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Title: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: John Halliburton on October 23, 2012, 09:06:01 PM
I've been wanting/suggesting that someone should do this since I first heard about the Jericho.

Labor savings, less truck needs, great sound...and articulation at distance, along with almost no degradation due to wind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkrZplo9xgM&feature=youtu.be

Best regards,

John
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: paul bell on October 23, 2012, 09:50:33 PM
I can't wait to hear these things. The spec sheet says it'll do 148db continuous. It also says " sensitivity
band dependent". Are there graphs for it available? Does it operate without subs?
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: John Halliburton on October 23, 2012, 10:14:10 PM
I can't wait to hear these things. The spec sheet says it'll do 148db continuous. It also says " sensitivity
band dependent". Are there graphs for it available? Does it operate without subs?

Hopefully Ivan or Tom will answer-I do know with six 18" drivers horn loaded as part of the whole cabinet design, they do very well on their own.  I suspect for rock concerts, extra subs would be desired. 

After seeing that video for the first time, just the advantage of full bandwidth directivety vs. the sheer number of mics on that orchestra is just impressive.

Rolling a pair of those off a truck compared to a couple of dozen line array cabinets(and the time to link those all up at the correct settings from the prediction software for the venue) just makes a ton more sense/cents to me.

Best regards,

John
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on October 23, 2012, 10:19:17 PM
For those wishing a quick peek at the specs:

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/loud-speakers/jericho/jh-90/

At 720 lbs/cabinet I'd want to be able to back the truck right up under the lifts.
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: John Halliburton on October 23, 2012, 10:33:23 PM
For those wishing a quick peek at the specs:

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/loud-speakers/jericho/jh-90/

At 720 lbs/cabinet I'd want to be able to back the truck right up under the lifts.

Not impossible though.  We've got four Vertec on a fly frame flipped over on a heavy duty dolly that is close to 600lbs.  Rolls right off the truck on a ramp to stage wings.

Best regards,

John
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: Ed Walters on October 23, 2012, 10:56:51 PM
Not impossible though.  We've got four Vertec on a fly frame flipped over on a heavy duty dolly that is close to 600lbs.  Rolls right off the truck on a ramp to stage wings.

Best regards,

John

720 pounds is not all that unreasonable.  How much does a vDOSC weigh? How much did a kf850 weigh?  Or for that matter, a kf550? I used to load those in and out of a van (not a truck, no gate or ramp) by myself, alone. Hell, with a band, we carried them up two flights of stairs, and back down. So with  a crew, and a proper dolly, the only thing intimidating about them is their cost....

Ed Walters
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: paul bell on October 23, 2012, 11:02:16 PM
I've moved around a few McCauley 421 subs. 500lbs each, not so bad.
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: brian maddox on October 23, 2012, 11:21:57 PM
our mic stand case weighed 1600 pounds in a 45 X 30.  700 and change is nothing...
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: Tim Weaver on October 24, 2012, 01:11:07 AM
The Jwhatever they had at WFX sounded great by itself, and would be usable for classical or jazz standalone. It would not work for modern stuff without a sub though.

When they paired it with the TH812 they brought, now THAT was a proper PA! I would love to have a pair of each for my shows.
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 24, 2012, 08:07:33 AM
Hopefully Ivan or Tom will answer-I do know with six 18" drivers horn loaded as part of the whole cabinet design, they do very well on their own.  I suspect for rock concerts, extra subs would be desired. 


The use of subs has the old question of "how low do you REALLY need to go?"

I have done outdoor concerts with the J1's with no subs.  The "heaviest" gig had a 80's cover metal band.  We used just a single J1 per side-no subs.  We used 2 lab gruppen 10K amps per cabinet.  The lows were a bit underpowered with those amps-but it works well-even outdoors.

There was nothing lacking from the sound.  Plenty of pounding kick. 

Heck- I could have done just about any of the metal gigs I did (back in the day-the actual 80's metal) with those cabinets and been just fine-actually very good :).

Yes there are 6 high power 18" drivers in each cabinet-but they are also loaded on a large horn.  The low freq output can be quite stunning.

I would argue that most types of music would be fine if you had cabinets that were truly flat to 45Hz.

The idea that you "automatically need" subs-is based on the fact that few cabinets (many subs included) are already rolling off by 45Hz (despite what the specs say).

Without sounding "salesmanish", without a doubt I feel the J1 is Danleys most "fun" cabinet.  Whatever the "it" is-in terms of slam-punch-impact (you get the idea) the J1 has "it".

Truly a fun cabinet to listen to-mix on etc.  Huge dynamic range is a truly fun thing.  Just turn it up and go.
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 24, 2012, 08:09:18 AM
I've been wanting/suggesting that someone should do this since I first heard about the Jericho.

