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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Nick Davis on June 23, 2014, 10:47:02 AM
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Any one got any opinions on the HK Audi Contour active line array systems?
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Any one got any opinions on the HK Audi Contour active line array systems?
Reviving a very old thread?
Anyway, I've never heard of HK Audio. Looked it up looks like cheap Chinese crap. Also rather low output for the modules as well.
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Reviving a very old thread?
Anyway, I've never heard of HK Audio. Looked it up looks like cheap Chinese crap. Also rather low output for the modules as well.
Ah yes - more well known in Europe than over the pond ( like everyone else may well now manufacture in china - but are a German company)
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Reviving a very old thread?
Anyway, I've never heard of HK Audio. Looked it up looks like cheap Chinese crap. Also rather low output for the modules as well.
I think HK is Hummel and Klein. IIRC there are/were distributed here by Sennheiser USA.
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I think HK is Hummel and Klein. IIRC there are/were distributed here by Sennheiser USA.
This is what I found for "HK Audio" http://hkaudio.us/index.php they have the line array he listed. It doesn't look to be the same as Hummel and Klein to me.
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This is what I found for "HK Audio" http://hkaudio.us/index.php they have the line array he listed. It doesn't look to be the same as Hummel and Klein to me.
NO not the " line array" thingy on a stick but this one http://hkaudio.com/products.php?sid=11 -
- the amps being in the subs
& here
http://www.theaudioworksuk.com/index.php/active-pa-systems/hk-audio-cta-208-cta-118-contour-array-8000w-active-pa-system.html (sorry about link to a store)
obviously not available in the States!
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Is that a rebadged BOSE system?? I heard that system once, and once was more than enough.
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NO not the " line array" thingy on a stick but this one http://hkaudio.com/products.php?sid=11 -
- the amps being in the subs
& here
http://www.theaudioworksuk.com/index.php/active-pa-systems/hk-audio-cta-208-cta-118-contour-array-8000w-active-pa-system.html (sorry about link to a store)
obviously not available in the States!
I wasn't referring to the column array.. It's this one here I was referring to.. http://hkaudio.com/products.php?sid=11 I wouldn't care for one. They even look cheap.
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I wasn't referring to the column array.. It's this one here I was referring to.. http://hkaudio.com/products.php?sid=11 I wouldn't care for one. They even look cheap.
Well they can be classed as relatively cheap - was simply wondering if anyone had heard or used them.
... A drawback is that for each top you need a corresponding sub to power it.
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Best bang for the buck line-array system for a maximum of 800-1000 people which incorporate the following characteristics.
Powered Cabs
Budget 12-15k
Portability is high Priority
Clean Crisp mids & highs
Must have more of a "power punch" for bass rather than a vibratory shake.
Would prefer used for the purpose of depreciation savings but New is fine also.
Thanks for your help.
I think you would be best of trying to purchase a used KF650 rig.... Quite a few good deals on the market for such kit. And it is good kit with the right processing!
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I think you would be best of trying to purchase a used KF650 rig.... Quite a few good deals on the market for such kit. And it is good kit with the right processing!
Q: I need a NEW RED MINIVAN for my family of 6. My wife loves RED and my kids all want a NEW RED MINIVAN. Any suggestions?
A: You should buy a 1990 BLACK 2 seater TRUCK!
Why why why?
FYI - this thread has over 10,000 views because of Google searches on "buying a line-array". So it will probably be around for a while.
Almost all of these threads end with a suggestion to NOT buy a line-array, but a 15 year old used KF system.
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Q: I need a NEW RED MINIVAN for my family of 6. My wife loves RED and my kids all want a NEW RED MINIVAN. Any suggestions?
A: You should buy a 1990 BLACK 2 seater TRUCK!
Why why why?
FYI - this thread has over 10,000 views because of Google searches on "buying a line-array". So it will probably be around for a while.
Almost all of these threads end with a suggestion to NOT buy a line-array, but a 15 year old used KF system.
Yes, because in most of these situations the "line array" under consideration is a line in physical presentation only. With prospective purchasers who don't know or care about the differences between TVI or worse shit and a "real" line array, they and their customers will be better served with a conventional speaker system.
Tim Mc, certified curmudgeon, 30+ years of real world audio experience.
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1 - prospective purchasers who don't know or care about the differences between TVI or worse shit and a "real" line array
2 - they and their customers will be better served with a conventional speaker system.
Tim Mc
These are both assumptions, correct?
You and others seem to be saying "most purchasers don't know or care...." and "most their customers only need conventional speakers".
You can't have an industry that is almost 100% line-arrays at the big events, shows, festivals, concerts, (my perception) and then tell people that's not the way to go.
I just don't understand when someone ask a very specific question about what they want (line array, mid-sized, self powered, light weight, etc), it usually ends up whith a NO don't do that, buy old stuff that is not a line array, not mid-sized, not self powered, and not light weight.
I know most on the forums have many many years of real-world experience and have great opinions and suggestions. I just don't get the urge to talk people out of what they want/need.
Q: I need a new Mac laptop, any suggestions?
A: Trust me, I've been working on PC's for 30 years, you need a Window '95, 486, desktop. Oh, look, I've got one for sell in the back of the warehouse........
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These are both assumptions, correct?
You and others seem to be saying "most purchasers don't know or care...." and "most their customers only need conventional speakers".
You can't have an industry that is almost 100% line-arrays at the big events, shows, festivals, concerts, (my perception) and then tell people that's not the way to go.
I just don't understand when someone ask a very specific question about what they want (line array, mid-sized, self powered, light weight, etc), it usually ends up whith a NO don't do that, buy old stuff that is not a line array, not mid-sized, not self powered, and not light weight.
I know most on the forums have many many years of real-world experience and have great opinions and suggestions. I just don't get the urge to talk people out of what they want/need.
Q: I need a new Mac laptop, any suggestions?
A: Trust me, I've been working on PC's for 30 years, you need a Window '95, 486, desktop. Oh, look, I've got one for sell in the back of the warehouse........
I made an exception and opened this post to see your reply to a top pro.
Oh, well...back to the iggy list for you.
BTW, this is a 3 year old thread.
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These are both assumptions, correct?
You and others seem to be saying "most purchasers don't know or care...." and "most their customers only need conventional speakers".
You can't have an industry that is almost 100% line-arrays at the big events, shows, festivals, concerts, (my perception) and then tell people that's not the way to go.
I just don't understand when someone ask a very specific question about what they want (line array, mid-sized, self powered, light weight, etc), it usually ends up whith a NO don't do that, buy old stuff that is not a line array, not mid-sized, not self powered, and not light weight.
I know most on the forums have many many years of real-world experience and have great opinions and suggestions. I just don't get the urge to talk people out of what they want/need.
Q: I need a new Mac laptop, any suggestions?
A: Trust me, I've been working on PC's for 30 years, you need a Window '95, 486, desktop. Oh, look, I've got one for sell in the back of the warehouse........
