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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Jon Ross on June 23, 2014, 12:19:56 PM
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I have some questions about the X32 Rack for an IEM rig for a 6 piece bluegrass band I'm working with. The band has currently used a Mackie DL1608 for a little over a year now. The Mackie has worked great but the X32 Rack sounds like it will offer a few more features that will make playing more enjoyable for a few of the band members. Ok, heres my questions:
-Stereo mixes
They want to have stereo IEM mixes. There are 8 xlr outputs and 6 1/4" aux outputs on the X32 rack. Is the X32 capable of 6 stereo aux sends using a combo of the xlrs and 1/4" outs?
-FOH from IEM rig
In some situations I would need to be able to run a L+R FOH mix from this unit as well as the 6 stereo aux sends for IEM. The total channel count for all band members is 11 channels. Would I be able to "duplicate" these inputs to different channels so that the band members mixes won't be affected by the FOH channel eq?
-P16
One of the band members hates using the iphone to mix his IEMs. He thinks he will like using the p16. How does this work? Do you assign the p16 to a certain aux send? Will the other 5 members still be able to mix from their iphones? The p16 has some eq and pan control on it. Will this affect every mix if modified from the p16?
-Only using 1 P16
If I'm using only one p16 do I need to still purchase the P16 distribution box? I might get it anyway since more than one band member may want to switch.
I have mixed on the X32 surface a few times but have never put my hands on the X32 Rack version or P16s
Thanks in advance everyone for your help and input
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-Stereo mixes
They want to have stereo IEM mixes. There are 8 xlr outputs and 6 1/4" aux outputs on the X32 rack. Is the X32 capable of 6 stereo aux sends using a combo of the xlrs and 1/4" outs?
Yes, You can route them to either outputs. Download X32-Edit and play around with it.
-FOH from IEM rig
In some situations I would need to be able to run a L+R FOH mix from this unit as well as the 6 stereo aux sends for IEM. The total channel count for all band members is 11 channels. Would I be able to "duplicate" these inputs to different channels so that the band members mixes won't be affected by the FOH channel eq?
Yes, You can do this you will need to go to the config tab on each channel and select the source. Again see X32-Edit to play around with it. You can also enable HA Gain split to give you a pre-amp control of the actual headamp in the setup pages and then each of those channels will have a digital trim.
-P16
One of the band members hates using the iphone to mix his IEMs. He thinks he will like using the p16. How does this work? Do you assign the p16 to a certain aux send? Will the other 5 members still be able to mix from their iphones? The p16 has some eq and pan control on it. Will this affect every mix if modified from the p16?
You can assign anything to it, but sending Aux sends defeated the purpose of the p16, though I have never used them I'd imaging most are just sending Direct outs or post EQ outs of each channel since you said you only have 11 channels you can send all of them to the p16s.
-Only using 1 P16
If I'm using only one p16 do I need to still purchase the P16 distribution box? I might get it anyway since more than one band member may want to switch.
No but it does provide PoE so you don't have to have a power brick on stage which might be nice. Don't know. But it's not required.
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-P16
One of the band members hates using the iphone to mix his IEMs. He thinks he will like using the p16. How does this work? Do you assign the p16 to a certain aux send? Will the other 5 members still be able to mix from their iphones? The p16 has some eq and pan control on it. Will this affect every mix if modified from the p16?
IIRC, the default X32 routing for the P16 is first 16 inputs go to P16. The P16M is standalone and changing ones mix from it does NOT impact any other mix.
-Only using 1 P16
If I'm using only one p16 do I need to still purchase the P16 distribution box? I might get it anyway since more than one band member may want to switch.
NO.. the distro is generally not needed unless you want/need to power them via CAT5. If you don't use the distro, only the FIRST P16 (if you daisy-chain multiple) is powered via CAT5.. the others require the power supply connected, which is why each comes with a wall-wart power supply.
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IIRC, the default X32 routing for the P16 is first 16 inputs go to P16.
It's PreEQ of those channels but, yes.
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with the P16, can you send a group to one channel number on it? Say for instance I have 17 wireless for a musical pit. I want to just send them a mix of the 17, and then give them the option to mix the inputs I'm getting from them for the other 15 channels?
