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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: David Parker on December 01, 2012, 04:28:56 AM
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I am so tired of people telling me they can't hear the singer in one of my bands. That's the money channel, I pay close attention to it, and it's always appropriately in the mix, leave me alone! So tonight one person was complaining the girl was too loud and some body else was complaining they couldn't hear her at all. It's a rock band in a room with bad acoustics. If you are sitting in the wrong place, you are going to hear a lot of stage wash. We don't get paid enough or have enough time to find every nook and cranny in the room with nulls and such and fix them. We're in a different venue every time.
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I am so tired of people telling me they can't hear the singer in one of my bands. That's the money channel, I pay close attention to it, and it's always appropriately in the mix, leave me alone! So tonight one person was complaining the girl was too loud and some body else was complaining they couldn't hear her at all. It's a rock band in a room with bad acoustics. If you are sitting in the wrong place, you are going to hear a lot of stage wash. We don't get paid enough or have enough time to find every nook and cranny in the room with nulls and such and fix them. We're in a different venue every time.
The lead singers husband can't here her, the guitarists girlfriend can't hear him, The drummers brother can't hear him and the bass players friend can't hear him.
So we have no vocal-no guitar-no bass and no drums.
WOW-I thought a band was playing on stage-but I guess i was wrong.
I tell people if they want to mix it the way they want-go invest the money and do it themselves.
Or you could take a chance and step away from the console and let them step up and "figure it out".
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David, I'm sure you already do the things below, but the help of some newbies here are a few ideas:
Kind of tongue-in-cheek, but try panning vocals/instruments. Just tell the complainer to move to the other side of the room...
Or cross-pan from where the instruments are on stage, guitar on left gets panned to right to balance for the audience.
EQ can also be used to help people hear all of the instruments and vocals, you just need to carve space so the banging-distorted guitars aren't drowning out the drums and bass,... Lots of heavy cuts can open things up if the stage volume isn't overwhelming.
If the stage volume is loud, of course, we are all SOL. Tell the singers husband to go tell the guitar player to turn down :), grab some popcorn.
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The lead singers husband can't here her, the guitarists girlfriend can't hear him, The drummers brother can't hear him and the bass players friend can't hear him.
So we have no vocal-no guitar-no bass and no drums.
WOW-I thought a band was playing on stage-but I guess i was wrong.
I tell people if they want to mix it the way they want-go invest the money and do it themselves.
Or you could take a chance and step away from the console and let them step up and "figure it out".
one gal didn't like the response she got from me with her complaints, so she went to the keyboard player in the band (who is the leader). Then she and her party left. He got a taste of my world because he fielded two people's complaints, and they were polar opposites. My ex played keys, and any time we listened to live music, the keys were never loud enough for her.
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David, I'm sure you already do the things below, but the help of some newbies here are a few ideas:
Kind of tongue-in-cheek, but try panning vocals/instruments. Just tell the complainer to move to the other side of the room...
Or cross-pan from where the instruments are on stage, guitar on left gets panned to right to balance for the audience.
EQ can also be used to help people hear all of the instruments and vocals, you just need to carve space so the banging-distorted guitars aren't drowning out the drums and bass,... Lots of heavy cuts can open things up if the stage volume isn't overwhelming.
If the stage volume is loud, of course, we are all SOL. Tell the singers husband to go tell the guitar player to turn down :), grab some popcorn.
All good suggestions, but like you say. This band always has a lot coming off the stage, and it blends by the time it gets to me, but if someone is bent on sitting up close, there is no way I can fix that. Other than providing them my spare IEM bodypack and a set of headphones! I mean, if the guitarists amp is aimed at your head, and you're 30' from it, the main speakers are going to throw right over your head.
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All good suggestions, but like you say. This band always has a lot coming off the stage, and it blends by the time it gets to me, but if someone is bent on sitting up close, there is no way I can fix that. Other than providing them my spare IEM bodypack and a set of headphones! I mean, if the guitarists amp is aimed at your head, and you're 30' from it, the main speakers are going to throw right over your head.
Maybe a couple of front fills are needed?
John
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Maybe a couple of front fills are needed?
