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Title: Thoughts on single mic approach for festival stage
Post by: Mike Christy on April 07, 2014, 06:51:03 PM
I've got one of those "challenging"  semi-festival jobs coming up, many performers over the afternoon. The curve ball is some of the acts - they range from DJs, to 6 Ukuleles in one act, 4 saxes in another, 'jo and fiddle, several rock bands, even a Hurdy-Gurdy solo.

To simplify patching and to keep my mind intact during change over (and reduced channel count) it seems logical to use the ole bluegrass group around a single mic for the multi-instrument acts (ukes and saxes) but the GBF for the ukes has me worried, the saxes, not so much.

The more I think out loud about it, I doubt the players would know to step forward during their solo... sigh...

Any thoughts or guidance on this, or just suck it up and close mic everything?

Thanks,
Mike
Title: Re: Thoughts on single mic approach for festival stage
Post by: Rob Spence on April 07, 2014, 07:53:47 PM
I have used a single VP88 for percussion on a studio stand. Just roll it over once they set up.

Dedicated mics on stands with cables labeled for the channel.
If gtr, grab mic on gtr ch. Label the board for worst case then add tape for what you actually are using for an act?


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Title: Re: Thoughts on single mic approach for festival stage
Post by: Jerry Turnbow on April 07, 2014, 08:16:48 PM
Been there, done it, hated it!  That was the fad here for quite a while with bluegrass groups, particularly after "Oh Brother, Where Art Thou" came out some time back.  While I've seen one or two groups pull it off successfully, most cannot, and have no concept of the inverse square law.  And if they want monitors as well, it's almost impossible to get any GBF on them.

That's my $ .02, anyway, and yes, I played bluegrass for about 10 years back in the day.  We always used individual mics, so that the sound person could do their job.
Title: Re: Thoughts on single mic approach for festival stage
Post by: Robert Weston on April 07, 2014, 08:17:29 PM
There's a show we do every year; multi performances w/banjos, violins, guitars, vocals.  We ended up using two mics - keeping the "arc of performers" large enough that they weren't running into each other.  Though, they all know when to step forward and back when performing.  A single mic would have probably worked, but we usually have more than 5 performers.
Title: Re: Thoughts on single mic approach for festival stage
Post by: Jerry Burns on April 07, 2014, 08:28:29 PM
There's a show we do every year; multi performances w/banjos, violins, guitars, vocals.  We ended up using two mics - keeping the "arc of performers" large enough that they weren't running into each other.  Though, they all know when to step forward and back when performing.  A single mic would have probably worked, but we usually have more than 5 performers.
We do a lot of Festivals and I wire all the stages about the same. 4 mic's across the front of the stage from a front drop snake that has 8 channels so we can add if needed and a back drop snake in the middle with 12 inputs for drums and back line. This way the drum channels are always the same and bass is also always the same, guitars next and Keys can go to the front snake or the back with DI's. All the mic's can be set aside if needed and the center of the stage has no cords so dance group's have room. It's worked for a lot of festivals with every king of act you can imagine. Thanks 
Title: Re: Thoughts on single mic approach for festival stage
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on April 07, 2014, 08:30:08 PM
Mike...

I'd think about 4 corded SDC's, a few ready DI's and 4 wireless mics.  Mix and match as needed.  Side-wash monitors.

Put a 12 channel drop snake center stage rear for the kit and any back-line.  One drum set for the day, usually provided by the last drummer on the program.  Same with amps...one bass, one keys and one or two for guitars.

It shouldn't take very long to get each group going, the limiting factor being their level of focus and commitment.

Title: Re: Thoughts on single mic approach for festival stage
Post by: Mike Christy on April 07, 2014, 08:36:16 PM
Thanks for the sanity check guys. I happen to have a 12 and 8 chan drop stake, and using those was one of my strategies, except reversed (8 upstage, 12 downstage). I may try simply doubling up instruments on one mic ( 2 ukes to 1 mic, 2 saxes to 1 mic, etc), Ill report back after the gig 4/27.

