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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Rich Green on August 28, 2014, 05:24:46 AM

Title: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Rich Green on August 28, 2014, 05:24:46 AM
Hi there, I saw the word 'newbie' in this forum description so that's why I'm posting here.

Hopefully there's some F1 pros on board who can help me with my questions. I'm in New Zealand so there's nowhere local I can go to check out F1 systems (althought I heard them overseas and was happy with the sound) and I want to make the right decisions right from the start because incorrect purchases will be quite dire.

I have my mind set on building a couple of the dance stacks. Myself and others feel that your typical Res 2/4 + 218/221 build lacks a bit of punch in the lower mid and the dedicated 15" speakers I've read are suitable for plugging this gap. Since they'll be for rental and not installation, ease of movement is more of a priority than it otherwise would be. Because of that I'm currently ruling out the F221.

I will literally be building it as I go because although I can save relatively fast, I have not much capital to start with. For this reason I am contemplating getting some resolution cabs to start with, then bass, then mids and highs. At least that way I will have stuff I can play with initially as it seems if I bought the parts of the dance stacks over time, it wouldn't start to sound good to play on until I had all 3-4 sections. I guess listing the questions might make things easier so here goes:

1. First off I guess I should ask if this sounds like a solid plan

2. As I am intending to get the resolution cabs first, I guess I am deciding between the res2 and res4 options. The main difference between the two of them I can tell is that one has a 15" and the other is 12"  (the 8 and 1 are the same). Is the Res 2 a better option to use at first with F218 and then Infrabass and then when I get the top sections of the dance stack, they can be used as monitors or for frontal dispersion?

3. I have been told and read that the F215 is a better option than DS15 for non-installs because the DS15 doesn't travel well or something to this effect. Is this a common selection now for this purpose? The operating bands for the F215 are a lot lower than the DS15 so it's a really different speaker and I've seen one of the dance stack options includes both. Is that perhaps the best final configuration?  (DS10 / DS 15 / F 215 / F218 x 2 / Infrabass).

Hopefully this thread gets a few replies and I can get some great advice :)

Thanks in advance!

Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Josh Billings on August 28, 2014, 06:02:57 AM
I think you should probably be on speakerplans.com they will be a lot more helpful here than anybody here will be.
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Rich Green on August 28, 2014, 06:42:18 AM
Haha, probably not the most ideal first reply. I can't see it being that bad here as I've seen other posts on it which were discussed in a suitable way.

I think you should probably be on speakerplans.com they will be a lot more helpful here than anybody here will be.
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Jay Barracato on August 28, 2014, 07:01:53 AM
I am not sure if by "build" you mean assemble a system of function one cabinets or by " build" you mean cut plywood and install drivers.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on August 28, 2014, 08:05:51 AM
Love your show.  Say hi to Harold!

What?

Oh....

Never mind.
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Milt Hathaway on August 28, 2014, 10:03:37 AM
Haha, probably not the most ideal first reply. I can't see it being that bad here as I've seen other posts on it which were discussed in a suitable way.

You're not gonna like this reply either.
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on August 28, 2014, 10:16:57 AM
In a nutshell, I think it's a bad idea to build a "SYSTEM" on the box-a-month plan.  You spend a lot of time with no income (and no ability to grow the rig) and get a reputation for having Not Enough Rig for the GigŪ regardless of how nice it is or the pedigree that comes with the brand.

I take it you're putting together a portable dance music system.  We're primarily live audio here, but we have a smattering of EDM providers so they might have more/better comments, but on the whole our type doesn't obsess over "kick bins" or worry that the -3dB dip at 150Hz will somehow cause sterility or collapse of civilisation as we know it. ;)

Have funk, good lucks.

Tim Mc
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 28, 2014, 12:29:42 PM
In a nutshell, I think it's a bad idea to build a "SYSTEM" on the box-a-month plan.  You spend a lot of time with no income (and no ability to grow the rig) and get a reputation for having Not Enough Rig for the GigŪ regardless of how nice it is or the pedigree that comes with the brand.

I take it you're putting together a portable dance music system.  We're primarily live audio here, but we have a smattering of EDM providers so they might have more/better comments, but on the whole our type doesn't obsess over "kick bins" or worry that the -3dB dip at 150Hz will somehow cause sterility or collapse of civilisation as we know it. ;)

Have funk, good lucks.

Tim Mc
Part of the problem is that many people in the EDM world (and others for that matter) often talk about how they want accurate reproduction-but yet if you were to measure a system that they thought was "good" it is often FAR from being accurate.

They get "hung up" on either areas in the freq response that they have lost their hearing or that make them feel "physically good".

If the artist had intended to have an excessive level at a particular freq, then they would have put it in the mix TO BEGIN WITH.  NOT expecting the system to "add what the artist could not".

You cannot be accurate and colored at the same time.  But that is hard to tell live guys also--------

But back to the original question, it is hard to build a "system" by just getting one part of it and expecting it to be able to reproduce the full response and then later just reproduce part of it.

At either the beginning or the end of the "quest" something is going to be lacking.

It is like building a car and when it comes to tires-the tires and the wheels have to match.  But one without the other will not work-at least well.

Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Art Welter on August 28, 2014, 04:26:30 PM
1. First off I guess I should ask if this sounds like a solid plan
2. As I am intending to get the resolution cabs first, I guess I am deciding between the res2 and res4 options. The main difference between the two of them I can tell is that one has a 15" and the other is 12"  (the 8 and 1 are the same). Is the Res 2 a better option to use at first with F218 and then Infrabass and then when I get the top sections of the dance stack, they can be used as monitors or for frontal dispersion?
3. I have been told and read that the F215 is a better option than DS15 for non-installs because the DS15 doesn't travel well or something to this effect. Is this a common selection now for this purpose? The operating bands for the F215 are a lot lower than the DS15 so it's a really different speaker and I've seen one of the dance stack options includes both. Is that perhaps the best final configuration?  (DS10 / DS 15 / F 215 / F218 x 2 / Infrabass).
Rich,

1) Individual sub, mid, hi-mid, high  enclosures have not been a "solid plan" as far as general market acceptability or resale since the late 1970's. I replaced my four box 1979 horn system (took 9 months of design and build  :'() for a two box, four way horn loaded system in 1981. The last time I tried to sell separate enclosures I got zero response. That said,  it seems everything old is new again, and separates are again popular in the dance market. If you have determined there is a market that will pay for them, and the extra work involved, go for it.
2) In addition to what you pointed out, the Res 4 is three way, adding expense and complexity over the two way semi-full range Res 2. For building "one piece at a time" (great Johnny Cash song) the Res 2 seems more flexible, and could be used as a stand alone rental.
3) Chopping up bandwidth using separate cabinets covering little more than an octave is one approach to get the job done, not necessarily the "best final solution".  As a "one piece at a time" building plan, using multiple subs each capable of operation from around 30-100+ Hz makes more sense than purchasing just one portion of that spectrum at a time.

Art (not quite as old as Tony Andrews) Welter
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Rich Green on August 28, 2014, 09:37:02 PM
Thanks Tim and Art for your well-thought out replies.

I think that means I'll go with the res2 to start with. I do have my mind set on the end goal and now living mortgage-free, and with almost enough capital to start with the res cabs, 1 pair of F218 and appropriate amps + speaker management, I hope to be able to complete 2 dance stacks + monitors in about 2 years. I realise hiring it out and employing staff will be a bit of work but to be honest, this will be like an expensive hobby for me. I'm not going to go out buying $100k cars as I'm not that interested in them so this is what I've chosen to keen me happy and not turn into a boring old 9-5 dinner tv sleep repeat man until I'm ready to retire.

Back on topic.. I do realise that it won't sound complete until it is complete and also I will do my best to keep it under wraps until it is as well although I'm sure what I could buy with said capital should make a decent enough sound for me to be happy initially :)

Can I get an opinion on whether this order of purchase sounds like the best idea to have the most options to have a balanced sound during the time that I am adding items?

1. Res 2
2. F218
3. Infrabass
4. F215
5. DS10 /  Res 3 EH Evo x 2
6. F218

Then possibly DS15 depending on if I think there is enough control over the upper mid.

Here are the 3 most common Dance Stack options from the F1 website:

http://www.funktion-one.com/img/tech-drawings/DS_tech.png

I guess it's halfway in between the first and second ones.

Thanks again!


