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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: David Parker on February 11, 2013, 04:00:31 PM
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is the airport extreme and upgrade from the airport express for using an ipad to run an LS9 remotely? Does the extreme have more range and better connectivity, or is the difference in capabilities that would not be used in this application?
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Well....... Between the two for your application both are about equal. The extreme can run both 2.4ghz and 5ghz at the same time, but that is kinda a non issue. The express runs on either 2.4ghz, or 5ghz., but not both. Yamaha suggests running a router at 5ghz, so running both bands simultaneously may have zero gain? The express has limited in's and out's, but for practical purposes you only need the main WAN connection because everything else can connect via wireless anyway. You can only connect one thing at a time to the desk anyway so having a computer and an ipad on the network via wireless works well. Having the computer connected directly to the router may be more robust and fast, but I have had zero issues with the PC connection via wireless.
As for range they should both be about the same? I would guess the extreme has a little more range due to dual band and slightly stronger antenna's. They state that it has a 20dbm antenna. That should get you 150' or more? I have an Intellinet access point that runs in the 2.4ghz band and states that it's antenna power is 14dbm. It's good for about 100' without direct line of sight. I don't usually set F.O.H up 100' from the stage so it has never been an issue for me. I chose my router more because it fits in my doghouse. I have a +9dbu antenna to use if I need a little more range, but have never needed it.
I would say it comes down to what you want to spend. I think the express would do great, but you may feel differently. The express will run 5ghz and has the basic connections you need. As for range the extreme should win, but I have used a nice 5ghz router before and the range was about the same as my cheap access point YMMV of course. I would say if you have the money get the extreme simply because it has more features and will work for something else later. If money is a big issue, get the express, it will perform well too.
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A thought: If you have (or plan to buy) multiple ethernet-connectable devices for your rack (wireless mics, DSP,..) then the extra ports on the Extreme may be more convenient than adding a switch, but the Express is nice and tiny.
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http://www.apple.com/wifi/
This lists a summary of differences between the hardware. The wireless hardware on the latest airport express is on par with the extreme. The old version could do 2ghz or 5ghz, but the new one can do both. Not that it really matters. The reason to pick 5Ghz is more because there are less devices using that band, and the odds of interference are lower. The downside of 5Ghz is shorter range and less ability to penetrate objects, such as walls and bodies.
In my tests, range of the two is nearly identical, although in some cases was marginally better with the Extreme. It was close enough that i would call it a tie.
The Extreme has gigabit connections. For purposes of remote control of your board, it won't make a bit of difference. The small size of the express and the built in power supply makes it a great choice.
If using the express with an iPad for wireless control, I've found that using WEP can cause latency issues that tend to piss off the app. Hiding the network, and enabling MAC address control works great.
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http://www.apple.com/wifi/
This lists a summary of differences between the hardware. The wireless hardware on the latest airport express is on par with the extreme. The old version could do 2ghz or 5ghz, but the new one can do both. Not that it really matters. The reason to pick 5Ghz is more because there are less devices using that band, and the odds of interference are lower. The downside of 5Ghz is shorter range and less ability to penetrate objects, such as walls and bodies.
In my tests, range of the two is nearly identical, although in some cases was marginally better with the Extreme. It was close enough that i would call it a tie.
The Extreme has gigabit connections. For purposes of remote control of your board, it won't make a bit of difference. The small size of the express and the built in power supply makes it a great choice.
If using the express with an iPad for wireless control, I've found that using WEP can cause latency issues that tend to piss off the app. Hiding the network, and enabling MAC address control works great.
thanks, that's what I was looking for!
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If using the express with an iPad for wireless control, I've found that using WEP can cause latency issues that tend to piss off the app. Hiding the network, and enabling MAC address control works great.
That's very interesting Brian. I'm curious to hear more about your 'WEP-induced latency testing'.
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That's very interesting Brian. I'm curious to hear more about your 'WEP-induced latency testing'.
I didn't take the time to do any numbers testing on the current hardware. Any time you do encryption of data, you will introduce latency in the system. Back when I did test this (a long, long time ago) You could see a 30-50% drop in throughput on a connection when WEP was enabled. WPA2 is supposed to be better, but still will add latency.
In the case with an LS9, an Airport Express, with default security configuration, and an iPad 2, it would not hold a stable connection to the board for more than a couple minutes. These were the only devices on the network, in an unpopulated building, so interference wasn't likely the culprit. It's possible that going in and tweaking the exact settings may have helped enough to get it to work, but I didn't have the time. Hiding the SSID and adding MAC filtering will provide enough security for most practical purposes. There's not any really sensitive data being transmitted, so encryption isn't required.
I also had issues with a Presonus board and the same configuration, although not as bad. The connection was fairly stable, but would still lock up occasionally when encryption was enabled. Turn that off, and the app was happy as a clam, rock solid. This is why I came to the conclusion that the latency introduced by encryption is what was throwing off the apps. Most likely as the hardware was renegotiating the encryption phase, there was enough lag to throw it into a tizzy.
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I didn't take the time to do any numbers testing on the current hardware. ... This is why I came to the conclusion that the latency introduced by encryption is what was throwing off the apps. Most likely as the hardware was renegotiating the encryption phase, there was enough lag to throw it into a tizzy.
Thanks Brian. I'm using another access point today but I have a spare Airport Express I want to try out just to save space. When I try it out I'll go the MAC Address route, currently I hide the SSID and encrypt but entering MAC addresses isn't that big a deal (unless you have people walking in with iPhones that you want to connect...).
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I use wep encryption and hidden ssid. I will say that latency is ok. It's definitely not a show hindering amount of latency anyway. My biggest concern has always been stability. That being said, I went to DHCP server on my router. This in essence resolves all the stability issues, in trade of a minor performance cut. Still the latency is not enough to worry during a show. I think the above point was that encryption can introduce problems. May be worth testing further.
I know before going to a dhcp server, stability was non existent between my ls9 and Ipad. I have always hid my ssid and used wep 10 key encryption. I didn't try it without wep, but it would be interesting to see if going back to the standard static address settings would make a difference in stability? My guess is no? I haven't tried mac address filtering, but it sounds basically like it's stable, I wonder if it outperforms the dhcp server in terms of latency performance?
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I haven't tried mac address filtering, but it sounds basically like it's stable, I wonder if it outperforms the dhcp server in terms of latency performance?
Yes. It has to. MAC address filtering is one of the most secure ways to do this. It means that your device (and only your device) can connect.
All processes add latency to the network connection - DHCP server, encryption, etc. On big boy routers this is a non-issue as they have the horsepower to keep up. On home networking devices, it certainly makes a difference. Simplicity is always the correct answer.
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In the case with an LS9, an Airport Express, with default security configuration, and an iPad 2, it would not hold a stable connection to the board for more than a couple minutes.
Just as another data point, that's not my experience at all.
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this is all very confusing. Seems everyone has a different experience. I'm running a netgear router now, it has 2ghz and 5ghz options, WEP, etc. I have a lot of dropouts. I switch it back and forth between 5g and 2g depending on which one works best wherever I am. I've also tried having the WEP on and off. I just went out and bought an Airport Express. Hopefully I can get something more stable going. This MAC address seems promising. Hopefully I'll be able to figure out how to get that going. What exactly is MAC address?
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.... This MAC address seems promising. Hopefully I'll be able to figure out how to get that going. What exactly is MAC address?