Thanks for your replies,
Mike



Title: Re: Thoughts on single mic approach for festival stage
Post by: Art Welter on April 08, 2014, 03:06:36 AM
I may try simply doubling up instruments on one mic ( 2 ukes to 1 mic, 2 saxes to 1 mic, etc), Ill report back after the gig 4/27.
Mike,

Jerry Turnbow is correct, there are few performers that can effectively share mics, and even if they can, it requires a lot of rehearsal time unavailable in a festival situation.

Two sax players can both present about 120 dB in to a shared mic standing side by side.
A pair of uke players foot to foot, face to face can produce about 20 dB less, background noise may be as loud at the mic.

Have enough mics to cover each vocal and string instrument individually, tape a label on each stand so you can quickly move them into position for whatever comes your way.

Go for it, move ahead, you can whip it, whip it good..
Title: Re: Thoughts on single mic approach for festival stage
Post by: Mike Christy on April 08, 2014, 03:13:29 AM
Mike,

Jerry Turnbow is correct, there are few performers that can effectively share mics, and even if they can, it requires a lot of rehearsal time unavailable in a festival situation.

Two sax players can both present about 120 dB in to a shared mic standing side by side.
A pair of uke players foot to foot, face to face can produce about 20 dB less, background noise may be as loud at the mic.

Have enough mics to cover each vocal and string instrument individually, tape a label on each stand so you can quickly move them into position for whatever comes your way.

Go for it, move ahead, you can whip it, whip it good..

lol That's gonna be our motto for the day, Whip it, Whip it Good. lol

Title: Re: Thoughts on single mic approach for festival stage
Post by: Mark McFarlane on April 11, 2014, 02:04:25 AM
One thing that has been a blessing for me at many festivals, in addition to labeling mics and cables and DI boxes (guitar, keys,...), is to use colored foam windscreens on all the mics. 

I can always tell what mic is where during the show. Color selection is important, as color identification gets more problematic as the sun sets or the colored lights come on, e.g. green and blue may become indistinguishable.

Audiopile has quite good quality windscreens for $1 that fit ball mics.  If you have a bunch of SM57 stye mics out you can use colored tape on the mic bodies, or tape on colored windscreens. 

I used to wash my windscreens, now I throw them out.  http://www.audiopile.net/products/Microphones/WINDSCREENS/WS-V1_Mic_Windscreen_cutsheet.shtml

Windscreens are also your friend when the wind kicks up mid-day....
Title: Re: Thoughts on single mic approach for festival stage
Post by: Tommy Peel on April 12, 2014, 02:03:32 AM
Too bad you can't count on the Uke players having electric/acoustic models. One of the guys in the church band I mix for has one and plays it when we have an acoustic set. Sounds great and is a piece of cake for me; passive DI and I'm good to go. :-)

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Title: Re: Thoughts on single mic approach for festival stage
Post by: Bob Leonard on April 12, 2014, 07:22:04 AM
Mike...

I'd think about 4 corded SDC's, a few ready DI's and 4 wireless mics.  Mix and match as needed.  Side-wash monitors.

Put a 12 channel drop snake center stage rear for the kit and any back-line.  One drum set for the day, usually provided by the last drummer on the program.  Same with amps...one bass, one keys and one or two for guitars.

It shouldn't take very long to get each group going, the limiting factor being their level of focus and commitment.

 
This is the approach I would take. Not only are the chances of success increased by using this method of approach, but you're in Maine. Read what you want with that statement.  ;D
Title: Re: Thoughts on single mic approach for festival stage
Post by: Keith Broughton on April 12, 2014, 08:05:56 AM
I usually set out 5 wired vocal mics (SM 58 )from stage right to left Labeled VOC 1thru 5 then 6 XLR cables on the floor labeled INST 1 thru 6 and set out 6 (SM57) and 6 DI boxes. VOC 1 and INST 1 remain at the same location.
The vocal mics look as different as possible to the instrument mics.
If you preset the vocal mic  levels in the monitors, you only have to deal with instrument levels and things can get going pretty fast without too much trouble.