Rich,

1) Individual sub, mid, hi-mid, high  enclosures have not been a "solid plan" as far as general market acceptability or resale since the late 1970's. I replaced my four box 1979 horn system (took 9 months of design and build  :'() for a two box, four way horn loaded system in 1981. The last time I tried to sell separate enclosures I got zero response. That said,  it seems everything old is new again, and separates are again popular in the dance market. If you have determined there is a market that will pay for them, and the extra work involved, go for it.
2) In addition to what you pointed out, the Res 4 is three way, adding expense and complexity over the two way semi-full range Res 2. For building "one piece at a time" (great Johnny Cash song) the Res 2 seems more flexible, and could be used as a stand alone rental.
3) Chopping up bandwidth using separate cabinets covering little more than an octave is one approach to get the job done, not necessarily the "best final solution".  As a "one piece at a time" building plan, using multiple subs each capable of operation from around 30-100+ Hz makes more sense than purchasing just one portion of that spectrum at a time.

Art (not quite as old as Tony Andrews) Welter
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Randy Pence on August 29, 2014, 07:14:48 AM
Thanks Tim and Art for your well-thought out replies.

I think that means I'll go with the res2 to start with. I do have my mind set on the end goal and now living mortgage-free, and with almost enough capital to start with the res cabs, 1 pair of F218 and appropriate amps + speaker management, I hope to be able to complete 2 dance stacks + monitors in about 2 years. I realise hiring it out and employing staff will be a bit of work but to be honest, this will be like an expensive hobby for me. I'm not going to go out buying $100k cars as I'm not that interested in them so this is what I've chosen to keen me happy and not turn into a boring old 9-5 dinner tv sleep repeat man until I'm ready to retire.

Back on topic.. I do realise that it won't sound complete until it is complete and also I will do my best to keep it under wraps until it is as well although I'm sure what I could buy with said capital should make a decent enough sound for me to be happy initially :)

Can I get an opinion on whether this order of purchase sounds like the best idea to have the most options to have a balanced sound during the time that I am adding items?

1. Res 2
2. F218
3. Infrabass
4. F215
5. DS10 /  Res 3 EH Evo x 2
6. F218

Then possibly DS15 depending on if I think there is enough control over the upper mid.

Here are the 3 most common Dance Stack options from the F1 website:

http://www.funktion-one.com/img/tech-drawings/DS_tech.png

I guess it's halfway in between the first and second ones.

Thanks again!

Does it have to be funktion one?

Given what you want to do, I'd think about 4 danley dbh218 subs and 2 sh96ho tops to round out a couple stacks
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on August 29, 2014, 07:49:41 AM
Does it have to be funktion one?

Given what you want to do, I'd think about 4 danley dbh218 subs and 2 sh96ho tops to round out a couple stacks

I'm assuming that "presentation" is a big part of the equation here.  Of course, you could get better stuff and use a pile of dummy cabinets to make it look cool...

Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Guy Graham on August 29, 2014, 08:04:47 AM
I'm assuming that "presentation" is a big part of the equation here.  Of course, you could get better stuff and use a pile of dummy cabinets to make it look cool...

I'm sure part of the reason Funktion One have become so popular on what you Americans call the EDM scene, is their distinctive appearance that makes virtually any combination of F1 boxes which form a full spectrum system instantly recognizable.

The bold colours and styling are probably more significant than any special sonic properties, to have got this brand to the point where promoters of dance events are pleased to be able advertise F1 sound at their events on flyers, websites etc.

I don't know how common this is in the USA, but here punters seem to respond very positively to the Function One brand. It seems to form a kind of quasi quality assurance mark for sound quality, and I think the brand's up their with Technics and Pioneer in terms of acceptance and recognition by a significant proportion of fans of most kinds of dance music.

Hence I agree with Dick that the OP has chosen this brand for more than its sound quality. I suspect a smaller and less physically imposing Danley rig of equal or greater capability, would not satisfy the OP's objective.

Sent from my GT-I8160 using Tapatalk 2
 
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Randy Pence on August 29, 2014, 08:24:01 AM
I'm assuming that "presentation" is a big part of the equation here.  Of course, you could get better stuff and use a pile of dummy cabinets to make it look cool...

With a bit of orange paint, danley cabs have been making their presence in the electronic music scene heard and felt.  The punters like the horn look more than they like a pile of boxes.
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on August 29, 2014, 08:27:09 AM
With a bit of orange paint, danley cabs have been making their presence in the electronic music scene heard and felt.  The punters like the horn look more than they like a pile of boxes.

Yet it seems the OP prefers the large physical display and is enamored with complexity...not what I would call a solid business plan.
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Guy Graham on August 29, 2014, 08:40:25 AM
With a bit of orange paint, danley cabs have been making their presence in the electronic music scene heard and felt.  The punters like the horn look more than they like a pile of boxes.

As fashions do change, I could imagine that with some clever marketing Danley could make F1 kit passe on the UK scene.

I can imagine buzzwords like "synergy", "coherence" and "efficiency" whispered by converts educating the die-hard Funktion One folk, and another mixture of myth, marketing and fact would become common parlance on that scene.

Discovering something better than F1 may gain traction and perhaps even widespread acceptance. In my experience the dance music scene loves finding stuff with that elusive "exclusive" cool factor - and will happily turn facts into pseudo science via the Chinese whispers used to exchange information!

Sent from my GT-I8160 using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Rich Green on August 29, 2014, 08:48:04 AM
As another guy said, F1 perhaps does have impressive marketing but it still performs well. Relate this in car terms and I'm sure you can think of loads of brands of cars that do the job well that have an inflated price tag to incorporate the cost of this marketing.

I don't particularly think there's anything wrong with that and it can be found in many different fields.

Yes, part of my reasoning to go with F1 is due to the fact it's imposing, looks good and is much more likely to get me rental because of that and the 'mystique' that surrounds it. I plan to use it myself when I put on events but at the same time, getting a bit of cash from rental is not something I am going to just ignore. The other part is that I've heard it before and liked what I heard apart from said missing punch. From what I can tell this can be remedied.

I'm not really sure why you think my plan is complex. Basically I'm saying I can't afford to buy 2 dance stacks plus amps, speaker management outright and it will take me time to build up to the point where I can rent it. In the meantime I don't think having 2 subs in my garage that I can't use is a great idea and I would like to be able to at least have parts of what my eventual goal is ticked off while still being able to have some quality sound.

You can't, as far as I know, have quality sound from just DS10  or just F218. I am no expert but I don't think anyone would disagree with me on that.

Because of that, I am asking for the best way to incorporate the resolution speakers initially so I have some nice gear at home that I can play around with and learn more about. Later they will be put to another use but for the meantime my questions were pretty simple;  Res 2 or res 4   and some qustions about the mid range options.

I would hate to think that every person who comes onto this forum with a similar type question is always told they're enamoured with the look only and they should buy another brand which is better. What is best I'm sure is objective in the same way as one guy will rate a lexus and another an audi.

Thanks to the first two guys who gave me solid replies and thanks in advance to anyone willing to further the discussion without going too far off topic. I will definitely take a look into danley products but as you say.. chinese whispers and pseudo science are most likely to bring about their downfall in the future too if that's how it works whenever someone starts to like a particular brand.

Yet it seems the OP prefers the large physical display and is enamored with complexity...not what I would call a solid business plan.
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Randy Pence on August 29, 2014, 09:02:15 AM
I'm sure part of the reason Funktion One have become so popular on what you Americans call the EDM scene, is their distinctive appearance that makes virtually any combination of F1 boxes which form a full spectrum system instantly recognizable.

The bold colours and styling are probably more significant than any special sonic properties, to have got this brand to the point where promoters of dance events are pleased to be able advertise F1 sound at their events on flyers, websites etc.

I don't know how common this is in the USA, but here punters seem to respond very positively to the Function One brand. It seems to form a kind of quasi quality assurance mark for sound quality, and I think the brand's up their with Technics and Pioneer in terms of acceptance and recognition by a significant proportion of fans of most kinds of dance music.

Hence I agree with Dick that the OP has chosen this brand for more than its sound quality. I suspect a smaller and less physically imposing Danley rig of equal or greater capability, would not satisfy the OP's objective.

Sent from my GT-I8160 using Tapatalk 2

Whether the UK, the US, or in Berlin (one of the largest party scenes in the world), I imagine the punter thinking is the same - Get loud, sound smooth (low distortion), and look the part (show off horns!).

F1 established itself as it is one of the few manufacturers which completed the criteria.  They are not the only ones, but given how many tms, flash, and floodlight boxes serviced the rave scenes of hte world, there was already a history of Tony Andrews bringing life to 909 and 808 kick drums.