Every ethernet networkable device has a unique ID number called its MAC address. Think of it as your social security number (for US citizens). Manufacturers apply for sets of MAC addresses.
One way to set up a network is to tell the access point/rouer/switch/... to only allow connections of devices with specific MAC addresses. This combined with hiding the existence of your wireless network (hidden SSID) makes it fairly difficult for someone to casually tap into your network.
MAC addresses can be spoofed, but the likelihood of this happening today in a live sound setup are pretty remote.
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this is all very confusing. Seems everyone has a different experience. I'm running a netgear router now, it has 2ghz and 5ghz options, WEP, etc. I have a lot of dropouts. I switch it back and forth between 5g and 2g depending on which one works best wherever I am. I've also tried having the WEP on and off. I just went out and bought an Airport Express. Hopefully I can get something more stable going. This MAC address seems promising. Hopefully I'll be able to figure out how to get that going. What exactly is MAC address?
MAC is Media Access Controller. It's a permanent, imbedded hex address that is assigned at the time a network-enabled product is manufactured. The network card on your computer, the WiFi card... each has its own MAC address... and no other device has the same address.
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A quick note on WEP encryption. Encryption requires modifying (encrypting) the wifi stream before it is sent, then decoding it, then re-encrypting any return packets (e.g. console meters moving in a tablet remote control app) and then decrypting them in your tablet/PC.
The encrypt/decrypt computations aren't free, they take some amount of time. Newer Intel chips have hardware support for encryption/decryption but there is still an overhead (latency). Whether the latency is an issue is going to depend on the capability (compute power) of the devices on each end of the transmit/receive and the sensitivity of the software to the latency. For a web browser its not an issue but for realtime control and monitoring a console it is possible that the latency would impact the 'realtime feel' of the software, i.e. fader and meter moves may seem to lag.
I've never measured the encryption induced latency so I can't say if it is actually significant or not. It will introduce some additional latency that may or may not be negligible.
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MAC is Media Access Controller. It's a permanent, imbedded hex address that is assigned at the time a network-enabled product is manufactured. The network card on your computer, the WiFi card... each has its own MAC address... and no other device has the same address.
No other device has the same address at the time of manufacture, but MAC addresses can be spoofed. We do it at work for some mission-critical backup systems. If you need two systems to appear identical they need the same MAC address. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAC_spoofing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAC_spoofing)
However, for someone to crack your live sound network that is secured by filtered MAC address they'd have to know a valid address that is allowed to connect to your network, which is a little harder to come by, and not for the casual club goer with an iPhone.
I would consider MAC address filtering, hidden SSID, and static IP addresses adequate security for typical concert, but probably not secure enough for the presidential inauguration, nor for the SXSW festival where 1/4 of your audience will be programmers.
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I feel security is important. This is especially because most of us don't spend the time to create truly unique networks for our stuff. My bet is most all of us are still using the stock .128 address for the LS9/M7? I am...... My second bet is that most peeps are also running standard router set ups. using 168.192.0.XXX as the addressing, with minimal security using WEP, in either 5-10 key passwords? Perhaps not? Some form of security is needed. Hiding the ssid is not a bad way to start. You at least need to know what to look for first. Having at least some form of encryption is the only other defense. Not that any really sensitive data is moving through the network, but a true hacker will get in and get what they want. Beyond that there are always free loaders trying to get a free ride on the internet. Any visible network becomes a target for WIFI hunters. You don't want them slowing you down.
I have an Ipad 3 and run the latest IOS. I was having really bad stability issues with it and my LS9. Even after all the updates and creating a new connection every time, I still lost connection. It seems that as long as the Ipad never went to sleep, or I never closed the flap ( that makes the Ipad go to sleep ) I could have worry free Ipad operation. As soon as the Ipad went to sleep in any way, or I closed out the SM app, I would be back to square one. To me the issue was within the network setup? The Ipad would go to sleep and it would drop the network. For whatever reason, once the network was dropped, it would keep doing something that would cause loss of connectivity with the SM app. I did Yamaha's second ( and easiest ) solution for the issue, but it was still an issue. I finally implemented their first solution ( DHCP server ) and the problem is non existent! The biggest issue is that for a novice IP guy, or somebody with little networking experience, the Yamaha instructions are vague at best. Here is my set of instructions to set up a DHCP server on your router. This has solved all my instability issues!
The new thing for running the LS9 and M7's is to set up your router as a DHCP server. This allows easy network setup that requires no static addresses and no need to change network settings in the computer or network devise when switching between networks! I don't see a need to control the desk via MIDI, especially if I could use the desk to control something else with MIDI. Again keeping things simple, nothing more than a host computer, router and network devise is needed. I like having the laptop located at the desk ( for having control over alternate view ) and the desk can be set for sends on faders. I can then use VNC to control the computer with my ipad ( or iphone : ) ) and do what needs to be done. This is the most stable of connections I have found. The SM app can be made to be stable, but it requires the setup of DHCP server on your router.
A how to on setting up DHCP server on your router:
1. log into your router by connecting to it directly via a cat5 cable. Change the network settings in your LAN properties to be in the same range as your router. Usually 192.168.0.2 / 192.168.2.2, or check the user manual to see and follow the instructions. After getting the LAN setting in the proper range open a web browser and type in the correct router address. I.E. 192.168.0.1, or whatever is appropriate for your router. Enter your routers username and password ( usually admin / 1234 when stock) to get into it's settings.
2. Once in the router settings you will be looking through the menus for an option to enable a DHCP server. It should be in a settings option field. Once you find the option enable it.
3. The information given by Yamaha for setting the DHCP server is vague. I hope mine is more useful. You need to set the range and other pertinent information for the server to work. You have to set the routers log in address ( The one used to log into the router ) to be inside the range that you desire the DHCP network to work. So if it's 192.168.2.1 it won't work with the range the desk is located. You either have to change the desk, or the routers log in address. It's easier to set the routers address at this point. Most routers are set for 192.168.0.1, but your may differ. I set mine to be 192.168.0.1 and it works fine.
4. You then need to set the gateway address and dns server addresses. I set them to be the same as the gateway address located in the desk. I.E. 192.168.0.1 you also need to set the subnet mask. 255.255.255.0 is standard and you shouldn't need to change it. If it's not entered in that field enter 255.255.255.0 for the subnet mask.
5. You should also name the server if there is an option. In the domain name / client id field I enter the same name as my network name. It could be PRO SOUND for example.
6. Then you need to set the server range. You only need a range large enough to accommodate the desk and all connected devices plus a few extra. I set mine to accommodate 100 addresses. It's overkill, but I'm not worried about others getting on my network ( it's a hidden SSID and a 10 digit password ) and I wanted to make it easy to remember if I need another network setup. If you have your desk at the stock address of 192.168.0.128, you will want to set the range around that. So for example 192.168.0.100 will be your start address and 192.168.0.200 as your end address. you can set your network to be whatever range you desire. Just remember it all has to be in the same range. I.E. if you decide to go with 192.168.2.128 for your desk you will need to set the rest of the range around 192.168.2.100 - 192.168.2.200 for example.
7. Then you need to set how long the lease will be good for. I set mine to be forever. If you set it for 5 min. that would mean that every five min it would update the lease. This may not be good in the middle of the show when it goes to update and something goes wrong with the lease update. Loss of connection is the result. If you do loose connection from going out of wireless range it doesn't hurt to go into the wireless settings and renew the lease to be sure that a new secure connection has been made.