John
I'm sure front fills would help, but I think these folks were right in line with one of the guitarist's amp. With these small club gigs we're already overloaded with equipment we bring in, time involved, space available, electrical available, amount we're being paid, it's just not feasible to bring in more equipment. And, if someone is close and right in line with a guitar amp, I'm not sure that could be fixed. I could get the musicians to turn everything on stage down, but then they're not having a good time, so it's my job to make the best of a mess to begin with. Then someone takes all my joy away by complaining. There's not enough money in this to do it just for money. I got away from the big stuff with tech riders and bands road managers and engineers so I could do what I enjoy, set up the system and mix live audio. When it isn't fun anymore, I'll be out of it.
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I'm sure front fills would help, but I think these folks were right in line with one of the guitarist's amp. With these small club gigs we're already overloaded with equipment we bring in, time involved, space available, electrical available, amount we're being paid, it's just not feasible to bring in more equipment. And, if someone is close and right in line with a guitar amp, I'm not sure that could be fixed. I could get the musicians to turn everything on stage down, but then they're not having a good time, so it's my job to make the best of a mess to begin with. Then someone takes all my joy away by complaining. There's not enough money in this to do it just for money. I got away from the big stuff with tech riders and bands road managers and engineers so I could do what I enjoy, set up the system and mix live audio. When it isn't fun anymore, I'll be out of it.
You allow your musicians to point their amps out into the house?????
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You allow your musicians to point their amps out into the house?????
this one was cross-firing and the complainers were up front over to the side, right in line with it.
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You allow your musicians to point their amps out into the house?????
Why, oh why, is there not a "LIKE" function on the LAB? :)
OP, it's good that your guitarist is pointing his cabinet or combo across the stage. Is he also using a kickback stand? There must be some merit to the technique if The Boss is doing it with his 1960a 4x12s on the world's largest stages. Even the guys with Rect-o-verb combos do it, on the slightly smaller stage in the corner bar ;)
(http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn135/timtrace/TC%20Systems/boss.jpg)
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When it isn't fun anymore, I'll be out of it.
Where is the retirement party going to be held?
Had a show last night with Asleep at the Wheel, always a good show with a great crew. After a blazing fast out (great local crew at this venue, had the band and production out in 90 min), went to check out my boss's gig - he was doing a local act in a bar as a favor.
Guitarist plays a 4 x 12, Marshall 50 watt head.... and it was great unless you had the table right in front of the rig. Not overpowering GTR, but dominant because the PA speakers are hung from the ceiling with too little down tilt. For the rig he was playing, I was very pleased at the level the guitar was at in the house. What's funny/interesting/ironic, the guitarist has been signed to label deals, toured extensively, etc and has the least amount of stage ego of anyone I've worked with. His tone, timing and level are spot on for the venues he plays in and the songs on the set list, and he's the reason I don't universally hate guitarists (Thanks, Lance!).
I agree, David, whining asshats in the audience take the fun out of a gig. I usually tell them to get a table near the mixerperson. If it sucks there, they have genuine complaint. If it's just that they think there isn't enough of their favorite player/instrument, oh well. The only time I worry is if it's the band leader's Significant Other, and even then I usually find a nice way to say "find another table" if I think they're seated in a place where a different part of the stage wash is covering their lovey-dovey.
Really, though, this comes down to the mixerperson being seen as the "Sound Janitor." Most of the public and too many players see us as a semi-necessary evil, not a contributing equal.
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You allow your musicians to point their amps out into the house?????
+1. The more you can turn a guitar amp into Texas headphones the better off you are, Get it up high, as close to the ears of the guitarist as possible, pointing across the stage, not the audience.
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Why, oh why, is there not a "LIKE" function on the LAB? :)
OP, it's good that your guitarist is pointing his cabinet or combo across the stage. Is he also using a kickback stand? There must be some merit to the technique if The Boss is doing it with his 1960a 4x12s on the world's largest stages. Even the guys with Rect-o-verb combos do it, on the slightly smaller stage in the corner bar ;)
(http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn135/timtrace/TC%20Systems/boss.jpg)
I've tried to get him to tilt his amp back. No success. Spoiled band. He stands between his amp and his wedge and likes the guitar to be the same level in each.
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Where is the retirement party going to be held?
Had a show last night with Asleep at the Wheel, always a good show with a great crew. After a blazing fast out (great local crew at this venue, had the band and production out in 90 min), went to check out my boss's gig - he was doing a local act in a bar as a favor.
