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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Richard Turner on April 22, 2014, 12:45:40 PM
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I've been looking over the forums and I havent come across a single compiled list of what is currently offered by manufacurers, compared and contrasted in a single thread with street price discussed. I'd like you to help do that here.
Please not a discussion thread beyond the console capabilities and features, why its a winner so no brand bashnig. How long has it been out and how long it will be generally supported? eg.
LS9-32 has been on the market since late 2006 and has ben adopted as a somewhat standard piece, how many more years does it have. No one wants to be the last guy to buy in if the next shiney thing will be the one that takes off right out of the box.
AVID SC48 is a great piece if one was going to use the built in recording studio. Is it a waste just to use for a live show and conference desk?
I'm looking at the moment for something in the 32 channel class, lkely 32 channel on 16 fader minimum 12 aux/group whatever the term is for digital land. Looking to narrow it down to less than 4 to choose from based on either not being capable enough or being out of the price range for expected returns.
Yamaha LS9-32
Yamaha M7CL
Yamaha CL1
Yamaha CL5
Yamaha QL5
Behringer X32 full size
AVID S3L
AVID SC48 full size
AVID SC48 profile based system
Allen Heath QU24
Allen Heath QU16
Allen Heath GLD80
Allen Heath iLive
Allen Heath iLive T
Presonus 24.4.2AI
Presonus 32.4.2AI
From Soundcraft:
Si Performer 1/2/3
Si Expression 1/2/3
Vi1/2
Vi3000
Allen Heath
QU-16/24
GLD-80
GLD-112
iLive / iLive T
Midas
M32
Pro1/2/3
Digico
SD11/9
Roland
V-mixer series
Tascam DM-3200
Tascam DM-4800
What else is on offer these days in the main stream. I'm not interested in anything boutique or small run stuff. but I guess its still me mulling over going with the adequate end of the market or dropping a ton more $$$ for all the bells and whistles.
edited to add to the list...again.., I wasn't even aware of the roland systems until now. Is there any market penetration on them yet?
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You can narrow it down all day long if you want but you won't get many recommendations until you tell us what the budget is for the new board. Grouping an SC48 with a Presonus, A&H QU, and Behringer board really makes no sense. And you left out Soundcraft's entire line.
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You can narrow it down all day long if you want but you won't get many recommendations until you tell us what the budget is for the new board. Grouping an SC48 with a Presonus, A&H QU, and Behringer board really makes no sense. And you left out Soundcraft's entire line.
I agree with Bob here.
But if you really want a complete list of consoles with pricing vaguely in LS9 territory, in addition to Soundcraft there is also the A&H GLD (which is A&H's most direct competitor to the LS9, IMO), the lower end of the Midas Pro series, Roland V-mixing series, and I'm sure a bucket load more I'm forgetting.
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You can narrow it down all day long if you want but you won't get many recommendations until you tell us what the budget is for the new board. Grouping an SC48 with a Presonus, A&H QU, and Behringer board really makes no sense. And you left out Soundcraft's entire line.
And also the Midas line.....
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Another consideration is what's popular in your area. Having something completely different than everyone else is using isn't always a benefit, as the learning curve could be problematic when cross renting, or hiring staff on short notice.
Knowing what features you NEED is critical. Creating a feature list of consoles and using that as a comparison when you don't need those features is a wasted exercise. And spec sheets are only part of the tale. On the spec sheets, the Midas M32 and X32 look nearly identical. They point out that it has different pre-amps, and higher quality faders, but that's really the only difference between the units. Is it worth a couple extra grand for you for that feature? It's up to you.
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Excellent, could you both reply with the model numbers and possibly street or MSRP pricing, I'm not really familiar with either soundcraft or A&H lines currently. I'll google and add street prices to my original post when I get home.
I'm still undecided as to where my budget will end up. Its more a matter of what is out there, how much will added capabilities of a higher end board cost me vs how much return for those few gig it is essential to have it for. That will be determined by client needs and booking rates.
It will likely be a matter of : A follow the herd buy an x32 low end, sc48 high end and be done with it or B: end up buying somehthing else that ends up being the only one for 500 miles
I dont see it as any different than weighing options of chevy/ford/dodge/volvo/mercedes/freightliner/sterling for mid size trucks. All would carry a load but do you buy a gasoline engine, or go diesel, does the deisel need DEF, is it running on 16" tires or 19.5s, where an would f450 be bare minimum but maybe a full 3 ton would be a better option.
I would like to explore all options before disregarding any out of hand.
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Are you looking at all the price brackets? If so, also look at sweetwater and see what they have there. No one but yourself can determine what console workflow works best for you.
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These does seem a little wild - what's the point in talking about Avid Profile and the Presonus at the same time? I don't think anyone could possibly consider both products for any particular thing. One is more than 10x the cost of the other.
But in any case.... to continue with this odd list of digital consoles anywhere from zero to infinity...
From Soundcraft:
Si Performer 1/2/3
Si Expression 1/2/3
Vi1/2, Vi3000
Allen Heath
QU-16/24
GLD-80
iLive / iLive T
Midas
M32
Pro1/2/3
Behringer
All various X32 based products...