Labor savings, less truck needs, great sound...and articulation at distance, along with almost no degradation due to wind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkrZplo9xgM&feature=youtu.be

Best regards,

John
Apparently there is an error on the comments-in the old system cabinet count.

Apparently last year they used a total of 60 cabinets (including subs) for the job.  This year just 2-total.
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: Scott Carneval on October 24, 2012, 11:11:49 AM
I had the privledge of visiting the Danley shop for a demo last time I was in Atlanta.  The Jehrico series was VERY impressive.  They truely do sound like studio monitors.  The room we were in couldn't have been bigger than 20x40, and even a mere few feet from the cabinets all of the drivers blended together seamlessly. 

The TH812 was a beast, but the real beast was the semi-trailer/big MFin subwoofer out back.  Something like 40 12" drivers if I recall correctly...
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: Jordan Wolf on October 24, 2012, 11:27:10 AM
...The TH812 was a beast, but the real beast was the semi-trailer/big MFin subwoofer out back.  Something like 40 12" drivers if I recall correctly...
Lol, if you haven't already, check this out (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zbf3bzpgml8).  Yeah, it's a big one, for sure...
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 24, 2012, 11:40:43 AM
, but the real beast was the semi-trailer/big MFin subwoofer out back.  Something like 40 12" drivers if I recall correctly...
It has 40 15" drivers-each with its own 1000 watt amp that are housed 4 per chassis.  So 10 "amps" that are 4x1000 watt each.
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: Mike Christy on October 24, 2012, 11:53:51 AM
It has 40 15" drivers-each with its own 1000 watt amp that are housed 4 per chassis.  So 10 "amps" that are 4x1000 watt each.

Come on Ivan, you are always preaching that its not watts, its all about sensitivity, at a specific frequency, for a period of time, depending on the material!  ;D
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: John Chiara on October 24, 2012, 12:41:08 PM
So does Danley rent out a DJ system... Say, 2 J1's and a Matterhorn?
Should be great for outdoor raves and such.
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: Scott Carneval on October 24, 2012, 12:41:32 PM
Come on Ivan, you are always preaching that its not watts, its all about sensitivity, at a specific frequency, for a period of time, depending on the material!  ;D

For what it's worth, when Mike demo'd it for me it was all ran off a single extension cord and a standard 20amp outlet, so they weren't getting anywhere close to 40kw
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 24, 2012, 04:01:40 PM
Come on Ivan, you are always preaching that its not watts, its all about sensitivity, at a specific frequency, for a period of time, depending on the material!  ;D
Agreed.  And that particular product was designed to be run 24/7 with a warble tone between 15 and 20Hz.

So Tom designed it to have an impedance peak at 17Hz.  So the heating of the drivers would be less-and the excursion would be less-in the range of primary interest.

Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: Mark McFarlane on October 24, 2012, 06:21:05 PM
Agreed.  And that particular product was designed to be run 24/7 with a warble tone between 15 and 20Hz.

So Tom designed it to have an impedance peak at 17Hz.  So the heating of the drivers would be less-and the excursion would be less-in the range of primary interest.

psy-ops.
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: Frederik Rosenkjær on October 24, 2012, 07:00:12 PM
Hopefully Ivan or Tom will answer-I do know with six 18" drivers horn loaded as part of the whole cabinet design, they do very well on their own.  I suspect for rock concerts, extra subs would be desired. 

I'm a Danley dealer and I helped getting the boxes for this concert. I also functioned as system tech. and took the pictures and compiled the video.

FOH was about 70 meters out and in my opinion any regular pop/rock concert for ordinary folks could be handled with no problem without subs out to the distance. For "rock-rock" and metal, and of course electronic music subs would probably be a good idea.

On this particular gig we were powering with LAB fp4000 amps so the woofers were getting up to 2300 (IIRC) watts each - about 1000W less than they can take. At the very loudest parts of this concert, we just saw the -5dB leds on the sub channels light up on peaks, but normally it was only tickling the -10dB ones on bass drum hits.

Rolling a pair of those off a truck compared to a couple of dozen line array cabinets(and the time to link those all up at the correct settings from the prediction software for the venue) just makes a ton more sense/cents to me.

It took me about 1.5 - 2 hours to get the entire system up, using two stage hands for about 15 minutes. Last year they had one guy and two stage hands working on it for an entire day.
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: Tim Weaver on October 24, 2012, 10:00:27 PM
I didn't have a problem with the low-end output of the J1. It was more the "quality" of the bass. I don't really know how to describe it, but I really, REALLY liked the 812's character more than the J1.