Guitarist plays a 4 x 12, Marshall 50 watt head.... and it was great unless you had the table right in front of the rig. Not overpowering GTR, but dominant because the PA speakers are hung from the ceiling with too little down tilt. For the rig he was playing, I was very pleased at the level the guitar was at in the house. What's funny/interesting/ironic, the guitarist has been signed to label deals, toured extensively, etc and has the least amount of stage ego of anyone I've worked with. His tone, timing and level are spot on for the venues he plays in and the songs on the set list, and he's the reason I don't universally hate guitarists (Thanks, Lance!).
I agree, David, whining asshats in the audience take the fun out of a gig. I usually tell them to get a table near the mixerperson. If it sucks there, they have genuine complaint. If it's just that they think there isn't enough of their favorite player/instrument, oh well. The only time I worry is if it's the band leader's Significant Other, and even then I usually find a nice way to say "find another table" if I think they're seated in a place where a different part of the stage wash is covering their lovey-dovey.
Really, though, this comes down to the mixerperson being seen as the "Sound Janitor." Most of the public and too many players see us as a semi-necessary evil, not a contributing equal.
really good comments. The band's significant others usually leave me alone. I've worked with Nashville musicians several times over the years and typically they are the best with simple stage setups and wonderful volume control.
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really good comments. The band's significant others usually leave me alone. I've worked with Nashville musicians several times over the years and typically they are the best with simple stage setups and wonderful volume control.
My favorite complaint is when the band shows up late, you get maybe a cursory line check and it's "go time". Someone will come up to complain about the "mix" within 30 seconds while the band is making requests for "more me in my monitor" over the vocal mics.........
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One time I was running a small one-off show, speakers on sticks in a church, ~75 heads, and the moment the downbeat happens a guy from the middle of the seated crowd stands up turns around and yells back to me that he can't here the guitar. I had been mixing for less than 1 second!
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I've tried to get him to tilt his amp back. No success. Spoiled band. He stands between his amp and his wedge and likes the guitar to be the same level in each.
Tell him if he wants the amp and the wedge the same he needs to tilt the amp like the wedge.
Mac
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I have now found out that one of the complainers last night is a friend of an ex member of the band. Explains that! and one of the other complainers has the hots for the lead singer. Two down!
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Two down!
B flat.......
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everyone has two jobs....the one they do and sound guy
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I think all live sound guys should take a music production crash course. There are a lot mistakes i see people make in the live sound field that aren't made in the studio. There are also a lot of things you do live that make zero sense to do in the studio.
You know what I think would be really handy (and this may already exist) but multi-channel EQ / Compressor with a real time response curve. Possibly with 2: Original and Effected.
Josh Billings
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I think all live sound guys should take a music production crash course. There are a lot mistakes i see people make in the live sound field that aren't made in the studio. There are also a lot of things you do live that make zero sense to do in the studio.
You know what I think would be really handy (and this may already exist) but multi-channel EQ / Compressor with a real time response curve. Possibly with 2: Original and Effected.
Josh Billings
there's a lot of things we do live to survive. We don't have the benefit of isolation and re-dos. We don't have the benefit of controlled acoustics. We have to deal with feedback and loud monitors, something the studio guy never has to mess with. It would be a piece of cake if all the musicians live wore headphones. The one band I work for that is all on IEMs is a breeze to mix. A recording guy will crash and burn with a loud band in a small club until he learns survival skills. I've seen it happen. Not that we might not benefit from some studio tricks.
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I have now found out that one of the complainers last night is a friend of an ex member of the band. Explains that! and one of the other complainers has the hots for the lead singer. Two down!
Look on the bright side. If it was fun at all feilding a few complaints wont take ALL the fun out of it.
One the other hand covering a karaoke gig at the last minute for a sick buddy left me vowing never to return to this venue.
The girl pictured wasn't bad... but the remainder were torture.
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Look on the bright side. If it was fun at all feilding a few complaints wont take ALL the fun out of it.
One the other hand covering a karaoke gig at the last minute for a sick buddy left me vowing never to return to this venue.
The girl pictured wasn't bad... but the remainder were torture.
you could probably make more money doing karaoke! on a recent cruise I heard comments that karaoke was supposed to be bad singing. I don't know!
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you could probably make more money doing karaoke! on a recent cruise I heard comments that karaoke was supposed to be bad singing. I don't know!
$100 show 40 to dj/kj 40 to gas tank. out of driveway at 6PM home at 3AM... worth it?
