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Church and H.O.W. – Forums for HOW Sound and AV - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Church and HOW Forums => Church Sound => Topic started by: Asaph Ace on May 13, 2013, 05:11:17 PM
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So we just bought our church a new Soundcraft Si compact 32! Now we're struggling on how to record our sermons and worship band performances -- if possible. Throughout time searching for the fire wire expansion card for the board, i found out that there is a Multi-digital expansion card for it but i cannot find any dealer who sells it. While researching for any possibilities, i found it that a lot of churches record themselves and do virtual sound check through the MADI expansion card -- which i have no idea how it works. I just want to hear some Inputs and insights from you guys about this and pretty much help me come out with a good solution.
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There is a to-be-released FireWire card, and a Dante networking card, and a MADI card. FireWire is obvious, Dante works by connecting straight to your computers gigabit Ethernet port, MADI requires a computer interface device such as from RME. Dante seems the easiest way to go, and you could use it to make a FOH / Monitor split with a second desk later. Go look at Dante's website. I imagine, pure speculation, that the FireWire card would be the cheapest once released, but Dante could prove useful to you later while FireWire is a one trick pony.
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There is a to-be-released FireWire card, and a Dante networking card, and a MADI card. FireWire is obvious, Dante works by connecting straight to your computers gigabit Ethernet port, MADI requires a computer interface device such as from RME. Dante seems the easiest way to go, and you could use it to make a FOH / Monitor split with a second desk later. Go look at Dante's website. I imagine, pure speculation, that the FireWire card would be the cheapest once released, but Dante could prove useful to you later while FireWire is a one trick pony.
that sounds cool, can you give me Dante's website? coz i cant seem to find it... Does the Dante connectivity to the PC allows you to record and play multi-tracks? I dont really get what you meant by the MADI and the Dante. About the release, i heard its coming up around late june
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that sounds cool, can you give me Dante's website? coz i cant seem to find it... Does the Dante connectivity to the PC allows you to record and play multi-tracks? I dont really get what you meant by the MADI and the Dante. About the release, i heard its coming up around late june
Dante is a protocol developed by a company called Audinate, their website is at
www.audinate.com (http://www.audinate.com).
On the PC side you will need a Gigabit ethernet card and the "virtual soundcard" software from Audinate. This normally costs about $150 per license but you may get a free license when you buy the Dante card for the console. You'll also need some sort of DAW (digital audio workstation) software to do the recording and/or playback--lots of options out there for that and I'm not about to be drawn into THAT religious debate.
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Dante is a protocol developed by a company called Audinate, their website is at
www.audinate.com (http://www.audinate.com).
On the PC side you will need a Gigabit ethernet card and the "virtual soundcard" software from Audinate. This normally costs about $150 per license but you may get a free license when you buy the Dante card for the console. You'll also need some sort of DAW (digital audio workstation) software to do the recording and/or playback--lots of options out there for that and I'm not about to be drawn into THAT religious debate.
i was watching some youtube videos about it, pretty awesome too but i am really not familiar on how it works like the connectivity and how to set i up. Does the Firewire connectivity allows virtual sound track too?
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i was watching some youtube videos about it, pretty awesome too but i am really not familiar on how it works like the connectivity and how to set i up. Does the Firewire connectivity allows virtual sound track too?
Firewire is simply the connection method. If your console has that ability then yes, you could do virtual soundcheck via firewire.
As mentioned before, the Dante card is probably your best "future proof" option at this point. It allows you to use off the shelf network gear. Plug in a laptop/desktop via network and you have I think up to 64 bi-directional recording/playback.
My console has both firewire and usb built into it so we just use that and it works just fine.
We use Reaper as our DAW of choice but there are several options out there.
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Firewire is simply the connection method. If your console has that ability then yes, you could do virtual soundcheck via firewire.
As mentioned before, the Dante card is probably your best "future proof" option at this point. It allows you to use off the shelf network gear. Plug in a laptop/desktop via network and you have I think up to 64 bi-directional recording/playback.
My console has both firewire and usb built into it so we just use that and it works just fine.