Yeah, I know there is this Freudian Phallic Infatuation with line arrays. We own a couple or so ourselves. The reasons they are popular on tours is because you can put a metric shit-tonne of SPL in a pretty small amount of truck space. Tour accountants like that. Many of them can sound very good in the hands of an experienced system engineer, a few can be stunning but at a price tag that would add a couple of places to the left of the decimal point, then X2.
I hear a lot of speaker systems. I hear fewer conventional "point source" systems mis-deployed than I hear line arrays mis-deployed. The reasons? Line arrays are easier to screw up. Attention to detail is critical and for most small system owners in the lounge, having to fly or hang a line array is a deal-breaker. Having to buy enough boxes to make a 6 ft. line is a monetary deal breaker, unless they buy cheap shit that has no aiming/prediction software (and then they're flying blind).
Neither you nor anyone else is tasked with following my advice, frankly I don't care if you personally piss away your own funds, but after 3 decades + in the biz and having started EXACTLY like many of the Loungers (actually you guys have it better today) I can offer this advice: make good sound and offer quality service. Both are easier to do with point source speaker systems at this level.
Now I will join Mr. Rees in sending you to the ignore list.
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Yeah, I know there is this Freudian Phallic Infatuation with line arrays. We own a couple or so ourselves. The reasons they are popular on tours is because you can put a metric shit-tonne of SPL in a pretty small amount of truck space. Tour accountants like that. Many of them can sound very good in the hands of an experienced system engineer, a few can be stunning but at a price tag that would add a couple of places to the left of the decimal point, then X2.
I hear a lot of speaker systems. I hear fewer conventional "point source" systems mis-deployed than I hear line arrays mis-deployed. The reasons? Line arrays are easier to screw up. Attention to detail is critical and for most small system owners in the lounge, having to fly or hang a line array is a deal-breaker. Having to buy enough boxes to make a 6 ft. line is a monetary deal breaker, unless they buy cheap shit that has no aiming/prediction software (and then they're flying blind).
Neither you nor anyone else is tasked with following my advice, frankly I don't care if you personally piss away your own funds, but after 3 decades + in the biz and having started EXACTLY like many of the Loungers (actually you guys have it better today) I can offer this advice: make good sound and offer quality service. Both are easier to do with point source speaker systems at this level.
Now I will join Mr. Rees in sending you to the ignore list.
I know I am treading on hallowed ground here but I am going to take a shot they you may toss me a bone and I will go back to the lounge where I belong. Since this thread was revived I don't see any harm in asking the question.
There must be thousands of guys in my spot, we are at the point that we can afford to add some line array to our inventory, the cash is in pocket but we are scared to move based on all the horror stories. We are not trying to cover arena's or put 3rd day out of business (in Cleveland market).
Our bread and butter is KW112 over KW181's. Our QSC rep keeps telling us that if we add 8 KLA12's and 4 KLA181's with a set of small Genie lifts we can have one medium coverage system with 4 boxes a side and the ground stacked subs or two very good small venue systems when two KLA's are put on a pole over the subs. The idea is they will be have more even coverage and a modular inventory that scales. My businessman brain loves that.
What I am hearing from you is that that I am going to shoot the majority of the power over the heads of the patrons, bounce it off the wall and create and cacophony of garbage.
Clearly before we start writing checks I need to download the software and understand the coverage plots of those two configurations.
However as previously mentioned a bone of experience and wisdom would be highly appreciated.
Thanks...Scott
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I know I am treading on hallowed ground here but I am going to take a shot they you may toss me a bone and I will go back to the lounge where I belong. Since this thread was revived I don't see any harm in asking the question.
There must be thousands of guys in my spot, we are at the point that we can afford to add some line array to our inventory, the cash is in pocket but we are scared to move based on all the horror stories. We are not trying to cover arena's or put 3rd day out of business (in Cleveland market).
Well since this IS in the lounge... lol. And please, really, don't be afraid to ask questions. Sure, the "search" function will help narrow things for you, and potentially address a general question/answer set, but everyone's situation is always different, so if you have particulars that might be relevant, then sure, start a new thread (or jump on one like this) and see what the group wisdom comes up with!
The first thing to do is clarify on the nomenclature--
Line Array: A speaker system that allows for very specific pattern control, based on the length of the line, and the angles between boxes. Designed to allow you to "shape" the sound for the room/coverage area, producing even SPL (whether it be high SPL, or lower) through out the area. Typically designed with a minimum of 6 identical boxes per hang.
Constant Curvature Array, aka Baby Line Array: This is what the QSC KLA and the JBL VRX9XX series falls into. (I'll be referencing the VRX more, since I am a Harman house, and use those extensively.) Each box has a set degrees of coverage; 15° for the VRX and 18° for the QSC. Which means when you put, say, 4 boxes together, you have a vertical coverage of (box ° times # of boxes) -- 60° for VRX and 72° for QSC. (Notice what QSC did there? By increasing each box coverage by 3° you end up needing only 5 to cover 90° instead of 6 boxes of VRX!)
Our bread and butter is KW112 over KW181's. Our QSC rep keeps telling us that if we add 8 KLA12's and 4 KLA181's with a set of small Genie lifts we can have one medium coverage system with 4 boxes a side and the ground stacked subs or two very good small venue systems when two KLA's are put on a pole over the subs. The idea is they will be have more even coverage and a modular inventory that scales. My businessman brain loves that.
Your QSC rep is correct. (Although I might get the same number of subs as tops.) Being able to have two smaller rigs and couple them together when needed is an awesome ability. 2 VRX932LAP/918SP per side is my bread-and-butter "small festival" rig right now, and with a pair of ST180 lifts I can fly 3/side for slightly larger events if needed. Or if I need to do lighting-- being able to lift the lighting up into the air along with the PA is really helpful.
What I am hearing from you is that that I am going to shoot the majority of the power over the heads of the patrons, bounce it off the wall and create and cacophony of garbage.
Clearly before we start writing checks I need to download the software and understand the coverage plots of those two configurations.
The problem with deployment of line arrays is that they have to be done correctly. JBL, for example, has their Line Array Calculator. When used, and you punch all of the room's data into it, number of boxes, heights involved, it tells you how to arrange the inter-box angles to make the rig sound the best that it can. JBL has done all of the work for you! But there are many small-to-medium sized outfits (and probably more then a few large ones) that do not take the time and effort to follow the steps outlined by JBL (and other manufacturers) as to how to best deploy their speakers! This results in a shitty sounding rig, and artists putting "No VerTec" or whatever on their rider. This also led to JBL locking down the presets for VerTec, and you can't change the processing. "I'm A Sound Genius" system ops no longer could go futz with the settings!
The Constant Curvature arrays are a bit easier to deal with, but you still have to use some common sense in their deployment. Again, not knowing what QSC has for this, but JBL has prediction software for the VRX as well. Put in your room dimensions, where the speakers are, how many you're using, and you can get a good map of what sound levels you'll have through the room. Bonus points: Providing your client with a printout of this when bidding on an event. This shows that you care enough about the quality of their event that you've already done that step -- demonstrates how your system will be more successful then others!
