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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Installed Sound/Contracting => Topic started by: Jason Lucas on November 13, 2012, 08:05:07 PM
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I apologize if this is in the wrong spot but I assumed this was the best place to ask.
For any of you who are professional acoustics consultants, how did you learn what you know about acoustics? Did you go to school? Do your own research? Apprentice under others?
I ask because I have a desire to learn more about sound and my knowledge of acoustics, especially in regard to large spaces, is rather limited.
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I apologize if this is in the wrong spot but I assumed this was the best place to ask.
For any of you who are professional acoustics consultants, how did you learn what you know about acoustics? Did you go to school? Do your own research? Apprentice under others?
I ask because I have a desire to learn more about sound and my knowledge of acoustics, especially in regard to large spaces, is rather limited.
Hello Jason,
To call oneself an Acoustics Consultant, the candidate must attend a College and/or University and receive the appropriate Degrees. (Master's Degree to PHD.) Then, in most States, a Licensing exam (P.E.) is taken to prove one's extended knowledge in this field. If the candidate passes the exam, they are awarded a License/or Certification that they have attained the proper experience and knowledge. These certifications can be called a license or a P.E. (Professional Engineer)
There are some States that do not enforce this critiera, which can cause confusion, but this situation is changing year to year, and most are enforcing the professional criteria.
There are many people, knowingly or unknowingly, calling themselves Acoustic Consultants, that have not earned the title, many States actively prosecute these individuals as committing fraud.
If you are serious in a quest to persue a career goal to become an Acoustic Consultant, contact a larger University and speak to a counselor or a Professor in the Engineering Department. THey can point you in the right direction. Expect to spend about 6-8 years in Higher education.
Good Luck,
Hammer
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Perhaps some confusion. One should be properly licensed to call one's self an "Acoustical Engineer" or to offer Engineering services in acoustics, but as far as I know, in the US only one state has ever offered PE licensing as an Acoustical Engineer and no licensing or certification of any type is required to present yourself an acoustical consultant or to provide consulting services in acoustics.
Qualifying for a Professional Engineering exam requires a combination of directly relevant education, experience and other testing such as the Fundamentals of Engineering exam (what used to be the EIT or Engineer in Training exam). A typical path would be a BS or BSE in Engineering, passing the 8 hour FE/EIT exam, 4 years of documented practical experience and multiple formal references including licensed PEs in order to qualify for an 8 hour PE exam. In many states it is possible to qualify for a PE exam without a related degree or other exam result, however it may take years of experience under the direct guidance of licensed professionals. It's also worth noting that according to NSPE only about 20% of those with a BS in Engineering go on to become registered Professional Engineers as many go into positions or roles that do not require professional licensure.
There are a few universities and colleges that offer undergraduate acoustics degree programs, although many others offer some form of emphasis in acoustics in their physics, architecture, engineering or other degree programs. A factor to keep in mind here is that "acoustics" covers a wide range of areas, the Acoustical Society of America has 13 committees representing such diverse areas of acoustics as architectural acoustics, biomedical acoustics, underwater acoustics, musical acoustics, engineering acoustics, speech communications and animal bioacoustics. Over the years I've been part of interviewing numerous candidates for acoustical consulting positions and seen many people with very strong acoustics backgrounds and experience but that have no idea what Reverberation Time is, have never heard of a "NC" value, don't know any of the common architectural acoustics products and so on, a result of their education and experience having been in other areas of acoustics.
For any of you who are professional acoustics consultants, how did you learn what you know about acoustics? Did you go to school? Do your own research? Apprentice under others?
For me it was all three and that is probably pretty typical in varying degrees. I happen to have a BSE degree in Acoustical Engineering, but most acoustical consultants I know received degrees in Physics, Mechnical Engineering, Architecture, Music, Theatre, etc. and many of those with an acoustics concentration. Mentoring and apprenticeship can be critical, particulary in terms of learning the practical application aspects. And ongoing study is just about required, not only to broaden your knowledge and understanding but also to keep up with the latest research, products, tools and so on.