We use Reaper as our DAW of choice but there are several options out there.
do you mean the port where you plug you ethernet cable for you PC/laptop?? dang! dante ports` awesome but i believe you need to map them right to make it work?
for your own opinion, which connectivity is best, reliable, and cheaper?
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Dante is going to be highly future ready, and let you send audio to a variety of locations at the same time such as multiple computers for backup recording or a redundant link to a single computer, certain power amplifiers and other consoles. It's tested, and reliable. FireWire card, whenever released, will be simple a bit but FireWire is on the way out, you can only connect one device, and it won't be good for connecting to anything else.
In my opinion, the only downside to Dante is the price.
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In my opinion, the only downside to Dante is the price.
How much more expensive than an alternative 64x64 interface is Dante? For every piece of Dante hardware you buy you get a free license for Dante VSC, that makes the virtual sound card as cheap as it gets. If you need to split in many ways you just need a GB switch. If you are only running Dante on the network it doesn't need to be a managed switch.
Mac
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I only meant that I assume the FireWire card would be cheaper! Not that price is a downside to Dante overall. I should have been more clear.
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I only meant that I assume the FireWire card would be cheaper! Not that price is a downside to Dante overall. I should have been more clear.
Why do you assume that? Have you seen pricing information on either? The MADI card, Dante card, and Firewire card should all be capable of high channel counts, but I seen no evidence that any one of them will be significantly higher or lower in price than the others. The Madi card is available now, but requires a MADI interface for the computer. If the computer is already equipped with a FW port there is only the cost of the interface card, but if not there is another interface to buy. The Dante card only requires a GB Ethernet port. Most newer computers come with one. If the computer only has a 100BT port Dante may work, but will be limited to 48x48 channels.
Mac
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I only meant that I assume the FireWire card would be cheaper! Not that price is a downside to Dante overall. I should have been more clear.
cool, but you guys havent answered my question yet... do you mean that the dante connects to any ethernet port used to connect you internet for any PC right?
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cool, but you guys havent answered my question yet... do you mean that the dante connects to any ethernet port used to connect you internet for any PC right?
Yes.
This was suggested to me by someone seemingly in the know. Don't be me wrong - I suggest Dante. Tons more options than FireWire. Madly expanding field of products.
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cool, but you guys havent answered my question yet... do you mean that the dante connects to any ethernet port used to connect you internet for any PC right?
Yes. A Dante port on your console would connect to a GB Ethernet port on your computer via CAT5 cable. The Dante Virtual Sound Card runs on your computer as your audio interface. It provides a 64 in, 64 out audio interface. Most consoles will require an interface card to provide the Dante interface. The Yamaha CL series are Dante based, so have the interface built in. Soundcraft/Studer have a Dante card that fits the D21 rack and some of their consoles. The Si takes a different card format, but there should be a Dante card available for the Si, if not now, soon.
Mac
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Yes. A Dante port on your console would connect to a GB Ethernet port on your computer via CAT5 cable. The Dante Virtual Sound Card runs on your computer as your audio interface. It provides a 64 in, 64 out audio interface. Most consoles will require an interface card to provide the Dante interface. The Yamaha CL series are Dante based, so have the interface built in. Soundcraft/Studer have a Dante card that fits the D21 rack and some of their consoles. The Si takes a different card format, but there should be a Dante card available for the Si, if not now, soon.
Mac
I'm not sure but from what i've heard, its coming around within the month of june hopefully! Soundcraft is releasing their FireWire and the dante card, etc. that is why i am pretty much confused right. About the dante, i would personally like to have but i cant find youtube tutorials to help me out set it out whereas the FireWire, its everywhere -- and besides our church PC already has a firewire input. For now, i'll pretty much conduct a research and find out whats suits our needs. I'll definitely consider your suggestions, it'd be great if you guys help me out with this too :)
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I'm sure your church PC has Ethernet as well.
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I'm not sure but from what i've heard, its coming around within the month of june hopefully! Soundcraft is releasing their FireWire and the dante card, etc. that is why i am pretty much confused right. About the dante, i would personally like to have but i cant find youtube tutorials to help me out set it out whereas the FireWire, its everywhere -- and besides our church PC already has a firewire input. For now, i'll pretty much conduct a research and find out whats suits our needs. I'll definitely consider your suggestions, it'd be great if you guys help me out with this too :)
A couple of observations...