I know I am treading on hallowed ground here but I am going to take a shot they you may toss me a bone and I will go back to the lounge where I belong. Since this thread was revived I don't see any harm in asking the question.
There must be thousands of guys in my spot, we are at the point that we can afford to add some line array to our inventory, the cash is in pocket but we are scared to move based on all the horror stories. We are not trying to cover arena's or put 3rd day out of business (in Cleveland market).
(snip)
However as previously mentioned a bone of experience and wisdom would be highly appreciated.
So where does this put us? The reason a lot of these threads are ending the way that they do is that the OP will give the background of their situation ("I'm a 75K/year grossing business, use JBL SRX for everything, but this ONE event I could use a Bad-Ass-Line-Array for. So I want to buy 4 boxes of VT4889 and fly those, 2/side, so I HAVE A LINE ARRAY!!!!" -- or even better, "I want to get into a Bad-Ass-Line-Array because EVERYONE ELSE HAS ONE AND I CAN HAS A CHEESEBURGER PLEASE?!? - but can only afford 2 boxes right now, so I am going to buy another box every two months until I have 16.") -- and based on the information provided by the OP, it becomes clear that they are not at the point where they should get a line array. The first example here? 2 boxes a side will sound like shit, and that's going to be a super expensive lesson. The other one? You can't do a line array on the Box-A-Month plan and expect success. Then what happens-- the person has a shitty sounding system, and they're not going to be in business long enough to ever complete the purchase. You gotta go full hog at once, and Tim will tell you-- what is it, the Unicorn of Expanding The Business? In order to reach "the next level," take everything you have ever spent, business inception date to present, and plan on spending all of that over again, ALL AT ONCE!
That is why these threads end the way they do- the literally hundreds of years of experience, and hundreds of thousands of shows-- the wisdom of the group recognizes the folly of an OP wanting to get a line array with which to expand, and instead suggests the next logical course of action- buy a nice trap rig (ground stacked) that will be easier to deploy (and make sound good!) and will be rider friendly. KLA? Probably not friendly for a couple thousand people, but KF850s? Sure!
tl;dr: The KLA rig will definitely allow you to step up your game, but it's not a true line array, and if you encounter A-List riders, wouldn't fly for them at all. And you have to consider the gear and labor needed to fly them-- which is qhy your rep is suggesting a couple small Genie lifts. Lots of people around here have the ST20 and ST24s, though, so it might be one of those things of getting a bit more capacity then you need for the moment, so you have them available when you *do* grow your company larger!
Good luck--
Ray
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I know I am treading on hallowed ground here but I am going to take a shot they you may toss me a bone and I will go back to the lounge where I belong. Since this thread was revived I don't see any harm in asking the question.
There must be thousands of guys in my spot, we are at the point that we can afford to add some line array to our inventory, the cash is in pocket but we are scared to move based on all the horror stories. We are not trying to cover arena's or put 3rd day out of business (in Cleveland market).
Our bread and butter is KW112 over KW181's. Our QSC rep keeps telling us that if we add 8 KLA12's and 4 KLA181's with a set of small Genie lifts we can have one medium coverage system with 4 boxes a side and the ground stacked subs or two very good small venue systems when two KLA's are put on a pole over the subs. The idea is they will be have more even coverage and a modular inventory that scales. My businessman brain loves that.
What I am hearing from you is that that I am going to shoot the majority of the power over the heads of the patrons, bounce it off the wall and create and cacophony of garbage.
Clearly before we start writing checks I need to download the software and understand the coverage plots of those two configurations.
However as previously mentioned a bone of experience and wisdom would be highly appreciated.
Thanks...Scott
Hi Scott-
I had a nice reply started last night while sitting in the s.r. power vault at our downtown arena (see thread about new venue/power in the Classic LAB) but the browser on my tablet locked up and the "copy to clipboard" failed. Oh well...
Now I see Ray A. has done a very good job of mind reading :).
I don't have any hands-on experience with the QSC but have mixed on the VRX. I think constant curvature arrays do their best work when a venue is more vertical than deep. If you do tall rooms with short-ish (<90ft) throws I think you'll like a C.C. array because it will require very little fussing and finesse. It's possible to make the VRX behave a bit more like a line array but that requires a high degree of granularity in the powering and processing... one of those deals where, if you have DSP/amps already, it might make sense but if you don't you'll spend a lot of cash trying to make a C.C. array into something that it's not.
So the real story of C.C. arrays is that they don't really scale up to cover larger audiences unless the audience is 'scaling up', vertically. JBL says the VRX is suited for audiences of up to 1000 or so (geometry dependent, methinks) and I've heard VRX used for an audience larger than that (2, 2.5x) and while it didn't die trying, it sounded like it was being pushed very very hard (because it was). The system made it through the show but the band & promoter were not happy with the results. Not my rig, not my gig (I was a stage hand on that show), but it confirmed to me that JBL was probably right on the mark regarding what the VRX is capable of.
I've been down the road of buying gear and operating it right of the edge of it's life, only to have it fail prematurely because of the stress I put on it. Depending on genre and SPL expectations you might get a long life from a KLA/VRX type of rig (presuming it's otherwise the right rig for the gig) or you might just make it past the warranty expiration.
Moving on, it's not that you'll be shooting over the heads of the audience or painting the ceiling (common sense *should* tell you to not do that, but we've seen the online pictures of very dubious deployments), but rather that a _prospective purchaser_ should learn to use the coverage/prediction/aiming software for each system under consideration and determine if that system appears to do what they need, or not. If a system doesn't have either a stand-alone program or EASE FocusŪ data, you should immediately dismiss the product. The software/data is an intrinsic part of the system, just like the hanging hardware.
Hanging... yes, you must. Putting a pair of KLA/VRX on a stand does this- gives you a roughly 100° x 40° box that costs $3600. Take a good, hard look at what you can buy for that amount - Fulcrum, VUE, JBL Venue Precision, others - and they will sound stunning. Really. They won't transform into a C.C. array, but they'll sound better, maybe get louder, and require little more thought in deployment beyond pointing them at the audience... but I digress. If you do more than 2, they need height and that means lifts of some kind. How high? Use the software. It won't tell you a trim height, but you'll be able to make changes and see the results. There's a certain amount of 'lather, rinse & repeat' involved until you get a feel for a system, but you can look at what happens if you raise or lower the rig by 4 or 5 feet and change the tilt of the bumper/array frame/hanging bar; these two are interactive and also affect inter-box angles in line arrays... At any rate, you'll need lifts sufficiently robust to support the load, represented by their manufacturer to be suitable for the circumstances in which you use them. If you have to support >200lbs lifts get expensive really fast.
There ain't no cheap road to safely done good sound. There are ways that are less expensive but less means some compromise, somewhere. It's up to the system owner to decide what audio compromises can be made and still have happy clients; it's also up to the owner to decide how many times to re-spend his investment to achieve similar, lateral results. From a business standpoint that's a bad thing to do. For a given capability you hopefully spend only once... If you're considering KLA to do the same jobs you're already doing, with the thinking that it will scale up and allow you to get new work, the speculation is on the new work; the accountant in me sees you replacing a marketable, working rig with newer gear without an increase in income or decrease in expenses.