Of course, like has been mentioned, I was astonished at how close you could get to the box and it still sounded cohesive. The way that box assembles audio from the different drivers is really amazing.
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 25, 2012, 07:17:05 AM
I didn't have a problem with the low-end output of the J1. It was more the "quality" of the bass. I don't really know how to describe it, but I really, REALLY liked the 812's character more than the J1.

Of course, like has been mentioned, I was astonished at how close you could get to the box and it still sounded cohesive. The way that box assembles audio from the different drivers is really amazing.
OF course the TH812 goes a full octave lower than the J1.

So depending on the material played, there will be a huge difference in the overall sound and perception.

Hearing that extension adds a whole new dimension to the music.
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: Lee Brenkman on October 25, 2012, 12:35:12 PM
The use of subs has the old question of "how low do you REALLY need to go?"

I would argue that most types of music would be fine if you had cabinets that were truly flat to 45Hz.

Truly a fun cabinet to listen to-mix on etc.  Huge dynamic range is a truly fun thing.

I would go so far as to say that outside of Reggae and Electronica/Rave/Dance/Superstar DJ performances subs are quite often used as an "effect" and more often than not used to detriment of the actual music in my opinion.

Most recently a "Roots/Americana" folk rock band in a 300 capacity venue in San Francisco.  The drummer had a big old 24 inch bass drum and the FOH mixer was making sure that the "bloom" from that sucker was rattling the skeletons of the people in the audience. 

It did NOTHING to enhance the overall enjoyment of the music.

Another show damaged by the cult of the "killer kick drum"  >:(
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: John Chiara on October 25, 2012, 02:13:19 PM
I would go so far as to say that outside of Reggae and Electronica/Rave/Dance/Superstar DJ performances subs are quite often used as an "effect" and more often than not used to detriment of the actual music in my opinion.

Most recently a "Roots/Americana" folk rock band in a 300 capacity venue in San Francisco.  The drummer had a big old 24 inch bass drum and the FOH mixer was making sure that the "bloom" from that sucker was rattling the skeletons of the people in the audience. 

It did NOTHING to enhance the overall enjoyment of the music.

Another show damaged by the cult of the "killer kick drum"  >:(

Another perspective on this. The venue I owned ended up with 4 Danley TH 215's... Giving me really good response down to 25hz. With that kind of extension old big Ludwig kicks for example, took on a whole different feel as the system high pass was lowered. I usually ran it around 40 for visiting BE's and varied it when I was mixing. I think it many times is a matter of less that stellar bass management by the engineers. Having that extension means you have to really practice and get a solid reference so that whatever you do is musical and not distracting. Biggest mistake I saw was BE's not high passing the bass sufficiently. You get an active 5-6 string bass running full range with that kind of extension and it turns ugly fast.
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 25, 2012, 02:25:35 PM
I would go so far as to say that outside of Reggae and Electronica/Rave/Dance/Superstar DJ performances subs are quite often used as an "effect" and more often than not used to detriment of the actual music in my opinion.

Most recently a "Roots/Americana" folk rock band in a 300 capacity venue in San Francisco.  The drummer had a big old 24 inch bass drum and the FOH mixer was making sure that the "bloom" from that sucker was rattling the skeletons of the people in the audience. 

It did NOTHING to enhance the overall enjoyment of the music.

Another show damaged by the cult of the "killer kick drum"  >:(
Look at it a different way.  Take a standard marching band.  The large bass drum is not so much heard as it is felt.  It is there to lay a foundation to the sound.

People who try to make that kind of an instrument a "lead" instrument-are-as you say-ruining the music.  But they probably don't know better or have heard real music.

BTW-Do you know was the highest paid musician in John Phillip Sousa's band?  The bass drum player.  He provided the time and foundation for the rest of the band.  It needed to be RIGHT.  I did not say loud.

I totally agree that many mixes are ruined by one instrument simply being way to loud.

However without knowing the whole story-it could be that if the sound guy didn't run the drum that loud, he would be fired-maybe that is what the band "wanted" not realizing what it did to their music.  Or maybe that is ACTUALLY what they wanted.

As the saying goes-"there's no accounting for taste".
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on October 25, 2012, 03:47:12 PM
I would go so far as to say that outside of Reggae and Electronica/Rave/Dance/Superstar DJ performances subs are quite often used as an "effect" and more often than not used to detriment of the actual music in my opinion.

True 'nuff. 

I would suggest, however, that having the LF extension really does help the rest of the sound spectrum from the bottom up.  The overtones and sweet harmonics in the upper frequencies IMO benefit from a solid foundation.

This calls, of course, for JUDICIOUS MANAGEMENT of the LF content fed to the subs.  I'm not talking rock and the like, but music which is better reinforced than amplified.  This also implies a full-range system and probably rules out aux-fed subs, or at least calls for more JM as stated above.

Karl, are you out there?