Note: label the cable end not the mic or DI so when that helpful stagehand unplugs everything, you still know what's what.

As for the single mic option, I have not done that on a festival stage but it is worth a try if the act doesn't need monitors.

Have fun. :)
Title: Re: Thoughts on single mic approach for festival stage
Post by: James A. Griffin on April 13, 2014, 06:18:37 PM
it seems logical to use the ole bluegrass group around a single mic for the multi-instrument acts (ukes and saxes) but the GBF for the ukes has me worried, the saxes, not so much.

The more I think out loud about it, I doubt the players would know to step forward during their solo... sigh...

Let's all remember that the reason the old timers did that is because they only had one or two mics to work with, not because it was the best way to mic a band.  Some bands adapted pretty well to it, others didn't.

When a band of youngsters tell me they want only 2 mics because that's the way Bill Monroe did it, I don't know whether to laugh or cringe.  More often, it's the latter.  One particular band I work with from time to time insists on that approach and it never works well for them.  They think they sound pretty good and refuse to let me show them how much better they'd sound with mics on all voices and instruments.
Title: Re: Thoughts on single mic approach for festival stage
Post by: Jerome Malsack on April 13, 2014, 09:39:16 PM
We could always go back and look at the history. 

http://www.mixingconsole.org/web/main/history/


Title: Re: Thoughts on single mic approach for festival stage
Post by: Cailen Waddell on April 13, 2014, 09:57:04 PM
I'm not sure I would use this approach in a festival situation.  For me it would be about unpredictable gain before feedback.   That said - it's a valid approach, and any ensemble or group that aspires to play at a level that allows for a single mic is fine by me. After all, it can only make them better.

This is a common approach for us when we host a yearly barbershop concert with a number of groups.  My only issue is that some of them request a monitor, which can get extremely difficult when they are all arms length from a large diaphragm condenser.
Title: Re: Thoughts on single mic approach for festival stage
Post by: Brian Jojade on April 15, 2014, 03:34:51 PM
I have had exactly zero success in working with bands that want to use a single condenser mic in a live situation. Sure, it can work great in a controlled studio environment, and give the artist that 'sound' they desire.  But in a live situation, it is extremely difficult to get enough gain before feedback when you are so far away from the mic.  That whole inverse square law thing comes into play pretty quickly.  Maybe with in-ear monitors and a large enough stage it would be possible.

I recently had to work with a 2 piece band that insisted they wanted to use their studio mic in a small bar.  So, I obliged and plugged it in and set it as high as I could. No monitors because that would have made things worse.  I let them do a sound check for a song and then told them to try singing into the regular mics instead.  They were blown away at how much better it sounded in a live environment versus using their studio condenser.  In fact, they had many groupies that showed up that night and said they sounded better than they ever had at a live show.  I really wonder if they continue to use their condenser when they play other places.

With a festival setup, I like setting a snake and patch on each side of the stage.  If I know what the plots are for every band, it makes it easier to decide what is pre-patched where.  Labeling cables and the patch bay are crucial to change and move things as needed.  I try t o keep the wire number to the snake consistent, then label the snake with the patch to the board, using soft patching if necessary.  Tape and a sharpie is your friend during the change over.

Between setups, I try to take things back to original configuration whenever possible.  i.e., if a mic was changed for band 2 from the original set config, and band 3 doesn't need it, I change it back to its original configuration so it's ready for band 4.  That way, during the change, you are dealing with as familiar of a configuration as possible.
Title: Re: Thoughts on single mic approach for festival stage
Post by: Jay Barracato on April 15, 2014, 04:31:17 PM
I have and will continue to use various one mic setups in a live setting...

However,

It is not really our decision as a sound tech.

If the band is committed to the technique and are willing to practice, it can be effective.

