hell of a spin cycle. behold my washer and dryer.