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Church and H.O.W. – Forums for HOW Sound and AV - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Church and HOW Forums => Church Sound => Topic started by: Garrett Nelson on May 04, 2014, 11:44:59 PM

Title: sound for streaming live to internet
Post by: Garrett Nelson on May 04, 2014, 11:44:59 PM
So, my church streams services to the internet. Currently using livestream.com but having some problems there so we may possibly move to a different service.

Currently, the sound is not so great and I would like to improve that.

Current equipment:
Soundcraft GB8 32-channel analog mixer
Canon XLH1 HD camera
SDI to HDMI converter box
Livestream Broadcaster
Shure "room" microphone of some sort

Currently, sound for the Livestream box comes from one of the aux outs on the mixer. The Shure "room mic" is at the back of the church and it's output is fed only to the livestream mix to help add some presence so it does not sound so dry.

The problem is that sound for the internet stream is not monitored/adjusted during the service, and I don't think the person running sound is going to be able to keep up with running a 2nd mix for the internet stream. There is also no audio metering for the internet stream, so the person running the camera (or the person running the sound) has no idea when the audio into the Livestream box is being overdriven into severe clipping.

I think the person running the camera for the streaming should have on a good set of headphones to monitor what audio is getting sent out with the stream. I also think the person running the camera needs an audio meter of some sort to keep an eye on so they know when the signal is clipping and needs to be turned down. Beyond that, there seems to be no clear path to fix the issues.

I see some possible options:

1. Set up a 2nd mixer that the person running the camera would use to mix sound for the internet stream. Run outputs from each channel on the main mixer to inputs on the 2nd mixer for streaming. Not sure if we have the physical space for a 2nd sound board of any decent size, so this is pretty impractical for space reasons as well as cost.

2. Get some appropriate microphones strategically placed in the room and feed them into a small dedicated mixer for the internet stream. This would be the primary sound for the internet stream. Possibly split off the pastor's mic to a channel on this small mixer so that could come through directly as clearly as possible, anything else would come through the room mics. I am thinking of a 4-8 channel mixer here, very simple to operate.

3. Replace the main sound board with a digital board and have the person running the camera use an iPad to run the aux-out on the board feeding the live stream audio.

4. Have the person running the camera lean over and adjust the aux-outs on the mixer themselves. May not be very practical because the mixer we have is fairly large.

5. The person running sound is just going to have twice the work to do, constantly switching to headphones to monitor and adjust the live stream mix.

The more I think about it, option 2 is sounding better and better to me. It sacrifices sound quality during music for simplicity and consistency.

Any thoughts here? How do other churches handle this? The church I came from previously used option 4, but we had a fairly compact mixer that let us get away with it.
Title: Re: sound for streaming live to internet
Post by: Jerome Malsack on May 05, 2014, 08:40:10 AM
Have you had time to read this article? 

http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/church_sound_putting_together_a_broadcast_mix/church

With the option 2 the pastor mic will not be time synced with the room mic's possibly making him muddied by room and reverb? 
Title: Re: sound for streaming live to internet
Post by: Tom Young on May 05, 2014, 04:15:44 PM
So, my church streams services to the internet. Currently using livestream.com but having some problems there so we may possibly move to a different service. ........Any thoughts here? How do other churches handle this? The church I came from previously used option 4, but we had a fairly compact mixer that let us get away with it.

Your situation is exactly the same as found when recording a service from the FOH mixer, which has been covered, ad infinitum, here at PSW and elsewhere over the years.

Here is a very abbreviated list of rules that apply:

1. You will not be able to mix properly for this second medium from within the space even if you have headphones. You need to be acoustically isolated.

2. If mixing from the (same) FOH mixer and using aux sends, they must be configured as "post fader / post EQ"

3. Attempting to have one person mix the house *and* also monitor (occasionally or continually) the record/broadcast/streaming mix is a really bad idea.