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with the P16, can you send a group to one channel number on it? Say for instance I have 17 wireless for a musical pit. I want to just send them a mix of the 17, and then give them the option to mix the inputs I'm getting from them for the other 15 channels?
The Routing matrix lets you send any of the 16 mix busses to any of the P16 channels.. so in theory, yes..but I have not tried it.
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with the P16, can you send a group to one channel number on it? Say for instance I have 17 wireless for a musical pit. I want to just send them a mix of the 17, and then give them the option to mix the inputs I'm getting from them for the other 15 channels?
Yes, anything with the exception of DCAs which aren't actual groups, can be sent to p16 routing.
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Thanks for the replies!
I think I was confused in thinking the p16 was really just controlling an aux send but that doesn't seem to be the case.
I've downloaded x32 edit and some of this is making more since now. Still unsure how to make a stereo aux?
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Thanks for the replies!
I think I was confused in thinking the p16 was really just controlling an aux send but that doesn't seem to be the case.
I've downloaded x32 edit and some of this is making more since now. Still unsure how to make a stereo aux?
I assume you are refering to a BUS and not a Aux input, the aux inputs on the board are the 1/4 and RCA Jacks.
Buses are made stereo by linking them on the home page for that channel, only certain channels can be linked, and will also be 1 odd number and 1 even. (ex 1&2, 3&4, 5&6, 7&8, 9&10, 11&12, 13&14, 15&16 can all be made in to stereo buses)
In X32-Edit if you are on the home screen and click the select button for a buss the link button is under the first little column where it says "IN" and has the level meter.
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I assume you are refering to a BUS and not a Aux input, the aux inputs on the board are the 1/4 and RCA Jacks.
Buses are made stereo by linking them on the home page for that channel, only certain channels can be linked, and will also be 1 odd number and 1 even. (ex 1&2, 3&4, 5&6, 7&8, 9&10, 11&12, 13&14, 15&16 can all be made in to stereo buses)
In X32-Edit if you are on the home screen and click the select button for a buss the link button is under the first little column where it says "IN" and has the level meter.
Jason, I think Jon was asking how to get STEREO mixes into his IEM transmitters... I'm also curious as to the best way to do this on the X32. My assumption is one needs to use 2 bus sends (main or AUX) per IEM mix to satisfy this.. since 7/8 are L/R mains by default, that leaves 3 stereo mixes available on the main busses (1-6) and 3 more by using the 6 Aux outs.
I'd also like to know how (if?) one can route the main outs (7/8) to any of these IEM mixes. I was unable to figure that out using routing or assignments using X32-PC. Main out can be assigned to Matrix sends from home screen but I don't know if those equate to Bus 1-6 or not.
My band is about to face this issue when the new X32 [Producer] arrives later this week. We have been using mono IEM mixes on my Presonus 16.4.2 for recent gigs..
We're also planning on routing the effect returns into the IEM mixes.. which is assume is done by selecting the AuxIn/FxRtn button, select the corresponding effect return, going to home screen and assigning levels to one of the output busses.. ?? And can one send those same effects returns to the 3 stereo mixes going to the AUX outs..
or .. is all of the above.. way wrong to start with? Console has not arrived yet...!
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Jason, I think Jon was asking how to get STEREO mixes into his IEM transmitters...
Yes I figured. All you do is link them just as you would a stereo channel. The First Channel EX: Buss 1 then becomes the level, Bus 2 would the become the pan.
Both Bus Mixes and Main Mix can be routed to any of the outputs either XLR or 1/8 (and even the RCA)
Also be careful what you are calling an AUX on this board. the monitor/IEM mixes (along with group mixes etc) are Buss mixes, AUX on the x32 in referring to AUX outputs (1/8 and rca) or the 1/8 & RCA inputs. There is no AUX as far as monitor/descrte mixing on this board.
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Also be careful what you are calling an AUX on this board. the monitor/IEM mixes (along with group mixes etc) are Buss mixes, AUX on the x32 in referring to AUX outputs (1/8 and rca) or the 1/8 & RCA inputs. There is no AUX as far as monitor/descrte mixing on this board.
Understood, but those 1/4" outs ARE labeled as AUX sends in the doc, software and on the board, even if their intended use does not reflect the naming.