Digico
SD11/9
Avid
S3L
SC48
Roland
V-mixer series
Yamaha
CL1/3
QL3/5
Google some of this stuff. Edit: narrowed for a qualification I missed in the OP.
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I'm still undecided as to where my budget will end up. Its more a matter of what is out there, how much will added capabilities of a higher end board cost me vs how much return for those few gig it is essential to have it for. That will be determined by client needs and booking rates.
I dont see it as any different than weighing options of chevy/ford/dodge/volvo/mercedes/freightliner/sterling for mid size trucks. All would carry a load but do you buy a gasoline engine, or go diesel, does the deisel need DEF, is it running on 16" tires or 19.5s, where an would f450 be bare minimum but maybe a full 3 ton would be a better option.
Richard, sorry.. but I have to wholeheartedly DISAGREE!!
Why BUY a Mercedes when you can get the job done with a Ford equivalent with no loss of income, less capital outlay and faster/quicker ROI? It makes no economic sense to buy the Merc - if you indeed view it as an income generator.
If you are looking at new consoles then you probably already know what clients need what, what potential clients MIGHT need, what kind of business you are targeting and THUS, what kind of booking rates you are likely to get in your area.
In other words, all of the above should give you some idea of your BUDGET. That will automagically narrow your choices down from an Avid D-show down to a QU24 (or equivalent) or leave you in the D-Show range. In which case you won't need to look at a QU-24.
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And you left out Soundcraft's entire line.
Which is exactly where I would be looking at the moment given Richard's requirements.
Steve.
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I agree. Btw - you talked about the SC48 like its a recording desk. It's not. Most digital desks have similar recording functions built in or available as an option.
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Excellent, could you both reply with the model numbers and possibly street or MSRP pricing, I'm not really familiar with either soundcraft or A&H lines currently. I'll google and add street prices to my original post when I get home.
Have a look through both companies' offerings and decide how many faders and I/O boxes you want. Sweetwater lists prices on both so that should get you in the ballpark for pricing.
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In the requirements the OP should consider if a remote stage box is
A) required or
B) a desired option
And, does he care about the network connection from the desk to stage? MADI, Dante, D-Snake....
Minor topic swerve but...
Speaking of Soundcraft.
I thought I remembered reading that Soundcraft was doing a Dante stage box ( or was that after too much bourbon)?
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Richard, sorry.. but I have to wholeheartedly DISAGREE!!
Why BUY a Mercedes when you can get the job done with a Ford equivalent with no loss of income, less capital outlay and faster/quicker ROI? It makes no economic sense to buy the Merc - if you indeed view it as an income generator.
If you are looking at new consoles then you probably already know what clients need what, what potential clients MIGHT need, what kind of business you are targeting and THUS, what kind of booking rates you are likely to get in your area.
In other words, all of the above should give you some idea of your BUDGET. That will automagically narrow your choices down from an Avid D-show down to a QU24 (or equivalent) or leave you in the D-Show range. In which case you won't need to look at a QU-24.
The bolded text, expanded upon for Richard: if you or your crew are the sole operators of the system/mixer then buy whatever trips your trigger, subject to your ROI expectations; if you supply mixers or systems to be run by Band Engineers or other 3rd parties, you should own whatever they request most often (or reasonable substitutes).
Presuming you know what your clients need/expect/want, it's a matter of finding the product(s) that fit the budget or meet ROI expectations before reaching obsolescence and are hopefully fun to use during their market lifetime.
The other thing that comes to my mind is to not have a primary console that is of significantly lesser or greater stature than the rest of the system. If you've got Macke ThudŽ for speakers there's little point to considering an AVID Venue series or DiGiCo SD.
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Richard,
Pick one.
$3,000 - $10,000
$10,000 - $50,000
$50,000 - $200,000
$200,000 - $500,000
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Richard,
Pick one.
$3,000 - $10,000
$10,000 - $50,000
$50,000 - $200,000
$200,000 - $500,000
probably looking at 2
one in the <10k system price range, cased with snake and possibly another in the sub 40k, again system complete cased with snake system or it could be 2 of the lower end ones or maybe none and I'll just keep on keepin on with the analog stuff thats bough paid for and adequately routes input signal to the outputs.
It used to be that one would buy a piece and it would be reliable, heck theres still a Crest GT 32-8 console here I think original invoice was about 30k cased plus outboard.....in 1995 but would it even get an offer if put up for sale these days? I dont even know if itssale would cover the cost of an ipad
I enjoy this forum but it seems to go off the rails quickly with A level guys and dj guys with 2 peavey sp5 chirping in on the same subjects at the same time. I'm going to go back up to the top and edit my original list and post to add the other brands/ models in and if anyone has something helpful to ad please do.
I think fader count on the console surface, channel count natively,digital snake yes or no,channel count with digital snake system as well as price point would be useable comparison points.
I'm basically out in points beyond, theres 2 sc48 owned locally, one mobile one installed, one M7CL a few small presonus and possibly 2 x32. All save the yamaha which is in a theatre are owned by folks who would see my going digital as a big shot across the bow so I can't see them being overly helpful with a demo or info. I'd be looking at 14-20 hour trip just to go visit a dealers warehouse for a viewing on anything other than presonus or behringer.