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If you can spell "consultant" you are one. Doesn't mean you are competent, but if someone is willing to pay you for your services, you are a professional consultant. A good audio consultant will have a strong background in acoustics (both classroom and experience), equipment (lots of reading and experience), installation procedures (experience and training), strong knowledge of electronics and electrical (training, education, and experience), decent concept of aesthetics, business practices, local laws and regulations, and a strong desire to keep up with the changes in the industry.
It also might be argued that a good haircut and the ability to shift blame could be considered assets, but I have neither.
Get a decent education in acoustical physics and electronics, maybe mix in a bit of music classes, and then find an established sound company to work for from the ground up.
Good luck.
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If you can spell "consultant" you are one. Doesn't mean you are competent, but if someone is willing to pay you for your services, you are a professional consultant. A good audio consultant will have a strong background in acoustics (both classroom and experience), equipment (lots of reading and experience), installation procedures (experience and training), strong knowledge of electronics and electrical (training, education, and experience), decent concept of aesthetics, business practices, local laws and regulations, and a strong desire to keep up with the changes in the industry.
It also might be argued that a good haircut and the ability to shift blame could be considered assets, but I have neither.
Get a decent education in acoustical physics and electronics, maybe mix in a bit of music classes, and then find an established sound company to work for from the ground up.
Good luck.
You are totally correct. It is truly sad how little "regulation" there is in our industry-both on the design.install side and the manufacturing spec side.
I see systems all the time in which I say "What were they thinking????" or "Not a clue" or "DO WHAT?"
Now the system may be really pretty-with all the correct documentation-but it fails to meet even the basic levels of performance-or is full of "errors", which if corrected (often for less money than what was spent) would improve system performance. I don't want to get started.
But that doesn't stop anybody. :(
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I apologize if this is in the wrong spot but I assumed this was the best place to ask.
For any of you who are professional acoustics consultants, how did you learn what you know about acoustics? Did you go to school? Do your own research? Apprentice under others?
I ask because I have a desire to learn more about sound and my knowledge of acoustics, especially in regard to large spaces, is rather limited.
My reading of the OP is that he is not looking to become an "Acoustics Consultant" or provide acoustics services to design large concert halls or other performance venues, but rather to learn more about sound. There are many levels at which to understand sound, or to apply that understanding. I think before we recommend a whole sequence of courses in ordinary and partial differential equations and physics of harmonic systems, degrees in engineering and physics, haircuts, knowledge of business ethics or other such unpleasantries, or even which fun acoustics and sound books to read, it would be good for the OP to give us a little more detail about at what level he wants to understand sound, what his math and physics background is, and what he wants to do with his increased knowledge of sound. In the 9 days since the OP, we have not heard back from him.
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M. In the 9 days since the OP, we have not heard back from him.
Now that shows dedication and real interest------------
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Now that shows dedication and real interest------------
These forums are intimidating... I am guilty of throwing the question out there and seeing what happens.
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My reading of the OP is that he is not looking to become an "Acoustics Consultant" or provide acoustics services to design large concert halls or other performance venues, but rather to learn more about sound.
That may be but...
For any of you who are professional acoustics consultants, how did you learn what you know about acoustics? Did you go to school? Do your own research? Apprentice under others?
I ask because I have a desire to learn more about sound and my knowledge of acoustics, especially in regard to large spaces, is rather limited.
...seems to be someone specifically asking professional acoustical consultants about how they learned about large room acoustics. I agree that may be an important distinction as there can be a difference between learning about something in a manner that may be beneficial and wanting to be sufficiently qualified to provide related professional services.
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My reading of the OP is that he is not looking to become an "Acoustics Consultant" or provide acoustics services to design large concert halls or other performance venues, but rather to learn more about sound.
Correct.
In the 9 days since the OP, we have not heard back from him.
Actually, the only reason I hadn't responded was because I didn't realize there had been any more than the first two replies, which were a lot to chew on and I didn't have a good response for. Plus I don't check this site daily because it's not terribly active.