Of course,
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: Lee Brenkman on October 26, 2012, 12:28:07 AM
True 'nuff. 

I would suggest, however, that having the LF extension really does help the rest of the sound spectrum from the bottom up.  The overtones and sweet harmonics in the upper frequencies IMO benefit from a solid foundation.

This calls, of course, for JUDICIOUS MANAGEMENT of the LF content fed to the subs.  I'm not talking rock and the like, but music which is better reinforced than amplified.  This also implies a full-range system and probably rules out aux-fed subs, or at least calls for more JM as stated above.

Karl, are you out there?

Of course,

Judicious management requires some technical and musical knowledge.  A couple of generations of band mixers and audiences have been convinced that "more kick" is the cure to all that is otherwise boring and uninteresting in the band's music.

In the case I cited the stringed instruments and vocals were "the thing" and the low bass extension of that big bass drum would have enhanced the overall musical experience if it hadn't been treated as "the single most important instrument in contemporary music"  as witnessed by the endless "what is the best mic" and "how do i get a better kick sound" questions.

I've been tired of this for over a decade now.

-gramps


Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: Matt Long on October 26, 2012, 02:04:55 PM
Does it operate without subs?
I do sound for very bass centric music events here in San Francisco. I had the pleasure of hearing the J1 demoed at a large local night club. Their system uses about 30 sealed 18" for LF and has four corner multiway mains. Subjectively speaking, one J1 placed on the stage, with no subs, STOMPED their entire system hands down. That seemed to be the general consensus at least. I wonder how many people have heard the J1 with "room gain"   :D
J1's over TH812s in all but the largest venues would be devastating!(in a good way).
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: Jeffhtg (Jeff Kenney) on October 26, 2012, 07:22:50 PM
What sort of average SPL were you hitting at FOH?
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: Scott Carneval on October 27, 2012, 11:56:18 AM
Ivan,

Maybe you can help me with this comparison. According to the published specs, the TH812 is rated at 154db peak. In comparison, the JBL SRX728 (by no means a competitor to the Danley box, but a reference most people are familiar with) is rated at 136db peak. Ignoring any differences in measurement or calculation techniques (marketing hype) and just taking the published specs at face value, it appears that it would require 64 SRX728 boxes to equal the 154db rating of 1 TH812. That just seems insane!

Is my math correct?  I understand it to be that you would expect a theoretical 3db increase every time you double the number of cabinets. So two cabinets would net 139db, 4 cabs would net 142db, 8 cabs for 145db, 16 cabs for 148db, 32 cabs for 151db, and 64 cabs for 154db.  But wouldn't that 3db theory begin to lose steam as the array got larger?  To gain a true 3db the drivers must occupy the same space. Even an 8x8 array would have some drivers over 1/4 wavelength apart. It doesn't seem practical or economical to even attempt to run that many cabinets.
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: Greg_Cameron on October 27, 2012, 12:38:22 PM
I understand it to be that you would expect a theoretical 3db increase every time you double the number of cabinets.

I believe it's a 3dB increase doubling cabinets with the same power dissipated. e.g. 2x 15" subs consuming 100W will be 3dB louder than a single of the same sub consuming 100W. Since when you actually double up cabinets, you're able to consume 2x the power (double the current draw when connected to the same amp or adding an additional amp to power the box), you actually increase total output by 6dB for every doubling of subs, not 3dB. So in theory you would need 8 SRX subs to match 1 TH812. But then the are other qualifiers such as, at what frequency?, etc...
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 28, 2012, 12:08:11 PM
Ivan,

Maybe you can help me with this comparison. According to the published specs, the TH812 is rated at 154db peak. In comparison, the JBL SRX728 (by no means a competitor to the Danley box, but a reference most people are familiar with) is rated at 136db peak. Ignoring any differences in measurement or calculation techniques (marketing hype) and just taking the published specs at face value, it appears that it would require 64 SRX728 boxes to equal the 154db rating of 1 TH812. That just seems insane!

Is my math correct?  I understand it to be that you would expect a theoretical 3db increase every time you double the number of cabinets. So two cabinets would net 139db, 4 cabs would net 142db, 8 cabs for 145db, 16 cabs for 148db, 32 cabs for 151db, and 64 cabs for 154db.  But wouldn't that 3db theory begin to lose steam as the array got larger?  To gain a true 3db the drivers must occupy the same space. Even an 8x8 array would have some drivers over 1/4 wavelength apart. It doesn't seem practical or economical to even attempt to run that many cabinets.
Greg is correct-you gain output (due to higher radiation resistance-ie coupling=3dB)-along with power capacity (3dB) results in a 6 dB addition-when doubling the cabinets and the power are both used.  Either one by itself is 3dB.