8. Save/apply all the settings and restart the router. Disconnect from the router and test the new network.
9. This describes the setup for an ipad type devise. Go to other network ( if yours is hidden.....it should be!!! ) and enter in the network name and password. Once connected enter into the search damians and client id if not already filled in the name of your domain name or client id. If you named it the same as your network simply enter that name. when done all fields should be filled with information from the router. The ip address will be the one that was assigned to the ipad by the router. The subnet mask should be 255.255.255.0 the router will be the 192.168.0.1 address you assigned it and DNS will be the same.
10. for a computer it's even easier! Simply search for your network by going to " search for a network or connection " and again fill in the network name and password. Be sure to set the priority of the network so that it will connect whenever the network is in range. As well as what order the computer will connect to networks when they are in range. All of this is located in network and sharing center when you click on your wireless icon. Once your connected and you have the appropriate priorities set for the network you should never have to touch anything again. at this point all you will need to do is switch between the desired wireless networks. You don't have to add or adjust any info in the network properties.
Most routers will also do MAC filtering. I haven't done this approach yet, but it seems to be working for others. If this is a simpler task a how to on it would be nice. My How to is not the best but should get you there. Feel free to update mine if things are wrong. But I can say that the DHCP server setting has the same latency as any other way I have ran the desk ( remotely ) and it is stable!
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this is all very confusing. Seems everyone has a different experience. I'm running a netgear router now, it has 2ghz and 5ghz options, WEP, etc. I have a lot of dropouts. I switch it back and forth between 5g and 2g depending on which one works best wherever I am. I've also tried having the WEP on and off. I just went out and bought an Airport Express. Hopefully I can get something more stable going. This MAC address seems promising. Hopefully I'll be able to figure out how to get that going. What exactly is MAC address?
Hi David,
We did a few things to assure a stable wireless connection. We have a PC connected via ethernet to the router. The LS9 is connected to the router. We then connect a Ubiquiti Bullet Access Point (running at 5GHz) with a beefy Qualcom antenna to the router. We connect to the PC via VNC on an iPad that connects to our network via the Ubiquiti AP at 5GHz using the Qualcom antenna.
At an outdoor fair we tested distance connectivity (line of sight.) we were still connected with no lag at 1000 + feet away. We use WEP. All IP addresses are hard coded, as the only delays inside our network have been DHCP timeouts. There are not that many addresses to administer: The Ubiquit AP, the laptop, the LS9, both Sennheiser NET1 units, and a spare laptop. Having a static IP on the PC connected to the LS9 also simplifies VNC connection. The iPad is the only device that is assigned an IP via DHCP. This setup has worked very well for us.
One thing you might want to consider: In highly congested 2.4GHz environments, your router's CPU may be getting overwhelmed if there are many 2.4 Access Points and wireless phones in the space. We had this unhappy experience twice. Both times the venues had many (12 to 14) AP's and once the people arrived with their phones, we couldn't maintain a connection. Shutting off the 2.4GHz radio in the router solved that problem (the second time it happened!) We only keep 2.4GHz on now so band members can adjust their IEM mixes with their 2.4GHz Android phones/tablets (we are using Air Fader Server on the ethernet attached PC.) Once Adam Ellsworth brings out an iOS enabled client for Air Fader the 2.4 radio will be shut off for good. All band members are using iPads for their scores, so they will be able to connect to Air Fader Server using the 5GHz path. This will be good until 5GHz phones/tablets become the norm... If you have line of sight, try shutting off the 2.4GHz radio in the router and use only5GHz.
Where the Airport is located (in the doghouse or not...) might affect how well wireless is received/transmitted, especially at 5GHz. That's why we went with an external AP with an antenna rated for campgrounds.
Best regards,.
Bob Charest
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Hi David,
We did a few things to assure a stable wireless connection. We have a PC connected via ethernet to the router. The LS9 is connected to the router. We then connect a Ubiquiti Bullet Access Point (running at 5GHz) with a beefy Qualcom antenna to the router. We connect to the PC via VNC on an iPad that connects to our network via the Ubiquiti AP at 5GHz using the Qualcom antenna.
At an outdoor fair we tested distance connectivity (line of sight.) we were still connected with no lag at 1000 + feet away. We use WEP. All IP addresses are hard coded, as the only delays inside our network have been DHCP timeouts. There are not that many addresses to administer: The Ubiquit AP, the laptop, the LS9, both Sennheiser NET1 units, and a spare laptop. Having a static IP on the PC connected to the LS9 also simplifies VNC connection. The iPad is the only device that is assigned an IP via DHCP. This setup has worked very well for us.
One thing you might want to consider: In highly congested 2.4GHz environments, your router's CPU may be getting overwhelmed if there are many 2.4 Access Points and wireless phones in the space. We had this unhappy experience twice. Both times the venues had many (12 to 14) AP's and once the people arrived with their phones, we couldn't maintain a connection. Shutting off the 2.4GHz radio in the router solved that problem (the second time it happened!) We only keep 2.4GHz on now so band members can adjust their IEM mixes with their 2.4GHz Android phones/tablets (we are using Air Fader Server on the ethernet attached PC.) Once Adam Ellsworth brings out an iOS enabled client for Air Fader the 2.4 radio will be shut off for good. All band members are using iPads for their scores, so they will be able to connect to Air Fader Server using the 5GHz path. This will be good until 5GHz phones/tablets become the norm... If you have line of sight, try shutting off the 2.4GHz radio in the router and use only5GHz.
Where the Airport is located (in the doghouse or not...) might affect how well wireless is received/transmitted, especially at 5GHz. That's why we went with an external AP with an antenna rated for campgrounds.
Best regards,.
Bob Charest
This is a lot to digest. I work very small venues, and I have very limited space, hence the need for the ipad, so having a computer connected to the mixer in addition to the ipad is out of the question. I work alone and have an hour to load out everything. Turning off the 2.4ghz is an option that might help out. I've gotten the best results from just mixing on headphones after the initial soundcheck when the mixer cannot be in a good location. When the ipad is working, it's awesome, actually easier to mix on than the mixer itself.
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David, Bob is talking basically of running the system via VNC, instead of the SM app. He went to extremes to get range and reliability. Most of the time I would bet that you would never need to have the ipad more than 100' away from the mixer. Which if that is where your router is located you should have no issues. Using the Yamaha recommended DHCP server will get the stability you desire with the functionality. I like having some form of redundancy, so I always have the PC sitting next to the desk. If I lose the SM I can get into my PC via VNC and take control again. Also I can do this to adjust dynamics and effects without having to walk back to the desk. That being said, I have my desk set up side/back stage a lot these days. I like being the non existent sound guy sitting at his post with nothing but a PC/Ipad. Where's the mixer : )
The connection with SM on a laptop over wireless has never once given me an issue. It is as solid as it comes. The only thing that seems to be dodgy is the Ipad SM APP. Since going to a DHCP server set up I have not had an issue with the Ipad no matter what I do. As I mentioned the SM app on the Ipad only seemed to drop connection when you let it go to sleep, or you kill the app and then open it back up again. After re-establishing a new connection with the router ( from the Ipad ), if you never allow the Ipad to go to sleep, or close the app, you should never have an issue. That is not a fun way to run your show though. The other cool thing about running the router as a DHCP server is that you no longer have to go into network setting and re-configure again. The connection is automatic and all you would need to do to switch the network is to simply pick the new network and connect.