There are many levels at which to understand sound, or to apply that understanding. I think before we recommend a whole sequence of courses in ordinary and partial differential equations and physics of harmonic systems, degrees in engineering and physics, haircuts, knowledge of business ethics or other such unpleasantries, or even which fun acoustics and sound books to read, it would be good for the OP to give us a little more detail about at what level he wants to understand sound, what his math and physics background is, and what he wants to do with his increased knowledge of sound.
I have no problem giving more detail.
I am a volunteer sound tech at my church. I've attended the church for about 12 years and have been doing sound there for the last 3 (almost 4) years. Before I started doing sound there I didn't know anything about EQ, compression, gating, speakers, crossovers, acoustics, or really anything else related to sound. Through some training by our former lead sound tech and a lot of my own research, I've learned quite a lot and feel I have a solid understanding of most of the afformentioned areas.
I am currently studying to be a computer science major. I'm not too far along that path but I'm just about certain that it's what I want to do. At first I wanted to be a video game designer, now I've grown an interest in computers and technology as well as sound equipment like digital mixers. As a software developer I feel I could get involved in a number of different fields I'm interested in.
The reason I want to know more about acoustics is because I want to at least have a vague idea of how to address any acoustics issues we are having at my church and be able to give some advice in how to setup the system and room in future buildings (this is our second building and we plan on moving again soon). That coupled with my own general curiosity of the subject.
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If you are mostly interested in adding to your own knowledge for the sake of knowing more, consider taking a course or two in acoustical physics, even if you just audit them. Be somewhat careful of stuff you come across online unless you can verify the person/source is actually legitimate. Many "experts" (even on this site) are actually low-level wannabe's who could hardly be categorized as experts, but really come across as knowledgeable. Most of the time the true pros here will call out the pretenders and keep the BS to a minimum, which is why some of the responses you get may seem harsh.
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I am a volunteer sound tech at my church. I've attended the church for about 12 years and have been doing sound there for the last 3 (almost 4) years. Before I started doing sound there I didn't know anything about EQ, compression, gating, speakers, crossovers, acoustics, or really anything else related to sound. Through some training by our former lead sound tech and a lot of my own research, I've learned quite a lot and feel I have a solid understanding of most of the afformentioned areas.
A basic understanding of architectural acoustics and audio system design considerations will certainly help in your role. Infocomm, AES and WFX usually offer some some classes in architectural acoustics at their shows. Some local groups may as well, I know that here the Georgia Baptist Convention has an annual worship technology gathering that has included classes on acoustics. Some of the SynAudCon offerings may be worthwhile both to reinforce your current understanding and to potentially move beyond that with offerings such as the Sound Reinforcement for Designers course. And there are many good books on architectural acoustics, http://www.mcsquared.com/amazon.htm (http://www.mcsquared.com/amazon.htm) has a good list for a starting point.
The reason I want to know more about acoustics is because I want to at least have a vague idea of how to address any acoustics issues we are having at my church and be able to give some advice in how to setup the system and room in future buildings (this is our second building and we plan on moving again soon). That coupled with my own general curiosity of the subject.
This is where my previous comments may apply. What may be involved in satisfying your own curiosity and improving your mixing and system operation skills may be quite different than what would be appropriate for what might effectively be providing professional design services. Please do not believe in or perpetuate the concept that someone can gain sufficient knowledge and expertise in acoustics and audio system design from reading a couple of books or attending a class to be qualified to offer or provide related professional services.
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This is where my previous comments may apply. What may be involved in satisfying your own curiosity and improving your mixing and system operation skills may be quite different than what would be appropriate for what might effectively be providing professional design services. Please do not believe in or perpetuate the concept that someone can gain sufficient knowledge and expertise in acoustics and audio system design from reading a couple of books or attending a class to be qualified to offer or provide related professional services.
My church has thus far been quite hesitant to pay the money to bring professionals in. I have yet to convince them that it is worth it to bring in one to design a speaker system, to find the ideal placement for the speakers, or to acoustically treat the room. So, if they decide not to ever pay for such services, I'd like to at least know enough to "get by", so that we don't wind up making some bad mistakes.