The day of the show is not the time to be experimenting with something new.

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Title: Re: Thoughts on single mic approach for festival stage
Post by: Tim Perry on April 15, 2014, 10:40:37 PM
I have and will continue to use various one mic setups in a live setting...

However,

It is not really our decision as a sound tech.

If the band is committed to the technique and are willing to practice, it can be effective.

The day of the show is not the time to be experimenting with something new.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

This group illustrates you point.  The is a modified one mic technique. Much of the act involves then moving around each other and trading places at the mic. True professionals and talented musicians, it is the last thing a sound guy should do is tell them how to perform.

I do tell my local friends who play small venues that it a BAD idea when they bring it up but on a regular stage its manageable. 
Title: Re: Thoughts on single mic approach for festival stage
Post by: Lyle Williams on April 16, 2014, 11:39:30 AM
For "talent show" stuff, I just have lots of mics/stands and DIs.  Just drag together what looks like it will work and push the other stuff out of the way.

Sometimes this ends up being SDC on a tall boom over the band, plus a dynamic mic for the vocalist.  About half the volume ends up being native band sound and the other half comes from the SR system.  At least it is easy to keep the vocals on top.

When a dozen people end up on stage you can't mic them all in 60sec.

Title: Re: Thoughts on single mic approach for festival stage
Post by: Jeffrey Knorr - JRKLabs.com on April 16, 2014, 09:48:20 PM
I have and will continue to use various one mic setups in a live setting...

However,

It is not really our decision as a sound tech.

If the band is committed to the technique and are willing to practice, it can be effective.

The day of the show is not the time to be experimenting with something new.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

+1! We do this all the time for bands that have the one mic configuration as their preference. It all comes down to properly deploying the rig for the gig and ensuring that you have enough GBF. Putting the stacks with poor pattern control on the front corners of the stage is NOT going to work. You can't beat the laws of physics but you can try to use them to your advantage.

Jeff
Title: Re: Thoughts on single mic approach for festival stage
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 17, 2014, 10:27:06 AM
+1! We do this all the time for bands that have the one mic configuration as their preference. It all comes down to properly deploying the rig for the gig and ensuring that you have enough GBF. Putting the stacks with poor pattern control on the front corners of the stage is NOT going to work. You can't beat the laws of physics but you can try to use them to your advantage.

Jeff

This. Right. Here.

IF the problem with the single mic technique is the band choreography, that's their problem.  Yeah, I know it's a pain in the ass when the punters come up to complain, but when you point out the mandolin player is further from the mic than the banjo player you can get your point across a lot better than "oh shit, I didn't turn up the mando mic...."

One of my favorite gigs is an acoustic/bluegrass festival.  Main stage is in front of a county fairgrounds grand stand 295' long with a capacity of almost 6,000 including the track between the stands and the stage.  Single mic acts are welcome!  Hybrid (single LDC with a SDC to the left & right) are welcome.  Individually miced voices and instruments are welcome.  Careful system deployment and judicious EQ means we can take the this front porch music and share its intimacy with those 6,000 folks.  And we can do it in a club or smaller facility too.

Most of the issues involved in technique resolve themselves as system techs and mixerpersons gain experience.  There is no magic bullet, you have to make some shitty sound and figure out why/how it happened and then apply that experience to the next gig.  You learn, apply, then evolve.  Rinse and repeat.
Title: Re: Thoughts on single mic approach for festival stage
Post by: Mike Christy on April 17, 2014, 06:40:05 PM
Thanks again everyone for posting, good stuff as usual. At this point Ive opted for a generic close micing approach with dedicated groups of mics - then simply bring in what is needed for each act: 4 ATM450s, 2 PR30s, 2 ProDIs, 2 Pro48s, 4 PR35s, a miced kit, 3 laptop DIs - this should cover me. The SDCs will cover the grouped instruments, and when there is more than 4 they will share.

Ill post the results after next week, when I recover!