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The connection with SM on a laptop over wireless has never once given me an issue. It is as solid as it comes. The only thing that seems to be dodgy is the Ipad SM APP. Since going to a DHCP server set up I have not had an issue with the Ipad no matter what I do. As I mentioned the SM app on the Ipad only seemed to drop connection when you let it go to sleep, or you kill the app and then open it back up again. After re-establishing a new connection with the router ( from the Ipad ), if you never allow the Ipad to go to sleep, or close the app, you should never have an issue. That is not a fun way to run your show though. The other cool thing about running the router as a DHCP server is that you no longer have to go into network setting and re-configure again. The connection is automatic and all you would need to do to switch the network is to simply pick the new network and connect.
Your performance and stability improvements have absolutely nothing to do with the DHCP server (unless you simply had your static IP addressing wrong). If you had your static IP addressing in order to begin with, it would be much more stable than a DHCP implementation. Bob had it correct - the DHCP implementation is more likely to cause stability issues (and it will NEVER fix them). Your experience simply implies that you had it wrong in the first place, not that DHCP magically made things more stable.
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Your performance and stability improvements have absolutely nothing to do with the DHCP server (unless you simply had your static IP addressing wrong). If you had your static IP addressing in order to begin with, it would be much more stable than a DHCP implementation. Bob had it correct - the DHCP implementation is more likely to cause stability issues (and it will NEVER fix them). Your experience simply implies that you had it wrong in the first place, not that DHCP magically made things more stable.
+1
After the DHCP server serves up the address information, it does not take part again until the address lease runs out (which should be many, like 24 or so, hours).
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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There was proper addressing going on with the conventional static address. This is of course the preferred way to run this, but I was getting drop outs. It has been an issue to the degree that Yamaha has released work around's for it. Keep in mind that it was only the IPAD that was unstable. The connection with the computer with a static address was solid. Yamaha's suggestion for the work around's is the DHCP server route. I simply did the suggestion and my experience with using an IPAD with the desk has gone from lament to much more joyous.
You both could give us a more detailed write up on what you would consider proper static addressing as it relates to the IPAD. That would be nice. Saying that DHCP didn't fix my problem doesn't help either of us much. Especially since it did fix the issue not only for me, but countless others. Be aware that most of us are probably running the latest IOS version with the latest Ipad SM app version. This DHCP method is also Yamaha's #1 work around.
If you two have never had connectivity issues with your IPAD to the desk, consider yourself lucky and one of the few and the proud. I'm not an IT network tech by any means, but I'm certainly not a slouch either. Perhaps you could do some tests and see what you find as to why the IPAD drops out?
Some more things of interest. I have blue tooth off and run an ipad that has no 4G network ability. I have a brand new IPAD 3 with very little to no apps. or added features on it. Straight out of the box I set the thing up to work with the LS9 and M7. Messaging, email and everything like that is turned off. It only has running what cannot be turned off and what is needed to of course connect to wireless networks. Since getting the IPAD stable I have not noticed any latency issues and everything is happy. DHCP server set up was my fix, whats yours?
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I did some searching and found one of your methods. I will post here under quote:
Scott Wagner Posted:
In the audio world, it's best to keep networks as simple as possible. While the subnet classes have been deprecated thanks to variable length subnet masking, they are still useful in that they are much easier for a novice to understand. 24 bit (or class C 255.255.255.0) subnet masks are probably the best choice for audio networks, since it is extremely rare to need more than 254 unique addresses (in each subnet) in an audio environment. Keep in mind that the first address in a subnet (192.168.1.0 in a class C subnet for example) is the network itself, and the last address in a subnet (192.168.1.255 in a class C subnet) is the broadcast address (ie: all devices on that subnet will accept the packet). That would leave a range of addresses available (192.168.1.[1-254]) for addressing each device.
Given the constraint that class C subnet masking will be used, the best choice for addressing would be to use the 192.168.[0-255].[1-254] private address space. The first two octets (since they are 8 bits in length) are defined by RFC1918 as a private 16 bit (class B) address space that is easily configurable into 256 class C subnets. The third octet (192.168.x) would define the network, and the fourth octet (192.168.[0-255].x) defines each device. Traditionally, routers are assigned addresses at the beginning or end of the address space (192.168.1.1 or 192.168.1.254 for example), but there are no requirements to do so other than tradition.
To summarize the TCP/IP Networking for Audio Dummies:
1. Use the 192.168.[0-255].[1-254] address space
2. Use 255.255.255.0 for all subnet masks
3. Pick a number for the third octet to define your network (192.168.1 is a standard choice).
4. Pick a number for the fourth octete to define each device (192.168.1.[1-254]).
5. The "default gateway address" is whatever address you've assigned to your router (or 0.0.0.0 if you don't have a router).
6. Remember that most audio networks are switched (instead of routed), since it's best to isolate production networks from the rest of the world.
7. When deploying wireless, always enable the security to keep the punters out of your production network.
If you stick to these simple constraints, anyone can easily configure networks without ever having to understand binary (base2) mathmatics.
I had my IPAD set around the stock address of the LS9/M7 of 192.168.0.128. So I set my static addresses to 192.168.0.XXX, I used a formula that was simple for me to remember. I would use lower than 128 for my PC related stuff and above 128 for my MAC related stuff. I would usually give a couple addresses either way. So it was usually .126, or .130 for the last octet. I tried using lower addresses for the IPAD too and to no avail. The PC was always solid on the network and had never dropped a connection from the desk with this approach. The IPAD on the other hand was of no real stable use.
After having gone to DHCP server, I have roughly the same addresses, the IPAD usually gets 0.100 handed out, because it's the first to get connected. The PC will get 0.101. If I have played by the rules, then what else could have caused the dropouts that DHCP seems to have fixed?
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There was proper addressing going on with the conventional static address. This is of course the preferred way to run this, but I was getting drop outs. It has been an issue to the degree that Yamaha has released work around's for it. ...
Luke can you share a link to Yamaha's paper on this workaround. Using DHCP to improve stability is very counterintuitive to me, so I'm curious to see what Yamaha says. Theoretically it should work as others have said, you get a lease and then DHCP is completely out of it for a day or a week or however you have the lease setup,... The DHCP server is basically sucking up compute cycles on the AP that aren't needed, and it makes your network slightly less secure.
Maybe you didn't configure the DHCP server's lease time for a long enough period, or maybe there is/was a bug in iOS,...
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Luke can you share a link to Yamaha's paper on this workaround. Using DHCP to improve stability is very counterintuitive to me, so I'm curious to see what Yamaha says. Theoretically it should work as others have said, you get a lease and then DHCP is completely out of it for a day or a week or however you have the lease setup,... The DHCP server is basically sucking up compute cycles on the AP that aren't needed, and it makes your network slightly less secure.
Maybe you didn't configure the DHCP server's lease time for a long enough period, or maybe there is/was a bug in iOS,...
The only issue that a DHCP server could possibly fix is improper IP addressing; other than that it's just overhead for the WAP/router's CPU and RAM. IP addressing includes the IP address itself, subnet mask, and default gateway assignments. Get any of those wrong or incomplete, and you have a problem.