So if all you look at are the "simple numbers" (Which is not the correct way to do it), then yes, it would be 8:1.  Don't forget about the amps needed when looking at 'totals".

HOWEVER since the "simple numbers" don't come close to defining what the ACTUAL performance/response of the cabinets are-then you MUST look at the measure responses to get a better idea of how they actually compare.

Since the TH812 goes quite a bit lower in freq (as measured-not the simple numbers) ( and the "simple numbers" are taken at the higher end of the response range), at the lower freq, the ratio of cabinets is much larger.

So what SHOULD be happening-is that one looks at the measured response graphs at the lowest freq they are interested in-and then does the math.  But if 70-90 Hz is the low freq of interest-then the simple numbers will work.

You also have to look at other factors-when figuring out coupling.  For example-up close to a large array-the physical size will put some cabinets further away than others-resulting in not as much addition as the "math" would suggest.

However at a distance-the difference between the different elements in an array will be much less (to the further listener).  This is part of the way a line array "works".  Not so much the sound falls off at a slower rate-but rather that as you get closer the cancellations produced by the cabinets-and the lack of "theoretical summation" produces LESS spl. 

As usual-the REAL answer is a bit more complicated.  A simple answer results in a wrong assumption.

Sometimes you have to dig a bit deeper.
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on October 28, 2012, 01:34:55 PM
I'm an unapologetic fanboy for Danley, and one thing that struck me from a recent write-up about a large stadium install was that the speakers were so high fidelity that the stadium was forced to upgrade their program source after hearing it play back through good speakers.

This seems like a good problem to have for a huge stadium.

JR

Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on October 28, 2012, 01:35:59 PM
I'm an unapologetic fanboy for Danley, and one thing that struck me from a recent write-up about a large stadium install was that the speakers were so high fidelity that the stadium was forced to upgrade their program source after hearing it play back through good speakers.

This seems like a good problem to have for a huge stadium.

JR

Now to work on the program content.......
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: Lee Brenkman on October 29, 2012, 12:22:07 AM
Now to work on the program content.......

 :)
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 29, 2012, 07:36:05 PM
Now to work on the program content.......
One thing that I have noticed over the years is that as my systems got better and better-there was less and less material I wanted to hear through them-especially at high levels.

A good quality system (ie one that is a good reproducer of what goes into it) is a double edged sword.

With a bad source (be it recorded or live), it will sound WORSE through a good quality system-due to the fact that the good system allows you to hear all the defects in the source.

HOWEVER-with a good source-it can sound quite amazing.

Just like how HD TV and large screens started showing off all the flaws in peoples faces.   Lessor definitions just "covered up" the imperfections.
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: Keith Erickson on October 30, 2012, 01:50:54 PM
Just a note, the 136db max SPL for the 728s is a free space measurement.  According to the spec sheet the 812 is measured in 1/2 space.  Measuring the 728 under the same conditions you get a max SPL of 142db so a block of 4 728s equally powered would have a max SPL of 154db.

Still the 812 is a beast!!!

Ivan,

Maybe you can help me with this comparison. According to the published specs, the TH812 is rated at 154db peak. In comparison, the JBL SRX728 (by no means a competitor to the Danley box, but a reference most people are familiar with) is rated at 136db peak. Ignoring any differences in measurement or calculation techniques (marketing hype) and just taking the published specs at face value, it appears that it would require 64 SRX728 boxes to equal the 154db rating of 1 TH812. That just seems insane!

Is my math correct?  I understand it to be that you would expect a theoretical 3db increase every time you double the number of cabinets. So two cabinets would net 139db, 4 cabs would net 142db, 8 cabs for 145db, 16 cabs for 148db, 32 cabs for 151db, and 64 cabs for 154db.  But wouldn't that 3db theory begin to lose steam as the array got larger?  To gain a true 3db the drivers must occupy the same space. Even an 8x8 array would have some drivers over 1/4 wavelength apart. It doesn't seem practical or economical to even attempt to run that many cabinets.
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: Tom Danley on October 31, 2012, 12:45:19 PM
Hi All
Fwiw, on the origin Jericho horn, I mean in more recent times like the last few years, some genuine credit is due for it’s existence to two of the LAB folks.
     
A few years ago at Infocomm trade show, both Doug Fowler and Craig Leerman both suggested we try to make a larger Synergy horn, large enough so that you could use one per side in a decent size live show.     
The next year at the same trade show we had a working prototype Mike noticed the door in the demo room opened to a large parking lot and he arranged an impromptu demo in the parking lot at the end of that   day.   
While building security closed it down, a few important people were there and it was enough to get them specified into two sports stadium jobs and that lit the fuse.   

At the first installation, the designer wanted a lot of subs, like 16X TH812’s or something.   Mike talked him down and the designer was hesitant but willing to try 6 which is what I heard when I was out there.    6 can easily shake the far side of a 70,000 seat football stadium .