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(http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn135/timtrace/TC%20Systems/boss.jpg)
Oh, is that what the stage actually looked like? 8)
GTD
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I think all live sound guys should take a music production crash course. There are a lot mistakes i see people make in the live sound field that aren't made in the studio. There are also a lot of things you do live that make zero sense to do in the studio.
You know what I think would be really handy (and this may already exist) but multi-channel EQ / Compressor with a real time response curve. Possibly with 2: Original and Effected.
Josh Billings
Nothing warms my heart more then those nights where the band's "engineer" (ie guy who recorded their last demo in his basement) decides to have a shot at live sound.
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Nothing warms my heart more then those nights where the band's "engineer" (ie guy who recorded their last demo in his basement) decides to have a shot at live sound.
me to recording guy: I use mono bus fed subs because only a few mics like kick and bass need to be in the subs.
recording guy: activates subs for all channels and then proceeds to turn the LF all the way down on each channel other then kick, bass, ect.
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Nothing warms my heart more then those nights where the band's "engineer" (ie guy who recorded their last demo in his basement) decides to have a shot at live sound.
That would be me.
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This was why I said screw and retired. I now only do a few jobs here and there mostly Charity for my son's school and a few bands that are reasonable to deal with. Mixing Top 40 cover bands in Crapholes bars...I'd rather scrub toilets in Gand central station. Pay is better too.
:)
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This was why I said screw and retired. I now only do a few jobs here and there mostly Charity for my son's school and a few bands that are reasonable to deal with. Mixing Top 40 cover bands in Crapholes bars...I'd rather scrub toilets in Gand central station. Pay is better too.
:)
After 20 years of varsity sound, i recently 'retired' and took a leadership job at a local church. When i look back on my sound career, i find myself focusing on those 'magic' nights where the amazing artist creates something that is once in a lifetime that i got to be a part of. Lionel Hampton spontaneously shuffling out on stage at the Kennedy Center mere months before his death to lead the band in 'one more jam' comes to mind. But for every one of those there are a a dozen gigs with 'salt of the earth' [yes, that was a blazing saddles reference] patrons telling me how to do my job. I never got used to it, and no matter how exalted a level of gig i achieved, that nonsense never went away.
i don't miss it. i miss the relationships with the fabulously talented professionals that i worked with. but the blue hairs lining up to tell me how terrible i was at my job? yeah. i can do without that....
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After 20 years of varsity sound, i recently 'retired' and took a leadership job at a local church...but the blue hairs lining up to tell me how terrible i was at my job? yeah. i can do without that....
You cant tell me that doesn't happen at church :)
Jason
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You cant tell me that doesn't happen at church :)
Jason
my first 20 years in this business was almost all church concerts. Every member seemed to think they were an expert on live audio and it was their duty to educate me. I'd shudder every time someone came my way. One event I had a woman go off on me accusing me of intentionally trying to deafen all the kids in attendance. She was serious and angry.
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You cant tell me that doesn't happen at church :)
Jason
True. But I changed vocations AND locations.
I'm the music director and the guitar player. SPL is the sound guys gig. I.e. plausible deniability.... :)
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True. But I changed vocations AND locations.
I'm the music director and the guitar player. SPL is the sound guys gig. I.e. plausible deniability.... :)
I had a 2 person act (female drumer/singer and a male bass player) she came off stage during sound check and wanted to set up my board. she had zero idea what she was twisting. I was trying to set the gains and get good clean signal I had nothing coming through speakers, since there was a dj playing. I just sat back and watched her do what ever she thought was right. When she went back on stage I just turned everything back. I took no offense to it and went on with my business.
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I fiddle with an unused channel - 9 times out of 10... drummers wife thinks I fixed or worked on her complaint. Dunno. Works for her though.
I also buy myself time with "hey give me 10 mins, I am working on a problem that doesn't exist..." they usually forget or environment changes, blah blah, works well.
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One time I was running a small one-off show, speakers on sticks in a church, ~75 heads, and the moment the downbeat happens a guy from the middle of the seated crowd stands up turns around and yells back to me that he can't here the guitar. I had been mixing for less than 1 second!