I'm in no rush to make a decision but would like to make an informed decision when I do go to make one. I has ASSumed that by posting this in the LAB Lounge it was for things related to mid level operators where anything over $30k on a piece of gear would be regarded as a major purchase.
Also by asking about how long ago the console release date was that would correlate into how many units might be floating around in the secondary market as well as later costs involved regarding vendors who do major software updates that are not included free for secondary owners.
At this time I am only considering hardware based systems, so the Waves system (forget the models) AVID S3L and behringer rack thing are likely off the list.
I'll use the car shopping analogy again, last time I looked for a general use car I had many many brochures, some were tossed out right away but the BMW 3 base sedan and Mercedes 3 series base sedan were on the list long after the kia, chev, ford were crossed off. In the end the purchase ended up being a 15 year old dodge neon that had been genuinely little old lady driven 60k (4000mi/yr) rust checked every fall and only needed a pair of struts and brake shoes for $500 roadside 4 years later and it shows no signs of quitting. It gets the job done just as well as a shiney new toy would have
As for the mercedes vs ford truck.I'm more familiar with tractors. One time another family member was looking for something in the 100hp range, had literature from catepillar, case, massey, new holland, valtra, landini,deutz-allis initial cost was only a factor, common service parts, dealer labor rates, and especially at $5.50+ a gallon fuel that was a major concern, in the end a 90hp Valtra won out as it punches above its with a high torque engine and matched multi speed transmission and about 2/3 fuel compared to a deer john and no one here had ever really heard of the brand let alone seen one
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Waves can be patched into almost any digital board. All it needs is some sort of digital IO to the host computer. Yes, some of the Digico Consoles have waves built-in but they are most certainly not near the Sub 10k price point.
for a Sub 10k price point the X32 is hard to beat. There are some other offerings from Roland, Presouns, Allen&Heath and Soundcraft but those while in the same price point don't really have a very intuitive user interface. There is also a few of the Midas Pro Series in the Sub 10k range but don't buy them unless you like mixing with pop groups - I don't but many do. there is also the Midas M32 which will be out at the end of the month to consider.
Personally I'd say unless it's in a installed situation, scratch the LS9 off your list. for one it's old, but mainly in festival/multiband environments you will hate it. The M7CL can be had used if you really want the LS9, and you probably like it better.
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Hi Richard,
I can only comment on the <5K digital mixers that I have experience with.
The X32 and M32 are cut from the same cloth ..... as odd as that may seem. The M32 has true MIDAS pre's, MIDAS faders (tested to 1,000,000 operations vs the X32's 300,000), a better warranty than the X32 and a MIDAS case. Aside from these differences, they operate exactly the same, and have the same suite of applications which support them (Android app, iPad app, iPhone app, PC, Mac and Linux apps). These consoles also sport LCD scribble strips. Once you have LCD scribble strips, it is hard to ever live without them again. There are over 100,000 X32's out in the wild, but the M32 has yet to ship.
Either one will sound great and has a full complement of digital flexibility with respect to buses and routing.
I know one sound provider that has A/B'd the internal plate reverb on the X32 with his >$3000 Eventide and considers them to be too close to differentiate when setup well.
I also wouldn't dismiss having an X32 Rack as a backup and stage box (ie it can be used essentially as a stage box for a full X32 and yet be considered a backup mixer in case someone drops a telephone pole on your full sized X32).
The Qu 16 and 24 mixers are solid mixers, but lie more in the "Digi-log" category ..... or in other words, they are digital mixers who are trying to be as much like an analog mixer as possible. They have less flexibility than the X32/M32 (no DCA's, no matrix mixes, less flexible routing, etc, etc). They are very competent mixers with great sound. The channel VU meters are only 3 LED's which seems pitiful to me personally. There are lots of these out there (no where near as many as the X32), but the QU-24 is relatively new. The Qu-16 has been out for about 1.5 years IIRC.
The Soundcraft Expression SI 1,2,3, has the distinction in this group of being able to expand to 66 channel mixing .... which I believe can be 66 XLR inputs with the right combination of stage boxes (someone correct me if I am wrong). This is also the only mixer in this group that can't do multi-track recording without an expansion card (add $400.00) This is also an outstanding mixer with regards to sound quality. There are quite a few of these out there and they were released about 2 years ago IIRC.
I would not recommend the Presonus boards as they lack motorized faders (which at a minimum means if you use a remote app to adjust something, it isn't reflected on the console), and lack recallable / remote gains. They are also very limited in the number of mix buses compared to other offerings mentioned here.
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I know one sound provider that has A/B'd the internal plate reverb on the X32 with his >$3000 Eventide and considers them to be too close to differentiate
Hi Scott. What model Eventide was used for the comparison?
Cheers,
Andy
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probably looking at 2
one in the <10k system price range, cased with snake and possibly another in the sub 40k, again system complete cased with snake system or it could be 2 of the lower end ones or maybe none and I'll just keep on keepin on with the analog stuff thats bough paid for and adequately routes input signal to the outputs.
In the less than 40k price range I would buy a Pro2, it comes with a case and snake. An SC48 is also looks good but Avid's recent financial situations worries me. Yamaha ... don't know. The initial price of the CL5 was too high and now Yamaha is playing catch up. My market hasn't really embraced the new Yamaha's but your market maybe different.