Mike

Edit: The thanks is meant for everyone except Leonard....
Title: Re: Thoughts on single mic approach for festival stage
Post by: Mike Christy on April 29, 2014, 05:47:26 AM
Had a successful gig despite rain ( rain in April, who-da-thought?). I do only a one or two of these types of multi-act festival style gigs a year, so you guy's input was helpful. Labeling mic stands and utilization of drop snakes, along with power strings up and down stage were key.Thanks again. Here's some pictures, everyone one loves pictures!

Mike

Title: Re: Thoughts on single mic approach for festival stage
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on April 29, 2014, 06:11:24 AM
Had a successful gig despite rain ( rain in April, who-da-thought?). I do only a one or two of these types of multi-act festival style gigs a year, so you guy's input was helpful. Labeling mic stands and utilization of drop snakes, along with power strings up and down stage were key.Thanks again. Here's some pictures, everyone one loves pictures!

Mike

 Now you can appreciate why I have lots of  short mic stands....
Title: Re: Thoughts on single mic approach for festival stage
Post by: Mike Christy on April 29, 2014, 07:19:14 AM
Now you can appreciate why I have lots of  short mic stands....

Hi Dick! Yup  ;D  I KNEW Id get some mic etiquette pokes ( they also double as lightning rods to protect the performers ) Actually their length was needed several times, so a trade off...
Title: Re: Thoughts on single mic approach for festival stage
Post by: Rob Spence on April 29, 2014, 12:26:57 PM
Those the new JTRs along with your first pair?

How is Kelly?


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Title: Re: Thoughts on single mic approach for festival stage
Post by: Mike Christy on April 29, 2014, 01:04:41 PM
Those the new JTRs along with your first pair?

How is Kelly?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Hi Rob!! They TX3 are working well. I used them 2X last weekend: Friday for a multi-act event in Portsmouth in a large square room with brick walls, and this outdoor event here. I think some of the best detailed and dense mixes I got on them were the Indian instrument group and an electronic group with the Theriman. They couple nicely with the Growlers too.

K is good, she always asks how your doing.

Take Care,
M
Title: Re: Thoughts on single mic approach for festival stage
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on April 29, 2014, 01:13:19 PM
Hi Dick! Yup  ;D  I KNEW Id get some mic etiquette pokes ( they also double as lightning rods to protect the performers ) Actually their length was needed several times, so a trade off...

I have a few AT Pro7's that I can stuff inside mandolins, dulcimers and such thus dispensing with the need for any stand at all.  My cooection of short stands started specifically to do Indian ensembles seated on the floor, so the groups in the photos are very familiar to me.  I probably do more of this variety stuff than bands.

Fun, eh?
Title: Re: Thoughts on single mic approach for festival stage
Post by: Mike Christy on April 29, 2014, 01:37:28 PM
I have a few AT Pro7's that I can stuff inside mandolins, dulcimers and such thus dispensing with the need for any stand at all.  My cooection of short stands started specifically to do Indian ensembles seated on the floor, so the groups in the photos are very familiar to me.  I probably do more of this variety stuff than bands.

Fun, eh?

Dick, The one thing that threw me was that little Indian electronic drone box thingy, i had no idea.... I put a PR-30 on it's little 4 inch speaker and all was good.

Ummmmmmmmm Ummmmmm


Title: Re: Thoughts on single mic approach for festival stage
Post by: Tim Perry on April 29, 2014, 10:19:50 PM
Dick, The one thing that threw me was that little Indian electronic drone box thingy, i had no idea.... I put a PR-30 on it's little 4 inch speaker and all was good.

Ummmmmmmmm Ummmmmm

Harmonium
Title: Re: Thoughts on single mic approach for festival stage
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on April 29, 2014, 11:16:54 PM
Harmonium

Electr(on)ic tambura...
Title: Re: Thoughts on single mic approach for festival stage
Post by: Mike Christy on April 30, 2014, 05:24:10 AM
Electr(on)ic tambura...

Thats it.