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Title: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: claude cascioli on July 15, 2014, 05:26:18 PM
i have been in the audio businuess since 1974 i have used eaw,jbl,turbosound and many other speakers. any for many years owned a bunch of bose 802 speakers. about i had a crazy weekend with no time to reload trucks and my weekend was all pa on a stick jobs lot of high school commencements. came sunday i had to setup sound for pride fest in new york city at 9am after working till 11 the night before so i said what the hell ill use the bose with my double 18 subs what the worst that could happen not loud enough but i had 18 in the truck. so on sunday i stacked 6 perside of the stage and 2 jbl 728 subs. on the ground and was i shocked.my client came over there complaining 2 blocks away turn it down. so i walked down the block and i was amazed it was loud and clear
the end of the day my client said wow. the sound was great and most of the music was house and no one compained. the next day i had to supply for the queens symphony in astoria queens new york for about 10,000 people for that gig we setup 12 in the front 6 perside of stage and 4 about 200ft from the stage we also used 4 jbls 728s(2 perside) ran the rears full range again i was shocked to find that i had plenty of sound . they were powerd with qsc pl230s and qsc 4.0 for the subs . bose speakers are great speakers the problem is people dont know how to use them. if you want to use a pair for a rock band forget it. but when you start stacking them they couple like you would not belive. and when you stack 4 or more you have a bunch of drivers working together and without phaseing cancellation. and the big atvantige of this is if you are a small company like mine you have one speaker that you can use for every need with out the need to have different  systems. and they stack nicely and are 100% waterproof and you dont need ten guys to setup if you need to setup high on a scaffold. but there is a few drawbacks they cost about 800.00 per box they are power hungry but the trade off is they dont blowup easly i have mine since 2006 used them about 200 times and have not blown a single driver and a nice thing is when you stack them 6 high you can run the lower ones at a lower volume so you wont blow away the listeners in the front rows. use them the right way i also use a smaller setup with a single 18 sub perside and 2 on a stand and it works great for weddings and indoor shows and being they dont have horns the high end wont rip your head off. and they work great as monitors due to that. and another plus is they have a wide coverage angle so no need to use many speakers to cover an area 100ft wide and the 402 also work great. so if you are starting out this speaker would make a great choice
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Spenser Hamilton on July 15, 2014, 05:42:27 PM
i have been in the audio businuess since 1974 i have used eaw,jbl,turbosound and many other speakers. any for many years owned a bunch of bose 802 speakers. about i had a crazy weekend with no time to reload trucks and my weekend was all pa on a stick jobs lot of high school commencements. came sunday i had to setup sound for pride fest in new york city at 9am after working till 11 the night before so i said what the hell ill use the bose with my double 18 subs what the worst that could happen not loud enough but i had 18 in the truck. so on sunday i stacked 6 perside of the stage and 2 jbl 728 subs. on the ground and was i shocked.my client came over there complaining 2 blocks away turn it down. so i walked down the block and i was amazed it was loud and clear
the end of the day my client said wow. the sound was great and most of the music was house and no one compained. the next day i had to supply for the queens symphony in astoria queens new york for about 10,000 people for that gig we setup 12 in the front 6 perside of stage and 4 about 200ft from the stage we also used 4 jbls 728s(2 perside) ran the rears full range again i was shocked to find that i had plenty of sound . they were powerd with qsc pl230s and qsc 4.0 for the subs . bose speakers are great speakers the problem is people dont know how to use them. if you want to use a pair for a rock band forget it. but when you start stacking them they couple like you would not belive. and when you stack 4 or more you have a bunch of drivers working together and without phaseing cancellation. and the big atvantige of this is if you are a small company like mine you have one speaker that you can use for every need with out the need to have different  systems. and they stack nicely and are 100% waterproof and you dont need ten guys to setup if you need to setup high on a scaffold. but there is a few drawbacks they cost about 800.00 per box they are power hungry but the trade off is they dont blowup easly i have mine since 2006 used them about 200 times and have not blown a single driver and a nice thing is when you stack them 6 high you can run the lower ones at a lower volume so you wont blow away the listeners in the front rows. use them the right way i also use a smaller setup with a single 18 sub perside and 2 on a stand and it works great for weddings and indoor shows and being they dont have horns the high end wont rip your head off. and they work great as monitors due to that. and another plus is they have a wide coverage angle so no need to use many speakers to cover an area 100ft wide and the 402 also work great. so if you are starting out this speaker would make a great choice

You are the Ying to the AllCAPSLOCK Yang.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on July 15, 2014, 07:02:48 PM
The Bose 802 will have strong midrange output but not likely a very phase coherent sound. I would expect the high end to be a little soft and the bass transition a matter of chance. 

I wouldn't sell your subs just yet.

JR
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Ivan Beaver on July 15, 2014, 08:04:03 PM
The Bose 802 will have strong midrange output but not likely a very phase coherent sound. I would expect the high end to be a little soft and the bass transition a matter of chance. 

I wouldn't sell your subs just yet.

JR
It all "depends" on what one is looking for in a sound system-what their expectations are-what their reference is and so forth.

There is more to good sound than just "loud".  Loud is easy. 

Quality-not so easy.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Richard Turner on July 15, 2014, 11:32:52 PM
I had 12 of them for many years  And yes 8 or more would put out plenty if you had enough amp to drive them. Absolutly horrible sound as a single pair on sticks  and totally worthless without the processor box.

I had the version II so from 90's to 2000 vintage.  Sounded much better and played better together than the yorkville self powered boxes that replaced them. I would have lept on with them but oppourtunity arose to sell them installed and local competiton was poisoning clients against them.

If your patient you can pick up single pairs cheaply as most who bought one pair didnt buy the processor and thought they could get away without it.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Steve M Smith on July 16, 2014, 02:48:26 AM
Absolutly horrible sound as a single pair on sticks  and totally worthless without the processor box.

Which flattens out the rsponse to make it equally bad at all frequencies!


Steve.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Ivan Beaver on July 16, 2014, 07:32:03 AM
Which flattens out the rsponse to make it equally bad at all frequencies!


Steve.
Just do a transfer function of the processor to get an idea of what is going on.  Can you say "SMILE"
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on July 16, 2014, 10:29:04 AM
The original 901 actually had a design premise, 11% direct sound, 89% diffuse reflected sound to mimic the sound received in the audience of a symphony hall. The 802 was a repurposed 901 as a direct radiator, but still a diffuse direct radiator, so it mainly makes sound energy. The companion processor was not just a smiley face, but correcting for the relatively high tuning of the modest sized cabinet. I think they may have added a port to later versions to lower the box tuning somewhat. The high end boost was required because of using midrange drivers for full range.

The consumer processor offered several different response curves so you could indeed dial in a happy face on to top of nominally flat and I'm sure many consumers did.   

JR
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Steve M Smith on July 16, 2014, 10:49:10 AM
Back in the late 80s or early 90s, I attended a combined sales and training event hosted by Peavey.  Part of the demonstration was comparing a Bose 802 with a Peavey speaker (a CL2 Cluster I think)  both with and without the Bose 'processor'  The difference was quite amazing.


Steve.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on July 16, 2014, 10:54:19 AM
It's been a number of years since I've heard 802s, but IMO with the processor they sounded better than the average low-to-mid-end PA cab as generally deployed with no EQ - in other words, the processor for the 802s produced a result better than the typical un-processed PA cab.