Fewer and fewer laptops seem to come with FireWire. Your next one may not.
FireWire cables are seriously length restricted.
Pretty much all current laptops come with gigabit Ethernet.
Ethernet cables can be had at moderate cost in many lengths.
I chose Dante over USB or FireWire because it is easy for me to plug a 25' cable in and locate the PC on a convenient table in cases where the mix position is too crowded for safe use of the PC. Also, there were Dante cards available for my mixer.
I chose Dante over MADI because I did not need to buy an adapter to my laptop and maybe a different one for the next one. Also, the other bits of MADI networking were much more expensive than common Ethernet bits not to mention choice and local availability.
Other reasons for Dante or MADI are the ability to send any source to many destinations. So, you could send direct outs to the recorder, another mixer, an analyzer, a backup recorder ... All with little extra cost.
That's my $0.02
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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If I remember well an early description provided by soundcraft, the Firewire/USB card is only capable of 16x16 channels. The Dante & MADI cards are capable of much more (something like 56 or 64).
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If I remember well an early description provided by soundcraft, the Firewire/USB card is only capable of 16x16 channels. The Dante & MADI cards are capable of much more (something like 56 or 64).
Wow I have not heard that. That would be silly. Worse than the SC48 18 channel days...
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If I remember well an early description provided by soundcraft, the Firewire/USB card is only capable of 16x16 channels. The Dante & MADI cards are capable of much more (something like 56 or 64).
wait seriously!? i that case, i'll go for the dante then.. i just need to learn how to set it up
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wait seriously!? i that case, i'll go for the dante then.. i just need to learn how to set it up
You'll have to learn how to set anything up. Dante won't be much more or less complicated than FireWire. It's all similar, cable, drivers, assigning direct outs, that sort of thing. I don't know what you will think you'll find on YouTube that will make one easier than the other.
No disrespect to Nicolas, who may have heard this from a good source, but I've talked to people seemingly in the know and have not heard of such a restriction. I suggest you contact Soundcraft and get a certain answer.
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No disrespect to Nicolas, who may have heard this from a good source, but I've talked to people seemingly in the know and have not heard of such a restriction. I suggest you contact Soundcraft and get a certain answer.
Googling "soundcraft si firewire card" led me to this January 2013 press release:
http://www.soundcraft.com/news/news_story.aspx?type=1&nid=673 (http://www.soundcraft.com/news/news_story.aspx?type=1&nid=673)
ANAHEIM, California — HARMAN's Soundcraft has announced additional option cards in the ViSi Connect family for its Vi Series, Si Compact, Si Performer and new Si Expression range of consoles. The first card is a multi-digital interface card offering 16x16 channels of Firewire or USB connection, together with eight channels of optical ADAT, making a very simple recording interface available for these popular consoles.
Also announced shipping very soon are the Dante™ interface card and the BSS BLU link card, the latter providing a simple and convenient interface to any Harman product equipped with the BSS BLU Link digital audio bus, the most recent of which is the dbx PMC16 Personal Monitor System, allowing the console to feed the monitor controllers directly.
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Sure looks like the Firewire will be 16x16.
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Googling "soundcraft si firewire card" led me to this January 2013 press release:
http://www.soundcraft.com/news/news_story.aspx?type=1&nid=673 (http://www.soundcraft.com/news/news_story.aspx?type=1&nid=673)
Sure looks like the Firewire will be 16x16.
I'll be damned. My apologies. That is, IMHO, absurd!
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I'll be damned. My apologies. That is, IMHO, absurd!
i guess 16x16 aint enough for my church... looks like dante is the best option! you guys better help me out by the time we get it! haha
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i guess 16x16 aint enough for my church... looks like dante is the best option! you guys better help me out by the time we get it! haha
Out of curiosity, is Asaph Ace your real name? Sounds conveniently like an Old Testament musical alias.
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i guess 16x16 aint enough for my church... looks like dante is the best option! you guys better help me out by the time we get it! haha
It really shouldn't be that complicated!
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Out of curiosity, is Asaph Ace your real name? Sounds conveniently like an Old Testament musical alias.