In the less than 10k price range I would buy a GL80. If I owned a Pro2 I would probably favour an M32. I believe you can mix and match the AES50 Midas stage boxes.
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Waves can be patched into almost any digital board. All it needs is some sort of digital IO to the host computer. Yes, some of the Digico Consoles have waves built-in but they are most certainly not near the Sub 10k price point.
for a Sub 10k price point the X32 is hard to beat. There are some other offerings from Roland, Presouns, Allen&Heath and Soundcraft but those while in the same price point don't really have a very intuitive user interface. There is also a few of the Midas Pro Series in the Sub 10k range but don't buy them unless you like mixing with pop groups - I don't but many do. there is also the Midas M32 which will be out at the end of the month to consider.
Personally I'd say unless it's in a installed situation, scratch the LS9 off your list. for one it's old, but mainly in festival/multiband environments you will hate it. The M7CL can be had used if you really want the LS9, and you probably like it better.
Pure bull! I wish some of you guys would quit giving the impression that you have actually used these boards and that you know what you are talking about!
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How bothered are you about buying your 2 consoles from the same "family"? I'm a bear of very little brain, but I think if I owned 2 digital consoles I'd prefer it if they both came from the same manufacturer so they had a similar workflow. Having swapped between different manufacturers boards a fair bit in the past it always takes me a while to get back in to the swing of where things are. It's far less noticeable though when I change between an LS9 and M7CL, because whilst they still have plenty of differences, they at least share a common heritage and workflow.
How much is a Digico SD11 over that side of the Atlantic? Not sure if it might be a bit much for your smaller price bracket. Might be another name to consider.
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Waves can be patched into almost any digital board. All it needs is some sort of digital IO to the host computer. Yes, some of the Digico Consoles have waves built-in but they are most certainly not near the Sub 10k price point.
for a Sub 10k price point the X32 is hard to beat. There are some other offerings from Roland, Presouns, Allen&Heath and Soundcraft but those while in the same price point don't really have a very intuitive user interface. There is also a few of the Midas Pro Series in the Sub 10k range but don't buy them unless you like mixing with pop groups - I don't but many do. there is also the Midas M32 which will be out at the end of the month to consider.
Personally I'd say unless it's in a installed situation, scratch the LS9 off your list. for one it's old, but mainly in festival/multiband environments you will hate it. The M7CL can be had used if you really want the LS9, and you probably like it better.
I come from the perspective of a freelance touring BE who also heads up audio at my church.
The GLD series has an extraordinarily intuitive user interface, and the Qu desks are very easy as well. I've overseen the purchase of three GLD desks and one Qu so far, with another pair of Qu desks coming soon - some for my church, some for other uses.
I don't care for the smaller Soundcraft (Si32 compact), mostly due to limited flexibility (unless someone can show me how to put effects returns on the same layer as vocals). I find the Midas Pro series very counterintuitive, but I've only done 2 or 3 shows on them, so maybe I'll get used to them (I have a couple more shows on them - a Pro2 and a Pro3 - coming soon). I have no experience on the Roland options.
The PreSonus stuff...ugh...they were the first to their price point, but really any other option is better these days in my view.
My favorite desks to mix fly dates on are the Avid desks - any of them. Easy routing, easy setup, very intuitive.
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.... There are some other offerings from Roland, Presouns, Allen&Heath and Soundcraft but those while in the same price point don't really have a very intuitive user interface. ...
Not my experience at all. I own an X32 and a A&H GLD112 (which is missing from the list) and I find the GLD112 similar to the X32 on the simple functions and easier for many of the advanced functions. The UI on the GLD is fantastic in my assessment.
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Not my experience at all. I own an X32 and a A&H GLD112 (which is missing from the list) and I find the GLD112 similar to the X32 on the simple functions and easier for many of the advanced functions. The UI on the GLD is fantastic in my assessment.
Basic mixing on almost any of the small digital mixers isn't dramatically different, especially once you're aware of any nomenclature differences and access layers. The major difference in the UIs come in when you need to configure the mixer parameters, whether global, mix or input-specific. Major head scratching, random button pushing and frequent frustration is the first wave of response... but once you're set up and running, making a typical L/R mix with some EFX and inserted channel strip dynamics is pretty much the same whether you're on an X32 or Avid Venue series (except for Midas, it seems).
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Justin,
You can definitely put FX on the main page on the Si series,
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Not my experience at all. I own an X32 and a A&H GLD112 (which is missing from the list) and I find the GLD112 similar to the X32 on the simple functions and easier for many of the advanced functions. The UI on the GLD is fantastic in my assessment.
the GLD112 is not really un the Sub 10k price bracket I was referring to. I do like the GLD112 after using it a few time. I prefer it over the X32 however at $9,999 plus needed stage boxes (as there is only four local inputs) it's not really a sub $10k board. The cheaper Allen&heath boards aren't as nice. And don't even get me started on the Soundcraft SI line, I don't care for it.
I still like my M7CL-48 but I rarely use it, the lack of scribble strips is something I find a big deal now. It's not as much a big deal since it has no layers but I still miss them when I don't have them. Granted the M7 has more effect and ALOT more flexible routing than the cheaper options than the X32 but we rarely use all of it's functionality.