Static addressing of infrastructure components is Industry Best Practice specifically because of it's stability. DHCP is often deployed on network segments which contain large numbers of end-user devices for convenience (who wants to manage thousands of constantly changing end-user devices manually?). With small networks (exactly what we're talking about here), DHCP is just unnecessary overhead. Will it function? Absolutely, although it will add latency.
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link to yamaha work around's: http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/global/en/products/peripherals/applications/m7clstagemix/
The verbiage:
Since the release of iOS 6, your iPad may try to access the Internet at the time of selecting a Wi-Fi Network. Depending on the set-up or model of your Wi-Fi device (Router or Access Point), the message of "cannot connect with the Internet" may appear on your iPad screen and StageMix will be unable to connect with a console.
Internet access is unnecessary for the connection between StageMix and console, so should you experience this you can prevent this message from appearing by disabling "Redirect Function for Internet connection" of your Wi-Fi device. Please ask the Wi-Fi device manufacturer about the way to disable "Redirect Function for Internet connection".
The solution number 2 if 1 doesn't work:
( Wi-Fi device settings )
1. Login to your Wi-Fi device using a web browser etc. and enter the set-up page.
2. Enable the DHCP server function in the setting page of step 1.
3. Set the upper and lower limits of the IP addresses the DHCP server can assign.
Ensure your console's IP address is outside this range, or reserve its IP address.
4. Set the Subnet Mask to the same value as the console.
5. Set the Router (Gateway) and DNS address if necessary.
6. Store the changes to apply.
7. Re-boot your Wi-Fi device if necessary.
( iPad settings )
8. Open "Settings" application on your iPad.
9. Select Wi-Fi.
10. Tap [ >] of Wi-Fi Network you are using.
11. Select [DHCP] under IP address. The iPad will receive the necessary DHCP data from the Wi-Fi device. Tap [Renew Lease] if it does not.
12. Double check that there is no IP address conflict between the console and iPad
13. Double check the iPad has received correct data for the Router and DNS address.
14. Launch StageMix and connect it to the console.
Not certain what the redirect thing is about. But I have not heard of any such thing on the IPAD. Having done the static address solution 100 times, with no love, solution two was the fix.
Now if addressing is the only thing I was doing wrong, then what was wrong? I'm pretty certain I had it right. I had proper IP addressing based on all the info that has currently been presented. Keep in mind I'm not arguing about which is better, or not as I realize that DHCP is not the highest performing way to go. But if it fixes the problem. I would like to see a good write up on what you guys do, that seem to have no issues. Perhaps I just need to place the network in a different third octet? I have told you what I did, what is wrong then?
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Hi David and Luke,
Here is the setup we use.
David, as we have an LS9-32, the laptop fits just to the left of the display area, so it doesn't use any more room - if you're using an LS9-16, no such luck.
Luke, am I one of the "both of you/you two" you mentioned? If not, you still might find the following information useful anyway, though we don't use Stage Mix for our production environment, so my setup is not the same as yours.
In any case, I hope this is helpful:
The hardware we're using that is networked:
1.) Yamaha LS9 (Cat5)
2.) Sennheiser Net1's (2 of them daisy-chained together with Cat5)
3.) HP Ultrabook (Cat5) with ASUS notebook as backup
4.) iPad (5GHz Wireless)
5.) Linksys E4200 Router (both 2.4 & 5 GHz)
6.) Bullet M5 Access Point (5GHz wireless with Cat5 to router)
Our software components:
1.) Sennheiser WSM
2.) Air Fader (Server Edition on HP Ultrabook, Client software on various Android devices)
3.) RealVNC (Server on HP Ultrabook, Viewer on iPad)
4.) Yamaha DME Network Driver, Studio Manager, LS9 Editor
Implementation steps:
Hard Code IP for Net-1 Units, Yamaha LS9, HP Ultrabook & ASUS - Static IP’s for wired interfaces only
The Ubiquiti Bullet WAP is also assigned a static IP.
01.) Configure router to use 30 DHCP addresses (100-129), assign SSID with security (WEP)
02.) Assign wired IP addresses in range above DHCP pool: 192.168.1.130-144 (Except for Ubiquiti Bullet)
a.) NET1-1 is 192.168.1.130
b.) NET1-2 is 192.168.1.131
c.) HP Ultrabook (Primary) is 192.168.1.132
d.) ASUS Notebook (Backup) is 192.168.1.133
e.) Yamaha LS9-32 is 192.168.1.135
f.) Bullet M5 is 192.168.1.20 – I couldn’t seem to change this, so I left it the way I received it.
03.) Install Yamaha DME Network Driver, Studio Manager, LS9 Editor, Sennheiser WSM, & Air Fader Server
a.) Install the Yamaha products in the order listed above following all documented steps.
b.) Install Sennheiser WSM & Air Fader Server
04.) Install RealVNC Server on HP Ultrabook
05.) Download and install RealVNC Viewer for iPad
06.) Set Static IP addresses for Sennheiser Net1’s using Web interface then power cycle
07.) Set both PC Static IP addresses for the wired interface (Adapter Properties)
09.) Connect Daisy-Chained NET1’s to router (IP: 192.168.1.130 & 131)
10.) Connect HP Ultrabook to router (IP: 192.168.1.132)
11.) Connect Yamaha LS9 to router (IP: 192.168.1.135)
12.) Connect Bullet M5 to router (IP: 192.168.1.20)
13.) Ensure that you can connect to the Sennheiser Net1's with WSM
13.) Start RealVNC Server on HP Ultrabook (later set to start with Windows)
14.) Start Air Fader Server on HP Ultrabook and click connect – Ensure connection to LS9
15.) Using the iPad, connect to the SSID that the router is using with the assigned security (WEP)
16.) Start RealVNC Viewer on the iPad and connect to the wired IP for the HP Ultrabook (192.168.1.132)
17.) Install Air Fader Client software on Android device (phone or tablet)
18.) Configure client permissions on Air Fader Server
19.) Connect to Air Fader Server using the IP address of the HP Ultrabook (192.168.1.132) from Android devices - These connections use the 2.4GHz radio in the router
20.) Check that access to allowed IEM mixes is correct
We have the 5GHz radio in the router as a backup, but leave it off.
Best regards,
Bob Charest
PS: Glad this thread happened - my documentation was out of date!
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Hi Luke,
That doesn't sound like any fun at all! The one thing that jumped out at me from a previous post you made was that the 3rd octet of your addressing scheme was "0" and I would have expected it to be "1" - but it wouldn't have worked at all if it was in a different subnet.
I might be even less help than I would like as my iPad is a 1st generation, and, as I mentioned, I don't use Stage Mix.
Did it work at all with your static IP scheme? If not, I would suspect the 3rd octet was the bear in the woodpile. I've screwed that up myself before.
Best regards,
Bob Charest
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Bob,
I was referring to Scott and Rob as the " two ". I didn't mean it in any derogatory way. They where the only two saying I did something wrong, but offered no ulterior solution. I was hoping I could prod them into giving some useful information. Yes I could get it to work, but it was only for short bursts. Keep in mind that connection with a regular computer was solid as a rock. Only the IPAD had issues. I wouldn't expect the OCTET to be an issue since the addressing was correct, but it could be high in traffic? Hard to say since it didn't matter where I was, the result was the same. What I can confirm, is that as long as the Ipad was not allowed to go sleep once a fresh connection was made, it would talk just fine all day. As soon as you closed the lid ( making Ipad sleep ) or closed the app and the re-opened it, you would loose connection within a minute or two. It would re-connect and then drop again every few minutes. To me there is a sync issue with the ipad and the app. As long as the app was using the initial connection it was good. Upon a newly engaged connection ( from the app, not the wireless settings ) it would not hold that connection for long.