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My church has thus far been quite hesitant to pay the money to bring professionals in. I have yet to convince them that it is worth it to bring in one to design a speaker system, to find the ideal placement for the speakers, or to acoustically treat the room. So, if they decide not to ever pay for such services, I'd like to at least know enough to "get by", so that we don't wind up making some bad mistakes.
That kinda sounds like "I feel sick-but don't want to pay for a doctors visit-can you recommend a book that can tell me what is wrong-so that I can try to fix myself".
Some things are simple and others are a lot more complicated. it really depends on what the specific problem is.
Like with acoustic treatment-is the problem trying to "tame the room down a bit" or a specific reflection that is causing problems in the room-and is that problem a reflection causing a cancellation or a descrete echo?
Of which both problems may be fixed by changing the loudspeaker position-aiming or type.
WIthout knowing a lot more specific information-it is really hard to figure out what a proper solution might be-just like the medical doctor. Sorry.
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That kinda sounds like "I feel sick-but don't want to pay for a doctors visit-can you recommend a book that can tell me what is wrong-so that I can try to fix myself".
Some things are simple and others are a lot more complicated. it really depends on what the specific problem is.
Like with acoustic treatment-is the problem trying to "tame the room down a bit" or a specific reflection that is causing problems in the room-and is that problem a reflection causing a cancellation or a descrete echo?
Of which both problems may be fixed by changing the loudspeaker position-aiming or type.
WIthout knowing a lot more specific information-it is really hard to figure out what a proper solution might be-just like the medical doctor. Sorry.
Actually for me I'd always rather try a home remedy than go to the doctor. Haven't been to a hospital in probably 12 years. But that's beside the point.
I'm not asking for you guys to try and diagnose any issues (had a big thread already in the church sound sub-forum that wound up going nowhere). Although FWIW "taming the room down a bit" is what I'm going for, as well as removing major peaks and nulls.
I am fully aware that there is a right way of doing things and that it's better to do things the right way, but the people I work with are pretty set in their ways. If they don't want to hire a professional I'm stuck with whatever I know how to do and whatever they'll let me do.
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My church has thus far been quite hesitant to pay the money to bring professionals in. I have yet to convince them that it is worth it to bring in one to design a speaker system, to find the ideal placement for the speakers, or to acoustically treat the room. So, if they decide not to ever pay for such services, I'd like to at least know enough to "get by", so that we don't wind up making some bad mistakes.
Your crusade for better sound seems to be pretty much an individual quest. If they don't want to pay for improvements, let them go their merry way and find someone else to save from folly.
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Your crusade for better sound seems to be pretty much an individual quest. If they don't want to pay for improvements, let them go their merry way and find someone else to save from folly.
I'm not going to leave this church. These people are like family to me, and they're actually really great people, they're just a bit misguided when it comes to sound.
They have a skewed idea of worth when it comes to sound. They would rather spend $10,000 on new speakers and hang them up wherever they look best than pay a couple hundred dollars to have a professional come in and properly install a less expensive system. They'd rather throw some "acoustic panels" up on the ceiling (they haven't yet, thankfully...) than have an acoustics consultant come in and tell us the proper way to combat the issues we have with the room.
They've talked a lot to this guy who has a church in Washington who's pretty experienced in the area of sound. They trust his opinion on things. If I could get him or someone like him to come down and tell them what I've been trying to for so long maybe they'd listen. I don't know.
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I'm not going to leave this church. These people are like family to me, and they're actually really great people, they're just a bit misguided when it comes to sound.
They have a skewed idea of worth when it comes to sound. They would rather spend $10,000 on new speakers and hang them up wherever they look best than pay a couple hundred dollars to have a professional come in and properly install a less expensive system. They'd rather throw some "acoustic panels" up on the ceiling (they haven't yet, thankfully...) than have an acoustics consultant come in and tell us the proper way to combat the issues we have with the room.
They've talked a lot to this guy who has a church in Washington who's pretty experienced in the area of sound. They trust his opinion on things. If I could get him or someone like him to come down and tell them what I've been trying to for so long maybe they'd listen. I don't know.