But like I said I would not consider the LS-9 for much. We tried it before we bought the M7CL and it was not a pleasant experience. Maybe they improved it but then anything besides simple fader changes was not a very quick process.
Avid's Consoles are great if you need the features/plugins. We rarely do. If you do a lot of A level bands this would be a good board to have though. a lot of bands are mixing on this now to have the same plugins as their albums do. Honestly if you are renting and it's something your clients want the SC48 has your best possible ROI, personal opinion of course.
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(except for Midas, it seems).
Yeah, Midas definitely takes another approach. I've mixed on a Pro2 and Pro3 a total of 3-5 times. I didn't really like it but I think that's a board that take a lot of time to get used to. I like keeping channels always in similar orders (no matter the band, just same general sequence of inputs) the population group on the console seems to just slow me down, were as on layers I'd always remember where to go. Maybe I'd like it with more time but I doubt it. I know many people who like them I just don't care for them.
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Justin,
You can definitely put FX on the main page on the Si series,
That is if you can even read that small of a screen.
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That is if you can even read that small of a screen.
While the screen on it is small, the text on it is the same as everyone else's. I don't know of anyone making a large print edition mixing console, outside of the bottom status bar on the venues. The silk screening on every desk is smaller then the text on every screen I have seen.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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How bothered are you about buying your 2 consoles from the same "family"? I'm a bear of very little brain, but I think if I owned 2 digital consoles I'd prefer it if they both came from the same manufacturer so they had a similar workflow. Having swapped between different manufacturers boards a fair bit in the past it always takes me a while to get back in to the swing of where things are. It's far less noticeable though when I change between an LS9 and M7CL, because whilst they still have plenty of differences, they at least share a common heritage and workflow.
How much is a Digico SD11 over that side of the Atlantic? Not sure if it might be a bit much for your smaller price bracket. Might be another name to consider.
Very true. Especially if ever considering using a digital split with one as a monitor console and one as the FOH console.
The SD11 is about $16k over here. the sd11 has a very small control surface. I've only touched a Digico once, and that was a used one that a local rental house was selling off at a sticker price of $150,000 used. Digicos are good but no where near economical compared to other solutions. I think I would go for the Avid SC48 over the SD11
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edited to add
A&H GLD112, again wasn't aware of its existance even though I hve been pro A&H in live and DJ equipment with past purchases
One question someone had mentioned the Behringer Xrack32 would function as a stage box as well as being its own stand alone mixer, Could someone who has this system in use confirm or deny please,
ASSuming the xrack
would behave as a digi snake in that mode on the lower end this is intruiging if the didgi snake box streets at 900 and the xrack at 1200 and x32 at 2800, thats under 5k (before case) for what amounts to 2 systems if one was run via handheld surface and the other went with copper snake, I can see why the fast adoption has happened.
How long has this X32 been a thing, are there many out there that have been powered on for 2000 hours yet? (again my spidey sense of the B brands past longevity kicking in here)
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edited to add
A&H GLD112, again wasn't aware of its existance even though I hve been pro A&H in live and DJ equipment with past purchases
One question someone had mentioned the Behringer Xrack32 would function as a stage box as well as being its own stand alone mixer, Could someone who has this system in use confirm or deny please,
ASSuming the xrack
would behave as a digi snake in that mode on the lower end this is intruiging if the didgi snake box streets at 900 and the xrack at 1200 and x32 at 2800, thats under 5k (before case) for what amounts to 2 systems if one was run via handheld surface and the other went with copper snake, I can see why the fast adoption has happened.
How long has this X32 been a thing, are there many out there that have been powered on for 2000 hours yet? (again my spidey sense of the B brands past longevity kicking in here)
The original X32 Console has been out for about 3 years. The other models came out later and I don't know the date of those.
The original X32 has been installed in a few well know places and toured with by a few well know bands for a while.
Capital Cities did recently start a tour with the X32 Console as well.
The issue with the X32 is not so much how long will it last, all digital board will need parts; especially motorized faders replaced at some point. The issue is more of will parts/service be readily available? I'm guessing not.
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That is if you can even read that small of a screen.
Jason,
I can tell by that statement you've not spent much, if any, time with Soundcraft digital boards. The screen is secondary to the purpose of the analog style layout of the board. Press the SELECT button on any channel strip and the entire top of the board is now dedicated to that channel. The screen reflects the use of the channel strip, affects, sends and returns in detail. There is very little use for the touch screen once you have configured the channel outputs.
Likewise creating a sub group/MIX is as simple as pressing a single button and then choosing the channels (press SELECT) to be a part of that group or MIX. Any channel, up to 66, can be set to any layer for any purpose, and channels can be assigned to multiple or all layers if you so wish, following your move through all of the layers. Channel assignment and name is easily seen on the touch screen which has very large text. All Soundcraft digital boards have fader glow, and best of all the sound quality is second to none.
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Jason,
I can tell by that statement you've not spent much, if any, time with Soundcraft digital boards. The screen is secondary to the purpose of the analog style layout of the board. Press the SELECT button on any channel strip and the entire top of the board is now dedicated to that channel. The screen reflects the use of the channel strip, affects, sends and returns in detail. There is very little use for the touch screen once you have configured the channel outputs.