I did some more digging and it does appear that router settings could effect performance? The IPAD does not have a redirect function for internet connections. I tried messing with some router settings to see if performance improved. I tried these settings ( not all of them ): http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2405997,00.asp
I changed the FT, RTS, Beacon interval, DTIM and turned off WMM and CTS and I also went to a long preamble instead of short. So far the stability is fine USING THE SAME ADDRESSES as before. So It may not always be an addressing problem. The IPAD may have issues with certain router settings? I got my router and only changed things like the SSID and security settings. The advanced stuff I left alone. Once I realized things were not gonna work that way I went to DHCP server status. That has now been disabled again and I am back to a static addressing set up. So far so good with about 30 min without connection loss.
Perhaps you guys could divulge router settings that may help?
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Some good news. Since making the router changes suggested in the above link I have been running over an hour straight with not 1 single drop out. I am back to a static address set up too. I have the exact same addresses that I used before and the latency is marginally lower vs. the other ways I ran it. To recap on what was done:
1. I went from a short to a long preamble.
2. I turned off cts and wmm options.
3. I switched the beacon interval from 100 to 50.
4. Fragment threshold was changed from 2346 to 2306.
5. R.T.S was changed from 2347 to 2307.
6. I changed the DTIM from 3 to 1.
7. I made the router address 192.168.0.1
8. I made the gateway address the same as the router address.
It seems at the moment that router setup and parameters have a huge effect on IPAD stability. I had issues as well when running VNC, but I rarely run that app. It sounds to me like packet loss, or the preamble length may have been the big issues? I will start to back track and see where failure occurs. At the moment this range of settings works very well for both the IPAD and the laptops.
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7. I made the router address 192.168.0.1
8. I made the gateway address the same as the router address.
Hi Luke,
Glad it's working! I'd responded (I thought) that I have all my router settings at default but I don't see that reply in the thread - maybe I didn't hit post.
Regarding points 7 & 8, what were your router and gateway addresses previously when you were having trouble?
Best regards,
Bob Charest
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The router was 192.168.2.2 and the gateway was blank. I followed the suggested settings in the Yamaha guide and still no performance gains. It seesm so far that router settings play a big part. Not all IOS and IPAD's have the same effect. It seems earlier gen. IPAD's are not as effected by the app and older IOS versions also seem more stable. If you go to the SM facebook page most of the posts are about stability issues. It seems like an isolated problem to those that don't experience it, but it's a pretty big deal in reality. It's not as simple as correct addressing, it seems to go even deeper than that. The suggested fixes will work, but it seems that a full router configuration is really the answer?
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Yamaha isn't the only ones suffering from these Apple network changes. We also had to change the network settings in our router so that the Router address and the dns address were the same to get our airport to work with our iPads. We also had to change the proxy settings in the ipad to manual and put an "a" the server box and a "1" in the port box because the iPad kept looking for an internet connection and once it did not find the internet it shut down the connection. This was for an iLive system Yamaha may have a different solution.
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The router was 192.168.2.2 and the gateway was blank. I followed the suggested settings in the Yamaha guide and still no performance gains. It seesm so far that router settings play a big part. Not all IOS and IPAD's have the same effect. It seems earlier gen. IPAD's are not as effected by the app and older IOS versions also seem more stable. If you go to the SM facebook page most of the posts are about stability issues. It seems like an isolated problem to those that don't experience it, but it's a pretty big deal in reality. It's not as simple as correct addressing, it seems to go even deeper than that. The suggested fixes will work, but it seems that a full router configuration is really the answer?
a lot of folks have had good look with the Airport routers. Wonder if since the Airport is made by apple it comes with settings that the ipad likes?
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Yamaha isn't the only ones suffering from these Apple network changes. We also had to change the network settings in our router so that the Router address and the dns address were the same to get our airport to work with our iPads. We also had to change the proxy settings in the ipad to manual and put an "a" the server box and a "1" in the port box because the iPad kept looking for an internet connection and once it did not find the internet it shut down the connection. This was for an iLive system Yamaha may have a different solution.
Reading further on the Proxy issues it seems it is an actual problem with the IPAD. There is a large group of people that seem to have issues with proxy settings. How did you come to find out that it was a proxy issue and how did you arrive at A and 1? I already have the DNS and gateway the same. I did that a while back to no avail. The only thing different at this point for me is the router settings I changed. I still haven't gone back through to see where the failure point is, but I will soon. I almost don't want to because things seem to be working good. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
according to this: http://appletoolbox.com/2010/04/ipad-wi-fi-problems-comprehensive-list-of-fixes/
There is mention of changing the Fragment threshold and the RTS threshold. They say 2048 and 512 respectively, but the 2306-2307 has been working well for me. I have always had auto brightness off and the brightness all the way up and I also have every unneeded option off such as bluetooth. It does also mention in another similar post to simply put the http proxy setting to manual and leave it alone. No need to change stuff. I have my proxy currently set as yours for testing and I have not seen issues yet. I wasn't before either though since my last update.
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according to this: http://appletoolbox.com/2010/04/ipad-wi-fi-problems-comprehensive-list-of-fixes/
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Based on the URL, I suspect that article is 2-3 years old, which in the software world is something like 100 years. Lots of changes in firmware and software since then.
A note on the proxy settings, I'd be somewhat surprised if anyone is actually running a proxy server in their live sound rig, and if so, I' am very curious why you are running a proxy server and how you are using it.
It's helpful to know what the settings actually do.
The Apple Toolbox article looks like someone surfed a bunch of web site and wrote down tips from a bunch of people with unknown qualifications. Networking really isn't voodoo.
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I wouldn't guess there to be a proxy either. But considering that there is either those with no problem and those with a definite problem, anything is possible. Networking isn't voodoo, or at least it should be as easy as it seems, but when silly things like changing router setting makes, or breaks the whole deal, it's up in the air. Pretty much why I'm hoping others will chime in and release router settings and what they did exactly. It's either left, or right field at the moment. I'm having good luck right now, but a month ago I couldn't use the app for more than two minutes. I have tried everything in the book and up until DHCP server and changing router settings I have had no luck. Wrong addressing my ass, something is up........ This isn't my first rodeo, but when things are beyond the current knowledge base, you resort to what works. Either apple, or Yamaha needs to figure something out to truly help. So far Yamaha's DHCP server advise gets the job done. The router adjustments I have made seem to be holding up and as I test more I will report back. I get the feeling it's beacon interval and packet size that are really the issue. I would still like to see what most peoples preamble length is to see if there is a clue there? Any info at this point can really help nail it down. The problem exists, it's nailing down the actual cause that seems to elude us all. The solution ( workarounds ) seem to work,but it would be nice to run the system as intended......
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I have tried everything in the book and up until DHCP server and changing router settings I have had no luck. Wrong addressing my ass, something is up........ This isn't my first rodeo, but when things are beyond the current knowledge base, you resort to what works.