I measured the processor with my RTA and couldn't fit the whole smile on the screen at once - the difference between the bottom of the grand canyon and HF and LF peaks is something like 30dB; part of the reason that you can't fix them with the average +/-12dB graphic EQ.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on July 16, 2014, 11:24:28 AM
It's been a number of years since I've heard 802s, but IMO with the processor they sounded better than the average low-to-mid-end PA cab as generally deployed with no EQ - in other words, the processor for the 802s produced a result better than the typical un-processed PA cab.

I measured the processor with my RTA and couldn't fit the whole smile on the screen at once - the difference between the bottom of the grand canyon and HF and LF peaks is something like 30dB; part of the reason that you can't fix them with the average +/-12dB graphic EQ.

Another consideration when applying that much EQ boost is that it requires extra amplifier headroom.

JR
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Ivan Beaver on July 16, 2014, 12:12:03 PM
Another consideration when applying that much EQ boost is that it requires extra amplifier headroom.

JR
But that may be part of it.

Once you run out of amp headroom-you get distortion (on amps that don't have a clip eliminator), which adds harmonics which some people associate with high freq.

Just like the aphex aural exciter-clip the signal real bad-highpass the result and mix it back in with the original signal to "appear" to get more highs.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Mark McFarlane on July 16, 2014, 12:33:19 PM
I did a consulting gig this week at a school.  8-802s, 4 mounted at the ceiling along each long side the rectangle, pointing straight across the gym at the opposite ceiling/wall intersection, no processing.  There were also 4 Yamaha 15" 2-ways. All 12 speakers were hooked up to a single stereo amp through 3 or 4 cables. Unknown wiring , unknown polarity,...

They also had a cheap single Behringer 8" or 10" active speaker in the closet. The Behringer covered the gym better, and sounded MUCH better than the 802s without processing, everyone was amazed (except me).

I've also run into 802's where the processor is in the rack, just not connected to anything.  Just hook up the processor and everyone goes 'Wow', I guess we don't need to replace the system.

My favorite gig was a performance/movie theatre, huge QSC 3-way theatre install speakers for LCR.  A wonderful 3U computer programmable QSC DSP in the rack, with instructions for the projectionist to turn the DSP on before showing a movie.  The only cable going into the QSC DSP was the IEC cord.  No crossovers. All 3 drivers (3-way) were wired in parallel to a single amp channel.  Center channel had the horn laying on its side, so the wide coverage was from floor to ceiling down the center seats.

I think they paid 250K for the install, and when presented with my finding the contractor said 'everything was fine', they had RTA-tuned the system with the Dolby processor in the projection booth.  QSC speced something like 1.5ms delay between drivers,... Even the sub, mounted 25' behind the screen, was full band, you could hear vocals coming out of it) Its about 5 years later and the system is still the same.  When I work the venue a few times a year I always take my own rig and charge extra.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Keith Erickson on July 16, 2014, 12:41:57 PM
Here is the response curve for the Bose 802 Crown PIP card module.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Tommy Peel on July 16, 2014, 12:44:21 PM
My favorite gig was a performance/movie theatre, huge QSC 3-way theatre install speakers for LCR.  A wonderful 3U computer programmable QSC DSP in the rack, with instructions for the projectionist to turn the DSP on before showing a movie.  The only cable going into the QSC DSP was the IEC cord.  No crossovers. All 3 drivers (3-way) were wired in parallel to a single amp channel.  Center channel had the horn laying on its side, so the wide coverage was from floor to ceiling down the center seats.

I think they paid 250K for the install, and when presented with my finding the contractor said 'everything was fine', they had RTA-tuned the system with the Dolby processor in the projection booth.  QSC speced something like 1.5ms delay between drivers,... Even the sub, mounted 25' behind the screen, was full band, you could hear vocals coming out of it) Its about 5 years later and the system is still the same.  When I work the venue a few times a year I always take my own rig and charge extra.

(http://i.imgur.com/7eFae76.jpg)

Couldn't resist.....  ;D
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 16, 2014, 05:50:31 PM
I've been on disability for about 4 weeks now and last Saturday was having a decent day, so I asked my wife and daughter to go to the pizza joint less than a block away for a pizza and to just get the fuck out of the house for the first time in weeks. I expected to be at the joint for an hour or so.

When we got to the place a DJ was setting up for karaoke and starting at 7pm. The place was full of his friends including young kids, and looking for some quiet time and a slice of pizza this gave me a bad feeling about being there. Now the worst case happens and the DJ recognizes me, comes over and then starts in on his wonder system, complete with, you guessed it Bose 802s. He starts into his spiel and I start slipping into a coma. He wants me to look at the system to which I politely decline based on health reasons. He starts his scaryoke and more sure than a shit the biggest fattest 12 year old I've ever seen grabs a mic and starts singing the fucking song to frozen or whatever that movie is.

OK, so now you get the picture, and the point is this. The 802 is the worst sounding cabinet on the face of the planet regardless of number used, regardless of how many times I've heard them, and regardless of processing or processor type. On top of that allowing people to use them for karaoke should be considered a crime against humanity punishable by death. I actually felt worse when I got home and now can't even type the word pizza without feeling more ill than I already am.
 
And the kid was ugly too.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Ray Aberle on July 16, 2014, 06:13:08 PM
I've been on disability for about 4 weeks now and last Saturday was having a decent day, so I asked my wife and daughter to go to the pizza joint less than a block away for a pizza and to just get the fuck out of the house for the first time in weeks. I expected to be at the joint for an hour or so.

When we got to the place a DJ was setting up for karaoke and starting at 7pm. The place was full of his friends including young kids, and looking for some quiet time and a slice of pizza this gave me a bad feeling about being there. Now the worst case happens and the DJ recognizes me, comes over and then starts in on his wonder system, complete with, you guessed it Bose 802s. He starts into his spiel and I start slipping into a coma. He wants me to look at the system to which I politely decline based on health reasons. He starts his scaryoke and more sure than a shit the biggest fattest 12 year old I've ever seen grabs a mic and starts singing the fucking song to frozen or whatever that movie is.

OK, so now you get the picture, and the point is this. The 802 is the worst sounding cabinet on the face of the planet regardless of number used, regardless of how many times I've heard them, and regardless of processing or processor type. On top of that allowing people to use them for karaoke should be considered a crime against humanity punishable by death. I actually felt worse when I got home and now can't even type the word pizza without feeling more ill than I already am.
 
And the kid was ugly too.

Bob, you are amazing.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Mike Christy on July 16, 2014, 06:49:08 PM
Bob, you are amazing.

God Bless Bob Leonard.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Thomas Le on July 16, 2014, 07:20:52 PM
(Raises hand) I'll have whatever OP's having...
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Scott Holtzman on July 16, 2014, 07:44:27 PM
Bob, Best laugh I had all day. We will keep you in our prayers during your recovery.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on July 16, 2014, 08:21:07 PM
Get well Bobster,

JR
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Tim McCulloch on July 16, 2014, 08:22:38 PM
I've been on disability for about 4 weeks now and last Saturday was having a decent day, so I asked my wife and daughter to go to the pizza joint less than a block away for a pizza and to just get the fuck out of the house for the first time in weeks. I expected to be at the joint for an hour or so.

When we got to the place a DJ was setting up for karaoke and starting at 7pm. The place was full of his friends including young kids, and looking for some quiet time and a slice of pizza this gave me a bad feeling about being there. Now the worst case happens and the DJ recognizes me, comes over and then starts in on his wonder system, complete with, you guessed it Bose 802s. He starts into his spiel and I start slipping into a coma. He wants me to look at the system to which I politely decline based on health reasons. He starts his scaryoke and more sure than a shit the biggest fattest 12 year old I've ever seen grabs a mic and starts singing the fucking song to frozen or whatever that movie is.