Search here and elsewhere for "board mix", "recording live shows", "recording church services",
"ambient microphones in recording", etc.

The better articles and threads will provide details of what won't work and what will.....and why.
Title: Re: sound for streaming live to internet
Post by: Jeff Carter on May 05, 2014, 04:35:46 PM
Have you had time to read this article? 

http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/church_sound_putting_together_a_broadcast_mix/church

With the option 2 the pastor mic will not be time synced with the room mic's possibly making him muddied by room and reverb?

That article comes from a series Mike Sessler did on his blog, with the first article here:
http://churchtecharts.org/home/2014/3/10/the-broadcast-mix-pt-1 (http://churchtecharts.org/home/2014/3/10/the-broadcast-mix-pt-1)
Title: Re: sound for streaming live to internet
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on May 05, 2014, 05:41:47 PM
Your situation is exactly the same as found when recording a service from the FOH mixer, which has been covered, ad infinitum, here at PSW and elsewhere over the years.

Here is a very abbreviated list of rules that apply:

1. You will not be able to mix properly for this second medium from within the space even if you have headphones. You need to be acoustically isolated.

2. If mixing from the (same) FOH mixer and using aux sends, they must be configured as "post fader / post EQ"

3. Attempting to have one person mix the house *and* also monitor (occasionally or continually) the record/broadcast/streaming mix is a really bad idea.

Search here and elsewhere for "board mix", "recording live shows", "recording church services",
"ambient microphones in recording", etc.

The better articles and threads will provide details of what won't work and what will.....and why.

Another possibility is to combine a room mic at the rear of the hall with a delayed "board dub" to synch the two.  Simply balance the two and you have a pretty fair, quick mix for the camera and the stream.

Do it in real time, no post.  It's a pretty simple job for a volunteer and requires only a room mic, delay synch capability and a small mix pad to combine the two.
Title: Re: sound for streaming live to internet
Post by: Mac Kerr on May 05, 2014, 06:04:17 PM
Another possibility is to combine a room mic at the rear of the hall with a delayed "board dub" to synch the two.  Simply balance the two and you have a pretty fair, quick mix for the camera and the stream.

Do it in real time, no post.  It's a pretty simple job for a volunteer and requires only a room mic, delay synch capability and a small mix pad to combine the two.

Put the room mic at the front, near the speakers and you don't need the delay.

Mac
Title: Re: sound for streaming live to internet
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on May 05, 2014, 07:03:31 PM
Put the room mic at the front, near the speakers and you don't need the delay.

Mac

I like to haveit back a bit for balance...and ease of deployment.  Of course in a fuixed install it may be easier to situate it up close. 
Title: Re: sound for streaming live to internet
Post by: Garrett Nelson on May 06, 2014, 07:20:46 PM
Thanks for the excellent advice everyone.
Title: Re: sound for streaming live to internet
Post by: Michael Elphinstone on May 06, 2014, 11:09:53 PM
We just create a rough aux mix prior to the service for our camera feed, which includes an ambient crowd mic. Send it all to the camera, then via HDMI to a BlackMagic box connected to our streaming Mac. We use Ustream, which has worked well for us. Does it sound perfect? No. Is is manageable for one sound tech and one vision tech? Yes. For us it's a trade-off. We've only got 10-15 viewers a service, so we're not too fussed. It's not rotten, just not as good as we would like. If you want amazing sound, come to church. Otherwise you get average sound for the stream (which you also sometimes get at church!).

Cheers,
Michael
Title: Re: sound for streaming live to internet
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on May 07, 2014, 01:43:23 AM
All of the above is good advice.

In not my church but a sister church that streams, they also have a feed from an AUX send on the FOH board. They don't actively mix the sound for the stream, but there is a compressor in the feed to the PC to provide some normalization of the loudness. It seems to work OK.

There are audience/ambiance mics that are mixed into the stream. They are placed near the front.