Yup! My mom is a church music director and she wanted to name me after to a temple musician specifically from the Book of Psalms from the Bible. pretty funnny... haha
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I just received the following from soundcraft... Good news I think.
"Soundcraft professional mixing consoles 11 June 00:47
Hi Stuart, i can confirm that it is now a 32x32 interface. It was previously only 16x16 but we managed to upgrade this, unfortunately, since that press release!
Regards, Elliott"
This should be a much more serviceable interface than was originally released.
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I just received the following
Please go to your profile and change the "Name" field to your real first and last name as required by the posting rules displayed in the header at the top of the section, and in the Site Rules and Suggestions (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/board,36.0.html) in the Forum Announcements section, and on the registration page when you registered.
Mac
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Been reading PSW for years but new here now as a member.
Over a week ago I had talked with Soundcraft and been told the FW cards were in UK and would be in the US by a week or so. A day later a different Soundcraft rep said "February".
Live work and recording are equal values to me here and dispite the instant-plug FW aspect of the Presonus, I just went ahead with the Expression2 even WITH the trepidation of the RealSoonNow aspect of the firewire and Dante cards.
With an older Macbook being my main location recording tool (with analog consoles) along with an RME Fireface800 as the gateway with 2 ADAT preamp sets piggybacked to it, the firewire is legacy. Knowing the Yamaha line and what Dante is, but not being masterfully conversant with its implementations, I'm unclear about Dante and gigabit ethernet straight into the macbook (sounds simple on the surface) as well as simultaneously running a digital stage link to a Mini Stagebox, and all I'd need is the Dante card in the Expression... or not?
THanks for a LOT of good reading up to now. Hope I measure up.
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Interesting. 16x16 would have been an absurd, arbitrary restriction designed to make people buy the next card up.... though this is coming from the company who brought us only 2 fully parametric channel EQs filters on second gen digital console :)
I don't think you'll be able to do that off the bat. It's my understanding that stageboxes supporting Dante cards won't be available for some time. This was from a conversation with a Soundcraft rep at AES. That said I think Soundcraft has been failing to communicate with its user base and consumers on these issues. It's difficult to plan a system with all these things coming "down the road".
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Interesting. 16x16 would have been an absurd, arbitrary restriction designed to make people buy the next card up.... though this is coming from the company who brought us only 2 fully parametric channel EQs filters on second gen digital console :)
I don't think you'll be able to do that off the bat. It's my understanding that stageboxes supporting Dante cards won't be available for some time. This was from a conversation with a Soundcraft rep at AES. That said I think Soundcraft has been failing to communicate with its user base and consumers on these issues. It's difficult to plan a system with all these things coming "down the road".
indeed i have this EXPRESSION 24 right now sitting waiting 965For an answer to the "live+recording " solution and growing frustration. Im faced with (damnably) actually RETURNING this thing and hating going with presonus or other option... Or desperately wanting SOUNDCRAFT to make the clear obvious no- confusion choice to be able to run an EXPRESSION seriies console with BOTH mini stagebox expansion AND no-other-box MacBook recording solution.
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Been reading PSW for years but new here now as a member.
Over a week ago I had talked with Soundcraft and been told the FW cards were in UK and would be in the US by a week or so. A day later a different Soundcraft rep said "February".
Live work and recording are equal values to me here and dispite the instant-plug FW aspect of the Presonus, I just went ahead with the Expression2 even WITH the trepidation of the RealSoonNow aspect of the firewire and Dante cards.
With an older Macbook being my main location recording tool (with analog consoles) along with an RME Fireface800 as the gateway with 2 ADAT preamp sets piggybacked to it, the firewire is legacy. Knowing the Yamaha line and what Dante is, but not being masterfully conversant with its implementations, I'm unclear about Dante and gigabit ethernet straight into the macbook (sounds simple on the surface) as well as simultaneously running a digital stage link to a Mini Stagebox, and all I'd need is the Dante card in the Expression... or not?
THanks for a LOT of good reading up to now. Hope I measure up.
It's my understanding Dante cards are shipping now in the US. Yes, it's as simple as that. You get the card, CAT5e or better cable into your Mac, install Dante Virtual Soundcard which came with your purchase, select DVS in your DAW, done.