OK, so now you get the picture, and the point is this. The 802 is the worst sounding cabinet on the face of the planet regardless of number used, regardless of how many times I've heard them, and regardless of processing or processor type. On top of that allowing people to use them for karaoke should be considered a crime against humanity punishable by death. I actually felt worse when I got home and now can't even type the word pizza without feeling more ill than I already am.
 
And the kid was ugly too.

I bet you're a barrel of laffs on vacation, Bob...  Get your ass back to work. :)
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Steve M Smith on July 17, 2014, 01:41:22 AM
The 802 is the worst sounding cabinet on the face of the planet

I think you are over rating them,  They're not that good!


Steve.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Robert Lunceford on July 17, 2014, 02:39:59 AM
There are people on this forum that have also been critical of the L1 line of Bose systems.

http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/guitar_tech_andre_cholmondeley_utilizes_bose_pro_l1_system_for_greg_lake_ad/news
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Kurt Nyberg on July 17, 2014, 02:18:15 PM
BOSE 802's and 402's are outdated. So is the Land Rover Defender, a car that uses aged technology and which is easily outperformed by far cheaper 4x4 models. Yet people keep buying it, why because it is durable and has proven the test of time.
Nobody who buys the Defender will expect this car to beat a Porsche Cayenne in acceleration, economy or comfort but surprisingly the Defender will still prove more durable. However a guy who does expect his Defender to drive as fast as a Porsche Cayenne will be laughed at. So would he be laughed at if he tries to place more passengers into his Defender than fit in a 24 seater bus or more cargo than fits into a 20 ton truck. Makes perfect sense.

I feel similar about individuals who procure these BOSE speakers for personal/professional live sound reinforcement and who expect them to sound exceptionally great in that context rather than truly understanding their weaknesses and strengths.

The 802's and 402's are durable, weather resistant install anywhere enclosures mostly used for networked and installed sound reinforcement in Hospitality sectors or Pubic places where short throw but wide coverage pattern and Hifi qualities are anticipated.

They are actually Not necessarily expensive in that context compared to Christie, EAW or Community networked install anywhere solutions. In combination with i.e. Crown amplification, the DSP and extended LF support through i.e. the 502's or MB4's they do provide a reasonable sound experience even at low volumes where horn loaded systems tend to sound either harsh or thin.

That said, I would likely not procure BOSE for install anywhere solutions unless I am on a limited budget I would prefer something by EAW such as the NT's.

PS: The L1's are very simple, well designed, plug and play pa systems and with the tone match engine ideal for individual musicians, presenters and stand up comedians who are hired for small gigs at any small Hospitality Venues. These systems are really not meant to be a replacement to truly durable professional high output touring pa rigs in any possible way! Nor will they make your next DJ gig an ear bashing experience. Again they only excel in a specific niche market like the 802's etc.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Jim McKeveny on July 17, 2014, 02:43:34 PM
I've got these A7s on the truck....
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Hayden J. Nebus on July 17, 2014, 04:19:36 PM
I've got these A7s on the truck....

Powered by Flame-Linear I hope.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Steve M Smith on July 17, 2014, 04:34:11 PM
Bob is wrong.  There is a worse speaker than the Bose 802.... The Bose 402.

(http://www.e-av.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/2/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/f/i/file_7_10.jpg)

A friend had a set of these.  They were truly dreadful.


Steve.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Rob Spence on July 17, 2014, 06:53:12 PM
Bob is wrong.  There is a worse speaker than the Bose 802.... The Bose 402.

(http://www.e-av.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/2/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/f/i/file_7_10.jpg)

A friend had a set of these.  They were truly dreadful.


Steve.

Depends on the application. You are using the correct controller too?

I have a pair at a clients dressage ring. Been there outdoors for 7 years or so and do the job.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Scott Holtzman on July 17, 2014, 10:19:56 PM
Depends on the application. You are using the correct controller too?

I have a pair at a clients dressage ring. Been there outdoors for 7 years or so and do the job.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Those look like 901 drivers.  I recall in my early audiophile days friends (or usually friends of my parents) would offer me a listen to their 901's.  I had even less tact back then and my comment was usually "those sound like shit" and ask them if they actually listened to them.  It didn't matter, I heard that powered by everything from a cheesy Technic's Receiver up to a truly lovely McIntosh.  They sound flat and lifeless.  At the tender age of 17 I already owned a pair of Ohm Walsh's, an Amber amplifier and a gorgeous Conrad Johnson tube preamp and a Grado moving coil catridge.  I knew what a soundstage sounded like and more important I knew what live music sounded like.

We now have a generation that thinks a lossy CODEC on an iPod and a set of beats headphones or a ridiculous sub in a car sounds good.  It is far less common to find someone with ears.  You can teach the mechanics, how you train ears I am not sure.  I just feel blessed to have grown up in an incredible time in the industry and to spend 35 years doing what I love. 

Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Tom Bourke on July 18, 2014, 01:36:28 AM
In my opinion the problem with Bose is that the cost is 10 times the value.  For any given Bose system I have used, or even heard, I could have done as good or better on way less money.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Keith Broughton on July 18, 2014, 07:15:46 AM
In my opinion the problem with Bose is that the cost is 10 times the value.  For any given Bose system I have used, or even heard, I could have done as good or better on way less money.
While I will agree that their "professional" stuff sounds like crap, I will have to admit that their small computer speakers sound quite amazing.
I picked up one of those Soundlink systems for audio in my hotel room when travelling.
Pretty good sound from such a small unit. Not hifi, to be sure, but quite acceptable.
I will admit that they are a bit pricey though!
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Steve M Smith on July 18, 2014, 07:30:42 AM
While I will agree that their "professional" stuff sounds like crap, I will have to admit that their small computer speakers sound quite amazing.

That's true.  It's as if they are two separate companies.


Steve.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Nitin Sidhu on July 18, 2014, 07:45:44 AM
That's true.  It's as if they are two separate companies.


Steve.

After listening a lot out there, I bought the Bose companion 20 computer speaker for my worktable.
they sound stellar!

And i happened to hear the bose in-ears also, and thought they were fantastic! would prolly be picked a pair up soon.

Sidhu
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Richard Turner on July 18, 2014, 08:02:16 AM
I'd take the 802 with processor any day over most any peavey impulse, yamaha club series, carvin, phonic, behringer, insert generic speaker on a stick here

They are a tired old grey mule but feed them enough oats and they may just fet the back 40 plowed one more time.

I remember a late 80's cut sheet from bose it had a silly sized array of 802 with some sub modules stacked up and photos of a speaking event >80k in attendance . The text was hyping the intelligible sound that could be heard close to 2 miles back. At the time I'd guess it was a worthwhile SYSTEM.

the bose stuff has always been sold as a processor controlled system, I'm no fan boy but not a hater either. Give me enough of them and enough amperage to drive them and you will get a better than average show. 2 or 4 on sticks you cannot expect much.


And don't go mixing the 402 and 802 drivers, they are different part numbers for a reason and there actually is a passive filter network in the box that is dependant on the low ohm voice coils to do its thing properly.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Cailen Waddell on July 18, 2014, 09:02:31 AM

I'd take the 802 with processor any day over most any peavey impulse, yamaha club series, carvin, phonic, behringer, insert generic speaker on a stick here

They are a tired old grey mule but feed them enough oats and they may just fet the back 40 plowed one more time.