Finally, infrastructure... cases, transport, storage & logistics, cabling & cable protection, lifts/hoists/other support, the hopefully inevitable expansion of mics, stands, DIs, electrical distribution... all come with growing a new rig. I estimate that for every dollar we spent on PA speakers and amps, we spent another $0.35 on infrastructure. Yeah, we're more industrial scale than most Lounge operators but I suspect that the ratio is pretty close, only "on what it's spent" is different.
Ray's recollection of my "unicorn of growth" is pretty close. Jay Barracato coined the metric "3dB$" You can read about it here: https://soundforums.net/entries/460-The-Next-Level-the-Unicorn-of-the-production-business
As I mentioned up-thread, I've been in the biz for 30+ years. It is not necessary for anyone to repeat my mistakes. 8) Been there, done that, dunno what happened to the shirt... ;) But the biggest challenge of being in the audio business is making a profit at it... Take some business classes, specifically general accounting and especially cost accounting. Accounting and the analysis of your business numbers should be a prime criteria in making business decisions (or you'll find yourself supporting a hobby). Trust me. I nearly went broke learning this lesson. It is not necessary to repeat my mistake... wait, there's an echo in here... here... here......
Have fun, good luck.
Tim Mc
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Well since this IS in the lounge... lol. And please, really, don't be afraid to ask questions. Sure, the "search" function will help narrow things for you, and potentially address a general question/answer set, but everyone's situation is always different, so if you have particulars that might be relevant, then sure, start a new thread (or jump on one like this) and see what the group wisdom comes up with!
The first thing to do is clarify on the nomenclature--
Line Array: A speaker system that allows for very specific pattern control, based on the length of the line, and the angles between boxes. Designed to allow you to "shape" the sound for the room/coverage area, producing even SPL (whether it be high SPL, or lower) through out the area. Typically designed with a minimum of 6 identical boxes per hang.
Constant Curvature Array, aka Baby Line Array: This is what the QSC KLA and the JBL VRX9XX series falls into. (I'll be referencing the VRX more, since I am a Harman house, and use those extensively.) Each box has a set degrees of coverage; 15° for the VRX and 18° for the QSC. Which means when you put, say, 4 boxes together, you have a vertical coverage of (box ° times # of boxes) -- 60° for VRX and 72° for QSC. (Notice what QSC did there? By increasing each box coverage by 3° you end up needing only 5 to cover 90° instead of 6 boxes of VRX!)
Your QSC rep is correct. (Although I might get the same number of subs as tops.) Being able to have two smaller rigs and couple them together when needed is an awesome ability. 2 VRX932LAP/918SP per side is my bread-and-butter "small festival" rig right now, and with a pair of ST180 lifts I can fly 3/side for slightly larger events if needed. Or if I need to do lighting-- being able to lift the lighting up into the air along with the PA is really helpful.
The problem with deployment of line arrays is that they have to be done correctly. JBL, for example, has their Line Array Calculator. When used, and you punch all of the room's data into it, number of boxes, heights involved, it tells you how to arrange the inter-box angles to make the rig sound the best that it can. JBL has done all of the work for you! But there are many small-to-medium sized outfits (and probably more then a few large ones) that do not take the time and effort to follow the steps outlined by JBL (and other manufacturers) as to how to best deploy their speakers! This results in a shitty sounding rig, and artists putting "No VerTec" or whatever on their rider. This also led to JBL locking down the presets for VerTec, and you can't change the processing. "I'm A Sound Genius" system ops no longer could go futz with the settings!
The Constant Curvature arrays are a bit easier to deal with, but you still have to use some common sense in their deployment. Again, not knowing what QSC has for this, but JBL has prediction software for the VRX as well. Put in your room dimensions, where the speakers are, how many you're using, and you can get a good map of what sound levels you'll have through the room. Bonus points: Providing your client with a printout of this when bidding on an event. This shows that you care enough about the quality of their event that you've already done that step -- demonstrates how your system will be more successful then others!
So where does this put us? The reason a lot of these threads are ending the way that they do is that the OP will give the background of their situation ("I'm a 75K/year grossing business, use JBL SRX for everything, but this ONE event I could use a Bad-Ass-Line-Array for. So I want to buy 4 boxes of VT4889 and fly those, 2/side, so I HAVE A LINE ARRAY!!!!" -- or even better, "I want to get into a Bad-Ass-Line-Array because EVERYONE ELSE HAS ONE AND I CAN HAS A CHEESEBURGER PLEASE?!? - but can only afford 2 boxes right now, so I am going to buy another box every two months until I have 16.") -- and based on the information provided by the OP, it becomes clear that they are not at the point where they should get a line array. The first example here? 2 boxes a side will sound like shit, and that's going to be a super expensive lesson. The other one? You can't do a line array on the Box-A-Month plan and expect success. Then what happens-- the person has a shitty sounding system, and they're not going to be in business long enough to ever complete the purchase. You gotta go full hog at once, and Tim will tell you-- what is it, the Unicorn of Expanding The Business? In order to reach "the next level," take everything you have ever spent, business inception date to present, and plan on spending all of that over again, ALL AT ONCE!
That is why these threads end the way they do- the literally hundreds of years of experience, and hundreds of thousands of shows-- the wisdom of the group recognizes the folly of an OP wanting to get a line array with which to expand, and instead suggests the next logical course of action- buy a nice trap rig (ground stacked) that will be easier to deploy (and make sound good!) and will be rider friendly. KLA? Probably not friendly for a couple thousand people, but KF850s? Sure!
tl;dr: The KLA rig will definitely allow you to step up your game, but it's not a true line array, and if you encounter A-List riders, wouldn't fly for them at all. And you have to consider the gear and labor needed to fly them-- which is qhy your rep is suggesting a couple small Genie lifts. Lots of people around here have the ST20 and ST24s, though, so it might be one of those things of getting a bit more capacity then you need for the moment, so you have them available when you *do* grow your company larger!
Good luck--
Ray
Ray you hit the nail on the head. This is exactly what I thought I was buying but I have been hearing the expert opinions for years. The great thing is my other hat is IT, and my IT company had been around many years so capital (smartly spent) is not an issue. 15k is hardly going to cut it.
I planned on getting larger lifts than needed and I might start with 12 boxes, that's another thread. I never see us doing A-list riders. That is not what we do. We would partner with someone to do that. It's too crowded a space to enter and very capital intensive. Would much rather pay someone else to do it, still have our name on it and guarantee the outcome.
So back to the line array. The QSC is simply chosen because our partners have them, interchangeable inventory and staff training.
I also do not need much prodding to buy more sub cabinets and 2/2 makes sense. even with the threaded poles though I am going to powder coat some rings and put them on the subs so we can lash down the tops neatly.
Thanks again.
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Hi Scott-
I had a nice reply started last night while sitting in the s.r. power vault at our downtown arena (see thread about new venue/power in the Classic LAB) but the browser on my tablet locked up and the "copy to clipboard" failed. Oh well...