I am not sure if comparing a 2X18 to a TH-812 is fair as they are very different beasts intended for different uses.   For one thing, the TH812 having a low frequency “knee” nearly an octave lower and not having a tilted frequency response would make them sound VERY different subjectively.

Also, since “peak output” is most likely to be the least accurate spec, I am not sure that focusing on one number is very useful either .
       
Unless one actually measures, one has no idea where one runs out of linearity relative to it’s thermal capacity, in other words, at what fraction of rated power does the device become unlistenable / unusable  and at what frequency?

Keith posted something I have heard before about measuring in full space.   
Without a crane or silent helicopter, this is a rather hard condition to achieve for a subwoofer.   
In fact, while they don’t say what space it is on the pdf on line, if you model the two drivers in that 2X18 in a box that size, you find they published an honest HALF space measurement.         If you model that system, like any system, you can see at what power you would run out of Xmax, how the port choking nonlinearity rolls off the low end with increasing levels .

When a company is forthright enough to publish a measured 1W 1M response curve, then one can go a step farther than a one number comparison by examining the systems sensitivity vs frequency, for example, it’s sensitivity at 30,40,50, 60 Hz etc.
 
Our curves are usually taken at 10 meters and at 28.3Vrms which into an 8 Ohm load, produces a conservative 1W1M equivalent even for “big” cabinets.  For a 4Ohm nominal cabinet like 812, one has to subtract 3dB to get the 1w1m loudspeaker rating.
A quick eyeball off the TH812 data sheet and accounting for the load shows the 1w1m sensitivity to be;

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/danley/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/TH812-spec-sheet.pdf

About 105dB at 30Hz
About 107dB at 40Hz
About 107dB at 50Hz
About 108dB at 70Hz
Perfect world Max Level at rated power, 39dB over 1W, calculated peak +45dB over 1W

From a dual 18 vented box spec sheet, 1w 1m sensitivity
About 92dB at 30Hz
About 96dB at 40Hz
About 97dB at 50Hz
About 97dB at 70Hz
Perfect world Max Level at rated power,  +32 over 1W, calculated peak +38dB over 1W.
Peak levels based on a noise signal which has a peak to average ratio of 6dB, thus peaks are +6dB greater than an average.

If one could also drive both systems at  rated power at all frequencies in question and had no power compression, the difference between the two would be;
About 20dB at 30Hz (100X)
About 18dB at 40Hz
About 17dB at 50Hz
About 18dB at 70Hz

Now, obviously on paper one can make up 18 dB by having 8 subs and 8x the power instead of one but then you run into the problem that dominates live sound speakers, the sources  interfere with each other, even can partially cancel each other out. 
   
With a “line array”, to the degree the sound actually falls off more slowly than an omni point source, it is because the individual sources increasingly cancel each other out in the near field in a complex interference pattern as you move closer to the system. 
Two or more sources can add coherently into one new source like two subwoofers can IF they are close together BUT this only happens when the sources are close enough together, about a quarter wavelength or less apart.   
Coherent summation sounds simple but even at low frequencies, it is hard to place direct radiating drivers that close together to avoid an interference pattern, consider that to add coherently at 100Hz, the sources can’t be any farther than about 33 inches apart so for a 50Hz high cutoff, the subwoofer radiators need to me within a 5 foot circle.     
For those interested in playing around with what happens with “where the sound goes” when you array woofers or sources etc,   there is a free modeling program you can download called DDT which is fast, powerful and fun and Doug Jones has made a couple some “how to” videos also on the company website.   It’s a work in progress and Doug keeps adding features and doodads but it’s already proven useful.

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/support/ddt-files/

AS one might picture a wall of subwoofers produces a wall of sound but it also is an array of individual sources which are not adding coherently but partially canceling each other out in an interference pattern.  That array produces many time arrivals at the listener when fed a single impulse and has frequency dependant directivity and if the array is large enough it’s response also changes with location even outdoors (where there are no room effects)..   
         
The sort of “purest” approach I have taken is that if you feed the sound system a single impulse, that single impulse is all you should hear / measure no matter how powerful or large it is.    The more strong individual arrivals there are (all other things being equal),  the poorer the “fidelity”, the more complex the interference pattern, the more obvious it is when the wind blows etc).   It is not like aligning a bank of spotlights for even illumination, it is more like projecting a single  image with several projectors.   
Anyway, the point is that once you have enough sources, even subwoofers, they don’t add per the simple assumption, you are radiating an interference pattern comprised of lobes and nulls and spreading out impulsive events in time.
 