I remember a late 80's cut sheet from bose it had a silly sized array of 802 with some sub modules stacked up and photos of a speaking event >80k in attendance . The text was hyping the intelligible sound that could be heard close to 2 miles back. At the time I'd guess it was a worthwhile SYSTEM.

the bose stuff has always been sold as a processor controlled system, I'm no fan boy but not a hater either. Give me enough of them and enough amperage to drive them and you will get a better than average show. 2 or 4 on sticks you cannot expect much.


And don't go mixing the 402 and 802 drivers, they are different part numbers for a reason and there actually is a passive filter network in the box that is dependant on the low ohm voice coils to do its thing properly.

A Bose 802 is about $800. There are MANY superior speakers on sticks for that kind of money.  The JBL PRX612m comes to mind. 

I'd take the Bose over bottom of the barrel peavey or behringer too, but if we are comparing $, then no way....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on July 18, 2014, 10:13:14 AM
A Bose 802 is about $800. There are MANY superior speakers on sticks for that kind of money.  The JBL PRX612m comes to mind. 

I'd take the Bose over bottom of the barrel peavey or behringer too, but if we are comparing $, then no way....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Agreed.  There's no reason to buy an 802 system today in light of many better options, but I think the hatred in the thread for the 802s may be just a tiny bit over-hyped - they are not remotely the worst-sounding box I have encountered.  High praise for sure.  ::)

The Bose L1 on the other hand, deserves all the criticism possible.  It is over-priced, sounds terrible as generally deployed, and is significantly larger in a vehicle than a reasonable speaker like a QSC K10.  The marketing machine was really working overtime there.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Steve M Smith on July 18, 2014, 10:21:49 AM
Looks like it's time for a 'worst speaker ever made' thread!


Steve.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Brian Jojade on July 18, 2014, 10:57:46 AM
The biggest problem with BOSE systems is that they are usually deployed incorrectly.  When used correctly as designed, you can get pretty decent results. This is similar to why Peavey got a bad rap.  The speakers were cheap and rugged as hell so entry level bands bought them and made them sound as bad as possible.  Used correctly, you can get some pretty good results.

Now, with BOSE the COST to deploy the system properly ends up being much, much higher than other solutions that could provide equal or better results.  If you can pick up used gear at a good price, it can be worthwhile.

The L1 is an example of being used incorrectly most of the time.  In a small venue amplifying an acoustic instrument or small band, they work as good if not better than traditional systems.  The price is pretty high, and the portability of the design sucks, but the sound isn't horrible, again, if used properly. i.e., you can't cover 1000 people outdoors with a pair of sticks like I saw done last week. :-/
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Roland Clarke on July 18, 2014, 05:22:59 PM
I've used a small system comprising of 2 802's a side and the 302 bass bins that belongs to a local guy in a couple of small 200 capacity venues.  He has the processor on the rig a graphic foh and a 24 channel LX7.  Admittedly, the band was the James Hunter 6, who are a really good outfit, but the sound I was able to achieve was good by any standard.  I'm not trying to say that there aren't much better things out there, a nice little D&B Q rig would have been great, however, I didn''t feel that the sound I was getting was noticeably compromised.  Once again, operated sensibly, within their limits, they are capable of good results.  The talent in front of the mic's and the room are still the biggest factors.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Al Rubio, Jr on July 19, 2014, 05:38:13 AM
A personal anecdote from long-ago (early 80's to be precise)...
I remember the first "big gig" my first real band was booked to play... opening for a Doors tribute band at our local Civic Center ballroom.  Walked in for setup to find a HUGE Bose PA; and by huge, I mean there had to have been at least 30 802's per side.  Monitors were 402's nested in their upturned lids, with additional 402's as sidefills.  The "Gandalf-like" dude at the huge Yamaha board regaled us with stories of his life on the road with the likes of the Stones and such... but it was when we were listening to the headliners run through their soundcheck that we were struck by how loud and relatively clear this PA was compared to the typical Low, Mid, High (and sometimes superhigh) pyramided stacks we'd see and hear at the typical rock show that'd roll through town.  Now, being a 'greenhorn novice' at this point in my life... I had no way of quantifying any of the performance characteristics of this 'impressive' system.  BUT...
a few years later, I seem to recall seeing a pic in a music mag of some festival up around Chicago (IIRC) that supposedly documented Cheap Trick running through a similarly setup (but even larger) Bose PA, which only served to cement the experience in my mind.
Now, all that being said, I've also heard small arrays of a pair or three 802's set up to provide sound at small venues with very unfavorable results, so...   ;)
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Kurt Nyberg on July 19, 2014, 05:48:58 AM
I guess the multiplication was the trick here... similar to the vows of Hifi speaker brands like McIntosh.

It makes sense that the Hifi characteristics of the 802's were significantly amplified through component multiplication, possibly enough to resemble outputs of other professional PA rigs while still preserving their Hifi like sound at least in the near field.

But whether that is still economical... haha.. And it is unlikely that even with multiplication they'd ever be able to outshine the controlled coverage and long throw characteristics of horn loaded systems.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Kurt Nyberg on July 19, 2014, 05:53:02 AM
The "Wall of Sound" a system used by 'The Grateful Dead' (early 70s).
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Jim McKeveny on July 19, 2014, 07:03:46 AM
The original wood and tolex 801s sported the great "professional" virtues of low sensitivity and low power handling. 802s improved on these, but only marginally.

Current Bose pro installation products continue the tradition...
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Richard Turner on July 19, 2014, 08:45:13 AM
The biggest problem with BOSE systems is that they are usually deployed incorrectly.  When used correctly as designed, you can get pretty decent results. This is similar to why Peavey got a bad rap.  The speakers were cheap and rugged as hell so entry level bands bought them and made them sound as bad as possible.  Used correctly, you can get some pretty good results.

Now, with BOSE the COST to deploy the system properly ends up being much, much higher than other solutions that could provide equal or better results.  If you can pick up used gear at a good price, it can be worthwhile.

The L1 is an example of being used incorrectly most of the time.  In a small venue amplifying an acoustic instrument or small band, they work as good if not better than traditional systems.  The price is pretty high, and the portability of the design sucks, but the sound isn't horrible, again, if used properly. i.e., you can't cover 1000 people outdoors with a pair of sticks like I saw done last week. :-/

exactly, The L1 SYSTEM sounds  pretty decent when used for 1 vocal + 1 accoustic instrument in a small room and when dialed in and placed behind the talent it just feels more natural than a lot of PA on stick. Its musician friendly, somewhat unique in the MI segment of the marketplace and plays well with the giging guys/gals who just want something simple and really if you take into account its doubling as a guitar amp as well as vocal PA the price isn't all that horrible for someone working on a regular basis.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Robert Lunceford on July 19, 2014, 05:41:20 PM
Agreed.  There's no reason to buy an 802 system today in light of many better options, but I think the hatred in the thread for the 802s may be just a tiny bit over-hyped - they are not remotely the worst-sounding box I have encountered.  High praise for sure.  ::)

The Bose L1 on the other hand, deserves all the criticism possible.  It is over-priced, sounds terrible as generally deployed, and is significantly larger in a vehicle than a reasonable speaker like a QSC K10.  The marketing machine was really working overtime there.