Jason.......
Some rules of life:
1. You can't do anyone any favors.
2. No good deed goes unpunished.
3. The messenger will be the first casualty.
Fair? No.
Human? Yup.
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Well, while we're on the subject;
Assuming they do decide, once we move to our next building, to actually take my advice and have a consultant involved in the planning stages from the very beginning, who would you guys recommend?
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as well as removing major peaks and nulls.
That statement is a HUGE undertaking-with quite a bit of both acoustics and sound systems.
FIRST you have to accurately identify the areas that have problems-and then try to determine what is causing those "peaks and nulls".
THEN you have to figure out what sort of approach (electrical or acoustical) would be best to solve/fix it.
While it 'sounds simple" it is FAR from it. Some things you simply can't do anything about-short of tearing down the building-AND YES I HAVE told churches that they have built a STUPID room and the best thing is to tear it down and start over.
There is NO simple answer for that problem-usually-but who knows-maybe you will be lucky.
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Well, while we're on the subject;
Assuming they do decide, once we move to our next building, to actually take my advice and have a consultant involved in the planning stages from the very beginning, who would you guys recommend?
as it so happens, after a conversation with our Senior Pastor today, my church has finally decided to budget some money to have someone come in and look at our room and recommend some fixes. i spent 20 years doing sound reinforcement, so i'm pretty qualified to deploy and tune the rig, but that doesn't mean i know much about room treatments. all my work was pretty much run and gun. i never had the luxury of fixing the room.
anyway, i'm now asking the same question. i'm located in frederick, MD [near washington DC]. would anyone have a recommendation for someone to call? i know lots of production guys, but no acoustical consultants, so i'm looking for any recommendation you can make.
jason, sorry if i'm hijacking your thread. i'm hoping the answer to my question will also assist in your endeavor as well.
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Or even stepping back from specific companies to recommend, what sort of questions should we be asking in order to distinguish a good consultant from a bad one?
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Or even stepping back from specific companies to recommend, what sort of questions should we be asking in order to distinguish a good consultant from a bad one?
Ask for referrals to previous clients you can contact for references.
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Jason, your situation is all to common and it is surprising how many churches will say that the primary mission of their worship spaces relates directly to communications but they then try to cut corners or 'make do' regarding the acoustics, audio and video systems for the space.
Audio and media presentation are no longer 'add ons', they are often integral to the purpose and function of the space, yet many people appear to continue to perceive the related provisions and systems as an afterthought or something you add to a space rather than as an integrated element. The acoustics are directly releavnt to the basic space design (room shaping, room volume, space planning, etc.) and the audio, video and specialty lighting system are integrated building systems just like heating and air conditioning, power, architectural lighting, plumbing, etc. Just because there are no legal requirements for using audio and acoustics design professionals does not diminish the potential need for or value of proper consideration and design of those aspects any more than it does for any other area of the building design and construction.
There is value in your having related knowledge, but it is disappointing to see how many churches seem to not even think about acoustics, audio, video and lighting until after the Architects, Mechanical and Electrical Engineers and even Interior Designers have all already completed much of their work. The only ones who can change things by not supporting such a perspective and educating others is folks like us. If we start supporting it being an acceptable approach then that will most likely just perpetuate the problems.
So instead of letting others believe they can continue along the same path and then trying to cover for them, think about using the situation to make a point that such an approach is not effective and they should get qualified people involved and get them involved at an appropriate time.
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Jason, your situation is all to common and it is surprising how many churches will say that the primary mission of their worship spaces relates directly to communications but they then try to cut corners or 'make do' regarding the acoustics, audio and video systems for the space.
PREACH IT BRO'.
It is amazing to me how many churches forget that the MAIN reason for going to church is to HEAR THE WORD!!!!
Yet they do all sorts of things (budget-limitations on placement etc) to keep that from happening. They just think you can "put some speakers" in the room and all will be fine-NOT!
They will dump all kinds of money into other things-but somehow just can't find the money to make the acoustics or the sound system work properly. So we have to make do with what limitations we have.