I do want to clarify that (at least on the rack/producer models) there are 8 BUS outs (XLR) and 6 AUX outs... removing bus 7/8 (for L/R mains) that leaves stock capability at 6 stereo IEM mixes... ??
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Understood, but those 1/4" outs ARE labeled as AUX sends in the doc, software and on the board, even if their intended use does not reflect the naming.
I do want to clarify that (at least on the rack/producer models) there are 8 BUS outs (XLR) and 6 AUX outs... removing bus 7/8 (for L/R mains) that leaves stock capability at 6 stereo IEM mixes... ??
Sorry I meant 1/4". The outputs weather AUX or XLR aren't specifically used for anything. You can route signals to any output.
There are 16 Busses on the X32 platform, They aren't tied to a specific output just like everything else. One thing to keep in mind in the digital word is there is virtual Mixing signal flow things ex: Busses, Groups, DCAs, Martixes etc. But that doesn't mean they have to go to a certain output all of that can be changed nothing is hardwired to a certain point on the board aside from the headphone/talkback and monitoring section.
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Understood, but those 1/4" outs ARE labeled as AUX sends in the doc, software and on the board, even if their intended use does not reflect the naming.
I do want to clarify that (at least on the rack/producer models) there are 8 BUS outs (XLR) and 6 AUX outs... removing bus 7/8 (for L/R mains) that leaves stock capability at 6 stereo IEM mixes... ??
Actually they say "AUX Input" or "AUX Output", not "send." An important distinction.
There has been a trend in the last 10 years or so to call all the ways out of consoles a "bus". If it's a fixed level bus it functions like a "subgroup" or "audio group" on an analog mixer, and if it's a 'variable bus' it works like what we called "aux sends" in the analog days. Note this new nomenclature was applied to analog consoles, too.
For the X32, though, you can think of the AUX outputs as being "auxiliary" to the XLR outputs. These outputs can be assigned to any bus, matrix, monitor or LRC output.... IOW anything that any XLR could be assigned to.
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Also, since it seems to be overlooked at the moment... the P16 units are simply taking audio channels and mixing them internally for their local outputs.
For clarity: The P16 DOES NOT control the mixer.
You may want to look at the x32 iPad app or Mixing Station app for android for remote control of the console. I think there may be another couple options available as well.
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Understood, but those 1/4" outs ARE labeled as AUX sends in the doc, software and on the board, even if their intended use does not reflect the naming.
I do want to clarify that (at least on the rack/producer models) there are 8 BUS outs (XLR) and 6 AUX outs... removing bus 7/8 (for L/R mains) that leaves stock capability at 6 stereo IEM mixes... ??
Since no one else said it, the answer is yes, you can get six stereo IEM Mixes plus a stereo mix out of an X32 rack with no additional hardware. That still leaves 4 bus sends to use for effects sends so it's a very efficient way to use the mixer.
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Since no one else said it, the answer is yes, you can get six stereo IEM Mixes plus a stereo mix out of an X32 rack with no additional hardware. That still leaves 4 bus sends to use for effects sends so it's a very efficient way to use the mixer.
LOL - thanks for stepping up Brian !!
Now.. I've been playing around with the X32 software (mixer is enroute to band leader, so we'll use my Presonus for this weekend gigs, then X32 next weekend) and I can't figure out how to route the main outs (XLR 7/8) to the IEM mixes on Busses 1-6 and Aux Outputs (Thanks Tim!) 1-6 ... !! Is it in the routing tables, or via 7/8 routing on channels themselves or ??
I've googled it too.. nothing. Help/direction much appreciated... I want to know how to doi this as we don't have much time to swap out the mixer setups..
TIA !!
Steve
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LOL - thanks for stepping up Brian !!
Now.. I've been playing around with the X32 software (mixer is enroute to band leader, so we'll use my Presonus for this weekend gigs, then X32 next weekend) and I can't figure out how to route the main outs (XLR 7/8) to the IEM mixes on Busses 1-6 and Aux Outputs (Thanks Tim!) 1-6 ... !! Is it in the routing tables, or via 7/8 routing on channels themselves or ??
I've googled it too.. nothing. Help/direction much appreciated... I want to know how to doi this as we don't have much time to swap out the mixer setups..
TIA !!
Steve
Routing button, 2nd & 3rd tabs "Out 1-16" and "Aux Out".