Now I see Ray A. has done a very good job of mind reading :).
I don't have any hands-on experience with the QSC but have mixed on the VRX. I think constant curvature arrays do their best work when a venue is more vertical than deep. If you do tall rooms with short-ish (<90ft) throws I think you'll like a C.C. array because it will require very little fussing and finesse. It's possible to make the VRX behave a bit more like a line array but that requires a high degree of granularity in the powering and processing... one of those deals where, if you have DSP/amps already, it might make sense but if you don't you'll spend a lot of cash trying to make a C.C. array into something that it's not.
So the real story of C.C. arrays is that they don't really scale up to cover larger audiences unless the audience is 'scaling up', vertically. JBL says the VRX is suited for audiences of up to 1000 or so (geometry dependent, methinks) and I've heard VRX used for an audience larger than that (2, 2.5x) and while it didn't die trying, it sounded like it was being pushed very very hard (because it was). The system made it through the show but the band & promoter were not happy with the results. Not my rig, not my gig (I was a stage hand on that show), but it confirmed to me that JBL was probably right on the mark regarding what the VRX is capable of.
I've been down the road of buying gear and operating it right of the edge of it's life, only to have it fail prematurely because of the stress I put on it. Depending on genre and SPL expectations you might get a long life from a KLA/VRX type of rig (presuming it's otherwise the right rig for the gig) or you might just make it past the warranty expiration.
Moving on, it's not that you'll be shooting over the heads of the audience or painting the ceiling (common sense *should* tell you to not do that, but we've seen the online pictures of very dubious deployments), but rather that a _prospective purchaser_ should learn to use the coverage/prediction/aiming software for each system under consideration and determine if that system appears to do what they need, or not. If a system doesn't have either a stand-alone program or EASE FocusŪ data, you should immediately dismiss the product. The software/data is an intrinsic part of the system, just like the hanging hardware.
Hanging... yes, you must. Putting a pair of KLA/VRX on a stand does this- gives you a roughly 100° x 40° box that costs $3600. Take a good, hard look at what you can buy for that amount - Fulcrum, VUE, JBL Venue Precision, others - and they will sound stunning. Really. They won't transform into a C.C. array, but they'll sound better, maybe get louder, and require little more thought in deployment beyond pointing them at the audience... but I digress. If you do more than 2, they need height and that means lifts of some kind. How high? Use the software. It won't tell you a trim height, but you'll be able to make changes and see the results. There's a certain amount of 'lather, rinse & repeat' involved until you get a feel for a system, but you can look at what happens if you raise or lower the rig by 4 or 5 feet and change the tilt of the bumper/array frame/hanging bar; these two are interactive and also affect inter-box angles in line arrays... At any rate, you'll need lifts sufficiently robust to support the load, represented by their manufacturer to be suitable for the circumstances in which you use them. If you have to support >200lbs lifts get expensive really fast.
There ain't no cheap road to safely done good sound. There are ways that are less expensive but less means some compromise, somewhere. It's up to the system owner to decide what audio compromises can be made and still have happy clients; it's also up to the owner to decide how many times to re-spend his investment to achieve similar, lateral results. From a business standpoint that's a bad thing to do. For a given capability you hopefully spend only once... If you're considering KLA to do the same jobs you're already doing, with the thinking that it will scale up and allow you to get new work, the speculation is on the new work; the accountant in me sees you replacing a marketable, working rig with newer gear without an increase in income or decrease in expenses.
Finally, infrastructure... cases, transport, storage & logistics, cabling & cable protection, lifts/hoists/other support, the hopefully inevitable expansion of mics, stands, DIs, electrical distribution... all come with growing a new rig. I estimate that for every dollar we spent on PA speakers and amps, we spent another $0.35 on infrastructure. Yeah, we're more industrial scale than most Lounge operators but I suspect that the ratio is pretty close, only "on what it's spent" is different.
Ray's recollection of my "unicorn of growth" is pretty close. Jay Barracato coined the metric "3dB$" You can read about it here: https://soundforums.net/entries/460-The-Next-Level-the-Unicorn-of-the-production-business
As I mentioned up-thread, I've been in the biz for 30+ years. It is not necessary for anyone to repeat my mistakes. 8) Been there, done that, dunno what happened to the shirt... ;) But the biggest challenge of being in the audio business is making a profit at it... Take some business classes, specifically general accounting and especially cost accounting. Accounting and the analysis of your business numbers should be a prime criteria in making business decisions (or you'll find yourself supporting a hobby). Trust me. I nearly went broke learning this lesson. It is not necessary to repeat my mistake... wait, there's an echo in here... here... here......
Have fun, good luck.
Tim Mc
Tim, thanks for the reply and you are head on. As far as the capital, they are about twice the investment as the trap's over the tops KWA series. Still, I would rather do this than step up to SRX that isn't going to fit my model.
The QSC are powered, have great software and support. They make sense for where we are.
I have been handing business over any time we stepped in the Vertec area so that will come back in house. I also have the luxury of time to let the business gestate. This type of organic growth is not overnight. I can't imagine being under the pressure to learn the gear, push it right to it's limits and make the payment/payroll.
I really appreciate the considered comments. You guys see the number of views you get, this advice will help so many in this spot. I lurked for 10 years without a login.
On that note I am glad I joined because I also think I have something to give back at this point to the forums.
Enjoy the rest of your Sunday.
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Now I see Ray A. has done a very good job of mind reading :).
Have fun, good luck.
Tim Mc
... best damn compliment I think I've ever received on here......
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Tim, thanks for the reply and you are head on. As far as the capital, they are about twice the investment as the trap's over the tops KWA series. Still, I would rather do this than step up to SRX that isn't going to fit my model.
The QSC are powered, have great software and support. They make sense for where we are.
I have been handing business over any time we stepped in the Vertec area so that will come back in house. I also have the luxury of time to let the business gestate. This type of organic growth is not overnight. I can't imagine being under the pressure to learn the gear, push it right to it's limits and make the payment/payroll.
I really appreciate the considered comments. You guys see the number of views you get, this advice will help so many in this spot. I lurked for 10 years without a login.
On that note I am glad I joined because I also think I have something to give back at this point to the forums.
Enjoy the rest of your Sunday.
Thanks, Scott. You've got a much better grip on things than we typically see here.
The gear and techniques we have available today are so much better than what we had when I started... it's a great time to be in audio. :)
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I'll throw my 2 cents in here. If you ask a bunch of sound guys who aren't responsible for running a profitable business what speaker to buy, it's going to be a different answer than the owners of profitable small and mid sized sound companies.
In regards to the VRX type boxes, in my experience sound guys talk about how useless the box is, how harsh the tone is, not a line array, etc. The sound company owner raves about how they have paid for themselves over and over.
If it's the right tool for you (even with 2 boxes a side) and will make you money and the client happy, then sounds good to me. We are a service business.