Part B of the interference pattern is a strong factor in commercial sound indoors, you do not want the sound projected to the sides, behind , above or below the speaker system.  One might think a large array has a lot of directivity, but in reality, one can make a large horn system that sprays / wastes  less sound in the wrong or counterproductive directions  by avoiding an interference pattern.  Doug wrote a White paper  that covers that part of it;

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/danley/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/line-array-paper.pdf

Not radiating an interference pattern is very audible too or maybe more importantly is audible as that is what brought in all the stadium work.
If you have Face book and headphones on your computer, go to the company facebook page, hit " recent posts by others" and scroll down to “Mike posted a video” on July 31. 
http://www.facebook.com/DanleySoundLabs?ref=ts

If I remember right, that stadium has 4 or 6 TH812’s and a couple Jericho horns, the speakers are in the two score boards, the video taken at the far end (like 750 feet away from the speakers).     The sound level is within + - 1 or 2 dB (depending which meter you looked at) and to the ear, sounds the same everywhere over the seating area, no comb filtering and very little effect from crosswind..   The coolest part other than the difference in sound quality I think is when all the sources add coherently into a single source in time and space and avoid an interference pattern and you confine the sound to the desired pattern, it takes far fewer drivers, amps, DSP, EQ  and everything else to do a given size audience plane and SPL.
Best,
Tom Danley

Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: John Livings on October 31, 2012, 08:59:10 PM
"It is not like aligning a bank of spotlights for even illumination, it is more like projecting a single  image with several projectors."

We will start using that "parallel", a very simple way to think of things, Thanks.

Regards,  John
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: Mark McFarlane on November 01, 2012, 01:40:31 AM
"It is not like aligning a bank of spotlights for even illumination, it is more like projecting a single  image with several projectors."

We will start using that "parallel", a very simple way to think of things, Thanks.

Regards,  John

FWIW, modern high-end projectors and lenses can perform many different image corrections that make combining projectors not as difficult as it may seem.  We run multi-projector visualization systems (2D and 3D caves) where each projector gets its own part of the image to display.  These systems work extremely well (seamless), although it takes a bit of maintenance to keep alignment, color and contrast consistent.  This could be considered a video 'line array' analogy where each projector has its own intended coverage area.

This near-perfect 'pattern control' of light is a bit more difficult to achieve with audio using speakers across the audible spectrum.

... or perhaps the intended analogy was multiple projectors projecting the same parts of an image which I think is a more difficult problem.  The video frame rate is so slow compared to the speed of light that what we would call 'comb filtering' due to arrival time differences would result in negligible motion blur in 24 or 30 fps video.  However, the problem of different physical light source locations is perhaps harder to solve in terms of spatial resolution (image sharpness), particularly for a still image. 

OK, over analyzed,...
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: John Halliburton on November 01, 2012, 09:16:33 AM
OK, over analyzed,...

Perhaps, but it is still a good analogy.

Tom, those output/efficiency comparisons for vented vs. tapped horn subs are nothing short of astounding....as usual.

Best regards,

John
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: Tom Danley on November 01, 2012, 11:56:27 AM
Hi All
Hi Mark
The optic analogy is good because both sound and light are and act like “waves” but also not so good because the wavelengths are SO tremendously different in size.

If you put a couple SH-50’s or SM-60’s hard packed and play music, you do not hear a seam as you transition from the coverage of one cabinet to the next one.   
This would be most like the multiple projectors each covering a segment of the entire image. The upshot is you’re never in the coverage of more than one loudspeaker.
This requires each source to have a lot of pattern control, to have a points of origins close together. 

Most line arrays on the other hand are an array individual sources and each is much too small to actually confine the radiation angle each box is assumed to provide. 
The problem is, if you wish to halve the radiation angle for a given frequency, you need to double the dimension. The presumption that line arrays are individually narrow segments of an arc ac be seen to be true or not when you measure the vertical pattern a single enclosure. 
As generally they interfere severely, if you lay a typical line array on it’s side so that you can walk the vertical pattern, you will hear it is not seamless and often very far from it.   
This is most like projectors significantly overlapping and producing something like a Moiré pattern but with sound and so if the wind blows a little, you hear that interference pattern very clearly and if you move around and measure, the response is different everywhere.. 


Hi John
Thanks,  It isn’t a fair comparison though because the TH-812 is so large but put a pair together  with the mouths coupling and that is some sick bass with directivity.      I probably won’t be getting one for home use but if there is one around to hear I will let you know.   8X 4 inch voice coils is a lot of motor in a horn haha.