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Routing button, 2nd & 3rd tabs "Out 1-16" and "Aux Out".
Thanks Tim... will take a look !
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I'd also like to know how (if?) one can route the main outs (7/8) to any of these IEM mixes. I was unable to figure that out using routing or assignments using X32-PC. Main out can be assigned to Matrix sends from home screen but I don't know if those equate to Bus 1-6 or not.
Steve, you're confusing the physical outputs with buses. A "bus" is not inherently connected to a specific output ("default" is NOT inherent). Your L/R physical outputs for the PA could just as easily be XLR 1 and 4, or XLR 3 and AUX4.... And they could just as easily be Matrix bus outs as L/R bus outs.
You route bus outputs to physical connectors as I described in my previous post.
Yamaha calls the physical outputs "OutPorts" and now I understand why they chose that nomenclature. An "output" is a signal, "OutPort" is a physical connection.
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Steve, you're confusing the physical outputs with buses. A "bus" is not inherently connected to a specific output ("default" is NOT inherent). Your L/R physical outputs for the PA could just as easily be XLR 1 and 4, or XLR 3 and AUX4.... And they could just as easily be Matrix bus outs as L/R bus outs.
You route bus outputs to physical connectors as I described in my previous post.
Yamaha calls the physical outputs "OutPorts" and now I understand why they chose that nomenclature. An "output" is a signal, "OutPort" is a physical connection.
Tim, I understand where you might think that, but I don't believe that's the case.. I believe I know the difference. I know I can route the "main out/master fader" bus to any allowed physical output on the X32.. be that 1 thru 16 (or cards, P16, etc). I also know that 7/8 are assigned by "default". I know I can route a channel to multiple busses and assign a bus to a physical connector. So I can use Bus 1/2, mapped to XLR out 1/2 as my first stereo IEM mix (panning, etc. aside).
But... what I want to do is "have the option" of blending the main FOH output signal (routed to OUT 7/8 by default) into one (or more) of the 5 stereo IEM mixes that the X32 will support with this band. The band mixes from stage, so at least one of us needs to monitor FOH mix levels. The first 3 IEM mixes are planned to be routed to OUT busses 1/2, 3/4, 5/6 (assigned to physical XLR 1-6) with the two more busses (9/10, 11/12) routed to the AUX 1/2, 3/4 outputs. This should (as mentioned above) leave busses 13-16 available for effects.
I then want to be able to add individual channels [to taste] to each IEM mix. So for IEM mix #1, I need FOH and various channels routed to XLR 1L/2R ports.
Does this make sense? I know how to do this WITHOUT main outs patched (pretty simple), but can't figure out where to patch/insert/blend the masters.
Or am I completely off on all of it :)
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Tim, I understand where you might think that, but I don't believe that's the case.. I believe I know the difference. I know I can route the "main out/master fader" bus to any allowed physical output on the X32.. be that 1 thru 16 (or cards, P16, etc). I also know that 7/8 are assigned by "default". I know I can route a channel to multiple busses and assign a bus to a physical connector. So I can use Bus 1/2, mapped to XLR out 1/2 as my first stereo IEM mix (panning, etc. aside).
But... what I want to do is "have the option" of blending the main FOH output signal (routed to OUT 7/8 by default) into one (or more) of the 5 stereo IEM mixes that the X32 will support with this band. The band mixes from stage, so at least one of us needs to monitor FOH mix levels. The first 3 IEM mixes are planned to be routed to OUT busses 1/2, 3/4, 5/6 (assigned to physical XLR 1-6) with the two more busses (9/10, 11/12) routed to the AUX 1/2, 3/4 outputs. This should (as mentioned above) leave busses 13-16 available for effects.
I then want to be able to add individual channels [to taste] to each IEM mix. So for IEM mix #1, I need FOH and various channels routed to XLR 1L/2R ports.
Does this make sense? I know how to do this WITHOUT main outs patched (pretty simple), but can't figure out where to patch/insert/blend the masters.