(To be clear, as long as it's the right tool for the job. I know that's a large gray area with lots of room to wrestle. )
- Tony Williams
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I'll throw my 2 cents in here. If you ask a bunch of sound guys who aren't responsible for running a profitable business what speaker to buy, it's going to be a different answer than the owners of profitable small and mid sized sound companies.
- Tony Williams
Well, if it's a touring engineer, who is working with a band, and they (the band) are making millions of dollars a year, they're going to have their preferences-- and that would be the box that allows them (when properly deployed, powered and processed) to make their band (their boss) sound as good as possible. They need the reliability and consistency that comes from spec'ing certain brands and models. So yeah, they are going to be pretty insistent on their favorites.
In regards to the VRX type boxes, in my experience sound guys talk about how useless the box is, how harsh the tone is, not a line array, etc. The sound company owner raves about how they have paid for themselves over and over.
If it's the right tool for you (even with 2 boxes a side) and will make you money and the client happy, then sounds good to me. We are a service business.
I'm on both sides of the fence- I like how it sounds (to my admittedly still not that well trained ear), I understand and respect its features (and limitations!) - and my boxes are paid for, and continue to make me money.
(To be clear, as long as it's the right tool for the job. I know that's a large gray area with lots of room to wrestle. )
- Tony Williams
I am glad, of course, that I now have enough of an inventory that I can use the Right Tool For The Job, as opposed to making one system fit multiple scenarios. That's why, on the front page of my website (http://www.kelcema.com), I list my three main options- VRX, SRX and VerTec.
-Ray
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I'll throw my 2 cents in here. If you ask a bunch of sound guys who aren't responsible for running a profitable business what speaker to buy, it's going to be a different answer than the owners of profitable small and mid sized sound companies.
In regards to the VRX type boxes, in my experience sound guys talk about how useless the box is, how harsh the tone is, not a line array, etc. The sound company owner raves about how they have paid for themselves over and over.
If it's the right tool for you (even with 2 boxes a side) and will make you money and the client happy, then sounds good to me. We are a service business.
(To be clear, as long as it's the right tool for the job. I know that's a large gray area with lots of room to wrestle. )
- Tony Williams
Yep. I think VRX/KLA have their place, and even then there are audibly equivalent products for less total investment.
OTOH, if clients want to repeatedly give me their money for a particular product, we'll buy it. Having inventory of gear that customers want to have on their events is prudent, even if we don't care for a particular item or model ourselves.
If it's the wrong product from the gig, my job is to make the best possible presentation of the shit sandwich the client is paying for. Most days I'm SoundGuy, but sometimes I'm "Chef de le merde."
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Having been around for just a while makes it much easier for me to strip off all of the crap and quite often look at sound (Or anything else for that matter) in the most basic of ways This often confuses people who think in terms of complex solutions and allows them to second guess my capabilities. This is an example of the many threads which contains replies from those who I could or would never second guess, and others who are making noise just to be heard.
The truth be told 99% of the time I read and just don't post a reply, or I might just post a basic reply, or I might reply with an off hand comment. Now I'm replying to a thread that should never have included 90% of the detail it now includes, none of which give the OP specific answer to his original question, "Any one got any opinions on the HK Audi Contour active line array systems?" and the follow up question by Jason Finnigan.
I don't know how many times it needs to be said that the use, ownership, purchase of a line array/CC array will be predicated by the ability to use same in the venue and for the job being paid for by the customer.
Forget all the math, costs, suspension needs, power needs, expense, schooling and other requirements. All that need be known is that line arrays and CC arrays are designed for a specific purpose and that unless you must meet the requirements of that specific purpose questioning the need for an array to work a crowd of 1-2K people is generally a question asked by people who 1) Don't have a clue. 2) Don't have a clue and want to sound like they do, or 3) Don't have a clue.
For those of you still reading and understand be patient while I simplify my response for those who don't have a clue.
Q1: Will a very good EAW, JBL, etc. trap system do the job properly?
A=YES: You don't need a line array.
A=NO: Check your wallet, capabilities, business plan, and future needs.
Q: Will a CC array generate more business?
A: NO, a CC array is a tool be to be used in those venues and for those events where that particular tool will work best.
Q: If I buy a few JBL, Meyer, V-DOSC cabinets am I capable of providing for larger gigs, am I now "one of the gang", and will my business grow?
A: NO, you're an idiot with a full "Good Housekeeping" seal of approval.
Q: If I own an expandable, flexible, large trap system and have been turning down requests to provide for large indoor and outdoor concerts or events should I consider the purchase of an array based system? I have the business plan and funding in place. I am also willing to take the time to attend training. I also have the manpower and logistics available to support the system properly in my region.
A: You've done well. Run the numbers, good luck.
OP, I've listened to the system you question a few times. I was not impressed and firmly believe a good trap system will do a better job.
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Having been around for just a while makes it much easier for me to strip off all of the crap and quite often look at sound (Or anything else for that matter) in the most basic of ways This often confuses people who think in terms of complex solutions and allows them to second guess my capabilities. This is an example of the many threads which contains replies from those who I could or would never second guess, and others who are making noise just to be heard.
The truth be told 99% of the time I read and just don't post a reply, or I might just post a basic reply, or I might reply with an off hand comment. Now I'm replying to a thread that should never have included 90% of the detail it now includes, none of which give the OP specific answer to his original question, "Any one got any opinions on the HK Audi Contour active line array systems?" and the follow up question by Jason Finnigan.
I don't know how many times it needs to be said that the use, ownership, purchase of a line array/CC array will be predicated by the ability to use same in the venue and for the job being paid for by the customer.
Forget all the math, costs, suspension needs, power needs, expense, schooling and other requirements. All that need be known is that line arrays and CC arrays are designed for a specific purpose and that unless you must meet the requirements of that specific purpose questioning the need for an array to work a crowd of 1-2K people is generally a question asked by people who 1) Don't have a clue. 2) Don't have a clue and want to sound like they do, or 3) Don't have a clue.
For those of you still reading and understand be patient while I simplify my response for those who don't have a clue.
Q1: Will a very good EAW, JBL, etc. trap system do the job properly?
A=YES: You don't need a line array.
A=NO: Check your wallet, capabilities, business plan, and future needs.
Q: Will a CC array generate more business?
A: NO, a CC array is a tool be to be used in those venues and for those events where that particular tool will work best.
Q: If I buy a few JBL, Meyer, V-DOSC cabinets am I capable of providing for larger gigs, am I now "one of the gang", and will my business grow?
A: NO, you're an idiot with a full "Good Housekeeping" seal of approval.
Q: If I own an expandable, flexible, large trap system and have been turning down requests to provide for large indoor and outdoor concerts or events should I consider the purchase of an array based system? I have the business plan and funding in place. I am also willing to take the time to attend training. I also have the manpower and logistics available to support the system properly in my region.
A: You've done well. Run the numbers, good luck.
OP, I've listened to the system you question a few times. I was not impressed and firmly believe a good trap system will do a better job.
Well stated.
I would argue that the LARGE majority of people who want a "line array" can't even give you a good reason why. Except they want "line array".