The Bose L1 system has been used on stage by Todd Rundgren, The Steve Miller Band, Greg Lake, Pat Metheney....
Foreigner uses L1 systems exclusively for their intimate acoustic shows.
What is your personal experience using L1 systems that makes you state that it, "deserves all the criticism possible"?
What was the application you were using it for? Were you using it as it was designed to be used?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sibKEEBlfWs
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on July 19, 2014, 09:25:00 PM
The Bose L1 system has been used on stage by Todd Rundgren, The Steve Miller Band, Greg Lake, Pat Metheney....
Foreigner uses L1 systems exclusively for their intimate acoustic shows.
What is your personal experience using L1 systems that makes you state that it, "deserves all the criticism possible"?
What was the application you were using it for? Were you using it as it was designed to be used?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sibKEEBlfWs
And the other 99.9% of performers in the universe don't.  I don't have a ton of respect for marketing videos - there are lots of folks that for reasons other than technical merit choose to endorse products.

My experience with the Blowse L1 is consistent with most peoples': one unit attempted to be used by several band members, due to a group being unwilling to invest in $10,000 worth of Stonehenge to follow Bose's model.

Look - I get it - there are a few situations where the results are acceptable, however they are hardly ever used that way, and I submit that 90%+ of the time there is a better option for less money.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Caleb Dueck on July 19, 2014, 09:56:40 PM
Acceptable is a good term when it (they) are used as directed.  But better than a "real" system?   They wouldn't stir up much angst if their marketing portrayed them as a different, acceptable, solution within a narrow scope of applications.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on July 19, 2014, 10:23:37 PM
Acceptable is a good term when it (they) are used as directed.  But better than a "real" system?   They wouldn't stir up much angst if their marketing portrayed them as a different, acceptable, solution within a narrow scope of applications.

Puts me in mind of the disclaimers on those medication commercials...you know, "Use as directed.  Stop taking (**********) if you experience any of the following."

There follows a ghastly litany of side effects including DEATH.  But "safe" when used as directed...maybe.

Be safe.

Bring
Other
Sound
Equipment
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: paul bell on July 19, 2014, 11:49:10 PM
I've done a good amount of work with Bose speakers-REMOVING THEM AND REPLACING WITH BETTER GEAR.

I have a few Bose stories, here's one:

When remote controls started to become commonplace on sound gear, a Bose tech was sent out to a store and a remote control was purchased. It was opened, copied and the first Bose remote was based on it. The store bought one was re-assembled and returned for a refund.

No highs no lows must be Bose!
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 19, 2014, 11:52:32 PM
BOSE home products can do a decent job in a small room, just like on the Youtube video, a room much too small for almost any type pro system. The L1 does a nice job with intimate acts. That's what it was designed for and that's where it should stay.

I find it a shame that the BOSE boy's refuse to embrace anything but the original BOSE concept. I've been to BOSE, met some of those people ,and am quite sure they could come up with good and great cabinets IF they were allowed to stray from the BOSE path.

I have to respect their better judgment though having seen the chamber of death they would be subjected to for punishment. A chamber where a DJ and a really fat 12 year old girl standing waiting to punish those who dare. A fat girl so fat she has her own gravity, and where BOSE speakers float around her as if by magic as the DJ allows her to sing selections from popular children's movies out of tune while ingesting whole pizza's, making you watch and listen until your head explodes.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Ivan Beaver on July 20, 2014, 08:47:02 AM

Look - I get it - there are a few situations where the results are acceptable, however they are hardly ever used that way, and I submit that 90%+ of the time there is a better option for less money.
I remember a couple of years ago at a Infocomm show.

Our booth was probably 30' from the "lounge" area where they were giving out awards for audio merit.

I could not understand a SINGLE word that was said.

Now I know that 30' is a loooonnnnnnggggg way for sound to travel ;).

The problem?  They were using a pair of Bose L1s.

Now it was not the products fault-but rather the USAGE.

They were sitting on the floor-with people standing right up against them.

There was no way it was going to get through the crowd. 

AND THIS WAS AN AUDIO AWARDS CEREMONY!!!!!!!!!!!!

Any piece of crap speaker that was 7 or 8' in the air would have been MILES ahead of this.

It was quite funny to us.  NOT A CLUE is what comes to mind when i think of this.  Not even audio 101-get the speakers above the heads---------
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Stu McDoniel on July 20, 2014, 09:25:54 AM
I've been on disability for about 4 weeks now and last Saturday was having a decent day, so I asked my wife and daughter to go to the pizza joint less than a block away for a pizza and to just get the fuck out of the house for the first time in weeks. I expected to be at the joint for an hour or so.

When we got to the place a DJ was setting up for karaoke and starting at 7pm. The place was full of his friends including young kids, and looking for some quiet time and a slice of pizza this gave me a bad feeling about being there. Now the worst case happens and the DJ recognizes me, comes over and then starts in on his wonder system, complete with, you guessed it Bose 802s. He starts into his spiel and I start slipping into a coma. He wants me to look at the system to which I politely decline based on health reasons. He starts his scaryoke and more sure than a shit the biggest fattest 12 year old I've ever seen grabs a mic and starts singing the fucking song to frozen or whatever that movie is.

OK, so now you get the picture, and the point is this. The 802 is the worst sounding cabinet on the face of the planet regardless of number used, regardless of how many times I've heard them, and regardless of processing or processor type. On top of that allowing people to use them for karaoke should be considered a crime against humanity punishable by death. I actually felt worse when I got home and now can't even type the word pizza without feeling more ill than I already am.
 
And the kid was ugly too.
I remember the year 78,  Ozark Mountain Daredevils...Summerfest.....huge pile of Blose 802's on each side of them.  Absolutel terrible sound.   Thats what I remember of them.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Steve M Smith on July 20, 2014, 10:03:05 AM
allowing people to use them for karaoke should be considered a crime against humanity punishable by death.

Just putting on Karaoke should be punishable by death (or worse).

Which reminds me - A sign outside a local pub:

LIVE MUSIC TONIGHT

      KARAOKE



Steve.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Rob Spence on July 20, 2014, 11:26:32 AM
I've done a good amount of work with Bose speakers-REMOVING THEM AND REPLACING WITH BETTER GEAR.

I have a few Bose stories, here's one:

When remote controls started to become commonplace on sound gear, a Bose tech was sent out to a store and a remote control was purchased. It was opened, copied and the first Bose remote was based on it. The store bought one was re-assembled and returned for a refund.

No highs no lows must be Bose!


Some years ago I bought a Bose radio for the headboard in the bedroom.
Some bozo engineer thought it was important that many important functions of the radio could ONLY be controlled by the remote! The remote wasn't much bigger than a credit card. So, it found its way behind the headboard to the floor making the radio useless.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Scott Carneval on July 20, 2014, 02:19:55 PM
I've been on disability for about 4 weeks now and last Saturday was having a decent day, so I asked my wife and daughter to go to the pizza joint less than a block away for a pizza and to just get the fuck out of the house for the first time in weeks. I expected to be at the joint for an hour or so.

When we got to the place a DJ was setting up for karaoke and starting at 7pm. The place was full of his friends including young kids, and looking for some quiet time and a slice of pizza this gave me a bad feeling about being there. Now the worst case happens and the DJ recognizes me, comes over and then starts in on his wonder system, complete with, you guessed it Bose 802s. He starts into his spiel and I start slipping into a coma. He wants me to look at the system to which I politely decline based on health reasons. He starts his scaryoke and more sure than a shit the biggest fattest 12 year old I've ever seen grabs a mic and starts singing the fucking song to frozen or whatever that movie is.