A fellow that came to the first outdoor demo of the J-3 and TH-812 last winter was drawn like a moth to a flame to the TH-812 which overloaded his camcorder microphone.   I saw him walking around with like an iphone on a handle but was impressed by the quality of his video and audio when I saw it later.       
This was pretty loud, you can adjust the headphone volume to scale the voice when Mike walks up and talks to the guy holding the camera.  Most of the attendees were stadium sound related people and rep’s  and at 2min + he pans away from the system and you can see we were out in the field about 150-400 yds out.   
 Later in the day, Mike did another demo “loud” and a couple cars of people drove off to hear it from a couple thousand feet away.  When we got back, the Cops had arrived for a second time and were not happy (being rousted from a restaurant).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MOG_sPejGA

The J3 is smaller and lighter than a J1 but has more directivity (one giant horn), is array able,  has a more powerful upper section but less powerful sub section assuming there will be subs used with them.
I hadn’t noticed it yesterday but there is a link to that stadium using J-3’s and TH-812’s I linked the video to right here;

http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/complete_coverage_implementing_a_new_system_at_80000-seat_spartan_stadium/

And a video from the School;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWtADec3abc

Best,
Tom
http://www.facebook.com/DanleySoundLabs?ref=ts



Quote from: John Halliburton link=topic=140579.msg13044


30#msg1304430 date=1351775793
Perhaps, but it is still a good analogy.

Tom, those output/efficiency comparisons for vented vs. tapped horn subs are nothing short of astounding....as usual.

Best regards,

John
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: Art Welter on November 02, 2012, 02:06:45 PM
Just a note, the 136db max SPL for the 728s is a free space measurement.  According to the spec sheet the 812 is measured in 1/2 space.  Measuring the 728 under the same conditions you get a max SPL of 142db so a block of 4 728s equally powered would have a max SPL of 154db.
Keith,
The JBL SRX 728 is measured in half space.
The issue of 1/2 vs. whole has been discussed previously, but to refresh, there are several charts here:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?11346-2268H

that clearly show the 2268 in an 8 cubic foot sealed box in half space, on the JBL  8400 building roof. The sensitivity above 70 Hz is clearly around 96 dB, just as on the SRX718 charts.

I have also confirmed it with my own measurements, as have many others here on PSW.

JBL's 136 dB max SPL does not include power compression, or exceeding Xmax, the linear operation limit. Above Xmax, distortion rises rapidly, and will exceed 100% if the 728 is pushed at rated power at the lower frequency range it is rated for.
136 dB would be at the upper end of the 728's response, where it's sensitivity is over 6 dB higher than the lower frequency rating.

JBL has in error published the Xlim rating for the 2268H woofer used in the 718 and 728 in place of  the Xmax rating, more than double it's actual Xmax of 8mm.
An 8mm Xmax was considered "long throw" when the 2268H was designed, not so much today.

DSL is using drivers with Xmax of 11 to 15mm, a doubling of Xmax allows for 6 dB more SPL per cone.
A properly designed tapped horn can increase sensitivity (in a larger cabinet) by around 6 dB over a bass reflex cabinet with the same low frequency corner.

While I have voiced some doubts regarding certain DSL TH sensitivity specifications, I have no doubt that on a cone per cone basis, comparing the B&C18SW115 in a properly designed TH compared to a JBL 2268H in a BR, the TH will have on the order of 10 dB more ultimate SPL capability when reaching Xmax.


Art Welter

Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: Tom Danley on November 09, 2012, 02:35:44 PM
Hi All
Fwiw, for those in the Atlanta area and curious about hearing the speakers above with live music and not in a sports stadium,  Evan Kirkendall will be using 1 J-3 and 1 TH-812 per side for the All Time Low show next week.       
This will be at the Masquerade club  in Atlanta on 11-13-2012.     
Evan says come one come all (but tickets are going fast).
Best,
Tom
Title: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: Teddy Murphy on November 11, 2012, 08:58:40 PM
I would love to come hear them, but I have a load in early the next morning up here in WV.  Someone needs to demo them somewhere up this direction.
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on November 12, 2012, 10:50:27 AM
I would love to come hear them, but I have a load in early the next morning up here in WV.  Someone needs to demo them somewhere up this direction.

Maybe they can just point a pair towards WV, and turn them up a little.  8)

JR
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: Ivan Beaver on November 12, 2012, 01:18:08 PM
Maybe they can just point a pair towards WV, and turn them up a little.  8)

JR
That would require the J5-which we won't discuss for a few more months. ;)
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: Henry Cohen on November 12, 2012, 01:59:38 PM
That would require the J5-which we won't discuss for a few more months. ;)

When they are released, maybe these guys (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqvYNlUIx8Q) would be interested in a few [dozen].
Title: Re: Danley Jericho for large scale concert
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on November 12, 2012, 02:03:58 PM
When they are released, maybe these guys (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqvYNlUIx8Q) would be interested in a few [dozen].

Now maybe than flying them they could simply be deployed with an SEP field........