Or am I completely off on all of it :)
Steve, I think I understand what you're trying to do (add FOH mix into one or more band members' IEM mix), but what I don't understand is how said band member is going to discern between the FOH mix and his monitor mix. How will you know if the excess guitar you're hearing in your IEM is due to too much guitar in the FOH mix, or due to too much guitar in the monitor mix? If you pulled the individual channels out of your IEM mix to listen to FOH it would ruin your IEM mix every time and you'd have to start from scratch. It seems easier to me to just put a cue wedge on stage and physically pull out your earbuds if you wanted to adjust FOH.
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Tim, I understand where you might think that, but I don't believe that's the case.. I believe I know the difference. I know I can route the "main out/master fader" bus to any allowed physical output on the X32.. be that 1 thru 16 (or cards, P16, etc). I also know that 7/8 are assigned by "default". I know I can route a channel to multiple busses and assign a bus to a physical connector. So I can use Bus 1/2, mapped to XLR out 1/2 as my first stereo IEM mix (panning, etc. aside).
But... what I want to do is "have the option" of blending the main FOH output signal (routed to OUT 7/8 by default) into one (or more) of the 5 stereo IEM mixes that the X32 will support with this band. The band mixes from stage, so at least one of us needs to monitor FOH mix levels. The first 3 IEM mixes are planned to be routed to OUT busses 1/2, 3/4, 5/6 (assigned to physical XLR 1-6) with the two more busses (9/10, 11/12) routed to the AUX 1/2, 3/4 outputs. This should (as mentioned above) leave busses 13-16 available for effects.
I then want to be able to add individual channels [to taste] to each IEM mix. So for IEM mix #1, I need FOH and various channels routed to XLR 1L/2R ports.
Does this make sense? I know how to do this WITHOUT main outs patched (pretty simple), but can't figure out where to patch/insert/blend the masters.
Or am I completely off on all of it :)
I'm not a P16 guru, but it looks like this might be the way to go. You can create the 6 stereo buses you need and for anyone who doesn't need house L/R, you can use the XLR and AUX jacks; for players that need both, route the stereo buses to P16 (outs 1-12) and L/R to P16 (outs 15-16, save 13-14 for something else). If all players using the P16s don't need a particular stereo bus mix, you can use its P16 outs for other things.
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Steve, I think I understand what you're trying to do (add FOH mix into one or more band members' IEM mix), but what I don't understand is how said band member is going to discern between the FOH mix and his monitor mix. How will you know if the excess guitar you're hearing in your IEM is due to too much guitar in the FOH mix, or due to too much guitar in the monitor mix? If you pulled the individual channels out of your IEM mix to listen to FOH it would ruin your IEM mix every time and you'd have to start from scratch. It seems easier to me to just put a cue wedge on stage and physically pull out your earbuds if you wanted to adjust FOH.
Scott, makes perfect sense and I agree. The band leader mixes FOH, so he'd be the one with the FOH mix and nothing else - or has said that's what he wants, but is NEW to IEM's and has never tried it. Some of the others have expressed an interest in building on top of that, but they (too) are relatively new to IEM mixes and have never. I've been using them for years, and DON'T WANT the FOH mix in my ears.. I want my own mix. The wedge on stage would work great for him, but we'd need to try it. Better than the IEM mix, but it's more stuff to carry to gigs.. there's no sound guy (but me) with this band so I'm researching options up front so we don't lose time - we'll be using the X32 next weekend probably.
I was throwing out the questions on how to do the FOH mix, so "IF" the others wanted to build on it, I'd know how to do it, and also be able to take it away and give them their own (non-FOH) mix.
This X32 is new and en-route, so we don't have it yet. We've been running mono IEM mixes (as we will again this weekend) from the AUX OUTS on my Presonus 16.4.2. from stage for the last gigs (for a number of reasons). While it doesn't have the X32 routing flexibility it does give 5 IEM's mixes. It's VERY easy for a band member to go over, punch their AUX and adjust their levels + effects on the fly.
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This X32 is new and en-route, so we don't have it yet. We've been running mono IEM mixes (as we will again this weekend) from the AUX OUTS on my Presonus 16.4.2. from stage for the last gigs (for a number of reasons). While it doesn't have the X32 routing flexibility it does give 5 IEM's mixes. It's VERY easy for a band member to go over, punch their AUX and adjust their levels + effects on the fly.
I'm not a presonus user so I can't make a direct comparison, but the "Sends on Faders" works well, especially via ipad/phone or Android remote apps. From the surface it might involve an extra button press. Once you get used to the UI difference I think you'll like the X32.