OK, so now you get the picture, and the point is this. The 802 is the worst sounding cabinet on the face of the planet regardless of number used, regardless of how many times I've heard them, and regardless of processing or processor type. On top of that allowing people to use them for karaoke should be considered a crime against humanity punishable by death. I actually felt worse when I got home and now can't even type the word pizza without feeling more ill than I already am.
 
And the kid was ugly too.

I think that was the most amazing rant I've ever read on this forum.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Robert Lunceford on July 20, 2014, 02:57:31 PM
And the other 99.9% of performers in the universe don't.  I don't have a ton of respect for marketing videos - there are lots of folks that for reasons other than technical merit choose to endorse products.

My experience with the Blowse L1 is consistent with most peoples': one unit attempted to be used by several band members, due to a group being unwilling to invest in $10,000 worth of Stonehenge to follow Bose's model.

Look - I get it - there are a few situations where the results are acceptable, however they are hardly ever used that way, and I submit that 90%+ of the time there is a better option for less money.

99.9% of performers are not at the same level as Pat Metheney, Greg Lake, etc.
99.9% of performers don't use Danley products. What does this infer about Danley?

Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Ray Aberle on July 20, 2014, 03:33:11 PM
*grabs a bowl of popcorn*
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Tommy Peel on July 20, 2014, 03:58:52 PM
*grabs a bowl of popcorn*
Yep, I just thought this thread was entertaining before.

*grabs popcorn, coke and candy*

Sent from my Moto X (XT1053) using Tapatalk

Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Mike Diack on July 20, 2014, 05:26:11 PM
Yep, I just thought this thread was entertaining before.

*grabs popcorn, coke and candy*

Hey, it's a change from X32 bashing or JBL worship.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Tommy Peel on July 20, 2014, 05:29:17 PM
Hey, it's a change from X32 bashing or JBL worship.
Yeah, at least in this thread the product being bashed actually deserves it.

Sent from my Moto X (XT1053) using Tapatalk

Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Ray Aberle on July 20, 2014, 06:27:24 PM
Yep, I just thought this thread was entertaining before.

*grabs popcorn, coke and candy*

I just always am amused when someone comes in, relatively unknown, no history on the board (and isn't already an industry icon-- I mean, if Dave Rat came in here with "noob" status and 2 posts, damn right I'll listen to what he has to say....) -- and they challenge a respected member of the forums...

Just like someone the other day who called out Dick Rees about electrical, and had the audacity to say something pretty blunt to Dick.

-Ray

99.9% of performers are not at the same level as Pat Metheney, Greg Lake, etc.
99.9% of performers don't use Danley products. What does this infer about Danley?
I took a look at the Thomas Cornish Consulting website. Listed under equipment is JBL Vertec 4886/4883 line array. Looking at your photos of your system deployment, I saw nothing that resembled a line array. Seriously, you don't really consider three boxes on a tripod a line array? Unless you can hang a minimum of 8 boxes, I'd say you have a bit of marketing hype yourself.
It also seems that your deployment of the system is unconventional. Those speakers on the tall tripods look top heavy. The subs appear to be way out front of the speakers on a stick. What are those speakers on the front of the stage? Are those subs or front fills? Are you mixing different types of subs in your system? It would be interesting to hear the theory behind your deployment.

Here is a link to the photo on your website that I am referring to.
http://tjcornish.com/photo-album/img_7618.html

You never did answer the questions about your personal experiences using Bose L1 system. Do you actually have any hands on experience with the product?
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on July 20, 2014, 06:33:47 PM
99.9% of performers are not at the same level as Pat Metheney, Greg Lake, etc.
99.9% of performers don't use Danley products. What does this infer about Danley?
I took a look at the Thomas Cornish Consulting website. Listed under equipment is JBL Vertec 4886/4883 line array. Looking at your photos of your system deployment, I saw nothing that resembled a line array. Seriously, you don't really consider three boxes on a tripod a line array? Unless you can hang a minimum of 8 boxes, I'd say you have a bit of marketing hype yourself.
It also seems that your deployment of the system is unconventional. Those speakers on the tall tripods look top heavy. The subs appear to be way out front of the speakers on a stick. What are those speakers on the front of the stage? Are those subs or front fills? Are you mixing different types of subs in your system? It would be interesting to hear the theory behind your deployment.

Here is a link to the photo on your website that I am referring to.
http://tjcornish.com/photo-album/img_7618.html

You never did answer the questions about your personal experiences using Bose L1 system. Do you actually have any hands on experience with the product?
Wow - this is probably the farthest reach anyone has had to take in their straw man attack against me.  What is your job title at Bose?

In all of the events I do, I deploy adequate equipment - frequently much more than adequate.  I have flown more than 3 4886 boxes when the event calls for it, and have access to as many as I need.  My system is correctly deployed using manufacturer-specified presets, and the subs are time aligned with the rest of the system.  I am not "mixing subs" in the manner you are inferring.  The rigging is manufacturer-approved.  The results are satisfied customers every time.  I have previously written about why I chose the system I have and why I believe it is the best choice for me.  You found my website; I'm sure you can find that too.  And absolutely none of this matters 2 beans in the context of this thread.

The one thing that is true in 100% of the events I do is that no number of L1 systems would have cut it - even if Pat Metheney and friends played the event. 

I do have personal experience with the L1, which I indicated in the previous post.  The gig was very frustrating - I would have killed for a pair of QSC K10s or nearly anything else instead. 

Why do you care so much about what I think?  If you own Bose gear and it's working for you, then I would think that's enough.  It won't work for me, which is why I've made other choices.  My opinion is hardly the minority - no matter how I deploy my unrelated system.   ::)
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Jay Barracato on July 20, 2014, 08:14:36 PM
I have used the L1 a number of times in what would seem to be an optimal setup, bluegrass band doing 1 mic in a room 30 x 45 for about 60 people.

The magic setting to make it sound really good was "off".

One of the few times was advice as a sound tech was just "project so everyone can hear you and don't worry about the damn pa."

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: paul bell on July 20, 2014, 10:37:36 PM
Every Memorial day, I do the same street festival. My gear: 4 subs, 4 tops, 8 monitors on 6 mixes, 24 x 8 snake, console 85 feet out. BASSMAXX, McCauley. You know, "proper" sound for 5,000 people in the street.

5 Latin bands, mostly sharing backline. My guys on stage to get them on & connected.

One year, this one band sets up a pair of Bose L1 speakers, unplugs the inputs to our snake and routes them into their mixer. How my guys missed all this is still beyond me  ::)

The band starts, the L1 speakers could not be heard. No signal at FOH. We scrambled to set it right again.

Now, my list to the bands of what I provide and what's expected of them SPECIFICALLY STATES NO BOSE or any gear other than backline from them.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 20, 2014, 11:36:35 PM
99.9% of performers are not at the same level as Pat Metheney, Greg Lake, etc.
99.9% of performers don't use Danley products. What does this infer about Danley?
I took a look at the Thomas Cornish Consulting website. Listed under equipment is JBL Vertec 4886/4883 line array. Looking at your photos of your system deployment, I saw nothing that resembled a line array. Seriously, you don't really consider three boxes on a tripod a line array? Unless you can hang a minimum of 8 boxes, I'd say you have a bit of marketing hype yourself.
It also seems that your deployment of the system is unconventional. Those speakers on the tall tripods look top heavy. The subs appear to be way out front of the speakers on a stick. What are those speakers on the front of the stage? Are those subs or front fills? Are you mixing different types of subs in your system? It would be interesting to hear the theory behind your deployment.