In my market, I've noticed that l'acoustics, nexo, or D&B boxes will just as well be used if the event is a bit more mainstream, but the underground market (meaning less corporate, more promoter than agency based- and it is a very healthy segment) gravitates towards F1. Void could just as well have gotten the same support if their speakers had been in the right clubs.

What danley has going for it is hte nasa background.  As I've tried to research the current impact danley speakers have had on electronic dance music events, it keeps popping up.  Given how much I heard about Turbosound and Pink Floyd, this kind of association will probably help perk up some ears before experiencing the real thing.
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Randy Pence on August 29, 2014, 09:04:37 AM
As fashions do change, I could imagine that with some clever marketing Danley could make F1 kit passe on the UK scene.

I can imagine buzzwords like "synergy", "coherence" and "efficiency" whispered by converts educating the die-hard Funktion One folk, and another mixture of myth, marketing and fact would become common parlance on that scene.

Discovering something better than F1 may gain traction and perhaps even widespread acceptance. In my experience the dance music scene loves finding stuff with that elusive "exclusive" cool factor - and will happily turn facts into pseudo science via the Chinese whispers used to exchange information!

Sent from my GT-I8160 using Tapatalk 2

This is my prediction, although I'd prefer white over orange for the color accents
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Randy Pence on August 29, 2014, 09:20:11 AM
Thanks to the first two guys who gave me solid replies and thanks in advance to anyone willing to further the discussion without going too far off topic. I will definitely take a look into danley products but as you say.. chinese whispers and pseudo science are most likely to bring about their downfall in the future too if that's how it works whenever someone starts to like a particular brand.

The thing about Danley gear is that it is backed up by real science.  Andrews has made out quite good saying how much his designs are "holistic" and such, whereas the impression of Danley (in the press release marketing) is that they are space-age.  It doesnt hurt that many high profile artists have been pleased with the systems.  Whisperings and pseudo science have also made line arrays the dominant system design in most applications, to be fair.  I've also had to hear enough f1 systems where far too few boxes were used to cover hte dancefloor, but given enough reflections off the walls and hte purple color, nobody else cared.

Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Guy Graham on August 29, 2014, 10:13:51 AM
{snip}

I would hate to think that every person who comes onto this forum with a similar type question is always told they're enamoured with the look only and they should buy another brand which is better. What is best I'm sure is objective in the same way as one guy will rate a lexus and another an audi.

{snip}

I'm not sure your comparison is valid in the way I think you intend (though I may have misunderstood).

If one guy rates an Audi and another rates a Lexus, it's not unlikely they'll have similar taste. Hence both may well also rate the others preference, over other similar priced and type of offerings.

In that particular segment of the car market, both Audi and Lexus are synonymous with understated good looks, and avoidance of outrageous design flair. Both marques generally prefer subtle hints at their performance, over the visual bells and whistles of the competition.

When compared with their nearest competitors in that market segment - namely Mercedes, BMW and Jaguar, I see Audi and Lexus as actually having a lot in common.

Even the sportiest cars from Audi and Lexus are understated, compared to their close competitors. The Lexus LFA and Audio R8 are both styled conservatively for high performance sports cars, and brand flagships - especially when contrasted with the likes of Mercedes' SLS, the BMW M6 or a Jag F-Type or XK.

Sent from my GT-I8160 using Tapatalk 2
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Milt Hathaway on August 29, 2014, 10:58:19 AM
Yet it seems the OP prefers the large physical display and is enamored with complexity...not what I would call a solid business plan.

Very solid business plan if that's what his clientele prefer.
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on August 29, 2014, 11:18:19 AM
Very solid business plan if that's what his clientele prefer.

Yes.

What makes me wonder about the business aspect of it is the amount of concern for individual frequency bands rather than ROI.  I get a vague feeling he's more concerned with fiddly gear stuff than bottom line, but this IS a tech forum first of all...
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Guy Graham on August 29, 2014, 11:30:14 AM
It is a tech forum, and folks have offered advice and expertise of significant worth. But the OP has been effectively rejecting solid advice, and posed further questions such as:

{snip}

I'm not really sure why you think my plan is complex. Basically I'm saying I can't afford to buy 2 dance stacks plus amps, speaker management outright and it will take me time to build up to the point where I can rent it. In the meantime I don't think having 2 subs in my garage that I can't use is a great idea and I would like to be able to at least have parts of what my eventual goal is ticked off while still being able to have some quality sound.

{snip ... I'm starting to feel like a virtual Mohel ;) }

Your plan is complex for several reasons...

Firstly you are set on buying a specific make of loudspeaker (and spending a lot of money to boot) that your best experience of left you feeling that it didn't quite perform to your own ideal standards, so you further complicate things by trying to remedy a sonic deficiency you've perceived, through soliciting advice online.

It would most certainly be less complex if you at least knew what you needed to buy to fulfill your eventual objectives - but instead you are asking questions that require very detailed product knowledge. I would not for a moment suggest you should not ask such questions, only point out that when you receive useful advice you don't seem to like - don't criticize the advice or the place it came from!

Secondly the way you plan to purchase this system is very complex (in comparison to how such purchases are usually made). The fact that you are not able to buy all the elements at the same time, but you hope that you can buy usable parts of a system designed to be used "as one" in a holistic sense (and was designed thus) adds further degrees of complexity.

In the quest to achieve your standards (which you are perfectly entitled to aspire to and seek out) you have chosen the most complicated system design offered by the manufacturer you chose. Furthermore it's a design that you concede is not really designed for the "ease of movement" your purposes require - more complications.

I'm not trying to make this any more difficult for you, and can offer some descriptions of the Funktion One rigs I've seen work well - usually just 3 different types of boxes:

1) a top box based on the dispersion requirements of the application. A Res 2, Res 4, Res 5 or even one of the Res 9s, which were originally built for London's Millennium Dome.

2) a sub from the many different options on offer; plenty of choice in F1 territory.

3) sometimes to achieve maximum efficiency in larger areas, or to extend the system frequency response -  choose a second sub to cover whichever of part of the passband isn't effectively done with the 1st sub type. This could be a "kick box" or an infra-type device covering roughly the bottom octave - sometimes down to 20Hz, for the fullest frequency coverage.


If you wanted to achieve the same, but via a less complex route - you could have picked a 3-way actively driven horn loaded Martin Audio top with WSX subs and appropriate Martin-badged amps and processing ... just like the award-winning system in London MoS.

Even easier would be Nexo Alpha with Ray Subs (or other/additional subs to suit) and NX4x4 amps/processors.

For an even easier plug'n'play system, consider KV2: 2 or 4 ES tops, 4 to 8 ES2.6 2x15 subs or ES1.8 1x18 subs or a mix (there's a simple knob on the amp/controller for every suitable combination of their subs), plus however many EPAK2500 units needed.


I have no objection to you indulging in what you consider to be the most luxurious option, that's your choice. But to claim that the way you presented your plan is not complex begins to stretch the definition of complexity ... and my dictionary ain't that elastic!

A lot of the questions posed here would be better directed to the Funktion One dealer you plan to buy from, as your complicated plan really needs that kind of specialist knowledge.

Sent from my GT-I8160 using Tapatalk 2
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Art Welter on August 29, 2014, 11:41:46 AM
In the meantime I don't think having 2 subs in my garage that I can't use is a great idea and I would like to be able to at least have parts of what my eventual goal is ticked off while still being able to have some quality sound.

You can't, as far as I know, have quality sound from just DS10  or just F218. I am no expert but I don't think anyone would disagree with me on that.

Because of that, I am asking for the best way to incorporate the resolution speakers initially so I have some nice gear at home that I can play around with and learn more about.
Rich,

I didn't find the DS10 in their line up, but assuming it is a single version of the DS210, it and the F218 won't provide "quality sound" for two basic reasons:
1) The horn loaded 10" only operate down to 227 Hz, the vocal range extends easily an octave below that. Although the F218 can cover up to 300 Hz, it has no fly points, and unless it is co-located with the (presumably) elevated top cabinets, vocals and instruments will drift in apparent location between the bass and mid cabinets. Regardless of musical style or language, everyone knows that the human voice location should not wander with different notes.
2) The F218 uses relatively lightweight, low excursion cones to achieve high sensitivity in a BR cabinet. Since bass is often pushed a bit beyond Xmax (linear excursion) the vocal range will be modulated by bass tones, resulting in a "gargling" sound, technically AM (amplitude modulation) distortion, typically referred (incorrectly) to as "Doppler" or IM distortion. Regardless of what you call it, everyone knows that the human voice shouldn't sound modulated, garbled, or grossly distorted, unless employed as an effect.