As if that term (or type of system) is somehow going to magically make it sound better. In most cases-unless used properly (and most people don't have a clue how it work-how it should be used-what the limitations are etc) it will sound worse than a decent "point source" system.
They want it because it is "popular" and somehow think that they are all the same.
Probably the same mentality that thinks that if you add a compressor or gate or other "toy" to the system-it will somehow be "better".
NOT unless used properly-which most are not.
Currently line arrays have their place in the market-but I would argue that in probably 99% (give or take just a little) of the cases where they are used-a good point source system would outperform them at a much lower cost.
Before you use ANY tool-you have to be sure to use the RIGHT tool.
A socket set is a good tool. But in a lot of cases an old fashioned wrench will work better-but not in all cases.
The proper tool for the job-but unfortunately most people don't even know what the job really is :( or what it would take to do it right.
They just want to jump on the "popular" wagon.
Mark my words. By the end of this decade-you will see less and less line arrays being used and a trend back to good point source systems. Cheaper-easier to use-sound better and so forth.
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Well, if it's a touring engineer, who is working with a band, and they (the band) are making millions of dollars a year, they're going to have their preferences-- and that would be the box that allows them (when properly deployed, powered and processed) to make their band (their boss) sound as good as possible. They need the reliability and consistency that comes from spec'ing certain brands and models. So yeah, they are going to be pretty insistent on their favorites.
Since this is in the lounge, I AssUMe that we are not talking about large touring systems. I know you know that, and I agree that rider requirements at some point come into play. A larger company still needs to purchase a system that does a certain job and go out enough to make money.
- Tony Williams
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There are no line arrays specific to the lounge and therefor nothing can be assumed unless you assume a rider will be required and then find out is not. Make no assumptions, have no fear.
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Well, if it's a touring engineer, who is working with a band, and they (the band) are making millions of dollars a year, they're going to have their preferences-- and that would be the box that allows them (when properly deployed, powered and processed) to make their band (their boss) sound as good as possible. They need the reliability and consistency that comes from spec'ing certain brands and models. So yeah, they are going to be pretty insistent on their favorites.
I'm on both sides of the fence- I like how it sounds (to my admittedly still not that well trained ear), I understand and respect its features (and limitations!) - and my boxes are paid for, and continue to make me money.
I am glad, of course, that I now have enough of an inventory that I can use the Right Tool For The Job, as opposed to making one system fit multiple scenarios. That's why, on the front page of my website (http://www.kelcema.com), I list my three main options- VRX, SRX and VerTec.
-Ray
Really like the website Ray, a nice well thought out inventory. I hope you don't mind if I borrow your fridge in a rack idea. That is simply a brilliant, "high touch" customer centric idea. Very fine work all around.
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Yep. I think VRX/KLA have their place, and even then there are audibly equivalent products for less total investment.
OTOH, if clients want to repeatedly give me their money for a particular product, we'll buy it. Having inventory of gear that customers want to have on their events is prudent, even if we don't care for a particular item or model ourselves.
If it's the wrong product from the gig, my job is to make the best possible presentation of the shit sandwich the client is paying for. Most days I'm SoundGuy, but sometimes I'm "Chef de le merde."
That's mierda as in La cabeza de mierda, not a compliment. Everything else makes sense. The real bottom line is they are going to sound better than the KLA's not as good as SRX's. When I sub them for the KLA's those folks are going to feel they got a lot for their dollar. When we fly them they will be the right speaker for the space. If I need to do something bigger I will sub out vertec (sticking with JBL but any top name) as they are going to want more console than the si performer 3 anyway.
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Well stated.
I would argue that the LARGE majority of people who want a "line array" can't even give you a good reason why. Except they want "line array".
As if that term (or type of system) is somehow going to magically make it sound better. In most cases-unless used properly (and most people don't have a clue how it work-how it should be used-what the limitations are etc) it will sound worse than a decent "point source" system.
They want it because it is "popular" and somehow think that they are all the same.
Probably the same mentality that thinks that if you add a compressor or gate or other "toy" to the system-it will somehow be "better".
NOT unless used properly-which most are not.
Currently line arrays have their place in the market-but I would argue that in probably 99% (give or take just a little) of the cases where they are used-a good point source system would outperform them at a much lower cost.
Before you use ANY tool-you have to be sure to use the RIGHT tool.
A socket set is a good tool. But in a lot of cases an old fashioned wrench will work better-but not in all cases.
The proper tool for the job-but unfortunately most people don't even know what the job really is :( or what it would take to do it right.
They just want to jump on the "popular" wagon.
Mark my words. By the end of this decade-you will see less and less line arrays being used and a trend back to good point source systems. Cheaper-easier to use-sound better and so forth.
Bob, I will say that I have twisted the OP and kept the thread over to talk about Vertec/KLA and maybe DB Audioteknic AL series (although list they cost more) I am sure there are others in the class.
I could not care less if it's a line array, a trap or shaped like a kazoo. What I am looking for is the downside in the so call modularity of these product lines. Will they scale from a sub/poll/2 stack for a 300 person club gig to a 1500 person political event where intelligibility is key? Unless I am missing something I can carry 3 or 4 SKU's for my entire loudspeaker inventory. That is smart business. I want to provide fine audio and good value. My personal technical preferences and emotions don't come into play. I am 50 not 15.
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Really like the website Ray, a nice well thought out inventory. I hope you don't mind if I borrow your fridge in a rack idea. That is simply a brilliant, "high touch" customer centric idea. Very fine work all around.
I am honored. :) It's more for my crew then it would be for the clients, but I've no problem handing an event organizer a nice, cold bottle of water or soda out of the fridge if they looked parched. Or a pack of smokes, which is funny cos *I* don't smoke, but I have guys who do-- and if we're on day two of a 3-day festival and someone is out of cigarettes, I want to be "that guy" who saves their day!
It started as a 16sp (extra deep) amp rack, then I realised a pile of RMX/PLX weighs like 200 pounds. Then it became an EQ rack, and I realised it was too deep for that. I think it spent a day as a cable drawer rack, then last winter I realised the RedBull fridge fit in it perfectly. Get one from your local bar.
-Ray
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I am honored. :) It's more for my crew then it would be for the clients, but I've no problem handing an event organizer a nice, cold bottle of water or soda out of the fridge if they looked parched. Or a pack of smokes, which is funny cos *I* don't smoke, but I have guys who do-- and if we're on day two of a 3-day festival and someone is out of cigarettes, I want to be "that guy" who saves their day!
It started as a 16sp (extra deep) amp rack, then I realised a pile of RMX/PLX weighs like 200 pounds. Then it became an EQ rack, and I realised it was too deep for that. I think it spent a day as a cable drawer rack, then last winter I realised the RedBull fridge fit in it perfectly. Get one from your local bar.
-Ray
We tend to be Monster drinkers here. They have cool countertop fridges too. It is surprising how much of a difference the little courtesies can make. In both of my business's my guys get tired of me telling them to do the neatest work, even when the customer or other vendors have not bothered, never leave trash on a customer site. If you don't know ask someone. You know the drill. Have a good week.