It helps that the church doesn't have a worship band. A regular service consists of the spoken word and congregational singing accompanied by organ or piano. Occasionally for a wedding or funeral there will be vocalists, usually accompanied by organ or piano.
Title: Re: sound for streaming live to internet
Post by: Garrett Nelson on May 07, 2014, 07:48:28 AM
Based on the advice given I have done quite a bit of searching, but haven't found a lot of relevant results. If anyone has any specific links I would appreciate it.

Any suggestions on what type of mics would be good for ambient pickup? Let's assume they have to be mounted at the back of the church near the mixer, it is elevated about 15 feet up in a small loft area.
Title: Re: sound for streaming live to internet
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on May 07, 2014, 07:55:35 AM
Based on the advice given I have done quite a bit of searching, but haven't found a lot of relevant results. If anyone has any specific links I would appreciate it.

Any suggestions on what type of mics would be good for ambient pickup? Let's assume they have to be mounted at the back of the church near the mixer, it is elevated about 15 feet up in a small loft area.

What mics do you have on hand?
Title: Re: sound for streaming live to internet
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on May 07, 2014, 10:57:16 AM
I can't give any specifics on mic selection for rear-mount, but I find that a cardioid mic mounted near the front aimed toward the congregation provides better ambience of congregational singing (just try standing near the front when they're singing, then compare that to standing in the back and you'll see what I mean) as you will get more direct vocal sound. Positioned in the back, much of the sound picked up by the mics is reflected. By using cardioid mics, you can minimize the amount of sound from the stage (which should be picked up by on-stage microphones anyway) and loudspeakers picked up by the mics.

It has been mentioned that there will be a time delay effect of rear-placed microphones as direct sound from the stage mics will be followed shortly by direct and reproduced sound from the ambiance mics, due to the time it takes for sound to get from FOH to the mics. Placing the ambiance mics near the front pointed toward the congregation minimizes this effect, but you still get the reflected sound which is what makes it sound like you are in a large room rather than an acoustically dead studio. However, front placement WILL increase the noticeability of crowd noises such as talking and coughing.

Yes, even though it sounds like you've pretty much settled on rear-mount, I'm still advocating for front mount. I firmly believe the results will be more pleasing.
Title: Re: sound for streaming live to internet
Post by: Ryan M. Fluharty on May 07, 2014, 02:59:03 PM
So, my church streams services to the internet. Currently using livestream.com but having some problems there so we may possibly move to a different service.

Currently, the sound is not so great and I would like to improve that.

Any thoughts here? How do other churches handle this? The church I came from previously used option 4, but we had a fairly compact mixer that let us get away with it.

I run a livestream mix out of a post aux for a young adult's ministry at church.  Given I'm on an M7CL, so I have a little more tools available at my disposal, the mix sounds anywhere from "ok" to "pretty decent."  If you are one of the main people actually doing the house mixing, give your stream a listen to if you post your videos online.  I've found that after a few weeks I know where my aux levels need to be to get a well rounded broadcast mix based on how the house is sounding.  We are in a flex space of the church, so our ambient mic is just a dynamic on a mic stand sitting on the side of the stage pointing out to the audience.  I usually keep it higher for worship and turn it down a bit during preaching.

We do run a compressor on the main broadcast out just to help even out the levels a bit more.

You should be able to get a decent mix based on trial & error and experience.
Title: Re: sound for streaming live to internet
Post by: Garrett Nelson on May 07, 2014, 07:56:04 PM
Yes, even though it sounds like you've pretty much settled on rear-mount, I'm still advocating for front mount. I firmly believe the results will be more pleasing.

Thanks for your advice. My mind is certainly not made up and I appreciate your help.

I'm not in charge of any of this, and I don't even run sound here (yet) but I do run the camera sometimes. Just hoping to be as informed as I can be before attempting to discuss changes with the people involved.

Not sure if we have any extra mics available or not. I will see what is sitting around.