The Res2 or 4 solve those two problems by reaching -3 dB to 50 Hz and 114 Hz respectively.  When the sub crossover point is at 100 Hz  (114 Hz is close enough for rock and roll, but as mentioned yesterday requires 3 amp sides for less bandwidth than the Res 4) the low frequencies from the sub are difficult to locate, preventing problem #1 even when the subs are located on the ground. Since very little vocal range in pop or EDM goes below 100 Hz, problem #2, AM distortion, is pretty much eliminated, assuming the Res 2 or 4 bass section is run under Xmax. Only "problem" left is the small bass horns in the Res 2 or 4 can not "keep up" with the higher efficiencies of the mid and high horns. That said, if one looks at the cabinet design the way Tony Andrews (or I) would, we see upper headroom available to deliver clean transients, rather than an anemic mid-bass.

One other difference between  Res2 or 4 (probably not too relevant to your business model) is the Res 4 rigging is designed to accommodate long hangs, while the M10 fly points on the Res 2 limit the array.
Note that they are only 50 x 25 degree nominal dispersion, for stereo use to cover most venues a minimum of four cabinets are required.

Regarding  other brands- although I do prefer the Synergy horns from the standpoint of providing a better ultimate single point source, and more uniform dispersion (again probably not too relevant to your business model) the DSL model is actually a bit more limited as far as expansion, you need to "buy in" pretty much at the SPL level you want to achieve, and because of their constant directivity conical horn design, sensitivity is less than the Function One offerings for a given nominal dispersion.

Art
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on August 29, 2014, 12:13:13 PM
As another guy said, F1 perhaps does have impressive marketing but it still performs well. Relate this in car terms and I'm sure you can think of loads of brands of cars that do the job well that have an inflated price tag to incorporate the cost of this marketing.

I don't particularly think there's anything wrong with that and it can be found in many different fields.

Yes, part of my reasoning to go with F1 is due to the fact it's imposing, looks good and is much more likely to get me rental because of that and the 'mystique' that surrounds it. I plan to use it myself when I put on events but at the same time, getting a bit of cash from rental is not something I am going to just ignore. The other part is that I've heard it before and liked what I heard apart from said missing punch. From what I can tell this can be remedied.

I'm not really sure why you think my plan is complex. Basically I'm saying I can't afford to buy 2 dance stacks plus amps, speaker management outright and it will take me time to build up to the point where I can rent it. In the meantime I don't think having 2 subs in my garage that I can't use is a great idea and I would like to be able to at least have parts of what my eventual goal is ticked off while still being able to have some quality sound.

You can't, as far as I know, have quality sound from just DS10  or just F218. I am no expert but I don't think anyone would disagree with me on that.

Because of that, I am asking for the best way to incorporate the resolution speakers initially so I have some nice gear at home that I can play around with and learn more about. Later they will be put to another use but for the meantime my questions were pretty simple;  Res 2 or res 4   and some qustions about the mid range options.

I would hate to think that every person who comes onto this forum with a similar type question is always told they're enamoured with the look only and they should buy another brand which is better. What is best I'm sure is objective in the same way as one guy will rate a lexus and another an audi.

Thanks to the first two guys who gave me solid replies and thanks in advance to anyone willing to further the discussion without going too far off topic. I will definitely take a look into danley products but as you say.. chinese whispers and pseudo science are most likely to bring about their downfall in the future too if that's how it works whenever someone starts to like a particular brand.

Hi Rich-

I certainly understand how brand name and product appearance will steer the impressions of potential clients.  We're a big JBL VerTec shop and part of reason why is the acceptance of the brand by our clients and potential clients.  There were (and still are) other products that may be "better" in some aspects, but for us the ubiquity of the brand acceptance was a major deciding factor.

That you see Funktion 1 brand as a valuable marketing tool should not be lost on the responders.

That said, I go back to my original comment about trying to build a rig on the box-a-month plan.  In my observation over the last 30+ years, these plans seldom work out.  Why?  Because shit happens.  Your kid gets sick, your wife or husband is in a car wreck or work accident, you biggest client goes out of business, a competitor with shiny new toys opens, or the local economy takes a dump.

So this is my "homework assignment":  do a business plan - a formal one - that you could take round to bankers and finance people.  They won't loan you anything (most likely), but developing the plan to this level should give you a really good indication if your current ideas will work or not.  How much business do you think you can initially generate with a greatly scaled down system?  How much income from that work can be rolled back into the rig?  Every time you spend another 10,000 Euro/Pounds/dollars how much can you increase your rates, and how long will it take you to develop higher paying work for the additional inventory?  If incremental growth will take too long or leave you vulnerable to competition, you need outside capital to birth this rig whole and fully formed, and factor in the additional expenses of financing (or taking a partner, etc) into the equasation.

The real issue, Rich, is that these decisions are more about *business* than about sound itself.  You can have a money making business, a money losing business, or a money-pit hobby.  Only one of those do I find attractive... ;)

Keep sussing this out.  Doing this "right" will be terribly expensive and should scare the hell out of you.  And then you'll do it anyway.  Don't give up, but keep your eyes wide open.  You need to know when to spend and when to sell off.  IF your timing is good, you can do this several times without bankruptcy... trust me.
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Doug Fowler on August 29, 2014, 12:46:32 PM
As fashions do change, I could imagine that with some clever marketing Danley could make F1 kit passe on the UK scene.

I can imagine buzzwords like "synergy", "coherence" and "efficiency" whispered by converts educating the die-hard Funktion One folk, and another mixture of myth, marketing and fact would become common parlance on that scene.

Discovering something better than F1 may gain traction and perhaps even widespread acceptance. In my experience the dance music scene loves finding stuff with that elusive "exclusive" cool factor - and will happily turn facts into pseudo science via the Chinese whispers used to exchange information!

Sent from my GT-I8160 using Tapatalk 2

In fact there is a Danley system scheduled to do a show in London soon. I believe the only obstacle is flying J1s.  I have been told it's already on Digweed's rider.  There should also be good representation at ADE in October. 
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 29, 2014, 01:00:51 PM
As fashions do change, I could imagine that with some clever marketing Danley could make F1 kit passe on the UK scene.

I can imagine buzzwords like "synergy", "coherence" and "efficiency" whispered by converts educating the die-hard Funktion One folk, and another mixture of myth, marketing and fact would become common parlance on that scene.

Discovering something better than F1 may gain traction and perhaps even widespread acceptance. In my experience the dance music scene loves finding stuff with that elusive "exclusive" cool factor - and will happily turn facts into pseudo science via the Chinese whispers used to exchange information!

Sent from my GT-I8160 using Tapatalk 2
I did a 3 day EDM festival a few months ago.  A lady came up at the end and said thank you for providing the stage with great sound.  She said it was way better than last year in which they had an F1 rig.

NOW THE KICKER-She was the wife of the owner of the system used last year---------------go figure.
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Lee Douglas on August 29, 2014, 01:15:01 PM
Damn.  I should have kept those giant Community fiberglass horns I had years ago and painted them purple or white!  I coulda been one of the cool kids!
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 29, 2014, 02:15:38 PM
Damn.  I should have kept those giant Community fiberglass horns I had years ago and painted them purple or white!  I coulda been one of the cool kids!
I painted the flares on my 4560s and my horns white decades ago
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Guy Graham on August 29, 2014, 02:16:50 PM
In fact there is a Danley system scheduled to do a show in London soon. I believe the only obstacle is flying J1s.  I have been told it's already on Digweed's rider.  There should also be good representation at ADE in October.

That's no surprise to hear Danley has found favour in such quarters - John Digweed (and sometime partner Anthony Coe / Sasha) have always been well ahead of the curve, in pushing the creative boundaries of DJ culture forwards, and cutting through the bullshit that often comes with it.

What's impressive is how he has stayed at the top of the game, while things swing in and out of fashion - plowing his own furrow, without alienating the huge fanbase of the different genres he successfully blends.

Sent from my GT-I8160 using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Randy Pence on August 29, 2014, 04:22:31 PM
That's no surprise to hear Danley has found favour in such quarters - John Digweed (and sometime partner Anthony Coe / Sasha) have always been well ahead of the curve, in pushing the creative boundaries of DJ culture forwards, and cutting through the bullshit that often comes with it.

What's impressive is how he has stayed at the top of the game, while things swing in and out of fashion - plowing his own furrow, without alienating the huge fanbase of the different genres he successfully blends.

Sent from my GT-I8160 using Tapatalk 2

Minor correction would be that the name is of his former dj partner is alex/alexander and not anthony.