They forget what the priorities are.
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Or even stepping back from specific companies to recommend, what sort of questions should we be asking in order to distinguish a good consultant from a bad one?
As Dick noted, references can be good although it is important that the references be able to provide an accurate assessment. I have had cases where people called and spoke with someone who did not know all the details only to end up being blamed for problems that had nothing to do with our work and in one case getting blamed for the results of work that was actually cut out of our scope and given to someone else (something I established only after we had lost the new work as a result of that reference).
In general, there are three areas you may want to assess. One is technical competence, the second is relevant experience and the third is simply how well you 'click'. That latter can be very important as you want your consultant to share your vision and goals and to be able to work well with you.
Also consider how their experience translates to your project and that the number of churches they have worked on may not be all that matters. The situations and relationships on their past projects may be relevant or you may want to bring elements of another type of venue such as a theatre or club to your space in which case their experience in those other areas may matter. I've seen some consultants who crank out projects in 'cookie cutter' fashion and who thus have a huge number of project references, but that may be an approach which may or may not work for you.
Depending on the size of the firm you may also want to verify that the qualifications and personnel being presented will actually be involved. It's easy for some firms to present all sorts of qualifications, references, experience, etc., none of which then end up being relevant to the people that actually work on your project. In the case of some large Consultants and Contractors I've seen cases where the qualifications submitted didn't even have anything to do with the office involved, I once had a Contractor submit that they had all the required certifications and personnel only to find out that they were all associated with another office in a different state that would not actually be involved with the project.
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As Dick noted, references can be good although it is important that the references be able to provide an accurate assessment
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In general, there are three areas you may want to assess. One is technical competence, the second is relevant experience and the third is simply how well you 'click'. That latter can be very important as you want your consultant to share your vision and goals and to be able to work well with you.
I think in the case of a bad reference (or what looks like a bad job if local enough for me to have a look at) I'd at least be taking the contractor's side of the story into account as well.
On the "technical competence" aspect... that's really the core of my earlier question. For those of us who don't have any degrees or certification in acoustics, what do we need to know in order to properly evaluate technical competence, or pick between two treatment proposals that seem pretty different?
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I think Dick got to the essence of the question suggesting to get references of prior clients of the consultants. I don't think it is realistic to expect to learn enough acoustics to be able to judge, based on your new knowledge of acoustics, the better acoustics consultant or the better advice from a field of 2 or 3 different competent consultants. Looking at end results would be much more realistic and more helpful. References could be very helpful, also if you can go and see (hear) one or several of the completed projects of the consultant(s), that would seem to me to be another valuable source of information for a non-acoustician to judge which acoustics consultant to hire.
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I think Dick got to the essence of the question suggesting to get references of prior clients of the consultants. I don't think it is realistic to expect to learn enough acoustics to be able to judge, based on your new knowledge of acoustics, the better acoustics consultant or the better advice from a field of 2 or 3 different competent consultants. Looking at end results would be much more realistic and more helpful. References could be very helpful, also if you can go and see (hear) one or several of the completed projects of the consultant(s), that would seem to me to be another valuable source of information for a non-acoustician to judge which acoustics consultant to hire.
The reality is that the results of acoustical consulting often reflect not just the quality of the consultant's work but also when and how the consultant was involved, what budgetary or other limitations applied, how much of what they recommended was implemented (and conversely how much of what was implemented they had recommended) and how well their recommendations were implemented.
Another factor to consider is whether any references actually relate to the people who would be involved. I know of a consultant that provides a good number of representative projects and references for which the majority of those projects represent the work and expertise of inviduals who left that company 5 to 10 years ago, many of whom are now at other consulting firms. It's not unusual for a consultant to be competing for work and have their own past work used as a reference by a competing firm.
The point is that the results for past projects as well as for your project are often a factor of more than just the technical competence of the acoustical consulting firm. Whether a good or bad example, determining not just who was involved by how they were involved, what considerations may have been applied and how closely the implementation represents what was recommended can also provide valuable information on not just the consultants but how to involve them effectively.