Let's try this one last time. A DHCP server simply assigns IP Addressing from a pre-defined pool. It provides each device with the address, subnet mask, and default gateway information. The only other thing that it does is manage the leases on that information. If you think that this was the fix, then your addressing was wrong. If, however, you implemented other router changes at the same time, then your answer lies somewhere in the router changes that you made. In that case, DHCP isn't the cure, the router changes are. Network communications aren't voodoo - they're science.
I'd love to spend some time with your set-up and a packet sniffer/network analyser. Maybe then, we could actually get to the bottom of this. I guarantee that the DHCP server isn't fixing anything but addressing. This is like saying, "I changed the power cord and the comb filtering problem went away." Both of those statements may be true, but one did not affect the other.
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So I spent some more time testing today. I went through feature for feature and think I have it nailed down as to what may be the exact issue with IPAD stability. The below all relate to router settings.
The fragment threshold size doesn't seem to matter. Stock setting or anywhere near it is fine.
The RTS threshold is the same. Stock or close to it is fine.
The beacon interval doesn't seem to matter I left mine at 50 to help retain the connection. However 100 works too.
The DTIM setting doesn't matter, but it should be noted that a higher level may increase battery life on the IPAD when not being used, but connected to that network. I placed mine at 5 for such reasons, in trying to get an entire day out of the IPAD which would usually need to be connected to power at some point. Worth a shot anyway.......
The CTS was turned off as it has no use for what we are doing and it can reduce router performance. It is meant for high traffic networks and in our case it shouldn't be an issue.
WMM was turned off. There seems to be no change in performance, but it has been noted that it may improve performance on network devises like IPADS. In either case it's not needed for what the use of the desk is for.
I disabled the WPS ( wi-fi protection setup ) as it is again not needed for our application.
The preamble length didn't seem to matter, however I was in close proximity to the desk and I have very little traffic in my area. The short preamble should have better performance, but may lose stability in " noisy " networks or when at the edge of range. Again it shouldn't be a problem with us, but long preamble works better for stability and may be just as fast as short preamble settings in close proximity. I set mine for short in hopes of reducing latency. It's a matter of taste. Something to play with if you are having stability issues. The preamble length is the only other thing that could really increase stability. The long preamble should work better in long range situations where you are further from the desk.
What did make a difference and lead to nearly instant failure was router address and gateway settings. The stock address for the router was outside of the network range. Mine also did not have a gateway address placed in that field. When placed back in the stock settings with a blank gateway address, I had loss of connection quickly, even after resetting the IPAD for the new settings. I found that you need to place the routers management address in the same range as the rest of the network. You should also place the appropriate gateway address in the routers gateway address field. I made it the same as the gateway address in the desk. As soon as this was adjusted and reset in the IPAD connection was again stable.
Under advisement I moved my network to a different range. I went to a new third octet range and performance is the same. Shouldn't matter really either way. So far after an hour connected to the desk the IPAD has been stable and I have been trying different ways to make the IPAD lose connection to no avail. It appears solid and I can say that it is router settings that play the part. My guess is some routers stock have just what the IPAD wants and others do not?
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What did make a difference and lead to nearly instant failure was router address and gateway settings. The stock address for the router was outside of the network range. Mine also did not have a gateway address placed in that field. When placed back in the stock settings with a blank gateway address, I had loss of connection quickly, even after resetting the IPAD for the new settings. I found that you need to place the routers management address in the same range as the rest of the network. You should also place the appropriate gateway address in the routers gateway address field. I made it the same as the gateway address in the desk. As soon as this was adjusted and reset in the IPAD connection was again stable.
Under advisement I moved my network to a different range. I went to a new third octet range and performance is the same. Shouldn't matter really either way. So far after an hour connected to the desk the IPAD has been stable and I have been trying different ways to make the IPAD lose connection to no avail. It appears solid and I can say that it is router settings that play the part. My guess is some routers stock have just what the IPAD wants and others do not?
Looks like you've found your addressing problem. With a class C subnet mask (24 bit or 255.255.255.0), the first three octets (numbers between the dots) define the network. All devices on your network MUST be on the same network segment to communicate. In order to communicate between different network segments, you need a device (switch, router, bridge) that is co-located on each segment with appropriate rules in place to direct traffic.
Once you addressed the router (or WAP, in this case) within the same network segment as your other devices, it all worked, and should continue to do so. Bravo on the troubleshooting. I'm glad you found the answer.
The reason that the DHCP server helped is that it configured all of your devices within the same network segment - allowing them to communicate. Now that you've resolved that issue, static IP addressing should help your WAP to use it's increased resource pool to run more efficiently.
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My guess is some routers stock have just what the IPAD wants and others do not?
so this would suggest the possibility that this is the reason more folks have had success with the airport.
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is the airport extreme and upgrade from the airport express for using an ipad to run an LS9 remotely? Does the extreme have more range and better connectivity, or is the difference in capabilities that would not be used in this application?
So I tried everything everyone said to do, and it didn't work, I'm sure because I didn't do it right. I tried the DHCP option, and it works perfectly! Mixed all three one hour sets on it last night with no dropouts!
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After many different approaches it still seems to me that the DHCP is the most stable. I can get it to work fine using static, but every now and then it fails. The DHCP always stable an trouble free. This is despite the supposed lack of stability and security involved with DHCP. I see the pitfalls of DHCP, but it works and that is what matters.
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After many different approaches it still seems to me that the DHCP is the most stable. I can get it to work fine using static, but every now and then it fails. The DHCP always stable an trouble free. This is despite the supposed lack of stability and security involved with DHCP. I see the pitfalls of DHCP, but it works and that is what matters.
Network configuration requires that it be exactly correct for all parameters. Sometimes it's best to let the bots handle it. Of course, there are only three parameters on each device (IP Address, Subnet Mask, and Default Gateway). It shouldn't be that hard to get that correct. We soundie-types live in a world where attention to detail rules the day.
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I have tried and tried again, to no certain avail. I am as certain as bears shit in the woods though, that I got the addressing correct. I have gotten it to be very stable using static, but it seems to fail on occasion. The only way that never ever fails is DHCP, don't know why? I can address the units static with the same addresses handed out by DHCP and the results are the same; I eventually get a fail. I ran a 3 hour show this last Friday using 100% Ipad and had not one connection loss using DHCP. I have had similar luck with the static addressing, but when you least expect it, loss.
My guess would be that using static, if the addressing is correct it will work, if it's not, it will not work. So if you can get the SM app to work at all, it shouldn't have an issue? But with some people ( including me ) it is not stable and connection loss occurs. The people that don't have the issues, seem to think the rest of us are crazy, or are unable to set the correct parameters. I have another show coming up soon that will utilize the LS9 and I will be trying again with static addressing. The major pitfall seems to be when you close the app and or the Ipads lid. It's not a guarantee that you will have stability when you come back. With DHCP this doesn't seem to be an issue. I'm not known to be a quitter, so I will try and try again until I win. I just don't see why something that is so easy, is being so difficult?
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I have tried and tried again, to no certain avail. I am as certain as bears shit in the woods though, that I got the addressing correct. I have gotten it to be very stable using static, but it seems to fail on occasion. The only way that never ever fails is DHCP, don't know why? I can address the units static with the same addresses handed out by DHCP and the results are the same; I eventually get a fail. I ran a 3 hour show this last Friday using 100% Ipad and had not one connection loss using DHCP. I have had similar luck with the static addressing, but when you least expect it, loss.