If I'm not mistaken, Funktion One sorta made its debut in the US 12 years ago in miami for a digweed party.  Danley had not seemed to really take off with the dance music crowd until pure groove had them painted orange and set up in miami this year.
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Guy Graham on August 30, 2014, 07:42:22 AM
Minor correction would be that the name is of his former dj partner is alex/alexander and not anthony.

If I'm not mistaken, Funktion One sorta made its debut in the US 12 years ago in miami for a digweed party.  Danley had not seemed to really take off with the dance music crowd until pure groove had them painted orange and set up in miami this year.

Sorry - well spotted!

I've met Digweed a couple of times, back in the mid 1990s before he'd worked in New York (Twilo was it?). Back then most of the other big names in the same genres of dance music tended to just turn up and play records, so it was interesting to talk to someone who was very actively involved in the production side.

I've enjoyed Sasha DJing a good few times back in the day, but I remember seeing a bunch of kids following him to get his autograph, which seemed rather geeky and uncool - quite out of keeping with what was then regarded as an underground scene!

Presumably you're referring to an event at the Miami Winter Music Conference. Back when I was more interested in this sort of thing, the winter event in Miami was always described as a big deal for such a small industry. It was noted how dance music wasn't such a big thing over there compared to the UK and Europe. Seems like the US has properly caught up now.

By coincidence a new club near me opened in the mid-2000s, and bought a nearly new Funktion One system from a venue in Miami. It seemed a long way to transport all that rig, but it certainly still sounds good with DJ playback. Unfortunately it's not really laid out for live gigs, and the only live music at this place is in another room.

Sent from my GT-I8160 using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Rich Green on August 30, 2014, 10:13:50 AM
It is a tech forum, and folks have offered advice and expertise of significant worth. But the OP has been effectively rejecting solid advice, and posed further questions such as:

Your plan is complex for several reasons...


Hi again everyone,

It's been a long time since I really participated in forums and I do realise I leave a lot to be desired in the presentation of my ideas. There's reasons for this that I won't go into but to get back on topic...

Originally I said I want to build a couple of dance stacks. One of the things I was asking is, if one doesn't have the cash up front for buying them plus amps and speaker management outright, is buying a couple of resolution cabs then soon after, some F218 a good way to still have what most people would say is a decent sounding system. To me now from what I've got from this forum and another, the res 2 is the best option to start with. I was wondering if 2 or 4 would be better but it seems like needing less amps while also having the ability to produce some lower bass make it the best option for me.

Going on from there, I'd be wanting to purchase bass cabinets and then in due time, complete the dance stacks and use the resolution cabs as monitors or near-range fills. Depending on how close the crowd gets to the speakers, if you have them on the left and right of the room, surely the people right in the middle at the front (die hard ravers?) are going to be missing some of the best of the sound compared to standing back a bit in the 'sweet spot'. This is something I've thought about but then again there's a good chance those people may just have to miss out (perhaps they don't care that much to start with) and they'd be better used as monitors.

Now that I've almost certainly made up my mind about which of the resolution cabs would be better in the interim, I also asked about what people knew about the difference between the DS15 and the F215. The fact that a distributor told me that modern dance stacks' ideal configuration for touring is to use the F215 over the DS15 at first sounded like a good idea if that's what the majority considers the best. When I looked at the frequency ranges and saw such a disparity, that is why I asked here.

To be honest, worrying about them is still down the track a little bit so I thought I'd get in my research early.

The final query I had was the order in which to buy the speakers so as to always have a good coverage of frequency ranges. More than likely by the end of the year I'll be the proud (possibly ridiculed by yourself) owner of 2xRes 2 + 2x F218 with FFA and MC2 amps (along with speaker management if I don't go with the built in option).  After that is where it gets tricky for me in my mind. To get the infrabass or F215/DS15 next a few months down the line. This is not that complex in my head and in all honesty, it probably doesn't matter that much as it wouldn't be too long before I'd get whichever I didn't get before soon after. I just thought someone might have an opinion on which would be better to get first. I'll take your suggestion about the infrabass on board for sure so thanks for that.

I have a couple of other posts to reply to so I'll leave it at that. I am grateful for all the knowledge that's getting imparted so sorry if I don't come off that way. As I said before, I've been away from forums for a long time and forgot that a lot of the time, when you make a post, you don't forsee how others may take it which leads to having to backtrack and explain more  (which leads me to the next post I'm about to make).
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Rich Green on August 30, 2014, 10:20:09 AM
Rich,

I didn't find the DS10 in their line up, but assuming it is a single version of the DS210, it and the F218 won't provide "quality sound" for two basic reasons:

<snipped>
One other difference between  Res2 or 4 (probably not too relevant to your business model) is the Res 4 rigging is designed to accommodate long hangs, while the M10 fly points on the Res 2 limit the array.
Note that they are only 50 x 25 degree nominal dispersion, for stereo use to cover most venues a minimum of four cabinets are required.


Hi again Art,

Thanks for your time. I did mean the DS210 I'm sorry. I realise that one res cabinet on top won't do the job alone which is why I plan to get round to buying that eventually along with dedicated 15" cabinets and make the res cabinet my monitors/near range speakers.

Also you took a lot of time to reply to my statement about using the DS210 + F218 when I was kind of just saying that I knew that wouldn't work so I apologise for time wasted on your behalf.

I did a couple of hours snooping around online regarding the danley products. I found it interesting in 2011 you had a few back and forths with the man himself and his team. Have you had a chance to hear them since then and if so, what was your impression?

Thanks in advance again!
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Rich Green on August 30, 2014, 10:32:57 AM

That you see Funktion 1 brand as a valuable marketing tool should not be lost on the responders.

That said, I go back to my original comment about trying to build a rig on the box-a-month plan.  In my observation over the last 30+ years, these plans seldom work out.  Why?  Because shit happens.  Your kid gets sick, your wife or husband is in a car wreck or work accident, you biggest client goes out of business, a competitor with shiny new toys opens, or the local economy takes a dump.

The real issue, Rich, is that these decisions are more about *business* than about sound itself.  You can have a money making business, a money losing business, or a money-pit hobby.  Only one of those do I find attractive... ;)

Keep sussing this out.  ...


Thanks for the positive words and advice Tim. As I did mention before, there are quite a few guys with DIY rigs here. If I'm to put on my own parties eventually, I'm sure I could rent their stuff. Having my own cuts down that expense and also having my own means that other people may rent from me. Like you say, having something that people a) recognise as pretty well-regarded worldwide  and b) has whatever word you want to use akin to 'aura'  which may in turn drive more rental opportunities is definitely a factor in why I am keen to go with F1

I've been lucky in life I suppose and have a solid business that shouldn't wane too much even with a torrid economy. I'm also mortgage-free so this whole dance stack project will hopefully be achievable within 2 years for me. I basically have enough to purchase what I mentioned 2 posts ago and then hopefully I can save another 60,000 pounds which I figure is about what I need to get the components listed in around that time. The guys I knew in Taiwan before who have constructed a pretty successful business out of F1 had a lot more money to start with so they were able to get full rentals right from the get-go but they also did a lot of sound reinforcement type rentals ie. just their subs and if I am able to do that to get a bit more cash in the kitty, that will also be nice.

I am wary of having bits and pieces out there for public opinion before it's complete / ready to be presented as the full package so thanks to anyone who gave me that advice and I'll put your minds at ease by saying I had at least thought that through.

Finally I should say I used to be extremely good at maths (now my mind is old I'm definitely nowhere near as fast) and I have never had any issues with money, budgets, staying afloat and bankruptcy therefore won't enter the equation. I hope none of this comes off as conceited, I just want to put your minds at rest that although I'm not ready to buy it all outright to start, this won't be a 10 year endeavour that has the potential to negatively affect my life in general (at least as far as cash goes - who knows what other critics may be out there ready to slander my efforts!).

Kind regards, Rich
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Rich Green on August 30, 2014, 10:34:22 AM
Danley had not seemed to really take off with the dance music crowd until pure groove had them painted orange and set up in miami this year.

Maybe I should just flag this whole plan, build my own stuff and take some painting courses :)
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on August 30, 2014, 11:08:36 AM

Thanks for the positive words and advice Tim. As I did mention before, there are quite a few guys with DIY rigs here. If I'm to put on my own parties eventually, I'm sure I could rent their stuff. Having my own cuts down that uexpense and also having my own means that other people may rent from me.
Kind regards, Rich

Have you done the math on owning vs. renting?  If you own it, you have the expenses of storage, maintenance, transportation, insurance and so on.  If you rent you just pay for the time you use.

How many events do you project doing in a year?  How often will you need to rent out to break even?  Is this a business or a hobby you hope will pay for itself?  Do you have sufficient cred that you're sure of your draw for your self-produced stuff? 