Here is a link to the photo on your website that I am referring to.
http://tjcornish.com/photo-album/img_7618.html (http://tjcornish.com/photo-album/img_7618.html)

You never did answer the questions about your personal experiences using Bose L1 system. Do you actually have any hands on experience with the product?

Robert,
You've moved a long way from speaker and manufacturer bashing to insulting the way a member of this board makes their living. You have taken a step over the line that was neither prudent, justified, or called for under any stretch of the imagination. You're not insulting Behringer, Bose, JBL, RCF, et al, you are insulting a mans credibility and capabilities using very little, and incomplete information at best. You have made statements which in a world of instant communications, could in effect have an impact on the way that person earns their living and supports their family.

What I suggest now on your part is a hasty retreat, even perhaps with an apology for your rude and thoughtless remarks, possibly circumventing a large number of stinging replies from other members of this board. Let me also state for the record that my usual responses are meant to be a combination of both humor and truth. That is not the case with my response here, and I will stand toe to toe with any person who finds it necessary to attack the business of a PSW member or members.

 
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Scott Holtzman on July 20, 2014, 11:50:58 PM
Robert,
You've moved a long way from speaker and manufacturer bashing to insulting the way a member of this board makes their living. You have taken a step over the line that was neither prudent, justified, or called for under any stretch of the imagination. You're not insulting Behringer, Bose, JBL, RCF, et al, you are insulting a mans credibility and capabilities using very little, and incomplete information at best. You have made statements which in a world of instant communications, could in effect have an impact on the way that person earns their living and supports their family.

What I suggest now on your part is a hasty retreat, even perhaps with an apology for your rude and thoughtless remarks, possibly circumventing a large number of stinging replies from other member of this board. Let me also state for the record that my usual responses are meant to a combination of both humor and truth. That is not the case with my response here, and I will stand toe to toe with any person who finds it necessary to attack the business of a PSW member or members.

Bob is right, as a long time moderator you simply can't allow flames on a business in an open forum.  A case for damages could even be made. 

A hasty removal of the URL is the closest thing to unringing the bell you can do.  This thread will probably get hits that are many orders of magnitude greater than TJ's site.  This thread will take be attached to his search hits and I can't imagine trying to explain this to a potential client.

I certainly understand that we can become emotional about our skills and maybe even a little bit jealous when someone we judge as inferior is having success.  Any post made in the haste of emotion is from the wrong place.  You better know who you are and be comfortable in your own skin if you are going to air your professional life and possibly even shortcoming in these forums.  To attack another member out of anger, to anyone in the know only hurts your reputation not theirs.

Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Ray Aberle on July 20, 2014, 11:55:51 PM
TJ, I am going to apologise for making light of Robert's post-- I should have really said something like Bob did. For Robert to attack you personally, especially without knowing anything about you or your business, was certainly uncalled for. I'm sorry for not taking it as serious as it really should have been.

Thanks,

Ray
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on July 21, 2014, 12:56:09 AM
It is a shame this thread took a turn the way it did due to someones ridiculously insensitive and unfounded comments.....till that point I was thoroughly enjoying the read...anyway
I WAS just going to say that although I accept that personal opinion is going to differ regarding the quality of certain products, I am always fascinated by just how much opinion can differ from one sound guy to another......
my opinion - I like some Bose home entertainment items -although they are overpriced, but. For P.A.      ...........bahahahahahahahahahahaha.........
One more thing...Get well soon Bob (BTW - you are TOO funny)
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Robert Lunceford on July 21, 2014, 01:29:04 AM
Bob is right, as a long time moderator you simply can't allow flames on a business in an open forum.  A case for damages could even be made. 

A hasty removal of the URL is the closest thing to unringing the bell you can do.  This thread will probably get hits that are many orders of magnitude greater than TJ's site.  This thread will take be attached to his search hits and I can't imagine trying to explain this to a potential client.

I certainly understand that we can become emotional about our skills and maybe even a little bit jealous when someone we judge as inferior is having success.  Any post made in the haste of emotion is from the wrong place.  You better know who you are and be comfortable in your own skin if you are going to air your professional life and possibly even shortcoming in these forums.  To attack another member out of anger, to anyone in the know only hurts your reputation not theirs.

Scott,
I didn't intend to "flame" TJ, I saw what appeared to be an unusual deployment of equipment and asked him some specific questions. He replied with logical answers to my questions.
I have complied with your request as a moderator of the forum and removed the majority of the post in question. You write that you can't flame a business on an open forum. Isn't a manufacturer such as Bose a business? Why is it ok to flame a manufacturer on this forum?
For the record, I have no association with Bose and I do not currently own or use any Bose equipment.

Thanks,
Robert


Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Robert Lunceford on July 21, 2014, 01:33:13 AM
Robert,
You've moved a long way from speaker and manufacturer bashing to insulting the way a member of this board makes their living. You have taken a step over the line that was neither prudent, justified, or called for under any stretch of the imagination. You're not insulting Behringer, Bose, JBL, RCF, et al, you are insulting a mans credibility and capabilities using very little, and incomplete information at best. You have made statements which in a world of instant communications, could in effect have an impact on the way that person earns their living and supports their family.

What I suggest now on your part is a hasty retreat, even perhaps with an apology for your rude and thoughtless remarks, possibly circumventing a large number of stinging replies from other member of this board. Let me also state for the record that my usual responses are meant to a combination of both humor and truth. That is not the case with my response here, and I will stand toe to toe with any person who finds it necessary to attack the business of a PSW member or members.

Bob, You must have me confused with someone else. I have never bashed any speaker or equipment manufacturer on this board. The closest I have come to that was a post about not being able to connect a Neutrik cable to a "new" Heil PR35 due to the rubber compression ring.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Scott Holtzman on July 21, 2014, 01:36:36 AM
Scott,
I didn't intend to "flame" TJ, I saw what appeared to be an unusual deployment of equipment and asked him some specific questions. He replied with logical answers to my questions.
I have complied with your request as a moderator of the forum and removed the majority of the post in question. You write that you can't flame a business on an open forum. Isn't a manufacturer such as Bose a business? Why is it ok to flame a manufacturer on this forum?
For the record, I have no association with Bose and I do not currently own or use any Bose equipment.

Thanks,
Robert

If you are reviewing equipment that you have first hand knowledge with that's a different story.

There was a very personal undertone to it, it read like an attack and I winced when I read it.  I was also enjoying the thread as Debbie said. 

I am by no means the arbiter of this forum or forum decorum in general.  I simply shared a fact about the link and my opinion as objectively as I could.

To quote Justice Stewart, the same seems to apply to this:

I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hard-core pornography"]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that. [Emphasis added.]
—Justice Potter Stewart, concurring opinion in Jacobellis v. Ohio 378 U.S. 184 (1964), regarding possible obscenity in The Lovers.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 21, 2014, 01:50:55 AM
Bob, You must have me confused with someone else. I have never bashed any speaker or equipment manufacturer on this board. The closest I have come to that was a post about not being able to connect a Neutrik cable to a "new" Heil PR35 due to the rubber compression ring.