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I wanted to add some advice to someone reading this thread, that like me is torn if CC line arrays make sense for their applications or customers.
I downloaded Ease_Focus software from the QSC website then the manufacturer data from focus.afmg.eu
Modeling coverage is engrossing. The visual representation as you adjust the parameters was an eye opener. Understanding the difference in propagation between a given point source and line array is amazing. You will come away with a much better idea what you are going to get and what you will not!
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I wanted to add some advice to someone reading this thread, that like me is torn if CC line arrays make sense for their applications or customers.
I downloaded Ease_Focus software from the QSC website then the manufacturer data from focus.afmg.eu
Modeling coverage is engrossing. The visual representation as you adjust the parameters was an eye opener. Understanding the difference in propagation between a given point source and line array is amazing. You will come away with a much better idea what you are going to get and what you will not!
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!
You HAVE to get out an play with the gear. And even playing in models can give a great insight into what can and cannot be done and what happens when you do "this".
It is often NOT what you would think.
By playing around in models-it is much faster-you can look at a lot of results much easier-over a wider freq/coverage range than normal than you can simply by setting up the gear and walking around.
They can really help narrow down the possibilities.
Are they perfect-no-but they do deal with the theoretical possibilities of a particular setup. There are a lot of variables that the models do not take into account.
But they are a HUGE step forward.
And be sure to turn off smoothing (if possible) to get a better idea of what is really happening.
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Nearly any issue worth talking about (there are a few exceptions, of course), is such because there isn't always a clear cut answer for everyone in every situation.
Decision making logic for any substantial decision should be roughly as follows:
1. Am I a business, or am I a hobby/charitable organization/crazy person?
a. If not a business, do whatever the heck you want, because you make all the rules. -> GOTO END
b. If a business, will what you are looking into make you more money/save you time or cost/allow you to grow?
b1. no -> DON'T BUY IT. GOTO END
b2. Yes
b2a. Have you done a complete business plan to be sure of this - i.e. financing, depreciation, customer demand, competitive analysis?
b2a1. No -> GOTO START and really mean it this time.
b2a2. Yes
b2a2a. Have you evaluated all other reasonable options and determined that this is the best choice - i.e. allows
you to make the most money and/or save the most time?
b2a2a1. No -> Look more broadly; GOTO START
b2a2a2. Yes
b2a2a2a. Does this sound better than all other choices?
b2a2a2a1. Yes -> Buy it, you lucky dog.
b2a2a2a2. No -> Buy it anyway and remember that you are a business and not shopping for a home stereo.
There's a lot of good advice in the thread, as always, though there are some pitfalls on the side of the advice asker as well as the advice giver. People asking for advice frequently have tunnel vision, and/or suffer from at least partial self-deception as to their situation, due to dreams, wishes, lack of knowledge, inexperience, etc. Being willing to at least carefully consider the advice given is a sign of maturity, and will likely lead to success. Coming to the forum for validation of what you already have decided will usually lead to unhappiness - if you're not open to a different answer, you may as well not even ask the question; and you'll either be right, or you'll be able to learn your lesson without public humiliation.
People giving advice can occasionally suffer from tunnel vision too - assuming that everyone's situation and goals are the same as theirs. Some things are universally true - Ohm's law, death and taxes, etc. Which speaker system is correct for every person is not universally true.
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I wanted to add some advice to someone reading this thread, that like me is torn if CC line arrays make sense for their applications or customers.
I downloaded Ease_Focus software from the QSC website then the manufacturer data from focus.afmg.eu
Modeling coverage is engrossing. The visual representation as you adjust the parameters was an eye opener. Understanding the difference in propagation between a given point source and line array is amazing. You will come away with a much better idea what you are going to get and what you will not!
Thank you, thank you, thank you. This is what I try to get across in my posts. You've probably discovered that array physics isn't intuitive - that what we presume works a particular way, often does not.
Free software and a few hours can help keep one from making a poor purchase decision, and is why I categorically reject any "system" that doesn't have software and/or data for 3rd party software like EASE Focus.
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Nearly any issue worth talking about (there are a few exceptions, of course), is such because there isn't always a clear cut answer for everyone in every situation.
Decision making logic for any substantial decision should be roughly as follows:
1. Am I a business, or am I a hobby/charitable organization/crazy person?
a. If not a business, do whatever the heck you want, because you make all the rules. -> GOTO END
b. If a business, will what you are looking into make you more money/save you time or cost/allow you to grow?
b1. no -> DON'T BUY IT. GOTO END
b2. Yes
b2a. Have you done a complete business plan to be sure of this - i.e. financing, depreciation, customer demand, competitive analysis?
b2a1. No -> GOTO START and really mean it this time.
b2a2. Yes
b2a2a. Have you evaluated all other reasonable options and determined that this is the best choice - i.e. allows
you to make the most money and/or save the most time?
b2a2a1. No -> Look more broadly; GOTO START
b2a2a2. Yes
b2a2a2a. Does this sound better than all other choices?
b2a2a2a1. Yes -> Buy it, you lucky dog.
b2a2a2a2. No -> Buy it anyway and remember that you are a business and not shopping for a home stereo.
There's a lot of good advice in the thread, as always, though there are some pitfalls on the side of the advice asker as well as the advice giver. People asking for advice frequently have tunnel vision, and/or suffer from at least partial self-deception as to their situation, due to dreams, wishes, lack of knowledge, inexperience, etc. Being willing to at least carefully consider the advice given is a sign of maturity, and will likely lead to success. Coming to the forum for validation of what you already have decided will usually lead to unhappiness - if you're not open to a different answer, you may as well not even ask the question; and you'll either be right, or you'll be able to learn your lesson without public humiliation.
People giving advice can occasionally suffer from tunnel vision too - assuming that everyone's situation and goals are the same as theirs. Some things are universally true - Ohm's law, death and taxes, etc. Which speaker system is correct for every person is not universally true.
If I was not open to suggestion I would not be wasting your time. I am sure others don't think the same.
If I want validation I will go to my wife/dog/girlfriend etc.
The next step is to develop a decision matrix, weight technical vs. business variables.
It is worth pointing out that the winner may not be the "best" in what you feel is an important technical parameter. If it makes sense for me to stay a QSC shop then I need to know what kind of dog food they are putting in my bowl.
Thanks to everyone.
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If I was not open to suggestion I would not be wasting your time. I am sure others don't think the same.
If I want validation I will go to my wife/dog/girlfriend etc.
The next step is to develop a decision matrix, weight technical vs. business variables.
It is worth pointing out that the winner may not be the "best" in what you feel is an important technical parameter. If it makes sense for me to stay a QSC shop then I need to know what kind of dog food they are putting in my bowl.
Thanks to everyone.
My comments were general observations, not necessarily applicable to you. You have clearly shown initiative and desire to understand the whole situation; many others are unwilling.
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My comments were general observations, not necessarily applicable to you. You have clearly shown initiative and desire to understand the whole situation; many others are unwilling.
I know it wasn't about me, that was a meager attempt at humor. ;D