Likewise creating a sub group/MIX is as simple as pressing a single button and then choosing the channels (press SELECT) to be a part of that group or MIX. Any channel, up to 66, can be set to any layer for any purpose, and channels can be assigned to multiple or all layers if you so wish, following your move through all of the layers. Channel assignment and name is easily seen on the touch screen which has very large text. All Soundcraft digital boards have fader glow, and best of all the sound quality is second to none.
I've used plenty of soundcraft boards, just never the SI expression. I toyed with one once. Took me about 5-min to realize we'd never be able to use it at our festivals.. fader glow outside isn't the best idea. I like sound craft in the old days, I miss the Spirit 8 40ch, well I not really. It was a beast.
But my problem with it is the same problem I have with presonus (much worse on theirs of course) but if I want a digital board I want it to operate like one, if I want an analog board I would still be buying them. I don't want a digital board they tries to act like a analog board as much as possible. to each his own but, I don't care for that.
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It gets a little dim outside, sure, but you get along on all other consoles without it.... Why is it a deal-breaker now? Also, Soundcraft Vi series gets plenty of traffic in the touring and festival circuits, and they use faderglow.
This thread is already filled with all kinda of weird misinformation on several brands, which could be cleared up by merely watching the promotional product videos for this stuff. I'm out of this thread...
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Jason,
I can tell by that statement you've not spent much, if any, time with Soundcraft digital boards. The screen is secondary to the purpose of the analog style layout of the board. Press the SELECT button on any channel strip and the entire top of the board is now dedicated to that channel. The screen reflects the use of the channel strip, affects, sends and returns in detail. There is very little use for the touch screen once you have configured the channel outputs.
Likewise creating a sub group/MIX is as simple as pressing a single button and then choosing the channels (press SELECT) to be a part of that group or MIX. Any channel, up to 66, can be set to any layer for any purpose, and channels can be assigned to multiple or all layers if you so wish, following your move through all of the layers. Channel assignment and name is easily seen on the touch screen which has very large text. All Soundcraft digital boards have fader glow, and best of all the sound quality is second to none.
Hey Bob, I've got a Expression 1 on demo, I've mixed a few gigs with it but alas it's sitting in the box this week as my input count requirements required our GB4-40.
Coming from the X32, I love the faders and the touchscreen. Fader glow is a nice touch as well. My only issue so far is the encoder response, it seems to me that by the time I am getting feedback on the screen I've adjusted the parameter 2dB from where I started, the EQ screen is particularly laggy.
Do you notice similar behavior, or is my console faulty?
Is it just a matter of learning to have a lighter touch?
The X32 has great feedback on the encoders, it's easy to make changes in .5dB steps. I wonder if the Expression is making changes in small increments and I'm just not seeing that reflected on the screen, or does the board respond to encoder movements with lower resolution. I'm curious as to your experience, I really want to fall in love with this board.
SI Expression Faders > X32 Faders. Hands down.
I've used plenty of soundcraft boards, just never the SI expression. I toyed with one once. Took me about 5-min to realize we'd never be able to use it at our festivals.. fader glow outside isn't the best idea. I like sound craft in the old days, I miss the Spirit 8 40ch, well I not really. It was a beast.
But my problem with it is the same problem I have with presonus (much worse on theirs of course) but if I want a digital board I want it to operate like one, if I want an analog board I would still be buying them. I don't want a digital board they tries to act like a analog board as much as possible. to each his own but, I don't care for that.
We (the forum) have gone down this tangent before in the past, I don't see how the workflow is any different on the Expression than any other comparable digital board. Pick a channel, adjust parameters, pick another channel, etc, etc.
It gets a little dim outside, sure, but you get along on all other consoles without it.... Why is it a deal-breaker now? Also, Soundcraft Vi series gets plenty of traffic in the touring and festival circuits, and they use faderglow.
This thread is already filled with all kinda of weird misinformation on several brands, which could be cleared up by merely watching the promotional product videos for this stuff. I'm out of this thread...
The Fader Glow is VERY bright, I set it to about 50% in a theatre setting and it was still bright..
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edited to add
A&H GLD112, again wasn't aware of its existance even though I hve been pro A&H in live and DJ equipment with past purchases
One question someone had mentioned the Behringer Xrack32 would function as a stage box as well as being its own stand alone mixer, Could someone who has this system in use confirm or deny please,
ASSuming the xrack
would behave as a digi snake in that mode on the lower end this is intruiging if the didgi snake box streets at 900 and the xrack at 1200 and x32 at 2800, thats under 5k (before case) for what amounts to 2 systems if one was run via handheld surface and the other went with copper snake, I can see why the fast adoption has happened.
How long has this X32 been a thing, are there many out there that have been powered on for 2000 hours yet? (again my spidey sense of the B brands past longevity kicking in here)
Richard,
I know there are a couple of guys on the Behringer forums and Sound Forums that are using this setup (ie the X32 Rack as a stage box/backup mixer). As you pointed out, you would still need an S16 with the X32 Rack for 32 channel mixing and 16 channel output while the X32 alone could do this all by itself.
If you do a search for "X32 as stage box" you get a few hits that will guide you to people who are doing this.
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The original X32 Console has been out for about 3 years. The other models came out later and I don't know the date of those.
The original X32 has been installed in a few well know places and toured with by a few well know bands for a while.