If it's a business and you're as debt-free as you say, write out your business plan and talk to the banker.  Otherwise, rent until you've tested the market and established some kind of track record.
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 30, 2014, 12:23:19 PM
Minor correction would be that the name is of his former dj partner is alex/alexander and not anthony.

If I'm not mistaken, Funktion One sorta made its debut in the US 12 years ago in miami for a digweed party.  Danley had not seemed to really take off with the dance music crowd until pure groove had them painted orange and set up in miami this year.
And while we are "correcting" ------------  ;)  ;)

John Digweed first played on a Danley system in Atlanta this same weekend last year.

Carsten Eichstadt   https://www.facebook.com/carsten.eichstadt?fref=ts     
was the first one to paint the cabinets orange.

It has kind of caught on, and other people are having them made in other colors as well-red blue etc

Clarity (out of Charlotte NC) was the first company to take an interest in Danley for EDM shows-several years ago.  They do installs mainly in clubs-but also sports venues.

But I do agree that the Pure Groove relationship is bringing the products more mainstream in that market.
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Spenser Hamilton on August 30, 2014, 12:32:00 PM

Have you done the math on owning vs. renting?  If you own it, you have the expenses of storage, maintenance, transportation, insurance and so on.  If you rent you just pay for the time you use.

This, so much this. I'm currently storing a portion of my gear at one of my venues in exchange for prime rental pricing, the rest gets carried in and out of my basement.

The next step is renting shop/storage space, or moving to a new home with garage. Neither of which are small/easy objectives.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Art Welter on August 30, 2014, 12:40:40 PM

I did a couple of hours snooping around online regarding the danley products. I found it interesting in 2011 you had a few back and forths with the man himself and his team. Have you had a chance to hear them since then and if so, what was your impression?
I have not heard any new DSL products since 2009, but listening and testing confirmed their specifications. DSL's spec sheets are far more comprehensive than Function One, which as far as I have seen show no measurements at all, which makes decisions regarding their line difficult.
One example would be the DS210, basically two nominal 50 degree horns in a side by side arrangement with what looks like about a 15 degree splay- yet the dispersion is rated at 100 degrees. If you looked at the DS210's polar chart (if one existed) or listen to the response, you would find that it has a 100 degree dispersion at very few frequencies.

Back in the 1970's through the early 1990s I built cabinets very similar to current offerings from Function One, they remained in use with Southern Thunder Sound for quite some time after I sold the company in 1992.

In 2000, after hearing a Clair Brothers line array system, decided to abandon my "point and shoot" horn system, and  built a vertical array, which improved coverage consistancy, but due to some design flaws, was not completely satisfactory.
In 2008, I converted to "Danleyism", building a system with Paraline HF, offset horn mid drivers sharing the same horn, and tapped horn low frequency. I have been more happy with the consistent coverage with this system (presently for sale, I'm semi retired) than anything I have previously used or heard.
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,151006.0.html
Having heard tons of Tony's Turbosound designs back in the day, I can attest that in terms of even coverage, the DSL approach is hands down the winner.

Art
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 30, 2014, 05:50:16 PM
But Art-don't you realize that is is more important how it "looks" and how you "think" it works than how it ACTUALLY does??????????

As the current market seems to think-since fewer and fewer products actually have any useful information.

My favorite for an amp power spec is "adequate".  So exactly how much power is that?????????

I guess it is less than "excessive" and more than "lacking"-----------  3dB less or 6dB????
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Rich Green on August 31, 2014, 03:09:11 AM
Have you done the math on owning vs. renting?  If you own it, you have the expenses of storage, maintenance, transportation, insurance and so on.  If you rent you just pay for the time you use.

How many events do you project doing in a year?  How often will you need to rent out to break even?  Is this a business or a hobby you hope will pay for itself?  Do you have sufficient cred that you're sure of your draw for your self-produced stuff? 

If it's a business and you're as debt-free as you say, write out your business plan and talk to the banker.  Otherwise, rent until you've tested the market and established some kind of track record.

No one has this gear here. I have never been into renting or buying anything on credit or mortgage (unless the rate was extremely low and I'd be able to pay it back fast).

Yes, I suppose talking to a banker is an option. Thanks for the tip.  It's a hobby that will cost me lots but I may get some good experiences out of owning it. I have a friend who has done a 2 year live sound engineering course and I want to learn from him and from the experience. I could rent other gear but then all I get to do is look and not touch more than likely.

Luckily I have a big double garage with not much to store in there so I will have them in there.
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Rich Green on August 31, 2014, 03:11:57 AM
This, so much this. I'm currently storing a portion of my gear at one of my venues in exchange for prime rental pricing, the rest gets carried in and out of my basement.

The next step is renting shop/storage space, or moving to a new home with garage. Neither of which are small/easy objectives.

This is also an option I've considered. I may jump at the opportunity if it presents itself. My city had a huge earthquake 3 years ago which decimated pretty much every club in town and it is finally starting to be rebuilt. There's a very real possibility of being able to put what I own into a place and being able to get prime rental prices as you mention.
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Rich Green on August 31, 2014, 03:21:38 AM
But Art-don't you realize that is is more important how it "looks" and how you "think" it works than how it ACTUALLY does??????????

Hi Ian,

I had a look at some of your speakers and I saw them ranging from around 230-360kg. That really sounds like a mission to move them around. If I just have a small rig that would work for say 800 peeople crowds, it doesn't seem cost effective to buy machinery or exo-skeletal suits on the black market (although I haven't yet asked the shady guy down the road for prices on them) that I would need to attempt to move them around.

They do sound impressive from the reviews though. Do you have any in New Zealand that I could go check out? This is half the problem that people replying to me keep missing. Although I could spend several thousand dollars flying to places in the world which do have them for me to listen to, is that really the best way in the end?  If I did cave into the pressure and buy them instead, I'm sure I'd be lambasted for buying something solely based on reviews and for buying something which I have to spend twice the amount on to buy machinery to move them around.

Obviously you guys have worked me out and it's true that the only reason I want to buy F1 is cause they're purple and purple is my favourite colour. How much on average would it cost extra per speaker for you to make the danley speakers colourful for me?

Thanks in advance
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on August 31, 2014, 04:56:21 AM

They do sound impressive from the reviews though. Do you have any in New Zealand that I could go check out? This is half the problem that people replying to me keep missing. Although I could spend several thousand dollars flying to places in the world which do have them for me to listen to, is that really the best way in the end?  If I did cave into the pressure and buy them instead, I'm sure I'd be lambasted for buying something solely based on reviews and for buying something which I have to spend twice the amount on to buy machinery to move them around.

Hi Rich-

We didn't miss the Kiwi Konnection, you never told us.

Danley makes a number of products that weigh 100kg or less.  The primary focus of their product line has been the installation market.  Certain niceties that make transport easier are unneeded and undesired expenses in that market.  Rumour has it that DSL will be announcing some products designed with portable use in mind.

The use of brand names in positioning ones business is important.  When we make our initial VerTec purchase it was from a mid-size firm in Los Angeles.  I called the owner and asked him why he was changing from a predominantly JBL shop to D&B.  He said "this is LA, you can get a VerTec rig on every corner, plus I got divorced a year ago and every time I look at old gear it reminds me of my ex."  The humor aside, he was right that becoming a D&B dealer and end user gave him some exclusivity and brand cachet that he could never get with JBL in his market.

That said, other than my business observations I have no opinion on F1 versus anything else.  I've heard the F1 used for live work and wasn't impressed with it in that role, but not heard one of Tony's kids lovingly set up for dance use.  Maybe it's better for that...  I think you should plan a "listening holiday" and arrange to hear as many suitable systems as possible.  It's an investment in learning and hopefully not misspending your money when you decide what to purchase.  This is part of the total expense of acquiring and owning a system and should be factored into the cost basis.

And I will use this opportunity to suggest auditioning a system by Fulcrum Acoustics.  Their speakers have been making their way into some very high end dance club installations with pleased owners and guest artists.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on August 31, 2014, 07:08:33 AM
Hi Rich-

We didn't miss the Kiwi Konnection, you never told us.


" I'm in New Zealand..."

Quote from post #1.

Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Guy Graham on August 31, 2014, 09:50:48 AM
Hi there, I saw the word 'newbie' in this forum description so that's why I'm posting here.

Hopefully there's some F1 pros on board who can help me with my questions. I'm in New Zealand so there's nowhere local I can go to check out F1 systems (althought I heard them overseas and was happy with the sound) and I want to make the right decisions right from the start because incorrect purchases will be quite dire.