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indeed i have this EXPRESSION 24 right now sitting waiting 965For an answer to the "live+recording " solution and growing frustration. Im faced with (damnably) actually RETURNING this thing and hating going with presonus or other option... Or desperately wanting SOUNDCRAFT to make the clear obvious no- confusion choice to be able to run an EXPRESSION seriies console with BOTH mini stagebox expansion AND no-other-box MacBook recording solution.
If you get a MADI audio interface you can have both.
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As I am in a similar situation (looking to record from an Expression Si 3), I have been watching this thread for a while, and information has evolved a little over that time.
Multi-Digital I/O -- will apparently record 32 channels, so not the limitation as supposed earlier in the thread. This seems to be around the US$400 mark. If you use a PC then you can use the USB port into your DAW using the soundcraft driver (not for Mac though ... for reasons unclear). Cheap ... but no option to concurrently run a stagebox (ie no second slot)
Dante -- was originally my first choice, but as supposed earlier, this is much more expensive (the card is approximately 4x the Multi-Digital card, at around the US$1600 mark, from what I have read, or RRP AU$2300 here in Australia) Dante enabled stageboxes seem to be few, and quite high end (read: expensive). It is unclear to me how well they will integrate, particularly as the card does not seem to be shipping yet.
So from my point of view this brings me back to MADI, which seems to be the way Soundcraft are heading (given the architecture of their stageboxes). The stageboxes also come with the card, which (on the face of it) makes it more economical than (say) Dante.
Again, from reading around, it does NOT seem that it is as simple as just connecting everything together with some Cat5, and routing the appropriate inputs / outputs and 'away you go'. There is even a suggestion that you can not do both simultaneously, without the use of an auxiliary card IN the stagebox.
Has anyone actually run a multitrack recording from an Expression console into a PC/Mac, whilst using a digital stagebox via MADI.
What hardware was used? Cat5 / Optical? How many tracks? etc.
(apologies for the long first post)
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My dealer said around $800 USD for the Dante card. Soundcraft claims at some point you'll be able to buy a new mini stagebox but with a Dante card in it instead of a MADI card, it's vaporware for now. Notice that the MADI on the stagebox is mounted on a card.
The bummer here is that Soundcraft doesn't have that configuration out right now, and there's always the outside chance it'll never come to sale.
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From the Aus distributor's website:
" Prices in Australia are $625 (MDC) and $2375 (Dante) including GST "
So Dante nearly 4x the price of MultiDigital (RRP)
Can anyone in the US actually get either of these cards yet?
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Ok. After a little more research, Dante card available online for US$940
Multidigital IO available for $399
Given the Multidigital is a 'one-trick pony', I'll opt for the more expensive Dante option now. Worst outcome is there is never a Dante based stagebox, and I paid extra simply for recording capability. Lucky I couldn't find someone with the Multidig card in stock!
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Given the Multidigital is a 'one-trick pony', I'll opt for the more expensive Dante option now. Worst outcome is there is never a Dante based stagebox, and I paid extra simply for recording capability.
STELLAR. Had this thing sitting for a month waiting for a resolution on this. (wasn't there a quote on the SOUNDCRAFT fb page claiming a "stagebox and recording solution" answer a while ago?)
Meanwhile friends and folks are running around FWing their Presonus boards into laptops with simple gleeful abandon while I need to dole out another $400-$1k just to even DO that (FW or DANTE) at ALL -and- obviate the stagebox option. Choose mini-stagebox (MADI) and then no recording.
This doesn't feel like My Father's Soundcraft...
JV SOUNDSCENES DC
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Does anyone know if Soundcraft has an ADAT-only expansion card in the works? We have the adat hd24 and are not wanting to make the leap into digital recording yet. I know they have the multi card, but that only has 8 channels of lightpipe, not the 24 we need.
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I am not aware of anything like that, but I have no crystal ball. Frankly, I would already be pleased that Soundcraft folks do release the boards they announced like one year ago. I am afraid that ADAT becomes more and more a solution of the past. MADI/Dante/Ethersound are much more flexible. Even the Firewire is disappearing.
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I very much doubt they'll be putting any more R&D into ADAT, when you can run Dante straight into a computer.