Capital Cities did recently start a tour with the X32 Console as well.
The issue with the X32 is not so much how long will it last, all digital board will need parts; especially motorized faders replaced at some point. The issue is more of will parts/service be readily available? I'm guessing not.
With over 100,000 units in the field, I would bet that parts will be readily available for a very long time.
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the GLD112 is not really un the Sub 10k price bracket I was referring to. I do like the GLD112 after using it a few time. I prefer it over the X32 however at $9,999 plus needed stage boxes (as there is only four local inputs) it's not really a sub $10k board....
Again not my experience, I purchased a GLD112 with AR2412 stage box and had a nice case custom made and was still well under $10K.
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Again not my experience, I purchased a GLD112 with AR2412 stage box and had a nice case custom made and was still well under $10K.
Especially with the current deal going.
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Especially with the current deal going.
Hmmm, I couldn't find the current deal...
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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Hmmm, I couldn't find the current deal...
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Recent promo - http://www.sweetwater.com/store/pdf/AH-GLD-140630.pdf
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Recent promo - http://www.sweetwater.com/store/pdf/AH-GLD-140630.pdf
On unill June 30, 2014 that definetly would sway some purchasers for sure sway to the A&H
GLD-80, digi snake box, cover 100' cat5 snake router and 16gb ipad mini $9k,
GLD-112 plus goodies $10k
I'm doubtfull the rebate/bonus offer extende to Canada, I'll have to contact Erikson Pro and ask.
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I've used plenty of soundcraft boards, just never the SI expression. I toyed with one once. Took me about 5-min to realize we'd never be able to use it at our festivals.. fader glow outside isn't the best idea. I like sound craft in the old days, I miss the Spirit 8 40ch, well I not really. It was a beast.
But my problem with it is the same problem I have with presonus (much worse on theirs of course) but if I want a digital board I want it to operate like one, if I want an analog board I would still be buying them. I don't want a digital board they tries to act like a analog board as much as possible. to each his own but, I don't care for that.
Please explain how the Soundcraft Si does not operate like a digital board.
Also, Justin did not ask how to put the effects on the screen. I quote: "show me how to put effects returns on the same layer as vocals"
That's easy! Any fader on any layer can be assigned as an effects return.
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I'm interested in that explanation as well. Maybe Soundcraft needs to make their boards harder to use, that way people who think they know what a digital board is can say "This is breaking my balls. It must be a great digital board with a million useless features."
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How long has this X32 been a thing, are there many out there that have been powered on for 2000 hours yet? (again my spidey sense of the B brands past longevity kicking in here)
Richard, I have had one of mine since 1/15/13. It has been used on 219 events and the hours are in the range of 1,800 or so. Think of a festival starting at 7:00 am and ending around 11:00 pm...summer in the mid-west if brutal. We have had no issues with either of or X32 desks or the two X32 racks that we currently own.
I should also note that we will be selling and replacing them every two years. So this just after the first of the year I will most likely sell the one we bought on 1/15/13 and replace it with either a new X32 or the Midas M32. I wouldn't mind having a small digital Midas in my line-up.
Hope that helps.
Bill 8)
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SO I guess that should be all the current major manufacturers product gathered on one list. Well so fas as things above 16 channel with 1 fader per channel, the small tablet based ones would be a different list.
Aside form a few posts from folks who are hot for one brand or another no significant brand bashing
Now to narrow it down I'll have to think about what features I need, I'm thinking digital snake system and moving faders are a yes to both which would eliminate the presonus
mixlive
The X32 keeps coming to the top of the list based on price point but I wish there was some indication as to weather they will continue to support it or if it will be superseded with a version 2.0 next year. Their product life cycles have been 24-36 months in the past which is quite short compared to Yamaha
I think the ls9-32 is off the list, just getting long in the tooth and price point is steep seeing as other brands have been offering more for less money. Not that I wouldn't discount a good used one But again most are being sold based on depreciated value.
I think I'll likely pull the trigger on a <12k system (cased all assc. in also remember I pay 10% more for my money in Canada and we don't have as many big time dealers here either) in the next 15 months depending on what work is out there. I'm in a very small market, most working bands carrying their own PA, 1 mid size one guy bought presonus mixer and qsc K series PA about 2 years ago in an attempt to step up against the larger provider here and I think the dust has settled and pricing has normalized again, Now that some of the local talent are trained to mix their own monitors with their iphone I think it might be the time to go kicking and screaming into the digital realm.
Or I might just say forget about it and go back to wedding DJ work and try and upsell with uplighting packages
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We are a Weeekend/Friday/Thursday concert and festival company.
for the most part most of your events will be toward the weekend if not on the weekend with the few exceptions. (we have 1 or 2 week long festivals per year) if you want to expand to to make enough revenue to be your full time job (of your own business) you will need to expand your services while still maintaining your niche. This takes money & time.
The usual ways for a production company to make it through the week are:
Offer installation services (of all types, Audio, Video, projectors, stage rigging, security cameras, maybe even alarm systems and IT equipment).
Offer Consultation services (in similar categories as above)
Offer Stage Design/Prop Design/Theatrical design & lighting Design.
Offer System Tunning Services.
Repair Services
Retail Sales (and authorized dealer/service center) for Audio/Video/lighting gear.