I have my mind set on building a couple of the dance stacks. Myself and others feel that your typical Res 2/4 + 218/221 build lacks a bit of punch in the lower mid and the dedicated 15" speakers I've read are suitable for plugging this gap. Since they'll be for rental and not installation, ease of movement is more of a priority than it otherwise would be. Because of that I'm currently ruling out the F221.

{snip}

3. I have been told and read that the F215 is a better option than DS15 for non-installs because the DS15 doesn't travel well or something to this effect. Is this a common selection now for this purpose?

{snip}


I'm a Google amateur and Funktion One skeptic.

I've heard F1 boxes sound very good, and can see why some folks are attracted to the brand and happy to pay the purple premium - but I'm struggling to understand some other things...

I put the brand name and country in question into Google. The second search result found these nice people:

http://www.fullfunktion.co.nz/services.html

They are the exclusive distributor and also rent out F1 systems, as well as selling them to the whole of New Zealand ... but you knew that, right?

I wouldn't expect them to have the "dance stack" boxes in stock, that one is intended as an install product - thus probably won't "travel well".

There are similarly-performing brethren in the range, incorporating specific design elements suited to the touring/rental market, in line with your objectives. Some options from those product lines have already been mentioned.

For example Res 2 boxes could work as the top boxes you buy first. Then you would only need to hire in subs of some kind, to create a decent small small EDM rig to earn money, whilst you waited to buy the next item on your shopping list.

Once you're at the end of your timeline in terms of purchases, you could repurpose the Res 2s as front fills (for example). Then complete your rig with more powerful tops, such as Res 4 or 5s (depending on your dispersion requirements and coverage needs).

As you have a local NZ company with some of the F1 range apparently available to hire out - wouldn't it make sense to hire all the various permutations of box combinations offered by this company?

Then use the real world experience you gain to determine which are the best products to put on your shopping list, as well as the order in which to buy them - to best maximize the earning potential of what you buy once you own it.

As you determine what boxes to buy, you can also find out from this company what boxes you can hire to supplement whatever is missing (as you buy various boxes over time).

In pursuit of your final objective, you can sometimes compromise on your frequency-specific concerns with the products you hire to fill in the "gaps", without too much risk - plus it will give you helpful learning experience. All the while maintaining a useful relationship with the company best placed to offer you F1 products in New Zealand!


So my question essentially is have you approached this company? Did they give information contrary to what is stated on their website? What have they available both to hire and demo?

Once you have recommendations based on your needs and circumstances, then come back here if you want the benefit of a second opinion :-)



Sent from my GT-I8160 using Tapatalk 2
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 31, 2014, 10:20:42 AM

Hi Ian,

I had a look at some of your speakers and I saw them ranging from around 230-360kg. That really sounds like a mission to move them around. If I just have a small rig that would work for say 800 peeople crowds, it doesn't seem cost effective to buy machinery or exo-skeletal suits on the black market (although I haven't yet asked the shady guy down the road for prices on them) that I would need to attempt to move them around.

They do sound impressive from the reviews though. Do you have any in New Zealand that I could go check out? This is half the problem that people replying to me keep missing. Although I could spend several thousand dollars flying to places in the world which do have them for me to listen to, is that really the best way in the end?  If I did cave into the pressure and buy them instead, I'm sure I'd be lambasted for buying something solely based on reviews and for buying something which I have to spend twice the amount on to buy machinery to move them around.

Obviously you guys have worked me out and it's true that the only reason I want to buy F1 is cause they're purple and purple is my favourite colour. How much on average would it cost extra per speaker for you to make the danley speakers colourful for me?

Thanks in advance
You are looking at the large stuff-designed for crowds much larger than 800.  There are many other products that weigh a lot less.

You could use something like the SM80 (around 30KGs) with some subs and do a good job-depending on the size of the crowd and performance expected.  Or the SH46 (53Kg) for an arrayable type box.

On the louder single box side there is the SH96HO (100Kgs) that can do quite a large crowd.  Here is a link to a video I took from a show this past Fri night.  There is NO post processing-just taking the file that came from the Zoom hand held recorder and posting it.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=929301453765901&set=vb.100000581642030&type=2&theater

Use headphones for best sound.  A photo of the setup is below.

There are a couple of system in New Zeland -I don't know the contacts off the top of my head. When I get back in the office next week I can check and give you some contacts

I am not in sales, but I do know there is an upcharge for anything other than black or white.  How much I do not know.  You could contact [email protected] for that information.

Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Martin Morris on August 31, 2014, 05:25:51 PM
You are looking at the large stuff-designed for crowds much larger than 800.  There are many other products that weigh a lot less.

You could use something like the SM80 (around 30KGs) with some subs and do a good job-depending on the size of the crowd and performance expected.  Or the SH46 (53Kg) for an arrayable type box.

On the louder single box side there is the SH96HO (100Kgs) that can do quite a large crowd.  Here is a link to a video I took from a show this past Fri night.  There is NO post processing-just taking the file that came from the Zoom hand held recorder and posting it.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=929301453765901&set=vb.100000581642030&type=2&theater

Use headphones for best sound.  A photo of the setup is below.

There are a couple of system in New Zeland -I don't know the contacts off the top of my head. When I get back in the office next week I can check and give you some contacts

I am not in sales, but I do know there is an upcharge for anything other than black or white.  How much I do not know.  You could contact [email protected] for that information.


http://lampros.co.nz/sales-install/audio (http://lampros.co.nz/sales-install/audio)
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 31, 2014, 05:40:20 PM

http://lampros.co.nz/sales-install/audio (http://lampros.co.nz/sales-install/audio)
Yeah that would be who I was thinking of.  Allister has been my main contact over the years.

Thanks for the link.
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on September 01, 2014, 12:19:36 AM
I was not familiar with this niche until the thread was started.  Then some pics of Void Acoustics were on Facebook PA of the day.  Magenta colored cabinets and the aesthetically interesting horns on top of the smaller stack in the middle.  Anybody else heard of these?  Might give the OP some interesting differentiation.  Manufacturers are usually interested in incentifying rental house that are willing to open new markets.

(http://www.voidaudio.com/pics/la.jpg)
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Steve M Smith on September 01, 2014, 01:43:14 AM
I was not familiar with this niche until the thread was started.  Then some pics of Void Acoustics were on Facebook PA of the day.  Magenta colored cabinets and the aesthetically interesting horns on top of the smaller stack in the middle.  Anybody else heard of these? 

Yes.  I discovered them about a year ago.

I was going to post a link - but I forgot!

http://www.voidaudio.com/


Steve.
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Chris Van Duker on September 01, 2014, 03:39:13 PM
I was not familiar with this niche until the thread was started.  Then some pics of Void Acoustics were on Facebook PA of the day.  Magenta colored cabinets and the aesthetically interesting horns on top of the smaller stack in the middle.  Anybody else heard of these?  Might give the OP some interesting differentiation.  Manufacturers are usually interested in incentifying rental house that are willing to open new markets.

(http://www.voidaudio.com/pics/la.jpg)

I heard what I think was that exact Void rig earlier this year when I was working at the How Weird Street Fair in SF. I liked it quite a bit, though the tops really needed to be flown and aimed better to get coverage to the back.

-Chris
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Randy Pence on September 01, 2014, 04:18:28 PM
And while we are "correcting" ------------  ;)  ;)

John Digweed first played on a Danley system in Atlanta this same weekend last year.

Carsten Eichstadt   https://www.facebook.com/carsten.eichstadt?fref=ts     
was the first one to paint the cabinets orange.

It has kind of caught on, and other people are having them made in other colors as well-red blue etc

Clarity (out of Charlotte NC) was the first company to take an interest in Danley for EDM shows-several years ago.  They do installs mainly in clubs-but also sports venues.

But I do agree that the Pure Groove relationship is bringing the products more mainstream in that market.

I stand corrected (regarding who coined the color), but from my perspective as someone that has been following your company on the web since its beginning, it is only now where I see real press with respect to this market.  A polish (or was it ukrainian?) club had an install.  There is one in SF, but the partnership with pure groove is what is pushing things.  I was under the impression that pure groove was behind the color because they seemed to be behind the press for a higher profile event in amsterdam which I assume Carsten was involved in.

Anyhow, I wonder which colors are next.  Purple, blue (multiple shades), brown, red, and yellow have already been used in hte last ten years, but I'm sure some of you old farts have seen hte full spectrum.
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on September 01, 2014, 05:00:12 PM
I stand corrected (regarding who coined the color), but from my perspective as someone that has been following your company on the web since its beginning, it is only now where I see real press with respect to this market.  A polish (or was it ukrainian?) club had an install.  There is one in SF, but the partnership with pure groove is what is pushing things.  I was under the impression that pure groove was behind the color because they seemed to be behind the press for a higher profile event in amsterdam which I assume Carsten was involved in.