You responded within a thread that had turned critical of BOSE with comments pertaining to a PSW members business, and without clear cut proof that members business provides a demonstrable disservice to the community, and to his customers. Remarks of that type and nature malign that persons business and are damaging often beyond repair. You've crossed a line.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Richard Turner on July 21, 2014, 07:05:57 AM
Ok I have a real question.

At what retail price point would a bose 802III not be over priced?

Condidering that the thing is an antique and all I still consider them a valid MI grade option  if used in multiples with processing and enough amplifier.

please no snide answers like double the tippage fee plus wages to send them to the nearest landfill.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on July 21, 2014, 07:16:40 AM
Ok I have a real question.

At what retail price point would a bose 802III not be over priced?

Condidering that the thing is an antique and all I still consider them a valid MI grade option  if used in multiples with processing and enough amplifier.

please no snide answers like double the tippage fee plus wages to send them to the nearest landfill.

I look in the "sold" listings on Ebay for CMV.

The point is that FOR THE MONEY, there are much, much better options out there.  The last time I had to use them it was for an announcer addressing the bleachers at a college sports field.  For that they were OK.

But that was almost 20 years ago...
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 21, 2014, 07:20:32 AM
I see a pair of 802 series III with processor generally sell for $5-6000. I also see used 802's selling on Ebay as low as $99. It's not like the cabinets aren't made with some quality and care so $2K with processor would be a good price for the package. Break it out and $350 of that money is about what the processor is worth. 
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on July 21, 2014, 07:33:40 AM
Robert,
You've moved a long way from speaker and manufacturer bashing to insulting the way a member of this board makes their living. You have taken a step over the line that was neither prudent, justified, or called for under any stretch of the imagination. You're not insulting Behringer, Bose, JBL, RCF, et al, you are insulting a mans credibility and capabilities using very little, and incomplete information at best. You have made statements which in a world of instant communications, could in effect have an impact on the way that person earns their living and supports their family.

What I suggest now on your part is a hasty retreat, even perhaps with an apology for your rude and thoughtless remarks, possibly circumventing a large number of stinging replies from other members of this board. Let me also state for the record that my usual responses are meant to be a combination of both humor and truth. That is not the case with my response here, and I will stand toe to toe with any person who finds it necessary to attack the business of a PSW member or members.
Bob and others, I appreciate the support. When someone posts something publicly, it becomes subject to scrutiny, founded or otherwise. I have endeavored in my public life to follow a few guidelines - 1. Only opening my mouth when I am sure I know the correct answer, 2. Try to be helpful, 3. Not make anything or take anything personal, 4. Try to not be a jerk.

1 and 2 are pretty easy for me, 3 and 4 are a little harder sometimes.

When posting something to my website or to a forum, it is reasonable and a good thing to have peer review. Robert does not need to worry about a defamation lawsuit from me. I believe I have done all of my events in a safe and quality manner.  If someone has legitimate advice or criticism about how I do or have done something, I welcome it - one of two things will happen: either I will learn something and do it better next time, or I will be able to defend the way I did it; it is a win-win for me. The best place for that may not be in a fairly humorous thread about a product I don't own, however.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on July 21, 2014, 07:41:08 AM
Ok I have a real question.

At what retail price point would a bose 802III not be over priced?

Condidering that the thing is an antique and all I still consider them a valid MI grade option  if used in multiples with processing and enough amplifier.

please no snide answers like double the tippage fee plus wages to send them to the nearest landfill.
Look at the cost of other options that may be better used, and factor in some kind of discount. A pair of used QSC HPR122i speakers are significantly more capable and would be probably $1000 for the pair if they were in good shape. Based on that, I wouldn't pay more than probably $600 for the pair of 802s, the controller, and the amp to drive them.

Their street value is probably higher than $600 for all of that based on name recognition and the number of pieces required to make the system, but that would be all I would pay, assuming the 802 was appropriate for enough events to make it worth owning.

edit: @#$% autocowreckt
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on July 21, 2014, 09:02:16 AM
Scott,
I didn't intend to "flame" TJ, I saw what appeared to be an unusual deployment of equipment and asked him some specific questions. He replied with logical answers to my questions.
I have complied with your request as a moderator of the forum and removed the majority of the post in question. You write that you can't flame a business on an open forum. Isn't a manufacturer such as Bose a business? Why is it ok to flame a manufacturer on this forum?
For the record, I have no association with Bose and I do not currently own or use any Bose equipment.

Thanks,
Robert
Robert, as I wrote in my earlier post, I don't think there's a huge difference between criticizing a public corporation and criticizing an individual who has chosen to post things publicly.  I run a for-hire production company with a public website.  That opens me up to criticism - of my technical skill, my business practices, my spelling and grammar, etc.

I believe it was Caleb who said that Bose wouldn't draw nearly as much ire if they didn't claim to be able to solve all of the world's sound problems with a single amazing product that slices and dices, and folds up into your pocket.  That is really the root of the criticism.  If I was claiming to do something similar in my service offerings - i.e. providing a battery-powered bull-horn as an acceptable PA for 1000 people, I would be quite justifiably skewered.  I don't believe I have done that.

Answering your direct criticism of my vertical array and how I present that on my website - I do own a 4886/4883 system, and I have presented it in the common vernacular - as a line array, and deploy it in whatever manner the event calls for and budget allows, whether that is 3 on a tripod (which is IMO surprisingly effective, BTW), or 3+12/side.  I am also not basing my business on this point - I'm not renting out my version of a "line array" to unsuspecting customers, rather I am providing event production services of which the audio is a component, and nearly always at my discretion.

I'm fine with putting this aside now - all of the laundry has been suitably aired, and is now dry.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Scott Hofmann on July 21, 2014, 09:42:22 AM
I see a pair of 802 series III with processor generally sell for $5-6000. I also see used 802's selling on Ebay as low as $99. It's not like the cabinets aren't made with some quality and care so $2K with processor would be a good price for the package. Break it out and $350 of that money is about what the processor is worth.

I'm not sure of your information source, but I know for sure that a pair of 802 series III with processor has NEVER sold for "$5-6000". MSRP for the 802 III is $1000 each. The package you describe is often sold at around $2100. I have bought and sold many used 802's on Ebay for an average price of $200 each. Just sayin'
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 21, 2014, 10:37:50 AM
I agree, but for some reason or another there seems to be a package that pops up being sold/advertised with processor for anywhere from $3500 - $6000 with even $3500 being high. The most advertised price appears to be around $2500 for the pair/proc package. Price per box for the series III should be about $1200 new which is the generally advertised price I seem to see everywhere. Still a $500 box. Just sayin.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on July 21, 2014, 10:48:32 AM
Where is that "beating a dead horse" emoticon?

I think the speakers have been adequately characterized by now. No need to attack posters we don't agree with, save the dirty tricks for the next election.

JR
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Tim McCulloch on July 21, 2014, 10:55:41 AM
I would like to thank you all for feeding the troll.  He is now fat and sassy and with any luck will return to his place beneath the bridge.

It's past time to stick a fork in this one, it's long been done.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 21, 2014, 11:27:26 AM
I'm not done beating.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on July 21, 2014, 11:43:49 AM
I'm not done beating.

Equine-icide?

The beat goes on...
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Tim McCulloch on July 21, 2014, 11:44:56 AM
I'm not done beating.

"I'd horse whip you, if I had a horse."  - Groucho Marx.
Title: Re: the truth behind the bose 802 speakers
Post by: Doug Fowler on July 21, 2014, 12:07:04 PM
.....and that's enough.

-Doug, Mr. "First PA was 4x802 and 2x 302".