You need to do a market analysis to see if your area can support this or not.
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What else is on offer these days in the main stream. I'm not interested in anything boutique or small run stuff. but I guess its still me mulling over going with the adequate end of the market or dropping a ton more $$$ for all the bells and whistles.
The TASCAM DM-3200 has been available since 2006 and even though it is featured to be a recording console, along with the DM-4800 has been incorporated into many church setups in the US who were price sensitive, and all over the world where other manufacturers have no presence, no localized/translated manuals or import duties that makes the price prohibitive.
Tom (from TASCAM).
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The TASCAM DM-3200 has been available since 2006 and even though it is featured to be a recording console, along with the DM-4800 has been incorporated into many church setups in the US who were price sensitive, and all over the world where other manufacturers have no presence, no localized/translated manuals or import duties that makes the price prohibitive.
Tom (from TASCAM).
There's also a mackie TT Series but, it's rumored to have issues. I'm not sure if it's even still made for that matter, it was probably about the 2006 era as well.
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The TASCAM DM-3200 has been available since 2006 and even though it is featured to be a recording console, along with the DM-4800 has been incorporated into many church setups in the US who were price sensitive, and all over the world where other manufacturers have no presence, no localized/translated manuals or import duties that makes the price prohibitive.
Tom (from TASCAM).
With respect Tom, I have some experience on this console, and it is awkward for live use. I would have a hard time recommending it in light of the many good, purpose-designed live mixers such as the A&H Qu series, various Soundcraft SIs, and the Behringer offerings.
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With respect Tom, I have some experience on this console, and it is awkward for live use. I would have a hard time recommending it in light of the many good, purpose-designed live mixers such as the A&H Qu series, various Soundcraft SIs, and the Behringer offerings.
I don't get it but for some reason people chose to mix on consoles mean for recording still.. remember the Yamaha 01v96 and well the presonus series was pretty much only that when it started.
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I don't get it but for some reason people chose to mix on consoles mean for recording still.. remember the Yamaha 01v96 and well the presonus series was pretty much only that when it started.
Unlike the Tascam, the 01v96 is very functional for live use, and was legitimately the best value in a small format digital mixer until the X32. There are many thousands still in use; two of them by me.
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Tascam product added to original post
I'll look at them but at a glance having only 2 XLR out and 8 1/4" on the output side looks limiting, theres a lot of nights I would need LR M, 4 wedge mixes plus a couple in ears mixes depending on talent requirements, 3
I'm not seeing a digital snake system, I'm guessing the second layer of channels are input by a add on card with a breakout box?
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Tascam product added to original post
I'll look at them but at a glance having only 2 XLR out and 8 1/4" on the output side looks limiting, theres a lot of nights I would need LR M, 4 wedge mixes plus a couple in ears mixes depending on talent requirements, 3
I'm not seeing a digital snake system, I'm guessing the second layer of channels are input by a add on card with a breakout box?
I seriously doubt it has a digital snake system being a recording board.
It also may not have additional I/O either. With recording boards a lot of time the advertised channel count is the virtual channel count including the play back from the DAW not physical channels.
If it did provide addtional I/O it would likely be in the form of a a DB-25 connector 8 to 1/4 jacks snake which would still need a mic pre.
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I seriously doubt it has a digital snake system being a recording board.
It also may not have additional I/O either. With recording boards a lot of time the advertised channel count is the virtual channel count including the play back from the DAW not physical channels.
If it did provide addtional I/O it would likely be in the form of a a DB-25 connector 8 to 1/4 jacks snake which would still need a mic pre.
Jason - a word of advice - you have made a number of posts where you seem to be guessing. That's not particularly helpful. Questions like these are easy to answer by looking up specs of the item in question, or letting someone else answer who does know.
Specs here:
http://tascam.com/product/dm-3200/overview/
The Tascam series has somewhat limited I/O on the surface, 16X10, but all of the channels are real - they just require external hardware connected via T/Dif or ADAT.
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Jason - a word of advice - you have made a number of posts where you seem to be guessing. That's not particularly helpful. Questions like these are easy to answer by looking up specs of the item in question, or letting someone else answer who does know.
Specs here:
http://tascam.com/product/dm-3200/overview/
The Tascam series has somewhat limited I/O on the surface, 16X10, but all of the channels are real - they just require external hardware connected via T/Dif or ADAT.
I was giving over all advice on how the recording desk tend to do their inputs, if the OP want's to look up the specs fine. but I'm not as it's not a board I would consider.
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With respect Tom, I have some experience on this console, and it is awkward for live use. I would have a hard time recommending it in light of the many good, purpose-designed live mixers such as the A&H Qu series, various Soundcraft SIs, and the Behringer offerings.
Agreed. I wouldn't expect to see it as a house mixer for PA use, and the church use is usually where everything is already setup and ready to drive. The combination of availability in other countries, cost and digital options (Cobranet, Aviom, AES/EBU, ADAT) plus recording I/O outweighed the awkwardness for some owner/users.
Budget Digital Live Mixer is a category that exploded in the last few years, so anything from before that time is going to have a hard time competing. The DM-3200 is still in production, so I appreciate having it included in the list, even for historical reference.
Tom (TASCAM)