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I'm not a presonus user so I can't make a direct comparison, but the "Sends on Faders" works well, especially via ipad/phone or Android remote apps. From the surface it might involve an extra button press. Once you get used to the UI difference I think you'll like the X32.
Thanks Tim.. yes.. I agree. All the research and reading/watching vids I have done contributed toward the decision to go with the X32 - versus the other contenders, mostly triggered by the old Mackie's 2 monitor mix limit, price point and the bands need for REAL faders on the stage (versus Rack/iPad).
The 16.4.2 is a stop gap measure (as I happen to own one) and in use due to various timings that delayed arrival of the X32.. I think it should arrive today or Monday...
Looking forward to using it! :)
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Tim, I understand where you might think that, but I don't believe that's the case.. I believe I know the difference. I know I can route the "main out/master fader" bus to any allowed physical output on the X32.. be that 1 thru 16 (or cards, P16, etc). I also know that 7/8 are assigned by "default". I know I can route a channel to multiple busses and assign a bus to a physical connector. So I can use Bus 1/2, mapped to XLR out 1/2 as my first stereo IEM mix (panning, etc. aside).
But... what I want to do is "have the option" of blending the main FOH output signal (routed to OUT 7/8 by default) into one (or more) of the 5 stereo IEM mixes that the X32 will support with this band. The band mixes from stage, so at least one of us needs to monitor FOH mix levels. The first 3 IEM mixes are planned to be routed to OUT busses 1/2, 3/4, 5/6 (assigned to physical XLR 1-6) with the two more busses (9/10, 11/12) routed to the AUX 1/2, 3/4 outputs. This should (as mentioned above) leave busses 13-16 available for effects.
I then want to be able to add individual channels [to taste] to each IEM mix. So for IEM mix #1, I need FOH and various channels routed to XLR 1L/2R ports.
Does this make sense? I know how to do this WITHOUT main outs patched (pretty simple), but can't figure out where to patch/insert/blend the masters.
Or am I completely off on all of it :)
I think you could have the IEM mix that the person monitoring FOH uses fed by a pair of Matrices(Left and Right). You could then send a mix of their IEM bus and the Main L/R bus to the Matrices and patch the matrices to the desired physical outputs. Also, even more useful, you could probably configure a pair of user defined buttons(physical or virtual) to mute/unmute the Main L/R and IEM mix feeding the matrices(such as UDK 5 toggles mute for the IEM mix and UDK 6 toggles mute for FOH mix).
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Steve, I do very nearly the exact thing with my X32 Rack and my Furman HDS6 IEM send.
To get the L/R into the single stereo input of the HDS6 from the X32, I use the sends from the L/R to matrix mix 1 and 2. I then route matrix mix 1 and 2 to AUX output jacks 1 and 2.
I have mono sends going to busses for 1) lead guitar, 2) rhythm guitar, 3) bass, and 4) drums. Each of those busses is routed to the physical aux outputs 3,4,5, and 6.
The HDR (receiver) then acts as a mixer with 5 pots. One for the stereo L/R input, and one for each of the other aux mixes.
This also has the side effect of getting wet vocals into the IEM mix.
If a band member doesn't want to use the L/R, he simply turns that knob down all the way and makes his own 4 way mix.
Using the matrix mixes also provides you with a way of controlling the output volume of the L/R going into the IEM send unit since you can tap the bus off pre-fader to prevent overloading the inputs of the IEM send if the output of the mixer gets too hot from the L/R mix.
If you want, send me a PM with your e-mail address and I can send you a scene file showing this routing.
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If you combine the main mix with an aux mix, the two mixes will likely have differing amounts of latency. The resultant comb filtering will sound quite crappy.
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If you combine the main mix with an aux mix, the two mixes will likely have differing amounts of latency. The resultant comb filtering will sound quite crappy.
I'm not so sure this is true with the X32, Tim. All outputs have a 0.3 second latency (by default), you could certainly add more.
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If you combine the main mix with an aux mix, the two mixes will likely have differing amounts of latency. The resultant comb filtering will sound quite crappy.
Nope. It sounds very clean in fact.
From the MIDAS M32 marketing material:
25 time-aligned and phase-coherent mix buses