Reminds me of an annual outdoor festival gig I did a few years back as a BE, and a classic case of 'Not Enough Rig for the Gig'. As Announcer/MC Guy does his schtick, I'm doing line check through cans and Useless House MON Guy is trying to fix/patch around bad lines and dial in 6 mixes (we added 2 inputs to the house backline, so I don't know what his issue was). Announcer Guy walks off, somebody yells 'Go' and my artist starts. Then on Beat 2 of Bar 1, all PA cuts off except subs. I try to signal UHMG and/or my artist (no com or TB line) as something is SEVERELY wrong although signal flow seems fine at FOH. UHMG runs out waving his hands: "Dude, you gotta bring the master faders down, all the amps are in protect!" Apparently 95 dB out of the gate was too much.
The 'icing on the cake' moment when Lady In Crowd yells (as soon as the amps shut off) "There's too much bass!" :o
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What do you really expect to walk up to a small tent festival and find meyer FOH including galileo, midas venice because I am sorry the Ls9 needs to go to another show, for only a couple of hundred people at a charity gig?
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Used to have picture of one of our consoles from the late 70's. We punched 2 extra slider holes next to the Master slider, and labeled one "Final Master" and the other one "Tone" in big letters. Amazing how allowing a complainer to stand there and watch you adjust one of these until they were happy worked. Even more amusing was the band"s "engineer" who kept fiddling with the "Tone" slider during the drum solo at one local show....
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Used to have picture of one of our consoles from the late 70's. We punched 2 extra slider holes next to the Master slider, and labeled one "Final Master" and the other one "Tone" in big letters. Amazing how allowing a complainer to stand there and watch you adjust one of these until they were happy worked. Even more amusing was the band"s "engineer" who kept fiddling with the "Tone" slider during the drum solo at one local show....
Already have one of my DCA's on my X32 labeled "suck" ;D
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I fiddle with an unused channel - 9 times out of 10... drummers wife thinks I fixed or worked on her complaint. Dunno. Works for her though.
I also buy myself time with "hey give me 10 mins, I am working on a problem that doesn't exist..." they usually forget or environment changes, blah blah, works well.
Yup, used both of these a time or two (although 90% of complaints I hear come in during the first 4 bars of the first song and I really am working on an issue).
My favorite complaint is when the GF/mom/pita comes up before they even start playing to be 'sure I can get the sound they want'. This is (of course) right after I've gone from a 3pc rock band to a 5pc funk-rock band and just getting back to the board and just after starting to do sound check. I typically check new mic's first (which of course includes the guy who 'everyone' wants to hear), and listen to the compaint while un-muting all the channels and give em a go signal. Of course I forgot the new channel and that fancy sax solo is heard by no-one... including myself who is now working on getting the vocal up over their crappy amps since they didnt check at level in the first place. ..... FF to the end of the night (be sure the GF/mom/pita is nearby).... I apologize to the individual who I forgot to get in the mix, but make sure I let them know that I was fielding an issue that their (GF/mom/pita) was bringing up, and I missed their channel because of it........ makes for an embarassing moment for the PITA, and a happy comical ending for me. Have fun with it........
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Yup, used both of these a time or two (although 90% of complaints I hear come in during the first 4 bars of the first song and I really am working on an issue).
My favorite complaint is when the GF/mom/pita comes up before they even start playing to be 'sure I can get the sound they want'. This is (of course) right after I've gone from a 3pc rock band to a 5pc funk-rock band and just getting back to the board and just after starting to do sound check. I typically check new mic's first (which of course includes the guy who 'everyone' wants to hear), and listen to the compaint while un-muting all the channels and give em a go signal. Of course I forgot the new channel and that fancy sax solo is heard by no-one... including myself who is now working on getting the vocal up over their crappy amps since they didnt check at level in the first place. ..... FF to the end of the night (be sure the GF/mom/pita is nearby).... I apologize to the individual who I forgot to get in the mix, but make sure I let them know that I was fielding an issue that their (GF/mom/pita) was bringing up, and I missed their channel because of it........ makes for an embarassing moment for the PITA, and a happy comical ending for me. Have fun with it........
I've told this story before, but it bears repeating:
I used to have a flashing LED which would mount on a 9V battery. I'd set it on the FOH rack above a sign that said, "Please do not speak to the engineer when the red light is flashing."
It really worked. Honestly.
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I've told this story before, but it bears repeating:
I used to have a flashing LED which would mount on a 9V battery. I'd set it on the FOH rack above a sign that said, "Please do not speak to the engineer when the red light is flashing."
It really worked. Honestly.
was that back in the days when most event goers could read?