My guess would be that using static, if the addressing is correct it will work, if it's not, it will not work. So if you can get the SM app to work at all, it shouldn't have an issue? But with some people ( including me ) it is not stable and connection loss occurs. The people that don't have the issues, seem to think the rest of us are crazy, or are unable to set the correct parameters. I have another show coming up soon that will utilize the LS9 and I will be trying again with static addressing. The major pitfall seems to be when you close the app and or the Ipads lid. It's not a guarantee that you will have stability when you come back. With DHCP this doesn't seem to be an issue. I'm not known to be a quitter, so I will try and try again until I win. I just don't see why something that is so easy, is being so difficult?
I had so many dropouts using static that I was not able to use the ipad as my main mixing source. After changing to DHCP, this last weekend on one 4 hour show I used it as backup, but it wound up being main it was absolutely stable. I shut the ipad down after each 1 hour set, then start it back up. Perfect every time. Saturday night I got to use it for what I had intended. I put the mixer at the stage so I didn't have to run my snake. I would have had to run the snake over people eating. I ran the mix on ipad from DJ booth at the back of the club. Why do it any other way since DHCP works so well?
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I have tried and tried again, to no certain avail. I am as certain as bears shit in the woods though, that I got the addressing correct. I have gotten it to be very stable using static, but it seems to fail on occasion. The only way that never ever fails is DHCP, don't know why? I can address the units static with the same addresses handed out by DHCP and the results are the same; I eventually get a fail. I ran a 3 hour show this last Friday using 100% Ipad and had not one connection loss using DHCP. I have had similar luck with the static addressing, but when you least expect it, loss.
My guess would be that using static, if the addressing is correct it will work, if it's not, it will not work. So if you can get the SM app to work at all, it shouldn't have an issue? But with some people ( including me ) it is not stable and connection loss occurs. The people that don't have the issues, seem to think the rest of us are crazy, or are unable to set the correct parameters. I have another show coming up soon that will utilize the LS9 and I will be trying again with static addressing. The major pitfall seems to be when you close the app and or the Ipads lid. It's not a guarantee that you will have stability when you come back. With DHCP this doesn't seem to be an issue. I'm not known to be a quitter, so I will try and try again until I win. I just don't see why something that is so easy, is being so difficult?
If using static addresses you must choose them to be outside the address range supplied by the DHCP service. Why? Well, the DHCP service doesn't know you took one of it's addresses and it may assign it to another device and now you have 2 devices withe same address which will be VERY unreliable.
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If using static addresses you must choose them to be outside the address range supplied by the DHCP service. Why? Well, the DHCP service doesn't know you took one of it's addresses and it may assign it to another device and now you have 2 devices withe same address which will be VERY unreliable.
Better yet, when using static addressing, disable the DHCP service completely.
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Luke,
I don't blame you for feeling frustrated... sometimes this stuff really gets under my skin as well. While I also want to use what works, I always want to know exactly why it does work or doesn't.
I'm with Rob on possible conflict between DHCP assigned addresses and addresses that are assigned manually. Especially, if you give devices addresses that were previously assigned by DHCP, it would seem that those addresses still remain in the pool of eligible DHCP addresses, which would not be good.
In my router configs (at home and on the gig) I allow DHCP a 30-address range from 192.168.1.100 to 192.168.1.129. My static addresses begin at 192.168.1.130 through 192.168.1.135 with the exception of our Ubiquiti Bullet 5GHz Access Point - that address ia 192.168.1.20 as I had trouble changing it. I've assigned all static IP addresses to only wired interfaces, even on the PC running AirFader attached to the router.
With this setup, everything is on the same subnet (the subnet mask is 255.255.255.0) and there is capacity for DHCP devices if they are needed.
For me, the additional benefit is that all my portable devices work either at home or on the gig.
I've attached our network config document as a jpg in case it can be of help. This thread motivated me to go back and check my documentation which was out of date :)
Best regards,
Bob Charest
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If using static addresses you must choose them to be outside the address range supplied by the DHCP service. Why? Well, the DHCP service doesn't know you took one of it's addresses and it may assign it to another device and now you have 2 devices withe same address which will be VERY unreliable.
+1, disable the DHCP server when you are using static IP addresses (or use restrict the addresses that DHCP serves and don't use them for static addresses.
Having DHCP be more reliable than a properly configured static address (including no DHCP server giving out your static address to other devices) basically defies logic.
It may be timing/coincidence that you are finding DHCP more reliable. After a few hundred shows you might see a different outcome, or figure out your access point is overheating,....
However, having developed commercial software on and off for much of the past 40+ years, I can attest that software 'bugs' often cause problems that do not exist in the design. If DHCP is working for you, be happy and make music and don't fret over the theoretical possibility that you may be crazy, crazy is acceptable, perhaps even normal, in this industry. ::)
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+1, disable the DHCP server when you are using static IP addresses (or use restrict the addresses that DHCP serves and don't use them for static addresses.
Having DHCP be more reliable than a properly configured static address (including no DHCP server giving out your static address to other devices) basically defies logic.
It may be timing/coincidence that you are finding DHCP more reliable. After a few hundred shows you might see a different outcome, or figure out your access point is overheating,....
However, having developed commercial software on and off for much of the past 40+ years, I can attest that software 'bugs' often cause problems that do not exist in the design. If DHCP is working for you, be happy and make music and don't fret over the theoretical possibility that you may be crazy, crazy is acceptable, perhaps even normal, in this industry. ::)
I think it's great that some of you guys know so much about computers, speak the language, but I do not. I can't even follow the steps you guys provide. I did get mine to work with DHCP and I am happy! There is a glitch in ios5 (I think that's the one) that causes some of the problems. Many of us had exactly the same problem. I'm sure there was a better fix, but mine is working now, and I'm leaving it alone. In my past life as a machinist I went by the old adage, if it aint broke, don't try to fix it! You guys are a true asset to this community.
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Any time I use static addressing, I disable DHCP. I have tried addresses from both ends of the globe with static and the results are still typical. I'm beginning to be convinced that not all IPADS are created equal? I have another friend with an IPAD mini and with static, it has never had an issue. Same settings as mine for comparative measures too.
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IME:
Default Gateway in all units should be set to the IP address of the router. UNLESS the router is getting internet access from another router or modem, and you want your devices to have internet access. In this case, the DG should be the IP of the router/modem that connects to the internet (Windows devices don't care, Apple devices won't connect to the internet otherwise.) Same goes with Primary DNS and Secondary DNS.
House internet will usually be xxx.xxx.xxx.1, so I make my router 100, and start its DHCP (if I have it on) well above the last IP I'll use (such as 140).
I had a map of my network, but I lost it (aaaaggghhh).
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Just I bit of information that might be useful. If you can't remember the DNS server settings when assigning static IPs 8.8.8.8 is the address for Google's DNS server and 8.8.4.4 is their secondary. These should always work, they are what I use when assigning static addresses to any device I deal with. Sometimes they even respond faster than the Internet Provider's DNS server. Anyway this doesn't pertain much to configuring systems that are strictly used for audio work(no Internet) but it is useful for a situation where you do need the Internet.
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Found the map. Where the heck is the 'not quick' reply so I can upload it?
I had to modify this in IE, as in FireFox it would not upload the pic. WTH?