Anyhow, I wonder which colors are next.  Purple, blue (multiple shades), brown, red, and yellow have already been used in hte last ten years, but I'm sure some of you old farts have seen hte full spectrum.
Carsten was the first one to color the cabinets.  He choose orange because it was a color nobody else was using and would easily stand out and be recognized.

The Pure Groove orange is not quite as "vibrant" but still gets the idea across and they wanted to continue the "look" since it was well received in Germany.

"The Hardpop" club in Mexico city choose a dark red to match their color scheme.

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/portfolio/public-venues/the-hardpop/
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Alex Rigodanzo on September 01, 2014, 05:40:59 PM
He choose orange because it was a color nobody else was using and would easily stand out and be recognized.

Like JBL badges? ;) ;)
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on September 01, 2014, 05:58:53 PM
Like JBL badges? ;) ;)
Except for the size and the "look" of the exposed horn.

It's pretty hard to find a color that is "decent" and not used before.
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Rich Green on September 02, 2014, 11:14:19 PM
Does it have to be funktion one?

Given what you want to do, I'd think about 4 danley dbh218 subs and 2 sh96ho tops to round out a couple stacks

Decided to wait a few days and see if anything else got added.

It's interesting that void and danley especially got plugged all the way through this and I don't think I saw one person say they liked F1. I think it was about six for Danley and about 3 for 'anything but Funktion One'

Is Tony Andrews good at talking about what sound should sound like, keeping signal chains clean etc and you all agree on that but when it comes to buying his gear then no, don't do that - there's much better and this is pretty much the predominate opinion of all sound guys on various forums online?

Just seems a bit strange to me that's all. Anyway you've got me questioning the decision if that helps.
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on September 03, 2014, 03:18:24 AM
I want to make it very clear I did not plug Void.  I was researching a market I had no knowledge of until you asked your question.  I was fascinated by the aesthetics of the Void, that is all.

I knew Danley before I came to these forums and I the systems I have heard and their resume speaks for themselves.  Sonically you will blow away your competition (based again on Hearsay on the F1 stuff).

I don't want my rambling to be weighted improperly in your decision.




Sent from my To Be Filled By O.E.M. using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Doug Fowler on September 03, 2014, 11:30:55 AM

Is Tony Andrews good at talking about what sound should sound like

Y E S

He's very articulate and passionate. 

Here's the deal:

If not for the way the product looks,  F1 would not have anywhere near the market penetration in the EDM market segment it currently enjoys.

Put it in a black box with a grille and no one would give it a second look. 

A couple of my friends are each FOH for the two top trance DJs on the planet.  They, and a lot of Europeans, call it "Funktion None".  Their words, not mine.  And I understand why, having tuned up a large Res 5 rig.  I had to quit and was still nowhere satisfied.  My two pals arrived, each having to use this thing and after I was done apologizing they assured me it was "better than most" (whew) and carried on.  That's when I "got it". 

It's all been driven by "coolness factor", and once the seed was planted the club owners bought in, the DJs swallowed it whole, and the course was set. 

It should be clear that this coolness factor is part of the EDM market.  BTW, where do we see concert sized F1 rigs other than EDM?  It happens, but not that much.  There are precisely 5 rental users in the US. 5.  Why is that?

Void: @ ULTRA in 2013, AIS debuted the Void line array.  The previous year, AIS brought their traditional horn loaded trap boxes. Each sounded fantastic, to anyone I spoke to about it.  The line array was easily the best sounding system on site.  Very smooth, easy on the ears, and proper coverage.

Danley: I will be with a J1 / BC415 rig at Nocturnal over the weekend.  I already know what this system sounds like - fantastic.  BTW I will be driving it with a Mackie VLZ4 402.  Heh.

Long story short - I have used and tuned Res 5 and Danley.  I tuned the Void line array system and listened to it extensively. I listened to the Void trap system extensively. 

A wise man would be looking to the future, not 15 year old technology, unless you just _have_ to have F1.

Ignore the marketing spin. 

Does anyone have a pointer to Funktion One frequency/phase measurements?

Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Art Welter on September 03, 2014, 11:59:18 AM
1)A wise man would be looking to the future, not 15 year old technology, unless you just _have_ to have F1.
2)Ignore the marketing spin. 
3)Does anyone have a pointer to Funktion One frequency/phase measurements?
1) Other than a lot more diffraction inducing sharp edges, I don't see any difference in Tony Andrews current "technology" from his 36 year old Turbosound designs.
2) Good advice regarding any manufacturer.
3) Since Tony moved operations "down on the farm", haven't seen anything other than dimensional measurements.  If you don't have Funktion One frequency/phase measurements after having tuned up a large Res 5 rig, I doubt you will find any.
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Doug Fowler on September 03, 2014, 12:12:10 PM
1) Other than a lot more diffraction inducing sharp edges, I don't see any difference in Tony Andrews current "technology" from his 36 year old Turbosound designs.
2) Good advice regarding any manufacturer.
3) Since Tony moved operations "down on the farm", haven't seen anything other than dimensional measurements.  If you don't have Funktion One frequency/phase measurements after having tuned up a large Res 5 rig, I doubt you will find any.

I will check for saved traces.  I very clearly remember muting various passbands and was astonished at the basically perfect response (no magnitude discrepancies) in the mid section.

Of course, "measures well" does not equal "sounds good".
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Janne Paul on September 09, 2014, 03:25:23 AM
Assuming that the alternatives listed are not available in NZ, one should consider if crosshire from the already established F1 shop may be needed.


Ignore the marketing spin. 


Or use it to your business advantage.
An one-man show can probably not afford any marketing. It may be wise to choose a strong brand even when there are others offering a better product.
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Doug Fowler on September 09, 2014, 02:12:14 PM
Assuming that the alternatives listed are not available in NZ, one should consider if crosshire from the already established F1 shop may be needed.

Or use it to your business advantage.
An one-man show can probably not afford any marketing. It may be wise to choose a strong brand even when there are others offering a better product.

Agreed. 
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Rich Green on September 10, 2014, 07:58:35 AM
Assuming that the alternatives listed are not available in NZ, one should consider if crosshire from the already established F1 shop may be needed.

Or use it to your business advantage.
An one-man show can probably not afford any marketing. It may be wise to choose a strong brand even when there are others offering a better product.

The established guy is pretty much just a solo guy importing what he can afford. While his written plan was quite decent, his ability to convey his points on the phone I found a little lacking.

I definitely agree with your second point. F1 is a huge brand worldwide and shopping the name around to some established promoters here, I did find a decent amount of possible future-pursuable avenues.

Having said that, I spent the last week researching Danley products whenever I had the chance and it does seem like it does what it says on the tin. I think a bit of a boost in the marketing department would help a lot. Engineers have never been great at that from what I can tell.
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on September 10, 2014, 08:47:31 AM


Having said that, I spent the last week researching Danley products whenever I had the chance and it does seem like it does what it says on the tin. I think a bit of a boost in the marketing department would help a lot. Engineers have never been great at that from what I can tell.
Marketing dept-WHAT marketing dept????????????????
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Rich Green on September 10, 2014, 09:42:26 AM
Marketing dept-WHAT marketing dept????????????????

Well that's it exactly. From what I can tell getting all the installs at the stadiums and churches must be paying the bills.

I guess the pure groove guy is helping when it comes to touring and club installs?
Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on September 10, 2014, 11:01:49 AM
Well that's it exactly. From what I can tell getting all the installs at the stadiums and churches must be paying the bills.

I guess the pure groove guy is helping when it comes to touring and club installs?
Basically it is word of mouth and people having success with the products-rather than trying to convince them of things that are not always achievable-but look good on pretty drawings.

If the products work-people will come back.  If they don't, then the manufacturer got their money once-but not again.

And then there are the people (a large percentage of our industry) who want to "believe" that something does what it says-rather than confirm it. 

If it has the "cool factor" then many will like it-even if it does not work as it should :(

Title: Re: Funktion One Dance Stack - How to build it from the start?
Post by: Doug Fowler on September 10, 2014, 02:51:18 PM

I guess the pure groove guy is helping when it comes to touring and club installs?

Not yet, but is definitely raising the bar and turning heads at festivals and smallish events. 

My impression from Nocturnal Wonderland last weekend is the Insomniac chief(s) were quite impressed.